P.O.W.s

[Atomic Punk]

that is so horrible. i hope they dont show the videos out of respect for the soldier's famileies. that is seriously sick and twisted of whoever put it on the internet. i knew it would happen. please, nobody go to it and dont tell others how if you know. out of respect for the families of those in the video.

[The Nephilm]

or maybe it will show the public that war is actually a bad thing and not some easy chirade like the Bush administration has shown it to be.

[EmoMoose86]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
or maybe it will show the public that war is actually a bad thing and not some easy chirade like the Bush administration has shown it to be.

oh, the bush admin hasn't said this war is "easy" - it isn't.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by Atomic Punk
that is so horrible. i hope they dont show the videos out of respect for the soldier's famileies. that is seriously sick and twisted of whoever put it on the internet. i knew it would happen. please, nobody go to it and dont tell others how if you know. out of respect for the families of those in the video.


WAR is so horrible. I hope that Bush calls it off out of respect for the soldiers' families. It is seriously sick and twisted for anybody to seriously pursue this as an option. And with all my heart, I do pray for the safety of the POWs. One of them is a single mother, and another has a 4 year old son and 7 month old daughter. I can't imagine what their families are going through right now.

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by EmoMoose86
oh, the bush admin hasn't said this war is "easy" - it isn't.

They were claiming (along with you I might add) that they would have baghdad in a week. The American public was lulled into believing this would be an easy war, and now they are seeing that it isn't going to be.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
WAR is so horrible. I hope that Bush calls it off out of respect for the soldiers' families. It is seriously sick and twisted for anybody to seriously pursue this as an option. And with all my heart, I do pray for the safety of the POWs. One of them is a single mother, and another has a 4 year old son and 7 month old daughter. I can't imagine what their families are going through right now.

You want us to call of the war because a few soldiers have died?

[yeat182]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
They were claiming (along with you I might add) that they would have baghdad in a week. The American public was lulled into believing this would be an easy war, and now they are seeing that it isn't going to be.

the american public is stupid. the administration has said from the very begining of this war that it would take time, that it would not be easy, that there would be casualties, and yet, the people seemed shocked when soldiers are taken prisoner or are killed in action.

[Justin_stacy]

I think this just shows what brutal inhuman scum that saddums regime is, and i would hope that this show the world why this man must be stoped

[evil zach]

All war is inhumain. I don't care what side your on.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by yeat182
the american public is stupid. the administration has said from the very begining of this war that it would take time, that it would not be easy, that there would be casualties, and yet, the people seemed shocked when soldiers are taken prisoner or are killed in action.

I wouldn't say the american public is stupid, its just that the ones who make it on tv are: example. the protesters in SF, There are some smart protesters (although there # are probably few) but you never see them on tv, all you see on the news are the idiots breaking windows thinking that this will win them support.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by evil zach
All war is inhumain. I don't care what side your on.


it is inhumane, yet human nature....

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
I wouldn't say the american public is stupid, its just that the ones who make it on tv are: example. the protesters in SF, There are some smart protesters (although there # are probably few) but you never see them on tv, all you see on the news are the idiots breaking windows thinking that this will win them support.

yeah, they hurt their own cause

[evil zach]

I don't belive that human nature exists

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by evil zach
All war is inhumain. I don't care what side your on.

No its not, when you go to war to stop a dictator that tortures his own people (hittler , saddum, Hirieto (i think i spelled that wrong), or who commits mass murder, its not inhumain its just, yes inhumain things might happen but the war its self is not inhumain.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by evil zach
I don't belive that human nature exists

how so?

[Matthew]

Originally posted by yeat182
it is inhumane, yet human nature....

Oh ok! That makes it all better!

All wars are wrong. Right now George Bush is asking congress for $80 Billion to cover this war (CNN News, 03/23/03). That is rediculous. That money could go to any number of social programs or even those tax cuts you rednecks seem to love so much.

Why do we spend money killing people?

And we are off to a bad start on wiining over the civilians too. Over 200 wounded (again CNN, as of Sunday) Iraqi civilians and relief packages aren't expected for at least another 12-36 hours.

This isnt a cake-walk for us, and were putting the Iraqi's through
hell all so we can make them live like we do. ANd then we wonder why these people hate us.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by ScreamoEMOBoy
Oh ok! That makes it all better!

All wars are wrong. Right now George Bush is asking congress for $80 Billion to cover this war (CNN News, 03/23/03). That is rediculous. That money could go to any number of social programs or even those tax cuts you rednecks seem to love so much.

Why do we spend money killing people?

And we are off to a bad start on wiining over the civilians too. Over 200 wounded (again CNN, as of Sunday) Iraqi civilians and relief packages aren't expected for at least another 12-36 hours.

This isnt a cake-walk for us, and were putting the Iraqi's through
hell all so we can make them live like we do. ANd then we wonder why these people hate us.

i never said that made it alright, i was simply pointing out the fact that since the very begining of human existance there has been war, and despite how inhumane it is, it continues to follow man through time...

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by yeat182
You want us to call of the war because a few soldiers have died?

no, I mean for respect for all the soldiers and their families. None of them should be out there. The ones who are alive are putting themself in a dangerous situation that they don't need to be in, and the ones who have died have died for an unjust cause. The whole scenario is for shit.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by ScreamoEMOBoy
Oh ok! That makes it all better!

All wars are wrong. Right now George Bush is asking congress for $80 Billion to cover this war (CNN News, 03/23/03). That is rediculous. That money could go to any number of social programs or even those tax cuts you rednecks seem to love so much.

Why do we spend money killing people?

And we are off to a bad start on wiining over the civilians too. Over 200 wounded (again CNN, as of Sunday) Iraqi civilians and relief packages aren't expected for at least another 12-36 hours.

This isnt a cake-walk for us, and were putting the Iraqi's through
hell all so we can make them live like we do. ANd then we wonder why these people hate us.

"all wars are wrong" that is such an ignorant comment, yes some wars are bad, but alot of them are just and needed, i know its hard for you to understand but appeasement DOESN'T work, nor will it ever.

relief packages can't be delivered because Saddum planted mine in the bay (i cant remimber its name and my internet is slow tonight so im not even going to look) just so that we couldn't bring in the packages in a timely manner.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
no, I mean for respect for all the soldiers and their families. None of them should be out there. The ones who are alive are putting themself in a dangerous situation that they don't need to be in, and the ones who have died have died for an unjust cause. The whole scenario is for shit.


they are soldiers, it is their job to fight and if nessesary die. if they didn't want to be in a war, they shouldnt' have volunteered. my heart goes out to all the families and soldiers but you can't call of a war because there are a few casualities.

[nephthys]

Originally posted by evil zach
All war is inhumain. I don't care what side your on.

I concur.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
"all wars are wrong" that is such an ignorant comment, yes some wars are bad, but alot of them are just and needed, i know its hard for you to understand but appeasement DOESN'T work, nor will it ever.

relief packages can't be delivered because Saddum planted mine in the bay (i cant remimber its name and my internet is slow tonight so im not even going to look) just so that we couldn't bring in the packages in a timely manner.

yeah, there are definatly some wars that must be fought, it doesn't mean that it is pleasant, it is still a horrible thing, but it is less horrible than the alternative...

[Matthew]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
"all wars are wrong" that is such an ignorant comment


Its not ignorant. If ever want peace we actually have to work for it, not just have beauracrats ramble on about it between air-raids with no intent of ever achieving it.

Sure we may have our skirmishes now and then, but tis Iraq situation was not an unavoidable one. Its not like we are defending ourselves from an agressor - WE are the agressor. WE are being belligerent and militiaristic.

I will be glad that Saddam is out of power but this was the entirely wrong way to go about it. Bush, Bin Laden, Blair, and Saddam and any toher bomb-building bastard can go to hell for all I care, just so long as they dont take the innocent with them.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by yeat182
they are soldiers, it is their job to fight and if nessesary die. if they didn't want to be in a war, they shouldnt' have volunteered. my heart goes out to all the families and soldiers but you can't call of a war because there are a few casualities.

yeah, but i wonder how many of those soldiers would have volunteered if they had the money to go to college.

[yeat182]

WE are enforcing the rules the UN set up and decided to ignore...

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by ScreamoEMOBoy
Its not ignorant. If ever want peace we actually have to work for it, not just have beauracrats ramble on about it between air-raids with no intent of ever achieving it.

Sure we may have our skirmishes now and then, but tis Iraq situation was not an unavoidable one. Its not like we are defending ourselves from an agressor - WE are the agressor. WE are being belligerent and militiaristic.

I will be glad that Saddam is out of power but this was the entirely wrong way to go about it. Bush, Bin Laden, Blair, and Saddam and any toher bomb-building bastard can go to hell for all I care, just so long as they dont take the innocent with them.

See you act like this war is the only war that has ever happened, i have no problem when you say that this war wasn't needed or unjust, i dont agree with you, but i would at least i understand you, but when you post a broad term such as "all war are wrong," i find that ignorant (and i not tring it insult you in any way) because this world would be a much worse place if we hadn't fought, hitler, communism, tito, japan, ect ect. So not all wars are wrong, nor is this one but thats my opinion.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by bossydacow
yeah, but i wonder how many of those soldiers would have volunteered if they had the money to go to college.

again thats not the point you dont sign up for something if you dont want to take the consequences.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by ScreamoEMOBoy
Its not ignorant. If ever want peace we actually have to work for it, not just have beauracrats ramble on about it between air-raids with no intent of ever achieving it.

Sure we may have our skirmishes now and then, but tis Iraq situation was not an unavoidable one. Its not like we are defending ourselves from an agressor - WE are the agressor. WE are being belligerent and militiaristic.

I will be glad that Saddam is out of power but this was the entirely wrong way to go about it. Bush, Bin Laden, Blair, and Saddam and any toher bomb-building bastard can go to hell for all I care, just so long as they dont take the innocent with them.

What was the right way, then?

Also we weren't the agressors, remimber who started this whole thing.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
yeah, but i wonder how many of those soldiers would have volunteered if they had the money to go to college.


that is no excuse, if they didnt' want to fight a war, they shouldnt' have joined the military. there are ways to pay for college without joining the military. i have a friend that is from a very wealthy family and went to this weird private school. when he was graduating he DECIDED that he wanted to be a marine, he could have gone to any college that would take him, but he wanted to join the military, and he knows that means he will have to fight.his dad wrote a book about it (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2WYMX9ZBX6&isbn=0786710977&itm=1), about how the rich parents at his school wanted to have some meeting to discuss where the school went wrong, they asked "what is so wrong with this school that would make someone want to join the marines?". it is ridiculous. it was even on 20/20. some people join because they want to, not because they can't go to college.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
again thats not the point you dont sign up for something if you dont want to take the consequences.

you're wrong. My best friend is an hard-core catholic. that means anti-war. But her family doesn't have a lot of money. She is looking into joining the army so that she can pay for college. Army would never be an option if her parents had the money.

[yeat182]

here's that 20/20 article (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/US/2020_marineson030314.html)

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by bossydacow
you're wrong. My best friend is an hard-core catholic. that means anti-war. But her family doesn't have a lot of money. She is looking into joining the army so that she can pay for college. Army would never be an option if her parents had the money.

How am i wrong, it doesn't matter what religion you are if you USE the army for free college you owe them service theres no way around it. Its not a free ride.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by yeat182
that is no excuse, if they didnt' want to fight a war, they shouldnt' have joined the military. there are ways to pay for college without joining the military. i have a friend that is from a very wealthy family and went to this weird private school. when he was graduating he DECIDED that he wanted to be a marine, he could have gone to any college that would take him, but he wanted to join the military, and he knows that means he will have to fight.his dad wrote a book about it (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2WYMX9ZBX6&isbn=0786710977&itm=1), about how the rich parents at his school wanted to have some meeting to discuss where the school went wrong, they asked "what is so wrong with this school that would make someone want to join the marines?". it is ridiculous. it was even on 20/20. some people join because they want to, not because they can't go to college.

what about the marines appealed to your friend? Because I cannot understand why anybody in their right mind would ever join the marines when they had so many other options.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
How am i wrong, it doesn't matter what religion you are if you USE the army for free college you owe them service theres no way around it. Its not a free ride.

I'm just saying that it is against her religion and she would have never looked at that option if she had the money to pay for college. Its just an example.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by bossydacow
I'm just saying that it is against her religion and she would have never looked at that option if she had the money to pay for college. Its just an example.

I understand, but there are other ways to pay for college, scholarships, good grades, sports, paying for it your self (which is what im doing), community college.............so she had other options.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
See you act like this war is the only war that has ever happened, i have no problem when you say that this war wasn't needed or unjust, i dont agree with you, but i would at least i understand you, but when you post a broad term such as "all war are wrong," i find that ignorant (and i not tring it insult you in any way) because this world would be a much worse place if we hadn't fought, hitler, communism, tito, japan, ect ect. So not all wars are wrong, nor is this one but thats my opinion.

Ok. I think I understand now.

Let me rephrase what am I saying. There is no such thing as a good war. Say what you will, but there is always an alternative to war. Sometimes that alternative is just sitting there and letting yourself be annihilated, which is rediculous. However, at all times any possible steps to avoid war should be taken.

I feel those steps were not taken in this case. We were to eager to go to war, largely because we were given this image of a clean sweep of Iraq. The POW thing is horrible, but in a way it does have a purpose. It is showing people how horrible war is, and even an "easy war" like this can be risky, nad can devastate or claim the lives of many.

As bad as I feel for the families of the POW's, for the rest of the world this is a much needed eye-opener. We have grown desensitized. We saw war as an easy endeavor that would make everything better. War has consrquences.

And many pushing for war do so because they are immune to those consequences. No fat-ass beuracrat will go to war, none of their kids will be a POW. Same for oil execs. They have nothing to lose, so why not?

There is something to lose. We are seeing that now. War isnt easy, and it isnt fluffy, and it is wrong. While the intentions may be good, the war is NEVER justified.

There is a philosophy called telogy which siggests that the ends justify the means. I DO NOT support that philosophy. As good as the end result may be (and I'm not saying it will be) the war still remains an evil thing, a blemish to remain in our history books.

War is often "justified" by claims of self-defense ( I dont buy it) but going with that logic, this war isnt justified. Democracy cant work everywhere. Its a sad truth, but democracy has failed. Look at South America - lieration from colonial Spain has resulted in widespread povery and disease. Thats why regime change or end to communism isnt enough to justify a war to me.

Also, we demonize people like Saddam, but other atrocities are overlookecd by the US when we see it fit. Our "moral justification" can alter based on money or politics.

During WW2, Stalin killed just as many (if not more) than Hitler using similar methods. Stalin has not been demonized to the degree that Hitler has becasue he was on our side.

I hope this rambling incoherece has given some insight as to what i men when i say "all war is wrong." I am a pacifist, and I do think peace is feasible, but the first and most potent barier to it is this idea that our society has built that peace can never work and that antyone who says otherwise is a hippie or ***.

Thats why I am a pacifist.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
How am i wrong, it doesn't matter what religion you are if you USE the army for free college you owe them service theres no way around it. Its not a free ride.

I agree. The Army cant pay for everyone. If you dont intend to fight DONT TAKE THE MONEY.

[Justin_stacy]

Originally posted by ScreamoEMOBoy
Ok. I think I understand now.

Let me rephrase what am I saying. There is no such thing as a good war. Say what you will, but there is always an alternative to war. Sometimes that alternative is just sitting there and letting yourself be annihilated, which is rediculous. However, at all times any possible steps to avoid war should be taken.

I feel those steps were not taken in this case. We were to eager to go to war, largely because we were given this image of a clean sweep of Iraq. The POW thing is horrible, but in a way it does have a purpose. It is showing people how horrible war is, and even an "easy war" like this can be risky, nad can devastate or claim the lives of many.

As bad as I feel for the families of the POW's, for the rest of the world this is a much needed eye-opener. We have grown desensitized. We saw war as an easy endeavor that would make everything better. War has consrquences.

And many pushing for war do so because they are immune to those consequences. No fat-ass beuracrat will go to war, none of their kids will be a POW. Same for oil execs. They have nothing to lose, so why not?

There is something to lose. We are seeing that now. War isnt easy, and it isnt fluffy, and it is wrong. While the intentions may be good, the war is NEVER justified.

There is a philosophy called telogy which siggests that the ends justify the means. I DO NOT support that philosophy. As good as the end result may be (and I'm not saying it will be) the war still remains an evil thing, a blemish to remain in our history books.

War is often "justified" by claims of self-defense ( I dont buy it) but going with that logic, this war isnt justified. Democracy cant work everywhere. Its a sad truth, but democracy has failed. Look at South America - lieration from colonial Spain has resulted in widespread povery and disease. Thats why regime change or end to communism isnt enough to justify a war to me.

Also, we demonize people like Saddam, but other atrocities are overlookecd by the US when we see it fit. Our "moral justification" can alter based on money or politics.

During WW2, Stalin killed just as many (if not more) than Hitler using similar methods. Stalin has not been demonized to the degree that Hitler has becasue he was on our side.

I hope this rambling incoherece has given some insight as to what i men when i say "all war is wrong." I am a pacifist, and I do think peace is feasible, but the first and most potent barier to it is this idea that our society has built that peace can never work and that antyone who says otherwise is a hippie or ***.

Thats why I am a pacifist.

I think it would be great if the world could be with out war, but i dont think it will ever happen, but i under stand what your saying.

I do disagree with you that i do think self defense is a good use for wageing war (Britian vs. Germany), but i also think this term is used to much and for un justified terms.

Also stalin killed upwarrods of 75million people, and hitler killed 12million.

[TheDreamIsOver]

Originally posted by Justin_stacy
No its not, when you go to war to stop a dictator that tortures his own people (hittler , saddum, Hirieto (i think i spelled that wrong), or who commits mass murder, its not inhumain its just, yes inhumain things might happen but the war its self is not inhumain.

I totally agree with you.

And as for the P.O.W's, Its very upsetting to see and I hope they make it safely home to their families. My heart goes out to them all.

[your moms hot]

know what i love about this whole pow thing?? the fact that the american generals and military commanders and the president and the media officals and everyone involved in this war is spewing out propaganda saying that the iraqis are in violation of the geneva conference and international humanitarian law and all these international codes and shit by putting the pows faces on television while theyre being questioned. and yet..the very next day...what shows up on every american news channell??

the very faces of the american pows. in clear violation of the geneva conference and international humanitarian law and numerous other international codes and shit.

and would you rather not know whether or not your father or son was killed or captured after being reported MIA or would you rather know that hes being held by the iraqi army, being questioned, possibly tortured but alive somewhere in the iraqi desert?? just a hypothetical question before everyone jumps on "the lets hate iraq for putting the faces of our pows" bandwagon

[savestheglory]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
or maybe it will show the public that war is actually a bad thing and not some easy chirade like the Bush administration has shown it to be.



you are extremely stupid and naive

if you think there are people out there who don't understand that war is bad then you are so stupid...everybody knows what war is like, everybody knows its horrible, who actually thinks it's just a game?

[evil zach]

You'd be surprised how many people think that war is just a game. They seem to forget that Iraq is a counrtry with human beings living in it too.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by your moms hot
know what i love about this whole pow thing?? the fact that the american generals and military commanders and the president and the media officals and everyone involved in this war is spewing out propaganda saying that the iraqis are in violation of the geneva conference and international humanitarian law and all these international codes and shit by putting the pows faces on television while theyre being questioned. and yet..the very next day...what shows up on every american news channell??

the very faces of the american pows. in clear violation of the geneva conference and international humanitarian law and numerous other international codes and shit.

and would you rather not know whether or not your father or son was killed or captured after being reported MIA or would you rather know that hes being held by the iraqi army, being questioned, possibly tortured but alive somewhere in the iraqi desert?? just a hypothetical question before everyone jumps on "the lets hate iraq for putting the faces of our pows" bandwagon

it isn't a violation for a POW's home country to show their faces on TV. it is a violation for a country to capture soldiers and use state-sponsered media to humiliate them and question them, and then to broadcast it.