The Forbidden Cartoons

[mps]

Discuss the extent of their reprecussions in the Islamic community.

(they are here incase you haven't seen them http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004413.htm)

The latest on the situation.

Danish embassy in Beirut torched (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4682560.stm)

CARTOON ROW
30 Sept: Danish paper publishes cartoons
20 Oct: Muslim ambassadors complain to Danish PM
10 Jan: Norwegian publication reprints cartoons
26 Jan: Saudi Arabia recalls its ambassador
30 Jan: Gunmen raid EU's Gaza office demanding apology
31 Jan: Danish paper apologises
1 Feb: Papers in France, Germany, Italy and Spain reprint cartoons
4 Feb: Syrians attack Danish and Norwegian embassies in Damascus

[yeat182]

who cares, they are cartoons, if they don't like it don't read it, or better yet, stop letting other islamic people give their religion a bad name.

[mps]

I don't think that the response from the Islamic community is justified. They are burning down embassies and hating Danish and Norwegian people just because their printed some cartoons in their newspapers (also reprinted now by many other European papers).

[mps]

Congrats on 5k btw.

[yeat182]

I don't think that the response from the Islamic community is justified. They are burning down embassies and hating Danish and Norwegian people just because their printed some cartoons in their newspapers (also reprinted now by many other European papers).

i agree. the way they are acting almost fits the image of the very cartoons they have a problem with, its actions like this that make people think muslims are all dangerous extremists.

thanks for the 5k, i didn't even realize it.

[mps]

i agree. the way they are acting almost fits the image of the very cartoons they have a problem with, its actions like this that make people think muslims are all dangerous extremists.

thanks for the 5k, i didn't even realize it.
Plus they are hating whole nations for the actions of a few newpapers. They think they have to right to behave this way, because it is their religion etc, but many other religions get mocked, AND the same guy who did the Muslim cartoons did similar ones for Christians and Jews. I don't seem them burning down things and threatening to kill people.

You should make a thread.

[wyverna]

I think that the Islamic extremists are almost asking for the hatred, in a way. I think that they are making too much of a big deal over this, especially as they aren't Islamic countries. The culture is very different, and they should expect that.

I don't actually know if that made much sense written down, now I think about it.

[splitsecond]

All that the reactions to these comics do is make Muslims look ignorant. If Christians torched a bulding every time someone made fun of them we wouldnt have any buildings left anywhere in the world.

[mps]

All that the reactions to these comics do is make Muslims look ignorant. If Christians torched a bulding every time someone made fun of them we wouldnt have any buildings left anywhere in the world.
Exactly. But there aren't many Christian extremists around thankfully.

[lostntheseethru]

All that the reactions to these comics do is make Muslims look ignorant. If Christians torched a bulding every time someone made fun of them we wouldnt have any buildings left anywhere in the world.
that is exactly what i was gonna say. maybe its because its not a religion i follow or understand but i really think they have blown everything out of proportion. but i dont think the cartoons are a great idea either.

[Cal Smith]

amazes me they don't riot when it comes to people actually blowing up buildings in the name of Muhammad.........yet when a drawing depicts it, it's considered offensive. Give me a break.

[R7265ab]

Ok people understand this, it is completely obscene to depict muhammed in any non historical way. It is one of the worst offenses to their religion. The respsonses to this thread shows the complete ignorance of most people. Imagining someone smashing a depection of jesus christ stepping on it burning it filming and distributing it, and that is not even close the the severity of it. The fact that they rudely depicted it should adds mroe flame to the fire. Right to free speach does not free people form responsibility of their actions.

[Cal Smith]

Ok people understand this, it is completely obscene to depict muhammed in any non historical way. It is one of the worst offenses to their religion. The respsonses to this thread shows the complete ignorance of most people. Imagining someone smashing a depection of jesus christ stepping on it burning it filming and distributing it, and that is not even close the the severity of it. The fact that they rudely depicted it should adds mroe flame to the fire. Right to free speach does not free people form responsibility of their actions.

is it not completely obscene to allow a significant portion of people take that religion and blow up innocents in the name of Muhammed?

That's all I'm saying. There's a completely different reaction going on here.

[siberianxkiss]

here's more depictions for them to get upset over: http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

But wait, dont forget to blame America for all this too!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4678220.stm

Causes

The row over the Danish cartoons would probably have remained a local dispute between some Muslims and a Danish newspaper had it not been for three factors:

* the rise of violent political Islam
* America's war on terror
* modern transnational media.

America's war on terror is still largely perceived in the Arab world as a war on Islam - a perception reinforced by the fact that it is happening exclusively in Muslim countries, namely Iraq and Afghanistan.
US soldiers in the Iraqi city of Fallujah
Issues such as the Iraq war are seen as catalysts in the row

Parts of the Arab media describes it as a modern crusade. Many Arab columnists often speak of a campaign to distort and discredit Islam.

For them, the row over the Danish cartoons is yet another confirmation of this perception.

But long before the 11 September attacks and America's war on al-Qaeda, Islamists were aggressively promoting their world view and attacking liberal secular values, not only in the West but across the Arab and Muslim world as well.

The best-known example in the West is the row caused by Salman Rushdie's novel, The Satanic Verses, which culminated in the notorious death fatwa against its author by the late Iranian leader, Ayatollah Khomeyni.

In Egypt, the Nobel Prize winner, Naguib Mahfouz, survived a knife attack in 1994 for allegedly insulting Islam in one of his novels.

Another prominent writer, Farag Fouda, was gunned down in Cairo for alleged apostasy.

The internet and satellite broadcasting are being diligently used by Islamist activists across the world to drum up support for the doctrine of a universal Muslim nation up against an aggressive and imperialist West.

A local Danish dispute is thus quickly elevated to the level of a global conflict.

[Justin_stacy]

Imagining someone smashing a depection of jesus christ stepping on it burning it filming and distributing it, and that is not even close the the severity of it. The fact that they rudely depicted it should adds mroe flame to the fire. Right to free speach does not free people form responsibility of their actions.

Actually things much, much, more "severe" have been done against Christianity and called art or been defended with "free speech". Have you not been introduced to the Piss Christ ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Piss_Christ.jpg) or the Feces Mary ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/gallery/image/0,8543,-10704194503,00.html) ?

See this is where your conclusion fails to hold ground. Every group has faced an onslaught of offensive material, with a large portion of it coming out of Muslim communities, but yet no group has acted as the Arab world has. No where else in the world would you see this kind of insanity and the fact that you’re defending it just bewilders me. This thread may or may not show some ignorance, but your post unquestionably does.

No cartoon, no matter how poignant, is deserving of violence. And there’s nothing wrong with boycotting someone because you feel wronged, but you don’t accompany it with juvenile behavior. This, along with the recent Hamas elections, does nothing more then show the rest of the world that the Arab world is step below everyone else.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r399679231.jpg?

[R7265ab]

Actually things much, much, more "severe" have been done against Christianity and called art or been defended with "free speech". Have you not been introduced to the Piss Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Piss_Christ.jpg) or the Feces Mary (http://www.guardian.co.uk/gallery/image/0,8543,-10704194503,00.html) ?

See this is where your conclusion fails to hold ground. Every group has faced an onslaught of offensive material, with a large portion of it coming out of Muslim communities, but yet no group has acted as the Arab world has. No where else in the world would you see this kind of insanity and the fact that you’re defending it just bewilders me. This thread may or may not show some ignorance, but your post unquestionably does.

No cartoon, no matter how poignant, is deserving of violence. And there’s nothing wrong with boycotting someone because you feel wronged, but you don’t accompany it with juvenile behavior. This, along with the recent Hamas elections, does nothing more then show the rest of the world that the Arab world is step below everyone else.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r399679231.jpg? The depection is the actual wrong doing not jsut how they depict it, thats what you don't seem to be getting. Any depiction of Muhammed without a white cloak or in a historical painting is obscene to them.

[lostntheseethru]

Ok people understand this, it is completely obscene to depict muhammed in any non historical way. It is one of the worst offenses to their religion. The respsonses to this thread shows the complete ignorance of most people. Imagining someone smashing a depection of jesus christ stepping on it burning it filming and distributing it, and that is not even close the the severity of it. The fact that they rudely depicted it should adds mroe flame to the fire. Right to free speach does not free people form responsibility of their actions.

that doesnt mean they have the right to burn buildings and put people in danger either...thats why shit like this gets started. they react violently to everything that is ever said. the cartoons are offensive to me a little and im not islamic, so im not saying it was ok to make the cartoons but you cant always go blowing up buildings and setting shit on fire because someone offended you either...

[mps]

that doesnt mean they have the right to burn buildings and put people in danger either...thats why shit like this gets started. they react violently to everything that is ever said. the cartoons are offensive to me a little and im not islamic, so im not saying it was ok to make the cartoons but you cant always go blowing up buildings and setting shit on fire because someone offended you either...
Yes, the rebuttal is somewhat unjustified and exagerated in my opinion.

[lostntheseethru]

Yes, the rebuttal is somewhat unjustified and exagerated in my opinion.
(SORRY MUST USE CAPS HERE AT WORK)

YEA I UNDERSTAND TOTALLY WHY THEY ARE UPSET..

[mps]

(SORRY MUST USE CAPS HERE AT WORK)

YEA I UNDERSTAND TOTALLY WHY THEY ARE UPSET..
Yes but you don't see Christians running round blowing people/things up.

[lostntheseethru]

Yes but you don't see Christians running round blowing people/things up.
OH YEA I KNOW. I WAS JUST SAYING I SEE WHY THEY ARE MAD...EVEN IF THEY DID GO ABOUT IT THE WRONG WAY.

[mps]

OH YEA I KNOW. I WAS JUST SAYING I SEE WHY THEY ARE MAD...EVEN IF THEY DID GO ABOUT IT THE WRONG WAY.
Oh, haha, I thought you were being sarcastic what with the caps and everything. I do understand why they are angered immensely by this, but by blowing things up they are presenting themselves as exactly what the cartoons depicted them as; extremists who bomb things.

[lostntheseethru]

Oh, haha, I thought you were being sarcastic what with the caps and everything. I do understand why they are angered immensely by this, but by blowing things up they are presenting themselves as exactly what the cartoons depicted them as; extremists who bomb things.
OH NO. I HAVE TO LEAVE THE CAPS ON HERE AT WORK AT THIS COMPUTER

[R7265ab]

Yes, but thats always how riots start, back in I think 92 there was a big LA riot because some white cops were acquited in the beating a of black guy, yes having a riot was unjust but that happens, and I dont think the overreaction condones the behavior of the newspapers printing that.

[selftitled85]

it was completely irresponsible and retarded that they would do such a thing.

[Justin_stacy]

The depection is the actual wrong doing not jsut how they depict it, thats what you don't seem to be getting. Any depiction of Muhammed without a white cloak or in a historical painting is obscene to them.

Again what you fail to grasp is it doesn't matter. I can guarantee you that none of the artist cared. The Cartoons were not made to appease Muslims or show the positive sides of Islam, they were made to make a poignant argument/statement about what Islam has become in recent years. And to take it one step further, I don't think anyone disagrees with the Arab world’s feeling of anger about the cartoons, but the fact is being mad and acting like brainless fools are two totally different outcomes that do not require one another. You can be mad and still act like a sane individual.

Do you think the Piss Christ was made to honor Christianity? Of course not.....stop defending stupidity. There is no justifiable excuse for the Muslim world’s response, so quit trying to make one up.

[R7265ab]

Again what you fail to grasp is it doesn't matter. I can guarantee you that none of the artist cared. The Cartoons were not made to appease Muslims or show the positive sides of Islam, they were made to make a poignant argument/statement about what Islam has become in recent years. And to take it one step further, I don't think anyone disagrees with the Arab world’s feeling of anger about the cartoons, but the fact is being mad and acting like brainless fools are two totally different outcomes that do not require one another. You can be mad and still act like a sane individual.

Do you think the Piss Christ was made to honor Christianity? Of course not.....stop defending stupidity. There is no justifiable excuse for the Muslim world’s response, so quit trying to make one up. I wasn't justifying their response, I was trying to explain how they see it. Since people dont understand the severity of that .

[VinnyVegas]

I think we should all learn Arabic before we begin criticizing the people. Who knows what their corrupt news agencies are telling them to help incite the hatred. They are acting on the information they have available to them, which is most likely incorrect.

Also, the news tends to cover the people who are irrational. For example: If you were to get your view of America from CNN, you would think America has a very large murderous black population. This isn't the case, but the news makes it seem that way. I have a feeling we are only getting half of the story (the angry Arab half). What about the millions of Arabs who don't give a shit???

[mps]

I think we should all learn Arabic before we begin criticizing the people. Who knows what their corrupt news agencies are telling them to help incite the hatred. They are acting on the information they have available to them, which is most likely incorrect.

Also, the news tends to cover the people who are irrational. For example: If you were to get your view of America from CNN, you would think America has a very large murderous black population. This isn't the case, but the news makes it seem that way. I have a feeling we are only getting half of the story (the angry Arab half). What about the millions of Arabs who don't give a shit???
Well, it is Muslims that we are talking about here, not Arabs. Nevertheless, I understand what you are saying to an extent. It is true that many people have also turned up at protests, to protest peacefully, only to be met by groups of people rallying everyone else up and encouraging extremists to take action. A lot of Muslims are also outraged at this (as is the West), because there is no need for violence in a situation like this.

[VinnyVegas]

Thank you for politely pointing out my mistake; Arabs are not necessarily Muslim. I also agree that the whole situation is totally insane. It is sad that people have/will die over this silly incident.

[mps]

Thank you for politely pointing out my mistake; Arabs are not necessarily Muslim. I also agree that the whole situation is totally insane. It is sad that people have/will die over this silly incident.
The cartoons were done (as previously mentioned I'm sure) to depict what has become of Islam, or more so what many Muslims are perceived as by a lot of the world as of late - extremists, suicide bombers, and whatnot. The irony is, that in their retalliation, they are portraying themselves as exactly that.

[dai the flu]

arab newspapers are now holding contests for the best cartoon making fun of the holocaust, offering prizes to the winners. seriously.
someone find the news link, im too lazy.

[lostntheseethru]

arab newspapers are now holding contests for the best cartoon making fun of the holocaust, offering prizes to the winners. seriously.
someone find the news link, im too lazy.
like that hasnt been done before...

[dai the flu]

here's the article
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060207/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_cartoons_2

[Justin_stacy]

I was justifying their response, I was trying to explain how they see it. Since people dont understand the severity of that .

Well if that's the case it’s a different story, I got that you were trying to justify their actions, but if you weren't I apology for the assertion.

[Dan Hollister]

1) Any non-Muslim is not bound by the rules of Islam. Period. Just as some Jews may not eat pork, or Jehovah's Witnesses don't like blood transfusions, they still have no right to impose that standard on anyone else. Similarly, the Muslims may hold that standard to the members of their own church, but they cannot hold that standard to all of humanity.

Let's take, say, the Catholic church. If you do something really really stupid, you can be excommunicated. You are no longer a Catholic, you can no longer be Catholic, you can no longer step foot inside the Catholic church. But they do not throw stones at you and light your house on fire. They kick you out. End of story. The Muslims cannot expect that non-Muslims will abide by their beliefs.

2) It does not matter what the cartoons were depicting or why; nobody should have to give a reason as to why they drew a cartoon. Even if the cartoons were INTENDED to piss Muslims off, that's still their right to do so.

3) There's depictions of Mohammed EVERYWHERE. Do a little research. Many of our museums have paintings of Mohammed that were created, bought, sold, and displayed in the Middle East. Granted, some leave a blank face on him, BUT not all of them hide it, and even those that do are still depicting someone obvioulsy meant to be Mohammed. And these depictions are being bought and sold illegally on the streets of Middle Eastern countries on a daily basis.

And that's that. In the United States and Europe, YOU ARE FREE TO SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT, OFFENSIVE OR NOT. End of story. The rest does not matter.

[Dan Hollister]

Oh, and possibly the most important thing... I think this event brought out the true colors of radical Islam. If anyone was to believe that radical Islam is not violent, dangerous, or out of control, they're sure smacking themselves in the face now. (Or at least they should be.)

[R7265ab]

1) Any non-Muslim is not bound by the rules of Islam. Period. Just as some Jews may not eat pork, or Jehovah's Witnesses don't like blood transfusions, they still have no right to impose that standard on anyone else. Similarly, the Muslims may hold that standard to the members of their own church, but they cannot hold that standard to all of humanity.


3) There's depictions of Mohammed EVERYWHERE. Do a little research. Many of our museums have paintings of Mohammed that were created, bought, sold, and displayed in the Middle East. Granted, some leave a blank face on him, BUT not all of them hide it, and even those that do are still depicting someone obvioulsy meant to be Mohammed. And these depictions are being bought and sold illegally on the streets of Middle Eastern countries on a daily basis.

And that's that. In the United States and Europe, YOU ARE FREE TO SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT, OFFENSIVE OR NOT. End of story. The rest does not matter.
In response to 1: Thats like saying ok lets go holding up a sign that says BLACK PEOPLE ARE ******S FUCK THEM FUCKING WASTES OF LIFE, becuase I mean I'm not black so I shouldn't respect them

Regarding 3. Like I in Islam historical depictions are fine, read up before you post.

[R7265ab]

Well if that's the case it’s a different story, I got that you were trying to justify their actions, but if you weren't I apology for the assertion.
No problem, fun debate. Also I meant "wasn't justifying", not "was" in that sentence

[Dan Hollister]

In response to 1: Thats like saying ok lets go holding up a sign that says BLACK PEOPLE ARE ******S FUCK THEM FUCKING WASTES OF LIFE, becuase I mean I'm not black so I should respect them

Thats a horrible analogy. The cartoonists did not draw anything that in any way shape or form means "Muslims are fucking wastes of life." The cartoons were nothing but a parody, which is much different. Parody is arguably a very important part of modern media. Black people are parodied all the time in movies, skits, stand-up comedy... Hell, they parody themselves most of the time. There is nothing disrespectful or serious about parody. Do Republicans light things on fire when Bush is parodied in a cartoon? Do Catholics throw rocks at people when the Pope is parodied?

I'm not going to back down on this. There is just simply no defense for the actions these Muslims are doing, none whatsoever. The cartoonists did nothing wrong, and it would be completely absurd for anyone to actually think that the riots and deaths being experienced over this event are the fault of anyone except the Muslims who are reacting this way.

[Cal Smith]

it's simple.........

there obviously should be some understanding in one's culture and religion before doing things. That ecspecially holds true when that something (like the cartoon) is seen by thousands of people. On the other hand, there should be understanding coming from the other side too.

The cartoonist may be able to plea ignorance in this case. He might have not known the importance of not portraying muhammed (same for the paper).

[wessa]

they are upset that other people that arent muslim show caricatures of mohammed, because it is their belief that people should not make pictures of (according to them) God's last and greatest prophet,

well if that's the case, since i believe that people should not blow up buses full of innocent people, kidnap people and slaughter them, and show a general hatred toward whole religious groups, i believe that its time for the muslims to stop doing that, you know, because thats my belief



just a quick point, i have started to realize how scary it is to be a jew in israel, your country is basically surrounded by muslim countries, and many of these muslims despise your faith and discount the holocaust, i honostly pray for the safety of jews in the holy land because i feel like they are alone

[Justin_stacy]

No problem, fun debate. Also I meant "wasn't justifying", not "was" in that sentence
i was afraid i'd come off looking like a dick if i pointed that out......

[Dan Hollister]

Well-said, wessa.

The fact is that we simply cannot just "be respectful" of everyone. Suppose I had my own religion where, say, the late and great director Stanley Kubrick was the key figure. And let's say that I decide that nobody is allowed to depict him doing anything other than directing a film. I find it sacreligious to depict him doing any other task than directing one of his movies.

So what if I did? Does that mean the rest of the world must oblige? And even moreso, does that give me the right to BLOW SHIT UP if they don't? The truth is that we should be respectful if we can, but we cannot give up our civil liberties in order to avoid pissing some people off. As I said before, parody is important in modern media, even if it occassionally offends people.

Did anyone stop to remember that we're talking about cartoons published in a DANISH newspaper? Why on earth should the people of Denmark take the Middle East into consideration before publishing an article? As far as I know, Denmark is run by the Danish people, and the laws apply to them. Not to radical Muslims from other parts of the world.

As a people, we simply cannot eliminate everything deemed offensive, because the truth is that everyone offends someone. There is no point in having free speech if it doesn't include the ability to freely say something that someone else disagrees with.

[duffe]

Yes but you don't see Christians running round blowing people/things up.
They USED to... Remember a loooooooooooooong time ago.

[Andy]

Just to inform, the norwegian "newspaper" that published the cartoons here is a radical christian newsletter, and the editor included them only to create a reaction. Atleast in his case, it can hardly be a discussion about free speech.

[dai the flu]

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/religion

yeah, they're crazy. there's no rationalizing this. it no longer has anything to do with cartoons. they just wanted a reason to blow shit up.

[R7265ab]

Thats a horrible analogy. The cartoonists did not draw anything that in any way shape or form means "Muslims are fucking wastes of life." The cartoons were nothing but a parody, which is much different. Parody is arguably a very important part of modern media. Black people are parodied all the time in movies, skits, stand-up comedy... Hell, they parody themselves most of the time. There is nothing disrespectful or serious about parody. Do Republicans light things on fire when Bush is parodied in a cartoon? Do Catholics throw rocks at people when the Pope is parodied?

I'm not going to back down on this. There is just simply no defense for the actions these Muslims are doing, none whatsoever. The cartoonists did nothing wrong, and it would be completely absurd for anyone to actually think that the riots and deaths being experienced over this event are the fault of anyone except the Muslims who are reacting this way.

AGAIN, read my posts. I am not trying to justify the reaction of the Muslim Community but rather trying to prove that it was a huge mistake to print those cartoons.

So what if it was a parody, personally how would you like it someone made a "parody" of you, that had you with a sign around your neck saying "white trash" and then publsihed it all around the globe. Would you be angry? Yes. Sure, the point of a parody is to push the envelope in a humourous way. But while the whole world might be laughing you're not.

When was the last time you talked to a muslim person about their beliefs or the last time you took a class in Islam?

[R7265ab]

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/religion

yeah, they're crazy. there's no rationalizing this. it no longer has anything to do with cartoons. they just wanted a reason to blow shit up. Shut Up. Read. http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-02-07-faith-speech-understanding_x.htm

Again no one here is rationalizing it, but you should understand their anger.

[lostntheseethru]

Shut Up. Read. http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-02-07-faith-speech-understanding_x.htm

Again no one here is rationalizing it, but you should understand their anger.there is no way to understand the anger...especially when its spiraled this far out of hand. its ridiculous.

[R7265ab]

there is no way to understand the anger...especially when its spiraled this far out of hand. its ridiculous.
Are you implying that it was ok to print those cartoons?

[Cal Smith]

Shut Up. Read. http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-02-07-faith-speech-understanding_x.htm

Again no one here is rationalizing it, but you should understand their anger.

I agree with him.......a lot of them are not about the cartoon

[Cal Smith]

AGAIN, read my posts. I am not trying to justify the reaction of the Muslim Community but rather trying to prove that it was a huge mistake to print those cartoons.

So what if it was a parody, personally how would you like it someone made a "parody" of you, that had you with a sign around your neck saying "white trash" and then publsihed it all around the globe. Would you be angry? Yes. Sure, the point of a parody is to push the envelope in a humourous way. But while the whole world might be laughing you're not.

When was the last time you talked to a muslim person about their beliefs or the last time you took a class in Islam?

SNL, Leno, etc....., etc.......

[R7265ab]

SNL, Leno, etc....., etc.......
Which parodies politcal and public figures. Your Point?

[Cal Smith]

Which parodies politcal and public figures. Your Point?

You're talking about parodies based on individuals and asking how we would feel.........well they occur all the time.

Also I'd point out that many of these protests, and riots goign on now have involved the burning of crosses and the star of david.

[R7265ab]

You're talking about parodies based on individuals and asking how we would feel.........well they occur all the time.

Also I'd point out that many of these protests, and riots goign on now have involved the burning of crosses and the star of david.

Private individuals and religious figures are different.

Again I am not rationilizing the protest, actaully I think they are stupid and go against the message of Islam.

However muslims believe that Idol worship is a "sin", while Christians wear Christ on their necks. So they obviously don't have a problem with depictions of Christ.

For the record, I am agnostic.

[Cal Smith]

Private individuals and religious figures are different.

Again I am not rationilizing the protest, actaully I think they are stupid and go against the message of Islam.

However muslims believe that Idol worship is a "sin", while Christians wear Christ on their necks. So they obviously don't have a problem with depictions of Christ.

For the record, I am agnostic.

I really dont know what your point is in the end?

I dont think many would argue that it was in poor taste, either by accident or on purpose. On the other hand, I think they should be able to draw a thousand of them and not have to tolerate people trying to kill them for it.

[R7265ab]

Ok people understand this, it is completely obscene to depict muhammed in any non historical way. It is one of the worst offenses to their religion. The respsonses to this thread shows the complete ignorance of most people. Imagining someone smashing a depection of jesus christ stepping on it burning it filming and distributing it, and that is not even close the the severity of it. The fact that they rudely depicted it should adds mroe flame to the fire. Right to free speach does not free people form responsibility of their actions.

I wasn't justifying their response, I was trying to explain how they see it. Since
people dont understand the severity of that .

AGAIN, read my posts. I am not trying to justify the reaction of the Muslim Community but rather trying to prove that it was a huge mistake to print those cartoons.

So what if it was a parody, personally how would you like it someone made a "parody" of you, that had you with a sign around your neck saying "white trash" and then publsihed it all around the globe. Would you be angry? Yes. Sure, the point of a parody is to push the envelope in a humourous way. But while the whole world might be laughing you're not.

When was the last time you talked to a muslim person about their beliefs or the last time you took a class in Islam? ....

[Cal Smith]

....

Like i said.........i dont think many would argue with what you're saying.

Obviously, they see it as obscene, and obviously it was a mistake.

[R7265ab]

Like i said.........i dont think many would argue with what you're saying.

Obviously, they see it as obscene, and obviously it was a mistake.

That post was just to show what my point was as you asked, now we're on the same page. It just angered me how some people feel that these cartoons are perfectly fine and are just humourous.

But yes obscenity should not be starting riots.

Hopefully this won't result in WW3, however if it doesn't calm down soon....

[Cal Smith]

That post was just to show what my point was as you asked, now we're on the same page. It just angered me how some people feel that these cartoons are perfectly fine and are just humourous.

But yes obscenity should not be starting riots.

Hopefully this won't result in WW3, however if it doesn't calm down soon....

I think (dont want to speak for everyone else) that they are fine in the sense that they should be able to draw them all day, everday. From the sense of being sensitive to a culture or religion then no they're not, but you can list a million things that the muslim community has done to themselves and to other religions that are not as well.

And this has gone far beyond the cartoon now. I'd even argue that it's not even the heart of the debate now.

[R7265ab]

I think (dont want to speak for everyone else) that they are fine in the sense that they should be able to draw them all day, everday. From the sense of being sensitive to a culture or religion then no they're not, but you can list a million things that the muslim community has done to themselves and to other religions that are not as well.

And this has gone far beyond the cartoon now. I'd even argue that it's not even the heart of the debate now.
Yep it was just the spark

[Cal Smith]

It's like Oreilly pointed out. The NY Times refuses to run the pictures, yet a couple years back they defened and artist who had the Virgin Mary with porn pictures and shit around her. The called it "artist experimentation". There is such a double standard going on it's sickening.

Perhaps Christians and Jews should burn some places down to get any help.

[dai the flu]

Shut Up. Read. http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-02-07-faith-speech-understanding_x.htm

Again no one here is rationalizing it, but you should understand their anger.

yeah i read it. whats your point? a danish newspaper printed some cartoons they felt were offensive, so they start attacking U.S. bases?
no, im not buying it. this is no longer about those stupid cartoons, they're using this as a free pass to do whatever they want/attack whoever they want. there's no "understanding" needed here. if they continue to act like uncivilized animals, then i'll continue to view them as such.

[lostntheseethru]

Are you implying that it was ok to print those cartoons?
maybe you should go back and read what ive already said instead of making me repeat myself....thanks

[FsAs234]

Heres the deal on this. These cartoons are saying something that may be rude to the Muslim community, but there just cartoons. After this happened the Islamic president complained to the danish and said you have to get rid of all these papers there not allowed, and the Danish president just said, i can't, we have freedom of speach, which they dont' have in the middle east. After this happened, Muslims paraded around hide parks with signs saying those who depict Mohammed should get there hands and heads chopped off, so these people aren't doing much to help them seem like a smart culture. Now they are retaliating with making comics about the Holocaust which is just wrong, and it shows that these people are animals and sine they act like animals they deserve to be treated like animals

[Great Lakes]

Here in England we've had protests from the large muslim community in this country. Some banners read as follows: "Europe you will pay. Fantastic 4 are on there way" Fantastic 4 in reference to the 7th of July bombers, "Europe is the cancer: Islam is the answer" That ones catchy but still pretty offensive, "Behead those who insult islam/Kill those who insult islam" i dont understand how this makes them sound sane, or like followers of the "religion of peace". The most famous of the protesters actions however wasn't a sign, a young islamic student wandered the street of london wearing a "suicide bombing jacket", this made me feel sick, after what has happened in recent months and years i felt this was extremly dis-tasteful and i hope the fucker pays. Also pictures circulated papers and news channel of a muslim lady holding a baby, wearing an "I Heart Al Qaeda" hat.

In my opinon all this acheives nothing but a justification for these cartoons.

And the whole offence thing. Did the jews start bombing Germans after the holocaust. NO. get over it they're fucking cartoons not a reason to kill INNOCENT people.

[Love As Arson]

Freedom of speech comes with responsibility.

[lostntheseethru]

Here in England we've had protests from the large muslim community in this country. Some banners read as follows: "Europe you will pay. Fantastic 4 are on there way" Fantastic 4 in reference to the 7th of July bombers, "Europe is the cancer: Islam is the answer" That ones catchy but still pretty offensive, "Behead those who insult islam/Kill those who insult islam" i dont understand how this makes them sound sane, or like followers of the "religion of peace". The most famous of the protesters actions however wasn't a sign, a young islamic student wandered the street of london wearing a "suicide bombing jacket", this made me feel sick, after what has happened in recent months and years i felt this was extremly dis-tasteful and i hope the fucker pays. Also pictures circulated papers and news channel of a muslim lady holding a baby, wearing an "I Heart Al Qaeda" hat.

In my opinon all this acheives nothing but a justification for these cartoons.

And the whole offence thing. Did the jews start bombing Germans after the holocaust. NO. get over it they're fucking cartoons not a reason to kill INNOCENT people.
i honestly think they are using the cartoons as excuse to do whatever they want.

[lostntheseethru]

Freedom of speech comes with responsibility.
you're right but i dont understand how that fits in here...

[Cal Smith]

Freedom of speech comes with responsibility.

Give me a break. I agree with you said but just last week you were defendig someone like Kanye West for posing as Jesus for rolling stone. What's the difference?

[Love As Arson]

Give me a break. I agree with you said but just last week you were defendig someone like Kanye West for posing as Jesus for rolling stone. What's the difference?
Well, for one, we know that certain factions of Christians will not react in a violent manner. We know that the climate is not such that people may be harmed. A much more comparable situation would be if an author wrote a scathing article on Martin Luther King right after the LA riots. It would simply be irresponsible when you take into consideration the climate around the social group you are commenting on.

[Cal Smith]

Well, for one, we know that certain factions of Christians will not react in a violent manner. We know that the climate is not such that people may be harmed. A much more comparable situation would be if an author wrote a scathing article on Martin Luther King right after the LA riots. It would simply be irresponsible when you take into consideration the climate around the social group you are commenting on.

Oh, personal responsibility with speech only comes when the ones being spoke about might or will react violtently? That's dumb the dumbest thing I've heard in awhile.

[Love As Arson]

Oh, personal responsibility with speech only comes when the ones being spoke about might or will react violtently?
I never said that. However, your inability to draw a distinction between Kanye West's photoshoot and this is quite, well, astounding.

[Cal Smith]

I never said that. However, your inability to draw a distinction between Kanye West's photoshoot and this is quite, well, astounding.

You didnt have to outright say it because it was pretty implied.

Both incidences are basically the same concept. Two different depictions of two extremely important figures of two seperate religions, and both are offensive to the respective religion. Only difference is you take up for one and the other you place blame on the other.

What you are arguing is the same concept as...........don't pick on someone unless they won't fight back, or you can beat them up.

Anyone else see this?

[R7265ab]

Freedom of speech comes with responsibility.

Summed up my point nicely.


But yes the reaction is rediculous.

[Love As Arson]

You didnt have to outright say it because it was pretty implied.

Both incidences are basically the same concept.
Nope.
Two different depictions of two extremely important figures of two seperate religions, and both are offensive to the respective religion.
In one, you simply had someone dressed up as Christ, in the other you have the important figure being depicted in a bad light. The only similarity I can see is that fractions of these religions got angry. As is their right.
Only difference is you take up for one and the other you place blame on the other.


Never blamed Christianity.


What you are arguing is the same concept as...........don't pick on someone unless they won't fight back, or you can beat them up.
It's called taking the cultures into context.

[Lueda Alia]

Freedom of speech comes with responsibility.
So it's the newspaper's fault then?

This is what I posted on another forum I go to:

I can't even put down in words everything that I'm feeling right now. I'm way too angry and disappointed in how people are reacting. But sadly, it does not surprise me and that's what hurts the most. You would never see any of my relatives, who are muslim, react the way these people are. Nothing justifies their behavior. Absolutely nothing.

There are so many cartoons of Jesus that are much, much worse than those drawings. And those cartoons are all over the internet, but you don't see anyone acting the way these people are. It's so absurd. It makes me mad.

So why don't these people start these kind of protests over the fact that Terrorists kill others in the name of Allah? Is that not a sin too?

I don't buy any of this. I'm sorry, but I really don't, because if these people cared so much about how others are toward their religion, such things as Al-Qaeda would not exist right now. This is simply an excuse for them to act the way they are.

[Lueda Alia]

Nope.

In one, you simply had someone dressed up as Christ, in the other you have the important figure being depicted in a bad light. The only similarity I can see is that fractions of these religions got angry. As is their right.

Never blamed Christianity.

It's called taking the cultures into context.
Are you saying that just because some things are offensive to Muslims, others should not do them? Should we all live our lives according to their "rules"? Or any other religion's rules? Give me a break. These people have no excuses for their actions. And that's it.

I hate saying all this but it's completely true. These people are making me so sick.

[Love As Arson]

So it's the newspaper's fault then?
Is it their fault? No, of course not. However, it is quite simply not intelligent, given the climate in the Muslim world, to create such cartoons. Again, I support their right to create and publish them, but I am questioning the intelligence of such an action. Also, freedom of speech is not an absolute right. For example, I cannot scream, "Fire!", in a crowded theatre, because it can cause harm to a variety of people.

[Love As Arson]

Are you saying that just because some things are offensive to Muslims, others should not do them?
Nope.
Should we all live our lives according to their "rules"?
Nope. We should, however, be conscious of their culture.
Give me a break. These people have no excuses for their actions. And that's it.

I hate saying all this but it's completely true. These people are making me so sick.
To me, their seems to be a misrepresentation in the media that the majority of Muslims are responding in a violent manner. That quite simply is not true. These people do not represent all Muslims. It should be noted that their were non-violent responses to the cartoons, such as, boycots. Many Muslims support this route. Furthermore, this is not indicative of their religion, rather this outrage is what one would see if some American figures image was desecreated.

[Love As Arson]

I can't even put down in words everything that I'm feeling right now. I'm way too angry and disappointed in how people are reacting. But sadly, it does not surprise me and that's what hurts the most. /QUOTE]
A small group of people.
[QUOTE=MorningStar x0x]
You would never see any of my relatives, who are muslim, react the way these people are.
Irrelevant.

Nothing justifies their behavior. Absolutely nothing.
No one said their actions were just. But, let us use logic with such things. Like I said, do you imagine it would be smart to print a picture depicting Martin Luther King Jr. in a bad light right after the riots in LA? Of course not. They have a right to do so, and I endorse it, but it is not intelligent.

So why don't these people start these kind of protests over the fact that Terrorists kill others in the name of Allah? Is that not a sin too?
Probably because this small faction that reacted in such a manner are the same people who endorse them.



I don't buy any of this. I'm sorry, but I really don't, because if these people cared so much about how others are toward their religion, such things as Al-Qaeda would not exist right now. This is simply an excuse for them to act the way they are
Hasty generalisation.

[dai the flu]

you know, you'd almost have a decent argument if the muslims had confined their attacks and actions to those that made the cartoons. but they havent. they've now turned to attacks on U.S. embassies over these cartoons. wheres the justification of that? how exactly does the U.S. factor into their retaliation over their hurt feelings?
again, they dont care about these cartoons, they just want any reason at all to go all savage on us.

[LostSymphonies]

it's amazing how what started as the cradle of civlization can be so uncivilized..makes me glad there is an ocean between us

[selftitled85]

Summed up my point nicely.


But yes the reaction is rediculous.

no its not.

the iranis are doing a great idea. running a contest on best cartoon about the holocaust will prove a point. if people freak out then well...you know how they feel.

[selftitled85]

i just find it funny that all the arab countries blame it on us. really dumb


but condoleezzas words were completely baseless and retarded. she should be shot for saying them...

[Love As Arson]

you know, you'd almost have a decent argument if the muslims had confined their attacks and actions to those that made the cartoons. but they havent. they've now turned to attacks on U.S. embassies over these cartoons. wheres the justification of that?.
Why would I justify their actions?
how exactly does the U.S. factor into their retaliation over their hurt feelings?
They have an anger at the west in general, so when a western nation wrongs them, in their mind, they lash out at us a whole, with the US being the main target, as it it the most powerful western nation.

[Lueda Alia]

no its not.

the iranis are doing a great idea. running a contest on best cartoon about the holocaust will prove a point. if people freak out then well...you know how they feel.
Um.. how is that a great idea? The Jews have nothing to do with what happened.

That is just a ridiculous thing for you to say.

Oh and did I mention that they're giving out money to whoever kills the cartoonist, and a Danish/Norwegian/German soldier? Ah yes, this "reaction" is not ridiculous at all.

[selftitled85]

Um.. how is that a great idea? The Jews have nothing to do with what happened.

That is just a ridiculous thing for you to say.

no. its a subject that they hold dear (though painful) close to them. all jewish people believe that the holocaust was an awful thing. obviously it is. the arabs hold their religion very close to them. if you knock one part that is sacred everyone will step up to protect it.

[Lueda Alia]

no. its a subject that they hold dear (though painful) close to them. all jewish people believe that the holocaust was an awful thing. obviously it is. the arabs hold their religion very close to them. if you knock one part that is sacred everyone will step up to protect it.
And they're going to protect it by killing other people?

[R7265ab]

you know, you'd almost have a decent argument if the muslims had confined their attacks and actions to those that made the cartoons. but they havent. they've now turned to attacks on U.S. embassies over these cartoons. wheres the justification of that? how exactly does the U.S. factor into their retaliation over their hurt feelings?
again, they dont care about these cartoons, they just want any reason at all to go all savage on us.
Actually the philidelpia inquierer reprinted them. But the muslims hsouldnt be killing people

[Dan Hollister]

So what if it was a parody, personally how would you like it someone made a "parody" of you, that had you with a sign around your neck saying "white trash" and then publsihed it all around the globe. Would you be angry? Yes. Sure, the point of a parody is to push the envelope in a humourous way. But while the whole world might be laughing you're not.

I can't even believe I'm reading this on here.

You're saying we should squelch freedom of speech in order to make sure we don't offend people IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD? Someone, somewhere, will be offended no matter WHAT is said. I could walk outside my house and say "my, the sky looks ugly today," and someone out there will inevitably pissed off.

There is no such thing as free speech if you are not allowed to disagree or offend.

When was the last time you talked to a muslim person about their beliefs or the last time you took a class in Islam?

My entire family is Lebanese or of Lebanese descent. Many in my family are Muslims, and those who aren't still must know quite a great deal about it. And beyond the knowledge I've gained from that, I have indeed taken 3 classes on the subject.

But that's not the point. The point is that IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE MUSLIMS BELIEVE. That's the fucking point, right there. The world simply cannot cater to their beliefs, or anyone else's. The bottom line is that the Muslims need to learn to deal with the fact that in other nations, people are allowed to draw cartoons about whatever they want.

If the Muslim nations do not like this, they can ban cartooning in their own countries. But they cannot, and should not, have any influence in nations that they don't even live in, or near.

[Frequency]

These Muslims are both hypocrites, immature and plain outright stupid. First of all they should realize that the newspaper isn't affiliated with the Danish government or the economy. They start changing the Danish pastries to something else. After they trash the Danish embassy they start attacting the US government. Wtf? Their hypocrites because they constantly put anti-semitic and anti-American cartoons in their own newspapers.

[open mind]

just people over reacting to something because they feel pressured, what better way to blow of steam then to take it out on those with no military power?

[rocktometal]

muslims need to get a sence a humor (no offence to the general muslim american population), i mean the pope says something and they freak out about that too.

[thejetstolehome]

muslims need to get a sence a humor (no offence to the general muslim american population), i mean the pope says something and they freak out about that too.

because what the pope said was a quote about islam being built soley by the sword. what if someone said the same thing about christianity?

[FsAs234]

because what the pope said was a quote about islam being built soley by the sword. what if someone said the same thing about christianity?

well they are, so theres not much to argue about

[Justin_stacy]

because what the pope said was a quote about islam being built soley by the sword. what if someone said the same thing about christianity?

Christianity is mocked regularly on TV and in print, so called "art" like the piss Christ and feces Marry is made with public money and facist groups like the aclu tend to solely attack christian traditions and yet i have yet to see murder on the part of Christians in “protest“, I've yet to see the insanity that takes place in the middle east reenacted in middle America. You can’t compare what isn’t comparable. And nothing modern compares to the muslim Middle East (nor is it the popes fault when idiots take him purposely out of context.).

[thejetstolehome]

Christianity is mocked regularly on TV and in print, so called "art" like the piss Christ and feces Marry is made with public money and facist groups like the aclu tend to solely attack christian traditions and yet i have yet to see murder on the part of Christians in “protest“, I've yet to see the insanity that takes place in the middle east reenacted in middle America. You can’t compare what isn’t comparable. And nothing modern compares to the muslim Middle East (nor is it the popes fault when idiots take him purposely out of context.).

what about the crusades? the spanish inquisition? the "conversion" of the native populations in the united states and the rest of north america? those were insanely violent acts carried out in the name of the church. yes they were a long time ago but they can't be ignored.

[rocktometal]

the argument is not whether or not christians have done things evil, because they of course have (the holaucaust would have been a better example then the inquisition, although a muslim leader ive heard of says the holaucaust never happened hint:he's from iran). the real point is that the muslims need to relax about their religion, jews are constantly made fun of, christians were terribly persecuted in the 1st century by the romans, and even the great mohammed was persecuted in his home town while spreading islam. persecution is a part of religion, you just got to deal with it.

[Justin_stacy]

what about the crusades? the spanish inquisition? the "conversion" of the native populations in the united states and the rest of north america? those were insanely violent acts carried out in the name of the church. yes they were a long time ago but they can't be ignored.

Again I said MODERN times. I can't think of the last time a Muslim was beheaded because of some cartoon that published. I can't think of the last mosques that was burned down because of what some man in robe said. The underlining point is that times are different now, you can't justify or defend savagery on the part of the Muslim world because 4 or 500 hundred years ago Christians also participated in the similar acts, it doesn't work that way. Times are not the same, knowledge is not the same, people's view of the world and humanity is not the same.

[thejetstolehome]

the argument is not whether or not christians have done things evil, because they of course have (the holaucaust would have been a better example then the inquisition, although a muslim leader ive heard of says the holaucaust never happened hint:he's from iran). the real point is that the muslims need to relax about their religion, jews are constantly made fun of, christians were terribly persecuted in the 1st century by the romans, and even the great mohammed was persecuted in his home town while spreading islam. persecution is a part of religion, you just got to deal with it.

i think it's hard for them to relax about the religion because it's such a deeply rooted personal thing for them. i think it's easier for some jews or christians/catholics to take their religion lightly because those religions, for the majority of the members of those faiths, it's not a daily ritual. not many christians/catholics i know go to church every day and the same goes for jews and temple. it's hard to take something like that lightly.

i'm not trying to justify what they did--it was terrible. the cartoons were printed in the spirit of free speech which is a good thing. the "solution," so to speak, is much more complicated than muslims taking things more lightly.

[rocktometal]

i think it's hard for them to relax about the religion because it's such a deeply rooted personal thing for them. i think it's easier for some jews or christians/catholics to take their religion lightly because those religions, for the majority of the members of those faiths, it's not a daily ritual. not many christians/catholics i know go to church every day and the same goes for jews and temple. it's hard to take something like that lightly.

i'm not trying to justify what they did--it was terrible. the cartoons were printed in the spirit of free speech which is a good thing. the "solution," so to speak, is much more complicated than muslims taking things more lightly.

good point