Ohhh. Yes!

[Jason Tate]

Just so you know, 14 provisons of the Patriot Act were made (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/03/02/patriot_act_wins_final_congressiona l_approval/) "permanent."

[Jason Tate]

PS. I'd like to publically thank my senator (Ron Wyden) for voting against this.

[Cocaine&Whiskey]

This doesn't bother me much because i don't care if the government listens to my conversations because i'm not going to blow anything up. Plus why would i be that special that they would listen to me in the first place. And just because its permanent now doesn't mean it will stay that way, look at the prohibition.

[Jason Tate]

This doesn't bother me much because i don't care if the government listens to my conversations because i'm not going to blow anything up. Plus why would i be that special that they would listen to me in the first place. And just because its permanent now doesn't mean it will stay that way, look at the prohibition.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - B. Franklin

[MonkeyBars]

The problem with that quote, Tate, is that it's wrong. By establishing any form of government, we are giving up liberty for security. I'm Canadian, so this really doesn't bother me, but your quote is very misguided. Take Hobbes' or Locke's idea of the State of Nature: basically we're all fucked, so we establish government to keep control on ourselves and others.

[thejetstolehome]

yippie...:shake:

[Simulcast]

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - B. Franklin

Oh right, because Benjamin Franklin was around during the time when terrorists infiltrate our country in attempts to blow us all up. And exactly what liberties have we given up as a result of the Patriot act? The way I see it, the fact that I can walk outside and eat at my favorite burger joint without fear of being blown up by a suicide bomber is liberty. The fact that you can express your digust with the president's every action is also a sign of this freedom. If this was the civil war, you'd have been jailed by now for expressing yourself. But its not. Perhaps its time to look at both sides of the issues for a change, and not use this as a vehicle to display your discontent with a president, who while in office, has managed to prevent another attack on U.S. soil.

[imirish06]

saaaaaaaaweeeeeeeeeeeet

[Jason Tate]

The problem with that quote, Tate, is that it's wrong. By establishing any form of government, we are giving up liberty for security. I'm Canadian, so this really doesn't bother me, but your quote is very misguided. Take Hobbes' or Locke's idea of the State of Nature: basically we're all fucked, so we establish government to keep control on ourselves and others.
Put in context, I don't feel it's misguided. The context of how Franklin was using it (with an established government) and the context in which I am using it (within our goverment as well) brings it to a different light. I think it's about the ability to live a life of liberty within the boundries of a government and security. The patriot act (in my opinion) oversteps these boundries ...

Furhtermore, in this day and age the founding fathers would be arrested on sight by our government ...

[catscradle]

I'm just going to say this and leave it at that. If you aren't doing anything wrong then why does it matter. It's infringing on privacy, but if that's what needs to be done to help prevent future attacks against the u.s. then i'm for it. The u.s. won't turn into a big brother society. Nothing will ever get passed beyond the patriot act unless our country was at war on U.S. soil.

[Jason Tate]

Oh right, because Benjamin Franklin was around during the time when terrorists infiltrate our country in attempts to blow us all up. And exactly what liberties have we given up as a result of the Patriot act? The way I see it, the fact that I can walk outside and eat at my favorite burger joint without fear of being blown up by a suicide bomber is liberty. The fact that you can express your digust with the president's every action is also a sign of this freedom. If this was the civil war, you'd have been jailed by now for expressing yourself. But its not. Perhaps its time to look at both sides of the issues for a change, and not use this as a vehicle to display your discontent with a president, who while in office, has managed to prevent another attack on U.S. soil.

Your post is riddled with logical fallacies that I am going to glaze over as I answer the bigger picture.

What liberties have we given up? Well, here's an example.
PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- Walter Soehnge is a retired Texas schoolteacher who traveled north with his wife, Deana, saw summer change to fall in Rhode Island and decided this was a place to stay for a while.

So the Soehnges live in Scituate now and Walter sometimes has breakfast at the Gentleman Farmer in Scituate Village, where he has passed the test and become a regular despite an accent that is definitely not local.

And it was there, at his usual table last week, that he told me that he was "madder than a panther with kerosene on his tail."

He says things like that. Texas does leave its mark on a man.

What got him so upset might seem trivial to some people who have learned to accept small infringements on their freedom as just part of the way things are in this age of terror-fed paranoia. It's that "everything changed after 9/11" thing.

But not Walter.

"We're a product of the '60s," he said. "We believe government should be way away from us in that regard."

He was referring to the recent decision by him and his wife to be responsible, to do the kind of thing that just about anyone would say makes good, solid financial sense.

They paid down some debt. The balance on their JCPenney Platinum MasterCard had gotten to an unhealthy level. So they sent in a large payment, a check for $6,522.

And an alarm went off. A red flag went up. The Soehnges' behavior was found questionable.

And all they did was pay down their debt. They didn't call a suspected terrorist on their cell phone. They didn't try to sneak a machine gun through customs.

They just paid a hefty chunk of their credit card balance. And they learned how frighteningly wide the net of suspicion has been cast.

After sending in the check, they checked online to see if their account had been duly credited. They learned that the check had arrived, but the amount available for credit on their account hadn't changed.

So Deana Soehnge called the credit-card company. Then Walter called.

"When you mess with my money, I want to know why," he said.

They both learned the same astounding piece of information about the little things that can set the threat sensors to beeping and blinking.

They were told, as they moved up the managerial ladder at the call center, that the amount they had sent in was much larger than their normal monthly payment. And if the increase hits a certain percentage higher than that normal payment, Homeland Security has to be notified. And the money doesn't move until the threat alert is lifted.

Walter called television stations, the American Civil Liberties Union and me. And he went on the Internet to see what he could learn. He learned about changes in something called the Bank Privacy Act.

"The more I'm on, the scarier it gets," he said. "It's scary how easily someone in Homeland Security can get permission to spy."

Eventually, his and his wife's money was freed up. The Soehnges were apparently found not to be promoting global terrorism under the guise of paying a credit-card bill. They never did learn how a large credit card payment can pose a security threat.

But the experience has been a reminder that a small piece of privacy has been surrendered. Walter Soehnge, who says he holds solid, middle-of-the-road American beliefs, worries about rights being lost.

"If it can happen to me, it can happen to others," he said.
That's just one example of the bullshit that this patriot act brings upon us. Furthermore, I've never judged a single President by his ability (or dumb luck) to prevent an attack on US soil. If I did, I'd be using the argument that during President Bush's term an incredibly LARGE attack did take place on his watch. However, as I said, I refuse to use that sort of logic. There are plenty of other things Bush has done wrong to warrent my distain (the Patriot act being one of them). I have lists, and lists of things the Patriot act has already done (a friend of my grandfather was questioned by the FBI for checking out a book at his local library on Islam..), but the scary thing is what precident it sets and that for everything we KNOW is going on under it's umbrella there has to be things 10x worse we don't know about.

[Hidenothing27]

whether people hate the act or not.. it was passed for a reason.. by republicans and democrats so there has to be some benefit in it.. by the way anyone know the margin it was passed the "nays" to the "yays"??

[Jason Tate]

I'm just going to say this and leave it at that. If you aren't doing anything wrong then why does it matter. It's infringing on privacy, but if that's what needs to be done to help prevent future attacks against the u.s. then i'm for it. The u.s. won't turn into a big brother society. Nothing will ever get passed beyond the patriot act unless our country was at war on U.S. soil.
Well, I ask what is America if not what we stand for and what we were given in the Bill of Rights. Our society was built upon these unalienable rights, yes? If we start giving them away - how are we still the great country that we used to be. I'd argue that we're not .. and I think as we slip further and further back from our former selves, we are also becoming the ugly bully of the global playground. Something that will almost always have dire consequences.

[Jason Tate]

whether people hate the act or not.. it was passed for a reason.. by republicans and democrats so there has to be some benefit in it.. by the way anyone know the margin it was passed the "nays" to the "yays"??
89 - 10.

And the "reason" is that the democrats are just as moronic as the republicans. Our "one-party" system is a joke.

[Hidenothing27]

thats quite the big margin obviously the politicians feel that it has to be done..I can understand both views towards the issue because you are giving up rights that shouldnt have to, then some people say "i have nothing to hide".. though i'd agree with that it is not the point.. and this thread has the potential to EXPLODE into heated debate as it did a few months ago

[adelphi_rocks]

i love whenever you post political news like this, because random people always have to come in and argue with you......

[Jason Tate]

thats quite the big margin obviously the politicians feel that it has to be done..I can understand both views towards the issue because you are giving up rights that shouldnt have to, then some people say "i have nothing to hide".. though i'd agree with that it is not the point.. and this thread has the potential to EXPLODE into heated debate as it did a few months ago
Eh, the politicians are spineless shanks who will say one thing to the camera to secure a vote from liberals and do a 180 while voting. It's pretty digusting. At least with the Republican vote I know what I'm getting ...

[Hidenothing27]

i love whenever you post political news like this, because random people always have to come in and argue with you......

Is that a problem? and for the record adelphi do not rock

[adelphi_rocks]

Is that a problem? and for the record adelphi do not rock
yes, it is. a very large one as a matter of fact.....

[Jason Tate]

Is that a problem? and for the record adelphi do not rock
It's only a problem if you're spouting off what your parents said at the dinner table instead of looking into what the consequences could be for you and your children in the future. I have no real problem with people supporting this sort of thing IF they know what they're supporting. I just have a hard time with those who play the, "well, if I'm not doing anything wrong, who cares" card.

[Hidenothing27]

Eh, the politicians are spineless shanks who will say one thing to the camera to secure a vote from liberals and do a 180 while voting. It's pretty digusting. At least with the Republican vote I know what I'm getting ...

very true, but i voted for bush and I did not think he would do as bad as a job this time around as he did before.. before the election I thought iraq would be over and many other things would be close to behind us... If i had to vote again it would def not be for bush, but it also def not be for kerry

[adelphi_rocks]

It's only a problem if you're spouting off what your parents said at the dinner table instead of looking into what the consequences could be for you and your children in the future. I have no real problem with people supporting this sort of thing IF they know what they're supporting. I just have a hard time with those who play the, "well, if I'm not doing anything wrong, who cares" card.
what did you major in?

[romantic rights]

im not down.

[Jason Tate]

what did you major in?
Business Administration...

[idobi]

89 - 10.

And the "reason" is that the democrats are just as moronic as the republicans. Our "one-party" system is a joke.

I wouldn't say moronic... spineless, maybe. But can you blame them?

You have to be in power to make changes - and any Senator that voted against the bill would've been labeled "anti-american" in the next election.

"Senator xxx does not believe in your security. xxx voted against the PATRIOT Act, and was willing to endanger your life... blah blah blah"

I'll give Wyden his due - but then, he's not up for reelection until 2010.

[Jason Tate]

I wouldn't say moronic... spineless, maybe. But can you blame them?

You have to be in power to make changes - and any Senator that voted against the bill would've been labeled "anti-american" in the next election.

"Senator xxx does not believe in your security. xxx voted against the PATRIOT Act, and was willing to endanger your life... blah blah blah"

I'll give Wyden his due - but then, he's not up for reelection until 2010.
True. Didn't look at it that way ... the age of the smear campaign and clever sound bites.

[sell the sunris]

Who was the tool who said Benjamin Franklin knew nothing about terrorism? This country was FOUNDED through the use of terrorism. For us, it was may have been for freedom, but to the British, we may as well have been al-Qaeda, except they were called the Sons of Liberty.

I hate to use NOFX, but I tend to agree with "I don't want to be another "idontcareican"

[Cal Smith]

I agree that the idea, "if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" is flawed. For example I doubt few would support the FBI or whoever entering your home for no reason in search of something illegal under this idea.

On the other hand, I don't think the Patriot Act has overstepped those boundaries. For me, things like library records is a far step away from crossing the line.

[In_the_static09]

The problem with that quote, Tate, is that it's wrong. By establishing any form of government, we are giving up liberty for security. I'm Canadian, so this really doesn't bother me, but your quote is very misguided. Take Hobbes' or Locke's idea of the State of Nature: basically we're all fucked, so we establish government to keep control on ourselves and others.
Locke beilieved in Lassiez Faire capitalism, which emphasized less control through government. His ideas were an alternative to Hobbes' State of Nature.

The Declaration of Independence is based off Locke's rights of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" (even though he called it "life, liberty, and property"). Our government is based of this statement in all fiscal matters. Why not for personal situations? If we're going to "blanket rule" citizen's actions through the Patriot Act, we should at least have uniform government policies.

[JIMMYateEARTH]

I have no problems with this. The only people who should have a problem with it are the ones with something to Hide. I have absolutely no problem with the government doing this because I CAN STILL DO AND SAY WHAT I WANT and I am free to do so when I please. Also in the long run it has the potential to make us safer.


Also to put Tate's B. Franklin qoute into more perspective, at the Time or country was founded he and all other signers of the Declaration of Independance, Were the Terriorrists of thier Time.
They Over Throw a Government, think of it that way.

[raycer]

(a friend of my grandfather was questioned by the FBI for checking out a book at his local library on Islam..), .

that's insane.

[idobi]

I have no problems with this. The only people who should have a problem with it are the ones with something to Hide. I have absolutely no problem with the government doing this because I CAN STILL DO AND SAY WHAT I WANT and I am free to do so when I please. Also in the long run it has the potential to make us safer.


Also to put Tate's B. Franklin qoute into more perspective, at the Time or country was founded he and all other signers of the Declaration of Independance, Were the Terriorrists of thier Time.
They Over Throw a Government, think of it that way.

For you, and everyone else that's posted something similar in this thread... You're an idiot!

You lack imagination and the ability to think beyond "the next move". You have yet to develop the capacity to "see the entire board".

Accepting laws because they don't personally affect you? Moronic.

Do a little research into the abuses of the Patriot Act, and imagine yourself in their place.

Franklin's quote was fitting, but I'll start you on another...

"First they came for the jews..." - Martin Niemoller

[WarpSpeedChewy]

Goodbye America........It was nice knowing ya.


You know what really frightens me. How is the Patriot Act gonna be used if terrorism ever dies down ? People will forget about it but the power will still be there.

[heyRomanticA__x]

Great..I look like an Arab..now I'm really screwed. Anyways, I don't agree with the patriot act. How can we get this repealed?

[ArmorForStephen]

I am not trying to stir any controversy, but I agree with the Patriot Act. I for one am not moronic, nor ignorant. The problem we are facing now is the ideological chasm between the two parties (Republicans and Democrats); thus splitting our country in two. A person will pick a side, then automatically assume that that party's idea is the correct answer to a problem. That is a very ignorant position to take. Besides all of that mumbo jumbo, I believe that it is our civic duty to give up some liberty our fathers provided for us.
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
--John F. Kennedy
Here is another quote you can put in context. I am not a JFK fan, but we must understand that the government must adjust to the growing atmosphere of the world, such as adjusting to terrorism. The world is not the same as it was when our country was founded. In order to do this, I will give up some of my liberty to make our society safer, and so should you. Since the Patriot Act, I do not recall any terrorist attacks on our soil; therefore, something must be working. I sure am glad that I live in this society even though their are growing amounts of anti-Americanism appearing around the world. By the way, for all of you that disapprove of the agents, such as the Patriot Act, I understand there is freedom of speech, but don't bash America. If you don't like the United States and its rules, then get the fuck out! Move to a different country. Maybe, Iran. And while your there living a miserable life, maybe, just maybe, you can appreciate what the United States has provided for you.

[idobi]

By the way, for all of you that disapprove of the agents, such as the Patriot Act, I understand there is freedom of speech, but don't bash America. If you don't like the United States and its rules, then get the fuck out!

You know, I was with you to right about there.

I respect that people have different opinions. I respect that people have different views. I can understand that some people might support the Patriot Act at face value. I personally think they're wrong and short sighted. I'm open to an intelligent debate. It might provide me with a perspective that I haven't considered.

But that statement shows what kind of ass you really are. You're for freedom of speech, except for speech you disagree with? You're a moron.

[desaparecido]

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - B. Franklin

that is an interesting quote, but doesnt do anything for me.

life and liberty are both rights... without giving up a little liberty, your right to life is in jeapordy.

[andrewlterry]

Tate, you must be one hell of a paranoid guy to think the government wants to spend their time and money tapping your phone line and "getting all up in your business".

[Rest_Easy]

"For every one you destroy two shall take its place."
My fear, and very likely the fear of many here, is that this will lead to a slippery slope (assuming we have not already began). We call it the war on terror but truth is a war is something either side could concievably win. There cannot be a winner here. Countries will always have some form of government (as prefaced in the Thomas Hobbes and John Locke mentioning) and there will always be those who dissagree. The more public this gets, and by that I mean the more it gets used and twisted into a political campaign for whomever quotes themselves as "loving freedom", the deeper these people and organizations will move and therefore we too will need to move deeper. I think the patriot act defines this thought. Now, do I agree with the act? Well, that is a loaded question and I must say that to some extent I do and some I do not.

[robbietheperson]

We are conforming to the ideas of other nations to sustain our success. The only problem with that is that we frown upon these countries for their lack of civil rights. Slowly, but surely we are mutating, becoming the beasts we are so frightened of.

[catscradle]

Well, I ask what is America if not what we stand for and what we were given in the Bill of Rights. Our society was built upon these unalienable rights, yes? If we start giving them away - how are we still the great country that we used to be. I'd argue that we're not .. and I think as we slip further and further back from our former selves, we are also becoming the ugly bully of the global playground. Something that will almost always have dire consequences.
The Bill of Rights has been changed many times since its inception. In the intial bill of rights it gave blacks and women no rights, But over time it has changed as perspectives have changed in order to perserve our country. The Patriot Act is another change that must be made in order to preserve or countries grandeur. Our country has changed many things during its time and evolved in order to remain the power it is and the Patriot Act is another measure we must take in order to preserve our freedoms. Just remeber nothing will infringe on our rights more than this and will never go farther. Any thing more will be unconstitutional, unless if war breaks out on U.S. soil. In order for our country to survive we must have this or we will slowly be dismembered by those who hate us.

[feigningapology]

PS. I'd like to publically thank my senator (Ron Wyden) for voting against this.

But I assume Gordon Smith didn't.

[XpunkXroutineX]

Woo-hoo! Arrest me! I can hear the goose steps getting closer.

[cyricc]

Tate, you must be one hell of a paranoid guy to think the government wants to spend their time and money tapping your phone line and "getting all up in your business".

If they didn't why would they pass the Patriot Act? There is already a secret warrent court for warrents for Constitutional spying.

[Ambulance X]

Good. I love seeing liberals get their panties all in a bunch

[CircaEnder]

man..does this really matter? im going to do the same things i did before this.... and while you are on an internet forum chatting about how it sucks.. its still happening. Finding someone on the internet that agrees on this issue is cool, but remember it doesnt mean shit.

[ArmorForStephen]

That is exactly the reason why I did not want to say anything on this post:
Idobi--You know, I was with you to right about there.

I respect that people have different opinions. I respect that people have different views. I can understand that some people might support the Patriot Act at face value. I personally think they're wrong and short sighted. I'm open to an intelligent debate. It might provide me with a perspective that I haven't considered.

But that statement shows what kind of ass you really are. You're for freedom of speech, except for speech you disagree with? You're a moron.

So, I put in my two cents. Then, you call me an ass and moron. Talk about respecting a person's opinion. This is the reason why people should keep music and politics seperate. But hey, you will probably call me an ass for reposting to your reply. Let me tell say, You really prove something calling everyone moronic.

[hometownzero]

Since the Patriot Act, I do not recall any terrorist attacks on our soil; therefore, something must be working.
That right there is terrible, terrible reasoning. Anyone with an ounce of logic in their brain knows that is a bad argument. The fact is that this is a bigger issue than merely terrorism.

I understand there is freedom of speech, but don't bash America.
Apparently, you don't, and I'll bash it if I want to. You don't have to listen to me or pay attention, but I can say whatever the hell I want.

If you don't like the United States and its rules, then get the fuck out! Move to a different country. Maybe, Iran. And while your there living a miserable life, maybe, just maybe, you can appreciate what the United States has provided for you.
Now that's just being ignorant. You know, for about half of your post I could understand what you were saying, and I agree with you that the way our politcal system is set up is dysfunctional. But you spouting crap like this last quote is a direct contradiction to your statement. If we don't accept other voices into our government and examine various (aka - more than two) positions on issues, then we're going right back into our two-party slugfest.