Economically conservative yet socially liberal

[oneswiftmotion]

I personally know someone who identifies herself by my thread title, but I've never really understood this. Yes, we understand you want to be identified as wealthy, but I don't really think that you could also be socially progressive. How can these two be mutually exclusive? It's absolutely obvious that they spill over into each other. For example, you're affluent, yet wanting your government to change whatever problem you're out driving your Prius for. Then, if the government chooses to change their policies, where do you think that they're going to get a hold of the finances to implement said plan? In my opinion, it's coming from your tax money since you can economically survive even with raised taxes.

In conclusion, you're not Hannah Montana: You can't get the best of both worlds.

[Machu505]

It's called a libertarian.

[oneswiftmotion]

Still doesn't make sense.

[Love As Arson]

It is a viewpoint that ignores the economic underpinnings of oppression. Libertarianism, incidentally, is an ideology distorted by Americans. In actuality, it rejects all unjust claims to authority, including that of the free-market.

[GeeBee]

Libertarians laugh at Marxism because it's too "utopian" and is a "failed experiment".
The ultimate irony.

[Machu505]

Still doesn't make sense.
I agree.

[Love As Arson]

Libertarians laugh at Marxism because it's too "utopian" and is a "failed experiment".
The ultimate irony.
A friend of mine, who is conservative, told me this. I asked whether or not he has seen the recent reports about an economic crisis.

[GeeBee]

A friend of mine, who is conservative, told me this. I asked whether or not he has seen the recent reports about an economic crisis.

I know. Lenin had it wrong...he should have just let capitalism run rampant for a few decades. Then there's no need to try to convince anyone of socialism's merits. It will become blatantly evident.

[Love As Arson]

It has become blatantly evident.
Lately, I've seen a lot of writings on the need for a new economic model. The Nation, who supported Kerry, had a forum on it.

[GeeBee]

Lately, I've seen a lot of writings on the need for a new economic model. The Nation, who supported Kerry, had a forum on it.

I'm only now starting to realize how much culture has to do with it. We're Americans. We like big things. We like status. We demand it. A new model would be as hard to force on America as it is to force democracy on nations that cannot digest it.
Not saying I'm not all for it, just saying it's a long long shot.

[bung]

There's soo many different brands of libertarianism. For one, capital "L" Libertarianism in America means you support the Libertarian Party.. which is basically a bunch of neo-conservative idiots. Small "l" libertarian means you support the general philosophy of libertarianism, without necessarily supporting some Libertarian Party.

Two people can be libertarians and still have radically different views on a lot of issues. However, most libertarians agree with the general consensus of, "Hey government, leave me the fuck alone."

[saysmydoctor]

Basically a belief that calls for equality on all levels except for class.

[GeeBee]

Well, I guess I'm more of a Bill Maher libertarian. I like freedom and all, but the libertarians I know don't even recognize why they sound like anarchists. That's not "freedom", that's disorder. There's a difference.

[GeeBee]

Basically a belief that calls for equality on all levels except for class.

Yes. If there was a political ideology that could be labeled "dog-eat-dog", it's libertarianism.

[oneswiftmotion]

Basically a belief that calls for equality on all levels except for class.

but you can't have social change without economic change. It seems inevitable...

[saysmydoctor]

but you can't have social change without economic change. It seems inevitable...
The two do not go hand in hand, I don't agree.

[GeeBee]

The two do not go hand in hand, I don't agree.

I don't necessarily agree, either, but I think a decent example of economic/social change going hand in hand would be the relationship between higher gas prices and "going green". The two seem intertwined.
Just a theory. Could be wrong.

[saysmydoctor]

I mean social rights though. Equal rights for women, gays, blacks, other minorities.

I think she is confusing social change with social equality, which is my problem with capitalism and libertarianism because they do not promote class equality.

[Love As Arson]

The two do not go hand in hand, I don't agree.
You don't think there is a connection to the arrival of capitalism and the establishment of a republic that preserved bourgeois property rights?
I'm only now starting to realize how much culture has to do with it. We're Americans. We like big things. We like status. We demand it. A new model would be as hard to force on America as it is to force democracy on nations that cannot digest it.
Not saying I'm not all for it, just saying it's a long long shot.
It'd be difficult, but that is why there is a need for a movement to show people that the change they desire is more tangible than they'd believe.

[saysmydoctor]

I don't agree they go hand in hand all the time. What economic change would bring about gay rights? What economic change brought about the civil rights movement?

[GeeBee]

social equality, which is my problem with capitalism and libertarianism because they do not promote class equality.

Agreed.

It'd be difficult, but that is why there is a need for a movement to show people that the change they desire is more tangible than they'd believe.

Viva la Revolucion! I agree 100%

[saysmydoctor]

My point was that economic change hasn't brought equality. At least in the US.

[Love As Arson]

I don't agree they go hand in hand all the time. What economic change would bring about gay rights?What economic change brought about the civil rights movement?
I think you may be looking at it in the wrong way. You can't, for example, talk about black rights without acknowledging the harsh economic realities many of that particular group endure.

[oneswiftmotion]

I don't agree they go hand in hand all the time. What economic change would bring about gay rights? What economic change brought about the civil rights movement?

In no way would the economic change be drastic, however. I mean that the government's going to tax the wealthy more to support these changes.... I know the organizations that represent these movements get $$ from the govt.

EDIT: I mean they would get them hypothetically speaking

[saysmydoctor]

I think you may be looking at it in the wrong way. You can't, for example, talk about black rights without acknowledging the harsh economic realities many of that particular group endure.
Yes, but that economic status was consistent with them since the Civil War for the most part, they were always at the bottom. That's static. That economic status inclined them to revolt believing they deserved (and rightfully so) better economic status. Do you see what I'm saying?

[saysmydoctor]

In no way would the economic change be drastic, however. I mean that the government's going to tax the wealthy more to support these changes.... I know the organizations that represent these movements get $$ from the govt.

EDIT: I mean they would get them hypothetically speaking
The government taxing the wealthy is a common misconception. American taxes are hardly progressive.

[Love As Arson]

Yes, but that economic status was consistent with them since the Civil War for the most part, they were always at the bottom. That's static. That economic status inclined them to revolt believing they deserved (and rightfully so) better economic status. Do you see what I'm saying?
In the larger context of the economy at the time, one saw a post-war boom, including the expansion of suburban communities, increasing college enrollment,higher wages, etc. The problem was, a large portion of the population was left out of these developments, which meant many were relegated to the lower-class. I would argue it was these economic facts are what provided the basis for the widespread civil rights movement.

[saysmydoctor]

Alright, I guess I can see where you are coming from, I guess I was looking at it from the minority standpoint where they saw no change in their status but change around them, which I guess would ultimately prove your point.

[oneswiftmotion]

The government taxing the wealthy is a common misconception. American taxes are hardly progressive.

What? My mom's annual salary after taxes seems like an entire 1/3 is missing. It's no misconception.

Also, it's defended in this recent news article about Obama's health care plan. At least read the 1st few sentences... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aj5HHIKfogR8&refer=worldwide

In Chicago :thumbup:

[saysmydoctor]

What? My mom's annual salary after taxes seems like an entire 1/3 is missing. It's no misconception.

Also, it's defended in this recent news article about Obama's health care plan. At least read the 1st few sentences... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aj5HHIKfogR8&refer=worldwide

In Chicago :thumbup:
Proportionally, the lower class pays a higher income tax and the sales tax is regressive so it hurts the poor more and when you consider the FICA tax is an incredibly regressive tax that completely benefits the rich.

[GeeBee]

What? My mom's annual salary after taxes seems like an entire 1/3 is missing. It's no misconception.

Also, it's defended in this recent news article about Obama's health care plan. At least read the 1st few sentences... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aj5HHIKfogR8&refer=worldwide

In Chicago :thumbup:

Do you know what disposable income is? How much does your mom make per year?

[The Personist]

I think the one thing I hate more than libertarians are libertarians who tout Ayn Rand as the source of their beliefs/philosophy.

Objectivism is without a doubt one of the stupidest things ever. And Ayn Rand is a shitty writer.

[oneswiftmotion]

Proportionally, the lower class pays a higher income tax and the sales tax is regressive so it hurts the poor more and when you consider the FICA tax is an incredibly regressive tax that completely benefits the rich.
what is the FICA tax?

Do you know what disposable income is? How much does your mom make per year?
it's the income after taxes, I believe. I don't know the exact amount, but I know it's above $100,000.

I think the one thing I hate more than libertarians are libertarians who tout Ayn Rand as the source of their beliefs/philosophy.

Objectivism is without a doubt one of the stupidest things ever. And Ayn Rand is a shitty writer.

I was just about to head over to the bookstore in a few days to buy it because my friend's been raving about her theory of objectivism. Should I reconsider that? haha

[The Personist]

what is the FICA tax?


it's the income after taxes, I believe. I don't know the exact amount, but I know it's above $100,000.



I was just about to head over to the bookstore in a few days to buy it because my friend's been raving about her theory of objectivism. Should I reconsider that? haha

Absolutely. Ayn Rand is dreadful, pretentious, shallow, and stupid. Her philosophy is the height of ignorance; she literally espouses selfishness and egoism (and egotism, though she writes this off to using a bad dictionary, which is absurd). As an artist, her ideas in Fountainhead offend me, and as a Marxist, her ideas in general offend me because she seems to think capitalism--including some sort of moral capitalism--is perfectly acceptable. I will never understand why her novels are so ridiculously long when they are mere exercises in caricature and sophistry.

Also, for a woman, she's pretty damn sexist.

[saysmydoctor]

what is the FICA tax?


it's the income after taxes, I believe. I don't know the exact amount, but I know it's above $100,000.



I was just about to head over to the bookstore in a few days to buy it because my friend's been raving about her theory of objectivism. Should I reconsider that? haha
It's a payroll tax, concerning social security, medicare, medicaid. It can only be taxed on up to an amount somewhat higher than $100,000 and then beyond that, it is not taxed. The average American doesn't make that much money, so the burden is heavier on the lower classes. Not to mention, it doesn't tax unearned income, which absolute bullshit in my opinion.


No don't buy that shitty book and don't buy into that obnoxious philosophy. It defies human nature and is based off individualism, which is ridiculous.

[The Personist]

It's a payroll tax, concerning social security, medicare, medicaid. It can only be taxed on up to an amount somewhat higher than $100,000 and then beyond that, it is not taxed. The average American doesn't make that much money, so the burden is heavier on the lower classes. Not to mention, it doesn't tax unearned income, which absolute bullshit in my opinion.


No don't buy that shitty book and don't buy into that obnoxious philosophy. It defies human nature and is based off individualism, which is ridiculous.

I think the biggest affront to philosophy is that The Fountainhead was on the Philosophy shelf at the Borders near me.

[GuitarR0cker1]

This ideology is madness. The people who support it often have no fucking clue about the gilded age or the fact that there would be not be such a large, prosperous working class(well that is changing now) without the New Deal. The sad part is that regardless of the continuing erosion of the middle class American, people still seem to be rather supportive of shitty economic policy.

[The Personist]

This ideology is madness. The people who support it often have no fucking clue about the gilded age or the fact that there would be not be such a large, prosperous working class(well that is changing now) without the New Deal. The sad part is that regardless of the continuing erosion of the middle class American, people still seem to be rather supportive of shitty economic policy.

It's because the basic point is selfish = good. That's a point that appeals to shallow people who think that selfishness and personal autonomy are synonymous.

[Machu505]

I find it hilarious that many "libertarians" advocate banning abortion and same-sex marriage.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I think the biggest affront to philosophy is that The Fountainhead was on the Philosophy shelf at the Borders near me.
ugh that book is so terrible. I especially hate Rand's organization.

[The Personist]

I find it hilarious that many "libertarians" advocate banning abortion and same-sex marriage.

I hate to beat a dead retarded horse, but Rand said homosexuality was an abomination. I have heard libertarians use Rand as their evidence for why there should be no gay marriage. It's fucking sad.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I find it hilarious that many "libertarians" advocate banning abortion and same-sex marriage.
These are the tin foil hat wearing libertarians that just hate the government and are extremely paranoid about it, as long as it is interfering with them but like to use it on other people.

[oneswiftmotion]

It's a payroll tax, concerning social security, medicare, medicaid. It can only be taxed on up to an amount somewhat higher than $100,000 and then beyond that, it is not taxed. The average American doesn't make that much money, so the burden is heavier on the lower classes. Not to mention, it doesn't tax unearned income, which absolute bullshit in my opinion.


No don't buy that shitty book and don't buy into that obnoxious philosophy. It defies human nature and is based off individualism, which is ridiculous.
You seem to know a lot about this stuff. Are you planning on being my state's new Blago or something? I really hate the fact that the highway still has "open road tolling for your convenience provided by Governor Blagojevich" plastered over tons of signs. It should change to "open senate seats for $ provided by Blago."
About Rand, is it her ranting about how people only help others to help themselves? my friend seemed really interested in that, but whatevs, I'd rather read about existentialism ya know?

jk that is super confusing itself
I think the biggest affront to philosophy is that The Fountainhead was on the Philosophy shelf at the Borders near me.
what do you recommend instead? haha

[The Personist]

ugh that book is so terrible. I especially hate Rand's organization.

The Fountainhead offends me as an artist (I think I said that already, but it deserves repeating). What's ironic is that Rand's style is so dreadful and boring and yet she has the audacity to make fun of James Joyce and Gertrude Stein. What's also ironic is that she rejected Modernism in favor of her own Modernist zeitgeist. Literally nothing worthwhile about anything she did.

[The Personist]

You seem to know a lot about this stuff. Are you planning on being my state's new Blago or something? I really hate the fact that the highway still has "open road tolling for your convenience provided by Governor Blagojevich" plastered over tons of signs. It should change to "open senate seats for $ provided by Blago."
About Rand, is it her ranting about how people only help others to help themselves? my friend seemed really interested in that, but whatevs, I'd rather read about existentialism ya know?

jk that is super confusing itself

what do you recommend instead? haha

What are you interested in? If existentialism, go for Camus' The Stranger or The Plague. Both genius.

[Machu505]

I hate to beat a dead retarded horse, but Rand said homosexuality was an abomination. I have heard libertarians use Rand as their evidence for why there should be no gay marriage. It's fucking sad.
Is Rand the new Reagan? Right-wingers seem to love bringing up dead people to prove their points.

[The Personist]

Is Rand the new Reagan? Right-wingers seem to love bringing up dead people to prove their points.

No. Reagan was NOT as insane as Rand.

She said--and I'm not saying people said this about her, but SHE HERSELF SAID--that she was the most important philosopher of her time. Fucking pathetic.

[Machu505]

No. Reagan was NOT as insane as Rand.

She said--and I'm not saying people said this about her, but SHE HERSELF SAID--that she was the most important philosopher of her time. Fucking pathetic.
I realize her insanity surpasses that of Reagan, but the right-wing is starting to bring her up as much as they do Reagan. It's quite funny, actually.

[The Personist]

I realize her insanity surpasses that of Reagan, but the right-wing is starting to bring her up as much as they do Reagan. It's quite funny, actually.

I think it's a shame that her philosophy--which helped get us into this fucking economic mess, what with Greenspan's WORSHIP of Ayn Rand (when NYT gave Atlas Shrugged a bad review, he wrote a 50 page letter to them tellign them they were wrong)--is now experiencing a rebound and getting popular again. Sigh.

[GuitarR0cker1]

The Fountainhead offends me as an artist (I think I said that already, but it deserves repeating). What's ironic is that Rand's style is so dreadful and boring and yet she has the audacity to make fun of James Joyce and Gertrude Stein. What's also ironic is that she rejected Modernism in favor of her own Modernist zeitgeist. Literally nothing worthwhile about anything she did.
I have to admit I know nothing about philosophy haha, just politics. Marx will always be more interesting to be than Rand and I always come away from reading his works as if there is some truth in what he is saying. Comparing actual greats like Voltaire, Locke and others to her is like comparing Jesus to a shit sandwich.

[Machu505]

I think it's a shame that her philosophy--which helped get us into this fucking economic mess, what with Greenspan's WORSHIP of Ayn Rand (when NYT gave Atlas Shrugged a bad review, he wrote a 50 page letter to them tellign them they were wrong)--is now experiencing a rebound and getting popular again. Sigh.
Holy shit at Greenspan.

[The Personist]

I have to admit I know nothing about philosophy haha, just politics. Marx will always be more interesting to be than Rand and I always come away from reading his works as if there is some truth in what he is saying. Comparing actual greats like Voltaire, Locke and others to her is like comparing Jesus to a shit sandwich.

Haha, yeah, well...politically, her views translate to extreme libertarianism.

<3 Marx

[The Personist]

Holy shit at Greenspan.

I know, right? And yet all these people are "going John Galt" or what have you because they think being a selfish prick like Rand espouses will prevent Obama from eclipsing our personal freedoms with his evil negroid socialism.

Or something.

[Machu505]

I had no idea ArtfullyAborted was a Marxist. This is as surprising as when thespearkid became a Christian. Well... almost.

[The Personist]

Why is it surprising?

[GuitarR0cker1]

I think it's a shame that her philosophy--which helped get us into this fucking economic mess, what with Greenspan's WORSHIP of Ayn Rand (when NYT gave Atlas Shrugged a bad review, he wrote a 50 page letter to them tellign them they were wrong)--is now experiencing a rebound and getting popular again. Sigh.
hahaha seriously? It really does disturb me that the whole conservative movement that pretty much dictates what the Republican Party did and does is so influenced by this woman. A whole period of American politics has essentially been defined by some of her ideas.

[Machu505]

Why is it surprising?
I never really saw you as a Marxist. Mostly because all I've ever seen you talk about is philosophy relating to the existence of a god.

[The Personist]

hahaha seriously? It really does disturb me that the whole conservative movement that pretty much dictates what the Republican Party did and does is so influenced by this woman. A whole period of American politics has essentially been defined by some of her ideas.

What's so frustrating about the whole thing is that she doesn't even hide her elitism, and actually says being an elitist is OK because if you're better than someone, why not acknowledge it.

And the shame is, everyone who reads Fountainhead thinks he's Roark and thinks he has the right to be arrogant and condemn others because HE is the ideal. The funny part is, as anyone with a brain can see, of course the reader is going to identify with Roark. He's the protagonist.

The ideas are appealing because the reader of the ideas automatically becomes the ideal, which is funny, because Rand's objectivity falls apart when EVERYONE assumes he's the perfect man she espouses.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Haha, yeah, well...politically, her views translate to extreme libertarianism.

<3 Marx
Yeah, it doesn't take much brains to figure that out haha.

eh I am not big on him. I am pretty leftist though(well for an American) so I can definitley agree with some of things he says.

[The Personist]

I never really saw you as a Marxist. Mostly because all I've ever seen you talk about is philosophy relating to the existence of a god.

Haha, well, I think at some point I talked about living a religious life as a means to a Marxist end, but I may not have. I could if you want me to. But I don't wanna derail the thread.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I had no idea ArtfullyAborted was a Marxist. This is as surprising as when thespearkid became a Christian. Well... almost.
thespearkid is a Christian now?

[The Personist]

Yeah, it doesn't take much brains to figure that out haha.

eh I am not big on him. I am pretty leftist though(well for an American) so I can definitley agree with some of things he says.

I agree about revolution; I don't agree with some of his theories.

[Machu505]

Haha, well, I think at some point I talked about living a religious life as a means to a Marxist end, but I may not have. I could if you want me to. But I don't wanna derail the thread.
Haha I'm fine with my plain old secular socialist ideals.

[Machu505]

thespearkid is a Christian now?
Yep.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I agree about revolution; I don't agree with some of his theories.
Interesting, I disagree on revolution but I don't mind some of his theories on class divide, capitalism etc. I mean I don't completley agree with them or go out advocating for them but I can agree with parts of it. I am a Social Democrat, so I am pretty much a Socialist without balls haha. Plus I like capitalism, just not America's version of it.

[The Personist]

Haha I'm fine with my plain old secular socialist ideals.

I have always loved socialism. Haha, I rewrote lyrics to Decemberists songs from the perspective of Karl Marx for an AP Euro project. That was epic.

[Machu505]

Interesting, I disagree on revolution but I don't mind some of his theories on class divide, capitalism etc. I mean I don't completley agree with them or go out advocating for them but I can agree with parts of it.
This is basically my opinion. Socialism via reform ftw?

[The Personist]

Interesting, I disagree on revolution but I don't mind some of his theories on class divide, capitalism etc. I mean I don't completley agree with them or go out advocating for them but I can agree with parts of it.

I disagree with VIOLENT revolution. I think that was silly. But I think revolution is awesome and a wonderful concept to think about.

[GuitarR0cker1]

This is basically my opinion. Socialism via reform ftw?
:nod:
I am all for America being a social democracy like Europe. I am not quite as radical as Atlee or others though, I don't like government nationalization much unless it is absolutley necessary for short periods of time.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I disagree with VIOLENT revolution. I think that was silly. But I think revolution is awesome and a wonderful concept to think about.
I have to agree, I love the idea of protests and strikes.

[Machu505]

:nod:
I am all for America being a social democracy like Europe. I am not quite as radical as Atlee or others though, I don't like government nationalization much unless it is absolutley necessary for short periods of time.
You sir will make a great Vice President for me someday. Mark my words.

Though I'm not too sure your ideas would be popular in Idaho.

[The Personist]

You sir will make a great Vice President for me someday. Mark my words.

Though I'm not too sure your ideas would be popular in Idaho.

Can I be your speech writer? I'll leave Jesus out of it, promise.

[Machu505]

Can I be your speech writer? I'll leave Jesus out of it, promise.
Sure. Though it's important that we do not insult those who disagree with us. It generally does not work well.

[The Personist]

Sure. Though it's important that we do not insult those who disagree with us. It generally does not work well.

Oh, I understand this.

There are perhaps a few other people who need that little lesson in persuasion 101, however

[Machu505]

Oh, I understand this.

There are perhaps a few other people who need that little lesson in persuasion 101, however

Yes, of course.

I figure with some grandiose rhetoric and Southern charm (there's nothing like a lefty who enjoys red meat) I'll be able to woo voters who are otherwise hostile to socialism to support my agenda.

[Love As Arson]

I disagree with VIOLENT revolution. I think that was silly. But I think revolution is awesome and a wonderful concept to think about.
A revolution will entail violence. The ruling class does not typically cede power peacefully.It isn't pleasant, but a reality of any movement for structural social changes. This is not to say we must be equally brutal, but if workers take over their workplace, and the authorities try to step in, I think it is necessary to defend ourselves.

[The Personist]

Yes, of course.

I figure with some grandiose rhetoric and Southern charm (there's nothing like a lefty who enjoys red meat) I'll be able to woo voters who are otherwise hostile to socialism to support my agenda.

We capitalize on the love of red meat and don't call it socialism, but rather something fancy like an ideology of equality.

[The Personist]

A revolution will entail violence. The ruling class does not typically cede power peacefully.It isn't pleasant, but a reality of any movement for structural social changes. This is not to say we must be equally brutal, but if workers take over their workplace, and the authorities try to step in, I think it is necessary to defend ourselves.

I don't think self-defense is outright. I do not think, however, that the ends of socialism--or a dictatorship of the proletariat--justify the means of violence. I also don't think it necessary that anyone not in line with the revolution be violently overcome, either. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't believe a revolution must needs be wholly violent.

[Machu505]

We capitalize on the love of red meat and don't call it socialism, but rather something fancy like an ideology of equality.
"Economic Equality".

[The Personist]

"Economic Equality".

As long as you don't make any silly off the cuff statements about spreading the wealth around, we're good. Save that for the day after you get elected.

[Machu505]

As long as you don't make any silly off the cuff statements about spreading the wealth around, we're good. Save that for the day after you get elected.
They won't know what him 'em. I'll be ramming through Congress Puerto Rican statehood, single-payer healthcare, intense new regulations, same-sex marriage, etc.

Trojan horse'd em.

[The Personist]

They won't know what him 'em. I'll be ramming through Congress Puerto Rican statehood, single-payer healthcare, intense new regulations, same-sex marriage, etc.

Trojan horse'd em.

When you run for term 2, you can point out how even though everyone was pissed at first, everything works better now that you've had your way.

[Love As Arson]

I don't think self-defense is outright. I do not think, however, that the ends of socialism--or a dictatorship of the proletariat--justify the means of violence. I also don't think it necessary that anyone not in line with the revolution be violently overcome, either. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't believe a revolution must needs be wholly violent.
I agree. It needn't be wholly violent, but it is idealistic to believe that those who benefit from the current relations will give up their reign without any aggression. I also don't think that there is a need to liquidate regular people that may favor capitalism;but I do think that we can dismiss them, in the same way Americans dimissed the idea of monarchy as illegitimate. Furthermore, Trotsky makes a good point when he says this:


The question lies not even in which of the warring camps caused or itself suffered the greatest number of victims. History has different yardsticks for the cruelty of the Northerners and the cruelty of the Southerners in the Civil War. A slave-owner who through cunning and violence shackles a slave in chains, and a slave who through cunning or violence breaks the chains—let not the contemptible eunuchs tell us that they are equals before a court of morality

[Machu505]

When you run for term 2, you can point out how even though everyone was pissed at first, everything works better now that you've had your way.
During term 2, I annex Canada as the 52nd state, people love socialism, GuitarRocker succeeds me.

[The Personist]

I agree. It needn't be wholly violent, but it is idealistic to believe that those who benefit from the current relations will give up their reign without any aggression. I also don't think that there is a need to liquidate regular people that may favor capitalism;but I do think that we can dismiss them, in the same way Americans dimissed the idea of monarchy as illegitimate. Furthermore, Trotsky makes a good point when he says this:

I do concur with this. It's a shame (i'd like to fancy myself a pacifist), but I do acknowledge the eventual need for some kind of violence or aggression. Good point about the dismissing, too; that's something I never thought of, though with which I agree.

[The Personist]

During term 2, I annex Canada as the 52nd state, people love socialism, GuitarRocker succeeds me.

He wins an electoral landslide then does away with the electoral college.

(I can only hope)

[Machu505]

He wins an electoral landslide then does away with the electoral college.

(I can only hope)
I can only endorse him if he promises to put Woodrow Wilson on the $50 bill and build statues of Robert LaFollette, Huey Long, and Eugene McCarthy all around Washington.

[The Personist]

I can only endorse him if he promises to put Woodrow Wilson on the $50 bill and build statues of Robert LaFollette, Huey Long, and Eugene McCarthy all around Washington.

He also needs an awesome beard.

[Machu505]

Both of us will help to restart the Presidential beard trend.

[The Personist]

Another way in which you can be Marxist:

http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/poli/images/Karl_Marx.jpg

[Machu505]

Mine will be far less... Santa-ish. Sort of a conservative beard/stache combo.

[The Personist]

I'm too lazy to post a picture of Whitman, but I want a Whitman beard in the White House at some point.

I kinda want Obama to grow a beard.

[saysmydoctor]

You seem to know a lot about this stuff. Are you planning on being my state's new Blago or something? I really hate the fact that the highway still has "open road tolling for your convenience provided by Governor Blagojevich" plastered over tons of signs. It should change to "open senate seats for $ provided by Blago."
About Rand, is it her ranting about how people only help others to help themselves? my friend seemed really interested in that, but whatevs, I'd rather read about existentialism ya know?

jk that is super confusing itself

what do you recommend instead? haha
Blagojevich is a criminal, apparently one in a long line of criminals in Illinois.

Personally, and this is just me, I am very interested in social philosophy. Marx, Weber, Stuart Mill, Rosseau, Chomsky.
No. Reagan was NOT as insane as Rand.

She said--and I'm not saying people said this about her, but SHE HERSELF SAID--that she was the most important philosopher of her time. Fucking pathetic.
Reagan may not have been outwardly out of his mind, but he will eventually go down as having the most fucking backwards and hypocritical form of governing this nation has ever seen.

[Machu505]

Hmm an Obama beard. Not so sure about that.

[The Personist]

Blagojevich is a criminal, apparently one in a long line of criminals in Illinois.

Personally, and this is just me, I am very interested in social philosophy. Marx, Weber, Stuart Mill, Rosseau, Chomsky.

Reagan may not have been outwardly out of his mind, but he will eventually go down as having the most fucking backwards and hypocritical form of governing this nation has ever seen.

Oh, Chomsky. He's always fun and interesting. Damned good writer, but I find it hard to agree with him in some cases. Generative grammar is interesting, though not exactly social philosophy.

I think most non-revisionist historians, or rather those not desperate for some kind of idol or figurehead to represent their failing and obsolete ideologies, would agree about Reagan.

[The Personist]

Hmm an Obama beard. Not so sure about that.

Maybe a little stubble. Definitely not a full-on Santa beard, but I think he could have some rugged, "I'm such a badass" facial hair and get away with it. I dunno. Now that i think about it, I'm not so sure. I'd have to see it and judge then, I guess.

But I think we can all agree a Biden beard is retarded.

[saysmydoctor]

I wonder what Reagan would say if I said he was a big government proponent more than he'd like to acknowledge.

[The Personist]

I wonder what Reagan would say if I said he was a big government proponent more than he'd like to acknowledge.

Nothing because he's dead.

Or probably something that was eloquent but ultimately retarded.

[Machu505]

Maybe a little stubble. Definitely not a full-on Santa beard, but I think he could have some rugged, "I'm such a badass" facial hair and get away with it. I dunno. Now that i think about it, I'm not so sure. I'd have to see it and judge then, I guess.

But I think we can all agree a Biden beard is retarded.
I dunno. The dude's goin grey, so adding a beard to his already aging appearance would hurt the youthful image he had in the campaign.

[Machu505]

I wonder what Reagan would say if I said he was a big government proponent more than he'd like to acknowledge.
He would chuckle, pat you on the head, and proceed to call your rantings cute but naïve.

[saysmydoctor]

Well I mean, he took such a concentrated effort to cut back government spending and shrink government but ultimately inflated the defense budget horrendously, raided the Social Security coffers, spent that money, then kept going.

What's funny is how he rejected Keynesian economics and government stimulus and still stimulated the economy through defense spending. Not necessarily the best way to do it and still pretty fucking neoconservative, but that's what he did. I had never thought of it that way until recently.

[Machu505]

Interesting...

[The Personist]

He talked a helluva good game though, which is why so many people liked him.

[saysmydoctor]

Interesting...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/01/26/business/economy/20090126-recessions-graphic.html

That's exactly what I thought when I listened to it. It fucking blowed my mind.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I can only endorse him if he promises to put Woodrow Wilson on the $50 bill and build statues of Robert LaFollette, Huey Long, and Eugene McCarthy all around Washington.
Totally would except no Huey Long, he would be replaced with Caesar Chavez. I am also a grower of large amounts of facial hair. Intense beard would come out in like a week. I would have to annex Mexico though, legalize pot, demolish suburbs and start large labor projects to cultural heros(Tim Kasher, Jesse Lacey, Jeremy Engik). It would be so punx.

[Praetor]

There's soo many different brands of libertarianism. For one, capital "L" Libertarianism in America means you support the Libertarian Party.. which is basically a bunch of neo-conservative idiots. Small "l" libertarian means you support the general philosophy of libertarianism, without necessarily supporting some Libertarian Party.

Two people can be libertarians and still have radically different views on a lot of issues. However, most libertarians agree with the general consensus of, "Hey government, leave me the fuck alone."
Basically a belief that calls for equality on all levels except for class.
Best posts in the thread.
I find it hilarious that many "libertarians" advocate banning abortion and same-sex marriage.
I feel this way about "conservatives" but in my experience, the people that call themselves are libertarians really just want to separate themselves from the Republican "conservatives" on ridiculous issues like those.
I have to admit I know nothing about philosophy haha, just politics. Marx will always be more interesting to be than Rand and I always come away from reading his works as if there is some truth in what he is saying. Comparing actual greats like Voltaire, Locke and others to her is like comparing Jesus to a shit sandwich.
Happy birthday, man.

[The Personist]

Totally would except no Huey Long, he would be replaced with Caesar Chavez. I am also a grower of large amounts of facial hair. Intense beard would come out in like a week. I would have to annex Mexico though, legalize pot, demolish suburbs and start large labor projects to cultural heros(Tim Kasher, Jesse Lacey, Jeremy Engik). It would be so punx.

Bob Dylan and/or Jeff Mangum for poet laureate?

(or me. I wouldn't mind that)

[xshady121]

I find it hilarious that many "libertarians" advocate banning abortion and same-sex marriage.

I don't know too many libertarians that advocate a ban on same sex marriage. Enlighten me.

[The Personist]

I don't know too many libertarians that advocate a ban on same sex marriage. Enlighten me.

Do you consider Rand a libertarian? She was pretty homophobic.

[xshady121]

Do you consider Rand a libertarian? She was pretty homophobic.

He said "most". That generally means the great majority of them, not a select few.

[The Personist]

He said "most". That generally means the great majority of them, not a select few.

Well, I betcha Randian libertarians are homophobic. Most Rand fans are slaves to the cult of some hack of a writer whose entire life was spent trying to determine which was worse: her writing style or her philosophy.

[saysmydoctor]

I'm not sure I would consider 'most' libertarians against gay marriage, but I would say that their methodology in giving them the rights they deserve is very wrong and offhandish.

[paper halo]

I enjoyed the derailment into marxist and socialist theory. The number of intellectual leftist posters makes me wonder why there is no specific thread for it's discussion?

[saysmydoctor]

Because we inevitably will talk about in every thread imaginable regardless. :shrug:

[The Personist]

I enjoyed the derailment into marxist and socialist theory. The number of intellectual leftist posters makes me wonder why there is no specific thread for it's discussion?

We hijack all the other threads and synthesize whatever they're saying into our leftism.

[paper halo]

Because we inevitably will talk about in every thread imaginable regardless. :shrug:

Fair enough, I just found it to be a pleasant departure from the excessive amount of religious debate occurring in the politics forums recently.

[Machu505]

I don't know too many libertarians that advocate a ban on same sex marriage. Enlighten me.
When I said "'libertarians'" I was not commenting on the actual libertarian ideology, but on the fake libertarians such as Glenn Beck, etc.

He said "most". That generally means the great majority of them, not a select few.
Your point would be valid if I said "most", but what I said was "many".

Totally would except no Huey Long, he would be replaced with Caesar Chavez. I am also a grower of large amounts of facial hair. Intense beard would come out in like a week. I would have to annex Mexico though, legalize pot, demolish suburbs and start large labor projects to cultural heros(Tim Kasher, Jesse Lacey, Jeremy Engik). It would be so punx.
Pot will be legalized by the time you reach office, young one. But we really do need some Huey Long love.

[Machu505]

Well, I betcha Randian libertarians are homophobic. Most Rand fans are slaves to the cult of some hack of a writer whose entire life was spent trying to determine which was worse: her writing style or her philosophy.
I've heard Michelle Malkin speak of Rand positively more than once.

We hijack all the other threads and synthesize whatever they're saying into our leftism.
You betcha.

[The Personist]

I've heard Michelle Malkin speak of Rand positively more than once.


You betcha.

Now you've got me trying to decide who's worse, Rand or Malkin.

[Machu505]

Now you've got me trying to decide who's worse, Rand or Malkin.
I think Malkin to an extent. Though Rand's ideology has gotten a frighteningly large following, Malkin wrote a book defending Japanese internment during World War II.

[saysmydoctor]

Michelle Malkin's blog is probably one of the funniest fucking things I've ever read. Like, that the real funny thing about the fear-mongering conservative bloggers is that THEY are the only ones who are really scared. That's slays me.

[The Personist]

I think Malkin to an extent. Though Rand's ideology has gotten a frighteningly large following, Malkin wrote a book defending Japanese internment during World War II.

Ugh. Good point.