Michael Moore vs War

[Sean McGeezer]

http://michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php

[yeat182]

this article isn't all that accurate. I love Michael Moore, his documentaries were great and i think he normally makes very good points and well thought out arguements. but 90% of this is his opinion and some of the points he makes have no facts to back them up (like point #1 about "virtually everyone" being against the war. that isn't true, last i heard 71% of americans supported the war, but i would say it is at least 50/50)

and his 2nd point also has no basis on fact. yes people are out of work and gas prices are high, but for the past 5 years places like england have been paying the equivilent of 5 or 6 dollars a gallon. they seem to be surviving though, even as we bitch about paying $1.75 a gallon. the answer to that is...don't buy a car that take 30 gallons of gas to fill up. he says, "bombing iraq won't make any of this go away", but not bombing Iraq isn't going to make it any better either. and while he bitches about how high gas prices are, you know he's the first one to say that we shouldn't touch the Iraqi oil fields, even though, that would lower the price.

and as for france? yes we wouldn't be a nation with out the french, but he neglects to inform the readers that France would no longer be a nation with out the US. we supported their revelution in the 18th century, we stopped Bismark from conquering their country in WWI, and in WWII we liberated them from the Germans. with out us, they wouldn't enjoy that seat on the security council. I would say our debt to them has been repayed several times over.

normally i respect Michael Moore, and i do like the work he's done, but i think he should come up with something better than this. rather than making personal attacks against bush, he should come up with some valid arguements.

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by yeat182
)

and his 2nd point also has no basis on fact. yes people are out of work and gas prices are high, but for the past 5 years places like england have been paying the equivilent of 5 or 6 dollars a gallon. they seem to be surviving though, even as we bitch about paying $1.75 a gallon. the answer to that is...don't buy a car that take 30 gallons of gas to fill up. he says, "bombing iraq won't make any of this go away", but not bombing Iraq isn't going to make it any better either. and while he bitches about how high gas prices are, you know he's the first one to say that we shouldn't touch the Iraqi oil fields, even though, that would lower the price.



Comparing us to england doesn't work because the majority of people there don't own cars (public transportation actually works!) and the cars that they own get 30+ miles to the gallon. And lets not forget how much smaller England is than the US. They don't have to drive as far.

If gas prices in America wen't to $6 a gallon the economy would be even shittier than it is today.

[WithStamin]

Wow, that was pretty bad. Here I go to pick apart yet another letter...

Dear Governor Bush:

He's the president.

So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

Bush hasn't put forth any lies, unlike you (as to be seen later).

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why? 'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!

Americans are for the war. 60-70% according to every survey out there. This war is not about killing Iraqis, it's about freeing them and securing stability for the region and safety for our own nation.

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

1. America did elect him. That's why he is in office right now. 2. America is "fooled" by his weapons of mass destruction argument. Again, 60-70%. 3. Bush is doing what he can to stimulate the economy. By cutting taxes, he is allowing more people to be hired by the people who make this economy go: the rich. 4. This can also fix your gas problem, by bypassing OPEC.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

Almost no one actually like Saddam Hussein (the French excluded). There is just disagreement on how to deal with him. Yes, the pacifists are helping him, but that's not their intention. Again, 60-70% approve... I don't know why this guy keeps saying that America is not for the war.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

Since when did the Pope rule our government? There's seperation of church and state, not to mention the US isn't even Catholic for the majority. The Dixie Chick are just dumb, what can I say? Also, of course this war won't be his to fight. He's old.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't think so either!

And why exactly should Congress have to have their child join the military? Our military is volunteer. If they didn't happen to join, so be it.

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.

We don't owe the French squat. If anything, they owe us. If it were'nt for us, they'd all be speaking German. The French are still our allies, but we have a disagreement. Why should we have to follow the French's desision if we have the right to make our own? Also, all of your examples were hundreds of years old. Anything in this century where they helped us in the least bit?

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!

The economy's recovery is on it's way. As soon as Bush stated that Saddam's time was running out, the stock market jumped 200 points. The economy will be out of recession in a couple years. By the way, the current recession is the fault of overvalued compaies that grew during the Clinton administration.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
Comparing us to england doesn't work because the majority of people there don't own cars (public transportation actually works!) and the cars that they own get 30+ miles to the gallon. And lets not forget how much smaller England is than the US. They don't have to drive as far.

If gas prices in America wen't to $6 a gallon the economy would be even shittier than it is today.

yeah, i guess i was a little vague, what i meant was that $2 isn't shit compared to what other countries pay, and that if every fucking yuppie asshole didn't need an SUV or two it wouldn't be that bad to pay $2 a gallon, but it was their choice to buy a gas-guzzler, and now they're bitching about the cost. sorry.

[ilikemusic123]

*didn't go to link* all i know is that Moore is a genious and the way he directed the new awesome anti war "System of a down" video for "boom" is great! *the video is at www.shoutweb.com

[Expert_Monk]

Originally posted by WithStamin
Wow, that was pretty bad. Here I go to pick apart yet another letter...



He's the president.



Bush hasn't put forth any lies, unlike you (as to be seen later).



Americans are for the war. 60-70% according to every survey out there. This war is not about killing Iraqis, it's about freeing them and securing stability for the region and safety for our own nation.



1. America did elect him. That's why he is in office right now. 2. America is "fooled" by his weapons of mass destruction argument. Again, 60-70%. 3. Bush is doing what he can to stimulate the economy. By cutting taxes, he is allowing more people to be hired by the people who make this economy go: the rich. 4. This can also fix your gas problem, by bypassing OPEC.



Almost no one actually like Saddam Hussein (the French excluded). There is just disagreement on how to deal with him. Yes, the pacifists are helping him, but that's not their intention. Again, 60-70% approve... I don't know why this guy keeps saying that America is not for the war.



Since when did the Pope rule our government? There's seperation of church and state, not to mention the US isn't even Catholic for the majority. The Dixie Chick are just dumb, what can I say? Also, of course this war won't be his to fight. He's old.



And why exactly should Congress have to have their child join the military? Our military is volunteer. If they didn't happen to join, so be it.



We don't owe the French squat. If anything, they owe us. If it were'nt for us, they'd all be speaking German. The French are still our allies, but we have a disagreement. Why should we have to follow the French's desision if we have the right to make our own? Also, all of your examples were hundreds of years old. Anything in this century where they helped us in the least bit?



The economy's recovery is on it's way. As soon as Bush stated that Saddam's time was running out, the stock market jumped 200 points. The economy will be out of recession in a couple years. By the way, the current recession is the fault of overvalued compaies that grew during the Clinton administration.

No dude you're full of shit. I agree with you on the war popularity thing but the rest of your critiques suck, your opinions are ruled by your love for the repubican party. ENRON??? Bush has done nothing to keep the economy from going to shit. Remember last summer he said in a speech that there is a grey area in economics! As soon as he made that rediculous speech stocks plumeted. I don't know if you recall that in early February his Tax Cut plan was attacked by 10 NOBEL prize winning economists! And here's something else that you might remember or may have chosen to forget, while he was visiting Japan, he said the Yen was subject to 'Devaluation'. Haha, well the stock market nearly crashed but luckily one of his officials explained that he meant 'deflation of the Yen.' I'm not saying that the economy is bad because of him, I'm just saying it has gotten worse because of him.

[yeat182]

Michael Moore was booed so bad last night at the Oscars when he turned his acceptance speech into an anti-war speech. Seriously, how bad do you have to be to get booed in Hollywood for being TOO anit-war?

[xnotedgex]

Originally posted by yeat182
Michael Moore was booed so bad last night at the Oscars when he turned his acceptance speech into an anti-war speech. Seriously, how bad do you have to be to get booed in Hollywood for being TOO anit-war?

he wasn't booed for being too anti-war...he was booed for using the oscars as a platform to express his view on the war and president bush

[yeat182]

Originally posted by xnotedgex
he wasn't booed for being too anti-war...he was booed for using the oscars as a platform to express his view on the war and president bush

he is so anit-war that he feels he must use the oscars as his platform to discuss it. plenty of other winners were anti-war and they didn't feel the need to preach it to everyone there, most of them said something like, "lets all pray for peace" and left it at that.

[xnotedgex]

Originally posted by yeat182
Michael Moore was booed so bad last night at the Oscars when he turned his acceptance speech into an anti-war speech. Seriously, how bad do you have to be to get booed in Hollywood for being TOO anit-war?

also, perhaps you fail to notice what doesnt corroborate your biased points, but their were a number of cheers as well

[BrandNewRock05]

Originally posted by yeat182
he is so anit-war that he feels he must use the oscars as his platform to discuss it. plenty of other winners were anti-war and they didn't feel the need to preach it to everyone there, most of them said something like, "lets all pray for peace" and left it at that.
doesnt really matter

[yeat182]

Originally posted by xnotedgex
also, perhaps you fail to notice what doesnt corroborate your biased points, but their were a number of cheers as well

i noticed that he was cheered, just as everyone who won an award was cheered. however, from what i saw, he was the only one that got booed.

[Mr. Chainsaw]

WithStamin,
while many of your arguements are well thought out and well presented, i have to disagree with you economic statements. first, you'd mentioned tax cuts creating jobs. tax cuts do not help the economy by creating jobs, they do however help the economy by encouraging consumer spending. the idea with bush's tax cut, if it is truly going to affect the rich, would be to increase consumer spending among the upper class and the lower class would follow suit, a lot like reaganomics, we'll see how it works this time. second, the stock market rebounded because they believe that this will be a quick war, the longer we're in Iraq, the more we will see uncertainty arise again and as a result the market will drop again. However, if the war in Iraq is over quickly, the market would rebound in roughly 4 to 6 years, barring any extra spending. The problem is, the majority of this war is being funded by the United States including holdover of the troops to promote peace, that, along with bush's tax cut, could see the national defiicit rise and a recession continue. There are still too many variables to say that the war WILL cause the economy to rebound quickly, not saying that it can't, it just seems a little early with so many intangibles to be making such a statement.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Mr. Chainsaw
WithStamin,
while many of your arguements are well thought out and well presented, i have to disagree with you economic statements. first, you'd mentioned tax cuts creating jobs. tax cuts do not help the economy by creating jobs, they do however help the economy by encouraging consumer spending. the idea with bush's tax cut, if it is truly going to affect the rich, would be to increase consumer spending among the upper class and the lower class would follow suit, a lot like reaganomics, we'll see how it works this time.



consumer spending creates jobs....

[amishman]

I am going to make an assumption, but I believe it to be right: most people against the war, are against Bush. That simple. It wouldn't matter what Bush proposed, they would still be pissed.

Oh, and the argument for tax cut for rich people (can't remember who mentioned it), the rich get more money because, catch this, they actually pay more.

These are just opinions. If we disagree, then that's fine. That's what is so great about this country.

[evil zach]

Generally modt people who are aginst the war are agianst bush, but I know a few conservatives who oppose the war.

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by amishman
I am going to make an assumption, but I believe it to be right: most people against the war, are against Bush. That simple. It wouldn't matter what Bush proposed, they would still be pissed.

Oh, and the argument for tax cut for rich people (can't remember who mentioned it), the rich get more money because, catch this, they actually pay more.

These are just opinions. If we disagree, then that's fine. That's what is so great about this country.

Most people in this country were against Bush prior to 9/11, but they are only supporting him because we are at war. If we weren't bombing baghdad and hadn't taken over Afghanastan, Bush's approval would be in the shitter with the way the economy is heading.

And tax cuts give the rich a huge percentage of their taxes back, a much larger percentage than the rest of the population. It is not fair, and hasn't done shit for the economy. Bush was just paying his contributors back for helping him steal the election.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
Most people in this country were against Bush prior to 9/11, but they are only supporting him because we are at war. If we weren't bombing baghdad and hadn't taken over Afghanastan, Bush's approval would be in the shitter with the way the economy is heading.

And tax cuts give the rich a huge percentage of their taxes back, a much larger percentage than the rest of the population. It is not fair, and hasn't done shit for the economy. Bush was just paying his contributors back for helping him steal the election.

but rich people pay a much higher percentage of taxes to begin with...

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by yeat182
but rich people pay a much higher percentage of taxes to begin with...

true, but it's not on the same ratio as the money they got back.

[amishman]

Bush was just paying his contributors back for helping him steal the

He didn't steal the election. Quit living in the past. How do you think Gore would respond to 9/11?

[yeat182]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
true, but it's not on the same ratio as the money they got back.


true, i'm no econmics major.

[evil zach]

Originally posted by amishman
He didn't steal the election. Quit living in the past. How do you think Gore would respond to 9/11?
He may not have stole the election, but her certanly didn't win it. I think that gore would have done the same thing in regards to september 11th

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by evil zach
He may not have stole the election, but her certanly didn't win it. I think that gore would have done the same thing in regards to september 11th

agreed

[yeat182]

Originally posted by evil zach
He may not have stole the election, but her certanly didn't win it. I think that gore would have done the same thing in regards to september 11th

i agree that Gore's initial response would probably would have been the same, but i don't think he would have established a "doctrine" to eliminate terrorism. he would most likely have finished the taliban, and gone after Osama, and i think that would have been the end of it, i don't think he would have been in it for the long haul.

and please, there is no need to bring up what would have happened with Iraq...

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
Comparing us to england doesn't work because the majority of people there don't own cars (public transportation actually works!) and the cars that they own get 30+ miles to the gallon. And lets not forget how much smaller England is than the US. They don't have to drive as far.

If gas prices in America wen't to $6 a gallon the economy would be even shittier than it is today.

The majority of people in england DO drive cars, just those living in the metropalitan areas use public transportation at a high percent.

I do think our gas usage needs to be lowered, but taxes aren't the answer because we already seen how corrupt government gets the more tax revenue they recieve. So im not sure what we could do to lower our gas use, other then a manditory MPG setting which is higher then what it is now, but the problem here is that AMERICAN car companies don't have the tech. to meet higher limits and so a manditory MPG setting would kill the american automotive sector and put countless people out of work.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by evil zach
He may not have stole the election, but her certanly didn't win it. I think that gore would have done the same thing in regards to september 11th

I disagree i think he would have cowarded to the Taliban/AL Queda and tried to bribe them off, or he would have gone to the UN where nothing would have gotten done, and the taliban would have still be inpower to this day.

Appeasement is the Liberals way of fighting wars and this isn't good for the country nor the planet, so i'm personally thankful that he didn't WIN.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
Michael Moore was booed so bad last night at the Oscars when he turned his acceptance speech into an anti-war speech. Seriously, how bad do you have to be to get booed in Hollywood for being TOO anit-war?

Exactly, if a bunch of token liberals in hollywood boo ya you must know your an idiot.
I can't even say how happy i was when i heard this propagandist got booed in public.

[Atomic Punk]

michael moore is an idiot. who should keep his stupid leftwing opinions to him self.

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by Atomic Punk
michael moore is an idiot. who should keep his stupid leftwing opinions to him self.

Yes because anyone who disagrees with the ruling party and questions decisions made in this world is an idiot.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
Yes because anyone who disagrees with the ruling party and questions decisions made in this world is an idiot.

No because he promotes half truths and will purposely leave out things that hurt his cause, he also preys on the uninformed who dont know the hole truth behind issues, this is very simalar to FAT MIKE (ie the Youth of america).

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
No because he promotes half truths and will purposely leave out things that hurt his cause, he also preys on the uninformed who dont know the hole truth behind issues, this is very simalar to FAT MIKE (ie the Youth of america).

What political figure doesn't leave out things to help his cause????

[yeat182]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
What political figure doesn't leave out things to help his cause????

haha, true...

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
What political figure doesn't leave out things to help his cause????

I'll give you that but even you must admit he preys on the youth.