A slightly different spin on the beaten-down abortion issue [Archive]

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 02:33 PM

Let's assume that the fetus is a person, for simplicity, and that abortion is completely legal and is an option. Also, this was consentual sex, and there aren't health risks, or age/responsibility issues. Assume the father, mother, or both, are 100% capable of raising the child. This isn't a debate for or against abortion, period, so try not to stray off topic.

In your mind, does the father deserve to get a say in the abortion?

Some points to think about:
-If the father doesn't want the child, as it stands today, he is held responsible and must pay child support in order to crack down on deadbeat dads.
-If the father SHOULD get a say, how would it be implemented legally?

And no, this isn't for homework or anything, but my philosophy class has been discussing it the entire semester so far.

boldt_action

01/31/06, 02:35 PM

I think he has a say as long as it's not a rape or anything weird like that.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 02:36 PM

I think he has a say as long as it's not a rape or anything weird like that.
Good point, I forgot a condition.

boldt_action

01/31/06, 02:39 PM

It's alright. That's my view. I don't see how you couldn't give him a say, unless the girl was a selfish bitch.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 02:41 PM

It's alright. That's my view. I don't see how you couldn't give him a say, unless the girl was a selfish bitch.
Well how do we give him a say? If he wants the baby, does this force the mother do keep it against her will? If not, what's the logic behind forcing an unwilling father to pay child support for 18 years?

boldt_action

01/31/06, 02:44 PM

I think it SHOULD be a collective decision (side note:since i'm prolife i would choose no abortion).

However, I think in reality the woman does have the final say. Considering she can do it on her own time.

I am all talk

01/31/06, 06:26 PM

the father does deserve somewhat of a say but in my opinion his say should be obsolete. Let's say 51% mother's decision, 49% father's

dai the flu

01/31/06, 07:38 PM

this was a question brought up in the other abortion debate but it was never answered.
the woman gets pregant by accident. she can choose to not have an unwanted baby, its her life, her decision. she can end the pregnancy.
a man accidentally fathers an unwanted baby, its his life, his decision, he shouldnt have to support that child financially if he doesnt want to.
equal rights.
im campaigning for men's equal rights.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 07:47 PM

nope, because again, it's connect to the fact that I think women should have a choice. so if the man decides that he wants the baby but the woman doesn't... where does that leave the woman? the man isn't the one who's going to carry the baby for 9 months. so basically, the woman's body would be used against her wishes.

besides, men don't have to pay the woman during her pregnancy, do they? they have to pay only once the child is born. think of that.

lightcollapse

01/31/06, 07:50 PM

dai the flu

01/31/06, 07:51 PM

woman doesnt want the baby, man does. woman can decide to have abortion.
man doesnt want the baby, woman does. man has to pay for that unwanted baby for 18 years.
how is that fair?

JacksColdSweat

01/31/06, 07:55 PM

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 08:00 PM

woman doesnt want the baby, man does. woman can decide to have abortion.
man doesnt want the baby, woman does. man has to pay for that unwanted baby for 18 years.
how is that fair?
So a person should have control over someone else's body? Someone who's capable of making decisions themselves?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 08:03 PM

So a person should have control over someone else's body? Someone who's capable of making decisions themselves?
So then a man can't tell a woman to have/abort a baby and a woman can't tell a man to pay for the child/not pay for the child. No one is infringing anyone's rights that way, correct?

Cal Smith

01/31/06, 08:05 PM

So a person should have control over someone else's body? Someone who's capable of making decisions themselves?

I think that's the whole point for me. I don't think someone should have a say over anyone's body whether they're capable of making the decision or not.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 08:07 PM

So then a man can't tell a woman to have/abort a baby and a woman can't tell a man to pay for the child/not pay for the child. No one is infringing anyone's rights that way, correct?
I don't think it's the woman who makes the man pay. It's the law.

Simply put: the man has no rights over the baby until it is born. And rightfully so, because he's not the one carrying it.

And you do realize that if the man gets a say in a woman's pregnancy, a lot of things would come up, right? Such as... a person having control over the body of someone else who is completely capable of making their own decisions. I believe that's not legal.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 08:08 PM

I think that's the whole point for me. I don't think someone should have a say over anyone's body whether they're capable of making the decision or not.
Exactly. That's what it all comes down to.

nfggc10

01/31/06, 08:20 PM

So a person should have control over someone else's body? Someone who's capable of making decisions themselves?
Then why did they have sex in the first place? The only way I would ever support an abortion is if conception occurred during rape.

In any other case, if you are responsible enough to be having sex than deal with the consequences. It's people that get pregant at 16 that deserve life threatening std's than getting pregnant. You can't 'abort' HIV...

dai the flu

01/31/06, 08:21 PM

isnt forcing someone to pay child-support for an unwanted child somewhat the same?
hypothetically, say we had a kid. me and you. what a cute baby.
i didnt want the baby, i wanted you to have an abortion.
you wanted the baby and had it anyway.
i didnt choose to have the baby, i didnt want it, should i still have to pay to support it?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 08:23 PM

I don't think it's the woman who makes the man pay. It's the law.

Simply put: the man has no rights over the baby until it is born. And rightfully so, because he's not the one carrying it.

And you do realize that if the man gets a say in a woman's pregnancy, a lot of things would come up, right? Such as... a person having control over the body of someone else who is completely capable of making their own decisions. I believe that's not legal.
Why is it a law then, if men cannot have a part of the decision? It takes 2 to have a baby. A woman can opt out if she wants, legally, but a man is bound to pay 18 years of child support, legally. That's fair to you?

nfggc10

01/31/06, 08:25 PM

Why is it a law then, if men cannot have a part of the decision? It takes 2 to have a baby. A woman can opt out if she wants, legally, but a man is bound to pay 18 years of child support, legally. That's fair to you?
These are the situations people should be ready to deal with if they are 'ready' to have sex....

jsteil

01/31/06, 08:27 PM

Leave it up to the courts is what I say.

Have you ever read news about women stealing sperm from men and being sued for it, what do you say in those cases?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 08:31 PM

Leave it up to the courts is what I say.

Have you ever read news about women stealing sperm from men and being sued for it, what do you say in those cases?
They stole the sperm, there is absolutely no way the man SHOULDN'T have a say about it. Having sex and not taking responsibility is one thing, but when you absolutely had no part in forming the baby, you should be able to terminate any fetus created using a part of you.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 08:32 PM

These are the situations people should be ready to deal with if they are 'ready' to have sex....
But it's completely ok that it's 100% one-sided? Men are always held responsible for the child, but a woman is not.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 08:39 PM

you can't really debate this topic without getting into the whole "pro choice & pro life" debate all over again. obviously, the ones who are pro life (most of them, at least) are going to say that the men should have a say if he doesn't want the baby to be aborted because... anything to stop the woman from having an abortion.

but it all comes down to the fact that no person should have any rights over someone else's body. also, as I said before, a man does not pay a woman while she's pregnant, so the baby isn't "legally" his until it's born. thereofore he has no say on whether she should have an abortion or not.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 08:39 PM

But it's completely ok that it's 100% one-sided? Men are always held responsible for the child, but a woman is not.
a man is held responsible only when the baby is born, just like the woman is.

but okay, so if the father won't have to pay for childcare if he does not desire, since he wanted the baby to be aborted....... let's also put it this way: 2 people get married, have a child.. and after a few years, they get divorced. say, the child lives with the mother.. and the father will still have to pay for child support, right? what if the father decides that he just doesn't want to because he doesn't care about the child? what makes this different from the other situation where the father does not want the child from the very beginning? both fathers would be claiming the same thing: the right not to pay for a child they did/do not want. why should the first father get what he wants, but the second one doesn't?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 08:45 PM

a man is held responsible only when the baby is born, just like the woman is.

but okay, so if the father won't have to pay for childcare if he does not desire..... let's also put it this way: 2 people get married, have a child.. and after a few years, they get divorced. say, the child lives with the mother.. and the father will still have to pay for child support, right? what if the father decides that he just doesn't want to because he doesn't care about the child? what makes this different from the other situation where the father does not want the child from the very beginning? both fathers would be claiming the same thing: the right not to pay for a child they did/do not want.
That's changing the situation, because he has already agreed to have the child. The pre-birth father does not want it from the start, and didn't intend to.

If you say he accepts the risks by having sex, so does a mother who opts to abort, yet she gets the chance to back out, while the man is forced by law to accept the woman's choice either way.

My only absolute personal view is that I would be 100% insulted if I wanted a child and the woman wouldn't have any of it and aborted. I don't think there's a way to legally force the woman to carry and birth the child, and I admit it would cause more than a bit of trouble if fathers could easily opt out of child support, but that is in no way fair at all. "Life is not fair." Yea, tell me about it.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 08:47 PM

That's changing the situation, because he has already agreed to have the child. The pre-birth father does not want it from the start, and didn't intend to.

If you say he accepts the risks by having sex, so does a mother who opts to abort, yet she gets the chance to back out, while the man is forced by law to accept the woman's choice either way.
not necessarily. he didn't sign any papers in which he agreed to have the child, so really, you can't use that as a reason. not legally at least.

it's the same situation. and the second father can also claim that he did not want the child from the very beginning anyway. so what are you going to do now? are you going to make every man sign papers (about whether they agree or disagree) when their wives/partners get pregnant?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 08:52 PM

not necessarily. he didn't sign any papers in which he agreed to have the child, so really, you can't use that as a reason. not legally at least.

it's the same situation. and the second father can also claim that he did not want the child from the very beginning anyway. so what are you going to do now? are you going to make every man sign papers (about whether they agree or disagree) when their wives/partners get pregnant?
Maybe that's an option. There's the idea of liscensing parents, is that the way to go? And by your logic, the very act of sex is a man's complete waiver of his right to decide, correct? Once the sperm enters the woman, it matters not whether he wants it or not, he is forced by law to care for it if the woman chooses?

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 08:55 PM

Maybe that's an option. There's the idea of liscensing parents, is that the way to go? And by your logic, the very act of sex is a man's complete waiver of his right to decide, correct? Once the sperm enters the woman, it matters not whether he wants it or not, he is forced by law to care for it if the woman chooses?
It doesn't, because he has no control over the woman's body.

How is it okay for anyone to control someone else's body?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 08:57 PM

It doesn't, because he has no control over the woman's body.

How is it okay for anyone to control someone else's body?
That sperm was mine. What gives you the right to do what you want with it?

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 08:59 PM

That sperm was mine. What gives you the right to do what you want with it?
it's her body, she can do whatever she wants with it. but if you want to put it that way, you gave her the right when you let it get inside of her. and technically, it's not yours any longer if it leaves your body anyway.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:01 PM

it's her body, she can do whatever she wants with it. but if you want to put it that way, you gave her the right when you let it get inside of her.
So she's pregnant, and decides, with her body, which she can do whatever she wants with, it's fine and dandy to shoot up with heroin. Who cares what might happen to the baby, it's my body.

No one else can step in? I think I'm straying from my own topic with this post...

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:02 PM

So she's pregnant, and decides, with her body, which she can do whatever she wants with, it's fine and dandy to shoot up with heroin. Who cares what might happen to the baby, it's my body.

No one else can step in? I think I'm straying from my own topic with this post...
alright, so she shouldn't decide what to do with her body, but you should. right? that makes a lot of sense.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:06 PM

alright, so she shouldn't decide what to do with her body, but you should. right? that makes a lot of sense.
You can tell me what to do with my[ money, though, by forcing me to pay child support. That's pretty much on par with logic.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:09 PM

You can tell me what to do with my[ money, though, by forcing me to pay child support. That's pretty much on par with logic.
as I said, a lot of fathers could claim that they did not want the child later in life, just so they wouldn't have to pay for childcare. you can't prove in any way that they agreed to have the baby. and even if they agreed to at first, they can say that they don't want the child anymore. just like the other father wouldn't want the child from the very beginning. so why would he have to pay for a child that he does not want? there is no difference at all. both don't want the child, it doesn't matter since when.

Justin_stacy

01/31/06, 09:09 PM

That sperm was mine. What gives you the right to do what you want with it?

You relinquished control over it when you dropped it off inside her. One of the consequences of having casual sex is being at the mercy of the female participant if she were to get pregnant. You have no say in whether she keeps it or destroys and either way you're stuck living with her choice. Just another example of how life isn't exactly fair.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:12 PM

as I said, a lot of fathers could claim that they did not want the child later in life, just so they wouldn't have to pay for childcare. you can't prove in any way that they agreed to have the baby. and even if they agreed to at first, they can say that they don't want the child anymore. just like the other father wouldn't want the child from the very beginning. so why would he have to pay for a child that he does not want? there is no difference at all. both don't want the child, it doesn't matter since when.
So let's refine the system ,that's the glory of the US Constitution, right? Make parents sign papers stating their official cause the moment they know of the pregnancy. Is that feasible?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:13 PM

You relinquished control over it when you dropped it off inside her. One of the consequences of having casual sex is being at the mercy of the female participant if she were to get pregnant. You have no say in whether she keeps it or destroys and either way you're stuck living with her choice. Just another example of how life isn't exactly fair.
Who says I relenquished it? Or I relenquished it on the assumption there would be a baby produced from it.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:14 PM

So let's refine the system ,that's the glory of the US Constitution, right? Make parents sign papers stating their official cause the moment they know of the pregnancy. Is that feasible?
it does not matter. a father can decide later in life that he does not want the child any longer, so why should he have to pay for him/her when the other father doesn't get to pay at all for a child he doesn't want? just because one decided that they didn't want their child since the beginning and the other decided later on?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:16 PM

it does not matter. a father can decide later in life that he does not want the child any longer, so why should he have to pay for him/her when the other father doesn't get to pay at all for a child he doesn't want? just because one decided that they didn't want their child since the beginning and the other decided later on?
No, I'm saying that whatever they write down at conception, they're held to by a legal contract. There is no mind changing. A mother who has the baby without the man's agreement accepts that there will be no support, and any other situation.

Justin_stacy

01/31/06, 09:16 PM

You can tell me what to do with my[ money, though, by forcing me to pay child support. That's pretty much on par with logic.

Two completely different things; you chose to have sex knowing the outcome could be a pregnancy, so you had a choice in the matter. The womyn, using your example, would have no "choice" in the matter if you were to have the final veto between birth and abortion. Why should you be allowed a choice and not her?

Your attempt at a comparison would work only if you were forced into the act of sex and a pregnancy was the outcome.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:17 PM

No, I'm saying that whatever they write down at conception, they're held to by a legal contract. There is no mind changing.
that doesn't answer my question / post.

both fathers don't want the child. why does it matter since when they decided not to want the child anymore?

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:18 PM

Two completely different things; you chose to have sex knowing the outcome could be a pregnancy, so you had a choice in the matter. The womyn, using your example, would have no "choice" in the matter if you were to have the final veto between birth and abortion. Why should you be allowed a choice and not her?

Your attempt at a comparison would work only if you were forced into the act of sex and a pregnancy was the outcome.
exactly. and I think she should get the last say in the whole thing because it's her body. that's what it all comes down to.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:19 PM

that doesn't answer my question / post.

both fathers don't want the child. why does it matter since when they decided not to want the child anymore?
Because at the start of the thing, in the situation with a contract, the man who gets divorced later on would have agreed to support the child, and then when the divorce comes, he would still be held to that agreement. The other man, from the start, did not want it. There IS a difference.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:21 PM

Two completely different things; you chose to have sex knowing the outcome could be a pregnancy, so you had a choice in the matter. The womyn, using your example, would have no "choice" in the matter if you were to have the final veto between birth and abortion. Why should you be allowed a choice and not her?

Your attempt at a comparison would work only if you were forced into the act of sex and a pregnancy was the outcome.
Well no, because you give the woman a chance to opt out and a man no chance at all. Sure it's a woman's body, but it doesn't affect the woman's body, or any of her other posessions, if the man did not support the child.

*I completely understand it's the woman's body, and I'm not saying if a man wants it, it is done.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:22 PM

Because at the start of the thing, in the situation with a contract, the man who gets divorced later on would have agreed to support the child, and then when the divorce comes, he would still be held to that agreement. The other man, from the start, did not want it. There IS a difference.
but so what? people change their minds. and their feelings change too.

all I'm saying is that it comes down to neither of them wanting the child, so it doesn't matter when each of them made that decision. not wanting a child from the beginning is no different than not wanting the child later in life.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:23 PM

Well no, because you give the woman a chance to opt out and a man no chance at all. Sure it's a woman's body, but it doesn't affect the woman's body, or any of her other posessions, if the man did not support the child.

*I completely understand it's the woman's body, and I'm not saying if a man wants it, it is done.
that doesn't make sense. it affects the woman greatly if the father does not support the child once it's born. what are you talking about?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:24 PM

but so what? people change their minds. and their feelings change too.

all I'm saying is that it comes down to neither of them wanting the child, so it doesn't matter when each of them made that decision. not wanting a child from the beginning is no different than not wanting the child later in life.
So then you agree you can opt out of any contract at any point if you still assume both situations are similar. The divorce father signs a contract saying he accepted the child at first,but changed his mind. By that logic, I can sign any contract, and then decide I changed my mind and then back out of it.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:25 PM

that doesn't make sense. it affects the woman greatly if the father does not support the child once it's born. what are you talking about?
Indirectly, but it doesn't send a knife stabbing into her stomach.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:26 PM

So then you agree you can opt out of any contract at any point if you still assume both situations are similar. The divorce father signs a contract saying he accepted the child at first,but changed his mind. By that logic, I can sign any contract, and then decide I changed my mind and then back out of it.
no, I'm saying that both fathers should have the same rights if they do not want the baby.

Justin_stacy

01/31/06, 09:26 PM

Who says I relenquished it? Or I relenquished it on the assumption there would be a baby produced from it.

Your act of ejaculation said it for you, regardless of whether your mouth said the words. Were you planning on just dropping the sperm off for awhile and then asking for it to be returned in full? If that were the case I’d advise you to invest in some condoms.

The answer to your second part is nature. One of the natural out comes of sex (and its intended purpose) is the "production of life" so regardless of whether your intentions were to knock the womyn up, you are still responsible for the outcome of your choices.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:26 PM

Indirectly, but it doesn't send a knife stabbing into her stomach.
indirectly? if you say so.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:28 PM

indirectly? if you say so.
If you had my baby, and I didn't pay child support, do you fall over and die?

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:30 PM

If you had my baby, and I didn't pay child support, do you fall over and die?
if you pay for child support, will you fall over and die?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:30 PM

Your act of ejaculation said it for you, regardless of whether your mouth said the words. Were you planning on just dropping the sperm off for awhile and then asking for it to be returned in full? If that were the case I’d advise you to invest in some condoms.

The answer to your second part is nature. One of the natural out comes of sex (and its intended purpose) is the "production of life" so regardless of whether your intentions were to knock the womyn up, you are still responsible for the outcome of your choices.
We'll go to the contract part. I relinquish my sperm on the condition that it makes a baby only, and we both sign, by the contract of sexual intercourse.. By your logic, releasing the sperm means she can do what she wants, but if my condition was that she make a baby with it, can she scratch that and just make a toy out of a vile of my sperm? That wasn't my intention.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:31 PM

if you pay for child support, will you fall over and die?
I worked hard for my money and never agreed to give it to the child. What gives anybody the right to take my money without my consent?

If the law says so, what makes the law right?

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:33 PM

I worked hard for my money and never agreed to give it to the child. What gives anybody the right to take my money without my consent?

If the law says so, what makes the law right?
the fact that your blood is running through that kid's veins. that's what makes it right.

so if we use your logic, about the woman not getting affected directly... well let's just say it doesn't make sense. because if that's the case, then you don't get affected by it directly either. both of you get affected by it the same way: financially.

Justin_stacy

01/31/06, 09:35 PM

, if the man did not support the child.
.

Will the kid not suffer if you refuse support? Why should the kid suffer because of your choices? Were you not a willing participant in its creation?

No matter how you look at it your stuck because you chose to have sex.....you play you pay, is the old saying.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:37 PM

the fact that your blood is running through that kid's veins. that's what makes it right.

so if we use your logic, about the woman not getting affected directly... well let's just say it doesn't make sense. because if that's the case, then you don't get affected by it directly either. both of you get affected by it the same way: financially.
So then adopted parents must pay child support, too.

For the second part, say we're not talking about a child, but a car. We both spent equal time building it, but we finish it and I want to give it away, and you want to keep it. Because my blood, sweat, and tears went into it, I should pay gas and insurance, right?

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:38 PM

So then adopted parents must pay child support, too.

For the second part, say we're not talking about a child, but a car. We both spent equal time building it, but we finish it and I want to give it away, and you want to keep it. Because my blood, sweat, and tears went into it, I should pay gas and insurance, right?
that is completely different.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:38 PM

Will the kid not suffer if you refuse support? Why should the kid suffer because of your choices? Were you not a willing participant in its creation?

No matter how you look at it your stuck because you chose to have sex.....you play you pay, is the old saying.
I don't want to sidetrack the whole argument, but do you agree with abortion then? A woman played her part, too, and she has to pay for one operation if she doesn't want it, not 18 years of support.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:38 PM

that is completely different.
How so?

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:39 PM

How so?
because I believe that laws concerning humans and objects are quite different?

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:40 PM

How so?
Nvm, I found my hole.

I decide, after obtaining all the pieces, that I don't want anything to do with the car anymore, but you continue to build it anyway. When it's all completele, you come to me for half the gas and insurance money.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:40 PM

because I believe that laws concerning humans and objects are quite different?
But we assumed the baby was a human, and that means it is it's own person. The mother who says "my body, my choice" is regarding it as a part of herself, not another person. One's own body is the ultimate possession, possessions being objects.

Lueda Alia

01/31/06, 09:42 PM

But we assumed the baby was a human, and that means it is it's own person. The mother who says "my body, my choice" is regarding it as a part of herself, not another person. One's own body is the ultimate possession, possessions being objects.
the mother is talking about something that has the potential to become a baby, not an actual person that's been born.

kidinthecorner

01/31/06, 09:45 PM

the mother is talking about something that has the potential to become a baby, not an actual person that's been born.
If you read the first post, I assumed for simplicity that it was a child. I can point you to the number one pro-choice article that does the same thing and still makes a valid argument. Yes, I meant pro-choice, and yes, she DID assume it was a person from the second a sperm met an egg.