Hero Worship in Music

[thespearkid]

This is something I've been thinking/posting about lately.

I've often seem Paramore put down on this site because of how the band is very much based on Haley's image. However, I've seen this same trend in some of the more revered AP.net bands. From newer idols like (obviously) Max Bemis and Jesse Lacey to some of the older icons like Rivers Cuomo, certain people in the scene are often idolized more than their music. Does this have a detrimental affect on those artists music (after all, why write good songs when your fans will love whatever you produce?) or is it simply giving credit where credit is due (it's not easy to be the driving force behind a successful band)? Would you like your favorite band as much if the driving force behind it had a completely different image (if Aaron Weiss didn't look homeless, would you enjoy the music just as much?). Further more, do you ever find yourself excusing an artists lack of quality simply based on past albums that artist has produced (I've often found myself saying that Max Bemis and Rivers Cuomo get "free passes" for having written ...Is a Real Boy and Pinkerton respectively).

Discuss.

[SickOfStars]

Well, I feel like the Paramore thing and this are kinda apples and oranges.

People rag on Paramore because they are (supposedly) popular because of Hayley's physical image.

People here hero worship Bemis and Lacey because of the songs/lyrics they write (whether or not I agree with the worship-worthy status is not relevant haha). I think people give those songwriters "free passes" because they expect quality work from the artist, but realize that they can make missteps. It's not really excusing the bad material so much as choosing to look beyond it in hopes that they will get more of what they love from the artists they've come to expect it from.

For example, I'm a gigantic Alkaline Trio fan, and wasn't a huge fan of some of the tracks on Crimson. Since I've followed the band for years, it wasn't hard for me to say that there were just some missteps on there and that they, in all likelihood, would give me some more songs I like on the next album. They did, with a few more missteps. Again, free pass. Now they're writing a fast punk record and I adore every new song I see on youtube.

I do think that a few folks on the website do take this theory to the extreme, and perhaps accept some material that I can't see as passable from the mentioned people, but at its heart it's just the same as twhat I've been yapping about.

Edit: I also didn't see the Aaron Weiss line.

I really didn't think Aaron Weiss looking homeless was a big part of mewithoutYou's appeal, anyway. I feel that most people that like mwY couldn't really care less.

[11:11]

On that last point, I think a lot of people make excuses for artists because they know they're capable of better. I've seen it happen with Conor Oberst & the Mystic Valley Band- pretty bad album, but since most people (not excluding myself) have Oberst on a pedestal, they try to look at only the positives of the album.

[bard]

yeah, aaron weiss' appearance has nothing to do with why i love mwY

[thespearkid]

Well, I feel like the Paramore thing and this are kinda apples and oranges.

People rag on Paramore because they are (supposedly) popular because of Hayley's physical image.

People here hero worship Bemis and Lacey because of the songs/lyrics they write (whether or not I agree with the worship-worthy status is not relevant haha). I think people give those songwriters "free passes" because they expect quality work from the artist, but realize that they can make missteps. It's not really excusing the bad material so much as choosing to look beyond it in hopes that they will get more of what they love from the artists they've come to expect it from.

For example, I'm a gigantic Alkaline Trio fan, and wasn't a huge fan of some of the tracks on Crimson. Since I've followed the band for years, it wasn't hard for me to say that there were just some missteps on there and that they, in all likelihood, would give me some more songs I like on the next album. They did, with a few more missteps. Again, free pass. Now they're writing a fast punk record and I adore every new song I see on youtube.

I do think that a few folks on the website do take this theory to the extreme, and perhaps accept some material that I can't see as passable from the mentioned people, but at its heart it's just the same as twhat I've been yapping about.

Edit: I also didn't see the Aaron Weiss line.

I really didn't think Aaron Weiss looking homeless was a big part of mewithoutYou's appeal, anyway. I feel that most people that like mwY couldn't really care less.
This, to me, begs the question of when does the hero worship stop? For instance, Rivers Cuomo has written some amazing music in the past but the vast majority of the band's newer material is lacking that same quality. Rivers has been getting a free pass for years now. At what point would it be OK to say "enough is enough" or will the hero worship behind Weezer always be strong enough to keep the band floating by, thanks to the Blue Album and Pinkerton?

I like the Alkaline Trio example because it brings up an interesting point; is there such a thing as a "fair weather" fan when it comes to music? Is there any shame in no longer supporting a band if the quality is no longer at a level on par with the band's older work? Should fans hold out for better music, as you did with Alkaline Trio (and as I continue to do with Weezer)?

[thespearkid]

On that last point, I think a lot of people make excuses for artists because they know they're capable of better. I've seen it happen with Conor Oberst & the Mystic Valley Band- pretty bad album, but since most people (not excluding myself) have Oberst on a pedestal, they try to look at only the positives of the album.
I've noticed this as well. I was late getting into Bright Eyes so I started with their newer stuff (which I didn't enjoy much) and worked my way backwards (Fever and Mirrors is probably one of my favorite albums right now). Also, I've noticed a lot of people taking the bad qualities from new Say Anything songs and saying things like "Only Bemis can make this song work." With instances like that, it seems to me that the person is becoming bigger than his/her art. It's the same concept as buying a car with ten miles to the gallon and saying "Only GM can make this car work." (which a good deal of Americans did, but that's beside the point).

[thespearkid]

yeah, aaron weiss' appearance has nothing to do with why i love mwY
If the same lyrics were coming out of the kid from Never Shout Never (same delivery and instrumentation as usual, just from a different person) would you like it just as much?

[evvandflow]

I guess Adam Lazarra doesn't get this treatment. Not seeign a lot of people giving him the free pass after New Again's reception.

[bard]

If the same lyrics were coming out of the kid from Never Shout Never (same delivery and instrumentation as usual, just from a different person) would you like it just as much?
of course. appearance doesn't matter. there are plenty of bands i like that have lead singers, etc... that look like douche bags.

[Burn That Shit]

They're just musicians.

[micahistheballs]

Bob Dylan deserves it.

[oddwithoutend]

Having a hero has nothing to do with "giving credit". People have heroes because it gives them someone to look up to; a role model. I may not like everyone's hero, but I won't fault them for which artist they choose to worship. Good for them.

[musikjunky311]

I guess Adam Lazarra doesn't get this treatment. Not seeign a lot of people giving him the free pass after New Again's reception.

If you shut the hell up and don't bad mouth your fans for not enjoying the new album others will defend you, but if you start shouting on about shit then people just think you are a prick.

[bowl of oranges]

David Bowie <3

[oddwithoutend]

David Bowie <3

Why is Bowie your hero?

[Fuckmaxbemis]

Even though it might seem like minimal input into this topic, I will state that certain phenomena like people thriving on image rather than talent is something that's happened for a long time and will continue to happen.

[bowl of oranges]

Why is Bowie your hero?He's probably my favorite musician of all time. Every single record he put out (up until the mid 80's) was pure brilliance, and not one sounded the same.

[Colorblind!]

This is something I've been thinking/posting about lately.

I've often seem Paramore put down on this site because of how the band is very much based on Haley's image. However, I've seen this same trend in some of the more revered AP.net bands. From newer idols like (obviously) Max Bemis and Jesse Lacey to some of the older icons like Rivers Cuomo, certain people in the scene are often idolized more than their music. Does this have a detrimental affect on those artists music (after all, why write good songs when your fans will love whatever you produce?) or is it simply giving credit where credit is due (it's not easy to be the driving force behind a successful band)? Would you like your favorite band as much if the driving force behind it had a completely different image (if Aaron Weiss didn't look homeless, would you enjoy the music just as much?). Further more, do you ever find yourself excusing an artists lack of quality simply based on past albums that artist has produced (I've often found myself saying that Max Bemis and Rivers Cuomo get "free passes" for having written ...Is a Real Boy and Pinkerton respectively).

Discuss.

This whole complex pisses me off alot. The image has nothing to do with the music they make, and shit is still shit even if that shit has a pretty face and/or a neon shirt. Most true musicians would say they don't want to be put on a pedastool because of the music they make, so if you genuinely enjoy the music, sure! If you only like it because Max Bemis' involvement, then that's a little shady.

Just to put in my two cents on the Aaron Weiss thing, it's not so much about the way he dresses but his values that are reflected through his life and music. The whole thing of looking poor is probably because he is poor, and has rejected the Western consumeristic nature and wanting to live simply while being economically and environmentally concious. Not as much of an image as it is a genuine lifestyle for the dude that I'm sure people can hear in his band.

[oddwithoutend]

He's probably my favorite musician of all time. Every single record he put out (up until the mid 80's) was pure brilliance, and not one sounded the same.

That's a good reason.

[bowl of oranges]

That's a good reason.I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

[IWasaCamera]

Does this have a detrimental affect on those artists music (after all, why write good songs when your fans will love whatever you produce?) or is it simply giving credit where credit is due (it's not easy to be the driving force behind a successful band)?
It does insofar as artists who might want a legion of devoted fans into the tunes for the right reason may be disappointed to see the reality of the situation. It comes with the territory though, especially when the band's frontman is attractive or purportedly different. Hero worship is in no way giving credit where it is due for it shrouds objectivity (free pass and whatnot).
Would you like your favorite band as much if the driving force behind it had a completely different image (if Aaron Weiss didn't look homeless, would you enjoy the music just as much?). It'd be ridiculous to base your opinion of a band on its image. Of course, teenage whores are ridiculous so take that as you will.
Further more, do you ever find yourself excusing an artists lack of quality simply based on past albums that artist has produced (I've often found myself saying that Max Bemis and Rivers Cuomo get "free passes" for having written ...Is a Real Boy and Pinkerton respectively). If anything, I'm far more critical of my favorites.

[oddwithoutend]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

haha I'm not. No worries, bud.

[thespearkid]

It does insofar as artists who might want a legion of devoted fans into the tunes for the right reason may be disappointed to see the reality of the situation. It comes with the territory though, especially when the band's frontman is attractive or purportedly different. Hero worship is in no way giving credit where it is due for it shrouds objectivity (free pass and whatnot).
It'd be ridiculous to base your opinion of a band on its image. Of course, teenage whores are ridiculous so take that as you will.
If anything, I'm far more critical of my favorites.
I feel like this is an attitude that is a, generally, the more appropriate of the two. What I wonder though is why some people will take this attitude towards some bands (Taking Back Sunday was used as an example) but not towards others (Say Anything). I've seen just as much acclaim for Tell All Your Friends as I have for ...Is a Real Boy, yet one band tends to get a free pass while the other doesn't. I'm not sure if you're a fan of either of these bands, so I'm not necessarily directing this toward you but to the entire thread.

By the way, thanks everyone to contributing to a decent music discussion, something the music forum hasn't seen in the past few weeks.

[IWasaCamera]

I feel like this is an attitude that is a, generally, the more appropriate of the two. What I wonder though is why some people will take this attitude towards some bands (Taking Back Sunday was used as an example) but not towards others (Say Anything). I've seen just as much acclaim for Tell All Your Friends as I have for ...Is a Real Boy, yet one band tends to get a free pass while the other doesn't. I'm not sure if you're a fan of either of these bands, so I'm not necessarily directing this toward you but to the entire thread.

By the way, thanks everyone to contributing to a decent music discussion, something the music forum hasn't seen in the past few weeks.
As many feathers as this may ruffle, the reason some acts are cut some slack and others aren't is quite simply that the masses are sheep. If an album is universally shit on by critics and early public reaction is disastrous, fan opinions will follow suit.

[musikjunky311]

As many feathers as this may ruffle, the reason some acts are cut some slack and others aren't is quite simply that the masses are sheep. If an album is universally shit on by critics and early public reaction is disastrous, fan opinions will follow suit.


It is very true one way or another, people will believe what they are told. I think it all comes down to what kind of sheep you are, maybe you're a pitchfork sheep, or a Ap.net sheep, or even worse an AP magazine sheep Ect. However where would the world be with the without the sheep, no one would get anything that they didn't deserve....We all know that is not how the world works.

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
-Hitler

[eliselovesmusic]

This is such a great thread! thanks spearkid....


All I have to say (for now) is that I am a huge fan of Pete Wentz - but only because of his lyrics and let's face it - he's an amazing marketer. I keep my admiration for Wentz completely seperate from Fall Out Boy's music though, because
1) he aint exactly a musical genius (I question the amount of work he puts into the music part of their albums)
2) yes, he is a jackass. But his often immature publicity stunts are exactly that: publicity stunts, which shouldn't affect the way you see FOB's music.

I think this is all relevant....

[fadedmemories]

This is such a great thread! thanks spearkid....


All I have to say (for now) is that I am a huge fan of Pete Wentz - but only because of his lyrics and let's face it - he's an amazing marketer. I keep my admiration for Wentz completely seperate from Fall Out Boy's music though, because
1) he aint exactly a musical genius (I question the amount of work he puts into the music part of their albums)
2) yes, he is a jackass. But his often immature publicity stunts are exactly that: publicity stunts, which shouldn't affect the way you see FOB's music.

I think this is all relevant....
Beat me to it.

[batmannj]

As many feathers as this may ruffle, the reason some acts are cut some slack and others aren't is quite simply that the masses are sheep. If an album is universally shit on by critics and early public reaction is disastrous, fan opinions will follow suit.
Totally agreed.

[bard]

i think it's always really surprising when fans, especially hardcore fans, turn on a band because of a new album. like some people have done with mewithoutYou - ...it's all crazy, or when the mars volta realeased amputechture/the bedlam in goliath.

i'm still in love with mwY, but when tmv released bedlam, i knew they were done. it's weird how a band/artist can be so high on my list of favorite bands/artists and then one release just makes me realize how crappy they are.

[SickOfStars]

This, to me, begs the question of when does the hero worship stop? For instance, Rivers Cuomo has written some amazing music in the past but the vast majority of the band's newer material is lacking that same quality. Rivers has been getting a free pass for years now. At what point would it be OK to say "enough is enough" or will the hero worship behind Weezer always be strong enough to keep the band floating by, thanks to the Blue Album and Pinkerton?

I like the Alkaline Trio example because it brings up an interesting point; is there such a thing as a "fair weather" fan when it comes to music? Is there any shame in no longer supporting a band if the quality is no longer at a level on par with the band's older work? Should fans hold out for better music, as you did with Alkaline Trio (and as I continue to do with Weezer)?

1st point: It becomes okay to say "enough is enough" when it's enough for the person. The whole thing with this argument, is while a lot of people may become annoyed with the "free pass" attitude, ultimately it's up to the person to decide when to stop holding out for better music. I think those of us who tend to do that at a sooner point than a lot of the die-hards on this site, and more extensively in the whole pop-punk/indie/whatever conflagoration, tend to see ourselves as more "reasonable," because if something sucks, we don't want to listen to it. However, it's really just two different attitudes, and however annoyed with it anyone becomes, one has to realize that the "refuse to let go" thing is just a differing way of going about fandom.
2nd point: No, there's not really a fairweather fan in the way you described it. It's not like fairweather friends. To abandon your friend when he's having a rough go of things is different than deciding not to listen to a shitty album. I wasn't really holding out too much for Alk3, there were a few tracks I didn't like on each record. This was just a slight step down from really enjoying every song, and it only happened over two albums. I can safely say if the trio put out a completely shit album that I didn't enjoy, I wouldn't listen to it.

It's your choice whether or not to do that with Weezer. I'm not holding out with baited breath, but if they made another album I enjoyed, then I'd listen to it.

As many feathers as this may ruffle, the reason some acts are cut some slack and others aren't is quite simply that the masses are sheep. If an album is universally shit on by critics and early public reaction is disastrous, fan opinions will follow suit.

This is a sad reality.

[oddwithoutend]

I think it all comes down to what kind of sheep you are, maybe you're a pitchfork sheep, or a Ap.net sheep, or even worse an AP magazine sheep Ect.

Ever thought about judging music for yourself? You don't have to be a sheep at all. This is ridiculous.

[SickOfStars]

Ever thought about judging music for yourself? You don't have to be a sheep at all. This is ridiculous.

you. I like you.

[SickOfStars]

i think it's always really surprising when fans, especially hardcore fans, turn on a band because of a new album. like some people have done with mewithoutYou - ...it's all crazy, or when the mars volta realeased amputechture/the bedlam in goliath.

i'm still in love with mwY, but when tmv released bedlam, i knew they were done. it's weird how a band/artist can be so high on my list of favorite bands/artists and then one release just makes me realize how crappy they are.

Dude, if you don't like the music, you don't like the music. It's not turning on an old friend. They're a band that makes music that you like. If you don't like the music they make, then you aren't required to love that album, just listen to the other ones.

It's not treason, it's putting the music you want to hear into your ears.




also: double post go me.

[IWasaCamera]

Ever thought about judging music for yourself? You don't have to be a sheep at all. This is ridiculous.
Ideally, none of us would be. Shame what should be is rarely what is.
Dude, if you don't like the music, you don't like the music. It's not turning on an old friend. They're a band that makes music that you like. If you don't like the music they make, then you aren't required to love that album, just listen to the other ones.

It's not treason, it's putting the music you want to hear into your ears.
Bingo.

[thespearkid]

It is very true one way or another, people will believe what they are told. I think it all comes down to what kind of sheep you are, maybe you're a pitchfork sheep, or a Ap.net sheep, or even worse an AP magazine sheep Ect. However where would the world be with the without the sheep, no one would get anything that they didn't deserve....We all know that is not how the world works.

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
-Hitler
I mean, are people here because they like the same type of music or do they like the same type of music because they're here? Same applies to all internet music communities. I mean, on Punk News, the general feeling on Max Bemis is that he's a huge d-bag, while the opposite is typically true here (there's a guy in another thread who, all of a sudden, hates black people just because I think Bemis is a dick haha). I believe it's easier than a lot of people think to let their music taste be dictated by community around them, either as automatically going against it or automatically agreeing with it.

[Losing Streak]

yeah, aaron weiss' appearance has nothing to do with why i love mwY

Word.

[musikjunky311]

Ever thought about judging music for yourself? You don't have to be a sheep at all. This is ridiculous.

I am just saying no one is outside the realm of influence.

[eliselovesmusic]

Beat me to it.


:neiner:

[fadedmemories]

:neiner:
:-)