Bye-Bye Marte already?

[LeftWideOpen]

http://www.ecnnews.com/cgi-bin/05/snstory.pl?-sec-Sports+1k589g0+fn-nredsox.1216-20051216-

Coco Crisp might be on his way to the Sox for Marte and Mota.

[Doug]

worst deal

[NetNerdsRevenge]

eh, Im a little in between. Marte could be great, but he could also be a bust. With Crsip we know were getting a guy who is good now, and can only improve. I guess we'll see about this one....

Marte could very well be injured. ...

[Doug]

marte has been said to be the no. 1 prospect in baseball. crisp is a decent-good outfielder.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

I think its the best in the Braves system. If I had time to look, I would, but I think he's in the top 10 in BaseballAmerica.com prospects list, not #1 though.

Crisp posted an OPS of .810 last year at 25. He has room to improve and batting in Fenway could not hurt him.

[mikeford]

id rather do the clement for jeremy reed thing and get a CF that way.

[ActorInThisPlay]

haha i love that guys name...Coco Crisp...lol

[Doug]

haha i love that guys name...Coco Crisp...lol

hahahahahaha it's like he's a cereal or something. lol rofl lmao.!!!1!!!one!!!211!!!!

[LeftWideOpen]

apparently that trade isnt happening, and the talks are now centered on Crisp for Arroyo or Clement.

Much better deal in my opinion.

[mikeford]

yeah trading the top prospect in the MLB for coco crisp... not so much a good idea.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

apparently that trade isnt happening, and the talks are now centered on Crisp for Arroyo or Clement.

Much better deal in my opinion.
ya, I saw this last night. This is a much better deal. The only problem is, if we trade one of these two, and then trade Wells, we're going to need pitching. Unless Wells brings us Eaton (which i doubt will happen), we're gonna have to find it else where. FA is a place to start, but with the inflated market, I’m not sure we can get a well priced pitcher. One scenario that could work is trading Manny for pitching and hitting. I dont know if that deal has been brought up any where, but it could work. A decent bat and good arm could bring back full value in a Manny trade.

Still would love to that Clement/Nixon for Abreu deal go through.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Here's baseball America's top 20 minor league players for 2005. Marte is not here...

Top Prospect/Scouting Reports Chat
Mark Pawelek, lhp, Cubs
Andrew McCutchen, of, Pirates Allan Simpson
Brandon Snyder, 3b/c, Orioles Matt Eddy
Jay Bruce, of, Reds
Nolan Reimold, of, Orioles
Shane Lindsay, rhp, Rockies
Carlos Gonzales, of, Diamondbacks
Scott Elbert, lhp, Dodgers
Andy LaRoche, 3b, Dodgers
Jarrod Saltalamacchia , c, Braves
Brandon Wood , ss, Angels
Francisco Liriano , lhp, Twins
Delmon Young , of, Devil Rays
Howie Kendrick, 2b, Angels
Felis Hernandez, rhp, Mariners
Delmon Young , of, Devil Rays

He is, however, 9th in Baseball America's top 100 prospects and no doubt will be #1 in the red sox organization.

[Emopunkthrice]

Here's baseball America's top 20 minor league players for 2005. Marte is not here...

Top Prospect/Scouting Reports Chat
Mark Pawelek, lhp, Cubs
Andrew McCutchen, of, Pirates Allan Simpson
Brandon Snyder, 3b/c, Orioles Matt Eddy
Jay Bruce, of, Reds
Nolan Reimold, of, Orioles
Shane Lindsay, rhp, Rockies
Carlos Gonzales, of, Diamondbacks
Scott Elbert, lhp, Dodgers
Andy LaRoche, 3b, Dodgers
Jarrod Saltalamacchia , c, Braves
Brandon Wood , ss, Angels
Francisco Liriano , lhp, Twins
Delmon Young , of, Devil Rays
Howie Kendrick, 2b, Angels
Felis Hernandez, rhp, Mariners
Delmon Young , of, Devil Rays

He is, however, 9th in Baseball America's top 100 prospects and no doubt will be #1 in the red sox organization.
Sweet I didn't know Delmon Young had a twin named Delmon Young.
And like dude, Justin Verlander isn't on here.

[LeftWideOpen]

ya, I saw this last night. This is a much better deal. The only problem is, if we trade one of these two, and then trade Wells, we're going to need pitching. Unless Wells brings us Eaton (which i doubt will happen), we're gonna have to find it else where. FA is a place to start, but with the inflated market, I’m not sure we can get a well priced pitcher. One scenario that could work is trading Manny for pitching and hitting. I dont know if that deal has been brought up any where, but it could work. A decent bat and good arm could bring back full value in a Manny trade.

Still would love to that Clement/Nixon for Abreu deal go through.

Even if we rid ourselves of Wells and either Arroyo/Clement ..we still have a starting 5 of Beckett, Schilling, Papelbon, Wakefield, and Arroyo/Clement. Obviously pitching is something you can't have enough of, but I would feel pretty confident going into the season w/ that rotation and Crisp in the lineup.

The Clement/Nixon for Abreu thing always seemed too good to be true to me.

[cantnokdahustle]

only way we trade marte to the tribe is for sizemore.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Even if we rid ourselves of Wells and either Arroyo/Clement ..we still have a starting 5 of Beckett, Schilling, Papelbon, Wakefield, and Arroyo/Clement. Obviously pitching is something you can't have enough of, but I would feel pretty confident going into the season w/ that rotation and Crisp in the lineup.

The Clement/Nixon for Abreu thing always seemed too good to be true to me.
ahhh, forgot about Papelbon. Still, trading Manny for a top throwing starter and a nice bat, not a bad idea.

A line-up of Ortiz, Manny, and Abreu. look out.

[mikeford]

abreu is awful. i dont why you would want the least clutch human alive. everyone i know from philly hates this dude almost as much as they hate pat burrell

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Please tell me how a career .411 OBP and career .512 SLG is awful? Last year he had a OBP .405, SLG .474, OPS of .879....how is this awful?

While being "Clutch" is something you cant measure, hardballtimes ranks him at a clutch factor of 4.9,Ortiz at 4.2.

[mikeford]

when an entire fan base HATES YOU for striking out when you need a game winning RBI like 239 times a season, it means you arent clutch.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Well, fortunately for the red sox, he hasn’t struck out 239 times a season, and he would be hitting behind Ortiz and hopefully Manny. And, since clutch is something you cant clearly measure, that is not a good argument for how awful someone is.

[Doug]

abreu has a history of hitting home runs when it doesn't matter and not hitting in situations where it does matter. this is the best way of measuring clutch. history of a player.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

But when you think of clutch, its always late innings, game winning/tying hits, when clutch could also mean coming through in the second. You cannot clearly measure how well a “clutch” hitter is, like you can BA or OBP. A-rod has a history of being "non clutch", would you pass on an opportunity to get him (associations aside)?

[Doug]

yes, of course i would pass on an opportunity to get arod

[NetNerdsRevenge]

why?

[mikeford]

dude

listen

ive posted on a philly based hardcore message board for like 4 years.

i know how much they hate him for not coming through in the 2nd, 7th or 9th

hes not useful.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

ok, ill listen to people from Philly who boo at every chance they get. ya, thats a good idea.

A .400 obp is useful, no matter how well you hit. And it just so happens he is a pretty good hitter too.

[LeftWideOpen]

ok, ill listen to people from Philly who boo at every chance they get. ya, thats a good idea.

A .400 obp is useful, no matter how well you hit. And it just so happens he is a pretty good hitter too.

yeah I'll take Abreu for his bat in the first seven innings since Ortiz seems to have the clutch hitting down alright. Abreu is in no way a bad addition for the Sox if it were to happen - but theres no way they'll take that Clement/Nixon deal thats been in the papers.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

ya, its a pipe dream. Reed or Crisp is more likely. Still would love to see Wilkerson though. Texas needs pitching and Clement is a ground ball pitcher......

[Doug]

why?

you would want alex rodriguez on your team?

[mikeford]

id prefer to win another world series

so yeah, say no to the arod curse of the purse.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

hm yes...note that I said associations aside.

EDIT: Response to Doug

[NetNerdsRevenge]

id prefer to win another world series

so yeah, say no to the arod curse of the purse.
When you use curse as your argument, you have no argument. Things could of been totally different with A-rod. yes, we might not of won (idea I subscribe too), but we may of won, no one will ever know. You cant say for fact we wouldn't of, though

[Doug]

hm yes...note that I said associations aside.

i mean, what associations? his shitty attitude? his "curse"? his slapping balls? him being the least clutch playoff player?

[mikeford]

listen. we discussed this in the clemens thread.

theres certain measures of integrity i would prefer players on my team subscribe to

arod does not do that.

thus, i dont want him.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

i mean, what associations? his shitty attitude? his "curse"? his slapping balls? him being the least clutch playoff player?
If you’re going to use a myth, one play, and something you cannot measure as a way to deny a player, you need to rethink the way you view baseball. His attitude is a problem, but then again, Manny's attitude can be trouble, or Pedro's as well.


maybe if you used his price tag as an argument, it would work.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

listen. we discussed this in the clemens thread.

theres certain measures of integrity i would prefer players on my team subscribe to

arod does not do that.

thus, i dont want him.
Do you want Manny on your team? His trade demands are as much a problem as A-rod.

[Doug]

If you’re going to use a myth, one play, and something you cannot measure as a way to deny a player, you need to rethink the way you view baseball. His attitude is a problem, but then again, Manny's attitude can be trouble, or Pedro's as well.


maybe if you used his price tag as an argument, it would work.

if you are a red sox fan and would actually like alex rodriguez on your team, you need to rethink the way you view baseball.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

oh really? how? Because he is the best shortstop of the once top 4 in the AL? Because he has a higher Slg percentage than Ortiz? Because when at short, he plays a good defense? Is it because im actually thinking about ways our team could be better rather than holding grudges? You would not have these things to say about him if he was on the Sox and if we had won a world series with him....well maybe not you because you’re from Seattle, but I know others wouldn't.

[mikeford]

i didnt want him on my team.

[mikeford]

http://www.centerfuse.net/page2/messageboard/message_view.php?browse_topic=1&msg_topic=1&id=4133539&from_page=1&order_by=&&


abreu poll on said philly board.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

i didnt want him on my team.
who, Manny or A-rod? If A-rod, was it because we were giving up to much? That's why I didn't like the deal...

[mikeford]

arod, because i dont like him.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

http://www.centerfuse.net/page2/messageboard/message_view.php?browse_topic=1&msg_topic=1&id=4133539&from_page=1&order_by=&&


abreu poll on said philly board.
Posting a philly message board does nothing for your argument. If someone was using you to judge how well a Red Sox player was, they would not want Clemens.

[mikeford]

Posting a philly message board does nothing for your argument. If someone was using you to judge how well a Red Sox player was, they would not want Clemens.

how does it do nothing?

its actual accounts from people who watched every phillies game.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

arod, because i dont like him.
So you'd rather the sox be a worse team because you dont like someone?

Note: im not saying were better off with A-rod, but using the argument that you dont like someone, is not exactly a sound baseball argument. I dont like Wells, but I know he made us a better team in 05 then we would have been without him, so I deal with it.

[mikeford]

im not a gm. im a fan. i dont want, in my eyes, despicable people, on my team.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

how does it do nothing?

its actual accounts from people who watched every phillies game.
Because they have some weird notion that Abreu is worthless. Abreu had a 56.8 VORP last year. Thats better than Damon, Tek, Mueller, Nixon, Clement, etc.

And just the same, if Philly fans looked at your argument about Clemens, they would be turned off, when Clemens in one of the greatest pitchers ever.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

im not a gm. im a fan. i dont want, in my eyes, despicable people, on my team.
and I want what will make our team better. Im also a fan...