Pitchfork Article On Christianity/Indie

[Rohan Kohli]

Pitchfork has posted an article (http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/columns/get-that-out-of-your-mouth/06-01-20.shtml) on the seperation of Christianity from the indie rock scene.

Submitted by: satanisanerd

[Stereo Therapy]

very good article. i agree completely.

[boldt_action]

I agree as well. Good read.

[IAPAI]

Pitchfork is just pissed that Sufjan got flack.

[boldt_action]

Pitchfork is just pissed that Sufjan got flack.
Sufjan > you

[fortyparachutes]

Yeah...it's strange...Sufjan isn't even all that religious.
Thrice in my opinion was one of the most religious albums I've heard all year, and they haven't gotten flack for that.
Lots of Tooth and Nail bands as well...Anberlin, Mae, mewithYou, etc.

[boldt_action]

Yeah...it's strange...Sufjan isn't even all that religious.
Thrice in my opinion was one of the most religious albums I've heard all year, and they haven't gotten flack for that.
Lots of Tooth and Nail bands as well...Anberlin, Mae, mewithYou, etc.
It's true. Someone just felt like writing an article about it.

and...thrice or any T&N band is not "indie".

[xcorruptpunkx]

his music is beautiful
and i love how he's not afriad of getting crap for singing about God/christianity in his songs

[robdobi]

Lots of Tooth and Nail bands as well...Anberlin, Mae, mewithYou, etc.

no waaaaaaaaay.

yeah, i was able to get over the religious imagery of page france mainly because it is so obvious and their record could be regarded as more of a piece art than anything else.

one band that gets mentioned on this site every once in awhile wasn't doing that well, so their management decided to package them as a "christian" band and then they got airplay on christian radio. congrats guys!

[FeynmanWannabe]

no waaaaaaaaay.

yeah, i was able to get over the religious imagery of page france mainly because it is so obvious and their record could be regarded as more of a piece art than anything else.

one band that gets mentioned on this site every once in awhile wasn't doing that well, so their management decided to package them as a "christian" band and then they got airplay on christian radio. congrats guys!


Mmmmmj Pgae France. I'm seeing them this weekend at my school.

[Sureshot182]

You can disagree with the church of your choice, but to dismiss religion altogether-- and to write off the best ideas, the best people and of course, the best indie rockers-- that come out of it, seems pointless. Why shoot the messenger just because you're scared he has a message?


great article.

[satanisanerd]

no waaaaaaaaay.

yeah, i was able to get over the religious imagery of page france mainly because it is so obvious and their record could be regarded as more of a piece art than anything else.

one band that gets mentioned on this site every once in awhile wasn't doing that well, so their management decided to package them as a "christian" band and then they got airplay on christian radio. congrats guys!

What band?

[minusthejosh]

good article, i agree completely.

[imirish06]

"Why shoot the messenger just because you're scared he has a message?" great quote

I love god rock, I love Sufjan, and I love Page France

[Scott Weber]

It's true. Someone just felt like writing an article about it.

and...thrice or any T&N band is not "indie".
I'd consider Discover America an indie band.

[ambiotic]

I do not, I think the line has always and will always be blured. But I am very concerned with the christian rock that is coming out talking about the imediate distruction of all non belivers. I wish the author would take time examing why it is unhip and uncool to be overaly religous. I think in our new climate world wide the intolreance shown by the christian community shuts people out. I listen to alot of christian rock even tho christianity scares me, but I also have a no-revalation rule. Perhaps undestanding that being told unless you belive what I do you will burn is not the way to sell records.

[lightcollapse]

ugh, i did not enjoy that article. and i fucking hate religion.

call me ignorant, but its my position and i can argue it.

EDIT: i guess it was interesting so i did enjoy it, but i certainly did not agree with it.

[Rohan Kohli]

I'm not Christian, but a TON of the music I listen to is Christian or is marketed for Christian audiences. It's kind of shitty when you go to a show and the band isn't all that open...I went to a Cool Hand Luke / Norma Jean show a while back and the singer of Cool Hand Luke was pretty much like "I don't care if this is PC or not, but we believe that if you're not Christian, you're not making it to heaven" etc etc. I'm agnostic/atheist...can't decide...so I don't really care, it's just kind of eh...can't you keep speeches like that to yourselves?

Yeah, I dunno what that post accomplished...whateva.

[Scott Weber]

ugh, i did not enjoy that article. and i fucking hate religion.

call me ignorant, but its my position and i can argue it.

EDIT: i guess it was interesting so i did enjoy it, but i certainly did not agree with it.
What is wrong with religion in your mind? Why do you care what other people believe if it brings them happiness and fufillment?

[lightcollapse]

What is wrong with religion in your mind? Why do you care what other people believe if it brings them happiness and fufillment?

because its just false hope. its believing something thats not real. its like an imaginary friend.

[AHMYBRAIN]

I think we all know that debating religion on an online music messageboard is a totally fruitless venture that will only end up making people hate each other.

And that was a good article, though Pitchfork referring to "hipsters" in a negative fashion made me giggle.

[Scott Weber]

because its just false hope. its believing something thats not real. its like an imaginary friend.
Yes, that is your personal opinion, and I disagree with it. I, among many, choose to believe in a higher being, that life has a purpose. God is an integral part of my life and has been for years. If it provides me and others with a sense of purpose and fufillment, then why do you hate religion? You can disagree with it, but why hate?

[lightcollapse]

Yes, that is your personal opinion, and I disagree with it. I, among many, choose to believe in a higher being, that life has a purpose. God is an integral part of my life and has been for years. If it provides me and others with a sense of purpose and fufillment, then why do you hate religion? You can disagree with it, but why hate?

okay, disagree is a better word.

i just couldn't understand believing in a god. there is no proof, its unrational, and i don't like the idea that i'm controlled by a supernatural being. so i disagree. sorry for the strong word choice/

[FASSWcore]

good article, but i still think pitchfork is a pretentious load of shit in many respects

[desh412]

I'd consider Discover America an indie band.

Agreed. Put T&N bands side by side vs. majors and you'll call them indie. Ask 100 people what "indie" means and you'll get 100 different answers.

Edit: Oh yeah, article is a good read. I guess I never really understood why penning a song about sex, cars or whatever else you're into is ok, but writing a song about your belief in God isn't.

[kirbs84]

good article

[Scott Weber]

okay, disagree is a better word.

i just couldn't understand believing in a god. there is no proof, its unrational, and i don't like the idea that i'm controlled by a supernatural being. so i disagree. sorry for the strong word choice/
I understand. However, there are many that hate religion for reasons I will never comprehend. Personally, I have expierenced so many things in my life that have given me substantial proof that there is a God. I understand why it is difficult for many to come to grips with a higher being. Spirituality is not something that exists in concrete, scientific fact. God doesn't control us though - He has granted us the power of choice, even you. Your choice to deny God and believe in something else is actually a gift from God.

[I <3 Coke]

What scene? The internet ruined scenes.

[WhatSayYou]

Great article. For anyone to completely rule out music that has religious themes is absolutely proposterous! It would take away from the artist's true feelings and expression.

[lightcollapse]

I understand. However, there are many that hate religion for reasons I will never comprehend. Personally, I have expierenced so many things in my life that have given me substantial proof that there is a God. I understand why it is difficult for many to come to grips with a higher being. Spirituality is not something that exists in concrete, scientific fact. God doesn't control us though - He has granted us the power of choice, even you. Your choice to deny God and believe in something else is actually a gift from God.

haha, i wouldn't put it that way, but okay.

see, the main problem i have with religion is the ridiculousness of the bible.

a belief in a god, one thing.

but these people who take the bible as fact....its just fucking ridiculous.

no, adam and eve didn't eat fruit from talking snakes. no, moses didn't speak to god through shrubbery.

i don't know, its just not for me.

[Scott Weber]

haha, i wouldn't put it that way, but okay.

see, the main problem i have with religion is the ridiculousness of the bible.

a belief in a god, one thing.

but these people who take the bible as fact....its just fucking ridiculous.

no, adam and eve didn't eat fruit from talking snakes. no, moses didn't speak to god through shrubbery.

i don't know, its just not for me.
Well, therein lies some of your discontent for Christians then. Not every Christian is like that. I don't take a significant portion of the Old Testament literally. I don't believe that the Earth was created in 7 literal days, I don't believe 2 of every animal was on Noah's Arc. There are many stories in the Bible that are used as examples, to tell a story to prove a point. I don't think The Bible is absolute gospel, there is plenty of outdated laws and regulations in it, as well as metaphorical tales. I don't find The Bible ridiculous in the least.

[lightcollapse]

Well, therein lies some of your discontent for Christians then. Not every Christian is like that. I don't take a significant portion of the Old Testament literally. I don't believe that the Earth was created in 7 literal days, I don't believe 2 of every animal was on Noah's Arc. There are many stories in the Bible that are used as examples, to tell a story to prove a point. I don't think The Bible is absolute gospel, there is plenty of outdated laws and regulations in it, as well as metaphorical tales. I don't find The Bible ridiculous in the least.

i understand the metaphorical aspect, trust me. i went to hebrew school for a long time and had a bar mitzvah last year.

but some people don't.

[lightcollapse]

(a very non religious hebrew school (reconstructionist judaism, which supports religion whether or not you believe in a god) that focused all on metaphors)

[WhatSayYou]

I understand. However, there are many that hate religion for reasons I will never comprehend. Personally, I have expierenced so many things in my life that have given me substantial proof that there is a God. I understand why it is difficult for many to come to grips with a higher being. Spirituality is not something that exists in concrete, scientific fact. God doesn't control us though - He has granted us the power of choice, even you. Your choice to deny God and believe in something else is actually a gift from God.

Word. The question people should ask is: based on the world we live in and things we see around us, is there the possibility that a God can exist? I think the possibility will always be there when you analyize how complex our world is. However it can never be proven by scientific means, that God exists.. There are many things we don't see with our naked eye that exist in our everyday life. In the end it is a matter of faith, which means knowing what you cannot see is true. But for someone to live their life without seeking answers is tragic. Rock on.

[Kelley Nicole]

and...any T&N band is not "indie".
why the fuck not? tooth and nail is an independent label, right? so technically any band on that label is indie.

ugh, sorry, but i'm tired of indie being a genre, even if it makes me look like a hypocrite based on comments i have made in the past.

[TyroneShoolaces]

i not only disagree with christianity, but hate it, along with all other religions.
more people have been killed in the name of religion than anything else.
how people believe that there is some imaginary dude up in the sky completely baffles me.
i hold chuchgoers in no higher regards than any cult followers.

i on the other hand, am slightly turned off by religion in music. but not entirely. if the music is good enough and not extremely preachy, then i can stand it (thrice is my favorite band, and i love sufjan, mewithoutyou, etc)

and yea....the Bible is pure horseshit. it is not the 'word of god'. it's a compilation of stories and old wivestales that have been compiled and sorted through and translated hundreds of times, and each time adding parts and taking others out. how people take it word for word blows my mind. some people are so ridiculously brainwashed.

[quitmyscene]

yikes. some people are ignorant.
and by ignorant, i mean let people believe what they want.

[lightcollapse]

Word. The question people should ask is: based on the world we live in and things we see around us, is there the possibility that a God can exist? I think the possibility will always be there when you analyize how complex our world is. However it can never be proven by scientific means, that God exists.. There are many things we don't see with our naked eye that exist in our everyday life. In the end it is a matter of faith, which means knowing what you cannot see is true. But for someone to live their life without seeking answers is tragic. Rock on.

seeking answers does not equal believing in god. unless you are mel gibson.

i'm also turned off by religion in music...its not i don't respect their religious aspects, but its the same as being a missionary in my opinion. writing about religion does not mean being a christian band BTW. i would never consider thrice to be a christian band.

having faith in the world does not mean having faith in god either. and i think i know that a god doesn't exist.

[lightcollapse]

yikes. some people are ignorant.
and by ignorant, i mean let people believe what they want.

its the internet, people have the right to argue and state opinions.

[Scott Weber]

i not only disagree with christianity, but hate it, along with all other religions.
more people have been killed in the name of religion than anything else.
how people believe that there is some imaginary dude up in the sky completely baffles me.
i hold chuchgoers in no higher regards than any cult followers.

i on the other hand, am slightly turned off by religion in music. but not entirely. if the music is good enough and not extremely preachy, then i can stand it (thrice is my favorite band, and i love sufjan, mewithoutyou, etc)

and yea....the Bible is pure horseshit. it is not the 'word of god'. it's a compilation of stories and old wivestales that have been compiled and sorted through and translated hundreds of times, and each time adding parts and taking others out. how people take it word for word blows my mind. some people are so ridiculously brainwashed.
mewithoutYou and Thrice are some of the most blatantly Christian and spiritual albums released in the past few years. mewithoutYou's music is almost 100% religious. You should take a comparative religion class, you might learn a bit more about the history of religion and some of it's fundamental beliefs. What you're saying there appears to be the same recycled argument I've heard hundreds of atheists say, simply because it's what they heard from their friends. They choose to talk it, but not do the research, nor care enough to do so. I am not judging you, that's just what it appears to be - if you are well-researched on it, then by all means correct me. May I ask - what do you consider the purpose of your life to be? Why are you here on Earth, and who do you turn to in times of need? What is it that gives you comfort and peace. (This differs for everyone)

[TyroneShoolaces]

mewithoutYou and Thrice are some of the most blatantly Christian and spiritual albums released in the past few years. mewithoutYou's music is almost 100% religious. You should take a comparative religion class, you might learn a bit more about the history of religion and some of it's fundamental beliefs. What you're saying there appears to be the same recycled argument I've heard hundreds of atheists say, simply because it's what they heard from their friends. They choose to talk it, but not do the research, nor care enough to do so. I am not judging you, that's just what it appears to be - if you are well-researched on it, then by all means correct me. May I ask - what do you consider the purpose of your life to be? Why are you here on Earth, and who do you turn to in times of need? What is it that gives you comfort and peace. (This differs for everyone)

i actually have taken a few classes on religion, i attend a Christian university. I don't really have any friends that are athiests, i am actually very knowledgable when it comes to christianity, as i was a christian until i was about 17. i dont consider there to be a set 'purpose' of life, it is what you make of it. in times of need i dont use religion as a crutch to turn to, i usually just deal with things on my own as rationally as possible. friends/family/music usually bring me comfort/peace.

[lightcollapse]

mewithoutYou and Thrice are some of the most blatantly Christian and spiritual albums released in the past few years. mewithoutYou's music is almost 100% religious. You should take a comparative religion class, you might learn a bit more about the history of religion and some of it's fundamental beliefs. What you're saying there appears to be the same recycled argument I've heard hundreds of atheists say, simply because it's what they heard from their friends. They choose to talk it, but not do the research, nor care enough to do so. I am not judging you, that's just what it appears to be - if you are well-researched on it, then by all means correct me. May I ask - what do you consider the purpose of your life to be? Why are you here on Earth, and who do you turn to in times of need? What is it that gives you comfort and peace. (This differs for everyone)

heh, i want to answer, because i like the question.

i'm at peace when i feel fulfilled.

i think the purpose of my life is to influence other people, or make a difference in the course of the world in any way possible, large or small.

in times of need, i get through them because everybody has ups and downs.

i never thought of thrice as christian at all. i don't know why, i just didn't interpret it like that.

underoath i thought of as ridiculously christian immediately. thats what eventually turned me off to them, after i worshipped their cd when it came out.

well, underoath's music got old too. but thats a different issue.

[Darren McLeod]

This is hilarious. I don't understand why people feel the need to shoot down people's beliefs. Does the creation of the world by a God not make sense to you? Fine! That's your idea! The idea that a bunch of matter collected together (and nobody knows where the FUCK this matter came from, by the way) and then exploded, and then another bunch of gas and dust happened to coalesce and condense, expand and create our solar system and in turn our planet, which just happens to be at the right position with the right atmosphere for sustainable human life (which again, came from chemical reactions) doesn't make sense to me. I do, however, understand why other people could believe in it, and I respect it. I am Catholic, but none of my friends are. 3/4s of them are atheist, with a Christian here and there, and some Sikhs and others thrown in as well.

We all have different ideas, and shooting down things and making generalizations doesn't help anyone. I can't stand it when a Christian tries to say that someone else is wrong, or that they're going to burn in Hell. In my mind, that's terrible.

There is no right idea or belief, there's only what's right to each individual person.

[Scott Weber]

heh, i want to answer, because i like the question.

i'm at peace when i feel fulfilled.

i think the purpose of my life is to influence other people, or make a difference in the course of the world in any way possible, large or small.

in times of need, i get through them because everybody has ups and downs.

i never thought of thrice as christian at all. i don't know why, i just didn't interpret it like that.

underoath i thought of as ridiculously christian immediately. thats what eventually turned me off to them, after i worshipped their cd when it came out.

well, underoath's music got old too. but thats a different issue.
Thrice's newest release was hands down the most spiritual album to come out last year. There's direct lines from scripture in it. What happens to you when your life is over? Nothing?

[Scott Weber]

i actually have taken a few classes on religion, i attend a Christian university. I don't really have any friends that are athiests, i am actually very knowledgable when it comes to christianity, as i was a christian until i was about 17. i dont consider there to be a set 'purpose' of life, it is what you make of it. in times of need i dont use religion as a crutch to turn to, i usually just deal with things on my own as rationally as possible. friends/family/music usually bring me comfort/peace.
That's fascinating to hear you speak like that. I've witnessed several people like yourself, ones that grew up with God and then viciously rejected him once 18 hit. What turned you away from religion so harshly? Your post about Christians was full of rage and passionate hatred.

[IAPAI]

What happens to you when your life is over? Nothing?

Don't make it sound like it's insane to think that, otherwise you're equally as condescending as he is.

[lightcollapse]

Thrice's newest release was hands down the most spiritual album to come out last year. There's direct lines from scripture in it. What happens to you when your life is over? Nothing?

i don't know what happens when my life is over and i'll find out when it is. i certainly don't think heaven exists. i don't believe in the afterlife.

fuck, nothing is my best guess actually.

but i can't stand the heaven/hell idea. but i understand how one could.

but doesn't catholicism say that no matter what sins you commit you will go to heaven if you ask for forgiveness? i'm no religious expert, but thats what i am led to believe.

if a murderer finds jesus and asks for forgiveness, he should still go straight to whatever hell there is.

[Scott Weber]

Don't make it sound like it's insane to think that, otherwise you're equally as condescending as he is.
I'm not being condescending in the least, I'm asking what he believes - I don't see how you interpreted it like that, especially in the context of the rest of the post. I'm interested in his beliefs. Many atheists believe that when you die, you die, and that's it.

[heyRomanticA__x]

You know Scott, I understand where you are coming from. Yet, you have to remember everyone isn't going to believe as you do.

[Scott Weber]

i don't know what happens when my life is over and i'll find out when it is. i certainly don't think heaven exists. i don't believe in the afterlife.

fuck, nothing is my best guess actually.

but i can't stand the heaven/hell idea. but i understand how one could.

but doesn't catholicism say that no matter what sins you commit you will go to heaven if you ask for forgiveness? i'm no religious expert, but thats what i am led to believe.

if a murderer finds jesus and asks for forgiveness, he should still go straight to whatever hell there is.
Yes, that is the belief. Forgiveness is a wonderful gift from God. I'm thankful for it, because I have committed some mighty sins in my day, and fortunately God has forgiven me for my sins. A common misconception is that somebody can just sin their entire life, thinking that as long as he bails out to God in the end, he'll be ok. God knows when your heart is pure, and if you truly repent for your sins, He will forgive you. So you're saying you don't believe in 2nd chances? That's not a life I want to live in. We are human, and to err is human. Murder is a catastrophic sin, but in God's eyes, all sins are created equal in that they are all evil. With pure intentions, one can repent their sins to God and achieve eternal life in heaven. That's my belief.

[Scott Weber]

You know Scott, I understand where you are coming from. Yet, you have to remember everyone isn't going to believe as you do.
People just need to calm down in here - The reason I'm having this discussion is because people believe in different things. I'm having a completely respectful and peaceful religious discussion with some users - I haven't accused anybody, I haven't judged anyone, and I haven't tried to convert anyone. Is it wrong to try and understand somebody else's beliefs? I'm not trying to convert anybody.

[Darren McLeod]

but doesn't catholicism say that no matter what sins you commit you will go to heaven if you ask for forgiveness? i'm no religious expert, but thats what i am led to believe.

if a murderer finds jesus and asks for forgiveness, he should still go straight to whatever hell there is.
That's a very generalized statement. Asking for forgiveness is not truely asking for it unless you repent sincerely. Can a murderer end up getting into Heaven? In most cases, no. However, if a murderer was a murderer early in his life, perhaps a troubled life, and then he repents and becomes a good person, then he is now a good person. Your past does not always define you as a person.

It's not as black and white as the "you ask for forgiveness and you're good" generalization says.

[lightcollapse]

Yes, that is the belief. Forgiveness is a wonderful gift from God. I'm thankful for it, because I have committed some mighty sins in my day, and fortunately God has forgiven me for my sins. A common misconception is that somebody can just sin their entire life, thinking that as long as he bails out to God in the end, he'll be ok. God knows when your heart is pure, and if you truly repent for your sins, He will forgive you. So you're saying you don't believe in 2nd chances? That's not a life I want to live in. We are human, and to err is human. Murder is a catastrophic sin, but in God's eyes, all sins are created equal in that they are all evil. With pure intentions, one can repent their sins to God and achieve eternal life in heaven. That's my belief.

so you're saying, spitting in someones floor is just as bad as stabbing your girlfriend 88 times?

i think heaven is a metaphorical term used in the bible so people can strive to live less sinful lives. i don't think it really exists, but i think the idea helps a lot of people.

forgiveness should only be granted if someone deserves it. in my eyes, there are sins that shouldn't ever be forgiven. murder is one of those.

try to imagine murdering someone. try to think of a person that would do something like that.

are they pure? can they be pure, ever, with that kind of mind?

[Darren McLeod]

Murder is a loose term. Is self-defence murder? It is taking another person's life, but under very different circumstances. There are people in this world who undergo significant changes because they are exposed to a much wider world than they knew when they were 20 growing up in poverty with a troubled family life.

[boldt_action]

I'd consider Discover America an indie band.
I know this is from the first page and off topic, but yeah, i forgot about them.
Yes, that is the belief. Forgiveness is a wonderful gift from God. I'm thankful for it, because I have committed some mighty sins in my day, and fortunately God has forgiven me for my sins. A common misconception is that somebody can just sin their entire life, thinking that as long as he bails out to God in the end, he'll be ok. God knows when your heart is pure, and if you truly repent for your sins, He will forgive you. So you're saying you don't believe in 2nd chances? That's not a life I want to live in. We are human, and to err is human. Murder is a catastrophic sin, but in God's eyes, all sins are created equal in that they are all evil. With pure intentions, one can repent their sins to God and achieve eternal life in heaven. That's my belief.
And I share that belief, Scott.

[heyRomanticA__x]

People just need to calm down in here - The reason I'm having this discussion is because people believe in different things. I'm having a completely respectful and peaceful religious discussion with some users - I haven't accused anybody, I haven't judged anyone, and I haven't tried to convert anyone. Is it wrong to try and understand somebody else's beliefs? I'm not trying to convert anybody.

Which is why I said "I understand where you are coming from." Also, no one here is upset? What's the need for calming down?

[lightcollapse]

Murder is a loose term. Is self-defence murder? It is taking another person's life, but under very different circumstances. There are people in this world who undergo significant changes because they are exposed to a much wider world than they knew when they were 20 growing up in poverty with a troubled family life.

murder is intentionally killing someone. self defense is protecting yourself.
i'm not counting manslaughter as murder either.

the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[lightcollapse]

Which is why I said "I understand where you are coming from." Also, no one here is upset? What's the need for calming down?

if i sound angry, i'm sorry. i'd just like to say here that i'm not and i'm interested in other peoples viewpoints of religion.

[Scott Weber]

try to imagine murdering someone. try to think of a person that would do something like that.

are they pure? can they be pure, ever, with that kind of mind?
I absolutely believe so. People make mistakes, like I said, sometimes they are monumental. Often it is because they do not know God, they were in the wrong crowd, they made a huge mistake. If that person finds God soon after and is truly willing to change his life and live in God's footsteps, then yes, he should be forgiven. If that person does not have pure intentions, or finds himself committing those same sins over again, then his heart is not pure and his repentence would be rejected by God, and he would not find himself in heaven.

[TyroneShoolaces]

People just need to calm down in here - The reason I'm having this discussion is because people believe in different things. I'm having a completely respectful and peaceful religious discussion with some users - I haven't accused anybody, I haven't judged anyone, and I haven't tried to convert anyone. Is it wrong to try and understand somebody else's beliefs? I'm not trying to convert anybody.

yea i give you props on being respectful about it. most of these types of conversations are just bullshit being thrown back and forth. nothing anybody says in here is going to change my mind on my beliefs, and i know mine wont do the same to anybody else.

to answer earlier questions: i was not the 'textbook christian-turned-athiest' 17 year old for the sake of rebellion. i pretty much believed in christianity completely, and it was just a slow process. it started with just a little bit of doubt. i was raised Lutheran and it's all i knew since i was born. at first it was just me questioning if Lutheranism was the right denomination of Christianity for me. i thought that with all these different sects of Christianity and thier differing views, some of them had to have it completely wrong even though thier hearts were in the right place. so it all pretty much started from there. i did a lot of reading and research on different religions and this is just the way it ended up, and i'm pretty steady on my views now.

and yea, i don't really believe anything happens after death.
i think the idea of going to heaven if you behave was tool created by those in power to keep the masses in order.

[heyRomanticA__x]

if i sound angry, i'm sorry. i'd just like to say here that i'm not and i'm interested in other peoples viewpoints of religion.

No, no one here sounds angry; this is actually a good thread. But, there are the ones who will come and argue and take away the "discussion" of this topic.

[lightcollapse]

I absolutely believe so. People make mistakes, like I said, sometimes they are monumental. Often it is because they do not know God, they were in the wrong crowd, they made a huge mistake. If that person finds God soon after and is truly willing to change his life and live in God's footsteps, then yes, he should be forgiven. If that person does not have pure intentions, or finds himself committing those same sins over again, then his heart is not pure and his repentence would be rejected by God, and he would not find himself in heaven.

do you think non religious people can get into heaven?

[Scott Weber]

Which is why I said "I understand where you are coming from." Also, no one here is upset? What's the need for calming down?
By saying that I needed to understand that everyone doesn't see it my way, I just didn't understand it, so it came across as somewhat hostile. The whole reason I'm having this discussion is because people don't see it my way - I'm just gaining insight into other beliefs. I understand it perfectly.

[TyroneShoolaces]

This is hilarious. I don't understand why people feel the need to shoot down people's beliefs. Does the creation of the world by a God not make sense to you? Fine! That's your idea! The idea that a bunch of matter collected together (and nobody knows where the FUCK this matter came from, by the way) and then exploded, and then another bunch of gas and dust happened to coalesce and condense, expand and create our solar system and in turn our planet, which just happens to be at the right position with the right atmosphere for sustainable human life (which again, came from chemical reactions) doesn't make sense to me. I do, however, understand why other people could believe in it, and I respect it. I am Catholic, but none of my friends are. 3/4s of them are atheist, with a Christian here and there, and some Sikhs and others thrown in as well.

though the scientific explanation is more bleak and unlikely, it is definitely the most rational.
much more than a method based on absolutely no proof.

[Scott Weber]

I've read some of the comments made in this thread and it makes me sad. There is a whole lot of judging going on based on religion. I believe that atheists are just as judgemental as christians.
I myself am a religious person. I too have trouble sometimes grasping the fact that there is a higher being. I choose to believe because I would like to think that there is a place I will go after I have died. Why is that so hard to believe? If you want to believe that you will die and rot in the ground for the rest of eternity then that is your choice. I don't hold anything against you and most people wont. I wish that you kids could get rid of all your hatred towards religions and religious people. I could go on but I've probably rambled on enough.
There's really only been 1 judgemental post in these comments, but from an outsider coming in to read them without seeing the context of the discussion, I could see that. I agree with the judgemental thing. When talking to my atheist friends, I find that many Atheists seem to hate Christians for the sole reason that they find happiness in something they don't believe exists. That tends to anger them and leads to irrational judgement. I am certainly not grouping all atheists in that, it's just a viewpoint I've seen several times.

[TyroneShoolaces]

do you think non religious people can get into heaven?

if you actually take the word of the Bible for what it's worth, denying the 'holy spirit' is the only unforgivable sin. so trying to convert me back to christianity would prove very unfruitful, haha.

[lightcollapse]

though the scientific explanation is more bleak and unlikely, it is definitely the most rational.
much more than a method based on absolutely no proof.

i think we're just not technologically advanced enough to discover our true origin, but someday we will be so we can't say that now.

[TyroneShoolaces]

i think we're just not technologically advanced enough to discover our true origin, but someday we will be so we can't say that now.

whats everyones stance on evolution?

whoa whoa whoa. let's try not to widen this discussion too much. let's stay focused, haha. save that one for next weeks discussion question on the news board.

[Darren McLeod]

do you think non religious people can get into heaven?
I do. I believe that getting into Heaven relies on how you lived your life, and non-Christians can get in as well if they were moral citizens, but the Book disagrees with me on this one.

[heyRomanticA__x]

By saying that I needed to understand that everyone doesn't see it my way, I just didn't understand it, so it came across as somewhat hostile. The whole reason I'm having this discussion is because people don't see it my way - I'm just gaining insight into other beliefs. I understand it perfectly.

Ah, I see. I must have taken a few things the wrong way. Anyways, I grew up around people that were just hypocritical with religion. It turned me away from it.

[lightcollapse]

whoa whoa whoa. let's try not to widen this discussion too much. let's stay focused, haha. save that one for next weeks discussion question on the news board.

ridiculously good point. edited.

thats just a mind blowing issue in my opinion.

but anyway, yeah i agree the scientific idea is much more rational.
actually, its very rational.
so we don't know where the matter came from YET.
the universe is HUGE. after the microwave energy bang, earth is the one instance where everything went perfect and life was created.

looking at the size of the universe, i don't see how that isn't rational.

[Scott Weber]

do you think non religious people can get into heaven?
I believe that if somebody is presented with an option to accept or deny God, and they choose to deny Him forever, then they will not see Heaven. But honestly, that is just what I think, and there is absolutely no way to know whether I am right or not. One thing that I do believe for sure is that accepting God into your life will grant you eternal life.

[lightcollapse]

I do. I believe that getting into Heaven relies on how you lived your life, and non-Christians can get in as well if they were moral citizens, but the Book disagrees with me on this one.

i believe the original bible said 'homosexuals shall have rocks thrown at them' or something close to that. the bible doesn't evolve with society, so a lot of the issues it adresses aren't relevant in my opinion.

[lightcollapse]

I believe that if somebody is presented with an option to accept or deny God, and they choose to deny Him forever, then they will not see Heaven. But honestly, that is just what I think, and there is absolutely no way to know whether I am right or not. One thing that I do believe for sure is that accepting God into your life will grant you eternal life.
so you're saying i have no chance at heaven because i don't base my beliefs/life around a book of stories that have no proof?

[Scott Weber]

Ah, I see. I must have taken a few things the wrong way. Anyways, I grew up around people that were just hypocritical with religion. It turned me away from it.
That's the reason I don't attend church currently. I've never found a church that wasn't full of hypocritical, fake, and corrupt people. I choose to express my faith in other ways.

[Scott Weber]

ridiculously good point. edited.

thats just a mind blowing issue in my opinion.

but anyway, yeah i agree the scientific idea is much more rational.
actually, its very rational.
so we don't know where the matter came from YET.
the universe is HUGE. after the microwave energy bang, earth is the one instance where everything went perfect and life was created.

looking at the size of the universe, i don't see how that isn't rational.
I couldn't disagree with you more, but that's just me. Everything "went perfect" just doesn't cut it for me - especially when everything else in science is backed up by cold, hard facts. The Big Bang theory is just as much speculation as a creationist theory. I don't see that as rational at all - refer to Darren's post on the Big Bang, I share virtually all the same sentiments he does.

[lightcollapse]

I couldn't disagree with you more, but that's just me. Everything "went perfect" just doesn't cut it for me - especially when everything else in science is backed up by cold, hard facts. The Big Bang theory is just as much speculation as a creationist theory. I don't see that as rational at all - refer to Darren's post on the Big Bang, I share virtually all the same sentiments he does.

see, and i just think that its a theory that we just aren't advanced enough to prove yet, and time will tell us our true origin. i don't think we can even speculate right now.

[Scott Weber]

so you're saying i have no chance at heaven because i don't base my beliefs/life around a book of stories that have no proof?
Only God can judge you.

[TyroneShoolaces]

Only God can judge you.

ahhhhh Tupuc.

[lightcollapse]

Only God can judge you.

and god will judge me based on how much i worship him, since god obviously has a huge ego that needs to be constantly fed, and anyone that doesn't accept the idea of him without proof is moot?

i can't imagine anyone worshipping that.

[Sureshot182]

I understand. However, there are many that hate religion for reasons I will never comprehend. Personally, I have expierenced so many things in my life that have given me substantial proof that there is a God. I understand why it is difficult for many to come to grips with a higher being. Spirituality is not something that exists in concrete, scientific fact. God doesn't control us though - He has granted us the power of choice, even you. Your choice to deny God and believe in something else is actually a gift from God.
scott weber, you are the man.

[Scott Weber]

Here's an interesting concept that I actually think about all the time, and talking with Darren made me remember it. If my life ends, and I am wrong about there being a God, then so what? Nothing happens, I just die. But I lived my life with content, with faith, and with fufillment. And if there is no heaven, I died happy thinking there was one. Is there concrete proof to Christianity? Of course not. Faith is not about scientific fact, it's about a feeling, it's just something you know. It's something we choose to believe in. If we are wrong, then that's it. But on the other hand, if an sinning atheist who denies God is wrong, when he dies he shall suffer in the afterlife.

[Darren McLeod]

i believe the original bible said 'homosexuals shall have rocks thrown at them' or something close to that. the bible doesn't evolve with society, so a lot of the issues it adresses aren't relevant in my opinion.
Again, I believe that God loves all people, and although I consider myself a Christian, I don't see any problems with homosexuals and homosexuality.

The reason the Bible is such a brilliant book is because of the last point you mentioned. Yes, society changes drastically, so a normal piece of literature wouldn't be able to keep up. However, because of all the parables, metaphors, and other figurative language found in the Bible, the Book is still something that billions of people worldwide can relate to.

[heyRomanticA__x]

That's the reason I don't attend church currently. I've never found a church that wasn't full of hypocritical, fake, and corrupt people. I choose to express my faith in other ways.

That's exactly the kind of church I was raised in. I went to my grandmother's church of "christian jews". Basically, they didn't do christmas, believed in Jesus, did passover, kept the food laws in Leviticus, kept the 10 commandments, "kept" the Bible to a "t" and riddiculed everyone around them. The adults attending the church were allowed to give individual testimony, boy did that idea go wrong. They give their testimony and bash who ever upset them that day. Husband against wife, friend against friend. Outside of church, they were the most horrible people ever. Drinking, fighting, adultry, breaking commandments, all things they spoke against they did. I never understood how they could act like that for 6 days out of the week, and become an automatic saint on the sabbath.

Oh yeah, now the celebrate christmas.

[TyroneShoolaces]

I don't see any problems with homosexuals and homosexuality.


Are you coming on to me?

[Darren McLeod]

Are you coming on to me?
Maybe.

[lightcollapse]

Here's an interesting concept that I actually think about all the time, and talking with Darren made me remember it. If my life ends, and I am wrong about there being a God, then so what? Nothing happens, I just die. But I lived my life with content, with faith, and with fufillment. And if there is no heaven, I died happy thinking there was one. Is there concrete proof to Christianity? Of course not. Faith is not about scientific fact, it's about a feeling, it's just something you know. It's something we choose to believe in. If we are wrong, then that's it. But on the other hand, if an sinning atheist who denies God is wrong, when he dies he shall suffer in the afterlife.

refer to my previous point. i do not believe at ALL that 'god' bases who enters heaven on who believes in his existence without proof. some people think more scientifically than others, and god would obvisously understand that. so as an athiest, if i'm wrong and there is a heaven, god will understand that i am a good and pure person and allow me into heaven even though my positions on faith were mathematical rather than fully accepting.

in regards to darren, relating to something does not mean basing life changing decisions on it. in 100 years teenagers will still relate to the catcher in the rye, but it isn't a bible.

[lightcollapse]

Again, I believe that God loves all people, and although I consider myself a Christian, I don't see any problems with homosexuals and homosexuality.

The reason the Bible is such a brilliant book is because of the last point you mentioned. Yes, society changes drastically, so a normal piece of literature wouldn't be able to keep up. However, because of all the parables, metaphors, and other figurative language found in the Bible, the Book is still something that billions of people worldwide can relate to.

if the bible is so perfect, why does it hate homosexuals?

[satanisanerd]

Yes, that is your personal opinion, and I disagree with it. I, among many, choose to believe in a higher being, that life has a purpose. God is an integral part of my life and has been for years. If it provides me and others with a sense of purpose and fufillment, then why do you hate religion? You can disagree with it, but why hate?

I can't agree with you with more Scott. You took the words out of my mouth.

[Scott Weber]

and god will judge me based on how much i worship him, since god obviously has a huge ego that needs to be constantly fed, and anyone that doesn't accept the idea of him without proof is moot?

i can't imagine anyone worshipping that.
We as Christians choose to worship God not because he demands it, but because he deserves it. There will most likely never be scientific fact to satisfy your thirst for physical proof of there being a God. I personally look at my life, and what I've been given - I have great friends, an amazing family, I am at an excellent university that I almost didn't get into - it's the things in my life that I've been granted that act as proof for me. It's the prayers that have been answered, the spirit that runs through me when I need Him most. It's how amazingly beautiful this world is, it's a sunset, it's a mountain range - it sounds cheesy, but I look at that, and I see God's creation. I didn't fully accept Christ into my life until I was 14, and up until then I had never expierenced God as a part of me. For many people, they do not believe until it just hits them at some point, some event, or some realization that leads them to God.

[Darren McLeod]

in regards to darren, relating to something does not mean basing life changing decisions on it. in 100 years teenagers will still relate to the catcher in the rye, but it isn't a bible.
Nobody bases life-changing decisions on The Catcher In The Rye?

Tell that to the guy who shot John Lennon.

[heyRomanticA__x]

I believe I have learned abit from this thread.

[Scott Weber]

That's exactly the kind of church I was raised in. I went to my grandmother's church of "christian jews". Basically, they didn't do christmas, believed in Jesus, did passover, kept the food laws in Leviticus, kept the 10 commandments, "kept" the Bible to a "t" and riddiculed everyone around them. The adults attending the church were allowed to give individual testimony, boy did that idea go wrong. They give their testimony and bash who ever upset them that day. Husband against wife, friend against friend. Outside of church, they were the most horrible people ever. Drinking, fighting, adultry, breaking commandments, all things they spoke against they did. I never understood how they could act like that for 6 days out of the week, and become an automatic saint on the sabbath.

Oh yeah, now the celebrate christmas.
That's really unfortunate. I hope that didn't drive you away from God permanently, because that is not how it should be.

[lightcollapse]

Nobody bases life-changing decisions on The Catcher In The Rye?

Tell that to the guy who shot John Lennon.

a perfect example of one who thinks rationally, right?

[Darren McLeod]

if the bible is so perfect, why does it hate homosexuals?
There are two arguments. One is that the Bible is perfect, and therefore homosexuality is wrong.

However, I disagree with that. The Bible is not perfect. God gave the events that inspired the Bible, but He didn't write nor compile it Himself. That was done by man, and men are fallible.

[lightcollapse]

We as Christians choose to worship God not because he demands it, but because he deserves it. There will most likely never be scientific fact to satisfy your thirst for physical proof of there being a God. I personally look at my life, and what I've been given - I have great friends, an amazing family, I am at an excellent university that I almost didn't get into - it's the things in my life that I've been granted that act as proof for me. It's the prayers that have been answered, the spirit that runs through me when I need Him most. It's how amazingly beautiful this world is, it's a sunset, it's a mountain range - it sounds cheesy, but I look at that, and I see God's creation. I didn't fully accept Christ into my life until I was 14, and up until then I had never expierenced God as a part of me. For many people, they do not believe until it just hits them at some point, some event, or some realization that leads them to God.

okay, lets say i never realize god.

are you still saying that because i think mathematically and have believe in science over pure faith, i have no chance of getting into heaven no matter how pure of a person i am, while the murderer who finds jesus does?

[lightcollapse]

There are two arguments. One is that the Bible is perfect, and therefore homosexuality is wrong.

However, I disagree with that. The Bible is not perfect. God gave the events that inspired the Bible, but He didn't write nor compile it Himself. That was done by man, and men are fallible.

okay, i was just wondering. i understand that completely.

[Scott Weber]

refer to my previous point. i do not believe at ALL that 'god' bases who enters heaven on who believes in his existence without proof. some people think more scientifically than others, and god would obvisously understand that. so as an athiest, if i'm wrong and there is a heaven, god will understand that i am a good and pure person and allow me into heaven even though my positions on faith were mathematical rather than fully accepting.

in regards to darren, relating to something does not mean basing life changing decisions on it. in 100 years teenagers will still relate to the catcher in the rye, but it isn't a bible.
I think a lot more scientifically than many Christians do. Evolution exists, there's no doubt in my mind. Dinosaurs did rule the earth for a period of time. That's why in my mind, there's no way the Earth was created in 7 literal, 24 hour days. Of course God understands the scientific reasoning, he is omnipotent. But that doesn't mean that one can stare God in the face and tell Him he doesn't exist, then join him in the afterlife in heaven. That's my stance on it, others disagree.

[Darren McLeod]

I have to go now. Just a reminder to the folks reading this: Scott and I do not represent Christianity as a whole. As you can see, we differ greatly in a few opinions, and there are many different beliefs within the religion, especially between denominations.

Don't take our word as gospel (pun intended), or as the official belief of every Christian, but recognize it as our own personal opinion.

[dretti]

How can you not believe in a god? What created man and earth itself? Thats where you pull out the big bang theory and whatever, but if you want to speak in those terms...what created the very first molecules, or the energy that created the big bang? It had to of come from somewhere. It all comes back to the beginning, and a God.

[lightcollapse]

I think a lot more scientifically than many Christians do. Evolution exists, there's no doubt in my mind. Dinosaurs did rule the earth for a period of time. That's why in my mind, there's no way the Earth was created in 7 literal, 24 hour days. Of course God understands the scientific reasoning, he is omnipotent. But that doesn't mean that one can stare God in the face and tell Him he doesn't exist, then join him in the afterlife in heaven. That's my stance on it, others disagree.

nobody who doesn't believe in god is staring him in the face. they think, god can't be a part of my life right now because i can't force myself to have faith in him. but if there is a god, i will thank him eternally.

lets say they take that belief to their death (me)

i can't go to heaven because i wasn't completely satisfied with him in my earth life? because i was influenced by christianity and everyone around me to turn away from religion without proof of any true existence?

[Scott Weber]

okay, lets say i never realize god.

are you still saying that because i think mathematically and have believe in science over pure faith, i have no chance of getting into heaven no matter how pure of a person i am, while the murderer who finds jesus does?
A murderer who accepts Christ into his life and repents his sins with pure intentions is no longer a sinner in God's eyes. If his repentence is pure, then he is no longer a threat to society, and he has been forgiven for his mistakes - thank God for forgiving us when we make mistakes. But stop asking me to judge whether you will go to heaven or not. I won't do it - that's something you need to discover on your own. Sometimes the best proof of all lies within your own heart. It's a feeling I expierenced when I accepted Him into my life, it's a feeling I get when I ask forgiveness for my sins.

[lightcollapse]

How can you not believe in a god? What created man and earth itself? Thats where you pull out the big bang theory and whatever, but if you want to speak in those terms...what created the very first molecules, or the energy that created the big bang? It had to of come from somewhere. It all comes back to the beginning, and a God.

if you define god as 'whats behind it all' rather than 'the supreme being' then i agree with you.

if you define him as the supreme being then we don't know where it all came from yet, but we're waiting to become advanced enough so that we can discover our origin.

[TyroneShoolaces]

I have to go now. Just a reminder to the folks reading this: Scott and I do not represent Christianity as a whole. As you can see, we differ greatly in a few opinions, and there are many different beliefs within the religion, especially between denominations.

Don't take our word as gospel (pun intended), or as the official belief of every Christian, but recognize it as our own personal opinion.

i have to go too.
as a gesture of good faith (pun intended) you should check out the band i manage.
www.myspace.com/eleanorsfault
www.purevolume.com/eleanorsfault
(Currently on PureVolume PurePicks!)

[Scott Weber]

I have to go now. Just a reminder to the folks reading this: Scott and I do not represent Christianity as a whole. As you can see, we differ greatly in a few opinions, and there are many different beliefs within the religion, especially between denominations.

Don't take our word as gospel (pun intended), or as the official belief of every Christian, but recognize it as our own personal opinion.
Yeah, I can't stress this enough.

[heyRomanticA__x]

That's really unfortunate. I hope that didn't drive you away from God permanently, because that is not how it should be.


I'm actually agnostic/atheist (learning about atheism as we speak) of right now. I don't go around bashing God or christianity, because I understand that everyone needs something to believe in. I don't hate religion, and I actually enjoy studying religion in the classroom. I've always wanted to know if there was a way the different religions of the world were connected. Any thoughs of if that could be?

[scorcho490]

For all these people identifying themselves as scientific and therefore cannot believe in God I highly recommend you take a class on the History and Philosophy of Science. Also, read Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." Both will make you rethink science as you know it.

[Scott Weber]

I'm actually agnostic/atheist (learning about atheism as we speak) of right now. I don't go around bashing God or christianity, because I understand that everyone needs something to believe in. I don't hate religion, and I actually enjoy studying religion in the classroom. I've always wanted to know if there was a way the different religions of the world were connected. Any thoughs of if that could be?
Not off the top of my head. If you're at a college, I would just suggest taking a comparative religion course - I am graduating in June and I have a free quarter to take some electives next quarter, I'm hoping to take one myself.

[lightcollapse]

For all these people identifying themselves as scientific and therefore cannot believe in God I highly recommend you take a class on the History and Philosophy of Science. Also, read Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." Both will make you rethink science as you know it.

i'm not scientific, i just think people will be able to discover a rational solution to our origin with facts and evidence to back the position up someday.

[scorcho490]

i'm not scientific, i just think people will be able to discover a rational solution to our origin with facts and evidence to back the position up someday.

That is what I'm saying. Rational solutions, facts, evidence, these are all based on the scientific method, which is not so infallible as people like to think. Anyway, this is another topic entirely and an incredibly dense one at that.

[lightcollapse]

That is what I'm saying. Rational solutions, facts, evidence, these are all based on the scientific method, which is not so infallible as people like to think. Anyway, this is another topic entirely and an incredibly dense one at that.

...yeah i don't see how evidence could be fallible. but i'm no expert.

[Scott Weber]

...yeah i don't see how evidence could be fallible. but i'm no expert.
Which is why you should read the book.

[forgetevth]

here is my take on religion.

im a christian but i do not believe in religion or support it at all. (not saying it is bad)
to me religion is only man-made set of rules to gain the favor and acceptance of a god...
but as a Christian i know that i cant gain God through following rules or being a good person. i have to have faith and faith alone can bring me salvation.
with that being stated: ive noticed alot of athiests who i know who use the argument of all the bad things that christians do in the name of God. i think christians who murder abortioners, treat girls who get abortions horrible, treat homosexuals horrible...are themselves horrible people. there is a vast difference between the law of the old testament and the new covenant of the new testament. christianity is based all on love and acceptance. christ did not condemn one man. he loved the prostitutes and the murderes just as much as his disciples. so what i urge is for people to research what the difference is between the old and new testament before you denounce christianity completely.

check out www.vivalarevolution.org (http://www.vivalarevolution.org) jay baker is a genious and was once an athiest also.

[lightcollapse]

here is my take on religion.

im a christian but i do not believe in religion or support it at all. (not saying it is bad)
to me religion is only man-made set of rules to gain the favor and acceptance of a god...
but as a Christian i know that i cant gain God through following rules or being a good person. i have to have faith and faith alone can bring me salvation.
with that being stated: ive noticed alot of athiests who i know who use the argument of all the bad things that christians do in the name of God. i think christians who murder abortioners, treat girls who get abortions horrible, treat homosexuals horrible...are themselves horrible people. there is a vast difference between the law of the old testament and the new covenant of the new testament. christianity is based all on love and acceptance. christ did not condemn one man. he loved the prostitutes and the murderes just as much as his disciples. so what i urge is for people to research what the difference is between the old and new testament before you denounce christianity completely.

check out www.vivalarevolution.org (http://www.vivalarevolution.org) jay baker is a genious and was once an athiest also.

*is offended, being a jew*

the old testament isn't one big fucking center of hate. the old testament mixed with the new test make christianity, not just one of them.

[lightcollapse]

i don't get the faith=salvation arguement. if god is so amazing, he has to understand how someone could doubt him, being no tangible proof of his existence. so i don't see how he would flaw someone for not being able to wholeheartedly make him a part of their life during their time on earth.

[forgetevth]

*is offended, being a jew*

the old testament isn't one big fucking center of hate. the old testament mixed with the new test make christianity, not just one of them.

i wasnt implying that... what i was saying is alot of (christians) people use the civil law in leviticus and deuteronomy to prove that it is ok to hate homosexuals and a bunch of other things...but they forget what the new testament says.

im sorry if you thought i was implying that the old testament was hateful. i believe in the old testament...and my current fav. book of the whole bible is ecclesiastes. i just think alot of people need to get the full grasp of christianity. its not just the old testament or new testament. its both. and if you dont understand the law and the new covenant, then you may get the wrong idea of christianity

[lightcollapse]

i wasnt implying that... what i was saying is alot of (christians) people use the civil law in leviticus and deuteronomy to prove that it is ok to hate homosexuals and a bunch of other things...but they forget what the new testament says.

im sorry if you thought i was implying that the old testament was hateful. i believe in the old testament...and my current fav. book of the whole bible is ecclesiastes. i just think alot of people need to get the full grasp of christianity. its not just the old testament or new testament. its both. and if you dont understand the law and the new covenant, then you may get the wrong idea of christianity

yeah. being raised jewish, i don't know shit about the new testament. if i were to choose a religion, i would say i'm jewish, because i honestly have a really strong intangible connection to it. i understand it, and my temple is such a wonderful community of educated, smart, and genuinely nice people.

yeah...if you take one part of a religion and scrutinize it, you're not understanding the full spectrum. its like saying red is the only color.

[Scott Weber]

i don't get the faith=salvation arguement. if god is so amazing, he has to understand how someone could doubt him, being no tangible proof of his existence. so i don't see how he would flaw someone for not being able to wholeheartedly make him a part of their life during their time on earth.
But God gave us the power of choice. He gave us freedom. There's a reason he doesn't just take everyone into heaven by revealing himself as a physical being to 100% of the people in the world.

[lightcollapse]

But God gave us the power of choice. He gave us freedom. There's a reason he doesn't just take everyone into heaven by revealing himself as a physical being to 100% of the people in the world.

you have no idea who is in heaven and who isn't.

and denial until proof of existence is a natural human reaction. the ostrich syndrome, if you don't see it its not there. maybe god doesn't reveal his existence because he wants people to focus on other aspects of their life other than him, while still incorporating religion at the same time.

[forgetevth]

you have no idea who is in heaven and who isn't.

and denial until proof of existence is a natural human reaction. the ostrich syndrome, if you don't see it its not there. maybe god doesn't reveal his existence because he wants people to focus on other aspects of their life other than him, while still incorporating religion at the same time.

i dont know everyone who is in heaven. but i believe that alot of people who i known whom have died and lived there life for christ are in heaven...

the only proof i ever needed for knowing christ exists and God is real, and that there is a heaven and hell is what ive seen christ do in my life and my friends and families life. no one can deny what has happend in my own life.

[Scott Weber]

you have no idea who is in heaven and who isn't.

and denial until proof of existence is a natural human reaction. the ostrich syndrome, if you don't see it its not there. maybe god doesn't reveal his existence because he wants people to focus on other aspects of their life other than him, while still incorporating religion at the same time.
You're right, I don't. It's just what I believe. The choice to accept/deny God is yours. I'm sure God is well aware of natural human reaction. All actions we make in life should be centered around God, not as a sideshow to him. It's impossible to focus on other aspects of life and have God on the side - he is the focal point of every action we take.

[lightcollapse]

i dont know everyone who is in heaven. but i believe that alot of people who i known whom have died and lived there life for christ are in heaven...

the only proof i ever needed for knowing christ exists and God is real, and that there is a heaven and hell is what ive seen christ do in my life and my friends and families life. no one can deny what has happend in my own life.

if you feel the need to believe in christ, thats great. as long as it doesn't have any negative effects on you, you're uniqueness, or your life.

but do you think god doesn't accept the people who aren't able to feel that connection in the modern world? you don't think he understands the pure, innocent, and (i won't say smart, but) certainly not unrational decision some people have made to not involve a god in their earth life?

[forgetevth]

but do you think god doesn't accept the people who aren't able to feel that connection in the modern world? you don't think he understands the pure, innocent, and (i won't say smart, but) certainly not unrational decision some people have made to not involve a god in their earth life?

God accpets everyone. his love for you and me is no different and can never be changed or altered. but his acceptance and love does not equal salvation... a person accepting that love and acceptance of God and believing it exists is salvation. he definatly understands why people do not involve him in there lifes. he knew people would doubt and not believe. he wants though everyone to believe.

[hipvlr06]

I'm actually agnostic/atheist (learning about atheism as we speak) of right now. I don't go around bashing God or christianity, because I understand that everyone needs something to believe in. I don't hate religion, and I actually enjoy studying religion in the classroom. I've always wanted to know if there was a way the different religions of the world were connected. Any thoughs of if that could be?
I'm not completely sure on all of this so if someone is more knowledgeable on the subject they can correct me. Judaism split into Judaism and Christianity when Jesus came to earth. Judaism rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah and Christians formed in their belief that Jesus is the Messiah. The Old Testament of the Bible has the same first 5 books as the Torah(?). Now I do not know how accurate this is either but I remember hearing that Ishmael, Abraham's first son from his servant, was where islam split from judaism. Ishmael split off and Isaac, Abraham's son born from his wife, Sara, was the son who would be connected with God's promise that through his lineage the Messiah would come. I am not sure about the whole Islam thing though because Mohammad came about sometime after Jesus, I do not know when, and they regard many of the figures in the Bible as great prophets, including Jesus, but Mohammad is considered superior to the rest according to Islam. So I hope that might clear up where some of the "main" religions came from Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I am completely ignorant on where Buddhism or Hinduism came from but I think that Mormons started by Joseph Smith when he saw an angel appear to him just as Mohammed claimed to see an angel. I am not completely sure about all this so if I am wrong I apologize. I recommend reading "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis for anyone who is a Christian because it has explained some of the doubts that I have had being a Christian and also for anyone who wishes to learn more because it might be of benefit but i am in no means promising it will change anyone's views. Plus C.S. Lewis is a talented author who also used to be an athiest.

[forgetevth]

hipvlr06... i think your pretty correct on all that.

[Scott Weber]

if you feel the need to believe in christ, thats great. as long as it doesn't have any negative effects on you, you're uniqueness, or your life.

but do you think god doesn't accept the people who aren't able to feel that connection in the modern world? you don't think he understands the pure, innocent, and (i won't say smart, but) certainly not unrational decision some people have made to not involve a god in their earth life?
Atheist does not equal agnostic - lets make that distinction. You're forced the discussion to this like 5 times now...if you are an Atheist, and you believe in NOTHING, that there is no God, then you have looked God in the face and denied him, and no acts of kindness can bring you salvation. That is my opinion - others disagree. Agnostic people are debateable. I believe it depends on each individual person, that's why I can't be in the position to judge.

[Darren McLeod]

I'm actually agnostic/atheist (learning about atheism as we speak) of right now. I don't go around bashing God or christianity, because I understand that everyone needs something to believe in. I don't hate religion, and I actually enjoy studying religion in the classroom. I've always wanted to know if there was a way the different religions of the world were connected. Any thoughs of if that could be?
Like the person above me mentioned, many religions are very connected. Islam and Christianity branched from Judeaism, Sikhism branched from Hinduism and Islam, and Buddhism branched from Hinduism as well. Also, Christianity shares many symbols with various Pagan religions.

Not off the top of my head. If you're at a college, I would just suggest taking a comparative religion course - I am graduating in June and I have a free quarter to take some electives next quarter, I'm hoping to take one myself.
I'm taking a comparitive religion course right now, it's one of the best courses I've ever taken. It's allowed me to better understand what the different religions really stand for, and see through the bullshit misconceptions most people associate with them.

i'm not scientific, i just think people will be able to discover a rational solution to our origin with facts and evidence to back the position up someday.
Until death or the end of time (take your pick), there will probably never be proof. There have been countless prophets and even Messiahs in numerous religions, and if those aren't considered proof because we weren't alive during their time (as we are alive but a blink of an eye in the history of the universe), then there never shall be proof. Science can never prove everything, and even when it does, how are we sure it's correct? Every generation of humans have assumed their scientific discoveries to be correct, yet Science is constantly evolving. There will never be proof on either side.

[Darren McLeod]

check out www.vivalarevolution.org (http://www.vivalarevolution.org) jay baker is a genious and was once an athiest also.
Thanks for the link. I'm going to download the files shortly, and can't wait to listen.

[forgetevth]

Thanks for the link. I'm going to download the files shortly, and can't wait to listen.

i think a good one to start with is "missing the point" 3-28-05

[robdobi]

Until death or the end of time (take your pick), there will probably never be proof.

http://www.iflipflop.com/virgin_mary_grilled_cheese.jpg

[forgetevth]

honestly that looks more like marilyn monroe than anything

[Darren McLeod]

i think a good one to start with is "missing the point" 3-28-05
Thanks. I just read the "idea" section, and they seem to stand for exactly what I do. Weebs, make sure to check that link out if you already haven't. It looks fantastic.
http://www.iflipflop.com/virgin_mary_grilled_cheese.jpg
You win the thread.

[Scott Weber]

Thanks. I just read the "idea" section, and they seem to stand for exactly what I do. Weebs, make sure to check that link out if you already haven't. It looks fantastic.

You win the thread.
I'm doing that right now.

Is that a frozen grilled cheese sandwich?

[crzydrmmer]

i think that this is one of the better articles pitchfork has written lately

[forgetevth]

notyetdonenow1 IM if anyone wants to talk more bout religion/christianity/beliefs im down with discussion not really debate though cause people get pissed and hurt then.

[twilightcitykid]

ok you're going to have to take everything im about to write with a grain of salt.

first, a slight tangent. bare with me:
it's very hip and status quo to hate jesus or mock him or hate religion. it's also very easy to make it seem like the world is run by christians or religion therefore making your hatred or contempt towards it even more justified, since you appear to be the underdog or the hero or whatever. the truth is, the world has one main religion and that is money. the people at the very top are the people that hold the center of the world's wealth and they have every country by the balls. the united states is run by these wealthy elite and happen to be one of the head honchos, most of the greatest and powerful nations are also at the visible end of the marionette strings. this is why our government is in bed with corporations and everything is completely sold-out, including the media which is in cohoots and continues to control the masses through persuasion, lies, and fear. voting is just something that makes us feel like we have a choice, when the truth is we're deciding between one of their pawns or the other. conservative or liberal, atheist or christian, right-wing or feminist most people involved in politics bow down to the same master and it's all a front. the people at the top have kept their bloodlines in power for longer than you could imagine and they have never professed christianity to be their religion in fact they have supported the destruction, mocking, and denouncement of christ in every way possible. they outright profess no religion, however if you look into their history you will find ties with occultism, witchcraft, and mysticism. christ called the high councils of isreal, the government at the time, a generation of vipers. sure we've had "christian" presidents and sure being "christian" is the all-american good-guy way to be but upon further inspection you'll find the many people that proclaim the faith have honestly no actual clue about christ and probably think he wants you to carry a shotgun around and use it to pick off any homosexuals that happen to wander in front of the barrel.
this is all bullshit.
just like the big-balled texas christian image that Bush portrays, when in fact the Bush's are a New England based wealthy family powerhouse who made a majority of their profits off the illegal smuggling of opium into the northeast during the early twentieth century.
but this is a whole other topic, and if your interested at all look it up, start with the word illuminati.
that is, if you don't think it's all paranoid "conspiracy" nonsense. in which case, you might still believe everything channel 2 news feeds down your throat.

so no, this world or this country is not run by christians or any main religion. and yes, being a christian is harder than you think with the world ready to mock you or shun you or paint you out to be a nut if you even slightly let on that your down with what the homeboy said while he walked the earth.

with this being said,
the problem is christianity has been transformed and labeled as a "religion." disguised as a set of rules or fairy tales meant to control your life. what it was, was an incident. a man named yeshua, known to us as jesus, whose conception and birth was incredibly mysterious and intrigueing, proclaimed he had an insight into the higher powers that we cannot possibly fathom or concieve in our three-dimensional universe. he would leave for days at a time and was witnessed conversing with mysterious lights in the sky and on mountain tops. he would do things in front of peoples eyes that would seem physically impossible. he used this as physical proof of his connection with higher powers. after all, people needed to be convinced with their own eyes and he was willing to prove it. he gathered a few men and walked all over the middle east bringing his message of hope and love and faith. he said to his apostles that what happened in that small sector of the earth during those short few years in history would be written and talked about for thousands of years to come. he claimed to be the physical living proof of God and therefore the son of god (God in the flesh). he said his final act of proof would be defeating physical death and rising again after being crucified. his disciples, although at first shaken and unwilling, eventually admitted to seeing him return after being murdered and even lost their lives because they wouldnt retract their statements and were crucifed upside down and hung. i think most people you know would profess the sky wasn't blue if it meant they could keep their lives but these men we're willing to die for something they knew they saw. he offered salvation, insight, and spiritual solitude for those that believed him. worth a look, don't you think? he spoke about the millions of people that would come in his name or disguised as his supporter but said you could look closer and see through them.

as far as the plethora of unjust death and pain that has been performed in the name of jesus, he said himself he wasn't here to bring peace. peace on physical earth was never his goal.

as far as the stories in the old testament, they can all be interpreted differently. metaphors , perhaps. i, for one, see the passing of the apple to adam as a metaphor for the mysterious gap in evolution between cro-magnon and conscious man. our coming into knowledge, and inheriting the curses that come with it. whether through genetic manipulation or whatever, doesn't matter. the same creatures discussed in Genesis (nephilim) have been found in ancient Sumerian texts and egyptian symbolism. read Sitchin. take it with a grain of salt.


and for you hipsters afraid that being interested in jesus will diss your cred, know that some of the greatest and most artistic minds have aligned with christ or were intrigued with him. c.s. lewis said he was either "liar, lunatic, or lord."

science has never disproven God. we already know the universe can't possibly have a physical end (a sudden wall) and it is impossible in our minds for it to continue forever. so we've already got something that exists outside our physical minds. so then, what else does? as far as absolute truth versus non absolutes, the statement "there is no absolute truth" is already an absolute. i was raised a catholic, studied Tao-ism, and other far-eastern philosophies (all of which also hold greath truth and relevance), i came to a lot of walls and dead ends, considered myself a humanist atheist (moral fiber is un-argueably still always important) and finally came to an existential outlook on life, even dancing dangerously close to nihilism. this was a time of much depression and despair. so i've had my struggle and turned to a lot of things but i always find the most comfort and solitude in the teachings and words of Christ. but that's just me. i'm not perfect and i could be wrong. not trying to be preachy (although i seemingly was). just trying to offer my perspective on a forum that i hardly ever utilize, although i've been an avid witness and subscriber for quite some time.

it's all about love baby

[Allular]

I think the fact that slowly, day by day, intelligent design has been proven more right than evolution is making it very easy, scientifically, to believe that Christianity makes perfect sense.

In my mind, heart and logic, I truly believe Jesus was the real deal. There are many reasons and facts leading to this.

I don't necessarily believe Scott Weber has it on the nose in this conversation, but I give everyone props for talking about it.

The way I see it, is why NOT have all these things possible? Why not have a faith in something that's not as crazy as saying that this Earth evolved from a speck of dirt 1,000,000,000 years ago (something coming from nothing?). I'd rather put my stock in God, who actually CREATED it.

If God created the earth, then why NOT have the earth be created in literally seven days (Scott, in The Bible, there's no way you can misinterpret that, read the Creation account in Genesis), or Satan tempting Adam and Eve. All of the creation accounts are SO essential to faith that we cannot discredit them as something other than fact, cause if you're shaky on that, then there's going to be a point to your faith where you're going struggle and you're going to struggle hard.

I could say how there's so much evidence to so many things (like the Creation, the Flood [that even Babylonians wrote about!], Jesus dying on the cross), but this is where blind faith or having no faith is definitely something we need to evaluate and seriously think about as to what is the TRUTH.

[Scott Weber]

If God created the earth, then why NOT have the earth be created in literally seven days (Scott, in The Bible, there's no way you can misinterpret that, read the Creation account in Genesis), or Satan tempting Adam and Eve. All of the creation accounts are SO essential to faith that we cannot discredit them as something other than fact, cause if you're shaky on that, then there's going to be a point to your faith where you're going struggle and you're going to struggle hard.

It's not about misinterpretation, I just don't believe the earth was created in 7 literal days. I believe that God created the Earth in stages, that those "days" were actually thousands or millions of years apart. I believe in some extent of science...carbon dating, dinosaur fossils, there is evidence to show that the earth is millions of years old, not several thousand as the Bible would date it. But that's my personal opinion, and in the end, it's all just details. All that matters is John 3:16 - the rest is just details. I couldn't disagree with you more about my questioning of the Creation - in fact, I take some offense to it. Who are you to judge another man's faith because his beliefs differ from yours? How is that showing love to your brother in Christ? Some of the strongest Christians I know agree with my stance on the creation. Much of the Old Testament is metaphorical. Noah's Ark did not have 2 of EVERY animal on the face of the Earth. There are numerous examples of this. All of them provide an important message, but there is no reason to take man's accounts of history as pure truth. I still can't believe that you just called me out on my faith. I would never talk to a fellow believer, or anyone like that.

[Gabe Gross]

I think the fact that slowly, day by day, intelligent design has been proven more right than evolution is making it very easy, scientifically, to believe that Christianity makes perfect sense.

In my mind, heart and logic, I truly believe Jesus was the real deal. There are many reasons and facts leading to this.

I don't necessarily believe Scott Weber has it on the nose in this conversation, but I give everyone props for talking about it.

The way I see it, is why NOT have all these things possible? Why not have a faith in something that's not as crazy as saying that this Earth evolved from a speck of dirt 1,000,000,000 years ago (something coming from nothing?). I'd rather put my stock in God, who actually CREATED it.

If God created the earth, then why NOT have the earth be created in literally seven days (Scott, in The Bible, there's no way you can misinterpret that, read the Creation account in Genesis), or Satan tempting Adam and Eve. All of the creation accounts are SO essential to faith that we cannot discredit them as something other than fact, cause if you're shaky on that, then there's going to be a point to your faith where you're going struggle and you're going to struggle hard.

I could say how there's so much evidence to so many things (like the Creation, the Flood [that even Babylonians wrote about!], Jesus dying on the cross), but this is where blind faith or having no faith is definitely something we need to evaluate and seriously think about as to what is the TRUTH.

dude not cool

i believe that a homosexual can go to Heaven...wanna judge my faith too?

[Allular]

It's not about misinterpretation, I just don't believe the earth was created in 7 literal days. I believe that God created the Earth in stages, that those "days" were actually thousands or millions of years apart. I believe in some extent of science...carbon dating, dinosaur fossils, there is evidence to show that the earth is millions of years old, not several thousand as the Bible would date it. But that's my personal opinion, and in the end, it's all just details. All that matters is John 3:16 - the rest is just details. I couldn't disagree with you more about my questioning of the Creation - in fact, I take some offense to it. Who are you to judge another man's faith because his beliefs differ from yours? How is that showing love to your brother in Christ? Some of the strongest Christians I know agree with my stance on the creation. Much of the Old Testament is metaphorical. Noah's Ark did not have 2 of EVERY animal on the face of the Earth. There are numerous examples of this. All of them provide an important message, but there is no reason to take man's accounts of history as pure truth. I still can't believe that you just called me out on my faith. I would never talk to a fellow believer, or anyone like that.

Judging was not exactly my point or nor it wasn't my heart on the situation. But I'm sorry and I apologize for saying such things that could be interpreted as so. I'm sure me just waking up from a nap didn't help with being clear headed but seriously dude, I apologize.

I just really want you to know what I feel like I believe is what God feels like he's shown me. I really shouldn't have called it out like that but I just think this could lead to some really cool and encouraging conversation.

My church has done some REALLY awesome lessons on The Creation and honestly, it's anchored my faith to the point that nothing in this world could break it. There's strong evidence leaning towards the Biblical creation and I just want you to know that and I pray that you check it out if you want. www.saltcityrock.org. The teachings are called The Creation Series.

[Gabe Gross]

Judging was not exactly my point or nor it wasn't my heart on the situation. But I'm sorry and I apologize for saying such things that could be interpreted as so. I'm sure me just waking up from a nap didn't help with being clear headed but seriously dude, I apologize.

I'd love to talk more about it but not on here. AIM here we go.

i want in on this conversation

[lightcollapse]

k, back from dinner.

i still don't believe how people have been saying that since its not right for me to believe in god right now, i will have eternal suffering.

anyway,
thinking god created adam and eve, evolution is disregarded, they began with full intellegence ate apples from talking snakes and decided to wear clothing makes NO sense to me. but as long as it doesn't have any negative effects on you, whatever.

[Scott Weber]

Judging was not exactly my point or nor it wasn't my heart on the situation. But I'm sorry and I apologize for saying such things that could be interpreted as so. I'm sure me just waking up from a nap didn't help with being clear headed but seriously dude, I apologize.

I'd love to talk more about it but not on here. AIM here we go.
That's fine. I'm currently in studio doing a radio show for the next hour, but tommorow would be a possibility. Whenever you want to talk is fine with me: AIM: snWeebs.

P.S. Apology accepted - no worries.

[Allular]

dude not cool

i believe that a homosexual can go to Heaven...wanna judge my faith too?

I don't know how this is going to make anything better by assuming what my faith entails.

If a homosexual is right with God in terms of accepting Jesus then it looks like we agree with each other.

[lightcollapse]

dude not cool

i believe that a homosexual can go to Heaven...wanna judge my faith too?

yes, jesus hates you.

[lightcollapse]

I don't know how this is going to make anything better by assuming what my faith entails.

If a homosexual is right with God in terms of accepting Jesus then it looks like we agree with each other.

i don't accept jesus because i'm jewish, i guess i'm fucked for eternity.

[Gabe Gross]

k, back from dinner.

i still don't believe how people have been saying that since its not right for me to believe in god right now, i will have eternal suffering.

anyway,
thinking god created adam and eve, evolution is disregarded, they began with full intellegence ate apples from talking snakes and decided to wear clothing makes NO sense to me. but as long as it doesn't have any negative effects on you, whatever.

you're going around in circles

i think its more important to find out where people are coming from and why they believe what they believe, whether its a faith in a higher being or its evolution or whether they choose to believe nothing at all. from there i think we can start understanding each other. then maybe, just maybe there will be some disagreed understanding.

[Allular]

k, back from dinner.

i still don't believe how people have been saying that since its not right for me to believe in god right now, i will have eternal suffering.

anyway,
thinking god created adam and eve, evolution is disregarded, they began with full intellegence ate apples from talking snakes and decided to wear clothing makes NO sense to me. but as long as it doesn't have any negative effects on you, whatever.

Yeah, and that's fine.

I mean.. if you want to get to the BIG picture, just think of how many other faiths believe that about you AND me when it comes to eternal enlightenment/suffering. I used to be Mormon and they believe now that I denied their church, I'm going to Hell, so we can definitely agree on something. :)

[Gabe Gross]

Please AIM me guys....i would love to talk about this directly, especially Allular

AIM: thepenmaywaltz

[Allular]

i don't accept jesus because i'm jewish, i guess i'm fucked for eternity.

If that's what you believe then that's cool. I'm not here to pick fights. I'm pretty sure you believe I've got things wrong and I accept that and it doesn't bother me at all.

[lightcollapse]

If that's what you believe then that's cool. I'm not here to pick fights. I'm pretty sure you believe I've got things wrong and I accept that and it doesn't bother me at all.

no, i really don't think you have anything wrong. i think you take scripture too literally, but thats just my opinion. i don't have a problem with what faith you chose as long as your comfortable with it.

its just, people who think their religion is the only path and believe that people who do not follow their path will have "eternal suffering" or whatever are ridiculously ignorant IMO.

[lightcollapse]

Please AIM me guys....i would love to talk about this directly, especially Allular

AIM: thepenmaywaltz

aha, your last name is gross.

[Allular]

no, i really don't think you have anything wrong. i think you take scripture too literally, but thats just my opinion. i don't have a problem with what faith you chose as long as your comfortable with it.

its just, people who think their religion is the only path and believe that people who do not follow their path will have "eternal suffering" or whatever are ridiculously ignorant IMO.

Well, y'know, I guess that's the thing about faith and life in general. This life is freakin' SMALL compared to the time that eternity COULD be or even the age of this earth. Everyone just wants to get it right.

I mean, if you follow the Jewish belief (which I don't know if you do or not) then you believe something I obviously don't and you yourself have a faith in a direct path. But I could be wrong on that. *shrug*

[lightcollapse]

Well, y'know, I guess that's the thing about faith and life in general. This life is freakin' SMALL compared to the time that eternity COULD be or even the age of this earth. Everyone just wants to get it right.

I mean, if you follow the Jewish belief (which I don't know if you do or not) then you believe something I obviously don't and you yourself have a faith in a direct path. But I could be wrong on that. *shrug*

dude, i have no fucking idea what i believe. right now, its not a part of my life, and faith will come into my life when or if i need it. right now, i don't really believe in a god because i don't feel a connection to one. if i do, then my beliefs will change. i don't think anything is ever set in stone.

[Scott Weber]

Well, y'know, I guess that's the thing about faith and life in general. This life is freakin' SMALL compared to the time that eternity COULD be or even the age of this earth. Everyone just wants to get it right.

Our lives in general are one in the same, but there's variations. Our lives general are one in the same - difference of opinion.

[Gabe Gross]

Because I'm a Christian, do I use God as a crutch? Throw me out some answers

[epribil]

so i have been reading through alot of these posts, and i am just amazed at the things people have said. i just want to point out a few things, just that the people who put god off until they need him, they are called the religious, who are people who use faith as a tool. they do not seek god because he is truth, they use the law ( jewish law) as a tool. christ was very upset at the people who used the word as a tool. and you never know when you die, which makes putting of god stupid. "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you, matthew 23:7, meaning, hey you decided to not accept the gift, and receive it with faith, (dietrich bonhoeffer defines faith as both works, and belief), and i knew your heart, but you did not seek, and know about mine. and also i think that people who talk about what they know, need to realize that if god does exsist, he is boundless, meaning, not even all the science, books, personal encounters, can reveal his wholeness. but that also, reading about a persons experiances reveals alot. i would suggest to anyone that they should read bonhoffer, cs lewis's mere christianity ( which is written from the stance of a non beliver for the first half) and read either searching for god knows what, or blue like jazz by donald miller. there are tons more books. also a few things about science. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein "I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details." , i also heard a quote where he talked about knowing science is knowing the mind of god. science has also theroized that there is probably soemthing that exsists outside of time in space. which would explain how god is everywhere and knows everything, because he is not held back by time, he is both present past, and future. and to sum things up, yes i belive in god, and i dont belive in destiny, i belive it is known, and that god has a plan for me. also whats up with the law's of nature, you know, newtons laws, i mean they are real, but cant a law be broken?

[Allular]

dude, i have no fucking idea what i believe. right now, its not a part of my life, and faith will come into my life when or if i need it. right now, i don't really believe in a god because i don't feel a connection to one. if i do, then my beliefs will change. i don't think anything is ever set in stone.

I understand how you feel, I've defintely been there myself.

[kittypants]

it's a great article. i just love it when artists who have a deep, living relationship with the Savior let that permeate their music....regardless of the genre though there are some neato ones in indie rock...ie sufjan and pedro the lion (david bazan)

[Allular]

Our lives in general are one in the same, but there's variations. Our lives general are one in the same - difference of opinion.

Duuuude.. MxPx. haha

[XmorganX88]

Scott - I couldn't agree with you more. Everything you have said from the hypocritical church people to gods blessing in your life is all true.

lightcollapse - If you think god is fake I reccomend you attend a local church and try it out. Iyou are brave enough, you could go out on a limb and accept jesus. See what happens then. I'm not having a shot at you mate, im just suggesting some options.

[nicolerork]

Why I Oppose the Christian Music Industry

(written by a good friend of mine)

Don't get me wrong. A few years ago I was excited to discover that "Christians could rock just as hard as everyone else." That we could hold our own on the music front. Unfortunately, I've discovered that my initial feelings were misled. Misled by an Industry that ultimately puts restraints on the faith it supposedly promotes.

There are a plethora of reasons a Christian music advocate might state in defense of the Christian Music Industry. Reasons such as the glorification of God, "safe" and non-offensive listening, and styles of music that parallel the mainstream usually come to mind. However, there are just as many points against this billion dollar industry and it's said music, and these grievances far outweigh the positive side.

My top complaint is the need to label music as "Christian." If a Christian is composing it, shouldn't it reflect that naturally? At least in some aspects. And if not all the time, then fine. And if all the time, then fine. By categorizing and labeling themselves as "Christian" or "worship" music, they isolate themselves. They hold up a blaring neon sign that proclaims "Unbelievers, STAY OUT!" It's like a club. It's not an outward ministry as they'd like to think. They minister only to themselves and others like them.

Another reason people generally like the Christian music scene is because any artist you pick from the batch will be safe to listen to. I think folk-recording artist Shannon Stephens sums it up best:

" Honestly, I feel that the Christian music market was created out of a need for safety by separation. People wanted to know that the music they were listening to would not contaminate their souls or the souls of their children. The truth is that we are not contaminated by our culture, but by our own hearts. I do think it's important to feed the fire as little as possible, but shutting out the world and creating a safe subculture is not what Christ commanded us to do. Rather than making absolute judgments about Christian bands or labels, I try to take them on an individual basis. Sometimes people ask me if I play "Christian music" – I don't even know what to say. I'm a Christian, and I play music, but is it all praise and worship? No. I feel more comfortable outside of the box, where things are more dangerous and often times more real. This is where God utilizes my honesty to be a light in the darkness."

Point taken.

I don't think it's neccessary to have an alternative act for every sort of music out there. Like when people call Relient K the "Christian Blink-182." How do you think the band members feel about that? A few years ago at my school we sat through a presentation called "True Lies." After the presentation we were given a card that listed all sorts of music and bands in the mainstream and next to each category was a list of Christian counter-parts.

This leads me into my next point. What happened to creativity and originality in Christian music? Christians were some of the forerunners in this kind of music. That's pretty much out the window. Every worship band sounds the same, every Christian singer has similar hooks. There are a few signs of life out there, but they are few and far between. Bands like Starflyer 59, The Innocence Mission, and the Danielson Famile still hold on to their shreds of dignity. And that's an impressive feat, considering the stereotype they face as Christians. To be brutally honest, most bands and artists that categorize themselves as "Christian" and "worship" these days are nothing new, nothing exciting, and not that good. And the artists that are good and do label themselves this way are being monopolized by the Industry.

And that brings me to the Industry, itself. How have we let the Church get to this point? We have artists expressing themselves and praising God. Ok. Fine. And then these same artists sell thousands of albums, charge fans money to come "worship" with them, charge money for fans to get into their fanclub and meet them, sell merchandise in the back of churches, and now possess a heck of a lot more money than they need. Sounds very Christian to me. Didn't Jesus cast the moneychangers OUT of the temple? Oh, but we sure did find a way to bring them back in. And it all seems legal, doesn't it? With any industry comes corporate greed. We've commercialized Christianity. Congrats, everyone. Now go buy cds and self-help books at the local Christian bookstore.

What is Christianity? That's for you to figure out. Think good and hard about it. And then think about this Christian Music Industry. Is it fulfilling the requirements? Is it reaching out to those who don't know Christ? No. Because these acts label themselves as "Christian", nobody but Christians come in to listen to them. They can't reach out, not when they're isolating themselves like this. So when these Christians artists form bands and make good music and DON'T label it as Christian, it's a good thing. They're not betraying their faith, they're not disrespecting the Church, they're taking the Gospel where it might not have gone otherwise.

I admit, I used to shop solely at the Christian bookstore for records. I used to be a fan of Pop-Christianity. Now I know better. I know you have to dig for the good, worthwhile music, even if it is put out independently or on tiny labels. I know the local Christian radio station is biased beyond belief. I know a lot of Christians have talent, but they're looked down upon by their brethren because they won't classify themselves and put themselves into neat little boxes. I know these things. You can know them, too.

[nicolerork]

That's the reason I don't attend church currently. I've never found a church that wasn't full of hypocritical, fake, and corrupt people. I choose to express my faith in other ways.

Church is lame.

[robdobi]

what i want to know is where are all the jews?

sure there is matisyahu in hip hop, but c'mon!