end of the age (from a Biblical view)

[stealthpeng]

do you think we are in it? yes? no? why?

my current belief is that we are in between the 5th and 6th trumpets talked about in Revelation.

[Brand-new-123]

not yet but getting close. I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the saints so not yet.

Here comes 5000 posts of the Bible can't be interpreted literally and you're an idiot for believing in God.


Edit: 1st!

[yves.]

no.

[JakeLikesNFG]

I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the saints so not yet.



I share the same belief as Brand New.
I honestly don't think we are in the middle of the Trumpets.
I think it will be very obvious and noticeable when they Trumpets are occurring.

[Brand-new-123]

I share the same belief as Brand New.
I honestly don't think we are in the middle of the Trumpets.
I think it will be very obvious and noticeable when they Trumpets are occurring.
nice avatar. Nice to meet you too. I think we went to the same school with like 100 kids

[JakeLikesNFG]

Ah, that we do.

[Machu505]

Amazing. Of the four different people who posted here, three are from Louisville.

[JakeLikesNFG]

Amazing. Of the four different people who posted here, three are from Louisville.

That is truly amazing.

[bung]

Considering that the world is in ending in 2012, Jesus better hurry up and do the whole second coming thing pretty soon.

[JakeLikesNFG]

Considering that the world is in ending in 2012...

lol

[derekmoyer4]

Considering that the world is in ending in 2012, Jesus better hurry up and do the whole second coming thing pretty soon.
a fairly solid point.

[stealthpeng]

I think corrupt politicians and powerful men might use 2012 to springboard something big, but, other than that, I can't see that happening. At-least not from a Biblical view, pre OR post trib.

I'm post-trib myself (obviously) and I think that the trumpets can be seen as pretty clear. For instance, if you do some research about the third trumpet, wormwood, etc, it can be clearly seen (in my mind, anyways) as being the Chernobyl nuclear reactor meltdown back in the 1980s.

Now, mind you, I don't think there's anything I can do, or anyone can do to stop what is coming. The mission for all Christians is to spread the gospel, no matter the technical things behind it. Whether we live through/die in the tribulation, or are taken up before that happens

[Brand-new-123]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aeFVNYQpByU4

http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1893/Gore-US-Climate-Bill-Will-Help-Bring-About-Global-Governance

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.vie (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=103707)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation%2017;&version=31;

[zion the lion]

Considering that the world is in ending in 2012, Jesus better hurry up and do the whole second coming thing pretty soon.

I'm here, and thats good enough.

[stealthpeng]

I'm here, and thats good enough.

aka, the majority belief of all humans ;)

[bung]

I'm here, and thats good enough.

HAHA. Your kind ate the damn fruit and ruined life for us all.

[thespearkid]

Firstly, a good deal of the images we associate with the rapture are inventions of man. That being said, while I don't believe there will be literal "trumpets" blown to signal the rapture, I take that as a sign that it will be blaringly obvious when the end of days is upon us. There have always been corrupt leaders and random disasters so I think a lot of what you're interpreting as trumpets is just business as usual.

[zion the lion]

aka, the majority belief of all humans ;)

aka, I'm the closest thing to perfection. Who needs Jesus when you have me?

Please God, dont send me to hell for the confidence you gave me

HAHA. Your kind ate the damn fruit and ruined life for us all.

Yeah, god hated women from the beginning...but your kind pussied out and tried to just blame the woman when he ate the fruit too.

Unless you want to see it as God was sparing us all by kicking them out of Eden before they had the chance to eat from the tree of eternal life.

[stealthpeng]

Firstly, a good deal of the images we associate with the rapture are inventions of man. That being said, while I don't believe there will be literal "trumpets" blown to signal the rapture, I take that as a sign that it will be blaringly obvious when the end of days is upon us. There have always been corrupt leaders and random disasters so I think a lot of what you're interpreting as trumpets is just business as usual.

research some on Chernobyl and the description of the third trumpet. It helped convince me

[bung]

How many trumpets are there?

[stealthpeng]

How many trumpets are there?

seven trumpets. with the last being Armageddon, if I'm not mistaken

[thespearkid]

research some on Chernobyl and the description of the third trumpet. It helped convince me
if it were a trumpet, it would be blaringly obvious, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[stealthpeng]

if it were a trumpet, it would be blaringly obvious, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

for me, I'm beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don't think the trumpets necessarily have to be blatant supernatural occurances...

Revelation 8
10The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11the name of the star is Wormwood.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30823a)] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.

If John was writing about what he could see, and was describing events in the best of his ability, this pretty much has to be Chernobyl from my point of view, even down to the name, "Wormwood".

Chernobyl was a nuclear meltdown in the Ukraine--largest nuclear meltdown the world has ever seen. The lid to part of the reactor was blown off and launched really high into the sky and came down like a star. A toxic nuclear rain contaminated the waters in large portions of Europe during this event, and more people have died because of the poison water than the explosion or nuclear fallout itself. Chernobyl is Ukrainian for a type of wormwood, often known as a black wormwood

[thespearkid]

for me, I'm beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don't think the trumpets necessarily have to be blatant supernatural occurances...

Revelation 8
10The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11the name of the star is Wormwood.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30823a)] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.

If John was writing about what he could see, and was describing events in the best of his ability, this pretty much has to be Chernobyl from my point of view, even down to the name, "Wormwood".

Chernobyl was a nuclear meltdown in the Ukraine--largest nuclear meltdown the world has ever seen. The lid to part of the reactor was blown off and launched really high into the sky and came down like a star. A toxic nuclear rain contaminated the waters in large portions of Europe during this event, and more people have died because of the poison water than the explosion or nuclear fallout itself. Chernobyl is Ukrainian for a type of wormwood, often known as a black wormwood
yeah, i'm not quite as convinced as you. a third of the waters weren't poisoned by it.

[Brand-new-123]

seven trumpets. with the last being Armageddon, if I'm not mistaken
7 seals
7 trumpets
7 bowls of wrath

In between the 6th and 7th in each group there is a pause usually a long parenthetical statement or something. Then the seventh leads into the next group of judgement. the 7th bowl brings the destruction of earth and the creation of the new heaven new earth and New Jerusalem.

[stealthpeng]

yeah, i'm not quite as convinced as you. a third of the waters weren't poisoned by it.

I'm not sure on the exact amount of waters. I'm intepreting it to mean in that area of the world though, as opposed to the whole earth. If it has to mean the whole earth, then no, Chernobyl wouldn't be wormwood

[stealthpeng]

5th trumpet
Revelation 9

1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&version=31#fen-NIV-30836a)]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoxBG5zdxg


Also, Abaddon, or, Apollyon, means "Destroyer"


Saddam means "Crusher" "Destroyer" "Powerful Leader"

The 'Locust' John was seeing being the Blackhawks (they are obviously not real locusts, or, not locusts as we know them anyways)

[Brand-new-123]

5th trumpet
Revelation 9

1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&version=31#fen-NIV-30836a)]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoxBG5zdxg


Also, Abaddon, or, Apollyon, means "Destroyer"


Saddam means "Crusher" "Destroyer" "Powerful Leader"

The 'Locust' John was seeing being the Blackhawks (they are obviously not real locusts, or, not locusts as we know them anyways)
That's a bit of a stretch since it doesn't deal with this at all : And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

[stealthpeng]

7 seals
7 trumpets
7 bowls of wrath

In between the 6th and 7th in each group there is a pause usually a long parenthetical statement or something. Then the seventh leads into the next group of judgement. the 7th bowl brings the destruction of earth and the creation of the new heaven new earth and New Jerusalem.

the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth will have to happen before the creation of new heaven and new earth, however, so we're not even close to the 'end' of the world. just the end of the reign of man's governance.

[stealthpeng]

That's a bit of a stretch since it doesn't deal with this at all :

that's the part i have trouble with, but I haven't really researched it much yet

[Brand-new-123]

the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth will have to happen before the creation of new heaven and new earth, however, so we're not even close to the 'end' of the world. just the end of the reign of man's governance.
yep. then there is a short time that Satan will be released after the thousand year reign before being cast into the lake of fire and the second judgment takes place.

[whataclush]

sorry to break it to you, but The Matrix trilogy has a hell of a better plot...

[Brand-new-123]

sorry to break it to you, but The Matrix trilogy has a hell of a better plot...
You know what you're right. You've convinced me to abandon the clearly foolish, outdated, and oppressive ways of theism. Congratulations.

[zion the lion]

You guys do realize that the book of revelation was a dream right?

[samsara]

Eh I think there is a possibility the end is near.

[thespearkid]

You guys do realize that the book of revelation was a dream right?
it's believed to be divinely inspired. how, this should really be in the God thread. shall we move it over there?

[open mind]

i believe jesus said something about not listening to idiots who predict the end of the world.

[stealthpeng]

it's believed to be divinely inspired. how, this should really be in the God thread. shall we move it over there?

this whole discussion, or her sentence? Because this topic isn't debating the existence of God--it assumes he exists.

a note-- even if you are pre-trib, you could still believe the trumpets have happened/we're in the middle of them. The actual tribulation itself doesn't come until after at-least the sixth trumpet

[stealthpeng]

i believe jesus said something about not listening to idiots who predict the end of the world.

uh, source?

[open mind]

uh, source?

here's one quote, although i'm pretty sure there's more.

http://bible.cc/matthew/24-36.htm

[stealthpeng]

here's one quote, although i'm pretty sure there's more.

http://bible.cc/matthew/24-36.htm

you're taking a verse completely out of its context. the basis of parts of Matthew 24 and 25 is that people are to keep watch and take notice of the signs so they aren't deceived by false Christs. Jesus will come like a thief for those who aren't paying attention.

[BryterJonah]

The Book of Revelations was, if anything, a collage of metaphors all referring to persecution of the Christians.
666 equates to Nero's name in Herew. Yada yada yada.

People take this crap way too far. There's no prophetic account of the future. Never was.

[thespearkid]

this whole discussion, or her sentence? Because this topic isn't debating the existence of God--it assumes he exists.

a note-- even if you are pre-trib, you could still believe the trumpets have happened/we're in the middle of them. The actual tribulation itself doesn't come until after at-least the sixth trumpet
The God thread isn't just for discussion on the existence of God. That's why it's called the God thread.

[zion the lion]

it's believed to be divinely inspired. how, this should really be in the God thread. shall we move it over there?

I totally would, but i'm flying high righ nwo

[stealthpeng]

The God thread isn't just for discussion on the existence of God. That's why it's called the God thread.

well, there can be more than one thread about politics, so why not religion? This is a very specified topic, and I don't see any problem with it... the main thread throughout the God topic is debating Christianity/Theism vs. Atheism/scientific humanism, etc.

This Thread assumes two things-- 1) God exists 2)Scripture describes the end-times

[zion the lion]

I'm sorry but thinking about all of the stuff that revelation talks about is just not that believable. I would belive scientology before I believe that.

[stealthpeng]

I'm sorry but thinking about all of the stuff that revelation talks about is just not that believable. I would belive scientology before I believe that.

specifically?

[thespearkid]

well, there can be more than one thread about politics, so why not religion? This is a very specified topic, and I don't see any problem with it... the main thread throughout the God topic is debating Christianity/Theism vs. Atheism/scientific humanism, etc.

This Thread assumes two things-- 1) God exists 2)Scripture describes the end-times
we can still have this discussion in the other thread though, as there are plenty of people there who believe God exists and that the end times is talked about in scripture. this would just turn into another God thread, as you see there are already people coming in and debating the basic concepts of the thread. might as well put it in the God thread.

[stealthpeng]

we can still have this discussion in the other thread though, as there are plenty of people there who believe God exists and that the end times is talked about in scripture. this would just turn into another God thread, as you see there are already people coming in and debating the basic concepts of the thread. might as well put it in the God thread.

the thing is, I don't want the basis of the thread coming into question be the main/entire focus of this topic.... which is what will happen if it goes to the God thread.

I don't think it matters that much though.... my guess is that this thread will be dead in the water in no time

[open mind]

you're taking a verse completely out of its context. the basis of parts of Matthew 24 and 25 is that people are to keep watch and take notice of the signs so they aren't deceived by false Christs. Jesus will come like a thief for those who aren't paying attention.

how did you come to this interpretation?

you say false christs, i'd say false prophets....and what would you call someone who's saying the end of the world is near?

[open mind]

specifically?

i don't believe revelations was ever meant to be taken literally.

[stealthpeng]

how did you come to this interpretation?

you say false christs, i'd say false prophets....and what would you call someone who's saying the end of the world is near?

I came to that interpretation by studying scripture... and reading whole chapters and books instead of verses pulled out of context....

I'd say that someone who says the end of the world is near is mistaken in their interpretations of scripture. I don't think that we are currently in the millennial reign of Christ. Two of the largest wars in human history were fought last century, poverty is terrible, etc. We aren't close to the end of the world yet.

[open mind]

I came to that interpretation by studying scripture... and reading whole chapters and books instead of verses pulled out of context....

I'd say that someone who says the end of the world is near is mistaken in their interpretations of scripture. I don't think that we are currently in the millennial reign of Christ. Two of the largest wars in human history were fought last century, poverty is terrible, etc. We aren't close to the end of the world yet.

a)that says nothing about your real understanding of scripture.

b)you wrongly assume i haven't studied scripture.

in my mind you're still in the wrong and taking on the role of a false prophet....even jesus didn't have the balls to guess when the world would end.

[stealthpeng]

i don't believe revelations was ever meant to be taken literally.

John uses language where he gives metaphores in many instances, yes. But Revelation isn't just made up of metaphores.... thats not the type of language being used throughout the entire text, just as in all Biblical prophesy.

some things, such as mention of 'Beasts' always refers to kings or kingdoms in scripture--this isn't my interpretation, this is what scripture itself says beasts mean.

Revelation pretty clearly talks about there being a world governmental system at the end of this present age, with the Anti-Christ and his spiritual leader of the world heading the whole thing.

[stealthpeng]

a)that says nothing about your real understanding of scripture.

b)you wrongly assume i haven't studied scripture.

in my mind you're still in the wrong and taking on the role of a false prophet....even jesus didn't have the balls to guess when the world would end.

I'm not saying I know the day or hour that everything will come to pass.... I'm stating that I believe some of prophesy has come to pass after the fact. By saying that several trumpets have been blown, all I have done is interpret prophesy as prophesy has always been interpreted.

b) I never assumed you hadn't studied scripture. I just don't feel pulling a sentence out of its native context is the right way of going about interpreting things.

[open mind]

John uses language where he gives metaphores in many instances, yes. But Revelation isn't just made up of metaphores.... thats not the type of language being used throughout the entire text, just as in all Biblical prophesy.

some things, such as mention of 'Beasts' always refers to kings or kingdoms in scripture--this isn't my interpretation, this is what scripture itself says beasts mean.

Revelation pretty clearly talks about there being a world governmental system at the end of this present age, with the Anti-Christ and his spiritual leader of the world heading the whole thing.

fundamental disagreement here....i see revelations as a book of poetry more then anything else.

haha.....for someone who's such an expert on the bible you don't seem to understand that the bible is a collection of books that were put together hundreds of years after many of them were written.....meaning the definition of a given term in one book does not apply to the whole.

pretty clearly? i think it's a leap to say revelations makes all of that clear.

[open mind]

I'm not saying I know the day or hour that everything will come to pass.... I'm stating that I believe some of prophesy has come to pass after the fact. By saying that several trumpets have been blown, all I have done is interpret prophesy as prophesy has always been interpreted.

b) I never assumed you hadn't studied scripture. I just don't feel pulling a sentence out of its native context is the right way of going about interpreting things.

you are not interpreting prophesy as it has always been interpreted.....you may be interpreting it as your specific denomination has always interpreted it, but that's not near the same thing.

you assume that's all i did.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

Come on now.

People have been calling for the end of world for hundreds or years now. Let's all realize that life isn't going to end anytime soon, and if it does, it will be some random event not some biblical calling time. I'm over all these, "signs" that are hidden in interpretation. If the bible was real, and could clearly estimate the end of the world, why wouldn't it clearly, or without reasonable doubt, predict our end?

[stealthpeng]

fundamental disagreement here....i see revelations as a book of poetry more then anything else.

haha.....for someone who's such an expert on the bible you don't seem to understand that the bible is a collection of books that were put together hundreds of years after many of them were written.....meaning the definition of a given term in one book does not apply to the whole.



Revelation and Daniel have a lot in common. They talk about a lot of the same stuff. In Daniel, the Beasts are talked about... the same ones mentioned in Revelation, but in Daniel it says that the Beasts represent kings and kingdoms.

Revelation 1
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

big reason why I interperet Revelation as a prophetic book.

It's hard, convoluted, and decisive in a lot of ways though, I'll give you that. That's why Church's rarely try to preach/teach much about it.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

I'm not saying I know the day or hour that everything will come to pass.... I'm stating that I believe some of prophesy has come to pass after the fact. By saying that several trumpets have been blown, all I have done is interpret prophesy as prophesy has always been interpreted.

b) I never assumed you hadn't studied scripture. I just don't feel pulling a sentence out of its native context is the right way of going about interpreting things.

No offense to you but you are interpetatitng signs that now, due to our new found knowledge, seem to be true.

I compare it to misleading a witness with some truth and letting them fill in the blanks. Or the ink-spot test. People will see what they want to see. Not saying you want the world to end but you obviously believe in scripture, so for it to be true you will find truths that are self-evident rather than factual. Again, not trying to be rude, or a dick.

[stealthpeng]

you are not interpreting prophesy as it has always been interpreted.....you may be interpreting it as your specific denomination has always interpreted it, but that's not near the same thing.

you assume that's all i did.

I assumed, because that's all you gave me brother.

I asked for a reference, and you pulled out one verse taken out of its native context

[open mind]

I assumed, because that's all you gave me brother.

I asked for a reference, and you pulled out one verse taken out of its native context

asking for a reference is not near the same thing as asking how i came to my conclusion.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

John uses language where he gives metaphores in many instances, yes. But Revelation isn't just made up of metaphores.... thats not the type of language being used throughout the entire text, just as in all Biblical prophesy.

some things, such as mention of 'Beasts' always refers to kings or kingdoms in scripture--this isn't my interpretation, this is what scripture itself says beasts mean.

Revelation pretty clearly talks about there being a world governmental system at the end of this present age, with the Anti-Christ and his spiritual leader of the world heading the whole thing.

Not trying to nit pick here but aren't all if not most the biblical references metaphorical?

I will argue this fact, quite clearly. If this is what you believe than please tell me what world, government, spiritual leader is now the 'anti-christ"?

[open mind]

Revelation and Daniel have a lot in common. They talk about a lot of the same stuff. In Daniel, the Beasts are talked about... the same ones mentioned in Revelation, but in Daniel it says that the Beasts represent kings and kingdoms.

Revelation 1
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

big reason why I interperet Revelation as a prophetic book.

It's hard, convoluted, and decisive in a lot of ways though, I'll give you that. That's why Church's rarely try to preach/teach much about it.

that may be but that doesn't mean all terms in the bible are universally recognized as representing the same thing.

it's possible to take something to heart and see it as truth while not taking it literally.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

that may be but that doesn't mean all terms in the bible are universally recognized as representing the same thing.

it's possible to take something to heart and see it as truth while not taking it literally.

Agree with you first point but I don't understand your second point. Seems too ambiguous for me.

[open mind]

Agree with you first point but I don't understand your second point. Seems too ambiguous for me.

a parable can illustrate an inherent truth but it is not literal. poetry can speak truth but it's still poetry.

[stealthpeng]

Not trying to nit pick here but aren't all if not most the biblical references metaphorical?

I will argue this fact, quite clearly. If this is what you believe than please tell me what world, government, spiritual leader is now the 'anti-christ"?

the spiritual leader and the anti-christ are two separate people.
as for who they are? There is no way to tell yet.

the only time we will be able to tell who the anti-christ is is when he commits the 'abomination of desolation"

which is
daniel 9
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%209:27;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22016a)] In the middle of the 'seven' [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%209:27;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22016b)] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%209:27;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22016c)] " [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%209:27;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22016d)]


daniel 11

31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.


daniel 12

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.




after a covenant has been made with Israel, the Temple will be rebuilt, and sacrifices will begin for 3.5 years. After the 3.5 years, the Anti-Christ will stop the sacrifice, possible claiming to be the fullfillment of the sacrifice. He will then rule for 3.5 years, and then the battle of Armageddon will take place



Matthew 24
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23970b)] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened

[Sic Transit Zeb]

a parable can illustrate an inherent truth but it is not literal. poetry can speak truth but it's still poetry.

That's like saying a lie is truth but still is a lie. I'm sorry but that doesn't' make sense to me. Things are either A or B, never A&B. If one thing is to be a dichotomy, when relating to two certain, disagreeable things, then obviously one is searching for a truth and has not yet accepted which truth to believe in.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

the spiritual leader and the anti-christ are two separate people.
as for who they are? There is no way to tell yet.

the only time we will be able to tell who the anti-christ is is when he commits the 'abomination of desolation"

which is
daniel 9
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%209:27;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22016a)] In the middle of the 'seven' [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%209:27;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22016b)] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%209:27;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22016c)] " [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%209:27;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22016d)]


daniel 11

31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.


daniel 12

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.




after a covenant has been made with Israel, the Temple will be rebuilt, and sacrifices will begin for 3.5 years. After the 3.5 years, the Anti-Christ will stop the sacrifice, possible claiming to be the fullfillment of the sacrifice. He will then rule for 3.5 years, and then the battle of Armageddon will take place



Matthew 24
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23970b)] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened

Well, if your'e trying to prove your point by quoting scripture to a 'non-believer' you're not gaining any grounds.

Anyways, I've always read that the anti-christ was both a spiritual leader and a government leader of the world. thus, why I was asking which one would 'fit the bill now'. Obviously, we do not have a uniformed, spiritual and government leader.

[The Personist]

Revelation is an anti-Roman metaphor. Gtfo

[open mind]

That's like saying a lie is truth but still is a lie. I'm sorry but that doesn't' make sense to me. Things are either A or B, never A&B. If one thing is to be a dichotomy, when relating to two certain, disagreeable things, then obviously one is searching for a truth and has not yet accepted which truth to believe in.

sorry but that's not at all the same thing because interpretation of scripture is not a certain thing.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

sorry but that's not at all the same thing because interpretation of scripture is not a certain thing.

Interpretation is seeing what you want to. Not seeing what is factual. One does not interpret facts, they interpret inconsistencies to come to a conlusion that is thus satisfactory.

[The Personist]

You're an idiot.

[stealthpeng]

Well, if your'e trying to prove your point by quoting scripture to a 'non-believer' you're not gaining any grounds.

Anyways, I've always read that the anti-christ was both a spiritual leader and a government leader of the world. thus, why I was asking which one would 'fit the bill now'. Obviously, we do not have a uniformed, spiritual and government leader.


Revelation talks about two seperate beasts working together. The Beast from the Sea (I believe this is right...) and the Ten-Horned beast. There's a belief that the Anti-Christ (ten horned beast) would come from a revived Holy Roman empire (which is in the works--the European Union), and the Pope at the time would be the beast of the sea (the Holy Roman Empire always had two heads of state, the Emperor and the Pope).

[Sic Transit Zeb]

You're an idiot.

who is that?

[Nevuk]

Amazing. Of the four different people who posted here, three are from Louisville.
If you've ever been to a church in louisville it's not that surprising. But if I hear one more person reference the book of revelations as something that indicates how we're going to be in a total economic collapse today, I'm going to go on a fucking killing spree.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

Revelation talks about two seperate beasts working together. The Beast from the Sea (I believe this is right...) and the Ten-Horned beast. There's a belief that the Anti-Christ (ten horned beast) would come from a revived Holy Roman empire (which is in the works--the European Union), and the Pope at the time would be the beast of the sea (the Holy Roman Empire always had two heads of state, the Emperor and the Pope).

Ahhh, I see I see. Well that makes. thanks for the clarification.

[The Personist]

who is that?

You. Your epistemology is retarded.

[open mind]

Revelation is an anti-Roman metaphor. Gtfo

can't say you don't get right to the throat of the matter.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

If you've ever been to a church in louisville it's not that surprising. But if I hear one more person reference the book of revelations as something that indicates how we're going to be in a total economic collapse today, I'm going to go on a fucking killing spree.

that is why I asked if there was an anti-christ now haha.

[Nevuk]

The Book of Revelations was, if anything, a collage of metaphors all referring to persecution of the Christians.
666 equates to Nero's name in Herew. Yada yada yada.

People take this crap way too far. There's no prophetic account of the future. Never was.
The book of revelations is probably the most scathing indictment of a culture ever (the Romans)

[Sic Transit Zeb]

You. Your epistemology is retarded.

Well you should explain since you so vehemently disagree. Rather than say it is 'retarded' please prove, or show points as to why you feel it is mis-informed.

[stealthpeng]

If you've ever been to a church in louisville it's not that surprising. But if I hear one more person reference the book of revelations as something that indicates how we're going to be in a total economic collapse today, I'm going to go on a fucking killing spree.

lol, what are they referencing? The black horse i guess?

[open mind]

Interpretation is seeing what you want to. Not seeing what is factual. One does not interpret facts, they interpret inconsistencies to come to a conlusion that is thus satisfactory.

we're talking about a book filled with metaphors, parables, poetry, fables, and facts.....it's impossible to not interpret scripture.

[The Personist]

can't say you don't get right to the throat of the matter.

Too much time is wasted discussing this book when it really doesn't mean much more than that. It's retarded to think it's actually about the end, and it seems counterintuitive and a waste of time to worry/try to prepare for that end when in actuality it undermines what actual interpretation of scripture has to say anyways. No smart religious person thinks the end is nigh or is going to look like Revelation.

[The Personist]

Well you should explain since you so vehemently disagree. Rather than say it is 'retarded' please prove, or show points as to why you feel it is mis-informed.

I just did quoting someone else.

[stealthpeng]

Too much time is wasted discussing this book when it really doesn't mean much more than that. It's retarded to think it's actually about the end, and it seems counterintuitive and a waste of time to worry/try to prepare for that end when in actuality it undermines what actual interpretation of scripture has to say anyways. No smart religious person thinks the end is nigh or is going to look like Revelation.

thanks mate

[Sic Transit Zeb]

we're talking about a book filled with metaphors, parables, poetry, fables, and facts.....it's impossible to not interpret scripture.

And fallacies! Let's not forget those.

[open mind]

Too much time is wasted discussing this book when it really doesn't mean much more than that. It's retarded to think it's actually about the end, and it seems counterintuitive and a waste of time to worry/try to prepare for that end when in actuality it undermines what actual interpretation of scripture has to say anyways. No smart religious person thinks the end is nigh or is going to look like Revelation.

we seem to agree here.

[Nevuk]

Sorry, I'm a little hostile to christianity today. (My mother had a party with like half a church attending our house today, and I had to sit there and listen to them blather on in self-righteous, far right conservatism with multiple bush clones, references to Obama as the anti-christ, and me and my cousin getting looked at really weird when we just started talking about modernism and the arts, and enduring my food being blessed and then hearing a prayer which tied the permission of humanity to eat food to jesus' christs' salvation, and the fact that only his tolerance allowed us to live without being tortured for all eternity. I've said it multiple times, I would rather be raped a million times in hell by demons than EVER be one with that fucking terrible, petty, jealous, IDIOTIC God of christianity in heaven.
Also, my cousin was reading the jungle while I was trying to eat, and that was just ... ugh.)

[open mind]

And fallacies! Let's not forget those.

if we're going to talk indictments of scripture we should do it in the latest god thread.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

I just did quoting someone else.

I'm not going to scan the thread to find it. If it is the quote above this post then I'll look if not, then tell me who, or just copy and paste. It's not that hard.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

if we're going to talk indictments of scripture we should do it in the latest god thread.

My whole point is that interpretation=what one wants to believe rather than what is real. Also, I don't believe a thing can be both black and white; for instance. It is either black, or white. If it is both, then it is neither black and white.

[Nevuk]

lol, what are they referencing? The black horse i guess?
Um, it was a bit worse than that. Essentially they said that the US never comes up in revelations, so that means something has to happen to us to make us totally irrelevant, like a total economic collapse (if we are going by an actual end times interpretation, I've always interpreted the US as the rome of it anyways). It was only worse because they then said "I just pray the rapture happens by then".

[Sic Transit Zeb]

Sorry, I'm a little hostile to christianity today. (My mother had a party with like half a church attending our house today, and I had to sit there and listen to them blather on in self-righteous, far right conservatism with multiple bush clones, references to Obama as the anti-christ, and me and my cousin getting looked at really weird when we just started talking about modernism and the arts, and enduring my food being blessed and then hearing a prayer which tied the permission of humanity to eat food to jesus' christs' salvation, and the fact that only his tolerance allowed us to live without being tortured for all eternity. I've said it multiple times, I would rather be raped a million times in hell by demons than EVER be one with that fucking terrible, petty, jealous, IDIOTIC God of christianity in heaven.
Also, my cousin was reading the jungle while I was trying to eat, and that was just ... ugh.)

I just get annoyed when people try to say one thing is evident by their own interpretations that are based off of some self-evident truths. To me, it does not make any sense. I'd rather see something that is factual or has a concert theory and hypothesis for its backing.

[open mind]

My whole point is that interpretation=what one wants to believe rather than what is real. Also, I don't believe a thing can be both black and white; for instance. It is either black, or white. If it is both, then it is neither black and white.

kind of a silly point to make in a thread concerning religion but i can agree with your first thought.

i'm not sure what brings black and white into this when i've never suggested shades of gray are impossible.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

Um, it was a bit worse than that. Essentially they said that the US never comes up in revelations, so that means something has to happen to us to make us totally irrelevant, like a total economic collapse (if we are going by an actual end times interpretation, I've always interpreted the US as the rome of it anyways). It was only worse because they then said "I just pray the rapture happens by then".

Oh yeah, the rapture. now that sounds just surpremly god like. Let's burn all the non-believers and then we'll ask for your forgiveness. Realllllllllllllllllllllll forgiving and seemingly an appropriate conclusion to force others to believe.

[stealthpeng]

Um, it was a bit worse than that. Essentially they said that the US never comes up in revelations, so that means something has to happen to us to make us totally irrelevant, like a total economic collapse (if we are going by an actual end times interpretation, I've always interpreted the US as the rome of it anyways). It was only worse because they then said "I just pray the rapture happens by then".

I don't know if the US is in prophesy. the only thing I've come across is an interpretation of a verse in Daniel that talks about a Lion who has Eagles wings, but the Eagle's wings are plucked from it (Lion being a great kingdom--great britain).

pre-tribulation rapture doesn't make any sense to me, because the Bible talks about tons of people being deceived by the anti-christ.... honestly, who would be deceived if suddenly, thousands of people were suddenly missing? Like, wouldn't it be obvious by then?

[Sic Transit Zeb]

kind of a silly point to make in a thread concerning religion but i can agree with your first thought.

i'm not sure what brings black and white into this when i've never suggested shades of gray are impossible.

How is it silly? Isn't religion silly? Many wars, deaths and atrocities have been made due to a simple religion?

Anyways, I digress. You said something can be inherently untrue but both things. I then said something is either A or B, neither A&B. That is where black and white came into.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

kind of a silly point to make in a thread concerning religion but i can agree with your first thought.

i'm not sure what brings black and white into this when i've never suggested shades of gray are impossible.

How is it silly? Isn't religion silly? Many wars, deaths and atrocities have been made due to a simple, braindwashing belief that is based off of fear; persecution?

Anyways, I digress. You said something can be inherently untrue but true. I then said something is either A or B, neither A&B. That is where black and white came into.

[open mind]

Um, it was a bit worse than that. Essentially they said that the US never comes up in revelations, so that means something has to happen to us to make us totally irrelevant, like a total economic collapse (if we are going by an actual end times interpretation, I've always interpreted the US as the rome of it anyways). It was only worse because they then said "I just pray the rapture happens by then".

gotta love the nuts that pray for chaos, death, and destruction in the name of a loving god.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

I don't know if the US is in prophesy. the only thing I've come across is an interpretation of a verse in Daniel that talks about a Lion who has Eagles wings, but the Eagle's wings are plucked from it (Lion being a great kingdom--great britain).

pre-tribulation rapture doesn't make any sense to me, because the Bible talks about tons of people being deceived by the anti-christ.... honestly, who would be deceived if suddenly, thousands of people were suddenly missing? Like, wouldn't it be obvious by then?

wouldn't it be obvious a lion cannot have an eagles wings? Especially if they have been plucked?

Again, not trying to call you out but you seem to have two, separate views. The first is not literal, while the second is.


EDIT---I mixed up this post with a conversation with my friend. Disregard my response to you please. I apologize.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

gotta love the nuts that pray for chaos, death, and destruction in the name of a loving god.


Well we agree here!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[stealthpeng]

wouldn't it be obvious a lion cannot have an eagles wings? Especially if they have been plucked?

Again, not trying to call you out but you seem to have two, separate views. The first is not literal, while the second is.


EDIT---I mixed up this post with a conversation with my friend. Disregard my response to you please. I apologize.

the Eagle's wings being America

[open mind]

How is it silly? Isn't religion silly? Many wars, deaths and atrocities have been made due to a simple, braindwashing belief that is based off of fear; persecution?

Anyways, I digress. You said something can be inherently untrue but true. I then said something is either A or B, neither A&B. That is where black and white came into.

in the minds of agnostics and athiests yes it is often viewed as silly.....which is why i said your point was kind of silly to make in a thread concerning religion.

i didn't say some things can be inherently untrue but true, my point was some things can be true but not automattically in the way you think they are.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

the Eagle's wings being America

ahhh read my edit!!!

[Sic Transit Zeb]

in the minds of agnostics and athiests yes it is silly.....which is why i said your point was kind of silly to make in a thread concerning religion.

i didn't say some things can be inherently untrue but true, my point was some things can be true but not automattically in the way you think they are.

Well isn't this a conversational thread? Or should only religious believers post in it?

I thought the first post said post your thoughts; that is all. If not then whoops! My mistake!

Well yes, some things are not automatic but not many things are. My point was how can one thing be positive but at the same time be negative? Idk if that makes sense or what.

[stealthpeng]

end of the age (from a Biblical view)
do you think we are in it? yes? no? why?

this topic was mostly intended for people who actually believe that scripture is true and possibly tells about the end of the age

[open mind]

Well isn't this a conversational thread? Or should only religious believers post in it?

I thought the first post said post your thoughts; that is all. If not then whoops! My mistake!

Well yes, some things are not automatic but not many things are. My point was how can one thing be positive but at the same time be negative? Idk if that makes sense or what.

no need to get defensive dude. it's just well established around these parts that many think religion is silly and nonsensical so it strikes me as redundant to point it out yet again....and really the current god thread is probably a better thread then this to do so if you feel the need.

i don't think i've attempted to argue that point.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

no need to get defensive dude. it's just well established around these parts that many think religion is silly and nonsensical so it strikes me as redundant to point it out yet again....and really the current god thread is probably a better thread then this to do so if you feel the need.

i don't think i've attempted to argue that point.

Wasn't trying to get defensive! Sorry if it seemed this way.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

end of the age (from a Biblical view)
do you think we are in it? yes? no? why?

this topic was mostly intended for people who actually believe that scripture is true and possibly tells about the end of the age

Yes? No? Why?

I've responded with no and why, in my opinion. As have you with yes and why. Right?

[open mind]

Wasn't trying to get defensive! Sorry if it seemed this way.

no worries.

[The Pharmacist]

as a hindu this is all very interesting....

[eleven eleven]

too bad the bible is fake lol

[The Personist]

Such astute commentary.

[My Broken Fever]

Oh come on, each generation thinks they are the last. And they all have similar proof of why it's that generation. The world is not going to end. We might get hit by an asteroid but there will be no rapture and so on.

[The Personist]

...because it's a METAPHOR.

[My Broken Fever]

I'd say it's just plain silly.

[GeeBee]

...because it's a METAPHOR.

I keep waiting to see your rage kindled against fundies as vociferously as it's kindled against atheists. It's like I'm a step-child that's been beaten repeatedly...and my brother has gone largely unscathed.

[The Personist]

I keep waiting to see your rage kindled against fundies as vociferously as it's kindled against atheists. It's like I'm a step-child that's been beaten repeatedly...and my brother has gone largely unscathed.

I respect and understand your views better than theirs. It's easier to argue against that which I see as being a valid way to look at things.

Also, you read more than one book.

[GeeBee]

I respect and understand your views better than theirs. It's easier to argue against that which I see as being a valid way to look at things.

Also, you read more than one book.

:lol:

True. I find that even when I shift back into my previous "devout" mode, it's still hard to understand where these people come up with this nonsense.

[The Personist]

:lol:

True. I find that even when I shift back into my previous "devout" mode, it's still hard to understand where these people come up with this nonsense.

You can GOOGLE Revelation and have your fundamentalist end-time bullshit debunked.

[GeeBee]

You can GOOGLE Revelation and have your fundamentalist end-time bullshit debunked.

I'm not as mad about it from an intellectual POV as I am about the apathy such views generate toward fundamental issues that will affect the next generations. If you believe the earth is near its end, why would you give a fuck about war, peace, or the state of the earth?

[GeeBee]

In other words...if enough people walk around thinking everything is a sign of the end of the world...that's probably exactly what they'll get.

[open mind]

In other words...if enough people walk around thinking everything is a sign of the end of the world...that's probably exactly what they'll get.

i've heard about nutty christians loving the idea of total annihilation so much they use it as motivation to work in defense with the hope that they're bringing about the end times.

[GeeBee]

i've heard about nutty christians loving the idea of total annihilation so much they use it as motivation to work in defense with the hope that they're bringing about the end times.

Exactly the type of shit I was referring to. It's as ignorant as it is irresponsible.

[open mind]

Exactly the type of shit I was referring to. It's as ignorant as it is irresponsible.

yeah, that way of thinking is wrong on so many levels it just pisses me off.

[Machu505]

Exactly the type of shit I was referring to. It's as ignorant as it is irresponsible.
Last year I joked with my friend that were John McCain elected to the presidency, World War III would break out within six months. The pastor's kid overheard me and said that maybe that'd be a good thing, because then Jesus would come back. Good times.

[stealthpeng]

I'm not as mad about it from an intellectual POV as I am about the apathy such views generate toward fundamental issues that will affect the next generations. If you believe the earth is near its end, why would you give a fuck about war, peace, or the state of the earth?

I'm not appathetic about the "state of the earth". You can choose to listen to the alarmists, or you can step back and look at what's really going on--'climate change' is just another horse being used to try to bring in global governance. If you're fine with individuals holding that much power, and if you think human beings are actually capable of bringing peace on earth, there's absolutely no reason to not support it, right? Even though the science is still highly speculative, and has many desenters.

Now, on this note--I'm perfectly fine with our own country becoming energy dependent. What we've done to the middle east is not pretty. However, I don't agree with the methods we've started to go about it (cap and trade, etc)

[GuitarR0cker1]

Last year I joked with my friend that were John McCain elected to the presidency, World War III would break out within six months. The pastor's kid overheard me and said that maybe that'd be a good thing, because then Jesus would come back. Good times.
:-d
Really though people who believe in the rapture and end times and all of that bullshit creep me out. I happen to believe in human progress and the idea that if there was a god he wouldn't just destroy everything he had created.

[stealthpeng]

Last year I joked with my friend that were John McCain elected to the presidency, World War III would break out within six months. The pastor's kid overheard me and said that maybe that'd be a good thing, because then Jesus would come back. Good times.

McCain isn't that much different than Obama. The differences between the GOP and the Dems is laughable these days... because no-one actually does anything majorly different. So, the Dems put out a stimulus package that a huge majority of the people that elected them said they did not want.... what was the GOP's solution? A freaking stimulus package, but one that was slightly smaller.

[open mind]

I'm not appathetic about the "state of the earth". You can choose to listen to the alarmists, or you can step back and look at what's really going on--'climate change' is just another horse being used to try to bring in global governance. If you're fine with individuals holding that much power, and if you think human beings are actually capable of bringing peace on earth, there's absolutely no reason to not support it, right? Even though the science is still highly speculative, and has many desenters.

Now, on this note--I'm perfectly fine with our own country becoming energy dependent. What we've done to the middle east is not pretty. However, I don't agree with the methods we've started to go about it (cap and trade, etc)

i just about never do this but seriously.....you're a fucking idiot.

[stealthpeng]

i just about never do this but seriously.....you're a fucking idiot.
thanks for clarifying ;)

[Machu505]

:-d
Really though people who believe in the rapture and end times and all of that bullshit creep me out. I happen to believe in human progress and the idea that if there was a god he wouldn't just destroy everything he had created.
I don't know, the best part about building with Legos was blowin' 'em up afterward.

[open mind]

thanks for clarifying ;)

a)your theological beliefs are backwards and to make matters worse you seem to be sure they're right.

b)climate change and the causes of it are not really up for any sort of serious debate at this point.

[GuitarR0cker1]

I don't know, the best part about building with Legos was blowin' 'em up afterward.
I would hope that god is a more rational and intelligent person than you matt. ;-)

[Machu505]

I would hope that god is a more rational and intelligent person than you matt. ;-)
Oh lawdy if I were God for a day.

[stealthpeng]

a)your theological beliefs are backwards and to make matters worse you seem to be sure they're right.

b)climate change and the causes of it are not really up for any sort of serious debate at this point.

a) again, thanks for clarifying
b) that's not even remotely true. Plus, you missed my point--it doesn't matter if it's true or not, it's still a horse being ridden to a global governmental system, you're blind if you think otherwise. Now, you may think global governance is a good thing--a lot of people do... I don't, but that's just my opinion.

[open mind]

a) again, thanks for clarifying
b) that's not even remotely true. Plus, you missed my point--it doesn't matter if it's true or not, it's still a horse being ridden to a global governmental system, you're blind if you think otherwise. Now, you may think global governance is a good thing--a lot of people do... I don't, but that's just my opinion.

horse? global government?

1)quit taking on the role of false prophet.

2)don't use that role as an excuse to spout dumbshit global conspiracies.....curbing emissions does not in any way equal a global government.

3)show me all this respected dissent on climate change.

[stealthpeng]

horse? global government?

1)quit taking on the role of false prophet.

2)don't use that role as an excuse to spout dumbshit global conspiracies.....curbing emissions does not in any way equal a global government.

3)show me all this respected dissent on climate change.

1) I'm not even talking about the false prophet? eh? <_<
2) This isn't a conspiracy, lol. It's about global law-making, which in turn leads to global governance. Read the news, maybe?

3)I don't have any off the top of my head... but, you do know that journals are known to not publish contrary evidence at times? I mean, you're making a blanket statement, which pretty much says, "scientists pretty much all agree what is causing climate change..etc" which is just not true.

I do know that one of the writers, or scientists, whatever, that was working on the current cap and trade bill was going to speak out against being so hasty on passing the bill, and he got shut-down and shut up for several weeks. I saw the story in multiple mainstream media outlets.

I also know that the creator of the weather channel (US) doesn't agree with man-made global warming as well

[stealthpeng]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6658672.ece
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1893/Gore-US-Climate-Bill-Will-Help-Bring-About-Global-Governance
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aeFVNYQpByU4
a couple recent news stories

EDIT:: Also, my girlfriend's dad is a lawyer at EON, specifically in the energy and climate section, and he's talked to me some about the debates n' whatnot surrounding 'climate change'. He is a moderate/conservative democrat, and he even was telling me about how it was more of a political issue to instate more centralized global laws

[open mind]

1) I'm not even talking about the false prophet? eh? <_<
2) This isn't a conspiracy, lol. It's about global law-making, which in turn leads to global governance. Read the news, maybe?

3)I don't have any off the top of my head... but, you do know that journals are known to not publish contrary evidence at times? I mean, you're making a blanket statement, which pretty much says, "scientists pretty much all agree what is causing climate change..etc" which is just not true.

I do know that one of the writers, or scientists, whatever, that was working on the current cap and trade bill was going to speak out against being so hasty on passing the bill, and he got shut-down and shut up for several weeks. I saw the story in multiple mainstream media outlets.

I also know that the creator of the weather channel (US) doesn't agree with man-made global warming as well

i'm saying you're taking on the role of a false prophet and that you really should stop.

international law does not equal a global government.

a lawmaker and a tv executive do not equal dissent that can be taken seriously.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

[bladerdude360]

Holy shit this is crazy.

[stealthpeng]

i'm saying you're taking on the role of a false prophet and that you really should stop.

international law does not equal a global government.

a lawmaker and a tv executive do not equal dissent that can be taken seriously.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

So, you don't think that as we get more and more international laws, rules that have to be enforced in all nations of the global community, it won't lead to a more visible global government? There already is global government through the UN, anyways, it's effects just aren't as prominent on the US as in Europe because the US has had a continually strained relationship with the UN. The US's current administration obeys UN laws moreso than the past one

[open mind]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6658672.ece
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/1893/Gore-US-Climate-Bill-Will-Help-Bring-About-Global-Governance
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aeFVNYQpByU4
a couple recent news stories

EDIT:: Also, my girlfriend's dad is a lawyer at EON, specifically in the energy and climate section, and he's talked to me some about the debates n' whatnot surrounding 'climate change'. He is a moderate/conservative democrat, and he even was telling me about how it was more of a political issue to instate more centralized global laws

none of those links included any substantive dissent on the topic of climate change.

there is a difference between a global government and international law.

i don't give 2 shits about what your lawyer friend says....call me crazy but i tend to go to the EXPERTS on a given topic to get my information.

[saysmydoctor]

Is this thread worth reading?

[saysmydoctor]

Amazing. Of the four different people who posted here, three are from Louisville.
:rotfl: Holy shit, it was just for this.

[open mind]

So, you don't think that as we get more and more international laws, rules that have to be enforced in all nations of the global community, it won't lead to a more visible global government? There already is global government through the UN, anyways, it's effects just aren't as prominent on the US as in Europe because the US has had a continually strained relationship with the UN. The US's current administration obeys UN laws moreso than the past one

no. i don't believe international law threatens the soveriegnty of the nations across the globe.

the u.s. (and the rest of the nations sitting on the security council) isn't controlled by the u.n. because nations sitting on the security council hold veto power.

[open mind]

Is this thread worth reading?

probably not.

[stealthpeng]

none of those links included any substantive dissent on the topic of climate change.

there is a difference between a global government and international law.

i don't give 2 shits about what your lawyer friend says....call me crazy but i tend to go to the EXPERTS on a given topic to get my information.

what's the difference between international law and global government? I'll say there is one, but it has to do more with visibility than anything. Afterall, what does a government do? It creates, executes, and interprets laws.

you say you go to the experts, and you've given me one link from a singular (biased) source. At-least I'm giving a couple links? The fact of the matter is, there is decent, whether or not various outlets choose to publish, or even talk about it or not.

And, like I said earlier--it doesn't matter if it's true or not. It's entered the political realm now, and it's seen in a large way as an issue that can be used to push for more global laws/governance

Those links weren't supposed to be about climate change. It had to do with Al-Gore talking about climate change and global governance, and the fact that a new currency is being shown to world-leaders that is a global currency.

[saysmydoctor]

no. i don't believe international law threatens the soveriegnty of the nations across the globe.

the u.s. (and the rest of the nations sitting on the security council) isn't controlled by the u.n. because nations sitting on the security council hold veto power.
I never agreed with the veto power given to the US, Britain, France, China, and Russia. I personally think the Charter should be rewritten to allow for the veto power to be transfered amongst any of the nations on the Security Council, there should be no permanent slots, it makes no sense to me. So in a lot of ways, I think the veto power kind of threatens...maybe not the sovereignty but I don't consider it particularly fair to force US foreign policy (if you allow that they for the most part steer the policy of the Council) on the rest of the world.

I know that's not what you were saying exactly, but I just wanted to make that point.

[stealthpeng]

no. i don't believe international law threatens the soveriegnty of the nations across the globe.

the u.s. (and the rest of the nations sitting on the security council) isn't controlled by the u.n. because nations sitting on the security council hold veto power.

so, you think there will only be global governance when nations are forced to adopt the laws, as opposed to all agreeing on them mandatorily?

[saysmydoctor]

what's the difference between international law and global government? I'll say there is one, but it has to do more with visibility than anything. Afterall, what does a government do? It creates, executes, and interprets laws.

you say you go to the experts, and you've given me one link from a singular (biased) source. At-least I'm giving a couple links? The fact of the matter is, there is decent, whether or not various outlets choose to publish, or even talk about it or not.

And, like I said earlier--it doesn't matter if it's true or not. It's entered the political realm now, and it's seen in a large way as an issue that can be used to push for more global laws/governance

Those links weren't supposed to be about climate change. It had to do with Al-Gore talking about climate change and global governance, and the fact that a new currency is being shown to world-leaders that is a global currency.
Argue the information presented, not your perception of the validity of the source.

Also, yeah, great another kooky theory about a New World Order. I'm sure that source is totally credible.

[stealthpeng]

Argue the information presented, not your perception of the validity of the source.

Also, yeah, great another kooky theory about a New World Order. I'm sure that source is totally credible.

what source of mine are you talking about? I posted a vid of AL Gore and a link from Bloomberg talking about a new global currency being shown off at the G-8

EDIT:: and to answer the 'perception' comment, read the paragraph under that one.... I said it didn't matter whether or not man-made climate change was real.... it's being used as a way to instate more global laws whether it's a real threat or not

[open mind]

what's the difference between international law and global government? I'll say there is one, but it has to do more with visibility than anything. Afterall, what does a government do? It creates, executes, and interprets laws.

you say you go to the experts, and you've given me one link from a singular (biased) source. At-least I'm giving a couple links? The fact of the matter is, there is decent, whether or not various outlets choose to publish, or even talk about it or not.

And, like I said earlier--it doesn't matter if it's true or not. It's entered the political realm now, and it's seen in a large way as an issue that can be used to push for more global laws/governance

Those links weren't supposed to be about climate change. It had to do with Al-Gore talking about climate change and global governance, and the fact that a new currency is being shown to world-leaders that is a global currency.

international law is what soveriegn nations agree on as making sense to follow....global government is the world being run by one government. that's such an incredible over simplification of the functions of government that i'm seriously starting to think you're clinically retarded.

i gave you one link that references studies from all major national scientific organizations that deal directly with the science of climate.....you've given me zero substance.

it doesn't matter if it's true or not because some idiots see it as a way to push something that's completely unrelated? you're insane.

a global currency would not equal a global government.

[saysmydoctor]

what source of mine are you talking about? I posted a vid of AL Gore and a link from Bloomberg talking about a new global currency being shown off at the G-8
I didn't click any of the links, but I'm sure the way the clip was edited or maybe your perception of what was said was probably way off. It's not like someone has every said one thing and another thing been misconstrued out of it.

[open mind]

so, you think there will only be global governance when nations are forced to adopt the laws, as opposed to all agreeing on them mandatorily?

what the hell are you talking about?

[stealthpeng]

I didn't click any of the links, but I'm sure the way the clip was edited or maybe your perception of what was said was probably way off. It's not like someone has every said one thing and another thing been misconstrued out of it.

so you didn't even click the links? cool.

Gore, "...But it is the awareness itself (speaking on climate change) that will drive the change, and one of the ways it will drive the change is through global governance and global agreements"

the video isn't chopped together
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6658672.ece

[stealthpeng]

what the hell are you talking about?

I'm sorry, but I'm done debating with you. You've been increasingly disrespectful, and the discussion isn't going anywhere.

[saysmydoctor]

How did you pull global currency out of that?

Besides, what he said is absolutely correct.

[stealthpeng]

How did you pull global currency out of that?

Besides, what he said is absolutely correct.

I never said anything was 'correct' or 'incorrect'. All I'm trying to do is say that the world is increasingly gearing up for more global governance/a true 'world government'.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aeFVNYQpByU4
(this is the money link)

[open mind]

I'm sorry, but I'm done debating with you. You've been increasingly disrespectful, and the discussion isn't going anywhere.

in other words you can't logically defend the simplified views and the arguments that fly in the face of fact that you're presenting.

[saysmydoctor]

I never said anything was 'correct' or 'incorrect'. All I'm trying to do is say that the world is increasingly gearing up for more global governance/a true 'world government'.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aeFVNYQpByU4
(this is the money link)
Well, duh. Welcome to the globalized world. You are the one automatically construing global governance on a bad thing. I see such bureaucratic constructs as being engines to breakdown sexism, racism, etc. The conspiracy theorist crowd of course assumes the worst, I'd like to think you aren't apart of that backwards school of thought.

[stealthpeng]

Well, duh. Welcome to the globalized world. You are the one automatically construing global governance on a bad thing. I see such bureaucratic constructs as being engines to breakdown sexism, racism, etc. The conspiracy theorist crowd of course assumes the worst, I'd like to think you aren't apart of that backwards school of thought.

The reason I think it's a bad thing is because my worldview tells me that humans are generally evil, looking out for their own interests, not generally good, unselfish beings.

that, and, from the way I interpret scripture, the global government precedes the end of this age.
edit: AKA, the reason why i made this topic

[open mind]

Well, duh. Welcome to the globalized world. You are the one automatically construing global governance on a bad thing. I see such bureaucratic constructs as being engines to breakdown sexism, racism, etc. The conspiracy theorist crowd of course assumes the worst, I'd like to think you aren't apart of that backwards school of thought.

he thinks it's a sign of the end of the world.

[saysmydoctor]

The reason I think it's a bad thing is because my worldview tells me that humans are generally evil, looking out for their own interests, not generally good, unselfish beings.

that, and, from the way I interpret scripture, the global government precedes the end of this age.
edit: AKA, the reason why i made this topic
This may be more outrageous than anything ever said by any member of the Westboro Baptist Church. Maybe not hateful, but just as batshit nuts.

[GeeBee]

I'm not appathetic about the "state of the earth". You can choose to listen to the alarmists, or you can step back and look at what's really going on--'climate change' is just another horse being used to try to bring in global governance. If you're fine with individuals holding that much power, and if you think human beings are actually capable of bringing peace on earth, there's absolutely no reason to not support it, right? Even though the science is still highly speculative, and has many desenters.

Now, on this note--I'm perfectly fine with our own country becoming energy dependent. What we've done to the middle east is not pretty. However, I don't agree with the methods we've started to go about it (cap and trade, etc)

A person who believes the Book of Revelation to be a literal prophecy= an alarmist= YOU. Sorry. Everything I've read from you leads me to this conclusion.

[stealthpeng]

This may be more outrageous than anything ever said by any member of the Westboro Baptist Church. Maybe not hateful, but just as batshit nuts.

if you think the true, historical Christian view of humanity its nuts, that's fine... there's literally nothing I can do to dissuade you from that notion.

[open mind]

I never agreed with the veto power given to the US, Britain, France, China, and Russia. I personally think the Charter should be rewritten to allow for the veto power to be transfered amongst any of the nations on the Security Council, there should be no permanent slots, it makes no sense to me. So in a lot of ways, I think the veto power kind of threatens...maybe not the sovereignty but I don't consider it particularly fair to force US foreign policy (if you allow that they for the most part steer the policy of the Council) on the rest of the world.

I know that's not what you were saying exactly, but I just wanted to make that point.

permanent veto power undermines the entire mission of the u.n. but the world powers won't have it any other way.
the u.n. may be largely ineffective but it's still better then the league of nations was.

[stealthpeng]

A person who believes the Book of Revelation to be a literal prophecy= an alarmist= YOU. Sorry. Everything I've read from you leads me to this conclusion.

you know, I wouldn't expect you to believe or see Revelation as prophesy, because you aren't even a Christian--why would you see something you don't believe in as being true? It wouldn't make sense.

[open mind]

if you think the true, historical Christian view of humanity its nuts, that's fine... there's literally nothing I can do to dissuade you from that notion.

don't you dare insinuate that your brand of lunacy has ever represented the whole of christianity.

[GeeBee]

if you think the true, historical Christian view of humanity its nuts, that's fine... there's literally nothing I can do to dissuade you from that notion.

You've done very little on this entire SITE to make ANY "Christian views" any more valid or acceptable. Holy shit. Have you EVER been outside Kentucky?

This thread makes me wish Christ would finally come down and swoop up his "chosen ones", just so the rest of us could kill babies and have gay sex in peace.

[GeeBee]

you know, I wouldn't expect you to believe or see Revelation as prophesy, because you aren't even a Christian--why would you see something you don't believe in as being true? It wouldn't make sense.

Your whole quote doesn't even fucking makes sense. Even when I WAS a Christian, the book of revelation reads like one of my moron friends trying to recount a "scary dream" they once had.

[stealthpeng]

You've done very little on this entire SITE to make ANY "Christian views" any more valid or acceptable. Holy shit. Have you EVER been outside Kentucky?

This thread makes me wish Christ would finally come down and swoop up his "chosen ones", just so the rest of us could kill babies and have gay sex in peace.

I'm sorry Christian views aren't acceptable to you

[GeeBee]

I'm sorry Christian views aren't acceptable to you

I'm sorry reality isn't acceptable to you. It's not "christian views" I find unacceptable. It's rambling, incoherent, unsubstantiated bullshit views that really burn me up.

[stealthpeng]

Your whole quote doesn't even fucking makes sense. Even when I WAS a Christian, the book of revelation reads like one of my moron friends trying to recount a "scary dream" they once had.

You know, the title of this topic is, "End of the Age (from a Biblical View)"

you're not really adding anything to the discussion.

[GeeBee]

You know, the title of this topic is, "End of the Age (from a Biblical View)"

you're not really adding anything to the discussion.

Neither are you.

[open mind]

wiki is crap for reference material but it's good enough to show people that christian opinion/thought on revelations has never really been agreed upon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Interpretations

[Manicapathy]

There have been too many other "end of days" predictions from other sources dating from times both before and after the bible was written. I've stopped giving them any credibility. When the time comes, if I'm still alive, I'm just gonna hole up in my house with a 12 gauge and hope I die of something quick and painless before the boogeymen get me....if it does go down like it does in revelations. Fighting demons on earth and stuff....sweet.

[GeeBee]

wiki is crap for reference material but it's good enough to show people that christian opinion/thought on revelations has never really been agreed upon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Interpretations

It's been posted before...but I think it bears repeating...

http://imagechan.com/images/12f0980702d470590b1f359de4ac4b09.pn g

[open mind]

It's been posted before...but I think it bears repeating...

http://imagechan.com/images/12f0980702d470590b1f359de4ac4b09.pn g

i can see the humor in that but i'm not a huge fan of over-simplification.

[GeeBee]

i can see the humor in that but i'm not a huge fan of over-simplification.

For as much as the bible has been over-expounded upon for the last 2 thousand years...
I find a little oversimplification of such an overrated piece of archaic blogging as the bible pretty damn refreshing.

[open mind]

For as much as the bible has been over-expounded upon for the last 2 thousand years...
I find a little oversimplification of such an overrated piece of archaic blogging as the bible pretty damn refreshing.

different strokes for different folks.

[Brand-new-123]

The End is Near,

eaCCkfjPm0o

[peder458]

The End is Near,

eaCCkfjPm0o


really really confused......................... is there any explanation at all? or should i just not ask.....

[Regards]

I think this is a silly topic to discuss and as believers in on this board we could be talking about more important things. Christ made it clear that it'll "come like a thief in the night". Be secure in your faith and just know that when it goes down, it's going down.

And no, I do not believe we are in the end of the age.

[LoveHateHolly]

Pat Buchanan 12'

[Duexy]

nope

[ShShShark]

I told my dad that if the world doesn't end in 2012 i'd finish my last year of college.

I figure its a win, win either way.

[peder458]

I told my dad that if the world doesn't end in 2012 i'd finish my last year of college.

I figure its a win, win either way.

unless we nuke eachother, i think you are safe to register for classes. :)

[ShShShark]

i'm gonna milk it for what its worth. i sure as hell dont' want to be stuck in class if the red button gets pushed. id rather be watching cash cab or touring.

[MyNameIsRoss]

anyone notice the extreme christian bias on the history channel? all they show is religious/end of the world, bible prophecy etc shit.

anyway, there is no god in the way the bible explains it. these beliefs hold us back as a society. religion exploits the hunger and knowledge for the understanding of the universe(s), our existence, fear of death etc. It's really all quite sad.

[boykosaurus]

this entire thread is beyond the lolz

[peder458]

anyone notice the extreme christian bias on the history channel? all they show is religious/end of the world, bible prophecy etc shit.

anyway, there is no god in the way the bible explains it. these beliefs hold us back as a society. religion exploits the hunger and knowledge for the understanding of the universe(s), our existence, fear of death etc. It's really all quite sad.

i couldn't agree more with your second point, but from the specials i have watched i see angles from both sides. i really like watching those end times shows just to see how ridiculous they are. i think the history channel interviews some nuts, but they interview a lot of scholars who debunk any literal interpretation of the prophecies and end times texts.

[The Personist]

lol @ thinking religion is totally exploitative.

[GeeBee]

lol @ thinking religion is totally exploitative.

Nice new username WORSE-onist! AHAHAHAH!!!

But the majority of mainstream American religions are totally exploitative. Admit as much...or die by my hand.

[The Personist]

Nice new username WORSE-onist! AHAHAHAH!!!

But the majority of mainstream American religions are totally exploitative. Admit as much...or die by my hand.

LOL ArtfullyAbsconded brought the lolz though.

Mainstream American religion? sure. But not all religion. And you must remember that what is mainstream is usually so because it's loud and outspoken about its buffoonery.

[GeeBee]

LOL ArtfullyAbsconded brought the lolz though.

Mainstream American religion? sure. But not all religion. And you must remember that what is mainstream is usually so because it's loud and outspoken about its buffoonery.

I agree for the most part. Though I will submit that when literalism in ANY religion rises, so does the amount of exploitation of its adherents, be it monetary or intellectual.

[The Personist]

I agree for the most part. Though I will submit that when literalism in ANY religion rises, so does the amount of exploitation of its adherents, be it monetary or intellectual.

Interestingly enough, it usually entails one person telling many that one interpretation of the book is true. I hate that shit.