Orwell Rolls Over in His Grave

[Jason Tate]

A few of the smarter Senators have requested a probe (http://today.reuters.com/News/newsArticle.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyID=2005-12-20T183110Z_01_EIC066527_RTRUKOC_0_U S-SECURITY-EAVESDROPPING.xml) into Bush's spying orders. Cheney responds, there's "a hell of a threat."

[Hidenothing27]

tate can u ever put anything positive about bush! EVER its evident you hate em but put both sides of a story how bout mention that his approval rating just leaped upwads of ten points and what he did is legal and as long as your doing anything shady like planning bombs then quit your bitching you will never knowif u were spied on or not..

[Jason Tate]

tate can u ever put anything positive about bush! EVER its evident you hate em but put both sides of a story how bout mention that his approval rating just leaped upwads of ten points and what he did is legal and as long as your doing anything shady like planning bombs then quit your bitching you will never knowif u were spied on or not..
Wait, spying/tapping without a warrent is legal? How do you figure this? I don't "hate" Bush, I hate his absurd notions and ideas for this country. I'm sure the guy is a great guy (albeit his record is a little shady in those regards) and a God-fearing man, doesn't mean he's done an ounce of good for our country.

http://www.danfingerman.com/images/bush/Finger.jpg

As for approval ratings ... uhm (http://www.hist.umn.edu/~ruggles/Approval.htm).

I did post both sides of the story, Cheney gave an indepth analysis as to why we should spy on US citizens, "there's a hell of a threat."

PS. That was one hell of a long sentence.

[thisgetupkid]

tate can u ever put anything positive about bush! EVER its evident you hate em but put both sides of a story how bout mention that his approval rating just leaped upwads of ten points and what he did is legal and as long as your doing anything shady like planning bombs then quit your bitching you will never knowif u were spied on or not..

hmmm but isn't your name hide nothing?
I think that spying and not telling folks is pretty "shady"
but this is only my opinion.

[Hidenothing27]

hmmm but isn't your name hide nothing?
I think that spying and not telling folks is pretty "shady"
but this is only my opinion.


that hide nothing park really cracks me up... yes it is still legal its called the patriot act which does expire beginning of next year...and like i said waht are you or anyone else worrying about.. what do u have to hide besides the porn sites you visit... and yes i see his approval ratings still low but have jumped 10 something points in a month.. or why didnt you post last week that afganistan had to say about the U.s and the demorcracy that was put in place... over 90 percent polled loved what bush did for that county.. thats something the country can be proud of with this dark time in iraq.. i really just wished kerry won cause i'dbe curious to see if there was anything ever posted bad about the almighty kerrry i.. i understand your opinion /view.. and may be valid but its frustrating when all you do is bash someone and never give credit or someone elses view

[deFobbed14yrs]

i agree with jason tate. his approvl ratings were at a low of 34%. 34%!! No matter that half the country and the world already hates him, but even his redneck friends are slowly leaving him. You wanna know why gas prices were so high? no not because of a shortage, but b/c theres only 9 miles a gallon for war tanks which r currently being used in Iraq. Also his great "No child left behind law" has totallyyyyyy worked wonders on the NY state school system. now i have SPED kids in my guitar class, who don't even know how to hold a guitar. If u love bush so much, please elaborate how his "Great" reign has gone. u tell us the good facts and not that lame one about his approval raings jumping up 10 percent from 34%. Thats still in the 40's hunny bunches. NOT TO SOUND MEAN or anything, just putting in my 2cents. :music:

o yeah, kerry ain't too good either, i wish Gore was around. he rocked. Kerry smiles wayy too much. and if u guys knew anything about politics, you can see that only southern democrats have won in the past years. i.e. Clnton, he's from good 'ol Alabama and he won as a demi.

[deFobbed14yrs]

hey who says kerry is good. personally i like neither. Gore should have won back in 2000

[Hidenothing27]

i never said anything about his reign.. tell where i do or how great he is.. in my opinion afghanistan is prob the one of the fiew good things he has done.. also my mere argument was how one sided this website is in views and it was great when tate had the political debates that was awesome havent seen any of those lately.. i agree that bush def hasnt done the best job but you can still show both sides... oh and yah its not 40 its 47 percent... bad yes... better then a month ago YES

READ up http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10538012/

[thisgetupkid]

that hide nothing park really cracks me up... yes it is still legal its called the patriot act which does expire beginning of next year...and like i said waht are you or anyone else worrying about.. what do u have to hide besides the porn sites you visit... and yes i see his approval ratings still low but have jumped 10 something points in a month.. or why didnt you post last week that afganistan had to say about the U.s and the demorcracy that was put in place... over 90 percent polled loved what bush did for that county.. thats something the country can be proud of with this dark time in iraq.. i really just wished kerry won cause i'dbe curious to see if there was anything ever posted bad about the almighty kerrry i.. i understand your opinion /view.. and may be valid but its frustrating when all you do is bash someone and never give credit or someone elses view

I can see that I suppose
but i personally think the patriot act is unconstitutional
Even if it is law, I don't want the government knowing what books i read, where I go on the internet, where I shop...or any of that stuff. You say that i have nothing to worry about besides porn sites, but I want to keep my whole private life...errr...private from the government, because it's my life, regardless of where go or what I buy. I do not have anything to "hide" but I think it should (and is) my right as an American to do what I want without big brother breathing down my shirt. I can see your frustration though.

[Hidenothing27]

bob dole would have been great... ever since he became a spokes person for viagra he cracks me up

[kittypants]

Dubya is the man! Gotta support my man amid all you trendy liberal punk fsckers!

[Hidenothing27]

I can see that I suppose
but i personally think the patriot act is unconstitutional
Even if it is law, I don't want the government knowing what books i read, where I go on the internet, where I shop...or any of that stuff. You say that i have nothing to worry about besides porn sites, but I want to keep my whole private life...errr...private from the government, because it's my life, regardless of where go or what I buy. I do not have anything to "hide" but I think it should (and is) my right as an American to do what I want without big brother breathing down my shirt. I can see your frustration though.

yah man i understand your view to.. when i think about it like that i agree.. but i feel like as long as im not doing anything that warrants them to talk to me i will never know they are spieing on me

[Jason Tate]

that hide nothing park really cracks me up... yes it is still legal its called the patriot act which does expire beginning of next year...and like i said waht are you or anyone else worrying about.. what do u have to hide besides the porn sites you visit... and yes i see his approval ratings still low but have jumped 10 something points in a month.. or why didnt you post last week that afganistan had to say about the U.s and the demorcracy that was put in place... over 90 percent polled loved what bush did for that county.. thats something the country can be proud of with this dark time in iraq.. i really just wished kerry won cause i'dbe curious to see if there was anything ever posted bad about the almighty kerrry i.. i understand your opinion /view.. and may be valid but its frustrating when all you do is bash someone and never give credit or someone elses view

Actually, the patriot act isn't what's being cited here. His "war-time" abilities/powers September 14th Resolution (to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organisations, or persons he determines planned, authorised, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11 2001, or harboured such organisations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organisations or persons), are what they're saying gave him the right to bypass FISA warrants. The main thing is, a FISA warrant can approve a wiretap retrospectively but the administration decided that even this would be too slow. That's what's not right, and it's not necessary or approrpriate force. They completely disregarded the law. Presidents have been impeached for less.

Second, I don't see any "bashing" going on, I see a simple display of facts and opinions from some of the most well-respected political figures in this country. I think you should take a closer look at what precedents are being set right under your noise .. unless you're really willing to give up liberty for the guise of security.

And I must have missed any news about us putting a Democracy in Afganistan, I believe that was Iraq; I could be wrong .. but maybe you suffering from the common Republican mistake of which country was actually responsible for 9/11 and why we went there?

A 10 point climb from record lows, isn't described as a "jump" by anyone other than apologists; and means basically nothing. A stats class will explain polls better than I can on a message board.

[Jason Tate]

yah man i understand your view to.. when i think about it like that i agree.. but i feel like as long as im not doing anything that warrants them to talk to me i will never know they are spieing on me
There have already been cases of perfectly normal, perfectly NOT-TERRORISTS who've been victims of the abuse of the patriot act. Citizens with no reasons for their civil liberties being violated, have had them removed. That's wrong. It's not just about you and me not knowing who is spying on us, it's about the principles on which this country was founded and is so fond of preaching to the world. If we are going to stand on a soapbox and say one thing to the globe, we might as well actually stand for these ideals in our homeland. I don't understand how we can tell Iraq, "YOU MUST HAVE A DEMOCRACY AND YOU WILL BE FREE!!! LIBERTY!!!" - when we're making moves to digress in our own liberties and 'democracy' in our own borders.

[kittypants]

And I must have missed any news about us putting a Democracy in Afganistan, I believe that was Iraq; I could be wrong .. but maybe you suffering from the common Republican mistake of which country was actually responsible for 9/11 and why we went there?



Yeah, you did miss it : http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/12/20/a_sign_of_democracy_in_afghanistan/

[avitabully]

i.e. Clnton, he's from good 'ol Alabama and he won as a demi.

First of all, a demi is a bra, not a politcal tag. Second, well first maybe, or 1a, Clinton is not from Alabama. Why would you even bother saying anything if you don't know what you're talking about?

And my opinion: I don't care if there exists a document named the Patriot Act and if you want to try to use that as justification for spying on our own citizens, because the Patriot Act itself is infringent on the rights the Constitution is supposed to provide us and should have never been passed in the first place.

I don't think Jason should feel obliged to post about both sides of the argument when our administrative branch isn't willing to even acknowledge both sides of most of their contested issues. And when they do, we get bullshit like "Given the fact that we now know the intelligence we acted upon was false, I would still invade Iraq because it was for the greater good." That's not an acknowledgement! That's spin!

[Jason Tate]

Yeah, you did miss it : http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/12/20/a_sign_of_democracy_in_afghanistan/
Hey, good for us. I hope it was for the better of the country, and that we haven't created a hot-zone for new terrorist activity in the up-coming decades. If it's truly what the people of the country want, and it ends up bettering the global community - then that's a big step forward. History has shown us how horrible it can be if we put up leaders who don't have the countries support (Batista, Diem, etc.).

[brooklynburning]

I can see that I suppose
but i personally think the patriot act is unconstitutional
Even if it is law, I don't want the government knowing what books i read, where I go on the internet, where I shop...or any of that stuff. You say that i have nothing to worry about besides porn sites, but I want to keep my whole private life...errr...private from the government, because it's my life, regardless of where go or what I buy. I do not have anything to "hide" but I think it should (and is) my right as an American to do what I want without big brother breathing down my shirt. I can see your frustration though.

right on man.

[nerogtr]

aw tate, come on. stop picking on good ol bushy! just kidding, you dont rip on him enough.

[Jason Tate]

aw tate, come on. stop picking on good ol bushy! just kidding, you dont rip on him enough.
I heard Bush started a new special task force called, "The Redneck Force," all taken from his biggest supporting states. He is said to be sending this elite force over to Iraq today. They handed all of the 'Redneck Force' shotguns and said, "these are the ones responsible for Dale Earnhardt's death" .... the war should be over in 24 hours.

[Hidenothing27]

whatever i have said what i wanted to i have to get back to work but really though tate what happened the debates.. that atleased showcased both sides not just yours

[Jason Tate]

whatever i have said what i wanted to i have to get back to work but really though tate what happened the debates.. that atleased showcased both sides not just yours
Both parties had extenuating school circumstances which made scheduling them impossible. Once Kelsey left (who was in charge of getting the two sides to meet), there was no way I had enough time to coordinate their schedules. So, we stopped them.

[fortyparachutes]

You know...while we're on the subject of freedom, why don't we bring up the whole 'Happy Holidays' thing. I went to Target today, and the employees aren't allowed to say the word 'Christmas'. Let's not forget that 90% of the US celebrates Christmas. Why would you rather offend that 90% than the other ten??

And about the probe: I'd like to hear who has been "hurt" by the patriot act. Honestly, if you're not doing anything wrong, then you don't have any reason to worry about this.

Tate, I can't believe you can say that Bush hasn't done an ounce of good for our country. Would you rather have more terrorist attacks here on our on own soil. We're keeping the fight in the Middle East so we don't have to meet it on the homefront.

[siimpx]

i hope he gets impeached. bush grossly abuses his power.

[siimpx]

You know...while we're on the subject of freedom, why don't we bring up the whole 'Happy Holidays' thing. I went to Target today, and the employees aren't allowed to say the word 'Christmas'. Let's not forget that 90% of the US celebrates Christmas. Why would you rather offend that 90% than the other ten?

yess this bothers me too! i personally don't even think people who aren't christians should celebrate christmas, but that's a whole different story.

[KarateExplosion]

you guys are almost as anti-bush as Rolling Stone. seriously. chill out.

[thisgetupkid]

You know...while we're on the subject of freedom, why don't we bring up the whole 'Happy Holidays' thing. I went to Target today, and the employees aren't allowed to say the word 'Christmas'. Let's not forget that 90% of the US celebrates Christmas. Why would you rather offend that 90% than the other ten??

And about the probe: I'd like to hear who has been "hurt" by the patriot act. Honestly, if you're not doing anything wrong, then you don't have any reason to worry about this.

Tate, I can't believe you can say that Bush hasn't done an ounce of good for our country. Would you rather have more terrorist attacks here on our on own soil. We're keeping the fight in the Middle East so we don't have to meet it on the homefront.

I celebrate christmas and i'm not offended by them not being allowed to say "christmas"
I am hurt by the act, I don't want the government knowing what books I read, it doesn't matter that i'm not checking out "How to be a terrorist", I want to keep my life to myself, I consider that part of my freedom

i'm sure no one wants more terrorist attacks
however, I do not see how the goverment knowing that I checked out "Wuthering Heights" will stop this.
I do not belive for one second we are fighting this war for any good reason, but that's my opinion.

[Jason Tate]

You know...while we're on the subject of freedom, why don't we bring up the whole 'Happy Holidays' thing. I went to Target today, and the employees aren't allowed to say the word 'Christmas'. Let's not forget that 90% of the US celebrates Christmas. Why would you rather offend that 90% than the other ten??

And about the probe: I'd like to hear who has been "hurt" by the patriot act. Honestly, if you're not doing anything wrong, then you don't have any reason to worry about this.

Tate, I can't believe you can say that Bush hasn't done an ounce of good for our country. Would you rather have more terrorist attacks here on our on own soil. We're keeping the fight in the Middle East so we don't have to meet it on the homefront.

90%; I'd like to see those numbers almost as much as you want to see those hurt by the patriot act.

I; however, can answer your question quickly before I run out to do last minute "holiday" shopping. Haha, just kidding, I celebrate Christmas.

According to the report released (http://www.house.gov/judiciary/patriotlet051303.pdf) by House Judiciary Committee Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr. (R-Wis.) and Ranking Member John Conyers, Jr. (D-Mich.):


The Department has used the new powers of the PATRIOT Act for non-terrorism cases (drug violations, credit card fraud, theft from a bank account, a lawyer who defrauded his clients).
The Department has sought and the courts have authorized delayed notification of search warrants 47 times. Some courts have authorized delayed notification lasting until the indictment was unsealed. The Department has sought extensions of such delayed notifications 248 times.
The Attorney General made emergency authorizations 113 times for FISA electronic surveillance and/or physical searches in a one-year period.
Prior to moving to DHS, the INS did not charge any aliens with the expanded terrorism grounds of inadmissibility or deportability provided under section 411 of the PATRIOT Act.
The Attorney General has ordered the monitoring of attorney communications for a single inmate: Sheik Omar Ahmad Rahman, who was convicted for his part in the 1993 plot to bomb the World Trade Center. Rahman and his attorney were notified that their communications were subject to monitoring. No monitoring has occurred, however, because the inmate and his attorneys thus far have chose not to communicate further with each other.
Read the full report, I was just pulling stuff at random; some of it arbitrary, some of it "good" and some of it completely retarded.

Furthermore: http://www.cdt.org/security/usapatriot/031027cdt.shtml gives a very basic law-run down on refuting the PA. It's a very informative read.

Also, there was the "finger-print" incident with the Oregonian citizen, Brandon Mayfield. Simply Google his name for all the information you could ask for.

There's more, but I really have to be heading out the door ..

[fortyparachutes]

i'm sure no one wants more terrorist attacks
however, I do not see how the goverment knowing that I checked out "Wuthering Heights" will stop this.
I do not belive for one second we are fighting this war for any good reason, but that's my opinion.

I think what people seem to be forgetting is that the government isn't going to care about what every single person does. They're not going to have a file on all the people in the country. This is just for those whom the government is suspicious of.

[Kristina Marie]

Dubya is the man! Gotta support my man amid all you trendy liberal punk fsckers!

I've noticed that you generalize the liberals by calling them "trendy." Just about every post where you come onto the scene, you feel the need to mention that, which I think is, honestly, just funny. Bush's approval ratings are, what, 36% right now? (I believe it got bumped up two percent within the last month.) Even so, that's extremely low. At this point, I can hardly and find it absurd to think or say that it is trendy to disapprove of Bush and his administration. People are waking up and realizing what he's doing to this country, is all.

[Lerok22]

I never agree with Bush, but I'm willing to give up a little bit of privacy for protection. This is one time where I'll back him.

[billcom7]

If you think that every presidency (or the government in general) hasn't done the same thing for years you are just being naive. That is what the NSA does for the crying out loud! It has happened before, it will happen again, and there really isn't much anyone can do to stop it.

[Hidenothing27]

I've noticed that you generalize the liberals by calling them "trendy." Just about every post where you come onto the scene, you feel the need to mention that, which I think is, honestly, just funny. Bush's approval ratings are, what, 36% right now? (I believe it got bumped up two percent within the last month.) Even so, that's extremely low. At this point, I can hardly and find it absurd to think or say that it is trendy to disapprove of Bush and his administration. People are waking up and realizing what he's doing to this country, is all.


47% now,, hardly two points.. read before you comment like that... i even put the link earlier... 10 points in a month EDUCATE YOURSELF DUMBASS i gave that link already

[Stereo Therapy]

I think what people seem to be forgetting is that the government isn't going to care about what every single person does. They're not going to have a file on all the people in the country. This is just for those whom the government is suspicious of.

i guess thats a matter of trust.

[Hidenothing27]

If you think that every presidency (or the government in general) hasn't done the same thing for years you are just being naive. That is what the NSA does for the crying out loud! It has happened before, it will happen again, and there really isn't much anyone can do to stop it.


agreed... remmeber mccarthyism people if you dont think un lawfull spying was goin on then.. you need to stop drinking red balls

[thisgetupkid]

If you think that every presidency (or the government in general) hasn't done the same thing for years you are just being naive. That is what the NSA does for the crying out loud! It has happened before, it will happen again, and there really isn't much anyone can do to stop it.


well, let's just give up then and never question anything ever again. Part of being a patriot is questioning goverment and trying to spark some sort of change

This is just for those whom the government is suspicious of.

that's what I'm afraid of
when it comes down to it...who makes that choice?
I will look up a source for this, but I think i read somewhere the government has started taking pictures of people at anti-war protests, in order to "check up on them"

[gobblox is...]

while usually I disagree with bush, I think that there are some liberties that have to be taken back in this day and age. And the administration is not talking about taping every single home, like some liberals think (or over-react) he is talking about known terrorists with links to al queda... or so we are told.

The whole problem with the spying is that the administration is given 75 hours after the tap to go to court to justify it... and they aren't doing that, which is where the problem lies.

[thisgetupkid]

i guess thats a matter of trust.

I agree

[Amplifried]

Aw, bless your little hearts... you have opinions!

[Manbotisdead]

A few of the smarter Senators have requested a probe (http://today.reuters.com/News/newsArticle.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyID=2005-12-20T183110Z_01_EIC066527_RTRUKOC_0_U S-SECURITY-EAVESDROPPING.xml) into Bush's spying orders. Cheney responds, there's "a hell of a threat."

Tate, not to shit on you're title or anything, but Orwell would probably enjoy senators challenging something like this. I figure you mean at the concept of what is going on, but i really don't know.

Technically that republican kid is right though, under the Patriot Act this sort of shit is legal, as scary as that sounds.

[IAPAI]

I heard Bush started a new special task force called, "The Redneck Force," all taken from his biggest supporting states. He is said to be sending this elite force over to Iraq today. They handed all of the 'Redneck Force' shotguns and said, "these are the ones responsible for Dale Earnhardt's death" .... the war should be over in 24 hours.


HAHAHAH hilarious. Fucking Nascar fans.

[Hidenothing27]

the patriot act clearly state authorities can tap fones and do searches without a search warrant as long as probable cause is documented there are also numerous cases where the act has caught drug dealers.. after i get off work which is in about an hour i'll go home and find the article about it... i had to write a paper on the act for history and the article def gives pros and cons

[TheUntitled]

I love how everyone still thinks that we have a right to free speech. And I love how everyone that doesn't like Bush is a "liberal pussy". And I love how the Bush administration doesn't admit anything until it leaks to the media.

[Lerok22]

I love how everyone still thinks that we have a right to free speech. And I love how everyone that doesn't like Bush is a "liberal pussy". And I love how the Bush administration doesn't admit anything until it leaks to the media.

Why would they admit this before it leaked? They'd basically just be telling terrorists to make sure they don't say anything over the phone.

I honestly don't care if I lose a little bit of privacy. I have nothing to hide.

[Hidenothing27]

this is an informative read about things the patriot can doo.. i can agree with anyones opinion about the privacy thing but like i said you have to be doing some shady stuff to begin with to get attention



The USA PATRIOT Act: Preserving Life and Liberty
(Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism)


http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/images3/check.gif Congress enacted the Patriot Act by overwhelming, bipartisan margins, arming law enforcement with new tools to detect and prevent terrorism: The USA Patriot Act was passed nearly unanimously by the Senate 98-1, and 357-66 in the House, with the support of members from across the political spectrum.
The Act Improves Our Counter-Terrorism Efforts in Several Significant Ways:
1. The Patriot Act allows investigators to use the tools that were already available to investigate organized crime and drug trafficking. Many of the tools the Act provides to law enforcement to fight terrorism have been used for decades to fight organized crime and drug dealers, and have been reviewed and approved by the courts. As Sen. Joe Biden (D-DE) explained during the floor debate about the Act, "the FBI could get a wiretap to investigate the mafia, but they could not get one to investigate terrorists. To put it bluntly, that was crazy! What's good for the mob should be good for terrorists." (Cong. Rec., 10/25/01)
Allows law enforcement to use surveillance against more crimes of terror. Before the Patriot Act, courts could permit law enforcement to conduct electronic surveillance to investigate many ordinary, non-terrorism crimes, such as drug crimes, mail fraud, and passport fraud. Agents also could obtain wiretaps to investigate some, but not all, of the crimes that terrorists often commit. The Act enabled investigators to gather information when looking into the full range of terrorism-related crimes, including: chemical-weapons offenses, the use of weapons of mass destruction, killing Americans abroad, and terrorism financing.
Allows federal agents to follow sophisticated terrorists trained to evade detection. For years, law enforcement has been able to use "roving wiretaps" to investigate ordinary crimes, including drug offenses and racketeering. A roving wiretap can be authorized by a federal judge to apply to a particular suspect, rather than a particular phone or communications device. Because international terrorists are sophisticated and trained to thwart surveillance by rapidly changing locations and communication devices such as cell phones, the Act authorized agents to seek court permission to use the same techniques in national security investigations to track terrorists.
Allows law enforcement to conduct investigations without tipping off terrorists. In some cases if criminals are tipped off too early to an investigation, they might flee, destroy evidence, intimidate or kill witnesses, cut off contact with associates, or take other action to evade arrest. Therefore, federal courts in narrow circumstances long have allowed law enforcement to delay for a limited time when the subject is told that a judicially-approved search warrant has been executed. Notice is always provided, but the reasonable delay gives law enforcement time to identify the criminal's associates, eliminate immediate threats to our communities, and coordinate the arrests of multiple individuals without tipping them off beforehand. These delayed notification search warrants have been used for decades, have proven crucial in drug and organized crime cases, and have been upheld by courts as fully constitutional.
Allows federal agents to ask a court for an order to obtain business records in national security terrorism cases. Examining business records often provides the key that investigators are looking for to solve a wide range of crimes. Investigators might seek select records from hardware stores or chemical plants, for example, to find out who bought materials to make a bomb, or bank records to see who's sending money to terrorists. Law enforcement authorities have always been able to obtain business records in criminal cases through grand jury subpoenas, and continue to do so in national security cases where appropriate. These records were sought in criminal cases such as the investigation of the Zodiac gunman, where police suspected the gunman was inspired by a Scottish occult poet, and wanted to learn who had checked the poet's books out of the library. In national security cases where use of the grand jury process was not appropriate, investigators previously had limited tools at their disposal to obtain certain business records. Under the Patriot Act, the government can now ask a federal court (the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court), if needed to aid an investigation, to order production of the same type of records available through grand jury subpoenas. This federal court, however, can issue these orders only after the government demonstrates the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a U.S. person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a U.S. person is not conducted solely on the basis of activities protected by the First Amendment.
2. The Patriot Act facilitated information sharing and cooperation among government agencies so that they can better "connect the dots." The Act removed the major legal barriers that prevented the law enforcement, intelligence, and national defense communities from talking and coordinating their work to protect the American people and our national security. The government's prevention efforts should not be restricted by boxes on an organizational chart. Now police officers, FBI agents, federal prosecutors and intelligence officials can protect our communities by "connecting the dots" to uncover terrorist plots before they are completed. As Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.) said about the Patriot Act, "we simply cannot prevail in the battle against terrorism if the right hand of our government has no idea what the left hand is doing." (Press release, 10/26/01)


Prosecutors can now share evidence obtained through grand juries with intelligence officials -- and intelligence information can now be shared more easily with federal prosecutors. Such sharing of information leads to concrete results. For example, a federal grand jury recently indicted an individual in Florida, Sami al-Arian, for allegedly being the U.S. leader of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, one of the world's most violent terrorist outfits. Palestinian Islamic Jihad is responsible for murdering more than 100 innocent people, including a young American named Alisa Flatow who was killed in a tragic bus bombing in Gaza. The Patriot Act assisted us in obtaining the indictment by enabling the full sharing of information and advice about the case among prosecutors and investigators. Alisa's father, Steven Flatow, has said, "When you know the resources of your government are committed to right the wrongs committed against your daughter, that instills you with a sense of awe. As a father you can't ask for anything more."
3. The Patriot Act updated the law to reflect new technologies and new threats. The Act brought the law up to date with current technology, so we no longer have to fight a digital-age battle with antique weapons-legal authorities leftover from the era of rotary telephones. When investigating the murder of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, for example, law enforcement used one of the Act's new authorities to use high-tech means to identify and locate some of the killers.
Allows law enforcement officials to obtain a search warrant anywhere a terrorist-related activity occurred. Before the Patriot Act, law enforcement personnel were required to obtain a search warrant in the district where they intended to conduct a search. However, modern terrorism investigations often span a number of districts, and officers therefore had to obtain multiple warrants in multiple jurisdictions, creating unnecessary delays. The Act provides that warrants can be obtained in any district in which terrorism-related activities occurred, regardless of where they will be executed. This provision does not change the standards governing the availability of a search warrant, but streamlines the search-warrant process.
Allows victims of computer hacking to request law enforcement assistance in monitoring the "trespassers" on their computers. This change made the law technology-neutral; it placed electronic trespassers on the same footing as physical trespassers. Now, hacking victims can seek law enforcement assistance to combat hackers, just as burglary victims have been able to invite officers into their homes to catch burglars.
4. The Patriot Act increased the penalties for those who commit terrorist crimes. Americans are threatened as much by the terrorist who pays for a bomb as by the one who pushes the button. That's why the Patriot Act imposed tough new penalties on those who commit and support terrorist operations, both at home and abroad. In particular, the Act:
Prohibits the harboring of terrorists. The Act created a new offense that prohibits knowingly harboring persons who have committed or are about to commit a variety of terrorist offenses, such as: destruction of aircraft; use of nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons; use of weapons of mass destruction; bombing of government property; sabotage of nuclear facilities; and aircraft piracy.
Enhanced the inadequate maximum penalties for various crimes likely to be committed by terrorists: including arson, destruction of energy facilities, material support to terrorists and terrorist organizations, and destruction of national-defense materials.
Enhanced a number of conspiracy penalties, including for arson, killings in federal facilities, attacking communications systems, material support to terrorists, sabotage of nuclear facilities, and interference with flight crew members. Under previous law, many terrorism statutes did not specifically prohibit engaging in conspiracies to commit the underlying offenses. In such cases, the government could only bring prosecutions under the general federal conspiracy provision, which carries a maximum penalty of only five years in prison.
Punishes terrorist attacks on mass transit systems.
Punishes bioterrorists.
Eliminates the statutes of limitations for certain terrorism crimes and lengthens them for other terrorist crimes.The government's success in preventing another catastrophic attack on the American homeland since September 11, 2001, would have been much more difficult, if not impossible, without the USA Patriot Act. The authorities Congress provided have substantially enhanced our ability to prevent, investigate, and prosecute acts of terror.

[TheUntitled]

while usually I disagree with bush, I think that there are some liberties that have to be taken back in this day and age. And the administration is not talking about taping every single home, like some liberals think (or over-react) he is talking about known terrorists with links to al queda... or so we are told.

The whole problem with the spying is that the administration is given 75 hours after the tap to go to court to justify it... and they aren't doing that, which is where the problem lies.

I understand the point. But do you think that is absolutely the only thing they're using it for? I mean people are talking about how they used it for drug raids and all that other bullshit. I'm just saying, usually what the governement says, and what it actually does is another. IMO.


And how come everytime there's a cause for debate around here, a giant shit storm starts?

[avitabully]

you Americans are homosexuals

[splitsecond]

I heard Bush started a new special task force called, "The Redneck Force," all taken from his biggest supporting states. He is said to be sending this elite force over to Iraq today. They handed all of the 'Redneck Force' shotguns and said, "these are the ones responsible for Dale Earnhardt's death" .... the war should be over in 24 hours.

If someone else made this statement, and replaced Redneck with ghetto, and dale earnhardt with tupac you or some other liberal would call them racist.

But its OK to be bigotted against "rednecks".

[normitron]

tate can u ever put anything positive about bush! EVER its evident you hate em but put both sides of a story how bout mention that his approval rating just leaped upwads of ten points and what he did is legal and as long as your doing anything shady like planning bombs then quit your bitching you will never knowif u were spied on or not..

Bush has done good things?

[normitron]

If someone else made this statement, and replaced Redneck with ghetto, and dale earnhardt with tupac you or some other liberal would call them racist.

But its OK to be bigotted against "rednecks".

its not bigotry its irony.

[Rohan Kohli]

HAHAHAH hilarious. Fucking Nascar fans.

Hey now.

[Manbotisdead]

If someone else made this statement, and replaced Redneck with ghetto, and dale earnhardt with tupac you or some other liberal would call them racist.

But its OK to be bigotted against "rednecks".

Yep 100% acceptable.

I hate everyone.

[thisgetupkid]

Yep 100% acceptable.

I hate everyone.

but I love you!

[Cottage Cheese]

"Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution."
- George W. Bush (April 20, 2004)

[Rohan Kohli]

"Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution."
- George W. Bush (April 20, 2004)

:pwned:

[JacksColdSweat]

sometimes i wish that they planted WMDs, I would feel much safer with our government.

[Jason Tate]

this is an informative read about things the patriot can doo.. i can agree with anyones opinion about the privacy thing but like i said you have to be doing some shady stuff to begin with to get attention



The USA PATRIOT Act: Preserving Life and Liberty
(Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism)




http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/images3/check.gif Congress enacted the Patriot Act by overwhelming, bipartisan margins, arming law enforcement with new tools to detect and prevent terrorism: The USA Patriot Act was passed nearly unanimously by the Senate 98-1, and 357-66 in the House, with the support of members from across the political spectrum.
The Act Improves Our Counter-Terrorism Efforts in Several Significant Ways:
1. The Patriot Act allows investigators to use the tools that were already available to investigate organized crime and drug trafficking. Many of the tools the Act provides to law enforcement to fight terrorism have been used for decades to fight organized crime and drug dealers, and have been reviewed and approved by the courts. As Sen. Joe Biden (D-DE) explained during the floor debate about the Act, "the FBI could get a wiretap to investigate the mafia, but they could not get one to investigate terrorists. To put it bluntly, that was crazy! What's good for the mob should be good for terrorists." (Cong. Rec., 10/25/01)

Allows law enforcement to use surveillance against more crimes of terror. Before the Patriot Act, courts could permit law enforcement to conduct electronic surveillance to investigate many ordinary, non-terrorism crimes, such as drug crimes, mail fraud, and passport fraud. Agents also could obtain wiretaps to investigate some, but not all, of the crimes that terrorists often commit. The Act enabled investigators to gather information when looking into the full range of terrorism-related crimes, including: chemical-weapons offenses, the use of weapons of mass destruction, killing Americans abroad, and terrorism financing.
Allows federal agents to follow sophisticated terrorists trained to evade detection. For years, law enforcement has been able to use "roving wiretaps" to investigate ordinary crimes, including drug offenses and racketeering. A roving wiretap can be authorized by a federal judge to apply to a particular suspect, rather than a particular phone or communications device. Because international terrorists are sophisticated and trained to thwart surveillance by rapidly changing locations and communication devices such as cell phones, the Act authorized agents to seek court permission to use the same techniques in national security investigations to track terrorists.
Allows law enforcement to conduct investigations without tipping off terrorists. In some cases if criminals are tipped off too early to an investigation, they might flee, destroy evidence, intimidate or kill witnesses, cut off contact with associates, or take other action to evade arrest. Therefore, federal courts in narrow circumstances long have allowed law enforcement to delay for a limited time when the subject is told that a judicially-approved search warrant has been executed. Notice is always provided, but the reasonable delay gives law enforcement time to identify the criminal's associates, eliminate immediate threats to our communities, and coordinate the arrests of multiple individuals without tipping them off beforehand. These delayed notification search warrants have been used for decades, have proven crucial in drug and organized crime cases, and have been upheld by courts as fully constitutional.
Allows federal agents to ask a court for an order to obtain business records in national security terrorism cases. Examining business records often provides the key that investigators are looking for to solve a wide range of crimes. Investigators might seek select records from hardware stores or chemical plants, for example, to find out who bought materials to make a bomb, or bank records to see who's sending money to terrorists. Law enforcement authorities have always been able to obtain business records in criminal cases through grand jury subpoenas, and continue to do so in national security cases where appropriate. These records were sought in criminal cases such as the investigation of the Zodiac gunman, where police suspected the gunman was inspired by a Scottish occult poet, and wanted to learn who had checked the poet's books out of the library. In national security cases where use of the grand jury process was not appropriate, investigators previously had limited tools at their disposal to obtain certain business records. Under the Patriot Act, the government can now ask a federal court (the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court), if needed to aid an investigation, to order production of the same type of records available through grand jury subpoenas. This federal court, however, can issue these orders only after the government demonstrates the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a U.S. person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a U.S. person is not conducted solely on the basis of activities protected by the First Amendment.2. The Patriot Act facilitated information sharing and cooperation among government agencies so that they can better "connect the dots." The Act removed the major legal barriers that prevented the law enforcement, intelligence, and national defense communities from talking and coordinating their work to protect the American people and our national security. The government's prevention efforts should not be restricted by boxes on an organizational chart. Now police officers, FBI agents, federal prosecutors and intelligence officials can protect our communities by "connecting the dots" to uncover terrorist plots before they are completed. As Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.) said about the Patriot Act, "we simply cannot prevail in the battle against terrorism if the right hand of our government has no idea what the left hand is doing." (Press release, 10/26/01)

Prosecutors can now share evidence obtained through grand juries with intelligence officials -- and intelligence information can now be shared more easily with federal prosecutors. Such sharing of information leads to concrete results. For example, a federal grand jury recently indicted an individual in Florida, Sami al-Arian, for allegedly being the U.S. leader of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, one of the world's most violent terrorist outfits. Palestinian Islamic Jihad is responsible for murdering more than 100 innocent people, including a young American named Alisa Flatow who was killed in a tragic bus bombing in Gaza. The Patriot Act assisted us in obtaining the indictment by enabling the full sharing of information and advice about the case among prosecutors and investigators. Alisa's father, Steven Flatow, has said, "When you know the resources of your government are committed to right the wrongs committed against your daughter, that instills you with a sense of awe. As a father you can't ask for anything more."3. The Patriot Act updated the law to reflect new technologies and new threats. The Act brought the law up to date with current technology, so we no longer have to fight a digital-age battle with antique weapons-legal authorities leftover from the era of rotary telephones. When investigating the murder of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, for example, law enforcement used one of the Act's new authorities to use high-tech means to identify and locate some of the killers.

Allows law enforcement officials to obtain a search warrant anywhere a terrorist-related activity occurred. Before the Patriot Act, law enforcement personnel were required to obtain a search warrant in the district where they intended to conduct a search. However, modern terrorism investigations often span a number of districts, and officers therefore had to obtain multiple warrants in multiple jurisdictions, creating unnecessary delays. The Act provides that warrants can be obtained in any district in which terrorism-related activities occurred, regardless of where they will be executed. This provision does not change the standards governing the availability of a search warrant, but streamlines the search-warrant process.
Allows victims of computer hacking to request law enforcement assistance in monitoring the "trespassers" on their computers. This change made the law technology-neutral; it placed electronic trespassers on the same footing as physical trespassers. Now, hacking victims can seek law enforcement assistance to combat hackers, just as burglary victims have been able to invite officers into their homes to catch burglars.4. The Patriot Act increased the penalties for those who commit terrorist crimes. Americans are threatened as much by the terrorist who pays for a bomb as by the one who pushes the button. That's why the Patriot Act imposed tough new penalties on those who commit and support terrorist operations, both at home and abroad. In particular, the Act:

Prohibits the harboring of terrorists. The Act created a new offense that prohibits knowingly harboring persons who have committed or are about to commit a variety of terrorist offenses, such as: destruction of aircraft; use of nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons; use of weapons of mass destruction; bombing of government property; sabotage of nuclear facilities; and aircraft piracy.
Enhanced the inadequate maximum penalties for various crimes likely to be committed by terrorists: including arson, destruction of energy facilities, material support to terrorists and terrorist organizations, and destruction of national-defense materials.
Enhanced a number of conspiracy penalties, including for arson, killings in federal facilities, attacking communications systems, material support to terrorists, sabotage of nuclear facilities, and interference with flight crew members. Under previous law, many terrorism statutes did not specifically prohibit engaging in conspiracies to commit the underlying offenses. In such cases, the government could only bring prosecutions under the general federal conspiracy provision, which carries a maximum penalty of only five years in prison.
Punishes terrorist attacks on mass transit systems.
Punishes bioterrorists.
Eliminates the statutes of limitations for certain terrorism crimes and lengthens them for other terrorist crimes.The government's success in preventing another catastrophic attack on the American homeland since September 11, 2001, would have been much more difficult, if not impossible, without the USA Patriot Act. The authorities Congress provided have substantially enhanced our ability to prevent, investigate, and prosecute acts of terror.
Wow, you simply copy and pasted lifeandliberty.org (already debunked/discussed earlier in this thread by a post I made).

Kidding me right now?

[Jason Tate]

Why would they admit this before it leaked? They'd basically just be telling terrorists to make sure they don't say anything over the phone.

I honestly don't care if I lose a little bit of privacy. I have nothing to hide.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." - Benjamin Franklin

[hmmmmmm]

This is a hard time for America. Instead of trying to make the best we can of it and uplift one another, we bring each other down. Maybe Bush has'nt made the best decisions and you don't have to agree with them but atleast give some respect to our nations leader. I wish we all had the chance to sit in his seat for 1 day and then maybe we would realize that it is not as easy as it looks. How can we tear down Bush then look back at our last President who lied to the whole American public but everyone loves him. All I am asking is some respect for our Presidant and each other. R-E-S-P-E-C-T!

I like AP.net for music not Politics. Can all the politcal post be made in forums?

[Jason Tate]

If someone else made this statement, and replaced Redneck with ghetto, and dale earnhardt with tupac you or some other liberal would call them racist.

But its OK to be bigotted against "rednecks".
I'm a redneck racist? Hmmm... it's a joke. And, I hate liberals and conservatives - I just tend to agree with more of the liberal thinking.

[Jason Tate]

This is a hard time for America. Instead of trying to make the best we can of it and uplift one another, we bring each other down. Maybe Bush has'nt made the best decisions and you don't have to agree with them but atleast give some respect to our nations leader. I wish we all had the chance to sit in his seat for 1 day and then maybe we would realize that it is not as easy as it looks. How can we tear down Bush then look back at our last President who lied to the whole American public but everyone loves him. All I am asking is some respect for our Presidant and each other. R-E-S-P-E-C-T!

I like AP.net for music not Politics. Can all the politcal post be made in forums?
Lying about a blow-job makes Clinton a douche-bag, lying about why we went to war makes Bush a criminal. People died when Bush lied - it's simple as that. I refuse to respect Clinton for his lifestyle choices (but respect many of his presidential decisions), and I refuse to respect Bush for his presidential choices (but respect some of his lifestyle choices). Bad guy/good President vs Good guy/bad President. I want a good President. That's my decision.

And AP.net is AP.net, we don't just post about music and that policy probably isn't going to change anytime soon. Our country's future shouldn't be shoved to the back of people's minds. It's important that everyone be educated one what is going on in this world.

[thesego211]

i agree with jason tate. his approvl ratings were at a low of 34%. 34%!! No matter that half the country and the world already hates him, but even his redneck friends are slowly leaving him. You wanna know why gas prices were so high? no not because of a shortage, but b/c theres only 9 miles a gallon for war tanks which r currently being used in Iraq. Also his great "No child left behind law" has totallyyyyyy worked wonders on the NY state school system. now i have SPED kids in my guitar class, who don't even know how to hold a guitar. If u love bush so much, please elaborate how his "Great" reign has gone. u tell us the good facts and not that lame one about his approval raings jumping up 10 percent from 34%. Thats still in the 40's hunny bunches. NOT TO SOUND MEAN or anything, just putting in my 2cents. :music:

o yeah, kerry ain't too good either, i wish Gore was around. he rocked. Kerry smiles wayy too much. and if u guys knew anything about politics, you can see that only southern democrats have won in the past years. i.e. Clnton, he's from good 'ol Alabama and he won as a demi.

do you know that the No Child Left Behind legislation was written by Ted Kennedy, you fucking idiot? that was an attempt by bush to cooperate with the left of our country. give him credit for something.

[hmmmmmm]

I wonder how Clinton would have handled the last 5 years........pffhahaha

[Jason Tate]

I wonder how Clinton would have handled the last 5 years........pffhahaha
I have serious doubts anyone could have handled it worse.

[thesego211]

Lying about a blow-job makes Clinton a douche-bag, lying about why we went to war makes Bush a criminal. People died when Bush lied - it's simple as that. I refuse to respect Clinton for his lifestyle choices (but respect many of his presidential decisions), and I refuse to respect Bush for his presidential choices (but respect some of his lifestyle choices). Bad guy/good President vs Good guy/bad President. I want a good President. That's my decision.
so you don't think that what clinton did to Bosnia was a cover up for his little blow job on the side? that's a crime my friend. you may think that bush is dumb, but do you think he's dumb enough to have this thought enter his mind, "you know what would be a really good political strategy? if i lied about intelligence and got us into a war where thousands of Americans would die! i'm gonna do that, i'll be re-elected for sure!" i'd also like to point out that France, Germany, Britain, Spain, Kerry, Kennedy, and Gore all said that Sadaam had weapons and was a threat...also, i hate it when people say "when bush lied, people died" what a stupid/closed minded view. here is my response: when clinton was busy getting blow jobs from fat chicks, 9/11 was being planned. but clinton was too busy weakening our military and paralyzing our country's ability to defend itself (i.e. the appointment of Ruth Bader-Ginsberg to the Supreme Court). try thinking for yourself, it is so easy to be a young liberal in our country today, you don't even need to have common sense.

[Jason Tate]

do you know that the No Child Left Behind legislation was written by Ted Kennedy, you fucking idiot? that was an attempt by bush to cooperate with the left of our country. give him credit for something.
That's because very rarely do Presidents "write" legislation. It's still a horrible act, regardless of who wrote it or signed it into law.

[andrewlterry]

I heard Bush started a new special task force called, "The Redneck Force," all taken from his biggest supporting states. He is said to be sending this elite force over to Iraq today. They handed all of the 'Redneck Force' shotguns and said, "these are the ones responsible for Dale Earnhardt's death" .... the war should be over in 24 hours.
I'm dissapointed in you Tate. We use to have civil political discussions here once in awhile. It's not like you to be making these kinds of bashes. I know there's a lot of unintelligent, ignorant people in here and it's easy to get angry, but come on now. Believe it or not, a lot of the younger kids who are big fans of your site look up to you. Let's keep the slurs to a minimum. Thanks man.

[Lerok22]

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." - Benjamin Franklin

That's one man's opinion. Other founding fathers felt differently.

And plus, I wouldn't consider this an "essential" right. I'd be bothered if the government sat in my house watching me but the fact that they may listen to a few minutes of a phone call for our safety every once in a while I wouldn't consider violating an essential right. I doubt the government cares as much as everybody seems to think, about listening to random conversations for no reason.

[Jason Tate]

so you don't think that what clinton did to Bosnia was a cover up for his little blow job on the side? that's a crime my friend. you may think that bush is dumb, but do you think he's dumb enough to have this thought enter his mind, "you know what would be a really good political strategy? if i lied about intelligence and got us into a war where thousands of Americans would die! i'm gonna do that, i'll be re-elected for sure!" i'd also like to point out that France, Germany, Britain, Spain, Kerry, Kennedy, and Gore all said that Sadaam had weapons and was a threat...also, i hate it when people say "when bush lied, people died" what a stupid/closed minded view. here is my response: when clinton was busy getting blow jobs from fat chicks, 9/11 was being planned. but clinton was too busy weakening our military and paralyzing our country's ability to defend itself (i.e. the appointment of Ruth Bader-Ginsberg to the Supreme Court). try thinking for yourself, it is so easy to be a young liberal in our country today, you don't even need to have common sense.

No, I don't think what Clinton did to Bosnia was a cover up for a blow-job. In fact, your meanderings are the first time that thought had ever crossed my mind. That's shocking for a few reasons, 1) because I read a whole lot of conservative press, 2) I am not a very big Clinton supporter. I don't think Bush had any of those thoughts in his mind, I never claimed he did. You're attempt to construct a straw man to argue is flattering, but weak logically. I think the idea was put forth by his close advisers because it's been documented that he spoke, "find me a way to get Saddam" early in his career. And, for your little tirade about 9/11 being planned while Clinton was in office, you are completely right. 100%! And guess what, when he handed the White House over to Bush he said, in no unconditional terms, "Terrorism should be your #1 priority - here is all the intelligence we have on the subject" - turns out that included a document titled, "Bin Laden to plan attacks inside the United States." Guess who failed to act on that? Yeah. And why? Most likely because when a new political party usually enters office they do all they can to distance themselves from the past administrations top priorities. So they shelved it for a little while.

It's so easy to be a young conservative in our country today, all you have to do is turn on Fox. Don't sit here and patronize me as if I haven't done the research and come to my political belief after much thought and duress. I hate both parties, I simply side more with some of what the "liberal" party focuses on.

[Jason Tate]

I'm dissapointed in you Tate. We use to have civil political discussions here once in awhile. It's not like you to be making these kinds of bashes. I know there's a lot of unintelligent, ignorant people in here and it's easy to get angry, but come on now. Believe it or not, a lot of the younger kids who are big fans of your site look up to you. Let's keep the slurs to a minimum. Thanks man.
Redneck slurs? Can you actually call it a slur? I mean, it's a fucking Jeff Foxworthy joke dude. People can look up to me all they want, and hate me just the same - I just hope they don't watch NASCAR. TURN LEFT! Chill.

[Jason Tate]

That's one man's opinion. Other founding fathers felt differently.

And plus, I wouldn't consider this an "essential" right. I'd be bothered if the government sat in my house watching me but the fact that they may listen to a few minutes of a phone call for our safety every once in a while I wouldn't consider violating an essential right. I doubt the government cares as much as everybody seems to think, about listening to random conversations for no reason.
I don't think they are interested in that either, that's not the point - the point is the precedent it sets, and the mindset that they can get away with doing it. That's my point. I'm not actually worried my phone calls are going to be tapped - I'm never running for office, and I have nothing to hide. I simply don't think it's the right thing to do. And I don't think our government should be preaching democracy and liberty to other nations when we have taken obvious steps toward limiting those factions in our own country.

A letter from Howard Dean treads along the same lines as my thinking, "In an interview on Monday, Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez admitted that the administration asked certain Members of Congress about getting a new law to allow spying on Americans without a warrant. Realizing that even a Republican-controlled Congress wouldn't authorize such a measure, they decided to manipulate current law and proceed with the program anyway.

Manipulation of a law like this is dangerous. The same Office of Legal Counsel used vague assertions of sweeping authority in the infamous torture memos. The victim of this reasoning is the rule of law itself -- when this administration asserts sweeping authority to step over any line of legality, it asserts that there are no lines at all."

Even a variety of well-respected Republican/Conservatives are concerned about this .. that should say enough.

[Rohan Kohli]

Redneck slurs? Can you actually call it a slur? I mean, it's a fucking Jeff Foxworthy joke dude. People can look up to me all they want, and hate me just the same - I just hope they don't watch NASCAR. TURN LEFT!

No you di'int.

[andrewlterry]

Ya know what, if the government wants to get into my business (a 21 year old college student), so be it. I really don't care if a bunch of people are offended by a "lack of privacy" if it leads to the prevention of a terrorist attack. Like it or not, we are at war (even if the war is for the "wrong" reasons). Things are different during war time. Maybe we all don't understand, because all of us haven't been alive (or at least consciously aware of war) during war time. If this war is going to be won (which is what has to be done now), certain steps need to be taken. That's just what I think.

[billcom7]

You do know there are road courses on the NASCAR circuit, which involve turning right and left?

J/K, J/K

[andrewlterry]

Redneck slurs? Can you actually call it a slur? I mean, it's a fucking Jeff Foxworthy joke dude. People can look up to me all they want, and hate me just the same - I just hope they don't watch NASCAR. TURN LEFT! Chill.
lol true

[Jason Tate]

Ya know what, if the government wants to get into my business (a 21 year old college student), so be it. I really don't care if a bunch of people are offended by a "lack of privacy" if it leads to the prevention of a terrorist attack. Like it or not, we are at war (even if the war is for the "wrong" reasons). Things are different during war time. Maybe we all don't understand, because all of us haven't been alive (or at least consciously aware of war) during war time. If this war is going to be won (which is what has to be done now), certain steps need to be taken. That's just what I think.

:\

That's a misconception that scares me to my core.

[Jason Tate]

No you di'int.
Hahahahaha..

[andrewlterry]

:\

That's a misconception that scares me to my core.
Then that's too bad if you value your own privacy over lives.

[xshady121]

Actually, the patriot act isn't what's being cited here. His "war-time" abilities/powers September 14th Resolution (to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organisations, or persons he determines planned, authorised, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11 2001, or harboured such organisations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organisations or persons), are what they're saying gave him the right to bypass FISA warrants. The main thing is, a FISA warrant can approve a wiretap retrospectively but the administration decided that even this would be too slow. That's what's not right, and it's not necessary or approrpriate force. They completely disregarded the law. Presidents have been impeached for less.

Second, I don't see any "bashing" going on, I see a simple display of facts and opinions from some of the most well-respected political figures in this country. I think you should take a closer look at what precedents are being set right under your noise .. unless you're really willing to give up liberty for the guise of security.

And I must have missed any news about us putting a Democracy in Afganistan, I believe that was Iraq; I could be wrong .. but maybe you suffering from the common Republican mistake of which country was actually responsible for 9/11 and why we went there?

A 10 point climb from record lows, isn't described as a "jump" by anyone other than apologists; and means basically nothing. A stats class will explain polls better than I can on a message board.

Tate I don't agree with your political views, but i like how your using facts to support your case and not just the typical FUCK BUSH! FUCK THE GOVERNMENT! stand most anti bush people say. And for this, Tate, I have gained a great amount of respect for you.

[andrewlterry]

Also, it's hard for me to believe that the government wants to spend it's time or money "spying" on people if it isn't important.

[thesego211]

No, I don't think what Clinton did to Bosnia was a cover up for a blow-job. In fact, your meanderings are the first time that thought had ever crossed my mind. That's shocking for a few reasons, 1) because I read a whole lot of conservative press, 2) I am not a very big Clinton supporter. I don't think Bush had any of those thoughts in his mind, I never claimed he did. You're attempt to construct a straw man to argue is flattering, but weak logically. I think the idea was put forth by his close advisers because it's been documented that he spoke, "find me a way to get Saddam" early in his career. And, for your little tirade about 9/11 being planned while Clinton was in office, you are completely right. 100%! And guess what, when he handed the White House over to Bush he said, in no unconditional terms, "Terrorism should be your #1 priority - here is all the intelligence we have on the subject" - turns out that included a document titled, "Bin Laden to plan attacks inside the United States." Guess who failed to act on that? Yeah. And why? Most likely because when a new political party usually enters office they do all they can to distance themselves from the past administrations top priorities. So they shelved it for a little while.

It's so easy to be a young conservative in our country today, all you have to do is turn on Fox. Don't sit here and patronize me as if I haven't done the research and come to my political belief after much thought and duress. I hate both parties, I simply side more with some of what the "liberal" party focuses on.

who cares if he said "find me a way to get to Sadaam?" do you have a problem with that? he has probably said the same thing about Bin Ladin. and if you have never heard theories about Clinton's bombing of Kosovo (sorry, i dont know why i said bosnia earlier, i got mixed up) being a way to divert attention from his own scandals, then you need to watch a station other than CNN. Bush got stuck with the job of rebuilding our depleted military after the clinton years, all that considered, he has done the best he could. and because he got a memo stating that "Bin Ladin plans to attack the U.S.," he was supposed to predict exactly what he would do and when he would do it? the same memo could be put on his desk every morning because that is Bin Ladin's goal every day.
it is so easy to be a young liberal today. all you have to do is agree with every band that you listen to, every movie star that you pay to see, and virtually every media outlet you choose (other than talk radio and FOX). don't patronize me either tate.

[Jason Tate]

Then that's too bad if you value your own privacy over lives.
Because history has shown us complete control over everyone's lives makes you safe? I think that's absurd. I think any historical look at China, Russia, the Middle East will show you that even when citizens are completely controlled from all levels and have no freedoms - people still die. To say that this is a sure-fire way to prevent more terrorist attacks is ignorant. As Noam Chomsky once said, "the only way to stop terrorism, is to stop participating in it." Look at that quote from all angles and realize the implications.

[thesego211]

:\

That's a misconception that scares me to my core.
a great example of the total lack on common sense demonstrated by the left of our country.

[andrewlterry]

,"the only way to stop terrorism, is to stop participating in it." Look at that quote from all angles and realize the implications.
I understand this, and it's pretty much true. But else can we do right now? If they find a possible terrorist , what should they do? Wait until they attack? Are you saying that fighting terrorism is pointless, and nothing should be done? Unless you tell me some other alternatives, I'm going to have to rely on the patroit act.

[Jason Tate]

who cares if he said "find me a way to get to Sadaam?" do you have a problem with that? he has probably said the same thing about Bin Ladin. and if you have never heard theories about Clinton's bombing of Kosovo (sorry, i dont know why i said bosnia earlier, i got mixed up) being a way to divert attention from his own scandals, then you need to watch a station other than CNN. Bush got stuck with the job of rebuilding our depleted military after the clinton years, all that considered, he has done the best he could. and because he got a memo stating that "Bin Ladin plans to attack the U.S.," he was supposed to predict exactly what he would do and when he would do it? the same memo could be put on his desk every morning because that is Bin Ladin's goal every day.
it is so easy to be a young liberal today. all you have to do is agree with every band that you listen to, every movie star that you pay to see, and virtually every media outlet you choose (other than talk radio and FOX). don't patronize me either tate.

I obviously don't have a problem with that, but there was a reason his father left him in power. It's clearly outlined in his memoirs. And, uhm, please don't tell me to turn off CNN when it is apparent that you've done no research into the actual memo he was given. Let's make it easy: planes, new york, hijackings - were all terms found in the memo. And Bush didn't get "stuck" rebuilding our military, he made a conscious decision.

As for Clinton diverting attention from a horrendously over-payed "inquisition" into a blow-job, I really don't give that much of a fuck. Seriously. It's sex, it's lying about sex. It's something I'd say 99% of males do on a yearly basis. I don't think something that's in the past, and he was impeached for, is actually that worthy of discussion. It seems more like you're using it as a diversion tactic instead of discussing the actual troop/civilian deaths in Iraq.

[thesego211]

Because history has shown us complete control over everyone's lives makes you safe? I think that's absurd. I think any historical look at China, Russia, the Middle East will show you that even when citizens are completely controlled from all levels and have no freedoms - people still die. To say that this is a sure-fire way to prevent more terrorist attacks is ignorant. As Noam Chomsky once said, "the only way to stop terrorism, is to stop participating in it." Look at that quote from all angles and realize the implications.
who said anything about "complete control?" where are you getting that? if they want to listen to 15 seconds of your phone conversation to your mother they are gaining complete control over your life? this is unbelievable to me. sometimes you have to give to get. in order to gain saftey and protection from our government, we may have to allow them to listen to us calling a friend and telling them that we will meet them at the show in 15 mins. who cares? this is so trivial..

[andrewlterry]

Because history has shown us complete control over everyone's lives makes you safe? I think that's absurd. I think any historical look at China, Russia, the Middle East will show you that even when citizens are completely controlled from all levels and have no freedoms - people still die. To say that this is a sure-fire way to prevent more terrorist attacks is ignorant. As Noam Chomsky once said, "the only way to stop terrorism, is to stop participating in it." Look at that quote from all angles and realize the implications.
And please don't even say this is complete control over our lives. It is nowhere near the oppression that the chinese, russians, etc. have gone through. That is wrong to compare ourselves to them.

[Jason Tate]

I understand this, and it's pretty much true. But else can we do right now? If they find a possible terrorist , what should they do? Wait until they attack? Are you saying that fighting terrorism is pointless, and nothing should be done? Unless you tell me some other alternatives, I'm going to have to rely on the patroit act.
Fighting terrorism, is like fighting the war on drugs. You don't win. You create a never ending cycle. You can't fight an ideology with bombs, you have to fight an ideology with education and understanding. That's my belief. However, it really comes down to my thoughts that we never should have been over there in the first place ... if we weren't we wouldn't have given Bin Laden the first weapons (to fight the soviets) and then we wouldn't have pissed off Bin Laden in the end leading to 9/11. I guess I adhere more to an isolationist viewpoint on some things because I find it un-fair that if I decide we should meddle in foreign affairs (for whatever reason), we're sending other people's kids (and very rarely the rich ones) over there to do "my" will.

[Hidenothing27]

Lying about a blow-job makes Clinton a douche-bag, lying about why we went to war makes Bush a criminal. People died when Bush lied - it's simple as that. I refuse to respect Clinton for his lifestyle choices (but respect many of his presidential decisions), and I refuse to respect Bush for his presidential choices (but respect some of his lifestyle choices). Bad guy/good President vs Good guy/bad President. I want a good President. That's my decision.

And AP.net is AP.net, we don't just post about music and that policy probably isn't going to change anytime soon. Our country's future shouldn't be shoved to the back of people's minds. It's important that everyone be educated one what is going on in this world.



"educated on what is going on in the world".. dude thats bullshit according to who, you? you post the articles you want and the ones that suit your needs.. give me a break.. break me off a piece of that kit kat bar

[thesego211]

I obviously don't have a problem with that, but there was a reason his father left him in power. It's clearly outlined in his memoirs. And, uhm, please don't tell me to turn off CNN when it is apparent that you've done no research into the actual memo he was given. Let's make it easy: planes, new york, hijackings - were all terms found in the memo. And Bush didn't get "stuck" rebuilding our military, he made a conscious decision.

As for Clinton diverting attention from a horrendously over-payed "inquisition" into a blow-job, I really don't give that much of a fuck. Seriously. It's sex, it's lying about sex. It's something I'd say 99% of males do on a yearly basis. I don't think something that's in the past, and he was impeached for, is actually that worthy of discussion. It seems more like you're using it as a diversion tactic instead of discussing the actual troop/civilian deaths in Iraq.
actually, diversion tactics aren't my specialty, they are clinton's. let's all just remember that there hasn't been a terrorist attack in this country since 9/11, so now we are doing something right. but we have to keep up what we have been doing, it works.

And Bush didn't get "stuck" rebuilding our military, he made a conscious decision.
what does that mean?

and yes, i know why the last Bush left Sadaam in power, it benefited america at the time. i know my history too, tate. we left him there to fight off the Iranians, who, at the time, posed a far greater threat to America that Iraq did. things change with time. also, it's not just that clinton got a blow job from a woman who wasn't his wife, it's that he did it on the job, in the oval office, while being payed by the American people, and then he lied about it to a federal grand jury (all this together perfectly incapsulates the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the left, because they defend him).

[Jason Tate]

who said anything about "complete control?" where are you getting that? if they want to listen to 15 seconds of your phone conversation to your mother they are gaining complete control over your life? this is unbelievable to me. sometimes you have to give to get. in order to gain saftey and protection from our government, we may have to allow them to listen to us calling a friend and telling them that we will meet them at the show in 15 mins. who cares? this is so trivial..
And you're absolutely missing the entire point of everything I've said up until this point. I don't know how to make any of what I've said any clearer. It's not about what's happening today, it's not about a 15 minute phone call, that's what you need to understand. You need to look at the bigger picture, the information they're probably not telling you, plus the precedent and complete disregard for the structure of law we have in place. When you've crossed a line and aren't called on it, it makes it easier to cross this line again in the future. Notice how the same committee in charge of the infamous torture memos were in charge of this as well. I think that we as a country need to set forth OPEN standards for what our country is okay with. If the majority of the population is willing to give up freedoms for security, then that's something I, in the minority, would have to agree with. However, I don't think that having the President possibly breaking the law to do it - is right. And I don't think that preaching liberty to other nations while removing it at home - is right. I've said this a few times throughout this thread, and hope for once you read what I'm saying.

[thesego211]

"educated on what is going on in the world".. dude thats bullshit according to who, you? you post the articles you want and the ones that suit your needs.. give me a break.. break me off a piece of that kit kat bar
couldn't agree more. tate never posts any news articles that might make bush, or america, look good. i don't want to be "educated on what is going on in tate's world."

[fortyparachutes]

It's so easy to be a young conservative in our country today, all you have to do is turn on Fox. Don't sit here and patronize me as if I haven't done the research and come to my political belief after much thought and duress.

Simply not true. First off, the only reason Fox seems conservative is because all the other news networks are so liberal. I've watched Fox plenty of times, it attempts to be fairly balanced in its reporting. So don't call it a conservative network, its just not liberal.

I really do appreciate that you have done your homework, Tate. However, people with the same information can take two completely different stances. Agree to disagree.

Cause and effect is not immediate. Many of the problems that we saw during Bush, including some terrorism problems, were results of the Clinton administration. 9/11 occured less than a year after Bush came into office.

[Jason Tate]

actually, diversion tactics aren't my specialty, they are clinton's. let's all just remember that there hasn't been a terrorist attack in this country since 9/11, so now we are doing something right. but we have to keep up what we have been doing, it works.

And Bush didn't get "stuck" rebuilding our military, he made a conscious decision.
what does that mean?

and yes, i know why the last Bush left Sadaam in power, it benefited america at the time. i know my history too, tate. we left him there to fight off the Iranians, who, at the time, posed a far greater threat to America that Iraq did. things change with time. also, it's not just that clinton got a blow job from a woman who wasn't his wife, it's that he did it on the job, in the oval office, while being payed by the American people, and then he lied about it to a federal grand jury (all this together perfectly incapsulates the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the left, because they defend him).
By your twisted logic because we hadn't had one on US soil up until 9/11 would mean Clinton and all the previous Presidents were doing the right thing. It was only when Bush took office that we had one. I'm sorry, but your logic, and my take on your logic are both wrong.

I enjoyed your Reilly quote at the end of your tirade, and I'll admit that I have few morals that mean much to me. To be honest the morality and sexual exploits of my President are about as far down on the list as I can put them. I think it's wrong for anyone to put the betterment of the nation behind the "God" or "moral/values." We need values, but we don't need our President to be the one to tell us how to live. Never before have we looked to the POTUS as a beacon for how we should live our lives -- why is Clinton held to this standard? Really, I must inquire, why you care so much about this blow-job? You're obviously more intrigued by it's bankruptcy of our nations values then you are about the murders, manipulations, and very conservative "values" that have literally bankrupted our nations banks. Enron, Worldcom, et al.

[Hidenothing27]

Because history has shown us complete control over everyone's lives makes you safe? I think that's absurd. I think any historical look at China, Russia, the Middle East will show you that even when citizens are completely controlled from all levels and have no freedoms - people still die. To say that this is a sure-fire way to prevent more terrorist attacks is ignorant. As Noam Chomsky once said, "the only way to stop terrorism, is to stop participating in it." Look at that quote from all angles and realize the implications.


just a quick question... now that we have hussein in custody and since you dont think it was right invading iraq which i can understand do u think its better that we have him or should we just release him.. cause he is in no way a threat to us right?

[Jason Tate]

Simply not true. First off, the only reason Fox seems conservative is because all the other news networks are so liberal. I've watched Fox plenty of times, it attempts to be fairly balanced in its reporting. So don't call it a conservative network, its just not liberal.

I really do appreciate that you have done your homework, Tate. However, people with the same information can take two completely different stances. Agree to disagree.

Cause and effect is not immediate. Many of the problems that we saw during Bush, including some terrorism problems, were results of the Clinton administration. 9/11 occured less than a year after Bush came into office.
Eh, there is a documentary called "Outfoxed" - you should watch it. It's all actual Fox news-clips .. it's quite hillarious and I'll never be able to listen to anyone say Fox isn't disconnected with reality after seeing it.

[thesego211]

Fighting terrorism, is like fighting the war on drugs. You don't win. You create a never ending cycle. You can't fight an ideology with bombs, you have to fight an ideology with education and understanding. That's my belief. However, it really comes down to my thoughts that we never should have been over there in the first place ... if we weren't we wouldn't have given Bin Laden the first weapons (to fight the soviets) and then we wouldn't have pissed off Bin Laden in the end leading to 9/11. I guess I adhere more to an isolationist viewpoint on some things because I find it un-fair that if I decide we should meddle in foreign affairs (for whatever reason), we're sending other people's kids (and very rarely the rich ones) over there to do "my" will.
just so you know, the terrorists attacked our country before we were "over there." and we had to give Afganistan weapons to fight the soviets, you know that. that was a war that we had to win, and America has used countries in the middle east as chess pieces for a long time now.

if we weren't we wouldn't have given Bin Laden the first weapons (to fight the soviets) and then we wouldn't have pissed off Bin Laden in the end leading to 9/11.
and Bin Ladin didn't use any weapons that we gave to Afganistan in the 9/11 attacks. what are you talking about?

also, that is really cute that you think we can defeat terrorists by talking nice to them, educating them, and loving them. it doesn't work like that in the real world, tate. wake up. they are savages, you don't try to talk sense to them. we didn't try to talk sense to the third reich, and we can't do it here either. look at their history, all they understand is violence. Nazi-ism was just as much of an ideology as Islamo-Fascism is today. but you don't believe we can win, just like most of the left of our country. when these kind of remarks are made by people with actual influence (not you, but senators and congressmen), it only emboldens the enemy.

[andrewlterry]

Fighting terrorism, is like fighting the war on drugs. You don't win. You create a never ending cycle. You can't fight an ideology with bombs, you have to fight an ideology with education and understanding. That's my belief. However, it really comes down to my thoughts that we never should have been over there in the first place ... if we weren't we wouldn't have given Bin Laden the first weapons (to fight the soviets) and then we wouldn't have pissed off Bin Laden in the end leading to 9/11. I guess I adhere more to an isolationist viewpoint on some things because I find it un-fair that if I decide we should meddle in foreign affairs (for whatever reason), we're sending other people's kids (and very rarely the rich ones) over there to do "my" will.
Isolationism (especially with a great country that we have with our means) is basically cowardice. Almost racist. I feel it's racist to not help oppressed people in the world. 2 of the greatest terrorists that have ever been known (Stalin and Hitler) oppressed millions. Should we have "understood" them? Ok yes 30,000 civilian iraqi's are dead. 20 million russians, and 12 million european civilians died in WW2. This is a bold statement, but I believe this country was blessed by god with the means we have been given. Why waste it? The goal of radical islam, according to the major islamic websites, is to create a muslim world by all means neccessary. And all "non-believers" don't deserve to live. And i remind you this is RADICAL islam. Traditional islamists are peaceful people, and this war is not against them.

[avitabully]

actually, diversion tactics aren't my specialty, they are clinton's. let's all just remember that there hasn't been a terrorist attack in this country since 9/11, so now we are doing something right. but we have to keep up what we have been doing, it works.

And Bush didn't get "stuck" rebuilding our military, he made a conscious decision.
what does that mean?

and yes, i know why the last Bush left Sadaam in power, it benefited america at the time. i know my history too, tate. we left him there to fight off the Iranians, who, at the time, posed a far greater threat to America that Iraq did. things change with time. also, it's not just that clinton got a blow job from a woman who wasn't his wife, it's that he did it on the job, in the oval office, while being payed by the American people, and then he lied about it to a federal grand jury (all this together perfectly incapsulates the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the left, because they defend him).

hah. do they sell you in a box with the words Summer's Eve on the front?

[Jason Tate]

just a quick question... now that we have hussein in custody and since you dont think it was right invading iraq which i can understand do u think its better that we have him or should we just release him.. cause he is in no way a threat to us right?
Do you take cues from Limbaugh's show? I mean, seriously, it's like a parrot of what he asks call-ins. Anyways, I wrote a 3 paragraph response to this question in one of the earlier political threads. I don't remember which one, so I'll allow you to go search for the answer.

[thesego211]

Eh, there is a documentary called "Outfoxed" - you should watch it. It's all actual Fox news-clips .. it's quite hillarious and I'll never be able to listen to anyone say Fox isn't disconnected with reality after seeing it.
i'm curious if you've ever seen any documentaries uncovering the many lies and myths perpetuated by the liberal media in our country? or do you just reccommend that we on the right check that kind of stuff out?

[Hidenothing27]

I obviously don't have a problem with that, but there was a reason his father left him in power. It's clearly outlined in his memoirs. And, uhm, please don't tell me to turn off CNN when it is apparent that you've done no research into the actual memo he was given. Let's make it easy: planes, new york, hijackings - were all terms found in the memo. And Bush didn't get "stuck" rebuilding our military, he made a conscious decision.

As for Clinton diverting attention from a horrendously over-payed "inquisition" into a blow-job, I really don't give that much of a fuck. Seriously. It's sex, it's lying about sex. It's something I'd say 99% of males do on a yearly basis. I don't think something that's in the past, and he was impeached for, is actually that worthy of discussion. It seems more like you're using it as a diversion tactic instead of discussing the actual troop/civilian deaths in Iraq.


lying about sex to the nation none the less... that cost us A. millions of dallars (now dont go and throw the war of iraq cost us this much) made a mockery of a president.. they dont do many snl skits with george and iraq do they,, and it sets a PRECEDENT that you can unfaithfull to your wife with an intern as the leader of our nation.. i dont care if he was best president ever.. being a leader is being a leader on "the field and off the field" obviously he showed our nation what his regaurds for women were and what his favorite sex toy was...

[Jason Tate]

just so you know, the terrorists attacked our country before we were "over there." and we had to give Afganistan weapons to fight the soviets, you know that. that was a war that we had to win, and America has used countries in the middle east as chess pieces for a long time now.

if we weren't we wouldn't have given Bin Laden the first weapons (to fight the soviets) and then we wouldn't have pissed off Bin Laden in the end leading to 9/11.
and Bin Ladin didn't use any weapons that we gave to Afganistan in the 9/11 attacks. what are you talking about?

also, that is really cute that you think we can defeat terrorists by talking nice to them, educating them, and loving them. it doesn't work like that in the real world, tate. wake up. they are savages, you don't try to talk sense to them. we didn't try to talk sense to the third reich, and we can't do it here either. look at their history, all they understand is violence. Nazi-ism was just as much of an ideology as Islamo-Fascism is today. but you don't believe we can win, just like most of the left of our country. when these kind of remarks are made by people with actual influence (not you, but senators and congressmen), it only emboldens the enemy.

Wow. I don't think I have it in me to discuss this topic any further when it's clear that you've completly skipped out on a large part of American history. The things you bring up are so incredible that it shocks me how after typing them you didn't realize how wrong you are.

I'm shocked by the word "savage" - it reminds me of the words thrown toward native-americans when we first settled on this continent. At least you Godwin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)'d the thread.

[andrewlterry]

And you're absolutely missing the entire point of everything I've said up until this point. I don't know how to make any of what I've said any clearer. It's not about what's happening today, it's not about a 15 minute phone call, that's what you need to understand. You need to look at the bigger picture, the information they're probably not telling you, plus the precedent and complete disregard for the structure of law we have in place. When you've crossed a line and aren't called on it, it makes it easier to cross this line again in the future. Notice how the same committee in charge of the infamous torture memos were in charge of this as well. I think that we as a country need to set forth OPEN standards for what our country is okay with. If the majority of the population is willing to give up freedoms for security, then that's something I, in the minority, would have to agree with. However, I don't think that having the President possibly breaking the law to do it - is right. And I don't think that preaching liberty to other nations while removing it at home - is right. I've said this a few times throughout this thread, and hope for once you read what I'm saying.
Tate, Iraqi citizens did not like being under the rule of Saddam Hussein. That's why 73% percent of them voted for democracy. Even the Sunni's (Saddam's own people) have done so as well. So when 73% of people vote in Iraq, and 42% of registered voters in our own country voted, I'd say that the Iraqi's just showed how much they enjoy democracy.

[Jason Tate]

lying about sex to the nation none the less... that cost us A. millions of dallars (now dont go and throw the war of iraq cost us this much) made a mockery of a president.. they dont do many snl skits with george and iraq do they,, and it sets a PRECEDENT that you can unfaithfull to your wife with an intern as the leader of our nation.. i dont care if he was best president ever.. being a leader is being a leader on "the field and off the field" obviously he showed our nation what his regaurds for women were and what his favorite sex toy was...
And I guess we have differing opinions on what Clinton did worse: got sucked and lied, or bombed some people. I'm against the bombing. I don't care about the blow-job. Bush didn't get any blow-job (be he did do cocaine) and he bombed some people. And because I try and keep my standards the same for each President: I don't care about the cocaine, I care about the bombing.

[Jason Tate]

Tate, Iraqi citizens did not like being under the rule of Saddam Hussein. That's why 73% percent of them voted for democracy. Even the Sunni's (Saddam's own people) have done so as well. So when 73% of people vote in Iraq, and 42% of registered voters in our own country voted, I'd say that the Iraqi's just showed how much they enjoy democracy.
None of the argument you quoted had anything at all to do with the Iraq elections, I was referring only to domestic issues. That's a straw-man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) argument if I've ever seen one.

[Hidenothing27]

Do you take cues from Limbaugh's show? I mean, seriously, it's like a parrot of what he asks call-ins. Anyways, I wrote a 3 paragraph response to this question in one of the earlier political threads. I don't remember which one, so I'll allow you to go search for the answer.


i wont search but thanks.... and to be honest i rarely listen to the radio.. but if you must know i will tell you.. monay -fri i work the 9-5... soo morings.. PRESTON and sTever on WMMR listen its funny... on the way home sports radio WIP 610.. can u answer my one question please i beg you.. u said ap.net is to educate us .. and like i said on what? its according to you.. it wat you want to post there is no way in hell that you can tell me that any news you post bush wise is positive or any news that is by partisan.. its news according to fucking you..your not educating us. besides to your own view

[Jason Tate]

i'm curious if you've ever seen any documentaries uncovering the many lies and myths perpetuated by the liberal media in our country? or do you just reccommend that we on the right check that kind of stuff out?
I've seen a whole bunch of them. I've also read a whole bunch of studies done by Universities on which way the media sways. I wrote a paper on it for a class in college as well, almost 45 pages and over 300 pages of data.

[nerogtr]

I heard Bush started a new special task force called, "The Redneck Force," all taken from his biggest supporting states. He is said to be sending this elite force over to Iraq today. They handed all of the 'Redneck Force' shotguns and said, "these are the ones responsible for Dale Earnhardt's death" .... the war should be over in 24 hours.

:lolbang:

[jettison]

i agree with jason tate. his approvl ratings were at a low of 34%. 34%!! No matter that half the country and the world already hates him, but even his redneck friends are slowly leaving him. You wanna know why gas prices were so high? no not because of a shortage, but b/c theres only 9 miles a gallon for war tanks which r currently being used in Iraq. Also his great "No child left behind law" has totallyyyyyy worked wonders on the NY state school system. now i have SPED kids in my guitar class, who don't even know how to hold a guitar. If u love bush so much, please elaborate how his "Great" reign has gone. u tell us the good facts and not that lame one about his approval raings jumping up 10 percent from 34%. Thats still in the 40's hunny bunches. NOT TO SOUND MEAN or anything, just putting in my 2cents. :music:

o yeah, kerry ain't too good either, i wish Gore was around. he rocked. Kerry smiles wayy too much. and if u guys knew anything about politics, you can see that only southern democrats have won in the past years. i.e. Clnton, he's from good 'ol Alabama and he won as a demi.
Kerry smiles too much? Sounds like you know a lot about politics too.
And Clinton's from Arkansas, nice try.

I agree about the one-sided posts, though.
Stop bashing Bush just because it's the cool thing to do.
Open up your eyes and let's hear both sides of shit.

[Jason Tate]

i wont search but thanks.... and to be honest i rarely listen to the radio.. but if you must know i will tell you.. monay -fri i work the 9-5... soo morings.. PRESTON and sTever on WMMR listen its funny... on the way home sports radio WIP 610.. can u answer my one question please i beg you.. u said ap.net is to educate us .. and like i said on what? its according to you.. it wat you want to post there is no way in hell that you can tell me that any news you post bush wise is positive or any news that is by partisan.. its news according to fucking you..your not educating us. besides to your own view
The answer to your question is easy, the news post is completely and 100% factual. There's nothing about this news post that is not true - it's not "news according to me" - it's news according to Reuters. I could go out and pull a John Stewart (I wish I could, because he's amazing), but I think that in this case, the facts more than speak for themselves. If Cheney didn't say what he's quoted as saying, and senators aren't looking into this probe - then I've misled you; however, it's not an issue that's even questioned.

[Hidenothing27]

haha the cocaine reference was hilarious... bush was a real party animal thats for sure.. but i cant recall bush doing cocaine in the office.. make a good story shame no one has covered it yet.. opps you beat em to it!

[Jason Tate]

Kerry smiles too much? Sounds like you know a lot about politics too.
And Clinton's from Arkansas, nice try.

I agree about the one-sided posts, though.
Stop bashing Bush just because it's the cool thing to do.
Open up your eyes and let's hear both sides of shit.
Eh, if you actually read this article, or any of the ones on this subject, it clearly states that congressmen and women from BOTH SIDES are part of this "probe." The partisan issue isn't being played here because everyone on the political spectrum is a little shocked at these implications.

[thesego211]

[QUOTE=Jason Tate]By your twisted logic because we hadn't had one on US soil up until 9/11 would mean Clinton and all the previous Presidents were doing the right thing. It was only when Bush took office that we had one. I'm sorry, but your logic, and my take on your logic are both wrong.

i guess you don't remember the first attack on the World Trade Centers? no? and the attack on the USS Cole? guess not... and the countless attacks on US Embassies across the globe prior to 9/11. up until this last post, you have at least had some semblance of fact to back you up.

[Jason Tate]

haha the cocaine reference was hilarious... bush was a real party animal thats for sure.. but i cant recall bush doing cocaine in the office.. make a good story shame no one has covered it yet.. opps you beat em to it!
I didn't say he did it in the office. Is your only defense to take what I say, change it to be not true, and then call me out on it? What the hell? Once again, straw-man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man), and just plain lying. His use of the drug in his PAST is widely documented (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-48,GGLG:en&q=bush+cocaine) and, if I remember right basically admitted.

[Jason Tate]

i guess you don't remember the first attack on the World Trade Centers? no? and the attack on the USS Cole? guess not... and the countless attacks on US Embassies across the globe prior to 9/11. up until this last post, you have at least had some semblance of fact to back you up.
Yeah, I think you missed the point in that post where I flat out said: I AM USING YOUR FUCKED UP AND WRONG LOGIC. I wasn't making that assertion out to be fact, it was 100% wrong from the get go. That was the point. Sorry if you missed it ...

I'm done with this thread for a while, people are mind-boggling today.

[Hidenothing27]

The answer to your question is easy, the news post is completely and 100% factual. There's nothing about this news post that is not true - it's not "news according to me" - it's news according to Reuters. I could go out and pull a John Stewart (I wish I could, because he's amazing), but I think that in this case, the facts more than speak for themselves. If Cheney didn't say what he's quoted as saying, and senators aren't looking into this probe - then I've misled you; however, it's not an issue that's even questioned.


ahh no in all seriousness i see what your saying but i know me and there are others.. you post the news thats relevent for you...thats how we see its your news.. u feel its important bush spied on us, but u also do not feel it is important if he did anything positve... see yah ur news may be fact but its comes accross as you saying hear read this which like most if not all things you post about bush are ones that are negative... and you kno what maybe u should u built this place and we thank you for it but its gets old everyime i chekc the site and your goin off bush again...

[Hidenothing27]

I didn't say he did it in the office. Is your only defense to take what I say, change it to be not true, and then call me out on it? What the hell? Once again, straw-man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man), and just plain lying. His use of the drug in his PAST is widely documented (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-48,GGLG:en&q=bush+cocaine) and, if I remember right basically admitted.


dude noooo i completely agree!! i know he did it!!! i dont doubt u on that at all.. by the way u and all these wikipedia references its rather humerous...

[Jason Tate]

dude noooo i completely agree!! i know he did it!!! i dont doubt u on that at all.. by the way u and all these wikipedia references its rather humerous...
It's the first thing that comes up after googling and easier to link then "define: topic" in google.

[nerogtr]

Originally Posted by jettison
Kerry smiles too much? Sounds like you know a lot about politics too.
And Clinton's from Arkansas, nice try.

I agree about the one-sided posts, though.
Stop bashing Bush just because it's the cool thing to do.
Open up your eyes and let's hear both sides of shit.

trust me when i say, most people who dislike bush and know anything about politics dont "bash him because its cool". i couldn't care less how cool or "rebelious" or "scene" or w/e bashing bush is. i doubt tate does either. that reminds me of that line in american history x where he says "i hate how its cool to be black now". forget about whats cool and trendy, the world of politics transcends cool and trendy as it affects the lives of millions of people, all around the globe (there is more to the earth that the USA, and we aren't always right). the fact of the matter is that the bush administration has caused more harm than good during his two terms. it doesn't matter what party you are in, its clear to see that the current administration has got some major issues.

[Jason Tate]

ahh no in all seriousness i see what your saying but i know me and there are others.. you post the news thats relevent for you...thats how we see its your news.. u feel its important bush spied on us, but u also do not feel it is important if he did anything positve... see yah ur news may be fact but its comes accross as you saying hear read this which like most if not all things you post about bush are ones that are negative... and you kno what maybe u should u built this place and we thank you for it but its gets old everyime i chekc the site and your goin off bush again...
Just because he repeatedly does things worth reporting on .. doesn't mean I'm going to stop calling him out on it. I suppose it'd be easier if we just accepted his failures and moved on and ignored the new ones.

[andrewlterry]

This is basically off-subject, but I heard it discussed earlier that there was no liberal media bias. A study came out by UCLA a couple days ago saying that 18 of 20 major media outlets are titled left. Hey I even found a link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179204,00.html
PS: LOL yeah I know it's fox news.

[Jason Tate]

trust me when i say, most people who dislike bush and know anything about politics dont "bash him because its cool". i couldn't care less how cool or "rebelious" or "scene" or w/e bashing bush is. i doubt tate does either. that reminds me of that line in american history x where he says "i hate how its cool to be black now". forget about whats cool and trendy, the world of politics transcends cool and trendy as it affects the lives of millions of people, all around the globe (there is more to the earth that the USA, and we aren't always right). the fact of the matter is that the bush administration has caused more harm than good during his two terms. it doesn't matter what party you are in, its clear to see that the current administration has got some major issues.
Exactly. I like Panic! at the Disco because I heard the CD and think it's catchy. No other reason. I don't agree with the Bush policies because I read them, and don't think they're right. No other reason.

[nerogtr]

tate: to make things fair, you should post all the good things bush does in addition to posting the bad things. i dont think that would change much though....he really hasn't done alot of good. OH i know, you could make posts about how patriotic he is and how he supports our troops (like any other president is any different).

[thesego211]

Yeah, I think you missed the point in that post where I flat out said: I AM USING YOUR FUCKED UP AND WRONG LOGIC. I wasn't making that assertion out to be fact, it was 100% wrong from the get go. That was the point. Sorry if you missed it ...

I'm done with this thread for a while, people are mind-boggling today.
that doesn't make any sense to me at all... and did you just use the phrase "wrong logic?" wow... Redlands education for you. i probably would have said, "incorrect logic" but that's just me.

[Jason Tate]

This is basically off-subject, but I heard it discussed earlier that there was no liberal media bias. A study came out by UCLA a couple days ago saying that 18 of 20 major media outlets are titled left. Hey I even found a link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179204,00.html
PS: LOL yeah I know it's fox news.
You should have just sourced: http://www.thatliberalmedia.com/ - it's better than anything Fox puts out. Or maybe: http://www.gargaro.com/bias.html, or hell http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/143lkblo.asp - ALL of which mean a little more then a FOX report.

However, if you want to refute the liberal media claim, check out:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20030224/alterman2
http://www.whatliberalmedia.com/
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2447
http://mediamatters.org/

[andrewlterry]

None of the argument you quoted had anything at all to do with the Iraq elections, I was referring only to domestic issues. That's a straw-man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) argument if I've ever seen one.
Tate, you're avoiding my comments. You said that you didn't like us "preaching" liberty. Meaning they didn't want democracy? I was giving you the stats of what the Iraqi's are doing now. I'm trying to make points here and all you're doing is deflecting people's comments.

[thesego211]

Exactly. I like Panic! at the Disco because I heard the CD and think it's catchy. No other reason. I don't agree with the Bush policies because I read them, and don't think they're right. No other reason.
so in addition to hating Bush, you like shitty music too? that's two strikes against you in my book. if you tell me that you like soccer or something then you are out.

[Hidenothing27]

tate check your private messages..

[Jason Tate]

that doesn't make any sense to me at all... and did you just use the phrase "wrong logic?" wow... Redlands education for you. i probably would have said, "incorrect logic" but that's just me.
I know it makes no sense to you, it takes a slight ability of critical thinking. I would have used the term "fallacy" but figured that if you couldn't figure out my first post, how the hell was I to expect you to understand a word like "fallacy."

It's easy to toss stones at my education when you don't list yours. :rollseyes:, I graduated and have used my education to create the website you're talking on. Build God, then we'll talk.

[Jason Tate]

Tate, you're avoiding my comments. You said that you didn't like us "preaching" liberty. Meaning they didn't want democracy? I was giving you the stats of what the Iraqi's are doing now. I'm trying to make points here and all you're doing is deflecting people's comments.
Liberty and democracy are not the same thing. If this is not understood, then I completely understand why I am having the discussions I am in this thread today.

[nerogtr]

i think any who has been been following this thread should go out and read "My War" by Colby Buzzell. Its a soldiers first hand account of his experiences in Iraq. Its really an amazing an enlightening read, regardless of if you are for or against the war. This is an account made by our generation (26 years old) of an event that has defined our generation. No news story or movie could ever portray the events going on in Iraq as well as Colby does in his book.

[Jason Tate]

so in addition to hating Bush, you like shitty music too? that's two strikes against you in my book. if you tell me that you like soccer or something then you are out.
Actually, Soccer's my favorite sport. At least we have distinguished that subjective opinions cause "strikes" to be counted up against one's political beliefs. How far must you stretch to have a chance at saving face with what Bush has been doing lately - PRETTY FAR IT SEEMS!

[Jason Tate]

i think any who has been been following this thread should go out and read "My War" by Colby Buzzell. Its a soldiers first hand account of his experiences in Iraq. Its really an amazing an enlightening read, regardless of if you are for or against the war. This is an account made by our generation (26 years old) of an event that has defined our generation. No news story or movie could ever portray the events going on in Iraq as well as Colby does in his book.
My best friend was over there, his stories, pictures, and home movies, hit the nail right on the head for me. I'll check out the book if I can find it at my library.

[andrewlterry]

Liberty and democracy are not the same thing. If this is not understood, then I completely understand why I am having the discussions I am in this thread today.
So what is it that we're "preaching" that is wrong?

[Jason Tate]

So what is it that we're "preaching" that is wrong?
If we're going to argue semantics, both. First because America was not founded as a democracy, we were originally to be a republic (..and to the republic for which it stands). Because the founding fathers did not believe in democracy.

This shit is getting way to much into historical theory and I really, really, really need to focus on other things on the website tonight. Hit the library.

[andrewlterry]

so in addition to hating Bush, you like shitty music too? that's two strikes against you in my book. if you tell me that you like soccer or something then you are out.
No offence, but I have many views opposite of Tate too, but bashing by means of musical interests has no point here. This is a political discussion right now, so use politics.

[nerogtr]

My best friend was over there, his stories, pictures, and home movies, hit the nail right on the head for me. I'll check out the book if I can find it at my library.
Hearing it from the source is even better. Many people don't have that source and rely on the media though. I dont know if this gives the author any "cred" but hes a skater and listens to "punk rock". Regardless, at the very least, he tells a fascinating story that may change your perception of what is going on over there. I just randomly saw it while on one of my "bored so i'll stroll through barnes and noble to see if i find anything i like" trips. I'm actually not even finished with it (started yesterday, i have about 1/8th of it left. its hard to put this down).

[nerogtr]

If we're going to argue semantics, both. First because America was not founded as a democracy, we were originally to be a republic (..and to the republic for which it stands). Because the founding fathers did not believe in democracy.

This shit is getting way to much into historical theory and I really, really, really need to focus on other things on the website tonight. Hit the library.



sounds like a few kids in this thread were "left behind" by this country's education system...

[andrewlterry]

If we're going to argue semantics, both. First because America was not founded as a democracy, we were originally to be a republic (..and to the republic for which it stands). Because the founding fathers did not believe in democracy.
Don't let the word "republic" fool you. The "Republic of China" is communist. Democracy is what is generally used in a republic. Maybe you're watching too much Star Wars. Out of the dictionary:
re·pub·lic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pblk)
n.
1. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.

2.A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.

If you need to work on the site that's cool. Have a good night man.

[Jason Tate]

Don't let the word "republic" fool you. The "Republic of China" is communist. Democracy is what is generally used in a republic. Maybe you're watching too much Star Wars. Out of the dictionary:
re·pub·lic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pblk)
n.
1. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.

2.A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.

If you need to work on the site that's cool. Have a good night man.
I'm not going to go scour the internet for what your high-school history book should include. I'm not talking about China, or Star Wars. The fact is, many of the founding fathers were against the idea of democracy as it was known to be when this country was founded.

The famous quote is, "democracy is as if three wolves and two sheep decide what's for dinner."

The majority can still vote to oppress the minority.

[andrewlterry]

I'm not going to go scour the internet for what your high-school history book should include. I'm not talking about China, or Star Wars. The fact is, many of the founding fathers were against the idea of democracy as it was known to be when this country was founded.

The famous quote is, "democracy is as if three wolves and two sheep decide what's for dinner."

The majority can still vote to oppress the minority.
Ok, meaning we shouldn't be a democracy? I don't understand that point you're trying to make. Maybe we're too far gone from each other now.

[TyroneShoolaces]

Simply not true. First off, the only reason Fox seems conservative is because all the other news networks are so liberal. I've watched Fox plenty of times, it attempts to be fairly balanced in its reporting. So don't call it a conservative network, its just not liberal.

I really do appreciate that you have done your homework, Tate. However, people with the same information can take two completely different stances. Agree to disagree.

Cause and effect is not immediate. Many of the problems that we saw during Bush, including some terrorism problems, were results of the Clinton administration. 9/11 occured less than a year after Bush came into office.

lolololololol

wait?

you're serious?

oh my god.

[andrewlterry]

lolololololol

wait?

you're serious?

oh my god.
Nevertheless, if you think Fox News as a whole has taken a "right" stance, then it's still just a small island in the big sea of blue that is the media.

[thesego211]

Liberty and democracy are not the same thing. If this is not understood, then I completely understand why I am having the discussions I am in this thread today.
i love how you talk to us like we are children or something. like you are so superior in terms of knowledge and wisdom because you created a website (which i do appreciate very much, by the way). but try not to talk down to people on the site, it makes you sound quite concieted.

[thesego211]

If we're going to argue semantics, both. First because America was not founded as a democracy, we were originally to be a republic (..and to the republic for which it stands). Because the founding fathers did not believe in democracy.

This shit is getting way to much into historical theory and I really, really, really need to focus on other things on the website tonight. Hit the library.
all hail the omnipresent and intellectually superior jason tate! dont be a dick man, you make yourself sound far more important than you really are.

[andrewlterry]

If we're going to argue semantics, both. First because America was not founded as a democracy, we were originally to be a republic (..and to the republic for which it stands). Because the founding fathers did not believe in democracy.

This shit is getting way to much into historical theory and I really, really, really need to focus on other things on the website tonight. Hit the library.
And also maybe I don't have my terms right, but what exactly is a republic? And when was this country a "republic" by what you're defining it as? Was it shown by when we elected our first president George Washington? And I'm not sure if you were saying that you were for or against "preaching" liberty? For god's sake I hope you're not against against liberty (which is freedom). Of course that's not what you're saying though.

[nerogtr]

i love how you talk to us like we are children or something. like you are so superior in terms of knowledge and wisdom because you created a website (which i do appreciate very much, by the way). but try not to talk down to people on the site, it makes you sound quite concieted.

maybe hes not trying, but none the less thats how you feel. maybe theres a reason for that. every person in this country has a say, regardless if you make the laws or vote for the people that make them. just cause tate is "only a webmaster" doesn't make him any more or less up on politics or important than you or me so dont drag stupid shit like that into it. he doesn't talk down, he states a point and defends it. he acts a hella lot more mature than half the people on this site because he realizes in order to make a point you dont go about doing it by going "ads;lfkj;aldk bush sucks cause i said so". he realizes the importance of making an educated response. if you think thats being arrogant, you may just be mistaking that for your own ignorance.

[andrewlterry]

maybe hes not trying, but none the less thats how you feel. maybe theres a reason for that. every person in this country has a say, regardless if you make the laws or vote for the people that make them. just cause tate is "only a webmaster" doesn't make him any more or less up on politics or important than you or me so dont drag stupid shit like that into it. he doesn't talk down, he states a point and defends it. he acts a hella lot more mature than half the people on this site because he realizes in order to make a point you dont go about doing it by going "ads;lfkj;aldk bush sucks cause i said so". he realizes the importance of making an educated response. if you think thats being arrogant, you may just be mistaking that for your own ignorance.
I think the point that thesego211 is getting at is this. Jason Tate created a music website, and likes to use it to spread his political views. If he can't argue or debate with his views, then there's no business in him talking about politics on a MUSIC site. Correct me if I'm wrong thesego211.

[nerogtr]

I think the point that thesego211 is getting at is this. Jason Tate created a music website, and likes to use it to spread his political views. If he can't argue or debate with his views, then there's no business in him talking about politics on a MUSIC site. Correct me if I'm wrong thesego211.

first off, from my experience on this site, this is more than a music site: its a lifestyle site. theres more to the "punk scene" than the music. ap.net reports on current events, charities, and other things that are pertenant to the lives of the members on the site (politics affect everyone).

second, hes entitled to an opinion. all he did was post the news, and in the discussion of the news he stated an opinion, just like everyone else. some became frustrated because they had trouble arguing their point which opposed tate's. this could be for a few reasons: maybe tate is just a hella good debator, maybe he simply is more up on whats going down in the world, or maybe what his point of view is the "right" one. no matter what, its up the every individual to know the facts, and formulate their own view. tate isn't some charles mansoneque figure who is preaching to a brainwashed group of punks. ap.net isn't gospel. read it, make up your own mind.

ps- i mean no disrespect to anyone in this forum regardless of their "side". im just making conversation, like the rest of you.

[TyroneShoolaces]

If it was 2009 and Hillary Clinton was the president, all the Republicans would flip the fuck out if she was illegally wiretapping American Citizens. It's not a Democrat/Republican, Liberal/Conservative issue. It's about the president taking a gigantic dump on the Constitution and everything that this country stands for.

P.S. - "Terrorism" has everybody all scared. How many people did the terrorists get back in September something a few years back? Like 2000, i think? Heart disease kills millions. I can't believe people are willing to give up thier freedom for this. But at least we are instituting democracy and freedom in other countries....pffft.

[nerogtr]

If it was 2009 and Hillary Clinton was the president, all the Republicans would flip the fuck out if she was illegally wiretapping American Citizens. It's not a Democrat/Republican, Liberal/Conservative issue. It's about the president taking a gigantic dump on the Constitution and everything that this country stands for.

P.S. - "Terrorism" has everybody all scared. How many people did the terrorists get back in September something a few years back? Like 2000, i think? Heart disease kills millions. I can't believe people are willing to give up thier freedom for this. But at least we are instituting democracy and freedom in other countries....pffft.


its true. people see this is a red state/ blue state, my president/not my president, randomshit/other random shit issue. regardless of who is in power, and what their party is, this is gross. if my own mother did this i'd be ashamed.

[nerogtr]

ps- im out, recording session. goodnight to all of you.

[andrewlterry]

I can't believe people are willing to give up thier freedom for this.
Willing to give up their "freedom" to potentially save lives?

[andrewlterry]

Well I'm out for the night. Good talking tonight everyone. See you all soon.

[Jason Tate]

Willing to give up their "freedom" to potentially save lives?
His point, I think, is would you give up the freedom to "smoke" or "own guns" if it would potentially save lives? Because both have killed more in America then terrorists.

[CorporateFish]

I'm glad they're looking into it. No matter which side it's for, the truth should be told.

[TyroneShoolaces]

Willing to give up their "freedom" to potentially save lives?

Did you read the whole thing or did you just skim?
How can I make my point more clear to you?

[wakeupgomer]

Greatest thread title EVER. Don't want to talk about politics; this administration has nuked any fight I once had.

[thisgetupkid]

so in addition to hating Bush, you like shitty music too? that's two strikes against you in my book. if you tell me that you like soccer or something then you are out.

soccer rules