Intelligent Conversation About Health Care on Facebook - Thanks to Obama

[doppelganger]

I am glad that such important discussion can be held over social-networking sites such as facebook

http://imgur.com/w9m0j.png

[irthesteve]

hahaha, wow...

[shit stroll]

hahah. oh god.

[romantic rights]

Things like this is why I stay off Facebook.



and why our generation is fuuuuuuucked.

[samsara]

oh dear thats dumb.

[thicky eight]

Government run health care = Worst idea.

[SilenceBrokenTT]

I gotta email that to my dad...

[RecklessXRandy]

The last part made me :rotfl:

[jagermeister]

Government run health care = Worst idea.
Government-run healthcare is one of the best things about this country (Canada) and other ones who are able to provide this to its people. Being alive for free > paying to be alive IMO.

[thicky eight]

Government-run healthcare is one of the best things about this country (Canada) and other ones who are able to provide this to its people. Being alive for free > paying to be alive IMO.
LOL, it's not free. You pay a tax for it. And if you need a special procedure you are prohibited from paying for it yourself and would have to leave the country to have it done in a timely manner, unless waiting for months to have your brain tumor removed is the cool thing to do these days.

Free hahahahaha

[jagermeister]

LOL, it's not free. You pay a tax for it. And if you need a special procedure you are prohibited from paying for it yourself and would have to leave the country to have it done in a timely manner, unless waiting for months to have your brain tumor removed is the cool thing to do these days.

Free hahahahaha

Its free in a sense that when I go for medical treatment I don't open my wallet. The Government pays for 70ish% of the costs and taxes (mostly from the sales of alcohol I believe) pay the remainder. If I go to the doctor 100 times in a year the price won't change. If you go twice - you're fucked. Also... no one I've ever known has had to leave the country for any type of operation or wait long if its life-threatening. Perhaps you should reserve your commentary on a subject or service that you actually know about and participate in.

[irthesteve]

Just go watch Sicko, that's my only input on the healthcare system

[thicky eight]

Perhaps you should reserve your commentary on a subject or service that you actually know about and participate in.

Oh, okay. In that case, would you care to explain this to me?

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb241/argonandtrash/1ug.jpg

[J.C.]

This thread's doing an excellent job matching the high-mindedness displayed in the facebook responses.

[jagermeister]

Oh, okay. In that case, would you care to explain this to me?

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb241/argonandtrash/1ug.jpg
I'll take this as a reaction to the fact that you have nothing intelligent or worthwhile to contribute. Man, I cannot wait to finally be 25-years-old... you know, when maturity and adulthood really kicks in. Thanks for setting the example, and further stressing the stereotype that Americans are stupid and rude. (No offense to all the nice ones!)

[Dilwhodie]

Oh, okay. In that case, would you care to explain this to me?

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb241/argonandtrash/1ug.jpg

Bonerjamz09

[thicky eight]

I'll take this as a reaction to the fact that you have nothing intelligent or worthwhile to contribute. Man, I cannot wait to finally be 25-years-old... you know, when maturity and adulthood really kicks in. Thanks for setting the example, and further stressing the stereotype that Americans are stupid and rude. (No offense to all the nice ones!)
Perhaps you should reserve your commentary on a subject or service that you actually know about and participate in.
You get corrected and cite nothing to the contrary of what I say and suddenly I'm misinformed and speaking out of turn simply because I don't live in Mapleland? You mothercanuckers are fucking brilliant and can be corrected on a very simple point then dismiss a person's statements while I have no knowledge and can't make fun of you for... no, I'm just a queer. Good call.

[Machu505]

Government-run healthcare is one of the best things about this country (Canada) and other ones who are able to provide this to its people. Being alive for free > paying to be alive IMO.
I just love it when people say, "You think government-run healthcare is a good idea? Ask a Canadian.", and when you do they say it's the greatest thing ever.

[shit stroll]

Government run health care = Worst idea.
obama isn't for single payer health insurance so why even bring that up in this thread?

[wuduprod]

I just love it when people say, "You think government-run healthcare is a good idea? Ask a Canadian.", and when you do they say it's the greatest thing ever.

true, but then again it makes me think when i Don't ask them and my canadian friends go out of their way to tell me how much it blows.

[thicky eight]

obama isn't for single payer health insurance so why even bring that up in this thread?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-05-20-beer-health-insurance_N.htm

[SilenceBrokenTT]

The last part made me :rotfl:

Bahahahaa....

[absolution]

I will be paying over 60% in taxes by 2011 when I return to New York...and that DOESNT include the free health care and vastly superior schools that I pay for here in the UK...
thats frightening.

[guinness]

Government run health care = Worst idea.

So what's your idea for a better system?

[Super.Panda]

Its free in a sense that when I go for medical treatment I don't open my wallet. The Government pays for 70ish% of the costs and taxes (mostly from the sales of alcohol I believe) pay the remainder. If I go to the doctor 100 times in a year the price won't change. If you go twice - you're fucked. Also... no one I've ever known has had to leave the country for any type of operation or wait long if its life-threatening. Perhaps you should reserve your commentary on a subject or service that you actually know about and participate in.

Lots of the money comes from alcohol, tobaco and other products with a luxury tax on it like perfumes and the gambling industry (casinos, lottery). Anyway, I'm wit hyou on this free health car > dying from typhus in a dark alley.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-05-20-beer-health-insurance_N.htm

ya no.

http://www.factcheck.org/politics/government-run_health_care.html

A group called Conservatives for Patients' Rights began airing a television ad this week that criticizes government-run health care and falsely suggests Congress wants a British-style system here in the U.S.:


The ad neglects to mention that President Obama hasn't proposed a government-run plan and, in fact, has rejected the idea.


Obama hasn’t called for such a government-run plan, also called a “single-payer" plan. In fact, he has flatly rejected it. The administration has said on the White House’s “Health Care” Web page (and previously on its transition site (http://change.gov/agenda/health_care_agenda/)) that “President Obama and Vice President Biden believe” that government-run health care is “wrong.” And they also believe, the administration says, that the other extreme, “letting the insurance companies operate without rules,” is wrong. (The White House redesigned its health care page on April 30; a cached page with the quoted language is attached to this article.)

Obama has long said he would allow individuals or small businesses to buy insurance through a public plan – like the one now available to members of Congress. But nobody would be forced to drop his or her current insurance, and private plans would exist as they do now. This was the health care plan he promoted as a presidential candidate.

As we pointed (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/health_care_spin.html) out (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_mccain.html) several (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/a_bogus_cancer_statistic.html)times during the campaign, Obama's proposal was mischaracterized as a Canadian-style plan by his opponents. In Canada and Britain, all citizens have health care coverage, provided by the government and paid for with taxes. Only two Democrats ran for president on a single-payer platform: Rep. Dennis Kucinich, who called for "Medicare for all," and former Sen. Mike Gravel. Clarification, May 1: Gravel has called his plan (http://www.americanprogressaction.org/events/healthforum/gravel_transcript.html) a “single-payer Health Care Voucher plan,” paid for by the government. But advocates have said (http://www.pnhp.org/news/2007/march/the_corporate_crime_.php) it’s not a true single-payer plan, since private insurance would still play a role.





http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/health_care_spin.html

McCain mischaracterized Obama’s health care plan:

McCain: His plan will force small businesses to cut jobs, reduce wages, and force families into a government run health care system where a bureaucrat stands between you and your doctor.The claim that “small businesses” would have to “cut jobs, reduce wages,” runs counter to Obama’s actual proposal (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/). Obama’s plan would require businesses to contribute to the cost of insurance for employees or pay some unspecified amount into a new public plan. But his proposal specifically says, “Small businesses will be exempt from this requirement.” And it offers additional help to small businesses that want to provide health care in the form of a refundable tax credit of up to half the cost of premiums. We’ll note that neither man has defined what exactly a “small business” is.

Furthermore, Obama’s plan (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/) wouldn’t “force” families into a “government-run health care system.” His plan mandates that children have coverage; there’s no mandate for adults. People can keep the health insurance they have now or chose from private plans, or opt for a new public plan that will offer coverage similar to what members of Congress have. Obama would also expand Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. His plan certainly expands government-offered insurance – and McCain’s doesn’t – but it’s not a solely government-run plan, as McCain implied. And if Obama's public plan turns out to be similar to what federal employees have, as he says it would be, we're not sure how "a bureaucrat" would stand "between you and your doctor." The possible exception would be persons covered by Medicaid or SCHIP.




http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/health_care_spin.html


Obama's plan would:

Create a national system of competing, federally approved private insurance policies and a public plan that offers coverage similar to the Federal Employees Health Benefits Plan (http://www.opm.gov/insure/HEALTH/index.asp), which provides coverage to federal employees and members of Congress. Individuals and small businesses could purchase coverage through this national exchange.
Set national standards for private plans and forbid insurance companies from denying coverage because of preexisting conditions.
Require that children have insurance, offer tax credits to low-income families, and expand coverage under Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Obama has not specified what penalty parents would face if they don't have health coverage for their kids.
Impose a "pay-or-play" requirement under which large companies would either have to offer coverage or pay a portion of premiums for workers, or pay a percentage of payroll into the national public plan. Small businesses would be exempt from the requirement, but could qualify for a refundable tax credit of up to 50 percent of premiums paid for their employees, to encourage them to offer coverage directly. Obama also wants to cover some of the costs of expensive health coverage businesses face for some employees.

I love how i still have to break out stuff from the election.

[INhopewefail]

ya no.








I love how i still have to break out stuff from the election.

Kudos to you, I'm sick of hearsay politics.

[WFUJerseyJon]

Politics Forum.

[TheDemosRock]

Politics Forum, indeed.

[Jason Tate]

You get corrected and cite nothing to the contrary of what I say and suddenly I'm misinformed and speaking out of turn simply because I don't live in Mapleland? You mothercanuckers are fucking brilliant and can be corrected on a very simple point then dismiss a person's statements while I have no knowledge and can't make fun of you for... no, I'm just a queer. Good call.

Dude - you're wrong. Just stop. You're as bad as the facebook kids this thread is making fun of.

[Jason Tate]

I will be paying over 60% in taxes by 2011 when I return to New York...and that DOESNT include the free health care and vastly superior schools that I pay for here in the UK...
thats frightening.

I don't even pay 60%. Come on. Either you can't do math right, your accountant sucks, our you're lying.

[thicky eight]

Dude - you're wrong.
... it makes me think when i Don't ask them and my canadian friends go out of their way to tell me how much it blows.Perhaps you should reserve your commentary on a subject or service that you actually know about and participate in.

Heil only the correct opinions! Democrats heil!

[Jason Tate]

Heil only the correct opinions! Democrats heil!
What you said was in no way an opinion. Trying to pretend it was now, after it's been pointed out that you're wrong ... is ridiculous.

[saysmydoctor]

You can't say 'it's opinion' when you are trying to present facts that aren't at all factual. You are allowed your own opinion, not your own set of facts.

[Adeniz19]

Heil only the correct opinions! Democrats heil!how about you actually try to defend your stances, instead of trolling.

[thicky eight]

What you said was in no way an opinion. Trying to pretend it was now, after it's been pointed out that you're wrong ... is ridiculous.
I don't care about anything so trivial as being right. But, where was it pointed out that I was wrong? Here?

Also... no one I've ever known has had to leave the country for any type of operation or wait long if its life-threatening.
Hold your horses, people... I've never known anybody that has had HIV or AIDS, so, categorically, they must not be real.
Or was I schooled here?

ya no... I love how i still have to break out stuff from the election.
Campaign jargon from last year > legit, reputable news source reporting now?
Damn, I see what you're saying. My bad, bro.

Also, if you're going to give me 5 points for criticizing people at least let me call somebody a name or something. I mean, I make fun of myself a bunch, but I don't count. Oh, and I'd like 2 more points please. I stated a couple hundred posts back that I would like 8 and I only have 6 now. Thank you.

[thicky eight]

You can't say 'it's opinion' when you are trying to present facts that aren't at all factual. You are allowed your own opinion, not your own set of facts.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=canadian+health+care+problems

[saysmydoctor]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=canadian+health+care+problems
Oh, that's right, thanks for clarifying. /sarcasm

No system is without problems. Americans do get quality healthcare. Unfortunately, the rates are overly inflated and some 15 million are uncovered. Canadians do get quality healthcare. Unfortunately, they are all covered and the biggest problem they have is the number of beds/doctors proportional to the number of patients. The Canadian government has already made moves to help curb these issues.

[saysmydoctor]

I like how this showed up in your search: http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/mythbusting-canadian-health-care-part-i

[Adeniz19]

4 links down on your google search

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/canada.asp

We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road.

As noted above, any broad statement about Canada's health insurance program is difficult to assess because Canada has a number of different provincial/territorial programs, not one national program. Wait times for medical procedures in particular can vary quite widely across provinces, cities, and individual hospitals, and of course wait times can also vary widely depending upon the type of procedures involved.

Using Ontario (Canada's most populous province) as an example, we find that provincial wait times (http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/wait_times/providers/wt_pro_mn.html) measured in mid-2007 ranged from 13 days for angioplasty to 297 days for knee replacements.

Similar, median wait times (http://www.healthservices.gov.bc.ca/cpa/mediasite/waitlist/median.html) in British Columbia (measured for the three months ending in July 2007) ranged from 1 week for cancer services to 17.5 weeks for knee replacements.

you act like we don't have wait lists here in the united states either.

[thicky eight]

Oh, that's right, thanks for clarifying. /sarcasm

No system is without problems. Americans do get quality healthcare. Unfortunately, the rates are overly inflated and some 15 million are uncovered. Canadians do get quality healthcare. Unfortunately, they are all covered and the biggest problem they have is the number of beds/doctors proportional to the number of patients. The Canadian government has already made moves to help curb these issues.

And I said I don't find their system to be working well, and that I don't believe the US should move to be more similar. Me thinking this way is not that difficult a thing for people to just accept and move past.

[Adeniz19]

I like how this showed up in your search: http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/mythbusting-canadian-health-care-part-i
it's like he is proving our point for us.

[saysmydoctor]

The waitlists have been cut down drastically too. The media in Canada scrutinizes rather than sensationalizes so the government is actually held more accountable.

It would be awesome if Next Gingrich came in here and said "If Albany can't run healthcare, what makes you think Washington can?" That's like his epic one-liner that all these anti-universal healthcare nuts bust their loads over, as if Albany is representative of the American healthcare system.

[saysmydoctor]

And I said I don't find their system to be working well, and that I don't believe the US should move to be more similar. Me thinking this way is not that difficult a thing for people to just accept and move past.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Ranks above the US, slightly.

Notice France is on top and it's a truly socialized system

[wesgemm08]

I think we should be measuring poor Americans without health insurance that can not afford surgery as having a waiting time of infinity instead of zero.

[thicky eight]

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Ranks above the US, slightly.

Notice France is on top and it's a truly socialized system
What does one thing have to do with another? France is of different geographical size, population, economic conditions, and a thousand other things. I understand your point, but to homogenize every country to the point that these systems are interchangeable is a pipe dream.


it's like he is proving our point for us.
............you do understand the way search engines work, right? If you keep going you'll find porn, too. Maybe even news of an anime convention. When it's a topic of debate you search both sides of the argument will be found, and in abundance. You know this right?

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb241/argonandtrash/1227416957822.jpg

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

wow you are 25?

[saysmydoctor]

What does one thing have to do with another? France is of different geographical size, population, economic conditions, and a thousand other things. I understand your point, but to homogenize every country to the point that these systems are interchangeable is a pipe dream.
As if the WHO doesn't take into account these things? Hence why Canada is ranked at 30. The healthcare coverage has been admitted by the Canadian Government and covered heavily by the Canadian Media as being lackluster in the rural areas and the territories. However, at least everyone is covered.

I personally thinks that's the true goal of healthcare, ensuring it is available to everybody. In Cuba, the coverage may not be the best in the world, but it's more of a fighting chance than those in the US who can't afford any at all. It's sad when a communist government is capable of offering a fighting chance to continue living than the post-industrial democratic society that is the United States. I think that's pretty indefensible.

[Adeniz19]

What does one thing have to do with another? France is of different geographical size, population, economic conditions, and a thousand other things. I understand your point, but to homogenize every country to the point that these systems are interchangeable is a pipe dream.



............you do understand the way search engines work, right? If you keep going you'll find porn, too. Maybe even news of an anime convention. When it's a topic of debate you search both sides of the argument will be found, and in abundance. You know this right?


i understand how to get my information from reputable sources when i perform searches, and snopes was the first one i saw. i'm not going to read every whack jobs opinion on the internet and do your work for you.

[McShredder]

I just love it when people say, "You think government-run healthcare is a good idea? Ask a Canadian.", and when you do they say it's the greatest thing ever.

The 'universal health care system is most appealing to the moderately healthy, middle aged. Ask citizens of these countries what their experience of their 90 year old grandmother trying to get a CABG, it is significantly different. It's also why our country would simply not take to such a rationing of healthcare, the end of life care in the US is drastically different.

Edit: Not that I'm for or against universal healthcare. I just think in our current economic state, its stupid to waste so much money on transition when a number of other measure can be taken to help drastically reduce the costs.

[thicky eight]

As if the WHO doesn't take into account these things? Hence why Canada is ranked at 30. The healthcare coverage has been admitted by the Canadian Government and covered heavily by the Canadian Media as being lackluster in the rural areas and the territories. However, at least everyone is covered.

I personally thinks that's the true goal of healthcare, ensuring it is available to everybody. In Cuba, the coverage may not be the best in the world, but it's more of a fighting chance than those in the US who can't afford any at all. It's sad when a communist government is capable of offering a fighting chance to continue living than the post-industrial democratic society that is the United States. I think that's pretty indefensible.
No, I know such things are considered, and yes, it goes without saying the goal of health care is to ensure the health and longevity of the entire public it serves, but that doesn't mean a virtual 'no child left behind' policy for said health care is the right thing for the whole. It's great when everybody can be as healthy as possible and spend their time and monetary resources for things other than something so simple as broken legs and tooth aches, but with everything there is a bottom line. Sucks, but the US isn't in a place where it can take care of all it's citizens in a pro bono manner and not have the system implode on itself. I don't believe it will be for at least 50 years, and that's only if things go perfectly for a fantastically constructed plan.
You speak very well on this issue, but we just don't and won't see eye-to-eye.


wow you are 25?
wow i am 25? I used to be much more mature but then I realized how inconcequential the serious businesses of the internet really is and I regressed into the bumbling dickhead you see today :D

[thicky eight]

The 'universal health care system is most appealing to the moderately healthy, middle aged. Ask citizens of these countries what their experience of their 90 year old grandmother trying to get a CABG, it is significantly different. It's also why our country would simply not take to such a rationing of healthcare, the end of life care in the US is drastically different.
Exactly.
But don't get into it with these whack jobs. They'll defend the right to live to the age of 45 until they pass out.

[McShredder]

Exactly.
But don't get into it with these whack jobs. They'll defend the right to live to the age of 45 until they pass out.

I agree that many of the European-style systems have an advantage over the US system: CHEAP primary care and preventative medicine.

This works well for many of these nations, but I personally think would fail our larger, much more heterogenous population. Also the time to actually enact these changes for preventative medicine to take ahold would lead to a disastrous 'waiting' period.

[saysmydoctor]

How is the US not in this place as the leader of free world and one of the most developed countries in the world, yet other equally democratic nations and equally developed nations are? Or, like Cuba, nations that are less democratic and less developed?

And now we're whack jobs.

[thicky eight]

How is the US not in this place as the leader of free world and one of the most developed countries in the world, yet other equally democratic nations and equally developed nations are? Or, like Cuba, nations that are less democratic and less developed?

And now we're whack jobs.
Ask those responsible. Politics is a lose-lose game because every branch or topic is intricately tied to other issues, many of which have nothing to do directly with one another other than the fact they simply do. Why are things this way? I'm going to guess it's years and years pretension and pleonasm.

And nah, you're not a whack job. You're one of the few people in this thread capable of having a legit conversation instead of just calling others wrong.

[McShredder]

I forgot to write the huge benefit of the American system, secondary and tertiary care, which is almost (beyond out of pocket, private sources) non-existent in the European style systems. I doubt the American mantra "from each according to his means to each according to his need" would be able to accept some ibuprofen and use a cane because there are mandatory caps on the number of patients receiving anti-TNF drugs, so sorry you're SOL. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[FueledByFrodo]

Heil only the correct opinions! Democrats heil!
Oh my god way to compare Democrats to Nazis. How is this guy dumber than a 14 year old?

[thicky eight]

Oh my god way to compare Democrats to Nazis. How is this guy dumber than a 14 year old?
Remember 2 years ago when you were in 3rd grade and your teacher handed out a piece of paper to everybody in the class with a bunch of instructions on it and everybody followed them but realized they were wrong in doing so because the last instruction was to sit there and not do anything because the whole point of the exercise was to read everything before acting? No, I didn't think so.

[FueledByFrodo]

Remember 2 years ago when you were in 3rd grade and your teacher handed out a piece of paper to everybody in the class with a bunch of instructions on it and everybody followed them but realized they were wrong in doing so because the last instruction was to sit there and not do anything because the whole point of the exercise was to read everything before acting? No, I didn't think so.
Oh I get it. I was supposed to read all of this thread before responding. Ha you're so funny and witty and original and smart. Yeah, I read everything you posted and you came across as extremely stupid.

[abbysmith]

I didn't know that 3 people could be first all at once.

[Adeniz19]

anything is possible on the internet

[zion the lion]

I dont get why facebook cant filter out that word...It's such a horrible word I dont get why they cant just do it like they do on here.

[McShredder]

As if the WHO doesn't take into account these things? Hence why Canada is ranked at 30. The healthcare coverage has been admitted by the Canadian Government and covered heavily by the Canadian Media as being lackluster in the rural areas and the territories. However, at least everyone is covered.

I personally thinks that's the true goal of healthcare, ensuring it is available to everybody. In Cuba, the coverage may not be the best in the world, but it's more of a fighting chance than those in the US who can't afford any at all. It's sad when a communist government is capable of offering a fighting chance to continue living than the post-industrial democratic society that is the United States. I think that's pretty indefensible.

But people right now get care, regardless of insurance or money. It's a myth that people are dying from being sick and untreated in America right now, so long as EMTALA. I have yet to see a patient turned away for medical care, and have worked/studied in some of the poorer areas of the country. And it's not even these people get the bare minimum in care, they get the works.

I don't understand how a Cuba offers a "fighting chance to continue living" more so than the USA. I'm pretty sure end of life treatment is based upon QUALYs, and is non-invasive for the most part. The US system offers a completely different style to end of life care: crank out multiple invasive procedures and spend the 75k to extend life 6 months.

[captainhampton]

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Ranks above the US, slightly.

Notice France is on top and it's a truly socialized system

i like how you always use this one set of rankings to show how bad our health care system truly is. like this set of rankings which uses categories and certain statistics to truly show us which health care system is the best. not that the rankings should be completely ignored, but this is just one formula to evaluate different health care systems. I really wouldn't put too much stock into this.

[Jason Tate]

i like how you always use this one set of rankings to show how bad our health care system truly is. like this set of rankings which uses categories and certain statistics to truly show us which health care system is the best. not that the rankings should be completely ignored, but this is just one formula to evaluate different health care systems. I really wouldn't put too much stock into this.
Feel free to provide data showing how good our health care system is compared to others then. It's quite ridiculous to just ignore something because you don't like what it says. There are a variety of papers (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=health+care+world+rankings&btnG=Search) on the topic, the gross abundance of which don't dramatically alter the rankings - and not one that all of a sudden tosses the USA to the top.

[captainhampton]

Feel free to provide data showing how good our health care system is compared to others then. It's quite ridiculous to just ignore something because you don't like what it says. There are a variety of papers (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=health+care+world+rankings&btnG=Search) on the topic, the gross abundance of which don't dramatically alter the rankings - and not one that all of a sudden tosses the USA to the top.

thank you for those links. I liked this quote from this one:
"The United States spent an estimated $22 billion on research in the health sector in 1999, exclusive of substantial privatesector research and development occurring in pharmaceutical, medical electronics, and other organizations.9 (http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/full/92/1/30#R9) These large allocations have generated major advances in health technologies that are not adequately captured by the WHO methodology."

look my only point was to say that any study that relies on statistics and formulas to develop rankings is going to have some flaws. So, I don't think that a ranking is going to be 100 percent accurate. especially when looking at just one organizations view. like I said before, it should not be ignored though. I will read a little more on the links you provided, but before you attack, don't assume that I think USA health care is so great and doesn't need changes.

[McShredder]

Feel free to provide data showing how good our health care system is compared to others then. It's quite ridiculous to just ignore something because you don't like what it says. There are a variety of papers (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=health+care+world+rankings&btnG=Search) on the topic, the gross abundance of which don't dramatically alter the rankings - and not one that all of a sudden tosses the USA to the top.

So, using this ranking system for healthcare, who is to say that by switching to a European style system the US would move up in rank?

[captainhampton]

I'd also like to point out that the study took into account things like life expectancy, which is flawed because it doesn't take into account things that have nothing to do with how effective our health care system is. The USA for example, has high rates of crimes like homicide and also a high rate of auto accidents and deaths. These are things that can effect our life expectancy rating without having anything to do with the quality of our health care.

[zion the lion]

Wait did someone seriously get banned over this thread?

[Jason Tate]

So, using this ranking system for healthcare, who is to say that by switching to a European style system the US would move up in rank?
Why does that matter? I've never seen a European style purposed.

[Jason Tate]

I'd also like to point out that the study took into account things like life expectancy, which is flawed because it doesn't take into account things that have nothing to do with how effective our health care system is. The USA for example, has high rates of crimes like homicide and also a high rate of auto accidents and deaths. These are things that can effect our life expectancy rating without having anything to do with the quality of our health care.
You don't get health care when you're shot by a gun?

[Jason Tate]

thank you for those links. I liked this quote from this one:
"The United States spent an estimated $22 billion on research in the health sector in 1999, exclusive of substantial privatesector research and development occurring in pharmaceutical, medical electronics, and other organizations.9 (http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/full/92/1/30#R9) These large allocations have generated major advances in health technologies that are not adequately captured by the WHO methodology."

look my only point was to say that any study that relies on statistics and formulas to develop rankings is going to have some flaws. So, I don't think that a ranking is going to be 100 percent accurate. especially when looking at just one organizations view. like I said before, it should not be ignored though. I will read a little more on the links you provided, but before you attack, don't assume that I think USA health care is so great and doesn't need changes.
No one ever made any claim it was 100% accurate. Simply a jumping off point for a conversation - and ample evidence that we are not, by any means, at the top of the health care list.

[xshady121]

I don't care about anything so trivial as being right. But, where was it pointed out that I was wrong? Here?


Hold your horses, people... I've never known anybody that has had HIV or AIDS, so, categorically, they must not be real.
Or was I schooled here?


Campaign jargon from last year > legit, reputable news source reporting now?
Damn, I see what you're saying. My bad, bro.

Also, if you're going to give me 5 points for criticizing people at least let me call somebody a name or something. I mean, I make fun of myself a bunch, but I don't count. Oh, and I'd like 2 more points please. I stated a couple hundred posts back that I would like 8 and I only have 6 now. Thank you.

Please don't get banned, I actually enjoy reading what you have to say

[captainhampton]

You don't get health care when you're shot by a gun?

of course you do. the point is that a health care system does not have an effect on the amount of shootings that take place in the first place.

[captainhampton]

No one ever made any claim it was 100% accurate. Simply a jumping off point for a conversation - and ample evidence that we are not, by any means, at the top of the health care list.
and no one made the claim that US was at the top of the list.

[Adeniz19]

But people right now get care, regardless of insurance or money.Absolutely true, but that doesn't take away that sooner, or later we will have to PAY for that health care. I don't see how good health care can be, if it makes you bankrupt from the medical bills. it's not improving that persons way of life.

[Animalhill]

I personally have had horrible experiences with our healthcare. There are virtually NO resources out there to help an uninsured, not-in-college schizophrenic receive medication (that is over $400 a month with no generic options). Its a fucking shit show. They are just trying to make bucks. If you don't have the cash, you suffer.

[Jason Tate]

of course you do. the point is that a health care system does not have an effect on the amount of shootings that take place in the first place.
Which, according to my rudimentary reading of the formulas used in different rankings, takes this into account.

[Jason Tate]

and no one made the claim that US was at the top of the list.
Correct, no one made any claims. Just said "that list is wrong" - and provided absolutely nothing to the conversation. Pretty much implying that if the list is wrong -- then it's due to the the US v other systems portion.

[captainhampton]

Correct, no one made any claims. Just said "that list is wrong" - and provided absolutely nothing to the conversation.

who said "that list is wrong"?

[Jason Tate]

who said "that list is wrong"?
You (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=43729601#post43729 601).

[McShredder]

Why does that matter? I've never seen a European style purposed.

We're talking about US healthcare vs. other systems internationally and the list which ranked healthcare. Many of the nations above the US were in Europe or used comparable systems...e.g. Canada. While these aren't proposed, many people are referring to these type of systems when the term universal is thrown around. So...it does matter I thought?

[captainhampton]

You (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=43729601#post43729 601).

looks like your rudimentary reading skills are pretty pathetic. you claim I said, "that list is wrong." Find it. I dare you Jason Tate. find it. you can't.

[Jason Tate]

looks like your rudimentary reading skills are pretty pathetic. you claim I said, "that list is wrong." Find it. I dare you Jason Tate. find it. you can't.
I'm pretty sure even you can figure out that I simplified your "I really wouldn't put too much stock into this" post.

[Jason Tate]

We're talking about US healthcare vs. other systems internationally and the list which ranked healthcare. Many of the nations above the US were in Europe or used comparable systems...e.g. Canada. While these aren't proposed, many people are referring to these type of systems when the term universal is thrown around. So...it does matter I thought?
No, maybe people aren't ... which has been pointed out numerous times.

[McShredder]

No, maybe people aren't ... which has been pointed out numerous times.

Can you reiterate that point then? I think I missed it.

[saysmydoctor]

It's not as if the WHO has a vested interest in ensuring the ordering of that list looks favorably on one country over another. God knows how much the US actually gives the WHO. As with all rankings, the criteria leaves room for some error. I doubt there was so much error that the US was mistakenly placed at 37th in the world over 3rd or 4th. The list clearly shows that nations with some form of universal healthcare are those same nations with the better healthcare in the world.

[Jason Tate]

Can you reiterate that point then? I think I missed it.
Seems to have been pretty well done here (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=43715251#post43715 251).

[zion the lion]

I personally have had horrible experiences with our healthcare. There are virtually NO resources out there to help an uninsured, not-in-college schizophrenic receive medication (that is over $400 a month with no generic options). Its a fucking shit show. They are just trying to make bucks. If you don't have the cash, you suffer.

Youre schizophrenic too? Well I'm schizoaffective really and I'm very afraid of what's going to happen to me in a year and two months when I move out of the state to go to school or something. If you find a good family doctor and let them know your situation they'll give a bunch of samples of the medicines you have to take to keep you healthy...thats what my doctor does with my mood stabilizers, anti depressants, and amphetamine.

[McShredder]

Seems to have been pretty well done here (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=43715251#post43715 251).

So what system alternative are people proposing then?

[Animalhill]

Youre schizophrenic too? Well I'm schizoaffective really and I'm very afraid of what's going to happen to me in a year and two months when I move out of the state to go to school or something. If you find a good family doctor and let them know your situation they'll give a bunch of samples of the medicines you have to take to keep you healthy...thats what my doctor does with my mood stabilizers, anti depressants, and amphetamine.
Yeah- I got diagnosed with Paranoid Schizophrenia this year in the middle of recording my bands first full-length (not a fun time). I think NH works differently... in any case I have no insurance like I said, and was told by my doctor that I would have to pay for the meds out of pocket, and that there were no generics. I have absolutely NO money to pay for meds, and my parents won't help me out with it- so for now I'm doing the best I can without them.

[zion the lion]

Yeah- I got diagnosed with Paranoid Schizophrenia this year in the middle of recording my bands first full-length (not a fun time). I think NH works differently... in any case I have no insurance like I said, and was told by my doctor that I would have to pay for the meds out of pocket, and that there were no generics. I have absolutely NO money to pay for meds, and my parents won't help me out with it- so for now I'm doing the best I can without them.

My mom is still in denial about half of it (she's willing to accept the bipolar but not the paranoid schizophrenia) because her mom had it and she saw how hard it was on my grandma. So I get half of the medicine which is nice, but the side effects of the things I have only amplify the schizophrenia. Luckily I'm not in school anymore so it's not like I have full on melt downs there anymore. Honestly I'll never get why or how greed weaseled it's way into an industry that should have been 100% benevolent. It's put a complete halt on my life and what I wanted to do with it.

[Animalhill]

My mom is still in denial about half of it (she's willing to accept the bipolar but not the paranoid schizophrenia) because her mom had it and she saw how hard it was on my grandma. So I get half of the medicine which is nice, but the side effects of the things I have only amplify the schizophrenia. Luckily I'm not in school anymore so it's not like I have full on melt downs there anymore. Honestly I'll never get why or how greed weaseled it's way into an industry that should have been 100% benevolent. It's put a complete halt on my life and what I wanted to do with it.
Trust me I hear you. I've been able to keep my life relatively stable out of sheer willpower. It just makes me fucking livid that there exists a drug to treat it, and because of the socio-economic class I was born into (I call this the "Uterus Lottery") I am unable to access them.

[McShredder]

Trust me I hear you. I've been able to keep my life relatively stable out of sheer willpower. It just makes me fucking livid that there exists a drug to treat it, and because of the socio-economic class I was born into (I call this the "Uterus Lottery") I am unable to access them.

Why don't you claim independence, file taxes showing your low income, apply for medicaid, and use medicaid benefits to obtain rx?

[zion the lion]

Trust me I hear you. I've been able to keep my life relatively stable out of sheer willpower. It just makes me fucking livid that there exists a drug to treat it, and because of the socio-economic class I was born into (I call this the "Uterus Lottery") I am unable to access them.

I think if schizophrenia wasnt so stigmatized it might be easier to get more help. But a majority of people dont even understand the basics of it, which makes people like me ashamed to even say I have it. The two people I actually told walked out of my life because they didnt understand and didnt want to deal with it. And it just makes me feel so bad for the people who cant even afford the smallest bit of help, and then are left homeless because they cant deal with it. But I've learned to just stay stable by self medication, today is one of the first days I'm completely "sober". The fact of the matter is, nobody's going to try to fix the situation until someone way up top on the ladder is affected by it in a huge way, which is sad.

[Animalhill]

Why don't you claim independence, file taxes showing your low income, apply for medicaid, and use medicaid benefits to obtain rx?
Do you know how complicated this is? I have no parents to help me out. I've been on my own since I was 17 dude... its not nearly as easy as it sounds. Especially since I work full-time.

[Animalhill]

I think if schizophrenia wasnt so stigmatized it might be easier to get more help. But a majority of people dont even understand the basics of it, which makes people like me ashamed to even say I have it. The two people I actually told walked out of my life because they didnt understand and didnt want to deal with it. And it just makes me feel so bad for the people who cant even afford the smallest bit of help, and then are left homeless because they cant deal with it. But I've learned to just stay stable by self medication, today is one of the first days I'm completely "sober". The fact of the matter is, nobody's going to try to fix the situation until someone way up top on the ladder is affected by it in a huge way, which is sad.
Exactly- I've learned to not give a fuck. Its no different than suffering from migraines . Its just something that happened to me, and I deal with it.

[jules_x]

I will be paying over 60% in taxes by 2011 when I return to New York...and that DOESNT include the free health care and vastly superior schools that I pay for here in the UK...
thats frightening.

Wth! 60%? Why?
And I thought we paid a lot of taxes (0% up to 45ish%, depending on how much you earn, but it always includes awesome perks)..

[AJ F]

New York is the shittiest state I've ever lived in.

[jules_x]

I dont get why facebook cant filter out that word...It's such a horrible word I dont get why they cant just do it like they do on here.

Ya, racism is for idiots. It's kinda sad how many there are. Then again, I can't get surprised, because it has brought to my attention, there is an extreme amount of idiots in this world.

[bung]

I dont get why facebook cant filter out that word...It's such a horrible word I dont get why they cant just do it like they do on here.

I'm sure they have the ability to filter it.. they just choose not to.

[AJ F]

Ya, racism is for idiots. It's kinda sad how many there are. Then again, I can't get surprised, because it has brought to my attention, there is an extreme amount of idiots in this world.

It seems to me you can't get rid of racism without getting rid of every other arbitrary social factor we use to separate ourselves from the rest of the world.

[jules_x]

It seems to me you can't get rid of racism without getting rid of every other arbitrary social factor we use to separate ourselves from the rest of the world.

Yeah, I guess we need idiots to know there are some who's not.
It's just lame how many they are.

[xshady121]

My mom is still in denial about half of it (she's willing to accept the bipolar but not the paranoid schizophrenia) because her mom had it and she saw how hard it was on my grandma. So I get half of the medicine which is nice, but the side effects of the things I have only amplify the schizophrenia. Luckily I'm not in school anymore so it's not like I have full on melt downs there anymore. Honestly I'll never get why or how greed weaseled it's way into an industry that should have been 100% benevolent. It's put a complete halt on my life and what I wanted to do with it.

capitalism ftw.

[xshady121]

Wth! 60%? Why?
And I thought we paid a lot of taxes (0% up to 45ish%, depending on how much you earn, but it always includes awesome perks)..

nobody here pays 60% in taxes. 45% is the maximum. The poster obviously failed to learn math during his UK stay.

[AJ F]

capitalism ftw.

fucked up but true

[saysmydoctor]

nobody here pays 60% in taxes. 45% is the maximum. The poster obviously failed to learn math during his UK stay.
Think the maximum is actually 37% but I may be wrong.

[xshady121]

Think the maximum is actually 37% but I may be wrong.

Yeah, I don't know. I was just trying to make the point that it certainly isn't 60

[jules_x]

Think the maximum is actually 37% but I may be wrong.


I only have a part-time job and I'm playing like 25%. But I love getting back on my taxes ( you know, when you've paid too much, and you get it back + interests) :D

[open mind]

americans prefer to spend thier tax dollars on instruments of destruction not rehabilitation, education, or healthcare.

[absolution]

nobody here pays 60% in taxes. 45% is the maximum. The poster obviously failed to learn math during his UK stay.

you should learn more about things work in the big city before you make such statements. you need to take a look at the all in tax..

[saysmydoctor]

americans prefer to spend thier tax dollars on instruments of destruction not rehabilitation, education, or healthcare.
:appl: