Why Do A lot of People Say They Don't Want A Utopia?

[TaraZatara]

Maybe a lot of people say they don't want a utopia, because they think it will cause more suffering because more people will then have babies and so therefore more will suffer. If it causes more of the worst forms of suffering, then I don't want a utopia either. If it doesn't cause more of the worst forms of suffering then I want a utopia. Please comment and share your ideas.

[saysmydoctor]

Read 1984.

[Smash Adams]

A perfect Utopian society where everyone is equal and happy would be nice, so would a magical talking unicorn who grants you unlimited wishes
both have about an equal probability of actually happening

[zion the lion]

Because people arent capable of maintaining a utopian society. We're greedy, selfish, violent animals who dont get how to get along without fighting. Any time anyone tries to make a utopian society with people completely equal, there's always at least one person who capitalizes on the whole idea and the vunerability of it's citizens and perverts the idea under the radar until it's the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be. And then there are the lazy people who wouldnt want to pull their own weight. It's impossible.

[Love As Arson]

Because the current ideology represents utopia as something bad and our current condition as something which is eternal and universal.

[TaraZatara]

Because people arent capable of maintaining a utopian society. We're greedy, selfish, violent animals who dont get how to get along without fighting. Any time anyone tries to make a utopian society with people completely equal, there's always at least one person who capitalizes on the whole idea and the vunerability of it's citizens and perverts the idea under the radar until it's the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be. And then there are the lazy people who wouldnt want to pull their own weight. It's impossible.

I believe that's just simply what the people who control the system will have you believe. Really, people are good-hearted. They just do what they do because they believe that under a good God only evil people will have bad things happen to them.

[zion the lion]

I believe that's just simply what the people who control the system will have you believe. Really, people are good-hearted. They just do what they do because they believe that under a good God only evil people will have bad things happen to them.

No people are selfish, mean, and horrible people by nature, they have to be trained to be nice and giving and loving, I've experienced first hand how horrible people can be, and how much they really dont care about anyone but themselves. But I dont really get your last sentence.

[Smash Adams]

They just do what they do because they believe that under a good God only evil people will have bad things happen to them.
Ever heard of the Book of Job?

[zion the lion]

Ever heard of the Book of Job?

That dude got screwed over...it's pretty sad.

[Smash Adams]

That dude got screwed over...it's pretty sad.
And all for God to make a point, I'm sure there was another way to prove it without ruining his life

[saysmydoctor]

http://www.diseaseproof.com/1984.jpg

[ReadyForAction]

Brave New World is a good book

[mymusicismylife]

And all for God to make a point, I'm sure there was another way to prove it without ruining his life


Didn't he get blessed even more than he had been before afterward?

[x togepi x]

Utopias, generally speaking, involve totalizing worldviews that inherently separate groups of people who don't belong. Said separation generally leads to oppression of said groups.

of course, most people are conditioned like zion the lion to believe in outmoded notions like the "selfishness" of people. we're supposed to buy into the "realistic" notions of the current status quo, which is just as utopian as anything else. The capitalist paradise posited by those who promote our system is just as utopian as Marxist paradises, the question is what kind of society should we ought to strive towards while acknowledging that others may not necessarily fit within the bounds of said society.

[zion the lion]

Utopias, generally speaking, involve totalizing worldviews that inherently separate groups of people who don't belong. Said separation generally leads to oppression of said groups.

of course, most people are conditioned like zion the lion to believe in outmoded notions like the "selfishness" of people. we're supposed to buy into the "realistic" notions of the current status quo, which is just as utopian as anything else. The capitalist paradise posited by those who promote our system is just as utopian as Marxist paradises, the question is what kind of society should we ought to strive towards while acknowledging that others may not necessarily fit within the bounds of said society.

It's only because I've grown up with completely selfish rotten people who raised me not to expect anymore than what I was given.

[mymusicismylife]

No people are selfish, mean, and horrible people by nature, they have to be trained to be nice and giving and loving, I've experienced first hand how horrible people can be, and how much they really dont care about anyone but themselves. But I dont really get your last sentence.

My personal opinion is that there are good people and bad people, although most fall somewhere in between. It's like those grading scales, 1-5, 1 being excellent, 5 being horrible.

I also think there are more good people than bad, but many good people do bad things. That doesn't make them entirely bad.

Also, the bad people stick out more than the good people. Just like how 5 loud people will stick out more than 10 quiet people, a few bad people will stick out more than many good people.

That doesn't really do the topic justice, but books could be (and have been) written on the topic. This is my simplified version.

[Smash Adams]

Didn't he get blessed even more than he had been before afterward?
I don't claim to be an expert or anything but he doesn't get back his family correct? I would say putting a price on family is probably wrong

[zion the lion]

My personal opinion is that there are good people and bad people, although most fall somewhere in between. It's like those grading scales, 1-5, 1 being excellent, 5 being horrible.

I also think there are more good people than bad, but many good people do bad things. That doesn't make them entirely bad.

Also, the bad people stick out more than the good people. Just like how 5 loud people will stick out more than 10 quiet people, a few bad people will stick out more than many good people.

That doesn't really do the topic justice, but books could be (and have been) written on the topic. This is my simplified version.

You have to train someone to be good and caring and selfless. Think about it, you have to teach babies how to share, how to love, and how to be nice, theyre naturally selfish. Some people just learn it better than others. But I dont think there's any such thing as good or bad, everyone's equally as horrible. I'm a wee bit misanthropic.

[bung]

I absolutely love how when the concept of a utopia comes up people say to read Brave New World as a justification for why they are bad.

Go read Island.

[macabre]

You have to train someone to be good and caring and selfless. Think about it, you have to teach babies how to share, how to love, and how to be nice, theyre naturally selfish. Some people just learn it better than others. But I dont think there's any such thing as good or bad, everyone's equally as horrible. I'm a wee bit misanthropic.

If you don't believe that there is any such thing as good or bad, how do you believe that humans nature is, in and of itself, bad? Isn't that a normative statement?

[mymusicismylife]

You have to train someone to be good and caring and selfless. Think about it, you have to teach babies how to share, how to love, and how to be nice, theyre naturally selfish. Some people just learn it better than others. But I dont think there's any such thing as good or bad, everyone's equally as horrible. I'm a wee bit misanthropic.

Just a wee bit. But I see where you're coming from, and understand what you're saying.

I suppose it's also a factor of environment. I've been able to surround myself with "good" people for the most part (as in selfless, caring, etc.), and so that's helped foster a positive outlook on humanity.

I also think it comes down to more than just being naturally selfish and being trained to be selfless. It's like psychology's BioPsychoSocial model. There are so many factors that make a person who they are: genes, inborn traits, environment, and such. I just find it hard to put such a broad label on all people when people are all so very different.

It's one of those things that could be argued endlessly. It all comes down to one's own beliefs.

[zion the lion]

If you don't believe that there is any such thing as good or bad, how do you believe that humans nature is, in and of itself, bad? Isn't that a normative statement?

I just dont think there are different levels on the scale, we're all at the same horrible, bad, evil spot.

Just a wee bit. But I see where you're coming from, and understand what you're saying.

I suppose it's also a factor of environment. I've been able to surround myself with "good" people for the most part (as in selfless, caring, etc.), and so that's helped foster a positive outlook on humanity.

I also think it comes down to more than just being naturally selfish and being trained to be selfless. It's like psychology's BioPsychoSocial model. There are so many factors that make a person who they are: genes, inborn traits, environment, and such. I just find it hard to put such a broad label on all people when people are all so very different.

It's one of those things that could be argued endlessly. It all comes down to one's own beliefs.

agree to disagree is cool with me.

[mymusicismylife]

I don't claim to be an expert or anything but he doesn't get back his family correct? I would say putting a price on family is probably wrong

Not putting a price on it, just an honest question.

[bung]

I don't claim to be an expert or anything but he doesn't get back his family correct? I would say putting a price on family is probably wrong

I believe he gets a new family. But his original one remains dead because of God's little bet.

[macabre]

I just dont think there are different levels on the scale, we're all at the same horrible, bad, evil spot.

So a person who goes to Africa to help the fight against hunger is just as evil as a person who murders thousands of people? No distinction, they're just both categorically evil?

[zion the lion]

So a person who goes to Africa to help the fight against hunger is just as evil as a person who murders thousands of people? No distinction, they're just both categorically evil?

Almost everything anyone does is for their own selfish gain, thus evil.

[Machu505]

I absolutely love how when the concept of a utopia comes up people say to read Brave New World as a justification for why they are bad.

Go read Island.

Pwnd.

[bung]

Almost everything anyone does is for their own selfish gain, thus evil.

A person doing something selfish, for their own gain, makes them evil? Isn't that a bit fucking insane?

[zion the lion]

A person doing something selfish, for their own gain, makes them evil? Isn't that a bit fucking insane?

Um...no?

[bung]

Um...no?

So when I go to buy food to satisfy my own hunger for my own gain, I'm evil?
And when I work a job to get money to buy things for my own gain, I'm evil?
And when I have sex to satisfy my own sexual urge for my own gain, I'm evil?

[saysmydoctor]

I think utopias--paradises--are impossible simply because it would imply perfection of the individual, which is impossible. A society is only the addition of each individual within it.

[macabre]

Almost everything anyone does is for their own selfish gain, thus evil.

I just find it hard to grasp that there is no gradation of evil, that a serial killer is just as evil as a humanitarian. Surely if you believe in evil, it would seem like one of them would be less evil than the other, given the frequency of evil to non-evil acts. I mean you look around the world and there is plenty of altruism going on, plenty of people who are willing to risk their lives for others.

[zion the lion]

So when I go to buy food to satisfy my own hunger for my own gain, I'm evil?
And when I work a job to get money to buy things for my own gain, I'm evil?
And when I have sex to satisfy my own sexual urge for my own gain, I'm evil?

Sex is evil

I just find it hard to grasp that there is no gradation of evil, that a serial killer is just as evil as a humanitarian. Surely if you believe in evil, it would seem like one of them would be less evil than the other, given the frequency of evil to non-evil acts. I mean you look around the world and there is plenty of altruism going on, plenty of people who are willing to risk their lives for others.

For their own personal gain. Youre never going to change my mind about this just like I'll never change yours.

[bung]

I think utopias--paradises--are impossible simply because it would imply perfection of the individual, which is impossible. A society is only the addition of each individual within it.

Not necessarily. That's actually the fallacy of composition, in which a person argues that what may be attributed to a part is then an attribute of the whole.

ie; each molecule of this piece of chalk is invisible to the naked eye, therefore the piece of chalk in my hand is invisible to the naked eye.

[x togepi x]

It's only because I've grown up with completely selfish rotten people who raised me not to expect anymore than what I was given.

that sucks. i mean, i can totally understand why won would make the argument that people are inherently evil based on things like genocide or rape but i'm just not entirely sure it's a fair judgment of the human race.

[Machu505]

Sex is evil
O hai Paul.

[zion the lion]

that sucks. i mean, i can totally understand why won would make the argument that people are inherently evil based on things like genocide or rape but i'm just not entirely sure it's a fair judgment of the human race.

I guess

O hai Paul.

It's how the devil gets inside of you and makes his little dream killers...

[bung]

For their own personal gain. Youre never going to change my mind about this just like I'll never change yours.

Yeah, you don't know a thing about altruism. I did a 20-page research study on altruism last semester and I can say, within the shadow of a doubt, that many, many altruistic acts are done with no intention of personal gain.

[zion the lion]

Yeah, you don't know a thing about altruism. I did a 20-page research study on altruism last semester and I can say, within the shadow of a doubt, that many, many altruistic acts are done with no intention of personal gain.

ok then

[macabre]

For their own personal gain. Youre never going to change my mind about this just like I'll never change yours.

What? You can't engage in a healthy debate? I'd honestly change my mind on the subject if you had a strong enough argument.

[bung]

ok then

Right, I'm glad you recognize that your view is completely ridiculous.

[zion the lion]

What? You can't engage in a health debate? I'd honestly change my mind on the subject if you had a strong enough argument.

I cant do that without offering up horrible secrets of my childhood that I would rather forget about completely, which is why I said that.

[x togepi x]

it's not entirely ridiculous,it's just perspective based. that's all any of these views on human nature is, hence my rejection of the concept.

[Duexy]

A person doing something selfish, for their own gain, makes them evil? Isn't that a bit fucking insane?


this

[saysmydoctor]

Not necessarily. That's actually the fallacy of composition, in which a person argues that what may be attributed to a part is then an attribute of the whole.

ie; each molecule of this piece of chalk is invisible to the naked eye, therefore the piece of chalk in my hand is invisible to the naked eye.
Ugh, please. You are right technically, but still--it's impossible for a race riddled with imperfections to create a perfect society. There will always be kinks and that is distinctly not utopian. I'm stickin' with the fallacious argument simply because it is true in this case. There is no way to satisfy the every need and want of every person, someone will always be dissatisfied--another distinctly non-utopian concept.

[zion the lion]

Right, I'm glad you recognize that your view is completely ridiculous.

Glad you know how to agree to disagree and move on without belittling my opinion

[Duexy]

You pretty much asked for it when you responded with "ok then" during a discussion.

[saysmydoctor]

Glad you know how to agree to disagree and move on without belittling my opinion
You do realize you are whiniest piece of shit on these forums, right?

You always do this agree to disagree simply because you can't compose an intelligent argument and throw the "well it's my opinion" flag in the air. We get it.

[macabre]

Yeah, you don't know a thing about altruism. I did a 20-page research study on altruism last semester and I can say, within the shadow of a doubt, that many, many altruistic acts are done with no intention of personal gain.

I'd love to read it, I'm actually working on a social psychology research study as we speak.

[zion the lion]

You do realize you are whiniest piece of shit on these forums, right?

You always do this agree to disagree simply because you can't compose an intelligent argument and throw the "well it's my opinion" flag in the air. We get it.

Youre right. I'll come back when I'm done and form better opinions

[bung]

Ugh, please. You are right technically, but still--it's impossible for a race riddled with imperfections to create a perfect society. There will always be kinks and that is distinctly not utopian. I'm stickin' with the fallacious argument simply because it is true in this case. There is no way to satisfy the every need and want of every person, someone will always be dissatisfied--another distinctly non-utopian concept.

Haha, I actually agree you with in that that human race will never experience a utopia. I'm just saying your reasoning is flawed.

The problem, as I see it, is not that people are imperfect so a perfect society is impossible, but that no one can really agree on what constitutes a perfect society.

[saysmydoctor]

Youre right. I'll come back when I'm done and form better opinions
That's what I said.
Haha, I actually agree you with in that that human race will never experience a utopia. I'm just saying your reasoning is flawed.

The problem, as I see it, is not that people are imperfect so a perfect society is impossible, but that no one can really agree on what constitutes a perfect society.
Well the inability to agree as a whole would seem like an imperfection in the human.

[bung]

I'd love to read it, I'm actually working on a social psychology research study as we speak.

The research I did is relevant to the discussion, but that study itself looked at the relationship between altruistic behavior and emotional well-being.

That being said, the results were basically meaningless because I wasn't able to (nor were we expected to) get a large enough sample size due to time constraints. Haha, it'd probably be better just to look at the tons of other studies on the topic because I'm only a mere undergrad.

[bung]

Well the inability to agree as a whole would seem like an imperfection in the human.

Maybe.. but it also could be that there's more than type of society that could be considered a utopia, so thinking that everyone must agree on what that is doesn't seem to me to be a valid prerequisite.

[macabre]

The research I did is relevant to the discussion, but that study itself looked at the relationship between altruistic behavior and emotional well-being.

That being said, the results were basically meaningless because I wasn't able to (nor were we expected to) get a large enough sample size due to time constraints. Haha, it'd probably be better just to look at the tons of other studies on the topic because I'm only a mere undergrad.

That's unfortunate. I'm an undergrad as well, hopefully I'll find enough participants.

[Adeniz19]

It's how the devil gets inside of you and makes his little dream killers...w...t...f

[x togepi x]

Well the inability to agree as a whole would seem like an imperfection in the human.

This needs to be explained because I'm pretty sure difference=/= imperfection. The implications of such view would entail homophobia and sexism.

[Machu505]

w...t...f

I was assuming she wasn't being serious. :shrug:

[more heart]

You're 33 and asking this?

[saysmydoctor]

This needs to be explained because I'm pretty sure difference=/= imperfection. The implications of such view would entail homophobia and sexism.
Well is that stuff not prevalent? There are still racists out there.

My point was people's inability to agree or compromise at times is an imperfection of the human condition. Some people can't agree/accept that people are different. Some can.

[Adeniz19]

I was assuming she wasn't being serious. :shrug:oh, i think she's being serious alright haha

as far as the main topic of this thread: as long humans feel the basic emotions of jealousy and greed (or any of the 7 deadly sins), there will never be a perfect utopia.

[Machu505]

oh, i think she's being serious alright haha
Wouldn't put it past her.

[open mind]

2 big hurdles to building a utopia.

1)changing things for the better is bound to upset the rich and powerful, so expect them to use every tool they have to destroy you.

2)people can be pretty decent under normal conditions but when faced with large threats they get fucking crazy.

[Cheesus]

Googled this persons name, came up with many similar topics of discussion all over the web. seems legitimately weird

[macabre]

Googled this persons name, came up with many similar topics of discussion all over the web. seems legitimately weird

That's what you call a troll

[screamoutmyname]

utopia = dystopia

[macabre]

2)people can be pretty decent under normal conditions but when faced with large threats they get fucking crazy.

Good point. Assuming that one day we have a perfect society, how would that perfect society guard itself against drastic changes (e.g. natural disasters, disease) while at the same time maintaining that social cohesion that makes it a perfect society in the first place?

[x togepi x]

Well is that stuff not prevalent? There are still racists out there.

My point was people's inability to agree or compromise at times is an imperfection of the human condition. Some people can't agree/accept that people are different. Some can.

i think you misunderstood, i was saying that the line of thinking "difference=imperfection" is what is behind things like homophobia. I mean yeah we could "compromise" but some things are uncompromisable. like i'm not going to compromise with a homophobe about gay rights.

[saysmydoctor]

i think you misunderstood, i was saying that the line of thinking "difference=imperfection" is what is behind things like homophobia. I mean yeah we could "compromise" but some things are uncompromisable. like i'm not going to compromise with a homophobe about gay rights.
That's not what I meant by it, but it can definitely be construed that way.

But this is what I mean. People don't agree on what 'normal' is. So a paradise would never happen.

[zion the lion]

Wouldn't put it past her.

oh, i think she's being serious alright haha

What the hell?

Why?

[saysmydoctor]

Remember when you said evolution wasn't real/you didn't believe in it? I know it's wrong to generalize based off one thing, but I did. Sorry.

[zion the lion]

Remember when you said evolution wasn't real/you didn't believe in it? I know it's wrong to generalize based off one thing, but I did. Sorry.

I meant macro, I had a shitty way of saying that I have a hard time believing in macroevolution. I know microevolution is real, I even made an example of saying that I can see it in my family where my aunts have blue eyes and red hair and we all have different shades of skin because of genetic mutations. And thats the best way I know how to say it.

edit: and it had absolutely nothing to do with any religious belief like I'm pretty sure you assumed. I'm really close to just being an atheist at this point.

[Adeniz19]

What the hell?

Why?well, were you being serious or not?

it seemed like you were having a serious conversation so it wouldn't make sense for you to all of a sudden be joking around.

[zion the lion]

well, were you being serious or not?

it seemed like you were having a serious conversation so it wouldn't make sense for you to all of a sudden be joking around.

No I wasnt. I may not be interested in sex in the least bit, or even understand why it's such a big deal, but I do know it's perfectly natural and without it, no living organism would exist.

[anamericangod]

I believe that's just simply what the people who control the system will have you believe. Really, people are good-hearted. They just do what they do because they believe that under a good God only evil people will have bad things happen to them.

Read Heart Of Darkness and then get back to me.

[Machu505]

No I wasnt. I may not be interested in sex in the least bit, or even understand why it's such a big deal, but I do know it's perfectly natural and without it, no living organism would exist.

Oh ok. Just making sure.

[macabre]

automated internet troll?

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:1VL3ufsz8oIJ:newswre cker.com/news-bloopers/video/7h3_y-eUHXI/Nine-Inch-Nails-Closer.html+tarazatara&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

TaraZatara Says:

Apr 9, 2009 - Blacks who are evil should be given to sexy good-hearted white women. These women should be allowed to do anything they want against them. Then the women should make the evil blacks out of their feces. This should be shown on TV for everyone to see. Who agrees with this? Do you think people would complain? I hate evil people don't you? Please comment.

[zion the lion]

Oh ok. Just making sure.

I dont think I even know anybody who thinks like that.

automated internet troll?

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:1VL3ufsz8oIJ:newswre cker.com/news-bloopers/video/7h3_y-eUHXI/Nine-Inch-Nails-Closer.html+tarazatara&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

TaraZatara Says:

Apr 9, 2009 - Blacks who are evil should be given to sexy good-hearted white women. These women should be allowed to do anything they want against them. Then the women should make the evil blacks out of their feces. This should be shown on TV for everyone to see. Who agrees with this? Do you think people would complain? I hate evil people don't you? Please comment.

Yeah I saw a bunch of weird crazy racists post like that on google from her.

[Adeniz19]

No I wasnt. I may not be interested in sex in the least bit, or even understand why it's such a big deal, but I do know it's perfectly natural and without it, no living organism would exist.So sex isn't evil?

[zion the lion]

So sex isn't evil?

On the surface, no. But there are those people who give it way too much credit and look at it as something more than it is, which makes them use it for bad things. Those who look at sex for something more than it is like control or humiliation will rape someone or tell people not to have it or else theyre dirty animals, those who look to it for love and acceptance become promiscious, things like that.

So sex itself isnt evil, because it's nothing to me, it's just sex, but it becomes something bad when people manipulate themselves and others into thinking that it's something more and use it against people.

[Duexy]

automated internet troll?

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:1VL3ufsz8oIJ:newswre cker.com/news-bloopers/video/7h3_y-eUHXI/Nine-Inch-Nails-Closer.html+tarazatara&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

TaraZatara Says:

Apr 9, 2009 - Blacks who are evil should be given to sexy good-hearted white women. These women should be allowed to do anything they want against them. Then the women should make the evil blacks out of their feces. This should be shown on TV for everyone to see. Who agrees with this? Do you think people would complain? I hate evil people don't you? Please comment.




HAHAHAHHAHAHAH

[Adeniz19]

On the surface, no. But there are those people who give it way too much credit and look at it as something more than it is, which makes them use it for bad things. Those who look at sex for something more than it is like control or humiliation will rape someone or tell people not to have it or else theyre dirty animals, those who look to it for love and acceptance become promiscious, things like that.

So sex itself isnt evil, because it's nothing to me, it's just sex, but it becomes something bad when people manipulate themselves and others into thinking that it's something more and use it against people.
What you are saying now is completely different from what you said earlier on in this thread.

Earlier on, you said "sex is evil". period. and that eveything everyone does is for their own personal gain. No one ever said anything about rape or degrading anyone. People have given points showing that just because people do things for their own personal gain doesn't make them evil, but you just seemed to ignore it

[zion the lion]

What you are saying now is completely different from what you said earlier on in this thread.

Earlier on, you said "sex is evil". period. and that eveything everyone does is for their own personal gain. No one ever said anything about rape or degrading anyone. People have given points showing that just because people do things for their own personal gain doesn't make them evil, but you just seemed to ignore it

Because I'm full of shit, but I honestly wasnt being serious at all with the sex is evil thing. I just threw that in there because usually in a serious conversation (at least with my mom or someone close) a joke or two is thrown in for one reason or another, and when that guy said "oh hai paul" I assumed he was talking about Paul from the bible who told people to reject sex and seek the lord to fulfill their "needs".

With the use of the word evil before, I was just using a word (I went with the extreme and stuck with it because I'm like that sometimes) on my scale of "good and evil" I was trying to say there wasnt a difference and everyone is the same deep down inside, when I havent "cleared my mind" I've got a shitty way of saying things.

[Adeniz19]

your sex is evil comment was before the "oh hai paul" joke, but good luck trying to keep back tracking from what you said in this thread.

:diggrave:

[zion the lion]

your sex is evil comment was before the "oh hai paul" joke, but good luck trying to keep back tracking from what you said in this thread.

:diggrave:

I didnt even realize I made two sex is evil comments. Whatever. I tried explaining where I was coming from hours ago in after a hangover and between getting high and taking a nap, without checking what I said, I was bound to somethings mixed up.

[TEAMRAMROD]

I didnt even realize I made two sex is evil comments. Whatever. I tried explaining where I was coming from hours ago in after a hangover and between getting high and taking a nap, without checking what I said, I was bound to somethings mixed up.
I've noticed whenever you've been called out on something, you usually say that you were high/on medication/half asleep etc when you posted, and therefore exempt from scrutiny.

[Cheesus]

I've noticed whenever you've been called out on something, you usually say that you were high/on medication/half asleep etc when you posted, and therefore exempt from scrutiny.

dominated

[zion the lion]

I've noticed whenever you've been called out on something, you usually say that you were high/on medication/half asleep etc when you posted, and therefore exempt from scrutiny.

Thats because I like my downers as much as I like oxygen. But I didnt say that I was high or anything this time, I said it had been hours between me saying two things about sex being evil and me explaining why I said one of the sex things and within those hours I had done a lot of things. I also took my final on economics and moved on to conversions and statistics within that time, I also fed my bunny/had to build a barrier between him and my books, read a book, filled myself up on what I missed on young and the restless read my mythology book for a mythology test and organized myself. Getting high and taking a nap were just two of the things I did in between making whatever post at 5 or 6 and probably 10 something. And no I fully expect scrutiny what I say with or without the pills because I know people who drive their children around drunk and still fully accept the responsiblity for what they did while intoxicated.

[Duexy]

what the fuck is going on here

[TEAMRAMROD]

I don't even know. I've got to engage in mental gymnastics to comprehend the last few posts.

[zion the lion]

Am I really that hard to understand?

[TEAMRAMROD]

I think it would behoove you to reread your posts a few times before submitting them to make sure you've presented your idea clearly, as that seems to be the main problem.

[caveBEAR]

That's because I like my downers as much as I like oxygen, but I didnt say that I was high or anything this time. I said it had been hours between me saying two things, sex being evil, and me explaining why I said one of the sex things, and within those hours I had done a lot of things. I also took my final on economics and moved onto conversions and statistics within that time. I also fed my bunny, had to build a barrier between him and my books, read a book, filled myself up on what I missed on Young and the Restless, read my mythology book for a mythology test, and organized myself. Getting high and taking a nap were just two of the things I did in between making whatever post at 5 or 6 and probably 10 something. And no I fully expect scrutiny what I say with or without the pills because I know people who drive their children around drunk and still fully accept the responsiblity for what they did while intoxicated. (Not even going to try to decipher that one)

The grammar police/they know the difference between 'peace' and 'piece''
Here they go/spring into action/fixin' misspellin's/and makin' contractions!
DUN DUN DUN DUH DUN DAH!

[Duexy]

:lol:

[TaraZatara]

Sex is evil



For their own personal gain. Youre never going to change my mind about this just like I'll never change yours.

Somebody has put out there the untruth that people are inheritantly evil. It's not true. It was a conspiracy that was put out there. This conspiracy makes people decide to whip their kids (who they thought were evil) and be evil to other people whom they assume is evil. But really people, you yourself is not one of the few that are good. Some people act evil to people because they think that all those who are harmed are being punished by God for being evil in this lifetime or in another lifetime. They also think it's possible that their is another one of them running around being evil and so that's why they were punished by God with problems.

[.invisible ink.]

you seriously need to get some help. mental illness is treatable. good luck.

http://hox.net23.net/video/l8vI1R4L4ac/chris-brown-run-it.html
Did whites punish ... ( 12 hours ago by TaraZatara)Did whites punish blacks because they thought blacks were evil? Did whites make blacks out of their feces and that's why blacks are a nasty brown color? Please tell me, because I really want to know? Whites please don't do that because the blacks could be just mentally ill.
http://flashgamesite.com/live2/s13comments_ZqEmw2Y2tVg.html
TaraZatara (http://www.youtube.com/TaraZatara) (May 5th, 2009 @ 6:17 am)
This is a good song. The singers in Live are so handsome. If they are nice people who care about innocent animals, plants and people and any other innocent creatures, I would date them. I think Chris Cornell is hot too. I would also date him if what I said above holds true. I also believe Jeff Goldblum the actor is handsome. It's cool that he's Jewish. Albert Einstein is also cool because he was a humanitarian and was also very smart.

http://newswrecker.com/news-bloopers/video/7h3_y-eUHXI/Nine-Inch-Nails-Closer.html
TaraZatara Says:
Apr 9, 2009 -Blacks who are evil should be given to sexy good-hearted white women. These women should be allowed to do anything they want against them. Then the women should make the evil blacks out of their feces. This should be shown on TV for everyone to see. Who agrees with this? Do you think people would complain? I hate evil people don't you? Please comment.

[Duexy]

i got stopped on the street by a random white woman on the street that said she loved my complexion. i guess i got made out of some good shit.

[The Personist]

This has turned into the most bizarre fucking thread...

But totally worth the read.


I'm with everyone who says we can't have a utopia, but I will say that Brave New World is a dreadful book.

[Adeniz19]

I didnt even realize I made two sex is evil comments. Whatever. I tried explaining where I was coming from hours ago in after a hangover and between getting high and taking a nap, without checking what I said, I was bound to somethings mixed up.Well if that is the excuse you want to use, go right ahead, but don't expect anyone in the forum to take what you say seriously anymore.

[Love As Arson]

There is no way to satisfy the every need and want of every person, someone will always be dissatisfied--another distinctly non-utopian concept.
I don't think a rational society would have arguments about whether health care, shelter, meaningful work, workplace democracy, and so on, are rights. We can have disagreements and debate without sacrificing core principles.

[saysmydoctor]

I don't think a rational society would have arguments about whether health care, shelter, meaningful work, workplace democracy, and so on, are rights. We can have disagreements and debate without sacrificing core principles.
But people don't agree with with whether healthcare is a human right.

[zion the lion]

The grammar police/they know the difference between 'peace' and 'piece''
Here they go/spring into action/fixin' misspellin's/and makin' contractions!
DUN DUN DUN DUH DUN DAH!

Dammit! Oh and you fixed it.

Somebody has put out there the untruth that people are inheritantly evil. It's not true. It was a conspiracy that was put out there. This conspiracy makes people decide to whip their kids (who they thought were evil) and be evil to other people whom they assume is evil. But really people, you yourself is not one of the few that are good. Some people act evil to people because they think that all those who are harmed are being punished by God for being evil in this lifetime or in another lifetime. They also think it's possible that their is another one of them running around being evil and so that's why they were punished by God with problems.

I'm sorry I really dont get what you're saying.

Well if that is the excuse you want to use, go right ahead, but don't expect anyone in the forum to take what you say seriously anymore.

I really dont get your problem with me. I tried to explain where I was coming from in the cleanest way possible, yet it's still not good enough.

[x togepi x]

But people don't agree with with whether healthcare is a human right.

People still don't agree that black people are equal to white people or gay people are equal to straight people. i guess we shouldn't strive for ending racism/homophobia either.

[saysmydoctor]

People still don't agree that black people are equal to white people or gay people are equal to straight people. i guess we shouldn't strive for ending racism/homophobia either.
Straw man. I'm not saying that, my argument has always been the lack of uniformity in opinion would make a utopia impossible. Hence why I said earlier functionality and fairness should be reached over perfection. Which I don't think is unreasonable.

[x togepi x]

Straw man. I'm not saying that, my argument has always been the lack of uniformity in opinion would make a utopia impossible. Hence why I said earlier functionality and fairness should be reached over perfection. Which I don't think is unreasonable.

This isn't a straw man at all. Your claim is lack of uniformity in opinion makes utopias impossible. My claim is society strives for bettering itself even though there's no uniform opinion anyway. Anti-racist action is an example of a case where this is true.

"Functionality" is a terrible standard to strive for because it leads to self perpetuating systems. You could functionally make a dictatorship work, that's not exactly what we want. I know that your response to this will be to point out that you're also saying we need fairness, but that concept is problematic; it contradicts your earlier complaints about the lack of uniformity of opinion since people aren't going to agree on what is fair.

[saysmydoctor]

This isn't a straw man at all. Your claim is lack of uniformity in opinion makes utopias impossible. My claim is society strives for bettering itself even though there's no uniform opinion anyway. Anti-racist action is an example of a case where this is true.

"Functionality" is a terrible standard to strive for because it leads to self perpetuating systems. You could functionally make a dictatorship work, that's not exactly what we want. I know that your response to this will be to point out that you're also saying we need fairness, but that concept is problematic; it contradicts your earlier complaints about the lack of uniformity of opinion since people aren't going to agree on what is fair.
I see your point here. I just wanted to emphasize I was never promoting homophobia, sexism, racism, or rankism.

[x togepi x]

I see your point here. I just wanted to emphasize I was never promoting homophobia, sexism, racism, or rankism.

I didn't mean to claim that you were promoting them, just that the implications of that thinking "differences=imperfection" or that we can't strive for certain things because we can't agree entails those things.

[bung]

Brave New World is a dreadful book.

How so?

[The Personist]

How so?

Poorly written. It doesn't stack up to other books of the same kind.

[x togepi x]

BNW > 1984 by far. it's so much more realistic and more critical, as one could make the argument using the book that the society of BNW isn't that bad, where as orwell hits you over the head with his fascism=evil rhetoric.

[The Personist]

BNW > 1984 by far. it's so much more realistic and more critical, as one could make the argument using the book that the society of BNW isn't that bad, where as orwell hits you over the head with his fascism=evil rhetoric.

You're absolutely right. I just think it's not as well-written in a stylistic sense. I didn't find it as compelling as 1984, which I read at around the same time.

[x togepi x]

I'm not sure about that either. The scene where The Savage is talking to Mond about how he wants his life back and Mond is like "oh you want a world with pain and suffering and disease" is really powerful. I mean you read that dialogue and you're like "fuck."

[zion the lion]

Ok does brave new world have the same type of ending as 1984?

[doppelganger]

i enjoyed reading brave new world

[bung]

Poorly written. It doesn't stack up to other books of the same kind.

Poorly written? You've got to be kidding me.

[bung]

Ok does brave new world have the same type of ending as 1984?

Do you really want to know?

Read it!

[zion the lion]

Do you really want to know?

Read it!

I like knowing the direction of the book so I'm not surprised. And I'm reading it now.

[TaraZatara]

The truth is that people for the most part are good-hearted who care about good people. People care about good animals too. A perfect society is one that does not cause the harm of any particular living thing whether it be a plant, microorganism or anything. Living is suffering as we morn the suffering of good creatures and their death. I love you all. God bless you.

[bung]

I like knowing the direction of the book so I'm not surprised. And I'm reading it now.

Good, I'm glad you're reading it! :-) It was the start of Huxley becoming quite possibly my favorite writer.

[saysmydoctor]

1984 is definitely the superior novel.

[x togepi x]

no it's not. it's not even the best book orwell wrote.

[Adeniz19]

Dammit! Oh and you fixed it.



I'm sorry I really dont get what you're saying.



I really dont get your problem with me. I tried to explain where I was coming from in the cleanest way possible, yet it's still not good enough.I have ZERO problem with you, and I could really care less where you come from. All I'm saying is, if you are going to try and have a discussion with people, and keep on making up excuses as to why you can't further defend your case, then no one is going to listen to you anymore. I don't care how drunk you are, how many pills you've taken, or what happened in your childhood. A person who doesn't make sense is a person who doesn't make sense.

[zion the lion]

I have ZERO problem with you, and I could really care less where you come from. All I'm saying is, if you are going to try and have a discussion with people, and keep on making up excuses as to why you can't further defend your case, then no one is going to listen to you anymore. I don't care how drunk you are, how many pills you've taken, or what happened in your childhood. A person who doesn't make sense is a person who doesn't make sense.

If what happened in my childhood shapes who I am and why I feel the way I feel then I'm not exactly sure why that's an excuse.

[The Personist]

I'm not sure about that either. The scene where The Savage is talking to Mond about how he wants his life back and Mond is like "oh you want a world with pain and suffering and disease" is really powerful. I mean you read that dialogue and you're like "fuck."

I can see how that might be the case. It just didn't do it for me like 1984 did.

I would never argue 1984 is the best of the bunch; I'd take Animal Farm over that any day.

[x togepi x]

I can see how that might be the case. It just didn't do it for me like 1984 did.

I would never argue 1984 is the best of the bunch; I'd take Animal Farm over that any day.

animal farm wasn't even that good.

[The Personist]

animal farm wasn't even that good.

I preferred it to 1984. It was far more sardonic. If I had to pick one, though, my favorite Orwell overall would be Burmese Days.

[BryterJonah]

I'd prefer that one episode of Twilight Zone where the guy has a major drag of a wife and all he wants is to read books,
only once his dream comes true and there is nobody but books to keep him company, his glasses break.

I'd wear contacts.

[saysmydoctor]

Well, I'm pretty partial to 1984, simply because the teacher who showed me the book in my junior year pretty much opened my eyes to my own interest in politics and that book pretty much completely converted me to the ardent liberal I've become.

Animal Farm is good too. I prefer Orwell's essays.

[jessicalynn-xx]

Read 1984.

I was just about to say this. Or Childhood's End. Or you could just think about it... Any aspect of a potential utopian society will eventually lead to something far worse than the problems it tried to solve.