What Would You Do With 10 Hours to Live?

[Jason Tate]

Arnold has denied clemency (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/12/national/12-tookie.html?hp) for Crips founder "Tookie" Williams.

[Drew Beringer]

booooo Ahhhhhnold.

[Liltimmeo]

I've thought that he should be allowed to live. This whole story has made me rethink my stance on the death penalty a little bit, he is one of a kind tho so IDK

[sweetmik]

Tookie's been nominated for the nobel prize 5 fucking times. This is bullshit.

[SpaRta06]

Tookie's been nominated for the nobel prize 5 fucking times. This is bullshit.

That doesnt erase your past.

[Flags of Dawn]

The Moshzilla thread sure lasted a long time.

[Jason Tate]

That doesnt erase your past.
Does dying (killing him) erase the past either?

[apex]

That doesnt erase your past.

And killing him undoes all the bad things he's done.

[SpaRta06]

Does dying (killing him) erase the past either?


did I say it did? I made a general statement. Doing good doesnt erase doing bad.

[sweetmik]

That doesnt erase your past.
No it doesn't. But his trial was unjust.

A six foot tall black man, with an all white jury. And his sentence was sealed by one witness, when it was beaten out of him.

[Bucc4019]

word to that.

[Jason Tate]

did I say it did? I made a general statement. Doing good doesnt erase doing bad.
Nothing erases the past ... but there are ways to improve the future.

[Kif]

I think people forget that he created one of the most dangerous and notorious street gangs in history, and that he has killed people before. He should be given the death penalty in my opinion, regardless of how many celebrities get behind him and how many nobel prizes he's been nominated for.

[kallok]

If you haven't seen a movie called Dead Man Walking and are interested in the death penalty, you should see it.

[Punkdc]

No it doesn't. But his trial was unjust.

A six foot tall black man, with an all white jury. And his sentence was sealed by one witness, when it was beaten out of him.

Thats totally uncalled for. I dont agree with him dieing (I'm all for people suffering in jail for a life time rather then just getting a needle in the arm and falling asleep) but killing inocent people is just wrong. Who tells somebody to lie face down only to shoot somebody in the back. And he has started one of the biggest gangs and I've been to rap concerts where there have been shoot outs/fights due to this man. Anyone see the Boondocks last night about the rappers? I feel thats true about rap, but gangs are the real, scary as shit deal

[whitelines]

govenator ftw.

[frankpistol]

I would try to kill someone else so there would be a trial of some sort

[Jason Tate]

I think people forget that he created one of the most dangerous and notorious street gangs in history, and that he has killed people before. He should be given the death penalty in my opinion, regardless of how many celebrities get behind him and how many nobel prizes he's been nominated for.
No, it's not forgotten. At least not by me.

(Ps, I wish there was vocals with the picture in your signature..)

[theESCO]

this is a god damn shame.

[sweetmik]

I think people forget that he created one of the most dangerous and notorious street gangs in history, and that he has killed people before. He should be given the death penalty in my opinion, regardless of how many celebrities get behind him and how many nobel prizes he's been nominated for.

He's written children books to steer kids away from gangs. That doesn't abolish the gang or the fact he started it. But he's tried to reverse what he has done.

[abusedcat]

I don't think you guys realize that we all can be nominated for the nobel peace prize. you print out a form and fucking send it in.

[splitsecond]

Nothing erases the past ... but there are ways to improve the future.

Wouldn't one of those ways be to deter others from committing the same sort of horrific acts? I am sort of split on the death penalty personally, but I think by taking back punishment we dole out simply because a man has done good things since he was put in line for that punishment sends a pretty bad message.

[splitsecond]

I don't think you guys realize that we all can be nominated for the nobel peace prize. you print out a form and fucking send it in.

There is a certain limitation to who can nominate, but essentially, any professor can. And come on, we know how liberal and anti-death penalty most professors are.

[Tony]

I don't get this. It's a perfect example of the prison system working to its full potential. Not only was this guy "rehabilitated," he's actively worked to keep kids from making the same mistakes he did. He's not just rehabilitated, he's a changed man. He's been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. Yes, he committed some horrible acts in his past, but the fact that he's worked to keep kids from making those same life choices earns him the right to life...even if it is behind bars.

My opinion? Ahnold's doing this to try and regain some of his conservative base, who have grown increasingly displeased with the choices he's making (from what I've read, at least).

[splitsecond]

He's written children books to steer kids away from gangs. That doesn't abolish the gang or the fact he started it. But he's tried to reverse what he has done.

Magic Johnson stopped banging truckloads of women, but that doesnt change the fact that he has HIV.

There are consequences for your actions, and some actions are so severe and the consequences such that they cannot be taken back or fixed. This is one of them.

[GlassyLight]

He's right....the fact that he's been NOMINATED for the Nobel Peace prize doesn't mean shit.

From www.nobelprize.org:

In the case of the peace prize the following people may nominate:

* Members of national assemblies and governments of states
* Members of international courts
* University rectors
* Professors of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology
* Directors of peace research institutes and foreign policy institutes
* Persons who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize
* Board members of organisations who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize
* Active and former members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee
* Former advisers appointed by the Norwegian Nobel Institute


I could go get my sociology professor to nominate me and it would be valid. The man created an evil that has scarred not only his city, but people's view of his entire race. He has murdered people, probably more than he was convicted of. While I admire his attempts at reformation, this man deserves to die. (in my own opinion)

[Jason Tate]

Wouldn't one of those ways be to deter others from committing the same sort of horrific acts? I am sort of split on the death penalty personally, but I think by taking back punishment we dole out simply because a man has done good things since he was put in line for that punishment sends a pretty bad message.
In my opinion, if the death penalty worked as a deterrent, it would have deterred people already. I don't think that it has. The "click-switch" in someone's head that is hit before someone murders another is wired in a way that I don't see how their own death is of any real consequence to them. They're obviously not thinking clearly enough to think "if I get caught" ...

[sweetmik]

Magic Johnson stopped banging truckloads of women, but that doesnt change the fact that he has HIV.

There are consequences for your actions, and some actions are so severe and the consequences such that they cannot be taken back or fixed. This is one of them.

True, but I believe at least a fair trial this time around would ensure not putting a man behind bars for a crime he possibly didn't commit.

Every person in the US is entitled to a fair trial, and he didn't get one.

[IAMTHEcrowing]

No it doesn't. But his trial was unjust.

A six foot tall black man, with an all white jury. And his sentence was sealed by one witness, when it was beaten out of him.

Are you sure it was an all white jury? was that for the first murder he committed or the second....

this is a tough one...

[takingback70x7]

eye for an eye makes everyone blind

[The Coalition]

the guys done a lot of good, its too bad it had to take him being sentenced to death to do it.

and this guy pretty much represents exactly what the nobel prize was created for. alfred nobel created something he knew was going to do far more harm then good, and then wanted to counteract that with his peace prize.

[Jason Tate]

Magic Johnson stopped banging truckloads of women, but that doesnt change the fact that he has HIV.

There are consequences for your actions, and some actions are so severe and the consequences such that they cannot be taken back or fixed. This is one of them.
Actions have reactions, it's a basic law. But why have we as a society decided that the reaction must be to take vengeance? Has society not evolved to the point where we can choose another means of horrible punishment besides death? It just seems archaic and prehistoric to me ... I am in no way saying he doesn't deserve a fucking strict ass, pound me in the balls, punishment; I just don't see how his death is the right answer from a society that prides itself on its supposed evolutionary leaps.

[splitsecond]

In my opinion, if the death penalty worked as a deterrent, it would have deterred people already. I don't think that it has. The "click-switch" in someone's head that is hit before someone murders another is wired in a way that I don't see how their own death is of any real consequence to them. They're obviously not thinking clearly enough to think "if I get caught" ...

Well I agree to an extent, that it doesnt work as a deterrent for some people, it does work for other people. But deterrence is just one theory that can be argued in favor of the death penalty. Regardless of how well it does works, I dont like the message that would be sent if we renege on punishment for some reason other than error in the legal system.

[splitsecond]

True, but I believe at least a fair trial this time around would ensure not putting a man behind bars for a crime he possibly didn't commit.

Every person in the US is entitled to a fair trial, and he didn't get one.

Well I think multiple appeals courts have disagreed with you there, and I tend to put faith in the appeals process (although I dont trust juries).

[sweetmik]

the guys done a lot of good, its too bad it had to take him being sentenced to death to do it.

and this guy pretty much represents exactly what the nobel prize was created for. alfred nobel created something he knew was going to do far more harm then good, and then wanted to counteract that with his peace prize.

Nice point about Alfred Nobel. For those of you who don't know, Alfred Nobel invented dynamite.

[LostSymphonies]

I don't see why people are getting so bent out of shape over one person, who has caused the deaths of NUMEROUS others, being put to death. I have no sympathy for anyone who takes the life of an INNOCENT, this man is not an innocent and shouldn't be given the luxury of life.

[The Coalition]

Magic Johnson stopped banging truckloads of women, but that doesnt change the fact that he has HIV.

"If Magic Johnson got a cure for AIDS, and all the broke motherf$%^&#s passed away, you telling me if my mommas in the NBA, right now she would be ok?"

[Jason Tate]

Well I agree to an extent, that it doesnt work as a deterrent for some people, it does work for other people. But deterrence is just one theory that can be argued in favor of the death penalty. Regardless of how well it does works, I dont like the message that would be sent if we renege on punishment for some reason other than error in the legal system.
And that's where I think the basic flaw is .. if we never had that punishment to begin with, we wouldn't have to "renege" on anything at all.

[Cal Smith]

Tookie's been nominated for the nobel prize 5 fucking times. This is bullshit.

anyone can be nominated for the nobel peace prize, ask hitler and castro

[minusthejosh]

i think that the governator is just trying to be the super conservative guy and not allowing clemency. he's thinking about re-election and not another person's life.

[circasurvivor]

i don't know if any of you smart kids know that it costs soooooo much more money for we the tax payers to keep people in jail for life. we are the ones paying for it. where do you think all the moeny comes from? and everyone desvers a FAIR trial. which would allow for someone to have the oppurtunity to be free. also life is not fair.

[The Coalition]

I don't see why people are getting so bent out of shape over one person, who has caused the deaths of NUMEROUS others, being put to death. I have no sympathy for anyone who takes the life of an INNOCENT, this man is not an innocent and shouldn't be given the luxury of life.

life is not a luxury.

[splitsecond]

Actions have reactions, it's a basic law. But why have we as a society decided that the reaction must be to take vengeance? Has society not evolved to the point where we can choose another means of horrible punishment besides death? It just seems archaic and prehistoric to me ... I am in no way saying he doesn't deserve a fucking strict ass, pound me in the balls, punishment; I just don't see how his death is the right answer from a society that prides itself on its supposed evolutionary leaps.

Well we are just going to disagree here. I dont think that we need to evolve everything, and since we cant really punish this guy the way he probably deserves for starting a gang that has ruined the lives of multiple generations, we have to impose the harshest possible penalty.

[Jason Tate]

I don't see why people are getting so bent out of shape over one person, who has caused the deaths of NUMEROUS others, being put to death. I have no sympathy for anyone who takes the life of an INNOCENT, this man is not an innocent and shouldn't be given the luxury of life.
Being locked in a cell for the rest of your breathing-days is taking away the luxury of life, is it not?

[Cal Smith]

No it doesn't. But his trial was unjust.

A six foot tall black man, with an all white jury. And his sentence was sealed by one witness, when it was beaten out of him.

every court, and every judge that has looked at the case has held up his conviction, so you calling it unjust is quite unfounded.

[Jason Tate]

Well we are just going to disagree here. I dont think that we need to evolve everything, and since we cant really punish this guy the way he probably deserves for starting a gang that has ruined the lives of multiple generations, we have to impose the harshest possible penalty.
We don't have to, we choose to. That's what saddens me.

[last light]

good, i would have done the same. this guy killed people, ruined families, i dont care if he has turned his life around nothing is bringing back those people.

[Drew Beringer]

I don't know much about this case other than the fact he started the Crips, killed many people, but now is a changed man. I think he should not be killed, he should be allowed to live behind bars. Yes, his past is terrible, but what he is doing now is good. He has shown to be a good influence NOW with his anti-gang books and behavior. His good deeds now do not erase what he has done, but let him stay behind bars, let's not kill this man, he obviously has good in his heart and I say keep him alive to continue his good behavior and still inform children that gangs are bad and all that.

[Jason Tate]

i don't know if any of you smart kids know that it costs soooooo much more money for we the tax payers to keep people in jail for life. we are the ones paying for it. where do you think all the moeny comes from? and everyone desvers a FAIR trial. which would allow for someone to have the oppurtunity to be free. also life is not fair.
I've seen the exact opposite argued. It's never been completely proven either way ... in any of the readings I've done.

[Jason Tate]

good, i would have done the same. this guy killed people, ruined families, i dont care if he has turned his life around nothing is bringing back those people.
The last line is the exact truth, "nothing is bringing back those people" - so why must he die? Vengeance? Revenge? Closure? Satisfaction? It's easy to play arm-chair governator right now, and say what I would do - however, if I was ever in the place where a loved one of mine was murdered, I only hope (and pray) I'd have enough moral fiber to do what some of Tookie's victim's families are doing -- looking to forgive instead of avenge.

[Cal Smith]

Also Arnold has really gone up and beyond on this case, and I think it's pathetic you assume his choice is purely based on politics.

He allowed lawyers on both sides to come argue in front of him for an hour, and in the end he's upheld what every court has upheld for the past 24 years. I would hate to be in Arnolds place and am sure for anyone it was a difficult choice.

[j.enkelmann]

Technically he has only been through 3 appeals in 2 different courts all ran by white male and females that gained prominance 25 years ago when Tookie Williams committed these crimes. The simple fear of a wealthy, white, prominant person is the fear of gang violence and thugs that are beyond lawlessness. This was the preconceived thought of Williams after his crime, it could been any of us. His appeals attorneys never argued the fact that he committed the crime, they wanted to portray him as a reformed man who takes full and remorseful blame for starting the crypts. The nobel prize nominations were great but the real reason everyone is standing up for him is he has done so much in the way of speaking out against gang violence and helped reform gang members that have gone through the Cali. prison system.

Putting him to death does not bring those he killed back to life nor will it fill the viod left by the victims families (eventhough the families say it will). Keep him alive so he can help others who have errored on their own path of life.

[abusedcat]

It's not like this guy was forced to start this gang and kill people, it was his own decision. it's not like "well, i didn't think it would turn out like this" face it, he murdered people. it's not racist, and i'd fucking know, i have 3 judges and 5 lawers in my family. the systems not racist, and you're just trying to find a reason to blame the system. take some fucking responsibility.

[shatteredfist]

i don't know if any of you smart kids know that it costs soooooo much more money for we the tax payers to keep people in jail for life. .


I've heard this to be untrue, depending on numerous additional court appearances...
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7#financial%20facts

Personally, I don't believe he should be sentanced to death, seeing as he's reformed, and actually reaching out to children, trying to keep others from joining gangs. I agree with Tate, (which is rare) that the death penalty is barbaric, and seems so Roman-esque. I'd love to see the death penalty abolished, but I have a feeling it'll never happen in my lifetime.

[LostSymphonies]

Being locked in a cell for the rest of your breathing-days is taking away the luxury of life, is it not?

It's a well known fact that prisoners arn't necessarily roughing it in some prisons. Someone as high profile as him certainly is not. The fact is he stole the life out of people who didn't deserve to die, and it disgusts me to see people defending this guy.

And as for Arnold only doing this to prove that he is still conservative..if you read hte article this hasn't been done since 1967 clearly there has to be other reasons behind it.

I am a supporter of the death penalty simply because why should I have to pay taxes that eventually go to prisons to help keep the scum of this planet alive inside a cell? Why do you people defend those who take the lives of people who don't deserve to die?

Please don't give me the same old "you're killing too" remark back because that is just old. Explain to me why you are so willing to keep giving your well earned money towards those who wouldn't think twice about killing your loved ones?

[minusthejosh]

I don't know much about this case other than the fact he started the Crips, killed many people, but now is a changed man. I think he should not be killed, he should be allowed to live behind bars. Yes, his past is terrible, but what he is doing now is good. He has shown to be a good influence NOW with his anti-gang books and behavior. His good deeds now do not erase what he has done, but let him stay behind bars, let's not kill this man, he obviously has good in his heart and I say keep him alive to continue his good behavior and still inform children that gangs are bad and all that.

very well put drew. i agree 100%. i know that nothing can change the past or erase any of it, but just look at what he is doing now. he is trying to get kids away from gangs and get people away from that kind of lifestyle. i think he should be able to live because putting him to is just hurting what he could do in the long run.

[sellitforcaeish]

if this passed, anyone could get the idea that they could slaughter a shit load of people, as long as they decided to write some books and give some speechs about gang violence. the govenator is taking a stance to show this shit doesnt fly and that you cant do penance for stealing peoples lives, even though this guy is trying to do a good thing. maybe thats why they didnt kill him right away in 1981, so he can at least realize he messed up. thats what jail is for. killing someone might not erase their past but it gives them a god damn good reason not to do it in the first place.

[j.enkelmann]

Also Arnold has really gone up and beyond on this case, and I think it's pathetic you assume his choice is purely based on politics.

He allowed lawyers on both sides to come argue in front of him for an hour, and in the end he's upheld what every court has upheld for the past 24 years. I would hate to be in Arnolds place and am sure for anyone it was a difficult choice.


So a man's life should be left up to a half an hour of testimony in front of a Governor who has no legal background?

[Drew Beringer]

very well put drew. i agree 100%. i know that nothing can change the past or erase any of it, but just look at what he is doing now. he is trying to get kids away from gangs and get people away from that kind of lifestyle. i think he should be able to live because putting him to is just hurting what he could do in the long run.

Thanks for reading my post.

[LostSymphonies]

if this passed, anyone could get the idea that they could slaughter a shit load of people, as long as they decided to write some books and give some speechs about gang violence. the govenator is taking a stance to show this shit doesnt fly and that you cant do penance for stealing peoples lives, even though this guy is trying to do a good thing. maybe thats why they didnt kill him right away in 1981, so he can at least realize he messed up. thats what jail is for. killing someone might not erase their past but it gives them a god damn good reason not to do it in the first place.

well put, well put

[Cal Smith]

Also Arnold has really gone up and beyond on this case, and I think it's pathetic you assume his choice is purely based on politics.

He allowed lawyers on both sides to come argue in front of him for an hour, and in the end he's upheld what every court has upheld for the past 24 years. I would hate to be in Arnolds place and am sure for anyone it was a difficult choice.


So a man's life should be left up to a half an hour of testimony in front of a Governor who has no legal background?

No, his life has been left up to 24 years of appeals and all the courts and judges who have reviewed the case have found no reason for it to be over turned.

Using your own argument against you, do you think a man with no legal background should overturn what all other courts have held true?

[TJ.Wells]

Anyone who thinks this guy should be allowed to live is out of their fucking minds...he KILLED people. Does that not register with you?!?!

[Grybo]

this man deserves to die. (in my own opinion)
i understand that this website is based on peoples opinions, but i believe what you said is awful

[fredrico0012]

I think people should stop saying his trail was unfair because there are white people on the jury because that is a terrible argument.

And to people who argue he is reformed. If he hadn't recieved the death penalty he would do none of the stuff he is doing.

The guy is a cold hearted killer and deserves to die.

[j.enkelmann]

So once you have messed up its over, right? THere is absolutely, 100 percent, never in a million years is it possible that this man is reformed and genuinely sorry for his past. I wouldn't expect sympathy or even a review of the past from someone with George W Bush on their profile.

[Jason Tate]

if this passed, anyone could get the idea that they could slaughter a shit load of people, as long as they decided to write some books and give some speechs about gang violence. the govenator is taking a stance to show this shit doesnt fly and that you cant do penance for stealing peoples lives, even though this guy is trying to do a good thing. maybe thats why they didnt kill him right away in 1981, so he can at least realize he messed up. thats what jail is for. killing someone might not erase their past but it gives them a god damn good reason not to do it in the first place.
You act as if being in jail isn't a punishment and that the choice was between: killing him or putting him back on the streets as a free man. He's not getting away with anything, he's being severely punished.

[SePaMc]

this debate wouldn't be happening if we would just speed up the process of the death penalty...that is the biggest flaw. Seriously. 24 years. Still Alive. How much tax money is that? That is why we spend so many tax dollars on the death penalty, considering the average time a person waits to die is 12+ years.

[Jason Tate]

Anyone who thinks this guy should be allowed to live is out of their fucking minds...he KILLED people. Does that not register with you?!?!
No, that's exactly what registers with me. He killed people, I just feel that our answer should not be to do the same.

[Cal Smith]

So once you have messed up its over, right? THere is absolutely, 100 percent, never in a million years is it possible that this man is reformed and genuinely sorry for his past. I wouldn't expect sympathy or even a review of the past from someone with George W Bush on their profile.

He might be reformed. Hell if I know, but I'm smart enough not to assume he's reformed based on writing a couple of childrens books.

And actually if you knew anything about me you might know I dont support the death penalty, but I actually expect you to assume things like you did with Bush on my profile.

[Ruggiero2oo8]

no one has the right to kill someone.

[j.enkelmann]

You peolpe act like that is the only thing you pay taxes for. About 3/4 of ONE PERCENT go to the state's justice system. So by your own accord, since the drop-out rate of highschool nation wide is around 9 percent we should stop funding the Dept. of education because we have spent all those tax dollars on a kid for 12 years only to have him quit with a year to go until he graduates. Obviously those are wasted tax dollars.

[Jason Tate]

I think people should stop saying his trail was unfair because there are white people on the jury because that is a terrible argument.

And to people who argue he is reformed. If he hadn't recieved the death penalty he would do none of the stuff he is doing.

The guy is a cold hearted killer and deserves to die.
That's an interesting argument, that can't be backed up because we will never know. The truth is, I'm arguing this based on my belief that he DID murder these people, and DIDN'T change at all in prison.

[Conversations]

Anyone who thinks this guy should be allowed to live is out of their fucking minds...he KILLED people. Does that not register with you?!?!
So have hundreds of thousands of others in this country. Many of those people were never caught, many caught and never convicted, and many convicted and never killed. Stop fucking generalizing. He started the crips, we know this. He was a murderer, we know this. There are people in jail who have killed 3 times as many people, in much more heinous ways, yet they sit in prison. The only reason this man is being considered for murder is because of high profile he is, and because of what happened since the chain of events he began actually began.

The fact remains is that the death penalty operates on a case by case basis. One way to look at it is that it costs a hell of a lot of money to keep an inmate in a maximum secrurity prison for years on end. Around 30 grand, if you want specifics. Where does that money come from? Your fucking pocket. So do you want somebody who raped a 13 year old girl and shot her parents living off your salary? Do you want the unibomber living off your salary, eating 3 meals a day? Probably not. At the same time, somebody like Tookie, who has seen the grave error of his ways has done so much to stop what he so unfortunately set in motion. He's done everything a man in his position can possibly do to get kids away from the life that he was in. But he dies, and Joe blow who killed 4 people because his girlfriend left him and took the El Camino lives? That's some fucking bullshit.

You kids really need to educate yourselves before spouting off at the mouth with some retarded bullshit.

[truestar1015]

No one deserves to die for any action or crime. Granted he is a changed man who was up for a noble peace prize but still he murdered 4 people. Anyone should be punish for murdering another person, no matter who you are or what you have done after the crime. He doesn't deserve to die for the crimes. No one should.

[Total Silence]

Anyone who takes someone elses life should get what they did in return. I dont care who the fuck you are.

[fugitive_alien]

I read somewhere that he could possibly get his death penalty reduced to life imprisonment if he named names of members of the crips. But he doesn't want to "snitch". That still shows a gangmember mentality to me.

[Total Silence]

Anyone who thinks this guy should be allowed to live is out of their fucking minds...he KILLED people. Does that not register with you?!?!

Im totally with you. Some people are just plain retarded.

[Cal Smith]

I read somewhere that he could possibly get his death penalty reduced to life imprisonment if he named names of members of the crips. But he doesn't want to "snitch". That still shows a gangmember mentality to me.

I dont know if it would commute his sentence or not, but I do agree that if I wanted to start believing he was truly reformed I would have to believe he's willing to help end what he's started.

[fredrico0012]

We have many executions and North Carolina and I must say this is the first time that I've heard that a black man(actually ethnic person being excuted). All we have is white men getting excuted being killed.

I'm also curious what your guys position on abortion is because, argue if you disagree with me, but believing in the death penalty b/c you think the person has done is wrong but not believing in abortion becuase it kills a baby that has done nothing. But believing you should let a man(because we all know that we will never excute a women) live for killing a person(s) but should kill a innocent baby for not doing anything but living.

[resUrectMe617]

i am not going to begin to make any specific judgments here because i don't know enough about this situation specifcally to sound vaguely right. i am still unsure as to how i stand on the death penalty, there are just so many things to consider, so many different ways to look at a case..and killing someone is just such an extreme and final action to take. so bear in mind, i don't have an opinion on that either.

from what everyone else has said, it seems that he has tried to compensate for all of the damage that he has done in the past. and i will commend him for that; anyone who has the balls enough to realize their problem, and take the steps to rehabilitate themselves should receive some recognition and applause. but despite the fact that he is changing the world now, fixing the problems that he originally set in motion decades ago.... doesn't change what he did then, and the damage that he committed then. i mean, i would like to assume that had he never started the gang, all the killing that went on would never have happened. he set that in motion...and to this day gangs are still in existence, doing the violent things that the crips did. its not like this problem has gone away, and we can all breathe easy and say "oh thank god that's over, now he can teach kids and make sure it never happens again."

i am not necessarily saying that he deserves to die (because like i said earlier, i sway in neither direction on that issue), but i can somewhat see the reasons and the mindset of those that do support his execution and rejection of clemency.

[sweetmik]

We have many executions and North Carolina and I must say this is the first time that I've heard that a black man(actually ethnic person being excuted). All we have is white men getting excuted being killed.

I'm also curious what your guys position on abortion is because, argue if you disagree with me, but believing in the death penalty b/c you think the person has done is wrong but not believing in abortion becuase it kills a baby that has done nothing. But believing you should let a man(because we all know that we will never excute a women) live for killing a person(s) but should kill a innocent baby for not doing anything but living.

Women have been executed in the US.

[dretti]

How do you think the family of those he killed feel?
How do you think the families of those that have been killed by his notorious gang feel?
He still has ties.

[dretti]

I dont know if it would commute his sentence or not, but I do agree that if I wanted to start believing he was truly reformed I would have to believe he's willing to help end what he's started.

Exactly, he showed no cooperation to helping. So he made a fucking kiddie book, doesn't change what he did and still is a part of.

[GlobesandSoCo]

It's nice to see Arnold refuse the request...the man not only killed four people himself, but he's indirectly murdered a countless number of people (he did co-found the Crips after all).

[FASSWcore]

arnold, what a hard ass...i could take him

[rufiocardtime]

I swear...this liberal bullshit is ridiculous.

Consequences follow your actions just like night follows day. Capital punishment is a potential consequence for murdering other people. Capital punishment is a deterant only because it's a just consequence. So claiming that capital punishment is a deterant and since the "deterant" didn't deter him, we shouldn't use the same consequences...that is the most flawed logic ever.

Tate...your argument about forgiveness is absurd. Capital punishment is not about vengeance to a criminal, it's about justice. Mother Teresa made a similar argument one time, begging the government not to put a man to death. When asked why, she responded, "Forgiveness." So let's go with that argument...ok we forgive him for what he did, does that mean we can still keep him in jail the rest of his life? Well, no, because he's been forgiven for his actions. Then can we keep him in jail for let's say 20 years? Well, no because he's been forgiven. The reality is, if we use your concept of forgiveness, we couldn't keep the man in jail or give him any punishment. That argument is absurd. If we forgave every criminal in the country we would have killers walking around on the streets. That's not what forgiveness is and it's not our government's job to forgive people. Our governments job in this matter is to enforce the law. And I'm sorry to say that it seems more likely that liberals have this skewed view of the concept of forgiveness.

Let's also not forget that dying is not the worst thing that can happen to a man.

If a girlfriend of mine cheated on me, no matter how much I think she may be sorry for her actions and may be "rehabilitated" and might try to do great things, I'm still breaking up with that chick. I can still forgive her and we can still be cool. But that's the consequences: you cheat, you're out. We can be cool, but you're definitely not my girlfriend anymore. However, someone who has an unhealthy concept of forgiveness might just hang around forever while the lady keeps sleeping around with other dudes.

Don't you get the point?

[Isbu]

People argue that hes a changed man but do you think he would be a changed man if he didnt spend x amount of years in prison?

[shatteredfist]

It's nice to see Arnold refuse the request...the man not only killed four people himself, but he's indirectly murdered a countless number of people (he did co-found the Crips after all).

Founding the Crips doesn't mean he's killed every person the Crips have killed. He's had no influence on the people pulling the trigger, etc. He's only responsible for himself. Shouldn't that mean that the inventor of knives is indirectly responsible for people getting stabbed? The inventor of the automobile being indirectly resonsible for car accidents? If that rang true, than Philip Morrison should have been commited to the death penalty too, since he was a co-founder of the atomic bomb....

[fugitive_alien]

We have many executions and North Carolina and I must say this is the first time that I've heard that a black man(actually ethnic person being excuted). All we have is white men getting excuted being killed.

I'm also curious what your guys position on abortion is because, argue if you disagree with me, but believing in the death penalty b/c you think the person has done is wrong but not believing in abortion becuase it kills a baby that has done nothing. But believing you should let a man(because we all know that we will never excute a women) live for killing a person(s) but should kill a innocent baby for not doing anything but living.

Well abortions are a difficult issue to talk about. For instance you have to take into account the reasons for the abortion. It could be because the woman's life is in danger if she has birth. The church actually allows abortion in this instance. See the "doctrine of double effect" Also it is widely disputed when the foetus/baby actually becomes a person. At the quickening, viability etc etc. or whether it has the same rights as a fully autonomous person. Read some Peter Singer

The Case with Stanley Williams is that he has killed people without cause which is recognised by law as murder. Whether or not he should be executed because he has reformed is the issue. Personally i wouldn't class abortion and murder in the same category.

[sweetmik]

I swear...this liberal bullshit is ridiculous.

Consequences follow your actions just like night follows day. Capital punishment is a potential consequence for murdering other people. Capital punishment is a deterant only because it's a just consequence. So claiming that capital punishment is a deterant and since the "deterant" didn't deter him, we shouldn't use the same consequences...that is the most flawed logic ever.

Tate...your argument about forgiveness is absurd. Capital punishment is not about vengeance to a criminal, it's about justice. Mother Teresa made a similar argument one time, begging the government not to put a man to death. When asked why, she responded, "Forgiveness." So let's go with that argument...ok we forgive him for what he did, does that mean we can still keep him in jail the rest of his life? Well, no, because he's been forgiven for his actions. Then can we keep him in jail for let's say 20 years? Well, no because he's been forgiven. The reality is, if we use your concept of forgiveness, we couldn't keep the man in jail or give him any punishment. That argument is absurd. If we forgave every criminal in the country we would have killers walking around on the streets. That's not what forgiveness is and it's not our government's job to forgive people. Our governments job in this matter is to enforce the law. And I'm sorry to say that it seems more likely that liberals have this skewed view of the concept of forgiveness.

Let's also not forget that dying is not the worst thing that can happen to a man.

If a girlfriend of mine cheated on me, no matter how much I think she may be sorry for her actions and may be "rehabilitated" and might try to do great things, I'm still breaking up with that chick. I can still forgive her and we can still be cool. But that's the consequences: you cheat, you're out. We can be cool, but you're definitely not my girlfriend anymore. However, someone who has an unhealthy concept of forgiveness might just hang around forever while the lady keeps sleeping around with other dudes.

Don't you get the point?

Granting clemency doesn't grant innocence. A life sentence, without the possibility of parole is a big punishment.

If you really wanted people to suffer for what they've done, letting them stay in jail knowing they will never again enjoy the freedoms they once had. The death penalty relieves them of that pain, plus they get a feast of their choice as a last meal. Death, after a long period of incarceration without possibility of parole, is relief.

[goddamngourd]

i thought this thread would be a discussion of what we'd do with our last 10 hours, not a tired rehashing of death penalty debate.

i would get in a car and see how far i could get in 10 hours. or just go to sleep.

[rufiocardtime]

Granting clemency doesn't grant innocence. A life sentence, without the possibility of parole is a big punishment.

If you really wanted people to suffer for what they've done, letting them stay in jail knowing they will never again enjoy the freedoms they once had. The death penalty relieves them of that pain, plus they get a feast of their choice as a last meal. Death, after a long period of incarceration without possibility of parole, is relief.


Yeah, except he's proved that he's a reasonable threat to every other life on the planet. Once you've established that, a mature society realizes that those kinds of people have no place anywhere in the world. Plus, obviously he's more scared of death than a life in prison because he won't give up the identities of certain other gangmembers because he knows he'd still get killed, even in prison. The man should die.

[shtjames]

gnarliest dude ever. wow

[dartanian=gods]

is anyone really suprised by this?

[lildevotionalx]

It's a well known fact that prisoners arn't necessarily roughing it in some prisons. Someone as high profile as him certainly is not. The fact is he stole the life out of people who didn't deserve to die, and it disgusts me to see people defending this guy.

And as for Arnold only doing this to prove that he is still conservative..if you read hte article this hasn't been done since 1967 clearly there has to be other reasons behind it.

I am a supporter of the death penalty simply because why should I have to pay taxes that eventually go to prisons to help keep the scum of this planet alive inside a cell? Why do you people defend those who take the lives of people who don't deserve to die?

Please don't give me the same old "you're killing too" remark back because that is just old. Explain to me why you are so willing to keep giving your well earned money towards those who wouldn't think twice about killing your loved ones?
I agree with every single point you made.

I don't get this. It's a perfect example of the prison system working to its full potential. Not only was this guy "rehabilitated," he's actively worked to keep kids from making the same mistakes he did. He's not just rehabilitated, he's a changed man. He's been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. Yes, he committed some horrible acts in his past, but the fact that he's worked to keep kids from making those same life choices earns him the right to life...even if it is behind bars.
First of all, I don't think anyone has said this yet but is it not a possibility that he did these things (writing children's books etc.) in the spirits that it may in fact save his life? None of us know this man personally, he could damn well just be doing all of these things in regards to himself, not others. Admit it, this IS a possibility. Just because he wrote few books doesn't take back the fact that he killed people.

this debate wouldn't be happening if we would just speed up the process of the death penalty...that is the biggest flaw. Seriously. 24 years. Still Alive. How much tax money is that? That is why we spend so many tax dollars on the death penalty, considering the average time a person waits to die is 12+ years.
That's another reason why people are still willing to commit crimes. The system is flawed in these ways and until it is fixed, people are still going to be commiting crimes because there is no guarantee that if they are caught, there will be severe punishment.

In my opinion, if the death penalty worked as a deterrent, it would have deterred people already. I don't think that it has. The "click-switch" in someone's head that is hit before someone murders another is wired in a way that I don't see how their own death is of any real consequence to them. They're obviously not thinking clearly enough to think "if I get caught" ...
It's not working as a deterrent because things like this keep happening. If we never set down a strict enforcement, of course people are going to keep committing crimes. We need, as a country, to decide on set laws for punishment otherwise people are never going to deter from crimes with the thoughts in their heads that even if they murder someone and DO get caught, death may not be a possibility for them.

I don't see why people are getting so bent out of shape over one person, who has caused the deaths of NUMEROUS others, being put to death. I have no sympathy for anyone who takes the life of an INNOCENT, this man is not an innocent and shouldn't be given the luxury of life.
life is not a luxury.
Being locked in a cell for the rest of your breathing-days is taking away the luxury of life, is it not?
First of all, life may not always be a luxury but it damn well is a privilege. Anyone who abuses that right deserves to be punished. And, being locked in a cell for the rest of your lives is taking away some of the luxury's of life, but certainly not your privilege. And I say some luxurys because prison is not as bad as it could be. These men get fed well, can excercise regularly, watch tv, write, interact socially... they all get the basic needs to survive and in a healthy manner. Prison could be A LOT worse and it certainly isn't justice for a man who has killed four people and contributed to other numerous deaths.

The last line is the exact truth, "nothing is bringing back those people" - so why must he die? Vengeance? Revenge? Closure? Satisfaction? It's easy to play arm-chair governator right now, and say what I would do - however, if I was ever in the place where a loved one of mine was murdered, I only hope (and pray) I'd have enough moral fiber to do what some of Tookie's victim's families are doing -- looking to forgive instead of avenge.
You put yourself in those shoes and try to react in that manner. It won't happen. My aunt, in her early twenties, was murdered in her own apartment by a gang member for a fucking RADIO. Her life was taken for a RADIO. Yet the man did not recieve the death penalty. It makes me sick every single day to think that someone who killed another for a twenty dollar item is still alive, even if he may be in jail. You put yourself in my shoes, as a victim's family member and then try to "have enough moral fiber" in ya. C'mon man, get real, nothing is that easy and we all aren't that great of people. People need to shut the fuck up and stop talking about "the victim's families" like they're one of them. You don't know until you're really there and trust me, even if you think you know, your opinion will change immediately once it actually happens to you.

[Paul Tao]

capital punishment has never been a deterrant and never will be

[nicolerork]

People need to shut the fuck up and stop talking about "the victim's families" like they're one of them. You don't know until you're really there and trust me, even if you think you know, your opinion will change immediately once it actually happens to you.


Agreed!

[GlobesandSoCo]

Founding the Crips doesn't mean he's killed every person the Crips have killed. He's had no influence on the people pulling the trigger, etc. He's only responsible for himself. Shouldn't that mean that the inventor of knives is indirectly responsible for people getting stabbed? The inventor of the automobile being indirectly resonsible for car accidents? If that rang true, than Philip Morrison should have been commited to the death penalty too, since he was a co-founder of the atomic bomb....

He obviously hasn't DIRECTLY killed more than four people, because he's spent most of his adult life in jail. However, he INDIRECTLY has killed many more than that, due to the group he helped found. He didn't start a Boy Scout troup or anything here man, he helped start a STREET GANG. His teachings and beliefs (before being sent to prison for his crimes) most certainly influenced other gang members to commit similar crimes, and continue to do so to this day.

It's easy to say the inventor of the knife, bombs, etc should be treated the same way as this murderer, but that's just foolish and unfair. The knife was invented as a TOOL, and just so happened to be very good at killing animals and people. Likewise, the atomic bomb was supported by the most important people in the world, for their agenda, so the scientists and laborers who helped create it are not at fault. That would be like an employee at Enron going to jail for the crimes the big wigs at the company committed...

[End is Forever]

eye for an eye makes everyone blind
True. I can't condone any kind of murder, even if he has done the act to others.

[LPMagic]

The punishment fits the crime. I don't need his crimes to directly impact my family before I realize my previous statement.

- Jeff

[punkrockcasual]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/12/01/national/02prison184.1.jpg

[unwritten]

He should die, forget the hippy bullshit.

[starcrossdlovex]

If I knew I was going to be executed, I'd "turn my life around" too in hopes of getting a less harsh punishment.
I don't believe anything he did was genuine. So, I could go out & viciously murder innocent people as long as I wrote some books against it afterwards?

& if it was your mother or sibling who was murdered by this man, you'd be content to just let him sit in prison? Please don't say he'll be rotting in jail, cuase & he wouldn't be 'rotting", prisons aren't as bad as people make them out to be, especially not for people of a notorious status. It is not at all torturous.
He would not be suffering.

[tambo41187]

I saw that somone mentioned tax payers money above. It actually costs more to put people to death than it would to keep them in prison.

[LPMagic]

If I knew I was going to be executed, I'd "turn my life around" too in hopes of getting a less harsh punishment.
I don't believe anything he did was genuine. So, I could go out & viciously murder innocent people as long as I wrote some books against it afterwards?

& if it was your mother or sibling who was murdered by this man, you'd be content to just let him sit in prison? Please don't say he'll be rotting in jail, cuase & he wouldn't be 'rotting", prisons aren't as bad as people make them out to be, especially not for people of a notorious status. It is not at all torturous.
He would not be suffering.
Well said.

- Jeff

[lildevotionalx]

If I knew I was going to be executed, I'd "turn my life around" too in hopes of getting a less harsh punishment.
I don't believe anything he did was genuine. So, I could go out & viciously murder innocent people as long as I wrote some books against it afterwards?

& if it was your mother or sibling who was murdered by this man, you'd be content to just let him sit in prison? Please don't say he'll be rotting in jail, cuase & he wouldn't be 'rotting", prisons aren't as bad as people make them out to be, especially not for people of a notorious status. It is not at all torturous.
He would not be suffering.
Exactly my point above. Agreed.
I will never be content with the man who killed my aunt just simply sitting in prison for the rest of his life, it just doesn't happen that way.
This man killed four people, he deserves the punishment he was given.

[arbron_09]

No it doesn't. But his trial was unjust.

A six foot tall black man, with an all white jury. And his sentence was sealed by one witness, when it was beaten out of him.


ok so if an all black jury had found him innocent then that would have been a more unbiased desicion?

[alktrio]

the fact of the matter is that this man took human life. why should he be allowed to keep his own? why should he be allowed to enjoy life, however meager is life in jail might be, while those that he harmed had their time on this earth cut short? if i was a relative of those killed, i would not be content knowing that while my loved ones have been dead for over 20 years, this man lives every day, with enough luxeries to be able to write and publish childrens books, with his 5 nobel peace prize nominations hanging on his wall. good riddance i say

[smogs]

[QUOTE=sellitforcaeish]if this passed, anyone could get the idea that they could slaughter a shit load of people, as long as they decided to write some books and give some speechs about gang violence. QUOTE]


I was thinking that too.
But I've been reading everyones repsonses, and I partially agree he sould die, and partially agree he should just spend the rest of his life in jail.
It's a tough decision though.

[GAD_guy]

the death penalty is quite possibly the most absurd insititution in the entire western world.

[Trainsaw]

the whole situation is fucked up.

[Bd4eva]

he's should die for killing innocent people. end of story.

[Kyner]

I don't get this. It's a perfect example of the prison system working to its full potential. Not only was this guy "rehabilitated," he's actively worked to keep kids from making the same mistakes he did. He's not just rehabilitated, he's a changed man. He's been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. Yes, he committed some horrible acts in his past, but the fact that he's worked to keep kids from making those same life choices earns him the right to life...even if it is behind bars.

My opinion? Ahnold's doing this to try and regain some of his conservative base, who have grown increasingly displeased with the choices he's making (from what I've read, at least).

I couldn't agree more. It's all based on politics. Philosophically speaking, Arnold is sending the message that we are a retributivist society, completely backward looking. It appears that this is one of few men who has truly been rehabilitated. I was all for the death penalty before I studied philosophy. In my opinion, it makes no sense to use the death penalty as a deterrent effect. You honestly want me to believe that a gang member isn't going to shoot someone because in the back of his mind he is thinking that if he's caught, he's going to get the death penalty? A majority of the people on death row are poor, black men. Every day of their life is a struggle, and for gang members, they face their own possible death almost daily. The only purpose the death penalty serves is to ease the feeling of revenge and hatred that the victim's family and friends have. After appeals, the death penalty is more expensive than holding someone in prison for life. Personally, I think every person alive has done something they horribly regret in their life. This man seems to no longer be a danger to society, killing him is a crime. This is my humble opinion, go ahead and bash it if you want.

[Sureshot182]

it is tough to decide what to do when dealing with how to run a society. in my opinion, it is not a human's job to decide another human's fate. that is God's job. if it is being looked at in the respect that people will be scared of dying, so they won't commit crimes..that is ridiculous. i highly doubt any criminal is thinking "oh man, in 25 years after years of litigation and bs, i could die" when they are commiting a crime. i think punishment for criminals should be very strict, especially for violent crimes. it's just tough being on the receiving end of a criminal, it changes your views completely.

[sweetmik]

ok so if an all black jury had found him innocent then that would have been a more unbiased desicion?

If there had been an black and white jury, and they had found him guilty, then it would be fair. Totally missed it, dude.

[GAD_guy]

it is tough to decide what to do when dealing with how to run a society. in my opinion, it is not a human's job to decide another human's fate. that is God's job. if it is being looked at in the respect that people will be scared of dying, so they won't commit crimes..that is ridiculous. i highly doubt any criminal is thinking "oh man, in 25 years after years of litigation and bs, i could die" when they are commiting a crime. i think punishment for criminals should be very strict, especially for violent crimes. it's just tough being on the receiving end of a criminal, it changes your views completely.

not to mention....how the hell is killing people supposed to teach them that killing is wrong? utterly absurd.

[noodledancer]

Tookie's been nominated for the nobel prize 5 fucking times. This is bullshit.
cal posted an interesting article here (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=100504&page=3). sounds more like his nominations are bullshit.

if some hollywood notables hadn't jumped behind this guy, no one would even care.

[Kyner]

i don't know if any of you smart kids know that it costs soooooo much more money for we the tax payers to keep people in jail for life. we are the ones paying for it. where do you think all the moeny comes from? and everyone desvers a FAIR trial. which would allow for someone to have the oppurtunity to be free. also life is not fair.

Untrue. Do some research before you make a completely WRONG statement. Funny, this is how rumors and ignorance spread. There's automatic appeals for people sentenced to death, unless they wave it like McVeigh did. After appeals, the inmate sits on death row for an average stay of around 8 years I believe. Then there's the medical procedure to kill him. It's actually 6 times more expensive to kill someone than to keep them in prison. That's the last stats I've heard though.

For example, despite much evidence to the contrary, a large majority of Californians believes that the death penalty prevents murder by deterring potential killers. Similarly, a majority believes that the death penalty is cheaper than life in prison, despite the fact that this is clearly not so.

Last part taken from http://www.fclca.org/survey-dp89.html

[sweetmik]

cal posted an interesting article here (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=100504&page=3). sounds more like his nominations are bullshit.

if some hollywood notables hadn't jumped behind this guy, no one would even care.

I would still care. I read his books in middle school, and it made a lot of sense to stop what I was doing.

[GAD_guy]

Untrue. Do some research before you make a completely WRONG statement. Funny, this is how rumors and ignorance spread. There's automatic appeals for people sentenced to death, unless they wave it like McVeigh did. After appeals, the inmate sits on death row for an average stay of around 8 years I believe. Then there's the medical procedure to kill him. It's actually 6 times more expensive to kill someone than to keep them in prison. That's the last stats I've heard though.

For example, despite much evidence to the contrary, a large majority of Californians believes that the death penalty prevents murder by deterring potential killers. Similarly, a majority believes that the death penalty is cheaper than life in prison, despite the fact that this is clearly not so.

Last part taken from http://www.fclca.org/survey-dp89.html

yeah.....the money argument is totally invalid. it's now actually common knowledge among government officials that it costs more to put people to death than to keep them alive. in additition to the extended court and appeals fees, it costs millions just to actually kill them.

[Kyner]

this debate wouldn't be happening if we would just speed up the process of the death penalty...that is the biggest flaw. Seriously. 24 years. Still Alive. How much tax money is that? That is why we spend so many tax dollars on the death penalty, considering the average time a person waits to die is 12+ years.

That would be nice, except for the whole due process thing.

[lostromanticxx]

I have to agree with the death penalty. The man started a gang that killed people, he might be rehabiliated, but that gang still exsists and it's still out there killing people. He created something that may never go away. Well, now he should be punished for that. Innocent lives were taken away from people who didn't deserve it. So now, someone wants to take his even though he's crying out that he's a changed man and has all these celebrities on his side. He doesn't deserve a right to a new trial. I live in a town that has a gang. I know what it's like to be afraid to walk home late at night alone. I know how it feels to know friends that have been involved in gang violence and you know what, this man started one of the biggest gangs in the country. I see it fear that he dies for the mess he has created.

[TommyGunn]

In my opinion, if the death penalty worked as a deterrent, it would have deterred people already. I don't think that it has. The "click-switch" in someone's head that is hit before someone murders another is wired in a way that I don't see how their own death is of any real consequence to them. They're obviously not thinking clearly enough to think "if I get caught" ...

were you not just calling for the death of a murder suspect about 2 weeks ago? And this was a guy who had not even stood trial yet. I could be wrong, just wondering.

[GAD_guy]

I have to agree with the death penalty. The man started a gang that killed people, he might be rehabiliated, but that gang still exsists and it's still out there killing people. He created something that may never go away. Well, now he should be punished for that. Innocent lives were taken away from people who didn't deserve it. So now, someone wants to take his even though he's crying out that he's a changed man and has all these celebrities on his side. He doesn't deserve a right to a new trial. I live in a town that has a gang. I know what it's like to be afraid to walk home late at night alone. I know how it feels to know friends that have been involved in gang violence and you know what, this man started one of the biggest gangs in the country. I see it fear that he dies for the mess he has created.

he already is being punished with a life sentance (which in my opinion is WAY worse). what is killing him going to prove? is anyone going to come back to life? are gangs going to cease to exist? is peace going to overcome this whole nation? no! we will just lose a man who has seen the error of his ways and done valuable things to help our society. more importantly, though, is that one more life will have been unjustly taken by a body of people that do not have the right to decide who is worthy of life.

[TommyGunn]

George Bush is responnsible for WAY more innocent people dying than this guy. Maybe we could make this dude our next president? A lack of consideration for life seems to be a requirement of the job.

[HiMyNameIsYours]

That doesnt erase your past.
Look what Bush has done in his past...yet he is still our president.

[oceanblue]

Who are any of us to say someone should die? We are all human, we all make mistakes. Who are we to judge what is worse, the deth penalty is essentaly muder. The US is one of the very few first world countries that still uses this type of punishment.

[GAD_guy]

Who are any of us to say someone should die? We are all human, we all make mistakes. Who are we to judge what is worse, the deth penalty is essentaly muder. The US is one of the very few first world countries that still uses this type of punishment.

actually...the only one.

[lostromanticxx]

he already is being punished with a life sentance (which in my opinion is WAY worse). what is killing him going to prove? is anyone going to come back to life? are gangs going to cease to exist? is peace going to overcome this whole nation? no! we will just lose a man who has seen the error of his ways and done valuable things to help our society. more importantly, though, is that one more life will have been unjustly taken by a body of people that do not have the right to decide who is worthy of life.

Writing children's books doesn't help our society. Anyone can write a children's book. The man went to prison because he killed people and started a gang. He doesn't deserve redemption. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and you have yours and I have mine. I honestly don't give a shit he could write a million books in my eyes, he's still a God damn murderer and NOTHING can change that.

[GAD_guy]

Writing children's books doesn't help our society. Anyone can write a children's book. The man went to prison because he killed people and started a gang. He doesn't deserve redemption. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and you have yours and I have mine. I honestly don't give a shit he could write a million books in my eyes, he's still a God damn murderer and NOTHING can change that.

is murdering him going to change it?

[brandnew423]

the man is solely responsible for the death of 3 people and his gang is responsible for god knows how many...i dont care that he reformed himself, he shouldnt be granted clemency

[YourFaceIsFunny]

You do realize most other countries that have the death penalty are countries we consider to be barbaric and/or are less evolved etc.

To name a few:
Afghanistan
Cuba
Egypt
Iran
Iraq
North & South Korea

There are a bunch more island countries, and African countries.

Just listen to what you're argument, "He killed someone, so he deserves to be killed." What hipocrisy.

Sure all the things he's done does not erase the fact that he created a deadly gang, and killed people himself, but shruging off the things that he has done to try to improve, shows that it doesn't matter that someone's mindset has changed, and they have realized what they have done and tried to improve their character.

With that said, he still deserves to suffer, and killing him would be an easy way out. He has to live with the fact that he has taken the lives of people every second of his life.

Sure sitting in jail they get three meals a day, a bed type thing to sleep on etc., but mentally I doubt it's very much fun.

[anamericangod]

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to say that I'm a criminal justice major. Don't wanna say too much because the death penalty is pretty much one of those topics that you can't change somebody's mind on.

The death penalty is hardly a deterrent. Murder has occurred for centuries, sometimes with death as punishment, sometimes as paying 8 cattle to your lord. People are always going to kill people regardless of what happens afterwards.

Oh, not to mention it costs more in the end to go through with an execution than to house an average inmate for life.

[rufiocardtime]

not to mention....how the hell is killing people supposed to teach them that killing is wrong? utterly absurd.


because most people don't like the thought of dying. it's not natural. it's a sense of justice and morality. without it, i would kill you for disagreeing with me...

you see the point? i know it's really hard. i think maybe i picked up one it when i was like...uh...*looks at watch* ...maybe three f*cking years old. it's a really tough concept.

[rufiocardtime]

George Bush is responnsible for WAY more innocent people dying than this guy. Maybe we could make this dude our next president? A lack of consideration for life seems to be a requirement of the job.


sometimes you have to take lives for the greater good. in the end, countless more lives will have been saved. for the past 35 years, 25 million people have been living under the oppression of a flat out cruel and evil man. most of these people have their first chance to learn what it feels like to live in freedom and vote for their leader, just like you.


for more political advice, go listen to fat mike. he's really cool and he's basically an expert on government and politics.

and for cleaner teeth, try a f*cking toothbrush.

[abusedcat]

Also Arnold has really gone up and beyond on this case, and I think it's pathetic you assume his choice is purely based on politics.

He allowed lawyers on both sides to come argue in front of him for an hour, and in the end he's upheld what every court has upheld for the past 24 years. I would hate to be in Arnolds place and am sure for anyone it was a difficult choice.


So a man's life should be left up to a half an hour of testimony in front of a Governor who has no legal background?legal backround doesn't make someone a good governor. we got Gray Davis out of office because he was awful. Davis had tons of background, that doesn't make him good.

[rednose]

i believe that if tookie were really a reformed man he would accept death, realizing that he directly and indirectly killed so many people. instead, he's worried and scrambling and the only reason hes acting like a refomed person is that he doesnt want to die.

[snowtires]

good. one less murderer on the earth, breathing up more deserving people's air. the real question is: would he have reformed had he not been caught? he wasted his life by taking others' away from them, he does not deserve to live.

[siimpx]

i don't care if he's changed or not. if i were stuck in prison & had image consultants & such like he had, hell i would probably change too. it's not like there's a question of self defense or innocence or whatever. he shot people for no reason & knew exactly what he was doing. he is a killer & i don't care what good he's done. i think he's disgusting. like the death pentalty or not, that's what the punishment is for certain crimes in this country & that's what he deserves.

[sweetmik]

i believe that if tookie were really a reformed man he would accept death, realizing that he directly and indirectly killed so many people. instead, he's worried and scrambling and the only reason hes acting like a refomed person is that he doesnt want to die.

read the news. He's been extremely calm and co-operative. He is accepting death, despite others who worked to prevent it. He appreciates their effort, but if they can't do anymore, that's okay with him.

[histrionics22]

he already is being punished with a life sentance (which in my opinion is WAY worse). what is killing him going to prove? is anyone going to come back to life? are gangs going to cease to exist? is peace going to overcome this whole nation? no! we will just lose a man who has seen the error of his ways and done valuable things to help our society. more importantly, though, is that one more life will have been unjustly taken by a body of people that do not have the right to decide who is worthy of life.

I can completely see your point and such. I am against the death penalty as well. But imagine someone killed someone you loved. I really doubt a lot of people would have the will power to say you want him to live. The taking of life is not right in any form. But I know I couldn't hold back on someone if they murdered someone in my family.

Just to throw this out there as a type of over the top example, what do you think of Saddam Hussein right now? Or what if we captured Bin Laden? Would you really have the power to say you don't want him to die? Truthfully I would love to put him at the top of a 100 story building and give him the choice of jumping or burning to death.

[bigmike]

While I don't fully support the death penalty, it was what he was sentenced to. The fact of the matter is that he was convicted of killing 4 people, and indirectly killed a lot more. If i were a family member of someone he killed I believe that this day would have been far overdue in my eyes. Do I think he's rehabilitated and a changed man? Yeah, he could be. And he might be. But it doesn't change the fact that this sentence was handed out what, 24 years ago, and if it hasn't changed in that amount of time, writing children books really won't change it now.

But I do not envy Arnold's position at all, I wouldn't want to make this decision. Because you're in a lose-lose situation. If you up hold the original sentence you're making up for the death of 4 with the death of one. And if you overturn it, it'll come across as insensitive and uncaring towards the remaining family of the 4 that he was convicted of killing. This is one of the few topics that makes me ride the fence.

[Frequency]

This incident happened awhile ago. I'm sure he has learned from his mistakes.

[Bikeage]

hooray for archaic idiots spouting eye for an eye! my oh my, we certainly aren't as civilized as previously thought. barbarism with a clever disguise

[JunkBondTrader]

i didnt read all of the posts so im not sure if anyone has pointed this out....
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040408/040408_redemption_vmed_12p.widec.jp g


WHO WOULD FUCK WITH THIS GUY! GOD DAYUM!
Thats one bad motherfucker.....

But yea dude, it seems like he has made a major attmept to change his life and do what he can to steer kids away from gang violence. the death penalty is fucking lame. no one asked him to fucking change his life and do as much good as he could from the position he was in.

[tedE]

I don't see why everybody keeps saying, "Oh, but he wrote children books to deter kids from joining gangs" You think a fuckin book is going to stop kids from joining a gang? Its all about peer pressure, survival, and other crap. For those kids, either they join a gang, or get killed by a gang, that's how it works in the areas that Tookie created.
I mean, you can liken it to smoking cigarettes, pot, etc. You can put out all this media propaganda to tell kids not to do it, but they're still going to do it. The same goes for gangs, a book isn't going to do shit as long as fear and peer pressure are around.

Edit: heh, I just went to the NBC 6 site(www.nbc6.com) to see if any riots have occurred. I find it funny that under "Videos on Demand" is "Crips Cofounder Executed." Do I get to see a video of the lethal injection? =P

[shatteredfist]

He obviously hasn't DIRECTLY killed more than four people, because he's spent most of his adult life in jail. However, he INDIRECTLY has killed many more than that, due to the group he helped found. He didn't start a Boy Scout troup or anything here man, he helped start a STREET GANG. His teachings and beliefs (before being sent to prison for his crimes) most certainly influenced other gang members to commit similar crimes, and continue to do so to this day.

It's easy to say the inventor of the knife, bombs, etc should be treated the same way as this murderer, but that's just foolish and unfair. The knife was invented as a TOOL, and just so happened to be very good at killing animals and people. Likewise, the atomic bomb was supported by the most important people in the world, for their agenda, so the scientists and laborers who helped create it are not at fault. That would be like an employee at Enron going to jail for the crimes the big wigs at the company committed...

I'm just disputing that he shouldn't be held responsible for the gangs actions, but is completly responsible for his own. He should rot in prison for the deaths of the 4 people, and that's all. I know he started the gang, but he isn't responsible for what they do without him. FSU, for example, was started to rid the hardcore scene here of the neo-nazi element, which was rampant. What they've become, is almost worst than what they were meant for. Would you hold responsible, the founders of FSU, who had good intentions, for starting a similar gang?

p.s.- I know what the difference between INDIRECTLY and DIRICTLY are, thanks for putting them in bold. I'm not trying to antagonize anybody, I'm just trying to get a point across. You should try the same.

[VOTELP]

Tookie's been nominated for the nobel prize 5 fucking times. This is bullshit.
Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Mussolini have also been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize...
Basically what you are saying doesn't mean a damn thing.

[VOTELP]

Whether you like it or not this guy was tried and convicted by a jury of his peers. His conviction was upheld by the 9th District Court of Appeals (not exactly a conservative court) and the Supreme Court deferred case back to the 9th District and they once again upheld the conviction.
He killed four people in cold blood. He never showed any remorse nor admission for the murderers. This is one of the reasons that Schwarzenegger refused to grant clemency. Schwarzenegger said, "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption." That leds me to believe that had Williams actually admitted to the crimes and expressed remorse that he would have had his sentence commuted.

I think he should have been executed within a year of the murders.

[XlenceOfXecution]

im just tripping balls over what kind of mom would name their kid Tookie...

[rednose]

his real name is stanley