Religion/Beliefs/Atheism Debate Thread

[Mercy Medical]

We all know this forum differs widely in it's religious beliefs (or lack there of). Those kinds of debates can be fun and thought provoking. I encourage you to keep those types of debates in the bounds of this thread. Too many threads and topics are getting veered off course and turning into debates about religion. If you want to have the debates, great, do it here, otherwise try and leave it out of the other threads.

[The Personist]

This was a good idea.

[goodarmcindy]

Probably for the best there is an official thread for this.

[Mercy Medical]

Except for the fact that the ones causing all the dickery are now refusing to use it out of some childish stubbornness to prove a point...

[GeeBee]

Except for the fact that the ones causing all the dickery are now refusing to use it out of some childish stubbornness to prove a point...

On the contrary, as I stated before the "who believes in god" thread pretty much hashed the whole debate out, and continues to do so. Your new thread therefore seems a tad redundant, but whatevs.

Sorry if you don't like my points of view, but your efforts to contain them to one thread are pretty overdone, since you could just click "ignore", and I go away forever.

For what it's worth, I've enjoyed your posts, even the ones I disagree with. I apologize if I've perpetuated any "dickery", and I'll try to keep my outspoken views on religion/atheism confined to threads where that's the main point of discussion.

Truce?

[Nevuk]

Does neo-atheism merely replace faith in god with faith in an equally ubiquitous version of science and technology?

[GeeBee]

Does neo-atheism merely replace faith in god with faith in an equally ubiquitous version of science and technology?

Strictly by virtue of semantics, I'd say no. Atheism doesn't make any claims, it is simply a non-belief. It's the absence of belief in deity. You'd have to come up with a term that implies belief IN those things, not absence OF belief in something else. But again, that's simply semantics.

[Analog Rebellion]

Does neo-atheism merely replace faith in god with faith in an equally ubiquitous version of science and technology?
No.

[GeeBee]

Does neo-atheism merely replace faith in god with faith in an equally ubiquitous version of science and technology?

No.

Here's some good info on atheism from August Berkshire, president of the Minnesota Atheists:
THE FOUR C's OF ATHEISM
"Atheism is a conservative position. We make no leaps of faith. We accept statements only so far as there is reason and/or evidence to back them up. Anything else is speculation. Atheism is also consistent. We apply our skepticism equally to all supernatural claims. We do not say, “All prophets, saviors, or gods are false – except ours.” We make no exceptions or special pleadings, which makes us consistent.
Another benefit of atheism is that it is contradiction-free. We don’t have to try to reconcile an all-loving, all-seeing, all-powerful god with the existence of evil. We don’t have to define love exactly the opposite of the way we normally define it in order to make it applicable to our god. We don’t have to claim a poor supernatural designer is intelligent.
An atheist also possesses clarity in his or her thinking processes. An atheist has the courage to follow the trail of reason and evidence wherever it may lead. If there should some day be a compelling reason or piece of evidence for a god, then we would acknowledge it and change our views. This is also known as intellectual honesty."


Let the fun begin...

[Analog Rebellion]

Here's some good info on atheism from August Berkshire, president of the Minnesota Atheists:
THE FOUR C's OF ATHEISM
"Atheism is a conservative position. We make no leaps of faith. We accept statements only so far as there is reason and/or evidence to back them up. Anything else is speculation. Atheism is also consistent. We apply our skepticism equally to all supernatural claims. We do not say, “All prophets, saviors, or gods are false – except ours.” We make no exceptions or special pleadings, which makes us consistent.
Another benefit of atheism is that it is contradiction-free. We don’t have to try to reconcile an all-loving, all-seeing, all-powerful god with the existence of evil. We don’t have to define love exactly the opposite of the way we normally define it in order to make it applicable to our god. We don’t have to claim a poor supernatural designer is intelligent.
An atheist also possesses clarity in his or her thinking processes. An atheist has the courage to follow the trail of reason and evidence wherever it may lead. If there should some day be a compelling reason or piece of evidence for a god, then we would acknowledge it and change our views. This is also known as intellectual honesty."


Let the fun begin...
I like that.

[thespearkid]

I think we should have a group prayer before we start the thread.

[vodyanoj]

Does neo-atheism merely replace faith in god with faith in an equally ubiquitous version of science and technology?

No; there are atheists who are also anti-technological, and even anti-scientific. They only share their disbelief in the one god; besides that, anything goes.

[GeeBee]

I think we should have a group prayer before we start the thread.

Which god(s) do you propose we pray to? I'm in.

[vodyanoj]

I think we should have a group prayer before we start the thread.

Excellent! Except for the only deities I pray to are pagan phallic deitieis before I get laid, to make sure my parts function properly, and I do it facetiously.

[GeeBee]

Excellent! Except for the only deities I pray to are pagan phallic deitieis before I get laid, to make sure my parts function properly, and I do it facetiously.

You're just begging them to strike you with limpness.

[vodyanoj]

You're just begging them to strike you with limpness.

Ha ha! That was facetious! Bad joke! ::looking around nervously:: :D

[Analog Rebellion]

Excellent! Except for the only deities I pray to are pagan phallic deitieis before I get laid, to make sure my parts function properly, and I do it facetiously.
:lol:

[The Personist]

I think we should have a group prayer before we start the thread.

To Satan.

[Analog Rebellion]

To Satan.
To Ted Haggard.

[GeeBee]

To Ted Haggard.

Speaking of phallic...
...with a male prostitute...on meth...

[The Personist]

To Ted Haggard.

To Jason Tate.

[Analog Rebellion]

Speaking of phallic...
...with a male prostitute...on meth...
Hey now, don't hate on meth and male whores. There are plenty of perfectly non-hypocritical people that enjoy both of those things.

[vodyanoj]

:lol:

Yes; my admission of lack of seriousness may have been the cause of much impotence; however, I am not relieved, since I remembered that MY gods are not omnipresent or omnipotent, and, in fact, if they don't pay mind to me I can always challenge them to a fair fight. And Freyr gave his sword away, too, so he would be unarmed. :-p

[x togepi x]

Does neo-atheism merely replace faith in god with faith in an equally ubiquitous version of science and technology?

yes.

[GeeBee]

yes.
Please elaborate. These posts do little to further the discussion.

[FemaleCuckold]

Does neo-atheism merely replace faith in god with faith in an equally ubiquitous version of science and technology?

I'd say neo-atheism replaces faith in god with faith in oneself. Or at least that's the ideal to strive toward. Although, I'd say "believing" would be a better word for the latter "faith."

[derekmoyer4]

I'd say neo-atheism replaces faith in god with faith in oneself. Or at least that's the ideal to strive toward. Although, I'd say "believing" would be a better word for the latter "faith."
i would most certainly agree with that assessment for the most part. but i am sure it can be interpreted in many various ways.

[Nevuk]

yes.

No; there are atheists who are also anti-technological, and even anti-scientific. They only share their disbelief in the one god; besides that, anything goes.

I was referring to the very specific set of neo-atheists like Dawkins, Hitchens, etc. However, I probably fall
under the categories you're referring to, but I have really weak and fluid principles that alter to justify whatever I feel like doing at the moment like making posts on a message board (and yes, I've done some other horrible things) despite thinking technology and science are probably evil.

Here's some good info on atheism from August Berkshire, president of the Minnesota Atheists:
THE FOUR C's OF ATHEISM
"Atheism is a conservative position. We make no leaps of faith. We accept statements only so far as there is reason and/or evidence to back them up. Anything else is speculation. Atheism is also consistent. We apply our skepticism equally to all supernatural claims. We do not say, “All prophets, saviors, or gods are false – except ours.”

Ball lightning. Spontaneous human combustion. The big bang. These are things people would call magic, attribute to god, but what does an atheist do?

We make no exceptions or special pleadings, which makes us consistent.
Another benefit of atheism is that it is contradiction-free. We don’t have to try to reconcile an all-loving, all-seeing, all-powerful god with the existence of evil. We don’t have to define love exactly the opposite of the way we normally define it in order to make it applicable to our god. We don’t have to claim a poor supernatural designer is intelligent.
You're defining yourselves based upon differences from christianity rather than in and of yourself. I'm a pagan. Earlier in the post I was an atheist but like I said, fluidity. I need an excuse to do hallucinogenic drugs, damnit! (and also insert random phallic imagery here for me to dance around) So your definition doesn't really make sense to me - I don't care about Christians, at all. Yes, I've slept with several because they were easy lays, but I'm not sure if this was because they were Christian or if it was just due to their horrible sense of self-worth.

And here is the question that atheists have to struggle with, how can you reconcile the distinction between good and evil without an absolute foundation? Some people have chosen Essentialism, others have gone the Dawkins route of "well it's hard to say hitler was evil " (I'm paraphrasing). That's not a contradiction per se, but it is a problem. I personally have sepia blinders on when it comes to morality- it's not even relative to me because it's all the same. Christian morality has very little to do with Christianity, as many atheists practice it. I'm considered surprisingly moral given my total lack of convictions, but it's only because I'm good at lying and deceiving people. Then let's examine essentialism a bit closer - if humans have an inherent nature and an inherent morality, where did this originate from? Why can we break it? Why do some people not seem to have any? It doesn't solve the problem, it just dislocates it a bit further
edit :
here is a moral dilemma for you : if you tell a lie, but your lie is actually the truth, but you do not know it, what is it that you've told? Is it the intent, the actions, or the repurcussions. You can say that this doesn't matter to an atheist - but it does, because the way our legal code is set up it is actually the actions that are punished usually, that's the philosophy we go by, which is not exactly the christian moral code.


An atheist also possesses clarity in his or her thinking processes. An atheist has the courage to follow the trail of reason and evidence wherever it may lead. If there should some day be a compelling reason or piece of evidence for a god, then we would acknowledge it and change our views. This is also known as intellectual honesty."
Yes. This is exactly what I was referring to - unending faith in reason and logic, which are fallible principles and fall under the category of "Science" in my mind, as science that is somewhat a term of the Enlightenment.

[Nevuk]

I'd say neo-atheism replaces faith in god with faith in oneself. Or at least that's the ideal to strive toward. Although, I'd say "believing" would be a better word for the latter "faith."
Faith in oneself sounds like a line a lifetime inspirational movie would have as the turning point of the main character finally divorcing her wife-beating husband, after having had every other character tell her "get out now" for the past 2 hours, plus commercial breaks. Wait, what?

The self doesn't exist, though. Believing in yourself has always reminded me of a justification for egocentrism.

[FemaleCuckold]

Faith in oneself sounds like a line a lifetime inspirational movie would have as the turning point of the main character finally divorcing her wife-beating husband, after having had every other character tell her "get out now" for the past 2 hours, plus commercial breaks. Wait, what?

The self doesn't exist, though. Believing in yourself has always reminded me of a justification for egocentrism.

I agree the "self" doesn't exist. If you want to get literal, I meant believe in your " bundle or collection of different perceptions, which succeed each other with an inconceivable rapidity, and are in a perpetual flux and movement [- Hume]."

Believing in yourself shouldn't be taken to mean believe only in yourself. You can still believe in other people. I don't know where the egocentrism comes in. I've always taken it as a euphemism to mean, basically, feel good about yourself, trust yourself, etc. etc. etc. :shrug:

[The Personist]

Ayn Rand?

[The Personist]

By which I mean, supplanting yourself for God in a worship schema is basically her idea of Objectivism: man worship. And it's not a good idea. I'm an individualist, of course, but I find her ideas untenable.

[Duexy]

the official dick butter thread

[Animalhill]

Has anyone read, "The Lucifer Principle" by Howard Bloom?
Despite its title, it has nothing to do with that fictional resident in the fictional den of the world.
In a nutshell, it explains the Christian idea of "evil" through geneology, history, many scietific studies, and ebb and flow of superorganisms.
I highly recommend it- other than blowing your mind, it would defintely enrich a lot of the arguments (on both sides) of this thread.

[loveisdead]

Religion itself isn't a bad thing. It's simply a philosophy for how we came to be, how we should act, what's going to happen to us when we die, etc. etc. I think that there is a problem with people becoming almost colt-like in the form of the church and what not and when those organizations have a huge impact on everyone's way of life.

[J.C.]

Religion itself isn't a bad thing. It's simply a philosophy for how we came to be, how we should act, what's going to happen to us when we die, etc. etc. I think that there is a problem with people becoming almost colt-like in the form of the church and what not and when those organizations have a huge impact on everyone's way of life.

http://images.smarter.com/blogs/peyton2.jpg

[crit]

http://images.smarter.com/blogs/peyton2.jpg
:lol:

[TEAMRAMROD]

Or this:
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll286/shspartans2010/colt.jpg

[loveisdead]

All well played haha. I won't even edit it.

[thespearkid]

Religion itself isn't a bad thing. It's simply a philosophy for how we came to be, how we should act, what's going to happen to us when we die, etc. etc. I think that there is a problem with people becoming almost colt-like in the form of the church and what not and when those organizations have a huge impact on everyone's way of life.
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/06/hardees_badthings/image/colt_45.jpg

This is what religion does to me.

[Analog Rebellion]

I'm going to be a little less original here

http://www.antiquestopic.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/colt-1894-bisley.jpg

[loveisdead]

The colt 45 wins so far.

[TEAMRAMROD]

EohMrbV11q8

[saysmydoctor]

The responses in here have been amazing.

I wonder what people's views on Buddhism are.

[Nevuk]

Has anyone read, "The Lucifer Principle" by Howard Bloom?
Despite its title, it has nothing to do with that fictional resident in the fictional den of the world.
In a nutshell, it explains the Christian idea of "evil" through geneology, history, many scietific studies, and ebb and flow of superorganisms.
I highly recommend it- other than blowing your mind, it would defintely enrich a lot of the arguments (on both sides) of this thread.
I'll look into this, it is something I would probably enjoy.

[loveisdead]

The responses in here have been amazing.

I wonder what people's views on Buddhism are.
I made a thread on that awhile back that had some decent back and forths. You were in there I think.

[GeeBee]

I say end this thread. It's a duplicate of what's already going on in the "who believes in god thread", which is almost ready to overtake the general politics thread in activity.

[Animalhill]

I'll look into this, it is something I would probably enjoy.
Its amazing man- changed the way that the world hit my face.

[Bruised26]

Here is my view. Religion works for some people, doesnt work for others. I think it is just a personal preference, and if its not for you, thats totally fine. I'm not gonna shove my religion down your throat and force you to read the Bible if you don't want to.

I am a 'Christian', by the way.

[vodyanoj]

Here is my view. Religion works for some people, doesnt work for others. I think it is just a personal preference, and if its not for you, thats totally fine. I'm not gonna shove my religion down your throat and force you to read the Bible if you don't want to.

I am a 'Christian', by the way.

But that is assumed, period. Those who *do* shove their religion down others' throats are taken out and shot. However, that is not what the argument is all about. Is your religion the correct one?

[GeeBee]

Useless and redundant thread is useless and redundant.

[The Personist]

YOUR FACE IS REDUNDANT


x

[GeeBee]

Aw Snap.

[The Personist]

Yeah? YEAH!? what now. Bring it. I will smite you.

[Bruised26]

But that is assumed, period. Those who *do* shove their religion down others' throats are taken out and shot. However, that is not what the argument is all about. Is your religion the correct one?

I believe it is, but people of other religions believe theirs is. So me saying I believe mine is the correct one won't do anything.
When you say "But that is assumed, period", are you saying that I am going to make people follow my religion???

I think most people on this website who arent christians just think we are all insane homeschooled missionaries who hate everyone who isnt christian and dont accept them.

[The Personist]

I believe it is, but people of other religions believe theirs is. So me saying I believe mine is the correct one won't do anything.
When you say "But that is assumed, period", are you saying that I am going to make people follow my religion???

I think most people on this website who arent christians just think we are all insane homeschooled missionaries who hate everyone who isnt christian and dont accept them.

This.

[SLOWPOKE LOPEZ]

But that is assumed, period. Those who *do* shove their religion down others' throats are taken out and shot. However, that is not what the argument is all about. Is your religion the correct one?
whats the sense in choosing a religion if you don't think its correct?

[vodyanoj]

whats the sense in choosing a religion if you don't think its correct?

The majority of people do not "choose"; they simply follow a religion that they grew up following, with minor variations and statistically insignificant changes.

[vodyanoj]

I believe it is, but people of other religions believe theirs is. So me saying I believe mine is the correct one won't do anything.
When you say "But that is assumed, period", are you saying that I am going to make people follow my religion???

I think most people on this website who arent christians just think we are all insane homeschooled missionaries who hate everyone who isnt christian and dont accept them.

I know quite a few very intelligent Christians; however their theology is far from orthodox.

I do not know, nor am aware of, a single intelligent fundamentalist, regardless of specific persuasion of belief.

[The Personist]

Traditional orthodox theology is the biggest straw man this argument has seen.

[doppelganger]

are there wiccans on ap? i have yet to talk with one. i think it would be interesting.

[vodyanoj]

Traditional orthodox theology is the biggest straw man this argument has seen.

Why? Because you do not agree with it? There are a lot of people that do...

[The Personist]

Why? Because you do not agree with it? There are a lot of people that do...

Well, it is in the sense that you're using it as your whipping boy when debating people who do not agree with it.

[One Bad Landing]

It's been my experience that people with opposing opinions just won't get along... especially in intimate relationships -- however, rarely, I've seen exceptions.

[One Bad Landing]

and 15. jeez. what a pain.

[Machu505]

Most of the Christians I know don't mind if you're an atheist, unless you're dealing with the really stupid Christians who don't know what they're talking about.

[oohlala43]

Most of the Christians I know don't mind if you're an atheist, unless you're dealing with the really stupid Christians who don't know what they're talking about.

Really stupid Christians that shove their religions down your throat = not cool. It pisses me off to no end.

But I'm Catholic? Does AP.net have an opinion on Catholics?

[xshady121]

Epic bumps guys.

You're in the beliefs thread. If you're looking to argue about the existence of any gods, you're in the wrong thread.

[GeeBee]

Epic bumps guys.

You're in the beliefs thread. If you're looking to argue about the existence of any gods, you're in the wrong thread.

And that argument has already been won several times.

[xshady121]

And that argument has already been won several times.

Debatable.

[GeeBee]

Debatable.

No it's not. Ben Stein won the argument with his brilliant documentary.



....(sarcasm)....

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Really stupid Christians that shove their religions down your throat = not cool. It pisses me off to no end.

But I'm Catholic? Does AP.net have an opinion on Catholics?

If you're Catholic and your gonna get married, you better not get divorced... or else all HELL is gonna break loose.

[BryterJonah]

Have you guys been to a church lately? Those christian chicks are fuckin fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine .





edit: this goes to the atheists in general, as agnostics are to pussy to care.
:snoopy:

[caveBEAR]

Have you guys been to a church lately? Those christian chicks are fuckin fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine .





edit: this goes to the atheists in general, as agnostics are to pussy to care.
:snoopy:

What does this even mean?

[<*)))><]

He makes less sense then me, and that is just sad.

[zion the lion]

Most of the Christians I know don't mind if you're an atheist, unless you're dealing with the really stupid Christians who don't know what they're talking about.

Really stupid Christians that shove their religions down your throat = not cool. It pisses me off to no end.

But I'm Catholic? Does AP.net have an opinion on Catholics?

that goes for every single religion no matter what, including atheism (dont get technical on me).

And Catholics are looked upon the same as Christians are looked upon. Why should it even matter to you how a bunch of anonymous boys look at your religion? Does it really change the way you feel about your faith? You shouldnt be that weak minded to let someone talk you out of a major aspect of your life just they're a bunch of raving fanatics who scream "burden of proof" and "circular logic" every five seconds.

[GeeBee]

Well, now that zion's weighed in, I think that about wraps the issue up.

[caveBEAR]

And Catholics are looked upon the same as Christians are looked upon.

That would be a 'no'.

[zion the lion]

That would be a 'no'.

how is it a no? How is it in any logical way a no?

[Wake Up]

Well, now that zion's weighed in, I think that about wraps the issue up.

hahhahaahah

[Machu505]

that goes for every single religion no matter what, including atheism (dont get technical on me).

And Catholics are looked upon the same as Christians are looked upon. Why should it even matter to you how a bunch of anonymous boys look at your religion? Does it really change the way you feel about your faith? You shouldnt be that weak minded to let someone talk you out of a major aspect of your life just they're a bunch of raving fanatics who scream "burden of proof" and "circular logic" every five seconds.
Why again was I quoted here?

[zion the lion]

Why again was I quoted here?

You were the top part, I was just ditzy and didnt plop my part in the your designated area.

[caveBEAR]

how is it a no? How is it in any logical way a no?

Because Catholics are more looked down upon than Christians? It may not be as wide-spread today as it was, but look up what people thought about JFK's Catholicism.

[zion the lion]

Because Catholics are more looked down upon than Christians? It may not be as wide-spread today as it was, but look up what people thought about JFK's Catholicism.

Forgot about that. I was thinking about how they're more in the same bracket.

[Machu505]

Who the fuck has Catholic prejudices nowadays? After they say "fuck you" to the Pope do they go to get milkshakes at the drive-in theater?

[caveBEAR]

Who the fuck has prejudices nowadays?

(It's a shame this isn't) Fixed.

[perceptrons]

You shouldnt be that weak minded to let someone talk you out of a major aspect of your life just they're a bunch of raving fanatics who scream "burden of proof" and "circular logic" every five seconds.
Yeah! Who the fuck are those people to ask you to use your brain when discussing a major aspect of your life?

[BryterJonah]

ABORT R R R
ABOT A BOT


indestructible proof the christ was android
abortion is beautiful
every abortion tastes, oh so it tastes
:snoopy:

[GeeBee]

Yeah! Who the fuck are those people to ask you to use your brain when discussing a major aspect of your life?

lol. Win.

[caveBEAR]

Yeah! Who the fuck are those people to ask you to use your brain when discussing a major aspect of your life?

But it's a major part of their lives! There's no room for logic there.

[BryterJonah]

Death is major. Death is important. None of you comprehend. Brasa




:snoopy:

[caveBEAR]

Looks like we have ourselves a new zion... :rolleyes:

[Machu505]

Hurrah I finally have someone to put on ignore.

[BryterJonah]

Hurrah I finally have someone to put on ignore.



apart from your own flesh & blood. why don't you send letters anymore? wh y are e you suc ha bastar dCHILD???


:snoopy:

[Machu505]

Ah to be quoted and unable to see the post.

[caveBEAR]

Ah to be quoted and unable to see the post.

It was utter nonsense, and if he isn't on 'shrooms then he may be mentally challenged.

[oohlala43]

And Catholics are looked upon the same as Christians are looked upon. Why should it even matter to you how a bunch of anonymous boys look at your religion? Does it really change the way you feel about your faith? You shouldnt be that weak minded to let someone talk you out of a major aspect of your life just they're a bunch of raving fanatics who scream "burden of proof" and "circular logic" every five seconds.

So, because I asked an honest question it means I'm questioning my faith? Where did you even get that idea? I said nothing other than "how does AP.net feel about Catholics?" Nowhere in my post said "Please, convince me not to believe in my religion."

It matters because its my religion, and I want to know how people feel about it. I would like to know what I'm up against. Excuse me for being curious.

[caveBEAR]

So, because I asked an honest question it means I'm questioning my faith? Where did you even get that idea? I said nothing other than "how does AP.net feel about Catholics?" Nowhere in my post said "Please, convince me not to believe in my religion."

It matters because its my religion, and I want to know how people feel about it. I would like to know what I'm up against. Excuse me for being curious.

Yeah, you're gonna want to let this one go. Zion has 'breakdowns of communication' with everyone, and you're not going to win anything here but a headache.

Best you let it go.

[BryterJonah]

I
want to pour alcohol down your throat

I
want to pour alcohol down your throat

I want
to pour alcohol down your throat













:snoopy:

[caveBEAR]

I
want to pour alcohol down your throat

I
want to pour alcohol down your throat

I want
to pour alcohol down your throat













:snoopy:

Every once in a while it's nice to come across a person like this to remind me of what's important in life; anything but spamming a message board.

I think that's right below 'high school girl crying for attention' on the 'Look At Me!' Totem Pole.



Aaaah, but I'm sure you're a lovely person in real life.

[oohlala43]

Yeah, you're gonna want to let this one go. Zion has 'breakdowns of communication' with everyone, and you're not going to win anything here but a headache.

Best you let it go.

You know, I think I'm going to take my chances with this one. But thanks for the warning! :)

[caveBEAR]

You know, I think I'm going to take my chances with this one. But thanks for the warning! :)

Many have tried, all have failed. Good luck.

[xshady121]

You know, I think I'm going to take my chances with this one. But thanks for the warning! :)

You don't want to argue with her. She is by far the most dense poster here. And always wrong.

Don't fall victim to her; you're better than that.

[paper halo]

Enjoyable interview with Stephen Fry. (http://bigthink.com/ideas/17864)

[drrice]

Failure to prove a hypothesis does not falsify it.

[GeeBee]

Failure to prove a hypothesis does not falsify it.

And?....

[paper halo]

Failure to prove a hypothesis does not falsify it.

No shit?

[caveBEAR]

Blue + Yellow = Green

[GeeBee]

Turns out, societies that have god "on their side" are worse off:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

[davehennessy]

Just because America is socially dysfunctional (even more so than other countries) doesn't mean it's because 75% of the country affiliates itself with the Christian faith

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies." = complete bullshit. I'm not denying that America is a dysfunctional country, because it is (as is every country), but to say the reason America is dysfunctional is because of its Christian population is a bold (and bullshit) statement to make

[perceptrons]

Just because America is socially dysfunctional (even more so than other countries) doesn't mean it's because 75% of the country affiliates itself with the Christian faith

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies." = complete bullshit. I'm not denying that America is a dysfunctional country, because it is (as is every country), but to say the reason America is dysfunctional is because of its Christian population is a bold (and bullshit) statement to make
Why is it bullshit?

[macabre]

Just because America is socially dysfunctional (even more so than other countries) doesn't mean it's because 75% of the country affiliates itself with the Christian faith

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies." = complete bullshit. I'm not denying that America is a dysfunctional country, because it is (as is every country), but to say the reason America is dysfunctional is because of its Christian population is a bold (and bullshit) statement to make

Science 101. Correlation does not imply causation.

[CarryOn09]

im going to a universalist unitarian church and im liking it. everything is represented without having it forced down your throat.

[davehennessy]

Science 101. Correlation does not imply causation.

Well it certainly seemed like the article was pretty "blaming" of the Christian society of America for the country's being dysfunctional

[davehennessy]

Why is it bullshit?

The article, completely bottom-lined, was basically saying that all of these negative statistics were on the rise because of America's decision to be a Christian society, yet most of the statistics are ones that wouldn't rise in a Christian society. I'm not denying that the article's information on rising statistics is wrong, I'm saying that to blame it on America 'as a Christian nation' is way off. If the percentage of Americans that associate with the Christian faith dropped 50%, we would still be having the same social problems we and every other country has today

[macabre]

Well it certainly seemed like the article was pretty "blaming" of the Christian society of America for the country's being dysfunctional

Blame it on bad journalism. The direction of causality can go either way in a correlational study.

[perceptrons]

The article, completely bottom-lined, was basically saying that all of these negative statistics were on the rise because of America's decision to be a Christian society, yet most of the statistics are ones that wouldn't rise in a Christian society. I'm not denying that the article's information on rising statistics is wrong, I'm saying that to blame it on America 'as a Christian nation' is way off. If the percentage of Americans that associate with the Christian faith dropped 50%, we would still be having the same social problems we and every other country has today
Would you say we are a Christian society? If yes, then why are such statistics on the rise when, according to you, they shouldn't? How do you know that if the percentage dropped to 50% things would stay the same?

What I'm trying to get at is that you are refuting the claims with any substance, you just keep saying they're wrong.

[davehennessy]

Would you say we are a Christian society? If yes, then why are such statistics on the rise when, according to you, they shouldn't? How do you know that if the percentage dropped to 50% things would stay the same?

What I'm trying to get at is that you are refuting the claims with any substance, you just keep saying they're wrong.

I would definitely call America a Christian society if 75% of its population identifies with the Christian faith. And statistics are on the rise simply because statistics fluctuate all the time. The point is that if 75% of America is Christian (which is what the statistic says), then you can't blame the rising of negative statistics on the general population. Negative statistics on issues like homicide and teen pregnancy would not rise exponentially in a Christian nation, unless the 75% happens to be a much smaller number

[caveBEAR]

I would definitely call America a Christian society if 75% of its population identifies with the Christian faith. And statistics are on the rise simply because statistics fluctuate all the time.

'Statistics fluctuate all the time'? Congrats, now you can't ever use a statistic on this board to prove any of your points, as statistics fluctuate over time.

The point is that if 75% of America is Christian (which is what the statistic says), then you can't blame the rising of negative statistics on the general population. Negative statistics on issues like homicide and teen pregnancy would not rise exponentially in a Christian nation, unless the 75% happens to be a much smaller number

Bullshit. You act like Christians don't kill/screw, and that's 100% (look at me using a non-fluctuating statistic) bullshit. You're trying to act like the 25% is the group causing the pregnancies and violence, but that's ridiculous; crime and pregnancy do not know a creed or religion.

If anything, I would ponder that Christians are more likely to make a stupid decision like commit a crime, fuck without condoms, etc., because they are generally undereducated about real world issues and more likely to assume that 'God has everything in his hands'.

[GeeBee]

Irrational thinking begets irrational actions. And on the whole, it seems that Europeans are far more rational in their thinking (call that atheism if you want to).

[caveBEAR]

Irrational thinking begets irrational actions. And on the whole, it seems that Europeans are far more rational in their thinking (call that atheism if you want to).

Exactly. When 1 + 1 = 2 on Monday, and 1 + 1 = 2 on Tuesday, and 1 + 1 = 2 on Wednesday, it's pretty easy to guess what's it's going to be on Thursday.

However, when 1 + 1 = 2 on Monday, and 1 + 1 = 3 on Sunday, and 1 + 1 = blue on Memorial Day, well, why bother having 1 + 1 = 2 anytime?




KnowhatImean?

[xshady121]

Irrational thinking begets irrational actions. And on the whole, it seems that Europeans are far more rational in their thinking (call that atheism if you want to).

Exactly. When 1 + 1 = 2 on Monday, and 1 + 1 = 2 on Tuesday, and 1 + 1 = 2 on Wednesday, it's pretty easy to guess what's it's going to be on Thursday.

However, when 1 + 1 = 2 on Monday, and 1 + 1 = 3 on Sunday, and 1 + 1 = blue on Memorial Day, well, why bother having 1 + 1 = 2 anytime?




KnowhatImean?

As a subscriber to a higher being (call that christianity if you want), this user does not speak for all religious people.

[caveBEAR]

As a subscriber to a higher being (call that christianity if you want), this user does not speak for all religious people.

I believe there is a very rational way to approach subscribing to a higher being, as I don't try to tack down a higher power, but I don't actively 'disbelieve'. I just think the problem is when blind faith overtakes rationality.

[GeeBee]

As a subscriber to a higher being (call that christianity if you want), this user does not speak for all religious people.

Personal belief is personal belief. You do a good job of keeping yours personal and out of civic discourse.

[davehennessy]

Bullshit. You act like Christians don't kill/screw, and that's 100% (look at me using a non-fluctuating statistic) bullshit. You're trying to act like the 25% is the group causing the pregnancies and violence, but that's ridiculous; crime and pregnancy do not know a creed or religion.

If anything, I would ponder that Christians are more likely to make a stupid decision like commit a crime, fuck without condoms, etc., because they are generally undereducated about real world issues and more likely to assume that 'God has everything in his hands'.

I'm not saying Christians don't make mistakes, everyone does. What I'm saying is that for that article to say the reason America is so dysfunctional socially is because it's Christian is completely way off. The writer (and you, apparently) obviously don't understand what morals are. If 75% percent of a country claims to be Christian, then 75% of the country lives (or tries to live) lifestyles that wouldn't make decisions leading to killing, sexual promiscuity, etc. Obviously there are people in that 75% that either aren't really Christian or just don't lead very healthy lifestyles, but to call America the worst example of a socially correct country because 75% of its population identifies with Christianity is ridiculous

[GeeBee]

I'm not saying Christians don't make mistakes, everyone does. What I'm saying is that for that article to say the reason America is so dysfunctional socially is because it's Christian is completely way off. The writer (and you, apparently) obviously don't understand what morals are. If 75% percent of a country claims to be Christian, then 75% of the country lives (or tries to live) lifestyles that wouldn't make decisions leading to killing, sexual promiscuity, etc. Obviously there are people in that 75% that either aren't really Christian or just don't lead very healthy lifestyles, but to call America the worst example of a socially correct country because 75% of its population identifies with Christianity is ridiculous

Good thing that's not what the article said, huh? Try reading it again, gumshoe.

[davehennessy]

Good thing that's not what the article said, huh? Try reading it again, gumshoe.

Again, it's bad journalism. The article was all over the place.. maybe the UK needs to stop putting out publications for awhile

[GeeBee]

Again, it's bad journalism. The article was all over the place.. maybe the UK needs to stop putting out publications for awhile

Yep. Your poor reading comprehension and complete dismissal of a fully researched and documented article = The Brits are poor journalists.

Also, can you spell hypocrite? You're bitching about them painting christians with a broad brush, then you turn around and blame the entire UK for an article you can't understand?

Get real, douchewad.

[paper halo]

Again, it's bad journalism. The article was all over the place.. maybe the UK needs to stop putting out publications for awhile

Yeah, as The Times is our one and only news publication, representitive of the entire country.

Tool.

[GeeBee]

Yeah, as The Times is our one and only news publication, representitive of the entire country.

Tool.

You and your limey buddies should just bugger off the newspaper business for a spell, yeah? Obviously you're having a bit of a struggle.

[davehennessy]

Bottom line is that 75% of America aligns itself with Christianity. If the article is blaming America's religious beliefs for its problems, that's fine. But I know this country didn't get to where it is today because we believed in nothing. Every country (and everyone individually) has their problems, but what makes America unique from most other countries is our ability to come together as a country 'under one God.' It's not just some bullshit phrase that's in our pledge of allegiance for no reason.. our country-wide faith (for the most part) is what holds us together as a joined people

[GeeBee]

Bottom line is that 75% of America aligns itself with Christianity. If the article is blaming America's religious beliefs for its problems, that's fine. But I know this country didn't get to where it is today because we believed in nothing. Every country (and everyone individually) has their problems, but what makes America unique from most other countries is our ability to come together as a country 'under one God.' It's not just some bullshit phrase that's in our pledge of allegiance for no reason.. our country-wide faith (for the most part) is what holds us together as a joined people
:lol:

That's pretty much all I can say at this. Such a simplistic, myopic view of the world is not only tragic, but laughably uneducated and ignorant.

[davehennessy]

:lol:

That's pretty much all I can say at this. Such a simplistic, myopic view of the world is not only tragic, but laughably uneducated and ignorant.

I really can't say any more. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. We both probably think the other is uneducated and ignorant, but I'm not about to go back and forth giving you reasons why

[paper halo]

You and your limey buddies should just bugger off the newspaper business for a spell, yeah? Obviously you're having a bit of a struggle.

I'll be sure to tell them next time I take my carriage past head office, on my way to have tea with the Queen.

[paper halo]

I really can't say any more. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. We both probably think the other is uneducated and ignorant, but I'm not about to go back and forth giving you reasons why

Yeah, but only one of you is right. (Hint: It's not you)

[davehennessy]

Yeah, but only one of you is right. (Hint: It's not you)

Glad to know I can add you to the uneducated list

[paper halo]

Glad to know I can add you to the uneducated list

Weren't you the guy telling people they were going to hell in another thread?

Seriously, based on your posts, there is no way you can judge anyone else to be uneducated.

[davehennessy]

Weren't you the guy telling people they were going to hell in another thread?

Seriously, based on your posts, there is no way you can judge anyone else to be uneducated.

You're right, I shouldn't be one to judge

[jenkkem]

thats what she said

[GeeBee]

I really can't say any more. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. We both probably think the other is uneducated and ignorant, but I'm not about to go back and forth giving you reasons why

Likely because you don't have any. Keep on in that delusional world of yours, buddy. I won't stop you.

[caveBEAR]

I'm not saying Christians don't make mistakes, everyone does. What I'm saying is that for that article to say the reason America is so dysfunctional socially is because it's Christian is completely way off. The writer (and you, apparently) obviously don't understand what morals are. If 75% percent of a country claims to be Christian, then 75% of the country lives (or tries to live) lifestyles that wouldn't make decisions leading to killing, sexual promiscuity, etc. Obviously there are people in that 75% that either aren't really Christian or just don't lead very healthy lifestyles, but to call America the worst example of a socially correct country because 75% of its population identifies with Christianity is ridiculous

::clears throat:: Fuck you. Just because someone is Christian doesn't mean they can't kill & fuck, too. Don't act like Christianity makes someone a Saint, and don't try to back-peddle and say you didn't say that, because anyone with basic reading comprehension can read the bolded parts and see that you did.

Bottom line is that 75% of America aligns itself with Christianity. If the article is blaming America's religious beliefs for its problems, that's fine. But I know this country didn't get to where it is today because we believed in nothing. Every country (and everyone individually) has their problems, but what makes America unique from most other countries is our ability to come together as a country 'under one God.' It's not just some bullshit phrase that's in our pledge of allegiance for no reason.. our country-wide faith (for the most part) is what holds us together as a joined people

'under God' (not 'under one God', there's a difference) was added to the pledge after the fact.

[GeeBee]

::clears throat:: Fuck you. Just because someone is Christian doesn't mean they can't kill & fuck, too. Don't act like Christianity makes someone a Saint, and don't try to back-peddle and say you didn't say that, because anyone with basic reading comprehension can read the bolded parts and see that you did.



'under God' (not 'under one God', there's a difference) was added to the pledge after the fact.

Not to mention, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon...all purport to operate "under god", as well. Dave's god is apparently better than their god.

[caveBEAR]

:rolleyes:

[davehennessy]

Not to mention, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon...all purport to operate "under god", as well. Dave's god is apparently better than their god.

Do you honestly think the "god" of a country like Iran is the same as America's God? You've got to be kidding me if you do

[davehennessy]

Don't act like Christianity makes someone a Saint



I never said it did

[GeeBee]

Do you honestly think the "god" of a country like Iran is the same as America's God? You've got to be kidding me if you do

Please, elaborate. I seriously can't wait for this one...

[davehennessy]

Likely because you don't have any

More like you're completely ignorant and don't have a clue, which is unfortunate

[davehennessy]

Please, elaborate. I seriously can't wait for this one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran

[caveBEAR]

I never said it did

Bullshit;

If 75% percent of a country claims to be Christian, then 75% of the country lives (or tries to live) lifestyles that wouldn't make decisions leading to killing, sexual promiscuity, etc. Obviously there are people in that 75% that either aren't really Christian or just don't lead very healthy lifestyles

You are insinuating right there that the 75% (Christians) are 'saints', and that the 75% doesn't do anything leading to violence or sexual 'promiscuity'. You do allow a little wiggleroom, but you call anyone who's violent '[not] really Christian' and those who are 'promiscuous' unhealthy.

You may not ever out and say that Christians can do no wrong, but it is heavily implied.

[caveBEAR]

Do you honestly think the "god" of a country like Iran is the same as America's God? You've got to be kidding me if you do

Wait! Wait! You think your god is more real than the Islam god?

:rotfl:

[davehennessy]

Wait! Wait! You think your god is more real than the Islam god?

:rotfl:

I'm not saying Muslims don't have a right to believe whatever they want.. anyone can believe whatever they want. If they believe their 'god' is real, then it can be real to them

[caveBEAR]

I'm not saying Muslims don't have a right to believe whatever they want.. anyone can believe whatever they want. If they believe their 'god' is real, then it can be real to them

You condescending fuck. Why do you get to make heavy-handed comments about morality that are obviously driven by belief in your god, then blithely write off a whole major religion as essentially a whimsy. You're such a tool, and the best part is, you have no clue. I have work, I hope this message reaches you all the way up there on your pedestal.

[davehennessy]

You condescending fuck. Why do you get to make heavy-handed comments about morality that are obviously driven by belief in your god, then blithely write off a whole major religion as essentially a whimsy. You're such a tool, and the best part is, you have no clue. I have work, I hope this message reaches you all the way up there on your pedestal.

You're not even understanding what I'm saying. I'm not, in any way, "writing off" any religion (whether it's widely-believed or not). Anyone has the right to believe whatever they want. With that said, how does that put me on a pedestal? I'm not in any way trying to glorify myself or my religion. In fact, self-glorification goes against what religion stands for, so you clearly have no idea what you're saying

[GeeBee]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran

And?

[GeeBee]

You're not even understanding what I'm saying. I'm not, in any way, "writing off" any religion (whether it's widely-believed or not). Anyone has the right to believe whatever they want. With that said, how does that put me on a pedestal? I'm not in any way trying to glorify myself or my religion. In fact, self-glorification goes against what religion stands for, so you clearly have no idea what you're saying

What the fuck are you even ARGUING anymore? What's your point? No one knows or cares what the fuck you're talking about. Christ, you and your imaginary god can both leave until EITHER of you can come back with any coherent assertions.

[davehennessy]

What the fuck are you even ARGUING anymore? What's your point? No one knows or cares what the fuck you're talking about. Christ, you and your imaginary god can both leave until EITHER of you can come back with any coherent assertions.

I'm not arguing.. you're the one that's getting fired up over nothing. That's what you believe though, isn't it? Nothing?

[GeeBee]

I'm not arguing.. you're the one that's getting fired up over nothing. That's what you believe though, isn't it? Nothing?

No, I believe in a lot of stuff. Stuff that doesn't require magic and resurrections and virgin births and other such nonsense. You know...stuff that can actually be SUBSTANTIATED by something other than fuzzy warm delusional feelings.

Sod off already. I already don't care. You religious nutjobs are a dime a dozen, and as fun as it is to poke holes in your theories with actual reality, it sometimes gets tiring to deal with such myopic inanity. Go pray for some guidance and let the grown-ups discuss.

[davehennessy]

No, I believe in a lot of stuff

And what would that "stuff" be? At this point I'm just curious

[xshady121]

Do you honestly think the "god" of a country like Iran is the same as America's God? You've got to be kidding me if you do

Please, elaborate. I seriously can't wait for this one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Iran

Wait! Wait! You think your god is more real than the Islam god?

:rotfl:

I'm not saying Muslims don't have a right to believe whatever they want.. anyone can believe whatever they want. If they believe their 'god' is real, then it can be real to them

You're not even understanding what I'm saying. I'm not, in any way, "writing off" any religion (whether it's widely-believed or not). Anyone has the right to believe whatever they want. With that said, how does that put me on a pedestal? I'm not in any way trying to glorify myself or my religion. In fact, self-glorification goes against what religion stands for, so you clearly have no idea what you're saying

What the fuck are you even ARGUING anymore? What's your point? No one knows or cares what the fuck you're talking about. Christ, you and your imaginary god can both leave until EITHER of you can come back with any coherent assertions.

As a religious person (again, christian if you want to call it that) and a (potentially former) Religious Studies major (or a current religious studies minor), for anyone to assert that the American (or Christian as he is using interchangeably) and the Middle East's god (which is ignorant in itself for obvious reasons) aren't the same is laughably ignorant and outright wrong.

[J.C.]

Negative statistics on issues like homicide and teen pregnancy would not rise exponentially in a Christian nation

Those statistics would be the result of socioeconomic conditions, not any religious affiliation. The resources (or lack thereof) you have access to and the perception of where you sit on the class ladder will drive a decision like that moreso than a faith. In fact, those factors are more likely to shape one's faith than vice versa.

Being a Christian doesn't make you less likely to behave in what you might deem to be an immoral manner.

[davehennessy]

As a religious person (again, christian if you want to call it that) and a (potentially former) Religious Studies major (or a current religious studies minor), for anyone to assert that the American (or Christian as he is using interchangeably) and the Middle East's god (which is ignorant in itself for obvious reasons) aren't the same is laughably ignorant and outright wrong.

When I say the Middle East's god (originally referring to Iran), I don't mean the God that is America's God; I'm referring to the god that isn't. I'm well aware that there are Christians in the Middle East and surrounding countries, however those aren't the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about people that believe in a god that is other than the God of America and other Christian nations

[davehennessy]

Being a Christian doesn't make you less likely to behave in what you might deem to be an immoral manner.

I completely disagree. What makes you think this?

[xshady121]

When I say the Middle East's god (originally referring to Iran), I don't mean the God that is America's God; I'm referring to the god that isn't. I'm well aware that there are Christians in the Middle East and surrounding countries, however those aren't the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about people that believe in a god that is other than the God of America and other Christian nations

The terms America and Christian aren't interchangeable.

[J.C.]

I completely disagree. What makes you think this?

You're asking me why I don't think Christians are inherently better people than everyone else?

It would make more sense for you to explain to me why that would be so.

[davehennessy]

The terms America and Christian aren't interchangeable.

I realize this, but for the sake of this entire conversation I'm playing off of the '75% of America aligns itself with the Christian faith' statistic (which may or may not be entirely accurate)

[davehennessy]

You're asking me why I don't think Christians are inherently better people than everyone else?

It would make more sense for you to explain to me why that would be so.

All I'm saying is that when someone sincerely takes on the Christian faith, they also agree to live a lifestyle (or try to the best of their ability to) that is guided by certain moral and ethical 'codes' so to speak. By saying this:

Being a Christian doesn't make you less likely to behave in what you might deem to be an immoral manner.

you're completely ignoring the fact that self-discipline is an important part of the Christian religion, as well as many other religions I would believe

[J.C.]

All I'm saying is that when someone sincerely takes on the Christian faith, they also agree to live a lifestyle (or try to the best of their ability to) that is guided by certain moral and ethical 'codes' so to speak. By saying this:



you're completely ignoring the fact that self-discipline is an important part of the Christian religion, as well as many other religions I would believe

You're not more likely to adhere to or honor self-discipline just because you're a Christian. Your premise is small-minded.

Studies would show that something like teen pregnancy rates, which you alluded to before, are actually higher in the most religiously conservative states in the country: http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/religions-link-to-teen-pregnancy/

There's been endless research done into stuff like this. Religion could be indicative of how you might publicly address the idea of sex, but it really has no bearing on what you're likely or not likely to do behind closed doors.

[davehennessy]

You're not more likely to adhere to or honor self-discipline just because you're a Christian. Your premise is small-minded.

I feel like this is something you'll only understand if you actually take on Christianity. If you even simply learned more about it, I'm sure you would come to understand what having a faith is all about (self-discipline being a huge part of it/Christianity)

[xshady121]

You're not more likely to adhere to or honor self-discipline just because you're a Christian. Your premise is small-minded.

Studies would show that something like teen pregnancy rates, which you alluded to before, are actually higher in the most religiously conservative states in the country: http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/religions-link-to-teen-pregnancy/

There's been endless research done into stuff like this. Religion could be indicative of how you might publicly address the idea of sex, but it really has no bearing on what you're likely or not likely to do behind closed doors.

And studies have proven (a few weeks ago actually) that abstinence only education proved to be more effective than others.

me playing devils advocate here, but I agree with you, this guy is a nutjob

[xshady121]

I feel like this is something you'll only understand if you actually take on Christianity. If you even simply learned more about it, I'm sure you would come to understand what having a faith is all about (self-discipline being a huge part of it/Christianity)

And I suppose that Christians that don't conform to your kool aid drinking mentality just don't truly get Christianity, amirite?

[J.C.]

I feel like this is something you'll only understand if you actually take on Christianity. If you even simply learned more about it, I'm sure you would come to understand what having a faith is all about (self-discipline being a huge part of it/Christianity)

I know what it's like to have faith, I grew up Roman-Catholic. Don't give me that "you don't understand it" bullshit.

I've gone my entire time on this Earth without sex, alcohol, illegal drugs, or tobacco. You don't need to explain to me the concept of self-discipline and who's capable or not capable of abiding by it.

[davehennessy]

And I suppose that Christians that don't conform to your kool aid drinking mentality just don't truly get Christianity, amirite?

It's not a matter of having a personal mentality, I'm talking about the guidelines of the Christian faith. There are people that claim to be Christian but don't put the effort into living like one at all, and that's probably the most unfortunate of all cases

[davehennessy]

I know what it's like to have faith, I grew up Roman-Catholic. Don't give me that "you don't understand it" bullshit.

I've gone my entire time on this Earth without sex, alcohol, illegal drugs, or tobacco. You don't need to explain to me the concept of self-discipline and who's capable or not capable of abiding by it.

If you understand self-discipline in religion, then that's great. However if that's the case, I don't understand why you're making comments like

You're not more likely to adhere to or honor self-discipline just because you're a Christian

[Praetor]

If you understand self-discipline in religion, then that's great. However if that's the case, I don't understand why you're making comments like

He's saying that's not the only source of self-discipline.

[J.C.]

If you understand self-discipline in religion, then that's great.

Self-discipline is not exclusive to religion.

However if that's the case, I don't understand why you're making comments like

Because calling yourself a Christian and saying you're guided by self-discipline doesn't mean you're any more likely to honor it than anyone else. We're all human. You're not intrinsically better.

[xshady121]

Self-discipline is not exclusive to religion.



Because calling yourself a Christian and saying you're guided by self-discipline doesn't mean you're any more likely to honor it than anyone else. We're all human. You're not intrinsically better.

But dude, he's a christian

[davehennessy]

Self-discipline is not exclusive to religion.



Because calling yourself a Christian and saying you're guided by self-discipline doesn't mean you're any more likely to honor it than anyone else. We're all human. You're not intrinsically better.

I'm not putting myself up on a pedestal. I'm not saying that because I'm Christian, I can't make any mistakes.. everyone makes mistakes. But what you fail to see is that people who sincerely practice and live their faith every day are more likely to have stronger self-discipline. Just because they have stronger self-discipline than someone else doesn't necessarily make them perfect, obviously, but they are more likely to make morally and ethically correct decisions, simply because their faith tells them they need to in order to live a healthy lifestyle

[J.C.]

I'm not putting myself up on a pedestal. I'm not saying that because I'm Christian, I can't make any mistakes.. everyone makes mistakes.

I said Christians weren't any less prone to making 'mistakes' than anybody else and you took exception to that statement. That was clearly putting you and your faith on a pedestal.

But what you fail to see is that people who sincerely practice and live their faith every day are more likely to have stronger self-discipline.

You've altered your premise. It's gone from all those who identify themselves as Christians to just the ones that live up to your standards.

Just because they have stronger self-discipline than someone else doesn't necessarily make them perfect, obviously, but they are more likely to make morally and ethically correct decisions, simply because their faith tells them they need to in order to live a healthy lifestyle

http://www.getreligion.org/wp-content/photos/2009/11/ted-haggard.jpg

In many instances, that 'lifestyle' is just as likely to lead to a release of built-up repression.

[davehennessy]

You've altered your premise. It's gone from all those who identify themselves as Christians to just the ones that live up to your standards.

It's not about me.. it's about God's standards, the only ones that matter. Having strong self-discipline is something all Christians are required by God to have, and living a Christian lifestyle is also an agreement people make when taking on Christianity. If you are trying your hardest to live up to those standards, you are practicing strong self-discipline. If you aren't, then you are more likely to make bad decisions.. it's that simple

[Smash Adams]

http://i25.tinypic.com/wk2tjc.jpg
I concur Anderson

[GeeBee]

And what would that "stuff" be? At this point I'm just curious

Stuff (as it regards me) = nothing having to do with the childish, vindictive, petty, sadistic fuckwad that is the Christian god.

Is that precise enough for you?

[GeeBee]

When I say the Middle East's god (originally referring to Iran), I don't mean the God that is America's God; I'm referring to the god that isn't. I'm well aware that there are Christians in the Middle East and surrounding countries, however those aren't the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about people that believe in a god that is other than the God of America and other Christian nations

And yet you still fail to grasp that they believe their god is the greatest and most best just as much (if not moreso) than you do. So whose is it? They can't BOTH possibly be true, can they? What of the nearly 2500 OTHER gods throughout history. You have the audacity not only to claim that the Christian god is the 1 in 2,499 that is ACTUALLY god, but also that he somehow stands at the head of the country that you are a citizen of?

Ever find it odd that no one ever thinks god is leading a country OTHER than theirs? Isn't THAT strange? Or that god actually disagrees with them on something?

[davehennessy]

Stuff (as it regards me) = nothing having to do with the childish, vindictive, petty, sadistic fuckwad that is the Christian god.

Is that precise enough for you?

You just put yourself in a really rough spot by saying that. And no, that doesn't exactly answer my question. I asked what you believe in, not what you don't believe

[davehennessy]

And yet you still fail to grasp that they believe their god is the greatest and most best just as much (if not moreso) than you do. So whose is it? They can't BOTH possibly be true, can they? What of the nearly 2500 OTHER gods throughout history. You have the audacity not only to claim that the Christian god is the 1 in 2,499 that is ACTUALLY god, but also that he somehow stands at the head of the country that you are a citizen of?

Ever find it odd that no one ever thinks god is leading a country OTHER than theirs? Isn't THAT strange? Or that god actually disagrees with them on something?

The destiny of a country is the work of God, whether the country believes in him or not. And you're right, there is only one true God, and yes it is my God. Do you actually think I would bother continuing to post if I didn't know what I was talking about? I know you'll just come right back at this post with a laugh and a few other insults, but that just goes to show how ignorant you really are. I'm sure you've heard the argument a million times, but here it is again: How is it that the Bible, the book of the Christian God and faith, has survived thousands of years and been translated into over 390 different languages? If the Bible or the Christian faith really isn't true (as you claim), why has it survived? Why is it so wide-spread and accepted by countries and cultures around the entire world? By making the statement that Christianity is some sort of fluke or mumbo jumbo that no one gives a shit about, you are being completely ignorant

[paper halo]

Did someone just try to use the bible as proof of itself? This gets better.

You just put yourself in a really rough spot by saying that. And no, that doesn't exactly answer my question. I asked what you believe in, not what you don't believe

Lol. Is he going to be smote now?

[Theseventhson]

The destiny of a country is the work of God, whether the country believes in him or not. And you're right, there is only one true God, and yes it is my God. Do you actually think I would bother continuing to post if I didn't know what I was talking about? I know you'll just come right back at this post with a laugh and a few other insults, but that just goes to show how ignorant you really are. I'm sure you've heard the argument a million times, but here it is again: How is it that the Bible, the book of the Christian God and faith, has survived thousands of years and been translated into over 390 different languages? If the Bible or the Christian faith really isn't true (as you claim), why has it survived? Why is it so wide-spread and accepted by countries and cultures around the entire world? By making the statement that Christianity is some sort of fluke or mumbo jumbo that no one gives a shit about, you are being completely ignorant
The entire world is Christian? I didn't know everybody lives by and reads the bible, thanks.

[GeeBee]

The destiny of a country is the work of God, whether the country believes in him or not.
A statement you can substantiate in the slightest.
Do you actually think I would bother continuing to post if I didn't know what I was talking about?
Not knowing what you're talking about hasn't stopped you yet...
I know you'll just come right back at this post with a laugh and a few other insults, but that just goes to show how ignorant you really are.
Yep.
I'm sure you've heard the argument a million times, but here it is again: How is it that the Bible, the book of the Christian God and faith, has survived thousands of years and been translated into over 390 different languages?
Cultural relevance =/= truth.
If the Bible or the Christian faith really isn't true (as you claim), why has it survived?
If Santa wasn't real, how do so many people continue to believe in him?
Why is it so wide-spread and accepted by countries and cultures around the entire world?
Newsflash- the majority of the world isn't Christian. THEY couldn't all be wrong, could they?
By making the statement that Christianity is some sort of fluke or mumbo jumbo that no one gives a shit about, you are being completely ignorant
Well, I never claimed no one gave a shit. But the fact that it's mumbo jumbo is apparent in the bible's own demonstrably false claims about creation, semetic tribes anywhere near Egypt EVER, a flood, an exodus, a reign of David, Solomon's supposed temple, and precious little evidence that a historic christ even existed. Not to mention the absolutely ZERO evidence of any god whatsoever. So yeah, a lot of people care about American Idol. That doesn't make it any less bullshit.

And you're right, there is only one true God, and yes it is my God.
Then fuck you both. Even if you could PROVE the Christian god was the "one true god", I'd spit in his face.

[GeeBee]

You just put yourself in a really rough spot by saying that. And no, that doesn't exactly answer my question. I asked what you believe in, not what you don't believe

a) I'm really scared. :rolleyes:
b) what I believe in is beyond your comprehension, because it actually involves critical thinking skills.
c) what I believe in is frankly none of your fucking business.

[xshady121]

Then fuck you both. Even if you could PROVE the Christian god was the "one true god", I'd spit in his face.

Well, my christian god isn't as much of a douchebag as this guy wants us to believe. Please don't spit in his face.

[GeeBee]

Well, my christian god isn't as much of a douchebag as this guy wants us to believe. Please don't spit in his face.

Well, with all due respect to you...if your god is the same guy quoted in the Bible, he's precisely the douchebag I'm talking about.

[xshady121]

Well, with all due respect to you...if your god is the same guy quoted in the Bible, he's precisely the douchebag I'm talking about.
You mean the douchebags that wrote it?

I had to go to an AoG church for my sociology class, and the whole "only christians get salvation" concept was so lost on me. How any sort of omnipotent god would only "save" the few who believed in him mind-boggling and a complete bastardization of the texts. Then again, it comes down to are the texts an actual representation of God, which I don't believe they are, and don't believe they are necessary in order to believe in christianity. The divine nature of the texts are irrelevant.

[GeeBee]

You mean the douchebags that wrote it?

I had to go to an AoG church for my sociology class, and the whole "only christians get salvation" concept was so lost on me. How any sort of omnipotent god would only "save" the few who believed in him mind-boggling and a complete bastardization of the texts. Then again, it comes down to are the texts an actual representation of God, which I don't believe they are, and don't believe they are necessary in order to believe in christianity. The divine nature of the texts are irrelevant.

So, if I understand you correctly...you're not necessarily of the opinion that the Bible represents "the word of god"?

That I can get behind. I can support a non-literal, blatant cherrypicking of the good parts of the bible as a guiding mythology (like many stories with a moral). What I can't and won't get behind is FEAR being a guiding factor of worship. And that seems to be the overarching theme of the Bible. No one would worship a HUMAN they feared retribution from, but hoards of people rush to worship a DEITY they fear eternities of retribution from. Stalin comes to mind in that regard.

[xshady121]

So, if I understand you correctly...you're not necessarily of the opinion that the Bible represents "the word of god"?

That I can get behind. I can support a non-literal, blatant cherrypicking of the good parts of the bible as a guiding mythology (like many stories with a moral). What I can't and won't get behind is FEAR being a guiding factor of worship. And that seems to be the overarching theme of the Bible. No one would worship a HUMAN they feared retribution from, but hoards of people rush to worship a DEITY they fear eternities of retribution from. Stalin comes to mind in that regard.

My view of the bible is that it's essentially stories past down from generations to generations and not an actual word of god. It would be foolish for anyone to actually believe so. The far more likely scenario is that people were either a) telling stories to explain the unexplainable (see: the creation stories) or b) a story that started out "dude, we got 4 inches of rain, it was like the world was going to end" ended up being "We got 40 days of rain and the world actually ended". It was a miserable game of telephone. How anyone believes things actually happened as they are said in the bible (really guys, Abraham lived to be 700 years old?) is quite beyond me. . It is one of the reasons I love the film "The Last Temptation of Christ". That's probably significantly more accurate than anything the people who have bastardized the texts would claim.

[GeeBee]

My view of the bible is that it's essentially stories past down from generations to generations and not an actual word of god. It would be foolish for anyone to actually believe so. The far more likely scenario is that people were either a) telling stories to explain the unexplainable (see: the creation stories) or b) a story that started out "dude, we got 4 inches of rain, it was like the world was going to end" ended up being "We got 40 days of rain and the world actually ended". Anyone that believes things actually happened as they are said in the bible (really guys, Abraham lived to be 700 years old?). It is one of the reasons I love the film "The Last Temptation of Christ". That's probably significantly more accurate than anything the people who have bastardized the texts would claim.

This is good. I'll not spit in your god's face, I guess :-d. But tell him I'll be watching...

[live.]

My view of the bible is that it's essentially stories past down from generations to generations and not an actual word of god. It would be foolish for anyone to actually believe so. The far more likely scenario is that people were either a) telling stories to explain the unexplainable (see: the creation stories) or b) a story that started out "dude, we got 4 inches of rain, it was like the world was going to end" ended up being "We got 40 days of rain and the world actually ended". It was a miserable game of telephone. How anyone believes things actually happened as they are said in the bible (really guys, Abraham lived to be 700 years old?) is quite beyond me. . It is one of the reasons I love the film "The Last Temptation of Christ". That's probably significantly more accurate than anything the people who have bastardized the texts would claim.

So if you believe in your Christian god, what do you base your beliefs in him/Christ off of if you don't have any stake in the Bible? This is not an attack, just mere curiosity.

[xshady121]

So if you believe in your Christian god, what do you base your beliefs in him/Christ off of if you don't have any stake in the Bible? This is not an attack, just mere curiosity.

I don't believe acceptance of the bible as literal word is necessary in order to believe in God (Or jesus christ).

[live.]

I don't believe acceptance of the bible as literal word is necessary in order to believe in God (Or jesus christ).

Ah, okay I misunderstood what you wrote. Word up I'm with you on that. Although if somebody is going to cherry pick and use select passages as 100% truth, then I have a problem when they won't acknowledge the rest of the text (at least from the same book/author) as such.

[caveBEAR]

You just put yourself in a really rough spot by saying that.

No way, no way! You don't mean 'tough spot' like 'wrath of god', do you?

:rotfl:

[GeeBee]

No way, no way! You don't mean 'tough spot' like 'wrath of god', do you?

:rotfl:

When I woke up this morning, all my herds were stricken with disease, storms had wiped out my barns, my servants all had scurvy, and my wife's womb was barren!

[live.]

When I woke up this morning, all my herds were stricken with disease, storms had wiped out my barns, my servants all had scurvy, and my wife's womb was barren!

Don't sweat it brother, you've got another 500 years ahead of you!

[xshady121]

When I woke up this morning, all my herds were stricken with disease, storms had wiped out my barns, my servants all had scurvy, and my wife's womb was barren!

:lol:

[caveBEAR]

When I woke up this morning, all my herds were stricken with disease, storms had wiped out my barns, my servants all had scurvy, and my wife's womb was barren!

:rotfl:

[BadRomance]

I was born into a Muslim family.

However I made the decision, 3 years ago, to leave the religion. I'm now an Atheist. For me, personally, I can't fathom the concept of God, I've read the Qu'ran, The Bible, The Old testement etc I tried getting into more pagan religions like Wicca. Everything disappointed me.

Atheism is the only rational theory, its pretty much fact in my view, and I totally believe in the evolution theory.

[xshady121]

I was born into a Muslim family.

However I made the decision, 3 years ago, to leave the religion. I'm now an Atheist. For me, personally, I can't fathom the concept of God, I've read the Qu'ran, The Bible, The Old testement etc I tried getting into more pagan religions like Wicca. Everything disappointed me.

Atheism is the only rational theory, its pretty much fact in my view, and I totally believe in the evolution theory.

Religious creationism and evolution aren't mutually exclusive.

[caveBEAR]

I was born into a Muslim family.

However I made the decision, 3 years ago, to leave the religion. I'm now an Atheist. For me, personally, I can't fathom the concept of God, I've read the Qu'ran, The Bible, The Old testement etc I tried getting into more pagan religions like Wicca. Everything disappointed me.

Atheism is the only rational theory, its pretty much fact in my view, and I totally believe in the evolution theory.

Well, this says wonders about your decision making skills.

[BadRomance]

Well, this says wonders about your decision making skills.
Yes it was a poor decision. No offence to any Wiccans out there, but it seriously is such a questionable religion/cult...some of their practices are just....weird to say the least.

[peder458]

Science 101. Correlation does not imply causation.


Correlation does not prove causation; correlation most certainly can imply causation.

[peder458]

Religious creationism and evolution aren't mutually exclusive.

I agree with you - it all depends on how literal you take the bible. I have seen/met/heard of very few christians who would state that they believe in evolution and also label themselves as "creationists".

[peder458]

Ah, okay I misunderstood what you wrote. Word up I'm with you on that. Although if somebody is going to cherry pick and use select passages as 100% truth, then I have a problem when they won't acknowledge the rest of the text (at least from the same book/author) as such.

Agreed, well put.

[x togepi x]

The destiny of a country is the work of God, whether the country believes in him or not.

Awesome!

We have an increasing tolerance towards homosexuals, this must mean that it's our destiny to not hate the gays, which means you're going against God by opposing gay marriage.

[BadRomance]

The destiny of a country is the work of God?

That comment sounded like something those crazy Westbro baptist church people (aka "God hates ****" http://www.godhatesfags.com/) would say.

[davehennessy]

Awesome!

We have an increasing tolerance towards homosexuals, this must mean that it's our destiny to not hate the gays, which means you're going against God by opposing gay marriage.

Clueless

[x togepi x]

Clueless

If you're going to call me clueless, you should probably try and respond to my points about gay marriage that you didn't reply to a few pages back.

You're not a Christian. You're just an asshole who uses a religion to justify oppressing other people. it's just cool because you happen to have gay friends that you don't think are worth first class citizenship but hey, they're totally awesome when they can let you make a cheap rhetorical point.

[caveBEAR]

Clueless

Someone once said something about a pot and a kettle...what was it again?

[davehennessy]

If you're going to call me clueless, you should probably try and respond to my points about gay marriage that you didn't reply to a few pages back.

You're not a Christian. You're just an asshole who uses a religion to justify oppressing other people. it's just cool because you happen to have gay friends that you don't think are worth first class citizenship but hey, they're totally awesome when they can let you make a cheap rhetorical point.

You can disagree with me all you want, but you do not tell me I'm not a Christian. Obviously my posts imply I'm Christian, and I have certain viewpoints on issues you may completely disagree on, which is fine, but if you're going to tell me my faith isn't what it is, you're pathetic and immature

[caveBEAR]

You can disagree with me all you want, but you do not tell me I'm not a Christian. Obviously my posts imply I'm Christian, and I have certain viewpoints on issues you may completely disagree on, which is fine, but if you're going to tell me my faith isn't what it is, you're pathetic and immature

Oh, there's no doubt in our minds that you think you're a 'Christian'. Some of the smarter people on this board who follow the path of Christianity may question your understanding of some of their beliefs as well as your decision making skills, but I don't think anyone believes that you identify with anything other than 'Christian', which is a shame to all good natured Christians out there.

[davehennessy]

Oh, there's no doubt in our minds that you think you're a 'Christian'. Some of the smarter people on this board who follow the path of Christianity may question your understanding of some of their beliefs as well as your decision making skills, but I don't think anyone believes that you identify with anything other than 'Christian', which is a shame to all good natured Christians out there.

I think you should probably keep your mouth shut on this one. Disagreeing with Christian viewpoints is fine, but to tell me I'm a bad example of a Christian when you want nothing to do with a similar faith is crossing the line

[x togepi x]

You can disagree with me all you want, but you do not tell me I'm not a Christian. Obviously my posts imply I'm Christian, and I have certain viewpoints on issues you may completely disagree on, which is fine, but if you're going to tell me my faith isn't what it is, you're pathetic and immature

You're not a Christian.

You're supposed to love sinners. Delegating those who are different than you to second class status is not love. Telling posters on here that they're going to go to hell because they don't agree with you, which is what you did in the GBLT thread, is not love.

I don't care what you think your faith is. I don't care if you can't sit here and tell me what the bible supposedly says based on your warped interpretation of it. The fact of the matter is your actions on this website show that you missed a big chunk of Christian teachings. You got the fundamentalism down, but it's sad that you missed basically every post-1800s development in Christianity aside from evangelicalism's tired pointless teachings.

and the fact that you get so pissy about this is proof of your hubris.

[davehennessy]

You're not a Christian.

You're supposed to love sinners. Delegating those who are different than you to second class status is not love. Telling posters on here that they're going to go to hell because they don't agree with you, which is what you did in the GBLT thread, is not love.

I don't care what you think your faith is. I don't care if you can't sit here and tell me what the bible supposedly says based on your warped interpretation of it. The fact of the matter is your actions on this website show that you missed a big chunk of Christian teachings. You got the fundamentalism down, but it's sad that you missed basically every post-1800s development in Christianity aside from evangelicalism's tired pointless teachings.

and the fact that you get so pissy about this is proof of your hubris.

No one's perfect. I do try to love sinners, and everyone, as much as I can, but no one is perfect. I never deemed anyone different than me to a 'lower class'.. you misinterpret what I say, quite often at that. The fact that I said someone was going to hell (which I did, I won't not admit it) is just truth. Perhaps I'm not one to judge or say such a thing, but reading it in the Bible is the same thing. And again, don't tell me I'm not a Christian. Anyone can say whatever they want as far as defending or questioning a belief, but the minute you tell me I'm not a Christian and that I don't act out my faith in a correct way you're crossing the line. It would be one thing if you were also Christian, had shared some of the same experiences as me or know some people I know, but you don't. The fact that you're telling me I don't believe in what I believe in based on a few posts on some website is incredibly immature, and before you continue I'll point out that a) no one cares and b) again, you don't know what you're talking about. You're running your mouth about things you don't have any realization of, so I suggest you can it and keep your pathetic and completely incorrect assumptions to yourself

[x togepi x]

No one's perfect. I do try to love sinners, and everyone, as much as I can, but no one is perfect.

This is a cheap rhetorical trick that is completely nonresponsive.

I didn't say you had to be perfect 100% of the time. I said that the logical extensions of you conceptualization of Christianity is not Christian. You're in the game of judging those different from you. This is prevalent in your opposition to same sex marriage as well as your telling people in that thread that they're going to hell for disagreeing with you.

This is a pattern of behavior that's a choice, not you slipping up because you're not a perfect person. To try and write these criticisms off like this kind of proves my point.

I never deemed anyone different than me to a 'lower class'.. you misinterpret what I say, quite often at that.

You won't let homosexuals have basic human rights. You brag about lowering yourself to their place by having them as friends. The idea that you're thinking of people as higher and lower classes is implicit in your posts.

The fact that I said someone was going to hell (which I did, I won't not admit it) is just truth. Perhaps I'm not one to judge or say such a thing, but reading it in the Bible is the same thing.

Telling someone based on YOUR interpretation of the bible that they're going to hell is not the same thing as reading the bible and it stating that people are going to hell. You're creating a false idol based around your interpretation because you're not God and therefore, you can't make these claims without judging people, which Christians aren't supposed to do. At the end of the day, you can think your interpretation is correct, but you can't make absolutist claims based on it because you're not God.

By doing so, you just use your religion as a brand name and not actually follow through with its teachings.

And again, don't tell me I'm not a Christian.

you're a Christian, but you're not a christian.

Anyone can say whatever they want as far as defending or questioning a belief, but the minute you tell me I'm not a Christian and that I don't act out my faith in a correct way you're crossing the line.

I'm not so sure the bolded is really true when you're talking about Christianity. I also don't see how you telling other people they're going to hell isn't crossing the line but it's oh so bad for me to call you out on your fakeness of religion?

Think of the story of David as told by Nathan: upon hearing the story of his deeds as told by another and exclaiming that person should be punished, David is told that he is that man. This really applies to you in this case.

It would be one thing if you were also Christian, had shared some of the same experiences as me or know some people I know, but you don't.

how do you know?

why does this matter?

What is the relevant level of experience that we must share? We've both read the bible a bunch. I've taken classes on it. We've both obviously debated its teachings. Are you essentially saying i can't talk to you about it because I disagree with you? That's totally not Christian.

The fact that you're telling me I don't believe in what I believe in based on a few posts on some website is incredibly immature, and before you continue I'll point out that a) no one cares and b) again, you don't know what you're talking about. You're running your mouth about things you don't have any realization of, so I suggest you can it and keep your pathetic and completely incorrect assumptions to yourself

I'm not telling you what you don't believe in. I'm telling you that your beliefs are not Christian. There's a huge difference that you're not seeing. Unfortunately, your ego is insanely large (ironic for someone claiming to be a Christian) and more willing to tell someone that they're wrong, that nobody cares what they're saying or that they don't know what they're talking about instead of actually listening to their views and taking it to heart.

I guess I must have missed the part of the bible where Jesus said only listen to people who agree with you 100% of the time.

[davehennessy]

I'm not telling you what you don't believe in. I'm telling you that your beliefs are not Christian. There's a huge difference that you're not seeing. Unfortunately, your ego is insanely large (ironic for someone claiming to be a Christian) and more willing to tell someone that they're wrong, that nobody cares what they're saying or that they don't know what they're talking about instead of actually listening to their views and taking it to heart.

You are seeing my position in this debate as purely attacking, when in fact I am the one defending my beliefs. I have listened to your views (and the views of many other people) and I hear what you're saying, but when you tell me nonsense and make incorrect assumptions about not only me but the Christian faith, I have to say something about it (even if you misinterpret what I say or don't care at all). The fact that I am a Christian is something I take pride in, but that doesn't automatically mean I have a "big ego"... you are simply misunderstanding what I'm saying when I respond to your statements (or perhaps the problem goes deeper, the fact that you haven't come to an ultimate realization of the Christian faith). And to your point on the whole gay community issue: I don't discriminate against gays, they are not 'of a different social class' or anything like that. I am not one to judge, because you're right, I'm not God (who is the only one who can really judge anyone), however, I am of course entitled to my own beliefs. My beliefs are the same as God's, and just because God and I are two completely different levels of understanding (human vs. supernatural), it doesn't mean I don't try to live out my faith (God's desires) the best I can. If I slip up sometimes, I slip up, but everyone does. I may not be perfect, I may not be able to word my opinions exactly the way I want every time, but I know that my beliefs and what I stand for is what God stands for, and that is something you can't speak against, regardless of your opinion of me or anything I say (because you're not me, nor are you God)

[GeeBee]

You are seeing my position in this debate as purely attacking, when in fact I am the one defending my beliefs. I have listened to your views (and the views of many other people) and I hear what you're saying, but when you tell me nonsense and make incorrect assumptions about not only me but the Christian faith, I have to say something about it (even if you misinterpret what I say or don't care at all). The fact that I am a Christian is something I take pride in, but that doesn't automatically mean I have a "big ego"... you are simply misunderstanding what I'm saying when I respond to your statements (or perhaps the problem goes deeper, the fact that you haven't come to an ultimate realization of the Christian faith). And to your point on the whole gay community issue: I don't discriminate against gays, they are not 'of a different social class' or anything like that. I am not one to judge, because you're right, I'm not God (who is the only one who can really judge anyone), however, I am of course entitled to my own beliefs. My beliefs are the same as God's, and just because God and I are two completely different levels of understanding (human vs. supernatural), it doesn't mean I don't try to live out my faith (God's desires) the best I can. If I slip up sometimes, I slip up, but everyone does. I may not be perfect, I may not be able to word my opinions exactly the way I want every time, but I know that my beliefs and what I stand for is what God stands for, and that is something you can't speak against, regardless of your opinion of me or anything I say (because you're not me, nor are you God)

You're not a christian, and Jesus was a gay guy.

Suck it.

[live.]

The destiny of a country is the work of God?

That comment sounded like something those crazy Westbro baptist church people (aka "God hates ****" http://www.godhatesfags.com/) would say.

My favorite group of selective Bible readers!

[xshady121]

I think you should probably keep your mouth shut on this one. Disagreeing with Christian viewpoints is fine, but to tell me I'm a bad example of a Christian when you want nothing to do with a similar faith is crossing the line

How about this: You're a bad example of a christian.

[macabre]

Correlation does not prove causation; correlation most certainly can imply causation.

See: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causatio n

[davehennessy]

You're not a christian, and Jesus was a gay guy.

Suck it.

There's so much immaturity right here I don't know what to do with myself

[GeeBee]

There's so much immaturity right here I don't know what to do with myself

Says the guy who just wrote off an entire planet worth of non-christians as misguided fools. Yeah, you're a bastion of maturity.

[x togepi x]

You are seeing my position in this debate as purely attacking, when in fact I am the one defending my beliefs. I have listened to your views (and the views of many other people)

Your "defense of beliefs" is inherently an attack against the other. I get that you're on the defensive on a forum where basically everyone disagrees with you, but how can you draw a simplistic line like that? There is an obvious conflict in values so I'm afraid you can't say this.

and I hear what you're saying, but when you tell me nonsense and make incorrect assumptions about not only me but the Christian faith, I have to say something about it (even if you misinterpret what I say or don't care at all).

usually when one is spewing nonsense or incorrect assumptions, its easy to point the specific things out, so i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask:

1) what nonsensical or incorrect assumptions have i made about christianity?
2) what nonsensical or incorrect assumptions have i made about you?

I've merely been working with your words. I'm not going to say that you, the person in real life, are anything. I can, however, say a ton about the person posting here, which is what I'm doing. There is a difference.

The fact that I am a Christian is something I take pride in, but that doesn't automatically mean I have a "big ego"... you are simply misunderstanding what I'm saying when I respond to your statements (or perhaps the problem goes deeper, the fact that you haven't come to an ultimate realization of the Christian faith).

You're speaking in vague generalizations here. I want specifics. What exactly am I missing from my "realization of the Christian faith?"

When I'm referring to your ego, I'm referring to the way in which you are responding. Your responses here have been "you're wrong." If you had some explanation for why this is so, then you wouldn't be egotistical, but right now you're basically telling us we should agree with you because you said we're wrong. I mean yeah, the AP.net atheist brigade is quite egotistical too, but they aren't the ones espousing a faith in which one ought to be humble.

And to your point on the whole gay community issue: I don't discriminate against gays, they are not 'of a different social class' or anything like that. I am not one to judge, because you're right, I'm not God (who is the only one who can really judge anyone), however, I am of course entitled to my own beliefs.

You said you would vote for policies that discriminate against them. In what world does that not count as discrimination?

My beliefs are the same as God's

how can you say this?

All you can do as a person is interpret, you're still bound to that interpretation. Since you're not God, (I'm pretty sure. i don't know), i'd like to see how you can make a claim like this.

and just because God and I are two completely different levels of understanding (human vs. supernatural), it doesn't mean I don't try to live out my faith (God's desires) the best I can

I'm not saying this. I'm saying that because of these levels of understanding, as well as the indeterminably inherent in any text, you cannot really make a justifiable claim that you are living out "God's desires". All you can say is that you are living out what you believe are God's desires, but you cannot make this as if you're talking about an absolute truth.

If I slip up sometimes, I slip up, but everyone does. I may not be perfect, I may not be able to word my opinions exactly the way I want every time, but I know that my beliefs and what I stand for is what God stands for, and that is something you can't speak against, regardless of your opinion of me or anything I say (because you're not me, nor are you God)

why not?

I define Christianity in a certain way. You aren't falling into the definition of Christianity. Therefore you're not Christian.

This isn't saying that you're a liar. This isn't saying that you don't really believe in your beliefs. This isn't saying that you're wrong. This is saying that you don't fit within a definition that I am working with. now we can argue all day long about what "Christianity" means, but you can't tell me I cannot make claims against you while you're going around and telling others that they're going to hell or that dudes can't get married.

[x togepi x]

The destiny of a country is the work of God?

That comment sounded like something those crazy Westbro baptist church people (aka "God hates ****" http://www.godhatesfags.com/) would say.

I don't believe in this way of thinking but I can explain it (or attempt to).

One could claim that history is dialectical and that there is some driving force behind history's evolution so that it goes from point A to point B. One could say that this driving force/spirit is God. If you buy into the idea of a dialectic, then you can believe that God would have some sort of part in every conflict that shapes a society. Since the western/modern way of thinking entails this idea of societal progress, one could say that the reason our society is better than past would be because of God's hand in history.

[caveBEAR]

I think you should probably keep your mouth shut on this one.

My mouth hasn't moved, my fingers have. This is called the internet.

As well, did you really threaten me over the internet? 'You should probably keep your mouth shut'.

Or what, big boy?

Disagreeing with Christian viewpoints is fine, but to tell me I'm a bad example of a Christian when you want nothing to do with a similar faith is crossing the line

Crossed what line? You are what I feel is a good example of a bad Christian. I don't need to be of your faith to criticize you and you of all people should know that, as you're obviously not an atheist but you've been slinging insults and 'holier-than-thous' at them all throughout the thread.

:viking:THAT'S CROSSING THE LINE!!

[GeeBee]

My mouth hasn't moved, my fingers have. This is called the internet.

As well, did you really threaten me over the internet? 'You should probably keep your mouth shut'.

Or what, big boy?



Crossed what line? You are what I feel is a good example of a bad Christian. I don't need to be of your faith to criticize you and you of all people should know that, as you're obviously not an atheist but you've been slinging insults and 'holier-than-thous' at them all throughout the thread.

:viking:THAT'S CROSSING THE LINE!!

It's only funny until it's YOUR servants running around with scurvy and you can no longer bear sons. Fear his god, Bear. Fear his god.

[Machu505]

I love this Dave guy. He's so damn intimidating with his e-threats.

[caveBEAR]

It's only funny until it's YOUR servants running around with scurvy and you can no longer bear sons. Fear his god, Bear. Fear his god.

...


Where the fuck did all these frogs come from?





OH LORD! :worship: I repent!

[Smash Adams]

I love this Dave guy. He's so damn intimidating with his e-threats.
I'm the first born so I'm scared

[GeeBee]

I'm the first born so I'm scared

LOL. Don't worry. Have your mother slaughter a lamb, preferably a decent, clean one without broken limbs. Then have her smear the blood of that lamb over your front doorway. The upside is...lambchops for dinner for a WEEK! WooHOO!

[Smash Adams]

LOL. Don't worry. Have your mother slaughter a lamb, preferably a decent, clean one without broken limbs. Then have her smear the blood of that lamb over your front doorway. The upside is...lambchops for dinner for a WEEK! WooHOO!
I'll make sure my mezuzza (sp?) is prevalent too so he'll know we're on his side

[GeeBee]

I'll make sure my mezuzza (sp?) is prevalent too so he'll know we're on his side

In addition, set a spare place at the table...just in case.

[davehennessy]

why not?

I define Christianity in a certain way. You aren't falling into the definition of Christianity. Therefore you're not Christian.

This isn't saying that you're a liar. This isn't saying that you don't really believe in your beliefs. This isn't saying that you're wrong. This is saying that you don't fit within a definition that I am working with. now we can argue all day long about what "Christianity" means, but you can't tell me I cannot make claims against you while you're going around and telling others that they're going to hell or that dudes can't get married.

I respect your responding to me in a structured and non-insulting way, unlike many of the other immature AP.net posters. With that said, perhaps the ultimate problem (and cause of our debate) is that we both have different views of Christianity. Without sounding egotistical, I know what my views are and that they are in line with God's because I know my own faith (seemingly unlike a lot of people on here) and I have grown up in my faith being taught a certain way and expanding my own knowledge with the help of Christians who are close to me. From your posts, you obviously don't agree with my views on Christianity, but don't you think I have at least a little better grasp of it than you do? I'm not saying either one of us is better than the other or anything like that.. I'm speaking straight from a knowledge/understanding viewpoint. It will be a crude analogy, but I just finished watching The Empire Strikes Back about 10 minutes ago, so bear with me:
Would you (or anyone) assume that a stormtrooper would have more knowledge of the force than a jedi who is of it? If the two were having a debate about their points of view on the force, wouldn't you trust and/or respect the jedi's viewpoint more so than the stormtrooper's? (Again, a very crude analogy, but I feel it works here). Relating the analogy to this debate, I would be the jedi and you the stormtrooper, with the force of course being Christianity. If I am of it, and studying it, and trying to live it every day, who are you to say you have a better grasp of it (or to say that I have a weak grasp of it)?

[peder458]

See: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causatio n

I think the wording in wikipedia is misleading... I read the page you linked, but it seems to be somewhat at odds with the quote below - also from wikipedia. The bolded is more or less what I was trying to get at: that you cannot assume a causation from correlation, but correlation can imply a possible (maybe that is the word I was previously missing) causal relationship. Seems to be more an argument from semantics.

"a correlation can be taken as evidence for a possible causal relationship, but cannot indicate what the causal relationship, if any, might be."
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation

[caveBEAR]

It will be a crude analogy, but I just finished watching The Empire Strikes Back about 10 minutes ago, so bear with me:
Would you (or anyone) assume that a stormtrooper would have more knowledge of the force than a jedi who is of it? If the two were having a debate about their points of view on the force, wouldn't you trust and/or respect the jedi's viewpoint more so than the stormtrooper's? (Again, a very crude analogy, but I feel it works here). Relating the analogy to this debate, I would be the jedi and you the stormtrooper, with the force of course being Christianity. If I am of it, and studying it, and trying to live it every day, who are you to say you have a better grasp of it (or to say that I have a weak grasp of it)?

I've got a crude analogy for you, let's say someone watched The Empire Strikes Back, and they're really inspired by this force thing. I mean, it just speaks to them, in a way that leads them to follow their new-found faith to a message board, where they proceed to tell other people that they don't understand The Empire Strikes Back like they do, and insinuate that those who don't agree with them are wrong. They even act like something bad will happen to people who don't like the movie after they die.

Wouldn't you agree that guy would sound like an asshole?

[xshady121]

I respect your responding to me in a structured and non-insulting way, unlike many of the other immature AP.net posters. With that said, perhaps the ultimate problem (and cause of our debate) is that we both have different views of Christianity. Without sounding egotistical, I know what my views are and that they are in line with God's because I know my own faith (seemingly unlike a lot of people on here) and I have grown up in my faith being taught a certain way and expanding my own knowledge with the help of Christians who are close to me. From your posts, you obviously don't agree with my views on Christianity, but don't you think I have at least a little better grasp of it than you do? I'm not saying either one of us is better than the other or anything like that.. I'm speaking straight from a knowledge/understanding viewpoint. It will be a crude analogy, but I just finished watching The Empire Strikes Back about 10 minutes ago, so bear with me:
Would you (or anyone) assume that a stormtrooper would have more knowledge of the force than a jedi who is of it? If the two were having a debate about their points of view on the force, wouldn't you trust and/or respect the jedi's viewpoint more so than the stormtrooper's? (Again, a very crude analogy, but I feel it works here). Relating the analogy to this debate, I would be the jedi and you the stormtrooper, with the force of course being Christianity. If I am of it, and studying it, and trying to live it every day, who are you to say you have a better grasp of it (or to say that I have a weak grasp of it)?



Since we're flashing our papers here and comparing sizes,

I'm a christian, went to a religious school for 8 years, and am A Religious Studies major at my school. With that being said, you're a horrible insult to my fellow Christians. I'm ashamed we believe in the same diety (although, I question if you really believe in the same God as every other christian, and not this bastardization you've created)

[caveBEAR]

:popcorn:

[BadRomance]

Since we're flashing our papers here and comparing sizes,

I'm a christian, went to a religious school for 8 years, and am A Religious Studies major at my school. With that being said, you're a horrible insult to my fellow Christians. I'm ashamed we believe in the same diety (although, I question if you really believe in the same God as every other christian, and not this bastardization you've created)
A tad judgemental, no? and isn't one of the main principals of Christianity to not judge?

His interpretation of Christianity may be quite different from yours, but if you had confidence in your belifs you wouldn't need to question his.

[xshady121]

A tad judgemental, no? and isn't one of the main principals of Christianity to not judge?

His interpretation of Christianity may be quite different from yours, but if you had confidence in your belifs you wouldn't need to question his.

Your new here, so this is your free pass. Use it wisely.

If you view all this guys posts in this thread, (click on name, view all posts in thread), nothing he says is remotely Christian. My god is tolerant of other religions and even people who don't subscribe to his religion. He certainly wouldn't encourage his followers to bad mouth and threaten those who don't believe in him or his ways.

[BadRomance]

Your new here, so this is your free pass. Use it wisely.

If you view all this guys posts in this thread, (click on name, view all posts in thread), nothing he says is remotely Christian. My god is tolerant of other religions and even people who don't subscribe to his religion. He certainly wouldn't encourage his followers to bad mouth and threaten those who don't believe in him or his ways.
I see, after re-reading his posts and I have to agree with you. Even though I'm an Atheist, from what I have studied of Christianity, it seems totally different to what he is talking about.

[davehennessy]

Since we're flashing our papers here and comparing sizes,

I'm a christian, went to a religious school for 8 years, and am A Religious Studies major at my school. With that being said, you're a horrible insult to my fellow Christians. I'm ashamed we believe in the same diety (although, I question if you really believe in the same God as every other christian, and not this bastardization you've created)

I'm ashamed that you talk about a fellow Christian the way you do. I went to a Christian school for 13 years, I have been surrounded by the strongest Christian people you would ever meet.. I would never talk about my faith or my God in a way that I believed to be offensive or incorrect. God knows I only always mean the best, and am trying to communicate my viewpoints effectively (apparently to no avail, but perhaps that isn't my problem). In any case, calling me a "horrible insult to fellow Christians" is a low thing to say. I may not be perfect, and I might not communicate my viewpoints on religion in the most effective ways, but I know what I believe, and it is not some skewed view of Christianity.. I speak from my own experiences and my own knowledge of (my) faith based on what Christians around me have helped me understand throughout my entire life

[live.]

If I am of it, and studying it, and trying to live it every day, who are you to say you have a better grasp of it (or to say that I have a weak grasp of it)?

I think the more you study Christianity, you'll realize how far apart your comments are from what we may be able to infer as the beliefs of God.

[xshady121]

I think the more you study Christianity, you'll realize how far apart your comments are from what we may be able to infer as the beliefs of God.

I think any serious study of religion or specifically christianity goes against what he is saying.

[Moth To A Flame]

I'm ashamed that you talk about a fellow Christian the way you do. I went to a Christian school for 13 years, I have been surrounded by the strongest Christian people you would ever meet.. I would never talk about my faith or my God in a way that I believed to be offensive or incorrect. God knows I only always mean the best, and am trying to communicate my viewpoints effectively (apparently to no avail, but perhaps that isn't my problem). In any case, calling me a "horrible insult to fellow Christians" is a low thing to say. I may not be perfect, and I might not communicate my viewpoints on religion in the most effective ways, but I know what I believe, and it is not some skewed view of Christianity.. I speak from my own experiences and my own knowledge of (my) faith based on what Christians around me have helped me understand throughout my entire life

Please stop talking. You are making us look bad.

[caveBEAR]

and am trying to communicate my viewpoints effectively (apparently to no avail, but perhaps that isn't my problem).

Don't worry, your points are getting across. It's why there's all this backlash.