Stan "Tookie" Williams Clemency Hearing

[Trainsaw]

The co-founder of the crips is having his final clemency hearing next week (the 13th) do you think that he should be put to death or not?

I personally think because of the work he's done since in prision to stop gang violence he should have a life sentence acouple times over to make sure he dies in jail, but the man has gone out of his way to spread an anti-gang message, and been nominated for the peace prize 6 times.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/08/williams.execution.ap/index.html

[getupkid53]

I have to agree with you. Serving his sentence is more punishment than putting him to death. It's just a closure thing for the victim's family. I normally am borderline on the death penalty, but his actions have shown that he can contribute to society in a meaningful way, even from behind bars. I think that his anti-gang message and his contributions to children's lit is great, but I think that he can be an inspiration to other inmates too. I hope he doesn't die, but I'm almost positive he will.

[Cal Smith]

What work has he done to stop gangs beside the childrens books?

Honestly if you're going to have the death penalty than he's the candidate for it. Simply writing childrens books is not a resaon to comute a sentence.

[Cal Smith]

Also most of the people you have speaking against him being put to death are anti-death penalty. Meaning they'd feel the same way about anyone, rather than the good he's done.

[Trainsaw]

What work has he done to stop gangs beside the childrens books?

Honestly if you're going to have the death penalty than he's the candidate for it. Simply writing childrens books is not a resaon to comute a sentence.
Don't worry G.W. wrote him a letter commending him for his social activism so you can like him now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams

[siberianxkiss]

but Cal, Jamie Foxx says he's reformed!

seriously, the guy founded the bloodiest street gang still around and he murdered 4 people. gimme break.

[Trainsaw]

I understand he's done those things but the guy has tried to change his life, he's not asking to be let out of jail, he doesn't care if he spends the rest of his life in jail, he should be let to live for the things he's tried to do after being placed in jail, also its more economical and saves money to the state if they let him live his life in jail rather than being put to death

[Cal Smith]

Don't worry G.W. wrote him a letter commending him for his social activism so you can like him now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams

Of course it's good writing the childrens novels, but do you actually think that writing some childrens books alone should commute a death sentence?

[Cal Smith]

I understand he's done those things but the guy has tried to change his life, he's not asking to be let out of jail, he doesn't care if he spends the rest of his life in jail, he should be let to live for the things he's tried to do after being placed in jail, also its more economical and saves money to the state if they let him live his life in jail rather than being put to death

How has he tried to change his life? As far as I know all anyone has said is that he wrote some childrens books.

[Trainsaw]

He's spoke out against gang violence a number of times, tried to talk w/ members of gangs to straigthen out their lives and let them know its not a path they want to go down. That can't be said for many people on death row.

http://www.tookie.com/tookie_fact_sheet_10.18.05.pdf

the guy can only do so much through a prison cell with no money, but he is using his voice to speak out against gang violence.

[Cal Smith]

He's spoke out against gang violence a number of times, tried to talk w/ members of gangs to straigthen out their lives and let them know its not a path they want to go down. That can't be said for many people on death row.

From what I understand he hasn't denounced his membership in the crips, and he hasnt been a model prisoner according to the guards on duty. He's also unwilling to help police in regards to the crips because he doesnt want to be considered a "snitch".

Am I wrong about any of this?

[Trainsaw]

From what I understand he hasn't denounced his membership in the crips, and he hasnt been a model prisoner according to the guards on duty. He's also unwilling to help police in regards to the crips because he doesnt want to be considered a "snitch".

Am I wrong about any of this?
Did you read anything i posted?? He wasn't a model prisoner when he first went to prison, but as you can see the guy has changed much of his ways.

Its comical, half of the time people want to push the ideas of christianity (homosexual marriage is against family values) yet the other half of the time they like to say it should have nothing to do w/ the law (forgiveness and turning the other cheek), people should make up their minds.

[awdeetdeet]

Heres why he should be executed as scheduled:

-He has never admitted his guilt in the murders
-He has not given information that could help dismantle the crips

Its nice that he wrote those books, but that is not close to being enough. The guy was only charged with 4 murders but who knows how many people he is responsible for killing. Not to mention how many people the gang he created have killed. He is scum, and deserves what is comin to him.

[Trainsaw]

Heres why he should be executed as scheduled:

-He has never admitted his guilt in the murders
-He has not given information that could help dismantle the crips

Its nice that he wrote those books, but that is not close to being enough. The guy was only charged with 4 murders but who knows how many people he is responsible for killing. Not to mention how many people the gang he created have killed. He is scum, and deserves what is comin to him.

What does it hurt by having the guy serve the rest of his life in prision?? He's not going anywhere and he's sending a positive message to the youth not to follow as he did. People make mistakes, everyone does, some larger than others but the main idea in this is the guy is trying to make right out of the rest of the life he has. He's not asking to be let out, or to be forgiven.

[lucky_krystle]

Also most of the people you have speaking against him being put to death are anti-death penalty. Meaning they'd feel the same way about anyone, rather than the good he's done.

What work has he done to stop gangs beside the childrens books?

Honestly if you're going to have the death penalty than he's the candidate for it. Simply writing childrens books is not a resaon to comute a sentence.

I totally agree... just because he has written some books and done stuff from behind bars doesnt mean that his sentence should change. If thats the caase then every felon will try it! And I also agree that the protesters who are arguing this would do the same for anyone, almost. The only reason they are making their voices known on this one is for publicity reasons. Just the fact that this guy has written childrens books and has been nominated for some peace prizes or whatever, makes him a good candidate for the celebrities to support just for attention...

[lucky_krystle]

Heres why he should be executed as scheduled:

-He has never admitted his guilt in the murders
-He has not given information that could help dismantle the crips

Its nice that he wrote those books, but that is not close to being enough. The guy was only charged with 4 murders but who knows how many people he is responsible for killing. Not to mention how many people the gang he created have killed. He is scum, and deserves what is comin to him.

i concur.

[Trainsaw]

I totally agree... just because he has written some books and done stuff from behind bars doesnt mean that his sentence should change. If thats the caase then every felon will try it! And I also agree that the protesters who are arguing this would do the same for anyone, almost. The only reason they are making their voices known on this one is for publicity reasons. Just the fact that this guy has written childrens books and has been nominated for some peace prizes or whatever, makes him a good candidate for the celebrities to support just for attention...
most every felon goes through an appeal process

[YouMadeTheScene]

What does it hurt by having the guy serve the rest of his life in prision?? He's not going anywhere and he's sending a positive message to the youth not to follow as he did. People make mistakes, everyone does, some larger than others but the main idea in this is the guy is trying to make right out of the rest of the life he has. He's not asking to be let out, or to be forgiven.

exactly. they aren't asking to let the guy out. keep him behind bars, and let him continue his anti-gang work.

and to everyone saying 'yeah but he didn't let them know about the crips because he doesn't want to be a snitch.' Well if you were in jail. And there were countless number of crips also in jail with you, many probably not reformed., and if you ratted out their friends you have a good chance of shank in the neck...would you rat people out?

[Cal Smith]

Did you read anything i posted?? He wasn't a model prisoner when he first went to prison, but as you can see the guy has changed much of his ways.

As I can see? First, lets be honest in that neither one of us no for sure his true turnabout. You're just taking the word of those who wish to see his life spared. From what I understand even up till the present time he hasnt been a model prisoner. He's refused to cooperate in fears of being labeled a "snitch", and he's refused to denounce his membership to the gang.

Its comical, half of the time people want to push the ideas of christianity (homosexual marriage is against family values) yet the other half of the time they like to say it should have nothing to do w/ the law (forgiveness and turning the other cheek), people should make up their minds.

I've always straddled the fence on the death penalty, and have decided not to support it to be on the safe side. On the other hand, many Christians do support and rather than me tryign to explain the moral justification for it in the Bible you can read this website because it does 10x's a better job than I could.

http://www.gotquestions.org/death-penalty.html

[Dan Hollister]

OK guys, a couple MAJOR FLAWS in this.

1) Whether or not he even WROTE the books is in question. All his books are "co-authored" by Barbara Cottman. It's been presented that in reality she may have written them herself using his insight and celebrity. (Why would it take two people to write a children's book?)

2) The books don't matter anyway. Writing a book does not outweigh murdering four innocent people.

3) Here's another problem: HE ISN'T REFORMED! How do we know? Because HE STILL HASN'T EVEN ADMITTED HIS GUILT! He still says he's innocent! How can anyone believe he has changed when he still doesn't even admit to the crimes?

[YouMadeTheScene]

OK guys, a couple MAJOR FLAWS in this.

1) Whether or not he even WROTE the books is in question. All his books are "co-authored" by Barbara Cottman. It's been presented that in reality she may have written them herself using his insight and celebrity. (Why would it take two people to write a children's book?)

2) The books don't matter anyway. Writing a book does not outweigh murdering four innocent people.

3) Here's another problem: HE ISN'T REFORMED! How do we know? Because HE STILL HASN'T EVEN ADMITTED HIS GUILT! He still says he's innocent! How can anyone believe he has changed when he still doesn't even admit to the crimes?

maybe I have to much faith in the human race sometimes, and aside from the fact and its a big aside from the fact he is a prisoner...maybe he didn't kill the people he was convicted for? I mean there has to be a reason all these people are behind him trying to help him. I don't know again maybe I have to much faith.

[Cal Smith]

exactly. they aren't asking to let the guy out. keep him behind bars, and let him continue his anti-gang work.

and to everyone saying 'yeah but he didn't let them know about the crips because he doesn't want to be a snitch.' Well if you were in jail. And there were countless number of crips also in jail with you, many probably not reformed., and if you ratted out their friends you have a good chance of shank in the neck...would you rat people out?

Well if I truly had the overwhelming spiritual change like many want you to think of Tookie then yes, I'd do the "right" thing.

If I wanted to save my own neck then no I wouldnt, but then I'd question the conversion he went through.

[YouMadeTheScene]

Well if I truly had the overwhelming spiritual change like many want you to think of Tookie then yes, I'd do the "right" thing.

If I wanted to save my own neck then no I wouldnt, but then I'd question the conversion he went through.

I think that's a pretty bold statement. Just because someone in his situation has 'turned a new leaf' doesn't mean he is willing to risk his life. There is a huge gap between wanting to be a martyr and turning your life around and trying to spread a positive message.

[Cal Smith]

maybe I have to much faith in the human race sometimes, and aside from the fact and its a big aside from the fact he is a prisoner...maybe he didn't kill the people he was convicted for? I mean there has to be a reason all these people are behind him trying to help him. I don't know again maybe I have to much faith.

It's obvious why he has all these people behind him trying to help him. It's not becasue they don't think he's guilty (have you heard any of them argue this?). It's because they're anti-death penalty and this is a big publicity case to get there message out. It was the same with Carla Tucker here in Tx years back.

[Cal Smith]

I think that's a pretty bold statement. Just because someone in his situation has 'turned a new leaf' doesn't mean he is willing to risk his life. There is a huge gap between wanting to be a martyr and turning your life around and trying to spread a positive message.

He wouldnt be a martyr. It's just a fact that in his refusal to cooperate he's still putting other people lives in danger. I believe if he had a true turnaround he'd put his life (seeing has though he helped start the mess) in front of others lives just to not be labeled a snitch.

[YouMadeTheScene]

It's obvious why he has all these people behind him trying to help him. It's not becasue they don't think he's guilty (have you heard any of them argue this?). It's because they're anti-death penalty and this is a big publicity case to get there message out. It was the same with Carla Tucker here in Tx years back.

You don't think at all that maybe it is a little beyond just the death penalty? I mean there is an overwhelming amount of people who are against this.

[Cal Smith]

You don't think at all that maybe it is a little beyond just the death penalty? I mean there is an overwhelming amount of people who are against this.

Ask yourself why they're against it? Have you heard one of them argue his innocence? Do you really think someone like Ed Asner has studied the Tookie case and figure he's innocent of killing 4 people? I mean I can see one mistaken identity in a murder, but in different cases being wrong?

It's all about the anti-death penalty group, and like I said it was the same group here in Tx years back trying to save a lady who murder some people with an axe.

[YouMadeTheScene]

Ask yourself why they're against it? Have you heard one of them argue his innocence? Do you really think someone like Ed Asner has studied the Tookie case and figure he's innocent of killing 4 people? I mean I can see one mistaken identity in a murder, but in different cases being wrong?

It's all about the anti-death penalty group, and like I said it was the same group here in Tx years back trying to save a lady who murder some people with an axe.

To me it seems as if they feel he serves some kind of purpose in his anti-gang work. I think they feel he is reformed. I don't think its a matter of guilt or not I think its a matter of he fact that the man is supposedly changed has done good work recently and he serves to much of a purpose to be killed.

[YouMadeTheScene]

He wouldnt be a martyr. It's just a fact that in his refusal to cooperate he's still putting other people lives in danger. I believe if he had a true turnaround he'd put his life (seeing has though he helped start the mess) in front of others lives just to not be labeled a snitch.

I don't know. I mean I don't think just because you are a religous person or anything that it automatically means you shouldn't value your own life you know?

[Cal Smith]

To me it seems as if they feel he serves some kind of purpose in his anti-gang work. I think they feel he is reformed. I don't think its a matter of guilt or not I think its a matter of he fact that the man is supposedly changed has done good work recently and he serves to much of a purpose to be killed.

That's fine and a very fair argument. The other side of that argument being that he did kill 4 people for no reason and his death might (dont know cause i havent heard them say) bring closure to the families of the people he killed.

Honestly I dont think there's a wrong side in death penalty cases, just a disagreement.

[Justin_stacy]

That's fine and a very fair argument. The other side of that argument being that he did kill 4 people for no reason and his death might (dont know cause i havent heard them say) bring closure to the families of the people he killed.

Honestly I dont think there's a wrong side in death penalty cases, just a disagreement.

One of the biggest supporters he could have is the family of one of his murder victims. The Owens, they are feverishly opposed to the death penalty, but refuse to speak out for his life until he apologies to them for killing their son and brother.

Personally I find it hard to believe a man has grown or “turned a leaf” when he can’t apologies or ask forgiveness from those he’s wronged….

[theESCO]

Honestly, do you think any information this guy who's been in jail since the 80s would actually help bring down a gang like the crips today?


On a side note..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9e/Tookie.jpg/180px-Tookie.jpg

That's one bad mothafucka..

[i like guitars]

i dont think they should kill him but i have no sympathy for this man. i also got kind of angry when i watched the news and someone at a press hearing said something about this being racial issue .

[splitsecond]

If there is a law in place, and you break that law, and the penalty is death, you serve the penalty.

Period.

[noodledancer]

really i think this guy's cause has been taken up by people who are against the death penalty to gain public attention. i could understand if there was also some evidence that he might not be guilty of the murders, but there isn't. it's cool that he's been working to stop kids from going down the road he took, but that doesn't absolve him of his crimes.

kind of on a tangent, but i find it ridiculous that someone can be senteced to death, & still be sitting in jail 26 years later. why even have the death penalty?

[Trainsaw]

really i think this guy's cause has been taken up by people who are against the death penalty to gain public attention. i could understand if there was also some evidence that he might not be guilty of the murders, but there isn't. it's cool that he's been working to stop kids from going down the road he took, but that doesn't absolve him of his crimes.

kind of on a tangent, but i find it ridiculous that someone can be senteced to death, & still be sitting in jail 26 years later. why even have the death penalty?

Appeal process. Seeing as Cali has a huge debt it'd be in their best interest to drop the death penalty all together, it would save them a lot each year

[Cal Smith]

Appeal process. Seeing as Cali has a huge debt it'd be in their best interest to drop the death penalty all together, it would save them a lot each year

If you look at how many they execute and how much they would save with each execution, I'd guess it wouldn't even put a dent in the debt.

[lightcollapse]

fuck this guy. the crips have probably killed more than 400 people. he started them. i don't care if he's reformed, i don't care if he changed his opinion. he should die for what he did before he started writing childrens books.

and seriously, everybody knows he's guilty. if he can't apologize to the families, he is one sick motherfucker.

[Trainsaw]

If you look at how many they execute and how much they would save with each execution, I'd guess it wouldn't even put a dent in the debt.
might not put a dent but still saves money none the less

[Cal Smith]

might not put a dent but still saves money none the less

No doubt, but so would limiting their appeals. The argument to end death penalty based on cost compared to life in prison is not a strong one, or at least I wouldnt say so.

[Cal Smith]

Here's an article about the actual Nobel Prize nomination too.

By Eugene Volokh, a professor of law at UCLA Law School: Los Angeles Times
Published December 8, 2005


Many advocates of clemency for Stanley "Tookie" Williams note that he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize and the Nobel Prize in literature for his anti-gang work, which includes writing children's books. How could a convicted murderer and co-founder of the Crips, Los Angeles' infamous street gang, be nominated for such prizes?

According to Nobel Prize nominating rules, any "professor of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology" and any judge or national legislator in any country, among others, can nominate anyone for a Nobel Peace Prize. Past nominees have included Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro. Any "professor of literature [or] of linguistics," among others, can nominate anyone for a Nobel Prize in literature.

Naturally, many nominees have real merit. But being nominated by one or a few of the hundreds of thousands of eligible nominators is little evidence of such merit. This is especially so when the nominee is a source of controversy and when it may seem that nominating him may prevent his execution in California on Tuesday.

It would surely be helpful to readers if news stories mentioning Williams' nominations--or, for that matter, any Nobel peace or literature prize nominations--stressed how unselective the nomination process is.

We're used to prize nominations signifying relatively broad acclaim, as for an Oscar. When a nomination means nothing other than a recommendation from a professor (or even a few professors and a legislator), that should be made clear.

Besides, a convicted murderer's nominations for Nobel prizes shed little light on the complex question of whether he is sincerely contrite, whether he has done good deeds and whether his life should be spared.

[Jason Tate]

I feel that the death penalty is wrong, he's a douche bag that should rot in prison for the rest of his life. But there's no real reason to take his life ...

[itsjdiggity]

I feel that the death penalty is wrong, he's a douche bag that should rot in prison for the rest of his life. But there's no real reason to take his life ...

Yeah. I feel that using the death penalty makes us just as bad as he is.

[Trainsaw]

I feel that the death penalty is wrong, he's a douche bag that should rot in prison for the rest of his life. But there's no real reason to take his life ...
Pretty much the point i was trying to get across but people feel they should actually kill the guy

[FScott]

It costs more tax dollars to execute a prisoner with the numerous court appeals then it does to keep the inmate in prison for life.

I don't understand how a painless death can give a family a feeling of retribution rather then letting them suffer in a 5 x 9 cell.

[Trainsaw]

It costs more tax dollars to execute a prisoner with the numerous court appeals then it does to keep the inmate in prison for life.

I don't understand how a painless death can give a family a feeling of retribution rather then letting them suffer in a 5 x 9 cell.
Well what i don't really get is that people feel the need to execute someone to "heal the suffering" it doesn't heal anything at all execution was just a barbaric response to a barbaric crime and shouldn't be used in civilized times

[Cal Smith]

Well what i don't really get is that people feel the need to execute someone to "heal the suffering" it doesn't heal anything at all execution was just a barbaric response to a barbaric crime and shouldn't be used in civilized times

Some would argue with you that it's not civilized to put a man in a 9x5 cell for the rest of there life wiht no chance of getting out? Why do you think it's more civilized than something like lethal injection?

[FScott]

Considering the living conditions in most prisons today the inmates are treated quite civilized, many programs are set up for prisoners. Such as learning a trade, academic programs, athletics ect. Most will agrue that inmates are treated rather well.

[LeftWideOpen]

some of the people posting here have really frightened me with their lack of compassion or regard for another human being's life.

yes, the man took others lives and should be punished for it. but what is your justification for punishing him by committing the same crime you are punishing him for? what does it solve? what is the harm of letting him, or any individual, spend their life behind bars? he isnt a threat in prison. just because its legal in some states, does that mean its not a crime against humanity?

this issue is one where i will never understand the other side and i have hard time fathoming that i live in a country where others are so eager to put someone to death as a way of punishment. it's make larger issues we take on, like trying to liberate a country, lose their credibility. how can we demand liberty for others when we cant even practice it ourselves?

[noodledancer]

some of the people posting here have really frightened me with their lack of compassion or regard for another human being's life.

yes, the man took others lives and should be punished for it. but what is your justification for punishing him by committing the same crime you are punishing him for? what does it solve? what is the harm of letting him, or any individual, spend their life behind bars? he isnt a threat in prison. just because its legal in some states, does that mean its not a crime against humanity?

this issue is one where i will never understand the other side and i have hard time fathoming that i live in a country where others are so eager to put someone to death as a way of punishment. it's make larger issues we take on, like trying to liberate a country, lose their credibility. how can we demand liberty for others when we cant even practice it ourselves?
there probably shouldn't be a death penalty, just because executions aren't carried out very often, & there seems to be a good chunk of people in california who are against it. however, i feel that this case was just another person for anti-death penalty activists to rally around to get attention. it happens every time someone is about to be executed, whether or not there's a genuinely compelling reason to stay the execution.

as for compassion... the man murdered four people. where was his compassion? i personally have a hard time respecting the life of someone who shows no respect for others' lives, so i wouldn't classify the death penalty as a crime against humanity. at it's core, the death penalty is about revenge- we give the state the legal right to do what an individual (at least a law-abiding one) can't. if that's dissatisfying to you, work to change the law.

the last bit about liberty perplexes me. if we had total liberty, there would be no government, no laws, & certainly no prisons with people on death row.

[commatosa]

okay, I'm generally against the death penalty. BUT this man killed a family of 3 and a rival gang member. He was sentenced to death for those crimes. After that it doesn't matter what he does. Yeah he wrote some nice children's books while he was on death row, but do you honestly think that him writing those books somehow redeems him? He co-founded the fucking CRIPS. Jesus Christ. And plus, it's stupid to say that he should have gotten life in prison instead. Cause personally, I'd rather die then spend the rest of my life in prison. We all know that he wouldn't have ever been let out of prison. He would just rot away at the taxpayers' expense. He's probably a lot happier now anyway.

[FScott]

We all know that he wouldn't have ever been let out of prison. He would just rot away at the taxpayers' expense. He's probably a lot happier now anyway.

It costs more tax dollars for an execution with the court appeals then life in prison.

[jagseroni]

Is this all a moot point?

According to Wikipedia:

"On (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams)December 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams), 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams), Williams was executed via (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams)lethal injection amidst debate over the death penalty and whether his anti-gang advocacy in prison made for genuine atonement. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Williams)"