I Figured Jason Would Be Posting This Later Anyway...

[Paul Tao]

The House has voted to renew (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11716139/) the Patriot Act. All it needs now is Bush's signature.

[underthetalking]

Woo hoo

[Jason Tate]

:bikeride:

Give away the ports while we're at it, I mean, "Americans shouldn't be concerned with their security" or anything ...

[Paul Tao]

:bikeride:

Give away the ports while we're at it, I mean, "Americans shouldn't be concerned with their security" or anything ...
here comes the shit storm...

[JacksColdSweat]

The democrats need to make something happen one of these days.

[apex]

The democrats need to make something happen one of these days.

it's a good thing we have a 2 party system.

[Gabe Gross]

portscenter

[thejetstolehome]

i'm not happy...

[domesticyeti]

i did a huge report on the patriot act, it's actually some really really frightening stuff when you get into it. this is really disturbing that they re-passed it, though there are some new revisions and what not.
it's still an undermining of basic freedom.

[andrewlterry]

sweet.

[fedhed7]

ghey.

[SwingingMics]

:bikeride:

Give away the ports while we're at it, I mean, "Americans shouldn't be concerned with their security" or anything ...
the patriot overwhelmingly passes every time. i wonder why?

What's wrong with the ports deal? you are just encouraging anti-islamic sentiment by saying it's a bad idea. British companies own ports. The UAE are our allies, aligned with us fighting terrorism. BILL CLINTON helped to administrate the port deal. Plus, the ports owned by the UAE still have to follow and go by all U.S. security measures.

[SwingingMics]

the patriot overwhelmingly passes every time. i wonder why?

What's wrong with the ports deal? you are just encouraging anti-islamic sentiment by saying it's a bad idea. British companies own ports. The UAE are our allies, aligned with us fighting terrorism. BILL CLINTON helped to administrate the port deal. Plus, the ports owned by the UAE still have to follow and go by all U.S. security measures.
now i'll wait for tate to call me ann coulter or karl rove.

[Cal Smith]

Considering all that the Patriot Act contains right now..........

Using hindsight, if the Patriot Act was in place prior to 9/11 and the provisions in it directly led to thwarting the attack, would you want it in place or would you still rather have it overturned?

[jfb392]

<- Moving to Canada.

[Cal Smith]

now i'll wait for tate to call me ann coulter or karl rove.

you sound like michael savage :)

[Cal Smith]

<- Moving to Canada.

<------waving goodbye

[SwingingMics]

Considering all that the Patriot Act contains right now..........

Using hindsight, if the Patriot Act was in place prior to 9/11 and the provisions in it directly led to thwarting the attack, would you want it in place or would you still rather have it overturned?
agreed. there is a reason it passes overwhelmingly every time. what did it pass this time 89-10? Because it is necessary.

[TyroneShoolaces]

portscenter

LOL @ The Daily Show

[IAPAI]

Considering all that the Patriot Act contains right now..........

Using hindsight, if the Patriot Act was in place prior to 9/11 and the provisions in it directly led to thwarting the attack, would you want it in place or would you still rather have it overturned?

Using hindsight, they had enough information to prevent the attacks WITHOUT the Patriot Act.

[SwingingMics]

you sound like michael savage :)
haha.

i'd take fred savage too.

[IAPAI]

<- Moving to Canada.

<-- Welcoming

[Cal Smith]

Using hindsight, they had enough information to prevent the attacks WITHOUT the Patriot Act.

didnt say they didnt.

[Jason Tate]

Considering all that the Patriot Act contains right now..........

Using hindsight, if the Patriot Act was in place prior to 9/11 and the provisions in it directly led to thwarting the attack, would you want it in place or would you still rather have it overturned?
In hindsight if you had to kill your mother and father to prevent JFK from being assasinated would you?

Are you seriously using that as your argument? Hindsight is your argument? Dude, in hindsight we should have maybe done something about Pearl Harbor too right? Or that pesy Nazi thing. If we had been living without any rights at all - we could be pretty fucking protected right? I mean, we may need someone to liberate us in a few years - but for a while we'd be sooooo safe.

In hindsight, don't you think without the patriot act we still had enough information to prevent the attacks? Because I'd argue we do.

[Jason Tate]

you sound like michael savage :)
Cause he's a good, rational guy and all.

[TyroneShoolaces]

Using hindsight, they had enough information to prevent the attacks WITHOUT the Patriot Act.

Agreed. Should the document titled "Osama Bin Laden determined to strike within U.S' of given it away? No they ignored that. Seriously wtf!? I hate this government.

Land Of The Free. Pffftt. Right.

[SwingingMics]

Cause he's a good, rational guy and all.
what did you think of what i said though?

[SwingingMics]

Agreed. Should the document titled "Osama Bin Laden determined to strike within U.S' of given it away? No they ignored that. Seriously wtf!? I hate this government.

Land Of The Free. Pffftt. Right.
the previous administration had the same information, don't forget please.

[goddamngourd]

while we're time traveling why don't we just invest in alternate sources of energy and a usable mass transit system. maybe we could stop terrorism that way? or maybe we could take back some of the money we game osama to fight russians too.

[Cal Smith]

In hindsight if you had to kill your mother and father to prevent JFK from being assasinated would you?

No......

Are you seriously using that as your argument?

it's not an argument, it's a question. i really just want to see how anti-patriot act some of you are. I want to see if you really believe the provisions in it are that bad, that you would not even want it in place even if it directly stopped 9/11.

It's a legit question because in all truthness the new provisions could stop something like 9/11 in the future. Don't take it as an argument though because it's not.

[FASSWcore]

i'm concerned about this...but the ever-growing debt is more troubling, but i guess that doesn't matter, because i doubt a solution will ever be found

[Cal Smith]

Cause he's a good, rational guy and all.

i dont like savage either.

[Jason Tate]

the previous administration had the same information, don't forget please.
And don't forget the previous administration did something about it and had no attacks on us during their time. Don't forget certain (now fired) officials in the white house tried to draw attention to what the previous administration called a "high priority" - turns out, it got backburnered because the new white house didn't want to do anything the old was.

[Simulcast]

In hindsight if you had to kill your mother and father to prevent JFK from being assasinated would you?

Are you seriously using that as your argument? Hindsight is your argument? Dude, in hindsight we should have maybe done something about Pearl Harbor too right? Or that pesy Nazi thing. If we had been living without any rights at all - we could be pretty fucking protected right? I mean, we may need someone to liberate us in a few years - but for a while we'd be sooooo safe.

In hindsight, don't you think without the patriot act we still had enough information to prevent the attacks? Because I'd argue we do.

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry082803.asp

Might be a good idea to read up on the other side as well, since you only foster one-sided views on the topic. Cleary we did have enough information to prevent the acts prior to the patriot act but not the means to use it. One of the deals with the patriot act is the removal of the barrier that prevented the CIA and FBI from sharing important information which could have prevented the attack. We had the information, you are correct, but we did not have the means to utilize it to save 3000 innocent people. The patriot act clears this up, among other things.

[jawkneephighv]

kickass.

[finch macbeth]

I don't have anything to hide

[SwingingMics]

And don't forget the previous administration did something about it and had no attacks on us during their time. Don't forget certain (now fired) officials in the white house tried to draw attention to what the previous administration called a "high priority" - turns out, it got backburnered because the new white house didn't want to do anything the old was.
what did they do about it? appease the terrorists? osama could have been captured multiple times, but was not.

[Jason Tate]

what did you think of what i said though?
I think that I wish my President knew what he was talking about when he talked. I think it'd be a great idea not to make statements like I quoted above. If my President is all about security, be all about security - not just when you want to be - but all the time. I don't enjoy the hypocracy in this shit.. don't pass the patriot act with one hand and limit my freedoms while you open up a potential backdoor with the other hand. Don't say one thing, and do another.

[Simulcast]

i'm concerned about this...but the ever-growing debt is more troubling, but i guess that doesn't matter, because i doubt a solution will ever be found

The solution is to get Bush to veto a bill once and awhile. He signs every spending bill that comes across his desk. The only thing he will sign is the deal to give our ports to the UAE. Thats the craziest thing I have ever heard.

[Cal Smith]

The solution is to get Bush to veto a bill once and awhile. He signs every spending bill that comes across his desk. The only thing he will sign is the deal to give our ports to the UAE. Thats the craziest thing I have ever heard.

that's something i can agree with

[Jason Tate]

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry082803.asp

Might be a good idea to read up on the other side as well, since you only foster one-sided views on the topic. Cleary we didnt have enough information to prevent the acts prior to the patriot act. One of the deals with the patriot act is the removal of the barrier that prevented the CIA and FBI from sharing important information which could have prevented the attack. We had the information, you are correct, but we did not have the means to utilize it to save 3000 innocent people. The patriot act clears this up, among other things.
And if that was the only thing it did, I'd probably be all for it. Turns out packing a bunch of shit in a pretty container doesn't mean I'm buying...

[Jason Tate]

I don't have anything to hide
Famous last words ..

[goddamngourd]

The solution is to get Bush to veto a bill once and awhile. He signs every spending bill that comes across his desk.

yet fiscal conservatives vote for him...

[SwingingMics]

I think that I wish my President knew what he was talking about when he talked. I think it'd be a great idea not to make statements like I quoted above. If my President is all about security, be all about security - not just when you want to be - but all the time. I don't enjoy the hypocracy in this shit.. don't pass the patriot act with one hand and limit my freedoms while you open up a potential backdoor with the other hand. Don't say one thing, and do another.
what is he limiting you from doing? something illegal?

What hypocrisy? He didn't say all countries that have muslims are bad. He said Islamic extremists that involve themselves in terrorism is bad. The UAE ports still have to go through the same U.S. security measures as all other ports owned by different companies. UAE is an ally. You just want to be mad about Bush about something. You are generalizing that muslim countries are dangerous, by insinuating we lessen our security by dealing with the UAE, even though they are friendly with us.

[fromwithin]

The democrats need to make something happen one of these days.

they voted to pass it as well. the whole country is fucked up. there's no going back now, we've lost all privacy and now we're mere steps away from dictatorship, all in the name of "terrorism".

[Jason Tate]

what did they do about it? appease the terrorists? osama could have been captured multiple times, but was not.
Saddam could have been captured many times, but was not.

What's your point, we can point fingers all day long. The shit just keeps piling up. Pointing fingers at the political parties is fucking stupid; cause both sides are idiots. So is the patriot act and this port deal .. the thing is, instead of looking at the past, I think we should fix this shit before it gets worse.

[SwingingMics]

Saddam could have been captured many times, but was not.

What's your point, we can point fingers all day long. The shit just keeps piling up. Pointing fingers at the political parties is fucking stupid; cause both sides are idiots. So is the patriot act and this port deal .. the thing is, instead of looking at the past, I think we should fix this shit before it gets worse.
you only point fingers at one party. complaining doesn't fix anything either.

[Jason Tate]

what is he limiting you from doing? something illegal?

What hypocrisy? He didn't say all countries that have muslims are bad. He said Islamic extremists that involve themselves in terrorism is bad. The UAE ports still have to go through the same U.S. security measures as all other ports owned by different companies. UAE is an ally. You just want to be mad about Bush about something. You are generalizing that muslim countries are dangerous, by insinuating we lessen our security by dealing with the UAE, even though they are friendly with us.
I can't check out library books that I want to without the fear of being looked in on by my government. THAT'S NOT RIGHT. Period.

[Jason Tate]

you only point fingers at one party. complaining doesn't fix anything either.
I only point fingers at one party? What the fuck are you talking about? I point fingers all over the place dude ... geez.

[Simulcast]

And if that was the only thing it did, I'd probably be all for it. Turns out packing a bunch of shit in a pretty container doesn't mean I'm buying...

Thats not a volid statement. Notice that since the passing of the act, no attack has happened on U.S. soil. All parts of the patriot act were designed to protect american citizens, not to extend some orwellian power to the government for malicious purposes. There is a reason it passed both houses again. It is allowing us to use tools to capture the enemy before a disaster. You should read that article, as it shows other areas where the patriot act is useful. Im not trying to argue with you in anger, I just think its a good idea for both sides to be presented.

[Ryan Imhof]

:backs out of thread:

[SwingingMics]

I can't check out library books that I want to without the fear of being looked in on by my government. THAT'S NOT RIGHT. Period.
if you check out "how to build a home made bomb" you should be looked in on.

[SwingingMics]

I only point fingers at one party? What the fuck are you talking about? I point fingers all over the place dude ... geez.
ha

[Cal Smith]

I can't check out library books that I want to without the fear of being looked in on by my government. THAT'S NOT RIGHT. Period.

And again...........if this is so bad would you not suport it even if it could have stopped 9/11?

[SwingingMics]

I can't check out library books that I want to without the fear of being looked in on by my government. THAT'S NOT RIGHT. Period.
and...does that really invoke the sense of fear in you?

[Simulcast]

yet fiscal conservatives vote for him...

what fiscal conservatives are you talking about? check all the major conservative publications. they blast bush for his economic policies. Where do you get your facts?

[goddamngourd]

And again...........if this is so bad would you not suport it even if it could have stopped 9/11?

not letting us read certain books would stop 9/11?

[Jason Tate]

what is he limiting you from doing? something illegal?

What hypocrisy? He didn't say all countries that have muslims are bad. He said Islamic extremists that involve themselves in terrorism is bad. The UAE ports still have to go through the same U.S. security measures as all other ports owned by different companies. UAE is an ally. You just want to be mad about Bush about something. You are generalizing that muslim countries are dangerous, by insinuating we lessen our security by dealing with the UAE, even though they are friendly with us.

I'm generalizing that if we are 100% gung-ho about protecting America and our security, it makes NO SENSE to do something that could potentially lower our security. That's all. If it's a good move, right move, wrong move, whatever - THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE. The issue is I don't want my governement to use security as a guise to remove my freedom, and then forget about it when it benifits their pals. This that hard to follow?

[SwingingMics]

what fiscal conservatives are you talking about? check all the major conservative publications. they blast bush for his economic policies. Where do you get your facts?
agreed.. bush has spent more than most democrat presidents. which is where i'm not so much of a bush fan. he needs to be more fiscally conservative, smaller gov't, etc.

[fromwithin]

if you check out "how to build a home made bomb" you should be looked in on.
not everyone that builds bombs uses them for terrorist activities. if youre arabian and/or not a born citizen of this country check out the book then yes you should be looked in on, i dont care what they say, islam is not a peaceful religion when they talk about holy wars.

[SwingingMics]

I'm generalizing that if we are 100% gung-ho about protecting America and our security, it makes NO SENSE to do something that could potentially lower our security. That's all. If it's a good move, right move, wrong move, whatever - THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE. The issue is I don't want my governement to use security as a guise to remove my freedom, and then forget about it when it benifits their pals. This that hard to follow?
How are your freedoms removed? You can still do whatever you want. If you do something illegal, you'll be detained. How is that hard to follow?

[goddamngourd]

what fiscal conservatives are you talking about? check all the major conservative publications. they blast bush for his economic policies. Where do you get your facts?

no, those people know what's going on. i'm talking about regular joe voter who likes to look at the tax cuts bush is so happy with regardless of all the spending he's been doing in office.

[Cal Smith]

not letting us read certain books would stop 9/11?

i'm talking about the patriot act itself, not neccesarily that one provision.

[Jason Tate]

and...does that really invoke the sense of fear in you?
Yes, it actually does. Because I happen to read history books - a lot of them. And that's just for starters ... this is the shit we know about, you KNOW 10x as much is going on that we don't know about. I don't like the idea of being dragged and interrogated somewhere where my friends/family can't reach me or know where I am .. based on a suspicion or faulty intelligence (fingerprint/madrid bombing).

[goddamngourd]

i'm talking about the patriot act itself, not neccesarily that one provision.

yeah i know, just nit-picking

[nfggc10]

not everyone that builds bombs uses them for terrorist activities. if youre arabian and/or not a born citizen of this country check out the book then yes you should be looked in on, i dont care what they say, islam is not a peaceful religion when they talk about holy wars.
there's no good reason to check out a homemade bomb making book....

[SwingingMics]

Yes, it actually does. Because I happen to read history books - a lot of them. And that's just for starters ... this is the shit we know about, you KNOW 10x as much is going on that we don't know about. I don't like the idea of being dragged and interrogated somewhere where my friends/family can't reach me or know where I am .. based on a suspicion or faulty intelligence (fingerprint/madrid bombing).
reasonable suspicion, 4th amendment. do you not like the constitution?

[Simulcast]

I'm generalizing that if we are 100% gung-ho about protecting America and our security, it makes NO SENSE to do something that could potentially lower our security. That's all. If it's a good move, right move, wrong move, whatever - THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE. The issue is I don't want my governement to use security as a guise to remove my freedom, and then forget about it when it benifits their pals. This that hard to follow?

This is paranoia at best. The President and Congress are tasked by the Constitution to protect american citizens. What would they gain by removing our freedoms? You want to know a real danger to freedom? Taxes. Now thats some scary crap. the Government has more power in taxation then in anything else. That was the whole reason for america's creation in the first place. The constitution states that it is the purpose of the government to protect the people. And under this act. I feel more secure.

[fromwithin]

you want to know why this is wrong i'll put it point blank:

more than HALF of the 20 "terrorists" that were on the planes on 9/11 are STILL ALIVE. this has been proven. now how do you feel.

[SwingingMics]

you want to know why this is wrong i'll put it point blank:

more than HALF of the 20 "terrorists" that were on the planes on 9/11 are STILL ALIVE. this has been proven. now how do you feel.
you are an idiot.

[Cal Smith]

you want to know why this is wrong i'll put it point blank:

more than HALF of the 20 "terrorists" that were on the planes on 9/11 are STILL ALIVE. this has been proven. now how do you feel.

damn.........how'd the survive the crash?

[Jason Tate]

And again...........if this is so bad would you not suport it even if it could have stopped 9/11?
You sound like a parrot. You can't just make things up here..

A) We probably could have prevented 9/11 without it.

B) If it was in place and we DON'T stop a terrorist attack, does that mean it can be tossed right away?

C) If the DoRky's law of USA (meaning I kill all muslims and none are allowed in the USA) could have stopped 9/11 does that mean it's right!? And that I should support it?

[goddamngourd]

you want to know why this is wrong i'll put it point blank:

more than HALF of the 20 "terrorists" that were on the planes on 9/11 are STILL ALIVE. this has been proven. now how do you feel.

if the terrorists can teleport off planes, they've already won.

[Jason Tate]

there's no good reason to check out a homemade bomb making book....
There's not? My friends that live on farms check them out to blow up stumps on their property all the time ...

[Jason Tate]

This is paranoia at best. The President and Congress are tasked by the Constitution to protect american citizens. What would they gain by removing our freedoms? You want to know a real danger to freedom? Taxes. Now thats some scary crap. the Government has more power in taxation then in anything else. That was the whole reason for america's creation in the first place. The constitution states that it is the purpose of the government to protect the people. And under this act. I feel more secure.
And the purpose of the people is to keep the government in check. We have checks and balances in place for a reason, the patriot act circumvents them.

[nfggc10]

There's not? My friends that live on farms check them out to blow up stumps on their property all the time ...
Tell them to prepare for a few phone calls then....

[Jason Tate]

How are your freedoms removed? You can still do whatever you want. If you do something illegal, you'll be detained. How is that hard to follow?
And what about the people who have done NOTHING illegal, and are detained? What about them? Or the people that have done NOTHING illegal, yet are being watched. Or the people that are doing NOTHING illegal but are having their assets frozen?

[Simulcast]

You sound like a parrot. You can't just make things up here..

A) We probably could have prevented 9/11 without it.

B) If it was in place and we DON'T stop a terrorist attack, does that mean it can be tossed right away?

C) If the DoRky's law of USA (meaning I kill all muslims and none are allowed in the USA) could have stopped 9/11 does that mean it's right!? And that I should support it?

You admitted that we could not have prevented 9/11 prior to the patriot act in your retort to my first comment. there was an intelligent gap that the patriot act fixed. Your last point is not valid as well. no one has ever said that all muslims are terrorists, so there would never be a need for that. Even Bush has made it clear on that issue. No plan is perfect, but for the last 5 years, no attack has happened. I cannot stress that enough.

[Jason Tate]

Tell them to prepare for a few phone calls then....
Because that's what happens .. a phone call. Hahahahaha.

*RING*
"Hey, you a terrorist?"
- "Nope"
"Okay, sorry for bothering you"
*CLICK*

[SwingingMics]

And the purpose of the people is to keep the government in check. We have checks and balances in place for a reason, the patriot act circumvents them.
congress passed it, executive branch signs it. how does that circumvent checks and balances?

[Jason Tate]

You admitted that we could not have prevented 9/11 prior to the patriot act in your retort to my first comment. there was an intelligent gap that the patriot act fixed. Your last point is not valid as well. no one has ever said that all muslims are terrorists, so there would never be a need for that. Even Bush has made it clear on that issue. No plan is perfect, but for the last 5 years, no attack has happened. I cannot stress that enough.
Yet you seem to ignore the fact that for the years prior to 9/11 without the patriot act, no such attack occured either. Neither of these arguments are valid logic. So stress them all you want, but it's faulty by design.

[fromwithin]

you are an idiot.

look up their names. a few work for a saudi airline. it has been researched.

[Cal Smith]

You sound like a parrot. You can't just make things up here..

A) We probably could have prevented 9/11 without it.

Has nothing to do with what i said, and i wouldnt argue that anyways. we probably could have stopped it without the act.

B) If it was in place and we DON'T stop a terrorist attack, does that mean it can be tossed right away?

No, it just means that we would need to look at the act and where it went wrong. (see how easy it is to answer likely hypotheticals)

C) If the DoRky's law of USA (meaning I kill all muslims and none are allowed in the USA) could have stopped 9/11 does that mean it's right!? And that I should support it?

I'm not familier with this, but I would say NO if what you say in bold is correct. If this law was in place and stopped 9/11 I would still not support it. (again see how easy it is to answer hypotheticals).

[Jason Tate]

congress passed it, executive branch signs it. how does that circumvent checks and balances?
Eh, the provisions themselves dude ... the provisions themselves.

[SwingingMics]

Yet you seem to ignore the fact that for the years prior to 9/11 without the patriot act, no such attack occured either. Neither of these arguments are valid logic. So stress them all you want, but it's faulty by design.
There was a bomb detonated in the WTC prior to 9/11.

[aminorthreat55]

You admitted that we could not have prevented 9/11 prior to the patriot act in your retort to my first comment. there was an intelligent gap that the patriot act fixed. Your last point is not valid as well. no one has ever said that all muslims are terrorists, so there would never be a need for that. Even Bush has made it clear on that issue. No plan is perfect, but for the last 5 years, no attack has happened. I cannot stress that enough.
Nice mix of fallacy of composition and post hoc ergo propter hoc you've got there.

[Simulcast]

And the purpose of the people is to keep the government in check. We have checks and balances in place for a reason, the patriot act circumvents them.

No it does not. Checks and balances refers to the three branches of government. All three approve of the patriot act, that was shown today. If it was so dangerous to our freedoms, the system would have rooted them out.

I have to get to class, but i must say you are a joy to argue with. No sarcasm there, you are informed on your stuff. This is what political debate should be like.

[SwingingMics]

Eh, the provisions themselves dude ... the provisions themselves.
still had to be passed and signed. checks and balances.

[Simulcast]

Nice mix of fallacy of composition and post hoc ergo propter hoc you've got there.

Thanks for the lesson in logic. My point was made, and I couldn't care less what your entry level college course on logic has taught you.

[Jason Tate]

There was a bomb detonated in the WTC prior to 9/11.
In 1993. So, from then 'till 9/11 sans Patriot Act - no attack.

Once again, the logic for with/without - no attack/attack - IS A COMPLETE FALLACY.

[Jason Tate]

still had to be passed and signed. checks and balances.
I understand this conversation is starting to go over your head, and it hasn't been discussed in this detail on your local talk show - but come on, try and keep up here.

[aminorthreat55]

Thanks for the lesson in logic. My point was made, and I couldn't care less what your entry level college course on logic has taught you.
Your point sucks, and that's my point. And entry level college course on logic? HA. Anyone who isn't an idiot should know what those are.

[SwingingMics]

In 1993. So, from then 'till 9/11 sans Patriot Act - no attack.

Once again, the logic for with/without - no attack/attack - IS A COMPLETE FALLACY.
We went 8, it's been 5 plus now. We can speculate on when / if there will be another attack, but the Patriot Act is implemented to help prevent / lessen an attack. So far, success. Several attacks that were supposed to take place in Los Angeles have been thwarted, because of the Patriot Act.

[SwingingMics]

I understand this conversation is starting to go over your head, and it hasn't been discussed in this detail on your local talk show - but come on, try and keep up here.
Um...i was the one who had to tell you what checks and balances meant. Why are you getting angry? Gotta lash out personally when you are losing.

[Jason Tate]

still had to be passed and signed. checks and balances.
Well, while the POTUS sits around with his "Special Powers" (circumventing the Checks and Balances) and the P.A is here making sure that people can spy on me without all the same checks and balances to make it legal and have a good enough reason (library habits are not a good enough reason for me). It irks me.

[SwingingMics]

I understand this conversation is starting to go over your head, and it hasn't been discussed in this detail on your local talk show - but come on, try and keep up here.
also, i don't have cable.

[Simulcast]

Your point sucks, and that's my point. And entry level college course on logic? HA. Anyone who isn't an idiot should know what those are.

I like how you have facts to back up your thinking. My point sucks, why? Do all my points suck? I'm not writing an essay here, these responses are quick. So if i slip up, big deal. My points are still getting across.

[Jason Tate]

We went 8, it's been 5 plus now. We can speculate on when / if there will be another attack, but the Patriot Act is implemented to help prevent / lessen an attack. So far, success. Several attacks that were supposed to take place in Los Angeles have been thwarted, because of the Patriot Act.
They were thwarted? When did these arrests and trials happen!?! I missed this!?!? Link please! I want to make sure those terrorists are given justice! How could I have missed this!!!!!

And do you kids not understand the simple fact that this is not good logic:

I wore red, I didn't get punched today; therefore, wearing red is a successful deterrent from getting punched.

You can't tie things together like that.

[IAPAI]

I can't check out library books that I want to without the fear of being looked in on by my government. THAT'S NOT RIGHT. Period.

That's such a good point. They would "Red Flag" so many books it would be sick - NOT just ones about "how to build a bomb"

[Cal Smith]

If I could get at least 1 person to answer my easy, straight forward, very plausible situtational question I'd be very appreciative.

[SwingingMics]

They were thwarted? When did these arrests and trials happen!?! I missed this!?!? Link please! I want to make sure those terrorists are given justice! How could I have missed this!!!!!
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/09/bush.terror/

http://usinfo.state.gov/usinfo/Archive/2006/Feb/09-891525.html

[Simulcast]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/09022006/323/bush-allies-thwarted-terrorist-plot-attack-los-angeles.html

link, detailing their capture.

[Fury15]

<- Moving to Canada.
bye ***got

[Jason Tate]

If I could get at least 1 person to answer my easy, straight forward, very plausible situtational question I'd be very appreciative.
It's because you're using the following: appeal to pity, false dilemma, and prejudicial language - all in an attempt to smuggle your agenda into this thread. What's worse is that you KNOW you're doing it (and I bet 3 or 4 kids fall for it in this thread anyways).

[Cal Smith]

too bad bush knocked down the towers

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=911

he was in his "Republican War Machine" with Cheney.

[Jason Tate]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/09/bush.terror/

http://usinfo.state.gov/usinfo/Archive/2006/Feb/09-891525.html
Yah, and the sarcasm in my post was - just because the big 'ol government says something; doesn't mean I believe it. Especially when I don't see anyone in jail or any trials over it ...

[rufiocardtime]

while the patriot act may not be the BEST solution to our problems, i think our country has bigger fish to fry. i feel like the CIA is a bigger potential threat to my personal security than the patriot act is. you never really hear people discuss the obvious problems we have with our government's system of intelligence. or maybe i'm just crazy.

[Jason Tate]

he was in his "Republican War Machine" with Cheney.
Did he shoot him in the chest and try and cover it up too?

[SwingingMics]

Yah, and the sarcasm in my post was - just because the big 'ol government says something; doesn't mean I believe it. Especially when I don't see anyone in jail or any trials over it ...
just read the articles. or the one the other guy posted. they say who is in jail.

[aminorthreat55]

I like how you have facts to back up your thinking. My point sucks, why? Do all my points suck? I'm not writing an essay here, these responses are quick. So if i slip up, big deal. My points are still getting across.
No, not all your points suck; I haven't read all your points. But as Jason has been saying and like I said with my "entry level college course horseshit", your point isn't the absolute truth you want it to be. You stated that no attacks have occurred in the last five years and insinuated that this is because of the Patriot Act. But is it? Does one document change everything like that? No.

And do you kids not understand the simple fact that this is not good logic:

I wore red, I didn't get punched today; therefore, wearing red is a successful deterrent from getting punched.

You can't tie things together like that.
....

I'm thoroughly excited to continue splitting hairs on this matter for the rest of the evening.

[Cal Smith]

It's because you're using the following: appeal to pity, false dilemma, prejudicial language, to attempt and smuggle your agenda into this thread.

lol, give me a break Jason. You tossed out hypotheticals and I answered them directly with Yes and No responses. Fact is, or at least I believe the fact is, that you would probably say YES. You would want the current provisions of the Patriot Act in place if they had directly led to stopping the attacks on 9/11.

Because I truly believe you don't think the Patriot Act is so bad, that you would rather have 3000 Americans dead than to be able to check out a book without the possiblity of it being flagged. That is something each and every one of us must consider when it comes to the Patriot Act........How far should we go with it? And the answer is you should go as far as to the point you're willing to sacrifice the lives of Americans for it. With the hypothetical you posted about that law of killing muslims. I can honestly tell you that I would rather have 3,000 Americans dead on September 11th than to have some sort of law providing the slaughtering of muslims.

Difference between me and you is that I've had a gut check and can admit it. You'll just dance around it.

[rufiocardtime]

It's because you're using the following: appeal to pity, false dilemma, and prejudicial language - all in an attempt to smuggle your agenda into this thread. What's worse is that you KNOW you're doing it (and I bet 3 or 4 kids fall for it in this thread anyways).

having a personal agenda? oh no, jason tate knows nothing about smuggling in personal agendas.

the irony is that you douched on somebody else for hypocrisy - as if none of us have EVER been hypocritical. if you're without fault, then by all means, cast the first stone.

[Jason Tate]

lol, give me a break Jason. You tossed out hypotheticals and I answered them directly with Yes and No responses. Fact is, or at least I believe the fact is, that you would probably say YES. You would want the current provisions of the Patriot Act in place if they had directly led to stopping the attacks on 9/11.

Because I truly believe you don't think the Patriot Act is so bad, that you would rather have 3000 Americans dead than to be able to check out a book without the possiblity of it being flagged. With the hypothetical you posted about that law of killing muslims. I can honestly tell you that I would rather have 3,000 Americans dead on September 11th than to have some sort of law providing the slaughtering of muslims.

Difference between me and you is that I've had a gut check and can admit it. You'll just dance around it.

I tossed out hypotheticals hoping to lead by example at how fucking stupid they were. The fact that you answered them was comical to me (and hopefully others that got my joke).

I also don't sit here and pretend there are 2 solutions: Patriot Act (and save 3000 people) or no Patriot Act (and 3000 people die) - that sort of thinking is fucking stupid. Come on; you can do better than a false dilemma.

I think we can (and could have) saved 3000 people without ANY books being flagged or a whole bunch of the other bullshit tied into the Patriot Act. There were and are better ways to thwart terrorists that don't include fucking with rights I believe to be inalienable.

[Jason Tate]

having a personal agenda? oh no, jason tate knows nothing about smuggling in personal agendas.

the irony is that you douched on somebody else for hypocrisy - as if none of us have EVER been hypocritical. if you're without fault, then by all means, cast the first stone.
I try not to do it under the mask of improper logic, I come out and tell you what I am thinking and why I think that way. I do my best to avoid double-talk and scummy tactics - because I think the truth and the material speaks far better than attempting to bait someone with pity and sympathy.

I think there's a difference.

[aminorthreat55]

I tossed out hypotheticals hoping to lead by example at how fucking stupid they were. The fact that you answered them was comical to me (and hopefully others that got my joke).

I also don't sit here and pretend there are 2 solutions: Patriot Act (and save 3000 people) or no Patriot Act (and 3000 people die) - that sort of thinking is fucking stupid. Come on.

I think we can (and could have) saved 3000 people without ANY books being flagged or a whole bunch of the other bullshit tied into the Patriot Act. There were and are better ways to thwart terrorists that don't include fucking with rights I believe to be inalienable.
Bingo.

[rufiocardtime]

I try not to do it under the mask of improper logic, I come out and tell you what I am thinking and why I think that way. I do my best to avoid double-talk and scummy tactics - because I think the truth and the material speaks far better than attempting to bait someone with pity and sympathy.

I think there's a difference.

i'm simply saying that, just as you have been hypocritical in your life and just as i have been hypocritical in my life and just as every single one of us has been hypocritical at times, don't you think the MOST hypocritical thing of all would be to douche on somebody else for hypocrisy?

yet you are trying to make some justification for yourself?

[Jason Tate]

i'm simply saying that, just as you have been hypocritical in your life and just as i have been hypocritical in my life and just as every single one of us has been hypocritical at times, don't you think the MOST hypocritical thing of all would be to douche on somebody else for hypocrisy?

yet you are trying to make some justification for yourself?
I may have just glossed over whatever post you're refering to, cause I don't remember using the word hypocritical in a postin this thread - but I've been listening to music too loud, have a headache, and am not paying attention much to what I type. So pardon me for not really following what you're in reference too..

[rufiocardtime]

I think that I wish my President knew what he was talking about when he talked. I think it'd be a great idea not to make statements like I quoted above. If my President is all about security, be all about security - not just when you want to be - but all the time. I don't enjoy the hypocracy in this shit.. don't pass the patriot act with one hand and limit my freedoms while you open up a potential backdoor with the other hand. Don't say one thing, and do another.

refresher

[underthetalking]

This thread went crazy.

People need to chill out.

[Jason Tate]

refresher
I was referring to the hypocrisy in my government, so yes, I do hold them to a higher standard then I do myself. I feel as a US Citizen, I've earned my right to cast a stone at their hypocracy regardless of my own, because hey, I pay for that right.

[Kyner]

The Patriot Act is the greatest piece of legislation ever passed! The Constitution, psssh who needs that. Basic freedoms, liberty, the right to know why you're being held, hogwash! We should ignore that whole article in the Constitution that gives Congress the power to declare war. Oh wait....

[Cal Smith]

I tossed out hypotheticals hoping to lead by example at how fucking stupid they were. The fact that you answered them was comical to me (and hopefully others that got my joke).

I also don't sit here and pretend there are 2 solutions: Patriot Act (and save 3000 people) or no Patriot Act (and 3000 people die) - that sort of thinking is fucking stupid. Come on.

I think we can (and could have) saved 3000 people without ANY books being flagged or a whole bunch of the other bullshit tied into the Patriot Act. There were and are better ways to thwart terrorists that don't include fucking with rights I believe to be inalienable.

Again when it comes to gut check time you have to be willing to admit the bad when you believe in something.

I'll admit I'll take September 11th over a law that allows for slaughtering of muslims.
But in the future if the current provisions directly stopped another 9/11 type attack it'd be well worth it.

You have to, have to, have to, measure it on bases of what's too far in civil liberties. And I dont think the current provisions are too far if they save American lives. Now allowing government agencies to walk into your house with no evidence or anything at all would be to far.

[Jason Tate]

Again when it comes to gut check time you have to be willing to admit the bad when you believe in something.

I'll admit I'll take September 11th over a law that allows for slaughtering of muslims.
But in the future if the current provisions directly stopped another 9/11 type attack it'd be well worth it.

You have to, have to, have to, measure it on bases of what's too far in civil liberties. And I dont think the current provisions are too far if they save American lives. Now allowing government agencies to walk into your house with no evidence or anything at all would be to far.
And again, you're pretending there are only 2 solutions (options) in this equation. That's simply not true. I don't have to decide what's too far in civil liberties to save american lives, because I don't believe many of these provisions do in fact need to be in place to save said american lives. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think american lives can be saved without looking at my library records or freezing my JC Penny credit payments.

[rufiocardtime]

I was referring to the hypocrisy in my government, so yes, I do hold them to a higher standard then I do myself. I feel as a US Citizen, I've earned my right to cast a stone at their hypocracy regardless of my own, because hey, I pay for that right.

the "casting the first stone" part was more directed towards smuggling in your personal agendas.

[Cal Smith]

And again, you're pretending there are only 2 solutions (options) in this equation. That's simply not true. I don't have to decide what's too far in civil liberties to save american lives, because I don't believe many of these provisions do in fact need to be in place to save american lives. I think american lives can be saved without looking at my library records or freezing my JC Penny credit payments.


So I'm assuming this would mean you do think some do need to be implemented?

And as for the last part in bold, you're probably right. On the other hand, these can help increase your odds of catching someone. And I dont believe that they are that infrinding on our civil liberites that they shouldnt be in place if the increase our chances of stopping another attack like 9/11.

[Jason Tate]

the "casting the first stone" part was more directed towards smuggling in your personal agendas.
Then I guess I am totally lost on what you're actually saying/asking me. I thought I answered both parts ..

[Jason Tate]

So I'm assuming this would mean you do think some do need to be implemented?

And as for the last part in bold, you're probably right. On the other hand, these can help increase your odds of catching someone. And I dont believe that they are that infrinding on our civil liberites that they shouldnt be in place if the increase our chances of stopping another attack like 9/11.
And my point is, there are plenty of things that could probably aid in the capture/prevention of another 9/11 - that doesn't mean we employ them. Especially when it's not needed. That portion of the P.A is completely bogus in my opinion.

Internment camps were a GREAT idea in preventing attacks on the US during WW2, but turns out - not such a great idea when we look back on it ... I think this may be a similar matter, and while it seems so great now, and not such a big deal, it could have far worse consequences in the future.

[flynmnkyo'death]

yes, I'm so glad that our freedoms are flying out the window. I mean shouldn't we all be happy that the government spies on all of us and robs us of our privacy?

[Cal Smith]

And my point is, there are plenty of things that could probably aid in the capture/prevention of another 9/11 - that doesn't mean we employ do them. Especially when it's not needed. That portion of the P.A is completely bogus in my opinion.

Well in a round-about way you are some what answering my question without answering it. Again, the point of the question was to see how "anti-patriot act" you and others were. If you are wiling to admit that some the the provisions are useful, and neccesary tools then we can agree to disagree. I just happen to think the provisions like the library records, increase our odds and is not such an extreme step that it shouldnt be implemented.

My real problem is with the one's who want the whole thing overturned. Take the person posting above me as exhibit A :lol:

[flynmnkyo'death]

The patriot act might be beneficial but i think it needs to be redrawn.

[Saves The Night]

i'm not happy...neither am I

[Saves The Night]

And again, you're pretending there are only 2 solutions (options) in this equation. That's simply not true. I don't have to decide what's too far in civil liberties to save american lives, because I don't believe many of these provisions do in fact need to be in place to save said american lives. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think american lives can be saved without looking at my library records or freezing my JC Penny credit payments.I agree, the PA seems more of a legal way into snooping into decent peoples lives and having an excuse for it.

[robbietheperson]

I love how quick everybody is to throw out what the previous administration has screwed up with as if we have a die-hard devotion to the previous administration. You people think entirely too close-mindedly. Just because I'm against the patriot act, it doesn't mean I'm in the back room sucking bill clinton off. And the fact that you assume that shows how biased you are in YOUR thought process. I do not live by the preferences my parents and their parents have made for years before I was born. I do not drone on like a zombie, victim to the choices of my social, racial, economical and age demographics. Please flush that argument down your red, white, and blue toilet.

i love my country. but I dont love it enough to become a robot with a upc code in place of a name.

[rufiocardtime]

Then I guess I am totally lost on what you're actually saying/asking me. I thought I answered both parts ..

you did. i'm just trying to make a point that HAVING an agenda isn't necessarily bad. the agenda itself may be bad, and you can attack that itself, but we all have agendas.

[TyroneShoolaces]

the previous administration had the same information, don't forget please.

i'm not a Democrat or Republican. both sides are fucked up.

[heyRomanticA__x]

America: You only matter if you're a suspected terrorist.

[domesticyeti]

the logic that the patriot act has since prevented any terrorist attack on the united states is pretty fucked up. When you read or study terrorist behavior, it takes YEARS to plan and execute a large scale attack ala-9/11. It's been around 5 years. And we're waging war on them in afghanistan (i call that the real war). To think that they could've planned and set in motion a huge attack since then is retarded.
Secondly, the LA attacks...my first complaint is- Why did most of this information become public so recently, as opposed to when they allegedly were "thwarted"
and my second complaint- when i read the synopsis of the attack, it said that they were planning on using airplanes. As incapacitated and terrorists may be, i doubt that a high profile organization like al-Qaeda would try the same trick twice, knowing that we have marshalls and preventions on our aircrafts



The Patriot Act has good intentions. But it's really just a piece of shit. It violates the constitution by A) destroying free speech- librarians internet service providers know when you are being investigated, but are bound by a gag order to not be allowed to inform you for your own safety.
B) destroying the fourth amendment- there is no 'reasonable' search and seizure. It can be done on the basis of the FBI seeing it relevent. And they don't need judicial approval anymore. So if go out today and Buy something like Bowling For Columbine or An Al Franken book, they could search all of my personal records, belongings, library and internet history, and then detain and question me. Without a warrant, or judicial approval. That is fucked up. If you have a terrorist suspect, it should NOT be that difficult to obtain a warrant.
C) It's too complex for people of average intelligence to understand. That violates the constitution. I read the Patriot Act for my Research Paper, and except for the online synopsis and brief introductions, it's fucking impossible to tell what they're saying. It looks like this

D) 6: in replacement; or; "The" in subsection D of paragraph 354 A

Fighting terrorism is a good thing. But this is taking it to far. We have an army and intelligence agencies (which we should be using to find Bin Laden. I mean, come on. There is NO WAY we haven't been able to get this guy) I have had the patriot act enacted against me before. I go to a bookstore and pickup a Stephen King novel, they check me out, and i go home. I went there and got Dude Wheres my Country for my friend, and they asked for my name and address. Something isnt right with that. This is really just a completely unecessary law, that was bred out of fear, and is now being cultivated in a fearful environment (terrorist threat level:yellow-ELEVATED!). We could getting just as much done by fixing up the FBI and CIA. If our intelligence agency mistakenly finds weapons that don't exist, how can we seriously expect them to find real terrorists?

It's a question between a sense of security and God Given Freedom.
I would hope that freedom wins.

[twilightcitykid]

FUCK the patriot act.

First of all, dare I say, 9/11 was the shadiest operation of all time.
Buildings collapse from fires? I don't buy the jet fuel story either. those buildings came down and it looked like a planned, controlled demolition. cell phone calls can't be made from 33,000 feet. half of the supposed "hijackers" are still alive and living well in other countries. WTC 7 mysteriously collapsed at 4:30 in the afternoon. what about the janitors who testified to bombs going off inside the basement of the towers seconds before the impact of the aircraft? Bin laden has always been in bed with the most wealthy and corrupt. however, even the video where he supposedly "admitted to orchestrating 9/11" shows a man who sort of looks like Osama but clearly isn't. The CIA used to fund and train the taliban and the al-qaeda.

but dont believe me, watch the video "loose change". you can google it. it's just one of many underground attempts to pursue the truth behind September 11th.

the whole incident wasn't investigated enough and indicates an inside job. uh oh, dare i envoke a paradigm shift. yes, people, the ruling class are ruthless and wicked. no one was ever even officially proven as the true culprit of 9/11, yet we wasted no time immediately declaring "War" and an almost militaristic social state. all of a sudden Donald Rumsfeld gets an ungodly defense budget of global conquest proportions, "terrorists" are our new enemy, and we have the Patriot Fuck Act. this act undermines the constitution and all of our basic freedoms and rights. very similar to Germany in 1940. doesn't anyone feel we may be headed toward a fascist state at this rate?

you can call me paranoid, but this is hardcore reality. the truth hurts. we have to think and analyze things with logic and reason.

[TheNumberOneFan]

this passed through the senate already?? i didn't even hear about that

[Ambulance X]

FUCK the patriot act.

First of all, dare I say, 9/11 was the shadiest operation of all time.
Buildings collapse from fires? I don't buy the jet fuel story either. those buildings came down and it looked like a planned, controlled demolition. cell phone calls can't be made from 33,000 feet. half of the supposed "hijackers" are still alive and living well in other countries. WTC 7 mysteriously collapsed at 4:30 in the afternoon. what about the janitors who testified to bombs going off inside the basement of the towers seconds before the impact of the aircraft? Bin laden has always been in bed with the most wealthy and corrupt. however, even the video where he supposedly "admitted to orchestrating 9/11" shows a man who sort of looks like Osama but clearly isn't. The CIA used to fund and train the taliban and the al-qaeda.

but dont believe me, watch the video "loose change". you can google it. it's just one of many underground attempts to pursue the truth behind September 11th.

the whole incident wasn't investigated enough and indicates an inside job. uh oh, dare i envoke a paradigm shift. yes, people, the ruling class are ruthless and wicked. no one was ever even officially proven as the true culprit of 9/11, yet we wasted no time immediately declaring "War" and an almost militaristic social state. all of a sudden Donald Rumsfeld gets an ungodly defense budget of global conquest proportions, "terrorists" are our new enemy, and we have the Patriot Fuck Act. this act undermines the constitution and all of our basic freedoms and rights. very similar to Germany in 1940. doesn't anyone feel we may be headed toward a fascist state at this rate?

you can call me paranoid, but this is hardcore reality. the truth hurts. we have to think and analyze things with logic and reason.

Yeah and we never went to the moon either. You are a fool.

The sooner Bush signs this into law, the better.

[falloutfan29]

i dont like to post on here because i dont want internet drama but this is something i feel like i have to speak up on. i believe something is wrong when americans are videotaped an average of 70 tmes a day just going about daily business. i believe it is wrong when a government can listen to my phone calls just because they want to without any provocation. i believe its wrong i get red flagged at books a million for buying a copy of a book on the kennedy assassination. in the last four years americans have seen their civil liberties demolished piece by piece while being systematically lied to by people who will never have to experience these losses nor the pain of losing a family member in battle. one of my friends dad was sent to iraq after four years of retirement at the age of 55 and he came back in a box and a letter. the patriot act would not have prevented 9/11 and to say that is incredibly uninformed and makes any more of your points hard to even consider. you can mention the 93 wc bombings if you want, but the only attack on u.s. soil in the last 100 years that even compares to 9/11 was pearl harbor so a whole 5 years without an attack really isnt that great when innocent americans are dying everyday 5000 miles from their friends and families for what is now the 3rd cause that this administration has given us for that war. im scared and im not afraid to admit it. i fear that our rights not just as americans but as humans are being taken away from us while we sit silently by and nod our heads that "yep no terrorism if we just do what they say". the patriot act had nothing to do with the lax incident. in the article bush praises foreign countries help in preventing that attack. stay indoors and lockup tight because our government knows what songs youre listening to right now and you better hope they like them.

good luck to everyone

[andrewlterry]

Wow you all must be extremely paranoid if you think the government gives a shit about tapping your phone lines, etc.. You must be really special to have the government spend their time and money on you. Geez. Get a grip.

[ArmorForStephen]

And don't forget the previous administration did something about it and had no attacks on us during their time. Don't forget certain (now fired) officials in the white house tried to draw attention to what the previous administration called a "high priority" - turns out, it got backburnered because the new white house didn't want to do anything the old was.
what about the World Trade Center bombing on February 26, 1993, the OK City bombing on April 19, 1993, and the Unabomber during mid-1990s? I'd say those are attacks that happened during the previous adminstration's tenure. So, you can not say "no" attacks happened? Just letting ya know.

[disneywj]

Yeah and we never went to the moon either. You are a fool.

The sooner Bush signs this into law, the better.

Im not gonna say whether i agree with the first guy or not, but dont just think something isnt true because it may sound a little outlandish.

[3milesdown]

this reminds me of WWII and the japanese. wow what a great idea, japs can't attack us. 5 years later it's a horrible idea. with this passed, it may seem like we're doing something for the best, but 5 years later people will realize that the invasion of privacy, human rights, and the constituion were all ignored just for "terrorism".

[splitsecond]

FUCK the patriot act.

First of all, dare I say, 9/11 was the shadiest operation of all time.
Buildings collapse from fires? I don't buy the jet fuel story either. those buildings came down and it looked like a planned, controlled demolition. cell phone calls can't be made from 33,000 feet. half of the supposed "hijackers" are still alive and living well in other countries. WTC 7 mysteriously collapsed at 4:30 in the afternoon. what about the janitors who testified to bombs going off inside the basement of the towers seconds before the impact of the aircraft? Bin laden has always been in bed with the most wealthy and corrupt. however, even the video where he supposedly "admitted to orchestrating 9/11" shows a man who sort of looks like Osama but clearly isn't. The CIA used to fund and train the taliban and the al-qaeda.

but dont believe me, watch the video "loose change". you can google it. it's just one of many underground attempts to pursue the truth behind September 11th.

the whole incident wasn't investigated enough and indicates an inside job. uh oh, dare i envoke a paradigm shift. yes, people, the ruling class are ruthless and wicked. no one was ever even officially proven as the true culprit of 9/11, yet we wasted no time immediately declaring "War" and an almost militaristic social state. all of a sudden Donald Rumsfeld gets an ungodly defense budget of global conquest proportions, "terrorists" are our new enemy, and we have the Patriot Fuck Act. this act undermines the constitution and all of our basic freedoms and rights. very similar to Germany in 1940. doesn't anyone feel we may be headed toward a fascist state at this rate?

you can call me paranoid, but this is hardcore reality. the truth hurts. we have to think and analyze things with logic and reason.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[kittypants]

i'm glad it passed. all you dissenters, can you think of anyone in your life that has been affected by the so called "ridiculous infringements on your rights" because i can't!

[HIDEOUSstrength]

shit storm galore

[foisol]

I dunno who else is on AbsolutePunk is, that is viewing this thread, but I'm a born Muslim. Not Arab... but still.

And even though I was born here, raised here (though lived abroad for a while) this does matter to me.

And to the guy before me who said "can you think of anyone in your life that has been affected by the so called "ridiculous infringements on your rights" because i can't!"

Though not a close acquaintance, I met a man a year back, studying to become a sound engineer, having his computers and equipment seized for review. This was a pain and he came out clean, but wasn't even given an apology. Sad because that was his source of income.

[Java Nick]

look up their names. a few work for a saudi airline. it has been researched.
i read about this. pretty weird. not saying i agree with it, but still, it makes you wonder.

and no, it's not paranoia or unpatriotic to ask questions about the way in which our government functions and handles certain matters. it's called rational thinking. try it sometime.

[1000shadesofred]

:bikeride:

Give away the ports while we're at it, I mean, "Americans shouldn't be concerned with their security" or anything ...

true... maybe if we would stop bombing other countries, we wouldnt have to worry about those countried coming after us

[1000shadesofred]

<- Moving to Canada.

hahhaah im with ya on that one

[1000shadesofred]

Using hindsight, they had enough information to prevent the attacks WITHOUT the Patriot Act.

bingo!!! eat that cal

[1000shadesofred]

Yeah and we never went to the moon either. You are a fool.

The sooner Bush signs this into law, the better.

actually the fool... the sooner bush signs this, the sooner we can kiss your freedoms and happiness goodbye... our country is heading down a shitstorm spiral to mayhem

[wesgemm08]

United States of America: The 4th Roman Empire

[1000shadesofred]

FUCK the patriot act.

First of all, dare I say, 9/11 was the shadiest operation of all time.
Buildings collapse from fires? I don't buy the jet fuel story either. those buildings came down and it looked like a planned, controlled demolition. cell phone calls can't be made from 33,000 feet. half of the supposed "hijackers" are still alive and living well in other countries. WTC 7 mysteriously collapsed at 4:30 in the afternoon. what about the janitors who testified to bombs going off inside the basement of the towers seconds before the impact of the aircraft? Bin laden has always been in bed with the most wealthy and corrupt. however, even the video where he supposedly "admitted to orchestrating 9/11" shows a man who sort of looks like Osama but clearly isn't. The CIA used to fund and train the taliban and the al-qaeda.

but dont believe me, watch the video "loose change". you can google it. it's just one of many underground attempts to pursue the truth behind September 11th.

the whole incident wasn't investigated enough and indicates an inside job. uh oh, dare i envoke a paradigm shift. yes, people, the ruling class are ruthless and wicked. no one was ever even officially proven as the true culprit of 9/11, yet we wasted no time immediately declaring "War" and an almost militaristic social state. all of a sudden Donald Rumsfeld gets an ungodly defense budget of global conquest proportions, "terrorists" are our new enemy, and we have the Patriot Fuck Act. this act undermines the constitution and all of our basic freedoms and rights. very similar to Germany in 1940. doesn't anyone feel we may be headed toward a fascist state at this rate?

you can call me paranoid, but this is hardcore reality. the truth hurts. we have to think and analyze things with logic and reason.

honestly guys, i just watched the video this kid is talking about it.... seriously, WATCH IT, it should open your eyes... im not saying im fully convinced, but it puts up a hell of an argument and excellent proof 9/11 was a conspiracy developed by our government... just another way to instill fear into us citizens so the government can create more power for themselves while we are left with none

[thesego211]

actually the fool... the sooner bush signs this, the sooner we can kiss your freedoms and happiness goodbye... our country is heading down a shitstorm spiral to mayhem
i'd love for you to elaborate on that. is that it? how exactly is this going to take our freedom away? how is this going to change your everyday life? or do you just know that bush wants it, so it must be horrible. give me an example. you can't, no one has.

[thesego211]

true... maybe if we would stop bombing other countries, we wouldnt have to worry about those countried coming after us
right.... because if we were just nice to the islamo-fascists, they would leave us alone, right?

[thesego211]

I dunno who else is on AbsolutePunk is, that is viewing this thread, but I'm a born Muslim. Not Arab... but still.

And even though I was born here, raised here (though lived abroad for a while) this does matter to me.

And to the guy before me who said "can you think of anyone in your life that has been affected by the so called "ridiculous infringements on your rights" because i can't!"

Though not a close acquaintance, I met a man a year back, studying to become a sound engineer, having his computers and equipment seized for review. This was a pain and he came out clean, but wasn't even given an apology. Sad because that was his source of income.
better safe than sorry.

[Cal Smith]

honestly guys, i just watched the video this kid is talking about it.... seriously, WATCH IT, it should open your eyes... im not saying im fully convinced, but it puts up a hell of an argument and excellent proof 9/11 was a conspiracy developed by our government... just another way to instill fear into us citizens so the government can create more power for themselves while we are left with none

Ya'll should look at this site (http://www.bushisantichrist.com/)too, because it might open your eyes as well.

[westsidas2000]

the patriot act would not have prevented 9/11.

[foisol]

right.... because if we were just nice to the islamo-fascists, they would leave us alone, right?

I'm interested in knowing why you think these "islamo-fascists" are so pissed at the United States.

[1000shadesofred]

right.... because if we were just nice to the islamo-fascists, they would leave us alone, right?

how is islam/muslims fascists?????????? explain that smart guy

[1000shadesofred]

Ya'll should look at this site (http://www.bushisantichrist.com/)too, because it might open your eyes as well.

alright tony tough nuts... i obviously dont take that into account as anywhere near the truth, so dont think i would reguard that as worth while to delve into...that fact of the matter is that we as citizens know JACK SHIT about what goes on outside of our lives... we have to rely on second hand accounts of everything to even know what is goin on ( aka the news, media, newspapers, the internet)... and how are we to know that all of that is even entirely true... either way unless we saw 9/11 we dont know shit about it other than the crap they fed to us on the news...thats why I, as a rational, open minded, liberal human being, am just tryin to see as many sides of the story as i can... instead of most people who just turn on the tube everyonce and a while to see the 20 minutes of bullcrap news they feel is worthy of showing us... and most of the time its all just put on there to instill fear in us anyway, so i just try and delve a little deeper

[1000shadesofred]

i'd love for you to elaborate on that. is that it? how exactly is this going to take our freedom away? how is this going to change your everyday life? or do you just know that bush wants it, so it must be horrible. give me an example. you can't, no one has.

the patriot basically gives the government more power, so they can spy on us, more power so they can save us from these "terrorists", and more power, so we are left with even less say in what goes on in our country

[rufiocardtime]

I'm interested in knowing why you think these "islamo-fascists" are so pissed at the United States.

our government's job is not to win global favor with different cultures and religions. our governments job is to defend national security, not to win a popularity contest.

[foisol]

our government's job is not to win global favor with different cultures and religions. our governments job is to defend national security, not to win a popularity contest.

Truth. It is the government's job to defend national security... and that's not something you do by pissing off other countries with the potential and/or history of terrorism/freedom-fighting

[rufiocardtime]

Truth. It is the government's job to defend national security... and that's not something you do by pissing off other countries with the potential and/or history of terrorism/freedom-fighting

I don't think you realize that the people that have always hated our country have always hated our country because we live in freedom. There's plenty of people that hate our country for everything that our country stands for and always has stood for, regardless of the Bush administration or any mistakes it's made. Therefore, the way to protect our national security is not to win the popularity of other countries or other people. Our country has always gone against the grain of the rest of the world.

The solution here is not to tip toe around terrorists. Not saying that the best solution is fighting a war in Iraq either...

[foisol]

I don't think you realize that the people that have always hated our country have always hated our country because we live in freedom. There's plenty of people that hate our country for everything that our country stands for and always has stood for, regardless of the Bush administration or any mistakes it's made. Therefore, the way to protect our national security is not to win the popularity of other countries or other people. Our country has always gone against the grain of the rest of the world.

The solution here is not to tip toe around terrorists. Not saying that the best solution is fighting a war in Iraq either...

We should definetely hunt down all these people who kill large amounts of people... it's unfortunate it's taken 9/11 for it to really get underway, but what do I know?

And I'm sorry I'll have to disagree with you. I don't think that everyone who disapproves of our country and it's actions are that close-minded. Unfortunately people do hold grudges and the United States has (or has not) done some things previous administrations need to be held responsible for. I'm just scared that Iraq and Afghanistan (and Iran looks like a good bet to be next) will be another one of those actions that the American people will regret.

With that said... I like living here and I like people here. I pretty much grew up in New York and when September 11th happened, I had just left the country 3 days before because I was going to an international school abroad. I don't think the news ever struck me and my family so much as it did that day. The only other time my parents seemed to really care was back when they were my age and when Princess Diana died, but that's just a deshi thing.

[rufiocardtime]

We should definetely hunt down all these people who kill large amounts of people... it's unfortunate it's taken 9/11 for it to really get underway, but what do I know?

And I'm sorry I'll have to disagree with you. I don't think that everyone who disapproves of our country and it's actions are that close-minded. Unfortunately people do hold grudges and the United States has (or has not) done some things previous administrations need to be held responsible for. I'm just scared that Iraq and Afghanistan (and Iran looks like a good bet to be next) will be another one of those actions that the American people will regret.

With that said... I like living here and I like people here. I pretty much grew up in New York and when September 11th happened, I had just left the country 3 days before because I was going to an international school abroad. I don't think the news ever struck me and my family so much as it did that day. The only other time my parents seemed to really care was back when they were my age and when Princess Diana died, but that's just a deshi thing.

but while there are a small outspoken group of extremists that hate America over in Iraq, for the most part, 25 million people are all excited that for the first time in their lives they get to vote for their own leader and live in a democracy rather than under a tyrant. and THAT is truly a noble thing. but a lot of our motivation is still oil. no doubt about it. that doesn't make all the atrocities ok, but i would have to say that the liberation of 25 million people is a very GOOD thing that gets very little attention, especially in the media, regardless of whether or not we were suppose to be there because of weapons of mass destruction. even if we didn't go for weapons of mass destruction, even if we JUST went to give 25 million oppressed people a new life, i would be ok with that.

[foisol]

but while there are a small outspoken group of extremists that hate America over in Iraq, for the most part, 25 million people are all excited that for the first time in their lives they get to vote for their own leader and live in a democracy rather than under a tyrant. and THAT is truly a noble thing. but a lot of our motivation is still oil. no doubt about it. that doesn't make all the atrocities ok, but i would have to say that the liberation of 25 million people is a very GOOD thing that gets very little attention, especially in the media, regardless of whether or not we were suppose to be there because of weapons of mass destruction. even if we didn't go for weapons of mass destruction, even if we JUST went to give 25 million oppressed people a new life, i would be ok with that.

agreed that the liberation of the Iraqi people (at least the undeservingly oppressed) is a good thing.

i still don't agree with the United States going to war and all that.. because Saddam should have been removed ages ago, etc etc.

It's sad that North Korea has nuclear weapons and no oil... not to mention Japan and South Korea (U.S. allies) rest so closely within reach of the North Korean militaries. a humanitarian effort there would be good.