The 'America is a Christian Nation' Fallacy

[saysmydoctor]

Discuss this stupid argument of the revisionist historians.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

someone post the text from that treaty where one of the founders says america is not a christian nation

[yves.]

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[saysmydoctor]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0f/Article_11.GIF

The Treaty of Tripoli, ratified after the First Barbary War

[Animalhill]

THANK YOU. I feel like more than a few people on this forum need to see this in writing.

[lfdfforever]

watched jesus camp last night. this was discussed a little.

[loveisdead]

Treaty of Tripoli makes this argument not even worth discussing. It's pretty clearly written.

[saysmydoctor]

Some have tried to dismiss the document as out of touch with modernity. But yet the Constitution should be followed to the t.

[loveisdead]

And those are the same that use the bible for their arguments, as if that isn't completely out of touch with modernity.

[Machu505]

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save.

-Thomas Jefferson

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law.

-Thomas Jefferson

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.

-Benjamin Franklin

[neo506]

I think the treaty makes it a pretty open and shut case.

I'd like to add this Immortal Technique line though:

But this aint a Christian nation, mothafucka please
America never taught me to turn the other cheek

[GiggsOho]

lol at Immortal Technique being lumped in with TJ and BF. That's gotta be a first.

[ascitiesburn101]

I don't believe this is true at all. Most aren't what would be considered true Christians anyway. I'm not religious, but even I think Weekend Warriors of the church variety are taking it for granted and completely uncommitted. Giving the US a poor reputation

[x togepi x]

it's important to note that not only was the treaty passed, it was also passed unanimously.

[SpeedshifterNC]

ascitiesburn101 has a good point..many weekend warriors are poser Christians...like me..but we're still Christians and going to heaven..Most Christians take advantage of the sacrifice Jesus made..but as long as we don't deny Him, He still loves us..thats the point I have to make. I may be the worst Christian, hypocrite, sinner in this world, but He still loves me and I know that He died for me and you...all of you. The peace of knowing that in the back of my mind overshadows the harsh reality that he took my wife from me over a month ago..for reasons I'll never accept until I see Him. Should I be a better Christian?...yes..the fact that I'm not doesn't make me less of a Christian. I've seen all this world has to offer and I've seen all the shit in this world that's made Christianity look bad..if you can get past that shit...actual Chistianity is the only answer for this harsh cruel world.

[GeeBee]

I love how some are ALL about getting the "religious wackos" out of government in the Middle East, and replacing them with "strictly secular" democracies. All the while the same people spouting this idea out of one side of their mouth, spout in support of a Christian theocracy out of the other side.

[yves.]

newsflash: CHRISTIANITY IS NOT THE ANSWER TO ALL THE PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD.

[TK]

I've never understood how people can have this belief. The majority of the people I know believe the founding fathers were Christians, not Deists, and that they never spoke a negative thing about Christianity. It's baffling how widely this is believed.

[Machu505]

I've never understood how people can have this belief. The majority of the people I know believe the founding fathers were Christians, not Deists, and that they never spoke a negative thing about Christianity. It's baffling how widely this is believed.

I would blame this on your location.

[TK]

I would blame this on your location.

As would I. Oklahoma's the center of the Bible Belt, and perhaps the scariest political beliefs are here. I would hate this state so bad if everything wasn't really cheap.

[Machu505]

You guys have Sonic too. That's a plus.

[TK]

You guys have Sonic too. That's a plus.

You guys don't have Sonics? Quiktrips are the best things we have that other states don't.

[Machu505]

You guys don't have Sonics? Quiktrips are the best things we have that other states don't.

The only functioning Sonic is in Huntington, which is a 45 minute drive away. Another is currently under construction in St. Albans, which is closer.

The only thing I ever enjoyed when going to visit my brother in Knoxville (thank God he lives in Cambridge now) was Sonic. I love it.

[TK]

The only functioning Sonic is in Huntington, which is a 45 minute drive away. Another is currently under construction in St. Albans, which is closer.

The only thing I ever enjoyed when going to visit my brother in Knoxville (thank God he lives in Cambridge now) was Sonic. I love it.

Ha, I actually do not like Sonic that much. Maybe because I've had friends who've worked there before and give me a bunch of reasons why not to eat there.

[Machu505]

Ha, I actually do not like Sonic that much. Maybe because I've had friends who've worked there before and give me a bunch of reasons why not to eat there.
Blah blah blah I don't wanna hear it. Do not ruin my happiness.

[TK]

Blah blah blah I don't wanna hear it. Do not ruin my happiness.

Hahaha. So are there any good places to eat out in West Virginia that Oklahoma, or most of the country, doesn't have?

[Machu505]

Hahaha. So are there any good places to eat out in West Virginia that Oklahoma, or most of the country, doesn't have?
Not any chain restaurants. Though there is this drive-in place in Lewisburg called Jim's Drive-In. It's relative owned and make great burgers and fried pickles.

\shameless plug

[whataclush]

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save.

-Thomas Jefferson

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law.

-Thomas Jefferson

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.

-Benjamin Franklin


This/ Truth/ WIN/ FACT

[TK]

Not any chain restaurants. Though there is this drive-in place in Lewisburg called Jim's Drive-In. It's relative owned and make great burgers and fried pickles.

\shameless plug

Hmm, I'm planning on visiting all 48 contiguous states on a road trip this summer, so who knows, maybe I'll stop by there because of your shameless plug. Lol.

[The Personist]

<3 Thomas Jefferson

[Machu505]

Hmm, I'm planning on visiting all 48 contiguous states on a road trip this summer, so who knows, maybe I'll stop by there because of your shameless plug. Lol.
There's not many things to see here haha. The only cool (and by "cool" I mean "my nerdy definition of cool") non-natural thing is the Capitol. But the scenery is great. There is literally nowhere where you cannot see mountains here. Quite beautiful, if I do say so myself.

[Machu505]

<3 Thomas Jefferson
Have you read the Jefferson Bible?

[The Personist]

Have you read the Jefferson Bible?

It makes me lol.

His argument that black people are a separate species is unfortunate and ridiculous, but he seriously was a brilliant man and I have a lot of respect for him, even if I think deism is kinda silly.

Best part about deism is Voltaire.

[registered]

While all the quotes and treaties are fantastic and America was never directly a Christian nation, you cant argue that there hasnt always been a huge, atleast very indirect, influence from Christians or Christian will.

So, really, I find this thread full of pettiness and a way for you guys to express your rebel opinion on Christianity.

[Gumbyjag]

i always learn something new in the politics forum, and this thread shows no difference.

[paper halo]

While all the quotes and treaties are fantastic and America was never directly a Christian nation, you cant argue that there hasnt always been a huge, atleast very indirect, influence from Christians or Christian will.

So, really, I find this thread full of pettiness and a way for you guys to express your rebel opinion on Christianity.

Way to miss the point.

[registered]

Way to miss the point.
yes, yes, I get the thread is about whether or not America was founded by Christians to be a Christian nation. I was noting that besides those wonderful quotes and treaties (during an era when we were making wonderful treaties to native americans that we obviously kept, right?) that paper and practice were much different. Regardless of how many things you can quote and point to, it is undeniable that Churches had and continue to have a massive influence in the nation. Im not saying we are a Christian nation, I just found it funny that everyone is acting like separation of church and state actually exist.

[Regards]

The Mayflower Compact:

In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, etc.


Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, convenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due Submission and Obedience.

In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscibed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620.

Edit: I should make it known that as a Christian, I do not believe that this nation is a Christian nation. I do find this interesting though.

[saysmydoctor]

The Mayflower Compact:



Edit: I should make it known that as a Christian, I do not believe that this nation is a Christian nation. I do find this interesting though.
Not a legal document like the Treaty of Tripoli.

[saysmydoctor]

While all the quotes and treaties are fantastic and America was never directly a Christian nation, you cant argue that there hasnt always been a huge, atleast very indirect, influence from Christians or Christian will.

So, really, I find this thread full of pettiness and a way for you guys to express your rebel opinion on Christianity.
Our basic societal morals, true, but the 10 Commandments are near universal and therefore condemnable. Beyond that though, the Christian faiths should not be used beyond that. That's what we are arguing.
yes, yes, I get the thread is about whether or not America was founded by Christians to be a Christian nation. I was noting that besides those wonderful quotes and treaties (during an era when we were making wonderful treaties to native americans that we obviously kept, right?) that paper and practice were much different. Regardless of how many things you can quote and point to, it is undeniable that Churches had and continue to have a massive influence in the nation. Im not saying we are a Christian nation, I just found it funny that everyone is acting like separation of church and state actually exist.
This is a pretty shitty justification for trying to question the basis of this legal document. By your logic, we should stop following the Constitution, because it was written in the same era/

[timbedinosaur]

Pretty sure that God is never mentioned in any of the major founding documents. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[The Personist]

While all the quotes and treaties are fantastic and America was never directly a Christian nation, you cant argue that there hasnt always been a huge, atleast very indirect, influence from Christians or Christian will.

So, really, I find this thread full of pettiness and a way for you guys to express your rebel opinion on Christianity.

Question: What if I'm Christian and still find the notion of a Christian nation completely laughable?

Oh wait. Being Christian can ONLY entail fundamentalism, right? There's only ONE way to ascribe to that faith, so the fact that I can denounce the utterly laughable drivel put forth by such idiots as Jerry Falwell or, well, anyone who says AMERICA IS A CHRISTIAN NATION GUYZZZ makes me a poser CHristian, right? Let's ignore theologians who reject that view, philosophers who reject that view, and the fact that ANYONE WITH A BRAIN REJECTS THE CHRISTIAN NATION IDIOCY.

My bad. I didn't mean to be a poser Christian.

[GeeBee]

<3 Thomas Jefferson

Appearance of ArtfullyAborted on thread = thread thereby ruined.

Pack it up folks. Interesting debate has now been neutralized.

[saysmydoctor]

I'm sure there will be a winding discussion about Ayn Rand, Kirkegaard, and metaphysics.

[GeeBee]

While all the quotes and treaties are fantastic and America was never directly a Christian nation, you cant argue that there hasnt always been a huge, atleast very indirect, influence from Christians or Christian will.

So, really, I find this thread full of pettiness and a way for you guys to express your rebel opinion on Christianity.

Yeah, after centuries of Christianity dominating the Western hemisphere, and its fundamentalists ignoring/contributing to some of its gravest problems, there's really no call for a valid critique of an unfounded ideal that perpetuates itself endlessly in the United States. How inappropriate of us.

GTFO.

[GeeBee]

The Mayflower Compact:



Edit: I should make it known that as a Christian, I do not believe that this nation is a Christian nation. I do find this interesting though.

Mayflower Compact was long before the official establishment of this "nation", hence, irrelevant to this debate.

[GeeBee]

Question: What if I'm Christian and still find the notion of a Christian nation completely laughable?

Oh wait. Being Christian can ONLY entail fundamentalism, right? There's only ONE way to ascribe to that faith, so the fact that I can denounce the utterly laughable drivel put forth by such idiots as Jerry Falwell or, well, anyone who says AMERICA IS A CHRISTIAN NATION GUYZZZ makes me a poser CHristian, right? Let's ignore theologians who reject that view, philosophers who reject that view, and the fact that ANYONE WITH A BRAIN REJECTS THE CHRISTIAN NATION IDIOCY.

My bad. I didn't mean to be a poser Christian.

Depending on what subjective way you define "fundamentalism", but I'm pretty sure there are certain beliefs that are central to calling oneself a "Christian", and I'm pretty sure you don't hold them/distort them completely.

EDIT: ......but for the love of God (or lack thereof), please don't hijack this thread with your nonsense. Try to keep your rantings on philosophy confined to a thread where they're relevant (if useless).

[The Personist]

Depending on what subjective way you define "fundamentalism", but I'm pretty sure there are certain beliefs that are central to calling oneself a "Christian", and I'm pretty sure you don't hold them/distort them completely.

EDIT: ......but for the love of God (or lack thereof), please don't hijack this thread with your nonsense. Try to keep your rantings on philosophy confined to a thread where they're relevant (if useless).

LOL my rant was pertinent.

[GeeBee]

Not really.

[The Personist]

LOL yes really. I was saying it's perfectly valid to reject insane fundamentalism and still be a Christian.

[TeamAllison]

Best part about deism is Voltaire.

Best part of Voltaire is Candide.

[The Personist]

Best part of Voltaire is Candide.

Candide is sheer genius.

Also, Voltaire has some of the best freakin' quotes ever. He was such a sarcastic bastard, and I love him for it.

The whole enlightened absolutism thing was a shame, though.

[Adeniz19]

but, it says "in god we trust" on our money!

/sarcasm

[jawstheme]

Best part of Voltaire is Candide.

Yes. Such a funny book.

[GeeBee]

Candide is sheer genius.

Also, Voltaire has some of the best freakin' quotes ever. He was such a sarcastic bastard, and I love him for it.

The whole enlightened absolutism thing was a shame, though.

Still valid? Still on topic? Your inanity is subtle...it works one post at a time, and before you know it, a thread about religion veers into a thread about metaphysical philosophy....

So back to the Founding Fathers...

[The Personist]

Still valid? Still on topic? Your inanity is subtle...it works one post at a time, and before you know it, a thread about religion veers into a thread about metaphysical philosophy....

So back to the Founding Fathers...

What are you talking about? Voltaire has nothing to do with what you're bitching about.

[GeeBee]

What are you talking about? Voltaire has nothing to do with what you're bitching about.

No, Voltaire has nothing to do with the fallacy of America being a Christian nation.

[The Personist]

No, Voltaire has nothing to do with the fallacy of America being a Christian nation.

But he has to do with deism, which is central to the point of the thread.

[TeamAllison]

Candide is sheer genius.

Also, Voltaire has some of the best freakin' quotes ever. He was such a sarcastic bastard, and I love him for it.

The whole enlightened absolutism thing was a shame, though.

It's the best of all possible worlds!

[The Personist]

It's the best of all possible worlds!

I dunno, I do like divine absolutism a bit better. It makes me sleep better at night knowing that God was all like "this guy's your guy."

[TeamAllison]

I dunno, I do like divine absolutism a bit better. It makes me sleep better at night knowing that God was all like "this guy's your guy."

Sometimes I wish my life were a cheesy movie, and when things get really shitty, deus ex machina kicks in.

[The Personist]

Sometimes I wish my life were a cheesy movie, and when things get really shitty, deus ex machina kicks in.

i wish my life were a cheesy movie and i could have a bad British accent and still attract girls like Hugh Grant.

[saysmydoctor]

Do you like Ayn Rand--am I right in assuming you find her novels good?

[Bruised26]

I don't know why it would be considered a Christian nation. Freedom of religion is one of the main values of the country, and to make Christian the official religion doesnt seem quite fair to those who arent. Maybe some people just think that since a large percentage of the population is christian, they choose to refer to it as a "Christian Nation."
I am an avid Christian, btw, but labelling this "free country" as "christian" is not fair to those who arent.

[TeamAllison]

Do you like Ayn Rand--am I right in assuming you find her novels good?

Dude, the Fountainhead changed my life, no joke. Howard Roark is my hero.

[TeamAllison]

i wish my life were a cheesy movie and i could have a bad British accent and still attract girls like Hugh Grant.

I wish my life were a cheesy movie where Death Cab would by my soundtrack and the man that I loved wouldn't be an extra.

Oh, and that Bruce Willis and I would fuck shit up.

[saysmydoctor]

Dude, the Fountainhead changed my life, no joke. Howard Roark is my hero.
Terrible book.

[TeamAllison]

Terrible book.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?! Hmmm, that's so strange, everyone I've talked to about it loved the book. What do you hate about it?

[saysmydoctor]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?! Hmmm, that's so strange, everyone I've talked to about it loved the book. What do you hate about it?
Objectivism is silly.

[Adeniz19]

Still valid? Still on topic? Your inanity is subtle...it works one post at a time, and before you know it, a thread about religion veers into a thread about metaphysical philosophy....

So back to the Founding Fathers...lol. yea, this thread has gone a bit off topic with all this "cheesy movie" crap

[ryanhartkopf]

Do you like Ayn Rand--am I right in assuming you find her novels good?
Ayn Rand is pretty good, I enjoyed Anthem. Which surprises me because I don't agree with secular humanism at all.

But back to the original topic, America is not and never was a Christian nation. I say this as a devout Christian.

[GeeBee]

Ayn Rand is pretty good, I enjoyed Anthem. Which surprises me because I don't agree with secular humanism at all.

But back to the original topic, America is not and never was a Christian nation. I say this as a devout Christian.

Secular humanism embraces the very values Christ espouses, without pretending they can't exist without him, so I'm not sure what's wrong with secular humanism.
If anything, I think a nation guided by secular humanist principles would please the most number of parties, religious or otherwise.

[ryanhartkopf]

Secular humanism embraces the very values Christ espouses, without pretending they can't exist without him, so I'm not sure what's wrong with secular humanism.
If anything, I think a nation guided by secular humanist principles would please the most number of parties, religious or otherwise.
Nah, not really. Secular humanism encourages individual morality, which could be anything a person wants as long as they're not forcing anyone else to comply, hurting someone or encroaching on their rights; "live and let live", essentially. Christianity has one set of values that is determined by only God.

[GeeBee]

Nah, not really. Secular humanism encourages individual morality, which could be anything a person wants as long as they're not forcing anyone else to comply, hurting someone or encroaching on their rights; "live and let live", essentially. Christianity has one set of values that is determined by only God.

Ok, you apparently know nothing whatsoever about secular humanism. Thanks for playing. Join us in the religion thread if you wish to be further instructed on the matter.

[happie]

im not christian

[GeeBee]

im not christian

Congrats.

[bung]

Terrible book.

As far as the literary world is concerned, yes--it isn't considered to be very well written. Largely because everything about it is so blatant and there isn't a touch of subtlety. It's also true that objectivism completely fails to grasp human nature, which makes it virtually impossible in practice.

However, that being said, it's still one of my favorite novels ever, if not my most favorite. Why? Because it's quite possibly the most inspirational story ever written. It's also very difficult to find someone who's read it that wasn't influenced in some way by it. Whatever a person thinks about the novel as a whole, it's certainly not one that will be easily forgotten.

[GeeBee]

As far as the literary world is concerned, yes--it isn't considered to be very well written. Largely because everything about it is so blatant and there isn't a touch of subtlety. It's also true that objectivism completely fails to grasp human nature, which makes it virtually impossible in practice.

However, that being said, it's still one of my favorite novels ever, if not my most favorite. Why? Because it's quite possibly the most inspirational story ever written. It's also very difficult to find someone who's read it that wasn't influenced in some way by it. Whatever a person thinks about the novel as a whole, it's certainly not one that will be easily forgotten.

I guess I'm completely turned off to Ayn Rand because her works have spawned a new breed of neo-conservative libertarians the likes of Glenn Beck who are as fanatical and utopian as the Marxists they so despise. Granted, that has nothing to do with the literary value of the books, just sayin'.

[saysmydoctor]

As far as the literary world is concerned, yes--it isn't considered to be very well written. Largely because everything about it is so blatant and there isn't a touch of subtlety. It's also true that objectivism completely fails to grasp human nature, which makes it virtually impossible in practice.

However, that being said, it's still one of my favorite novels ever, if not my most favorite. Why? Because it's quite possibly the most inspirational story ever written. It's also very difficult to find someone who's read it that wasn't influenced in some way by it. Whatever a person thinks about the novel as a whole, it's certainly not one that will be easily forgotten.
It is a terrible book, Ayn Rand is a terrible writer, her philosophical beliefs are batshit nuts, and she tries really hard to come off as intellectual and she is really just stupid. Also, ethical egoism is stupid as hell.

Anything that argues human nature is objective is completely naive and ridiculous. And considering her novels are based off these lopsided concepts, they just read nonsensical.

[bung]

I guess I'm completely turned off to Ayn Rand because her works have spawned a new breed of neo-conservative libertarians the likes of Glenn Beck who are as fanatical and utopian as the Marxists they so despise. Granted, that has nothing to do with the literary value of the books, just sayin'.

Very true. Atlas Shrugged (and I think the Fountainhead, too, to a lesser extent) has been on Amazon's bestseller list for months and months.

Personally, her works did help to influence a lot of my libertarian beliefs (but I consider myself a libertarian Democrat, just for the record). I actually didn't even know such a position existed until a few months back. I mean, my beliefs always aligned with the position, I just didn't know there was a name for it.

[GeeBee]

Very true. Atlas Shrugged (and I think the Fountainhead, too, to a lesser extent) has been on Amazon's bestseller list for months and months.

Personally, her works did help to influence a lot of my libertarian beliefs (but I consider myself a libertarian Democrat, just for the record). I actually didn't even know such a position existed until a few months back. I mean, my beliefs always aligned with the position, I just didn't know there was a name for it.

You and I are on similar political footing.

[bung]

It is a terrible book, Ayn Rand is a terrible writer, her philosophical beliefs are batshit nuts, and she tries really hard to come off as intellectual and she is really just stupid. Also, ethical egoism is stupid as hell.

Anything that argues human nature is objective is completely naive and ridiculous. And considering her novels are based off these lopsided concepts, they just read nonsensical.

I already said her objectivist philosophy is pretty much bullshit. No need to reiterate that point. I'd hardly call her a terrible writer, though. Obviously nowhere even near the best, but I've read a lot worse writers. I don't praise the novel for any of its literary aspects, nor for really any of the character interactions because a lot of them just play off as if the people talking are machines. Still, however, there are many great passages from her works. Like I said, I just enjoyed it because it was inspiring.

Of course, you describe yourself as very liberal, so....

[saysmydoctor]

I already said her objectivist philosophy is pretty much bullshit. No need to reiterate that point. I'd hardly call her a terrible writer, though. Obviously nowhere even near the best, but I've read a lot worse writers. I don't praise the novel for any of it's literary aspects, nor for really any of the character interactions because a lot of them just play off as if the people talking are machines. Still, however, there are many great passages from her works. Like I said, I just enjoyed it because it was inspiring.

Of course, you describe yourself as very liberal, so....
Yeah, so I find her ridiculous. :shrug:

I don't understand how some can be a proponent of individual rights and equality and then be a proponent of something as unequal as capitalism.

[bung]

Yeah, so I find her ridiculous. :shrug:

I don't understand how some can be a proponent of individual rights and equality and then be a proponent of something as unequal as capitalism.

Well if you define equality on the basis of how much money a person makes, then of course capitalism will produce inequalities. Libertarian thought defines equality on the basis that, as human beings, we all are guaranteed the same rights without regard to gender, sex, race, political affiliation, religious affiliation, etc. These rights, however, in no way guarantee that you will receive a sizable income just by existing, nor should they.

Individual rights guarantee a person to do and act as they wish with the resources they have available to them, granted they do not infringe on anyone else's right to do the same. Although I don't believe it practical or desirable to live in a purely capitalistic or libertarian society, it's definitely true that the further a nation moves away from libertarianism the less individual rights its citizens will retain. I also believe social rights are far more important than economic rights, but you don't seem to be giving economic rights any consideration at all.

[saysmydoctor]

Distribution of wealth leads to class stratification and class inequality which capitalism allows. That's my chief problem with it. I am all for civil liberties, that's not my problem. But her claim that she is a proponent of equality whilst capitalism breeds economic inequality.

[GeeBee]

Distribution of wealth leads to class stratification and class inequality which capitalism allows. That's my chief problem with it. I am all for civil liberties, that's not my problem. But her claim that she is a proponent of equality whilst capitalism breeds economic inequality.

No...in their view, if you're poor, it's because you're not working hard enough. Luck or opportunity don't enter into it. You COULD be as equal as that rich guy if you'd just get your act together and get off welfare!

[saysmydoctor]

Like anybody wants to be on welfare and to imply that those who are on it don't work hard is naivety. (I know you are joking, but I'm just making the argument.)

[momentsrewound]

AMERICA IS AN OBAMANATION.

/lame joke