Bruce Sutter in the Hall

[getupkid53]

It's a travesty Rice and Dawson didn't make it. God knows we are going to put the steroid users in. I'm really ashamed to be a baseball fan sometimes. It's all about numbers now.... So what if a guy hits 70 homers in a year. The guys who do it (outside of bonds) spend the rest of their time striking out. hopefully these two get bumped up in the next few years.

[FondestMemory]

yeah, i can't believe sutter's the only one going in this year. that's nuts.

it's gonna be hard for some of the older ones to get in next year with as strong a class of first-time eligibles.

gwynn and ripken jr. are both next year. as is mcguire. just sucks, cause all the talk is gonna be about big mark and the whole 'should he or shouldn't he' argument will over shadow the other two.

baseball sucks a lot sometimes.

[bigmike]

there's way too many deserving people not in the hall.
the one that strikes me the most: Bert Blyleven.

[LeftWideOpen]

rice got screwed.

[Caleb Cattivera]

jim rice should definately be in. dude was a BEAST in the 70s. sadly i dont think bert will ever make it in...

congrats to sutter though.

[LeftWideOpen]

jim rice should definately be in. dude was a BEAST in the 70s. sadly i dont think bert will ever make it in...

congrats to sutter though.

i think most of the media has it out for him because he was a prick.

[Caleb Cattivera]

your probably right. oh well. haha.

[mikeford]

jim rice does not fuckin deserve to make the hall of fame.

[LeftWideOpen]

jim rice does not fuckin deserve to make the hall of fame.

rice's power numbers are pretty awesome, especially when you consider he did it before steroids were the cool thing to do.

[Caleb Cattivera]

jim rice does not fuckin deserve to make the hall of fame.

coming from a boston fan that's suprising. 78 mvp, 2 silver slugger awards. a career .300 hitter. 8 finishes in the top 10 in slugging% two times he was tops. top ten in runs six times. top 10 in hits 8 times, with one season leading year. top 10 in total bases 10 times. 9 times in top ten in rbi.

i could go on and on...IMO, i think he deserves to be in there. modern baseball has kinda screwed up HOF statistics.

[mikeford]

okay heres where you all get pwned

Jim Rice was a great hitter for 4 years... 1977, 1978, 1979, 1983 (86 was very good)... Jim Rice may have been a "feared" hitter, but he was not a great one... He had the highest double plays grounded into pct of all time which used up a ton of outs that his batting average never measured... He had a .352 on base ptc which is 20 points lower than Dwight Evans...hell its 3 points higher than mark bellhorns lifetime obp... Rice's number were SERIOUSLY inflated by Fenway Park... People forget this but Fenway Park used to be Coors field lite until they built the 600 club for Clemens and Hurst to cut down on the wind flown home runs... Jim Rice was barely a "good" hitter on the road... If your gonna penalize Larry Walker for hitting a hundreds point lower your gonna have to penalize Rice...Rice was an awful baserunner (His baserunning mistake in game 6 of the World Series damn might have cost us a run and the World Series) and he was an average at best left fielder... And lets not forget that left field is the second least important position in baseball next to first base

Jim Rice is prob the most overated player of the last 30 years.. A left fielder who only had 10 good years and 3 great ones with the bat and contributed nothing else is not a hall of famer... Plus Rice was a fucking miserable prick who was despised by writers and teamates alike....

Rice
Home 208 HR, .320/.374/.546
Road 174 HR, .277/.330/.459

Evans
Home 203 HR, .283/.379/.505
Away 182 HR, .261/.361/.437

Dewey's On base percentage was .30 points higher on the road than Rice's... thats the equivalent of about 50-60 points in batting average

[LeftWideOpen]

okay heres where you all get pwned

Jim Rice was a great hitter for 4 years... 1977, 1978, 1979, 1983 (86 was very good)... Jim Rice may have been a "feared" hitter, but he was not a great one... He had the highest double plays grounded into pct of all time which used up a ton of outs that his batting average never measured... He had a .352 on base ptc which is 20 points lower than Dwight Evans...hell its 3 points higher than mark bellhorns lifetime obp... Rice's number were SERIOUSLY inflated by Fenway Park... People forget this but Fenway Park used to be Coors field lite until they built the 600 club for Clemens and Hurst to cut down on the wind flown home runs... Jim Rice was barely a "good" hitter on the road... If your gonna penalize Larry Walker for hitting a hundreds point lower your gonna have to penalize Rice...Rice was an awful baserunner (His baserunning mistake in game 6 of the World Series damn might have cost us a run and the World Series) and he was an average at best left fielder... And lets not forget that left field is the second least important position in baseball next to first base

Jim Rice is prob the most overated player of the last 30 years.. A left fielder who only had 10 good years and 3 great ones with the bat and contributed nothing else is not a hall of famer... Plus Rice was a fucking miserable prick who was despised by writers and teamates alike....
Rice
Home 208 HR, .320/.374/.546
Road 174 HR, .277/.330/.459

Evans
Home 203 HR, .283/.379/.505
Away 182 HR, .261/.361/.437

Dewey's On base percentage was .30 points higher on the road than Rice's... thats the equivalent of about 50-60 points in batting average

you can spin stats any way you want to make your case look good.

"For a period of 12 years -- 1975-86 -- Rice led all American League players in 12 different offensive categories, including home runs (350), RBI (1,276), total bases (3,670), slugging percentage (.520), runs (1,098 and hits (2,145).

In that span, his typical season looked something like this: 29 homers, 106 RBI, 91 runs scored and an average above .300.

But what really elevates the case for Rice is context. He led every player in his league in virtually every significant offensive category for a dozen years. And when you add in all of the National League players from the same era, Rice still leads in five categories and finishes second in three others.

First or second in eight different categories for a dozen years? That sounds plenty dominant enough for me.

Finally, there's historical perspective. Among all major leaguers, only nine players have compiled as high a career batting average (.298 and as many homers. They are: Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Mel Ott, Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays and Stan Musial.

They're all Hall of Famers. Rice should be, too. "
- Sean McAdam

Take your agenda somewhere else. Whether or not he was a good interview or buddy to his teammates should have no bearing on his Hall of Fame status.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

hell its 3 points higher than mark bellhorns lifetime obp...
This quote stuck out in my head....don’t bring Bellhorn into this. His OBP was quite good considering his life time BA is .236. And last time I checked, OBP is not high on the list of stats which get you into the hall. It's BA, HR, H, RBI, and other stats that the Hall looks at more than OBP.

[bigmike]

So, shouldn't the baseball hall of fame revamp who votes or something, because how does only 1 guy get into the hall of fame this year? Does that seem ridiculous to anyone else? especially looking at the other players that didn't get in this year.

[FondestMemory]

rice should be in.

goose gossage should be in.

blylevin has a strong case.

and there's a good argument for andre dawson.

but let's go only with sutter. makes perfect sense to me.

[bigmike]

rice should be in.

goose gossage should be in.

blylevin has a strong case.

and there's a good argument for andre dawson.

but let's go only with sutter. makes perfect sense to me.

right. that seems to be the way the writers see it, unfortunately.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

So, shouldn't the baseball hall of fame revamp who votes or something, because how does only 1 guy get into the hall of fame this year? Does that seem ridiculous to anyone else? especially looking at the other players that didn't get in this year.
You have to get a certain # of votes (you probably know this) to get into the Hall. I think the way it works is fine, but they should probably switch up the people who vote. Some of the voters are clueless, and some hold grudges (i have no information to back the latter). As for only one person getting inducted for a year, thats fine. Sometimes the ballot is weak, strong, and very strong. Next year we will see at least 3.

[bigmike]

You have to get a certain # of votes (you probably know this) to get into the Hall. I think the way it works is fine, but they should probably switch up the people who vote. Some of the voters are clueless, and some hold grudges (i have no information to back the latter). As for only one person getting inducted for a year, thats fine. Sometimes the ballot is weak, strong, and very strong. Next year we will see at least 3.

yeah, i meant the changing the people who vote. as of now i think you need 75% to get in.

But, there's no excuse for sutter being the only one getting in.
And next year it's basically already decided. the only thing is whether or not McGwire would be getting in on his first try.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Well, some people, like Blylevin, moved up a lot on this Ballot. He may of not gotten in this time, but his chances in the coming years look a lot better.

Unfortunately, guys like Gossage will probably miss out.

[mikeford]

if mark mcguire gets in then fuck the whole place.

[bigmike]

Well, some people, like Blylevin, moved up a lot on this Ballot. He may of not gotten in this time, but his chances in the coming years look a lot better.

Unfortunately, guys like Gossage will probably miss out.

it can be argued that gossage was better than sutter.

and Blyleven will still need to sway something like 40% of the voters, which just won't happen.

[mondeoman]

there's way too many deserving people not in the hall.
the one that strikes me the most: Bert Blyleven.
Eh idk about that

[Doug]

don't forget, jim rice was leading in all those categories in a very weak time for hitters. the late 70's and early 80's were not exactly the 40's, 50's or 60's in terms of hitters. nor was it the 90's and 00's.

jim rice was a very good baseball player. was he great? was he a hall of famer? i say no.

look at the top 10 vote getters for mvp in rice's 78 season:

1 Jim Rice (http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/riceji01.shtml)
2 Ron Guidry (http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/guidrro01.shtml)
3 Larry Hisle (http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hislela01.shtml)
4 Amos Otis (http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/otisam01.shtml)
5 Rusty Staub (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/staubru01.shtml)
6 Graig Nettles (http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/nettlgr01.shtml)
7 Don Baylor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/baylodo01.shtml)
8 Eddie Murray (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/murraed02.shtml)
9 Carlton Fisk (http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fiskca01.shtml)
10 Darrell Porter (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/porteda02.shtml) i mean, look at those names. granted 1978 was an INCREDIBLE season for rice. but when saying he was in the top 10 in so many categories, of course he was. he was competing about larry hisle.

[bigmike]

Eh idk about that

if you mean you don't know about whether or not he's a hall of famer:

287 wins, 5th all time in strikeouts, 9th all time with 60 shutouts, 13th all time in innings pitched, 9th all time in games started, and has a better strikeout to walk ratio than: bruce sutter, don sutton, tom seaver, walter johnson, dizzy dean, lee smith, and gaylord perry to name a few.

[Doug]

if you mean you don't know about whether or not he's a hall of famer:

287 wins, 5th all time in strikeouts, 9th all time with 60 shutouts, 13th all time in innings pitched, 9th all time in games started, and has a better strikeout to walk ratio than: bruce sutter, don sutton, tom seaver, walter johnson, dizzy dean, lee smith, and gaylord perry to name a few.

and only a two time all star

hall of fame pitcher slots should be saved for the pedro, clemens, big unit types, not the mike mussina types

[bigmike]

and only a two time all star

hall of fame pitcher slots should be saved for the pedro, clemens, big unit types, not the mike mussina types

unless mike mussina types are top ten in important, pitching related hall of fame categories.

[Doug]

all most of those stats are telling me is "he pitched for a long time and didn't get 300 wins"

[mikeford]

all most of those stats are telling me is "he pitched for a long time and didn't get 300 wins"

bingo...

much like jim rice... 3 great seasons... decent rest of the career.

[CROMagnon]

if mark mcguire gets in then fuck the whole place.
i gotta agree, on that and on jim rice

[mikeford]

if anyone whos been basically convicted of steroid use gets in im going to be ripshit.

[CROMagnon]

if anyone whos been basically convicted of steroid use gets in im going to be ripshit.
if pete rose, who has long paid his due and been repentant for what he did, never gets in, then neither should anyone who has ever been mentioned in association with steroids, which affects personal stats (those used for measuring hof stats) much more than betting ever did

[mikeford]

ehhhh pete rose never really apologized for betting on baseball and he lied about it for like 25 years.

[bigmike]

all most of those stats are telling me is "he pitched for a long time and didn't get 300 wins"

wins would have been easier to come by if he didn't play on teams with .500 or worse records, 12 times.

[mondeoman]

if you mean you don't know about whether or not he's a hall of famer:

287 wins, 5th all time in strikeouts, 9th all time with 60 shutouts, 13th all time in innings pitched, 9th all time in games started, and has a better strikeout to walk ratio than: bruce sutter, don sutton, tom seaver, walter johnson, dizzy dean, lee smith, and gaylord perry to name a few.
I was unaware he had such great numbers. The only number I knew on him was that he gave up more HRs than any other picture, I think.

[bigmike]

I was unaware he had such great numbers. The only number I knew on him was that he gave up more HRs than any other picture, I think.

haha. he gave up the 7th most.
Surprisingly, Fergie Jenkins, Don Sutton, Frank Tanana, and Warren Spahn all gave up more than him.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

wins would have been easier to come by if he didn't play on teams with .500 or worse records, 12 times.
bingo. (i like the way you think)

300 wins is hard to come by, don't get me wrong, but getting as close as he did with bad teams is a big accomplishment. Also, contradicting what I just said, wins should not be a way to judge a pitcher. Clemens had a great year last year, but because his offense could not score any runs, his record suffered.

Also, bigmike, Blylevin's votes increased 18% this year. I'm not sure who is on the list in '08 or beyond, but if it as weak as this years, he has a shot.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

and only a two time all star

hall of fame pitcher slots should be saved for the pedro, clemens, big unit types, not the mike mussina types
So, we should leave Greg Maddux out of hall?

[bigmike]

bingo. (i like the way you think)

300 wins is hard to come by, don't get me wrong, but getting as close as he did with bad teams is a big accomplishment. Also, contradicting what I just said, wins should not be a way to judge a pitcher. Clemens had a great year last year, but because his offense could not score any runs, his record suffered.

Also, bigmike, Blylevin's votes increased 18% this year. I'm not sure who is on the list in '08 or beyond, but if it as weak as this years, he has a shot.

thanks.

If you wanted to be picky, looking at the numbers, you could've made pretty solid all star cases for him in: 1974 over John Hiller, 1984 over Jack Morris, and 1989 over Dave Stewart.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

And just to defend Sutter for a moment, the guy invented the split finger. Just think how many pitchers (Curt Schilling relies on it) use the split finger as a strike out pitch. He has to get some credit for every strike out that came by way of the split finger.

[CROMagnon]

ehhhh pete rose never really apologized for betting on baseball and he lied about it for like 25 years.
yeah, but his betting was as a coach/manager, which doesn't change what he did as a player

[CROMagnon]

And just to defend Sutter for a moment, the guy invented the split finger. Just think how many pitchers (Curt Schilling relies on it) use the split finger as a strike out pitch. He has to get some credit for every strike out that came by way of the split finger.
ha, like hof-credit royalties

[NetNerdsRevenge]

It's not a deal breaker, but he did revolutionize a pitch.

[Doug]

So, we should leave Greg Maddux out of hall?

yes, obviously in my list of 4 players, i mentioned every single current pitcher who deserves to be in the hall and who doesn't.

i think it's safe to say maddux is on a pedro/johnson/clemens level more than a mike mussina level.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Im not sure what level you are talking about, but Pedro, Johnson, and Clemens are more power pitchers where Maddux locates more.

[CROMagnon]

Im not sure what level you are talking about, but Pedro, Johnson, and Clemens are more power pitchers where Maddux locates more.
i'm assuming he means domination of hitters

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Mussina can dominate just as well. He has out pitched Pedro in a few games when they have gone head to head.

[Doug]

Im not sure what level you are talking about, but Pedro, Johnson, and Clemens are more power pitchers where Maddux locates more.


did you really think i meant that only power pitchers should be in the hall of fame? i mean, really?

you can't see that pitchers like pedro martinez, randy johnson, roger clemens, greg maddux are on a different level than the mike mussina, kevin brown, david wells, david cone, hell, tim wakefield, orel hershiser, bert blylevin types.

guys who are perrenial all stars/cy young winners/the BEST pitchers in the league, are much different than the types of guys who were very good for a lot of years, but were never on that hall of fame level.

[Doug]

Mussina can dominate just as well. He has out pitched Pedro in a few games when they have gone head to head.

oh god, it's happening. someone is arguing that mike mussina is a hall of famer.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

Well, with some of things you post, I dont know. I wouldn't put Blylevin in the second category. Blylevin showed the same kind of flash (dad telling me this, I never saw him pitch) as Nolan Ryan.

EDIT: to clarify, I wouldn't put Ryan in the first tier either....maybe some middle ground, but definitely HOF worthy.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

oh god, it's happening. someone is arguing that mike mussina is a hall of famer.
When did I say that? Think before you put words in my mouth.

Mussina is a good pitcher who can show signs of dominance. That, however, does not translate into HOF.

[getupkid53]

Greg Maddux is one of the smartest (if not the smartest) pitcher to ever play the game. If average pitchers put the time and effort into their game the way maddux does, they could be great too. I think that is something the league has lost over the years is the thinking aspect of the game. Remember when Ricky Henderson used to steal bases and it was important? Or when pick-off plays counted? or when the catchers calls mattered? Baseball is just getting muscled up now. Harder throwing pitchers, home run hitters, people like Cecil fielder don't mean anything nowadays.

[mikeford]

catchers calls definitely still matter, thats why jason varitek gets paid 40 million dollars over 4 years.
hes not THAT GREAT at defense, or throwing out runners, or hell.. hitting in general. but one thing he can do is call a game.

something his rat faced counterpart in new york has never, and will never be able to do.

[bigmike]

catchers calls definitely still matter, thats why jason varitek gets paid 40 million dollars over 4 years.
hes not THAT GREAT at defense, or throwing out runners, or hell.. hitting in general. but one thing he can do is call a game.

something his rat faced counterpart in new york has never, and will never be able to do.

i think varitek is becoming more of an exception. I think catchers calling games is being faded out with some organizations and teams.

[mikeford]

i think varitek is becoming more of an exception. I think catchers calling games is being faded out with some organizations and teams.

while that may be TRUE, this dude said it didnt matter anymore.

[bigmike]

while that may be TRUE, this dude said it didnt matter anymore.

I know.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

catchers calls definitely still matter, thats why jason varitek gets paid 40 million dollars over 4 years.
hes not THAT GREAT at defense, or throwing out runners, or hell.. hitting in general. but one thing he can do is call a game.

something his rat faced counterpart in new york has never, and will never be able to do.
He is also getting paid 40 million because he has been said to be great in the club house. I find it hard to believe his pitch calling skills are so spectacular they're worth 40 mil....although, I have seen some awesome calls. One that sticks out in my mind was when (I forget the team and batter) he called for 4 sliders back to back from Timlin. His fast ball was off and the guy couldn't touch the slider.

One of the people I don't mind overpaying. And he hits well for a catcher.

[mikeford]

He is also getting paid 40 million because he has been said to be great in the club house. I find it hard to believe his pitch calling skills are so spectacular they're worth 40 mil....although, I have seen some awesome calls. One that sticks out in my mind was when (I forget the team and batter) he called for 4 sliders back to back from Timlin. His fast ball was off and the guy couldn't touch the slider.

One of the people I don't mind overpaying. And he hits well for a catcher.
yeah i didnt mean to imply thats the sole reason

frankly i dont give a fuck if tek is overpaid, best catcher in baseball makes whatever the fuck he wants.