Nba Mvp

[yeat182]

Just wondering who people think should win MVP this year. I know all the usual suspects (kobe, nash, iverson) but is anyone considering Paul Pierce? I'm not saying he should neccesarily win it, but i think he deserves consideration. I never really thought of him as an MVP before, i always thought he was a top player and all star but not an MVP, but this year he's showing a lot more, which is surpirsing since everyone thought he'd be unhappy playing on a losing team with a bunch of young players and little to know hope. Now he's got the team playing very well, and while they don't win all the time, they are enjoyable to watch and he's having the best season of his career. Just wondering what people's thoughts are on who should win and who should be considered.

[xearlynovemberx]

^^ pierce has about a good of a chance as i do of getting laid by pam and carmen

[somethingyellow]

caleb and most people know my view ;)

[mikeford]

if he keeps playing like this for the rest of the season, he should finish in the top 7.

steve nash is gonna win it though.

[itsjdiggity]

Pierce is not an MVP candidate because of their record but damn he is underrated

[still_life]

Kobe, as long as they make the playoffs

[itsjdiggity]

Lamar Odom

[LeftWideOpen]

Pierce is not an MVP candidate because of their record but damn he is underrated

seriously. the celtics have no business even winning as many games as they do but pierce is bailing us out. Tonight was insane ...he's finally growing up and turning into a leader.

He seems to be much happier since Davis was traded away.

[FondestMemory]

pierce is having a hell of a season. no doubt about it. but he has no chance of getting the mvp.

the argument for why he should be considered is pretty strong, but still. this year there seems to be more deserving mvp candidates than any other year i remember recently. normally it's a clear cut winner, or just down to one or two people.

but there's so many arguments for so many people, that a player like pierce gets lost in the shuffle. washington fans can make the same kind of case for arenas. i think it comes down to kobe or nash, with probably nash winning. but there's lebron, dirk, chauncey, iverson and a few others that could make a very strong case if this were any other season.

[itsjdiggity]

Danny Ainge would be a fool to trade him

[ActorInThisPlay]

Iverson, Nash, Brand are my top 3

[Drew Beringer]

Nash.

[Doug]

Kobe, but Pierce is making a strong run for it. Especially if you've watched a Celtics game this year.

[Caleb Cattivera]

if pierce were on a team that won, yes. sadly, he's on the celtics...which may not be sad next year if gomes keeps up his play, jefferson plays to his potential, and doc rivers is fired.

like still life said, if the lakers make the playoffs, i think kobe gets it. brand and dirk may round out the top three. both are having marvelous seasons.

[Caleb Cattivera]

also, although he doesnt have a shot at winning. i think chris paul at least deserves some votes.

[changas]

CP is playing ridiculously good for his rookie year on a team with not that many bright sparks

but i think the overwhelming majority are voting for nash here...and he's damn good and deserves it too

[Brownpants06]

This was on PTI last night, no way because the celtics are so bad.

Nash has it on lockdown this year.

[Scott Weber]

If Nash does not win, it's an absolute travesty. NOBODY deserves to win like he does.

[Scott Weber]

p.s., paul pierce. hahahahha. hahahahahahahahahaa. HAHAHAHAHA. He's having a great year, but come on. Paul Pierce? His numbers can't compete with numerous other candidates. I wouldn't even consider him a top 5 candidate at this point.

[LeftWideOpen]

p.s., paul pierce. hahahahha. hahahahahahahahahaa. HAHAHAHAHA. He's having a great year, but come on. Paul Pierce? His numbers can't compete with numerous other candidates. I wouldn't even consider him a top 5 candidate at this point.

there isn't anyone playing better than him right now, but you are right ..he won't make the Top 5 because it took this team way too long to get it together. The Celts trading Davis was the best thing that ever happened to him.

[yeat182]

This was on PTI last night, no way because the celtics are so bad.

Nash has it on lockdown this year.


the celtics aren't that bad, at least not much worse than the lakers. if the celts make the playoffs then you can't really use that arguement and then say someone like Kobe deserves it, because his team isn't great either.

[LeftWideOpen]

the celtics aren't that bad, at least not much worse than the lakers. if the celts make the playoffs then you can't really use that arguement and then say someone like Kobe deserves it, because his team isn't great either.

i'm thrilled about the celtics, and i'm not saying we take peter may's advice and tank it because he's a moron, but i wouldn't hold your breath on the playoffs.

[somethingyellow]

Caleb,are you still sticking by "nash has no chance, and isnt even being considered top 3" It seems that most people on here beg to differ

[Doug]

p.s., paul pierce. hahahahha. hahahahahahahahahaa. HAHAHAHAHA. He's having a great year, but come on. Paul Pierce? His numbers can't compete with numerous other candidates. I wouldn't even consider him a top 5 candidate at this point.

have you looked at his numbers? 27.3 PPG 7.00 RPG 4.7 APG 30 Points in 13 of his last 14 games and 8 in a row. Whose numbers are these so far below??

Maybe it's just that I can't stand Steve Nash, but thinking of him winning the MVP two years in a row with so many amazing players in the league at the peaks of their careers who are better than him is a travesty.

[Scott Weber]

there isn't anyone playing better than him right now, but you are right ..he won't make the Top 5 because it took this team way too long to get it together. The Celts trading Davis was the best thing that ever happened to him.
You have to play at a sustainable, incredible level all year long to win the MVP. He's had a great past month, but his January wasn't impressive. Even if Pierce were to come in serious consideration, there's no way he'd pass Kobe. If it's Pierce/Kobe, it's Kobe, every time - fortunately, Nash is having an even better year than last year - and Phoenix is kicking ass without Amare, something nobody thought they could do without him. Nash makes everybody else better, period.

[somethingyellow]

have you looked at his numbers? 27.3 PPG 7.00 RPG 4.7 APG 30 Points in 13 of his last 14 games and 8 in a row. Whose numbers are these so far below??

Maybe it's just that I can't stand Steve Nash, but thinking of him winning the MVP two years in a row with so many amazing players in the league at the peaks of their careers who are better than him is a travesty.It's not about what is fair to other players, it is who deserves the mvp most. If at the end of the year Nash does, then it shouldn't be a travesty at all

[Doug]

You have to play at a sustainable, incredible level all year long to win the MVP. He's had a great past month, but his January wasn't impressive. Even if Pierce were to come in serious consideration, there's no way he'd pass Kobe. If it's Pierce/Kobe, it's Kobe, every time - fortunately, Nash is having an even better year than last year - and Phoenix is kicking ass without Amare, something nobody thought they could do without him. Nash makes everybody else better, period.

Kobe, but Pierce is making a strong run for it. Especially if you've watched a Celtics game this year.

i mean, i said that anyway, but regardless. even before this month he was playing the best basketball of his career and has been averaging more rebounds and assists than kobe all year.

still, kobe would get it over pierce unless pierce sprung for like 82 in a game.

[Scott Weber]

have you looked at his numbers? 27.3 PPG 7.00 RPG 4.7 APG 30 Points in 13 of his last 14 games and 8 in a row. Whose numbers are these so far below??

Maybe it's just that I can't stand Steve Nash, but thinking of him winning the MVP two years in a row with so many amazing players in the league at the peaks of their careers who are better than him is a travesty.
Kobe - 35.4 ppg, 5.4 rebounds, 4.6 assists. More steals and more blocks, and less turnovers.
Lebron james - 30.6 PPG, 7.0 RPG, 6.8 APG. More steals, blocks, and less turnovers - Lebron is clearly ahead of Pierce in nearly all statistical categories, and their FG% are almost identical.

I'd also put Nowiztki ahead of Pierce because of the leader he's been for the Mavericks this year, and he's helping them win. You also have to put Chauncey ahead of Pierce because of how much he's stepped it up and been the general of that incredible Pistons team. But still, nobody touches Nash - nobody. He may be the best player in the NBA right now, seriously. It's not just about stats (which are amazing) but it's about his ability to win, to make players successful where they wouldn't be elsewhere (Diaw, Bell, QRich last year). Amare wouldn't be half the player he is without Steve Nash.

[Doug]

It's not about what is fair to other players, it is who deserves the mvp most. If at the end of the year Nash does, then it shouldn't be a travesty at all

i'm not saying what's fair, i'm saying that there are better players playing at a higher level. i really thinkkobe deserves it this year.

[Scott Weber]

i mean, i said that anyway, but regardless. even before this month he was playing the best basketball of his career and has been averaging more rebounds and assists than kobe all year.

still, kobe would get it over pierce unless pierce sprung for like 82 in a game.
You should realllllly look at Pierce's game logs for January. He only scored over 30 once, and he was under 20 a game numerous times. He's having the best year of his career, but it's not a breakthrough year. He's been a solid player for quite some time. Playing awesome for just a part of the season doesn't make up for non-MVP first half performance.

[Scott Weber]

i'm not saying what's fair, i'm saying that there are better players playing at a higher level. i really thinkkobe deserves it this year.
Kobe doesn't make other players around him better, he doesn't make his team WIN like Nash does.

[somethingyellow]

Kobe doesn't make other players around him better, he doesn't make his team WIN like Nash does.exactly, and if the lakers can't even make the playoffs then he shouldn't deserve to win it

[Scott Weber]

exactly, and if the lakers can't even make the playoffs then he shouldn't deserve to win it
agreed...I really think that if Kobe was more unselfish and got his teammates involved, they'd win a lot more games

[still_life]

Kobe doesn't make other players around him better, he doesn't make his team WIN like Nash does.

I don't know when MVP ever turned into that crap, but it stands for Most Valuable Player, and that's what Kobe is. Lakers win 18 games max without Kobe. He's the most valuable player to his team, and he's having a fantastic year. Suns would still win 35-40 games without Nash (and without Amare).

[somethingyellow]

I don't know when MVP ever turned into that crap, but it stands for Most Valuable Player, and that's what Kobe is. Lakers win 18 games max without Kobe. He's the most valuable player to his team, and he's having a fantastic year. Suns would still win 35-40 games without Nash (and without Amare).Part of being so valuable is making players around you better. In doing so it makes your team better which is a reason why you would be so valuable. I still have a hard time believing the suns would win 35-40 games without nash and amare. 42-17 is the suns record now with their most dominant player not playing all year and losing 2 key players to their great run last year.

[still_life]

Part of being so valuable is making players around you better. In doing so it makes your team better which is a reason why you would be so valuable. I still have a hard time believing the suns would win 35-40 games without nash and amare. 42-17 is the suns record now with their most dominant player not playing all year and losing 2 key players to their great run last year.

Isn't there a stat that the Lakers are something like 1-10 when Odom (clearly the 2nd best player on LA) takes 15 shots? So when Kobe lets his best teammate (and the next gap between 2nd and 3rd is huge) shoot more, they're almost winless. And I bet their record when Kobe scores less than 20 or 25 is well under .500. They need him more than any team needs their star, and he's came up big in most of the games.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Dirk

[Caleb Cattivera]

the kobe is selfish argument is so stupid. im just going to cut and paste yesterdays espn insider, since it says what ive been saying for the last three months.

Los Angeles Lakers

Team Strengths
You do not have to go any further than Kobe Bryant and Phil Jackson to talk about the Lakers' strengths. Kobe can play and Phil can coach.

Bryant has the highest Player Efficiency Rating in the NBA. He did not have to drop 81 points for people to come to the conclusion that he is the best in the game. He is also the only perimeter player among the stars who is a superior defender.

Jackson's teams always make the playoffs. All 14 of his teams have made the playoffs.

Team Weaknesses
Bryant's supporting cast is inconsistent and Lamar Odom has not proven he can be the sidekick that Scottie Pippen was to Michael Jordan.

For all the talk about Bryant being selfish, take into account that the Lakers were 9-4 in January when Bryant averaged 43.4 ppg and 4-8 when he averaged only 31.8 in February.

In addition Odom, Smush Parker and Chris Mihm struggle from the foul line.

Coaching Style
Clearly, Jackson understands the mental side of the game. He understands relationships and never misses a chance to tweak the minds of his team.

The triangle offense is a thing of beauty when it is executed with skilled players and it seems to be improving down the stretch. Bryant seems to be sharing the ball more, which is a good news/bad news story on this team.

Coaching Challenges
Jackson always will be trying to balance Bryant's great offensive skills and the triangle offense. He probably will have to let his superstar determine the balance himself.

Jackson also must get into the head of Odom and get him to be a more consistent performer.

Looking Ahead
The Lakers have the most favorable schedule of anyone locked in the battle for the last playoff spots. They have 12 of their last 23 at home. They finish the season with their last five games at the Staples Center. A huge advantage.

[Scott Weber]

I don't know when MVP ever turned into that crap, but it stands for Most Valuable Player, and that's what Kobe is. Lakers win 18 games max without Kobe. He's the most valuable player to his team, and he's having a fantastic year. Suns would still win 35-40 games without Nash (and without Amare).
Absolutely not. The Suns barely win 25 games without Nash and Amare this year, hands down - and that's if somebody steps up. Most analysts said Phoenix wouldn't even make the playoffs this year without Amare - Nash has proven them completely wrong and demonstrated how incredible he is to that team. Kobe is obviously very valuable, but he does not make those around him better - so when Kobe has an off night, it's bad news for the Lakers. Nash can not score a single point and still lead his team to victories with his court vision and passing ability.

[mikeford]

by that token, the celtics win ZERO games without pierce.

[still_life]

Something interesting about Kobe "not making his teamates better"

Smush Parker is averaging a career high in points, assists, rebounds
Chris Mihm is averaging a career high in points, assists, FG%
Lamar Odom's assists are up from last year with the Lakers
Brian Cook is averaging a career high in points, assists, and rebounds

For so little around him in terms of talent and experience, guys are improved players.

[still_life]

Absolutely not. The Suns barely win 25 games without Nash and Amare this year, hands down - and that's if somebody steps up. Most analysts said Phoenix wouldn't even make the playoffs this year without Amare - Nash has proven them completely wrong and demonstrated how incredible he is to that team. Kobe is obviously very valuable, but he does not make those around him better - so when Kobe has an off night, it's bad news for the Lakers. Nash can not score a single point and still lead his team to victories with his court vision and passing ability.

You just proved the point for Kobe being MVP.

[still_life]

The Lakers are 4-6 when Kobe scores 25 or less in a game. For one, that's incredible he has only been under 25 in 10 games, and two, the 10th leading scorer in the NBA doesn't even average 25 a game. In 28 losses, Kobe's numbers are pretty even to what he does in the wins, and I think that's very important.

[Scott Weber]

Something interesting about Kobe "not making his teamates better"

Smush Parker is averaging a career high in points, assists, rebounds
Chris Mihm is averaging a career high in points, assists, FG%
Lamar Odom's assists are up from last year with the Lakers
Brian Cook is averaging a career high in points, assists, and rebounds

For so little around him in terms of talent and experience, guys are improved players.

1. Smush Parker never got a chance to start before this year, his increased minutes and the natural development of a young player are why his numbers are higher than ever - he's on the court now.
2. Chris Mihm's numbers are BARELY up (.5 ppg, .3 apg, and .001 FG% - you're REALLY stretching this argument here) and they're virtually identical to last years - you also failed to mention that he's decreased in rebounds and blocks, despite averaging more minutes.
3. Odom's assists are up from feeding the ball to Kobe all game, and Kobe's shooting and scoring more than ever - I don't see how that's a relevant statistic at all, and he's also down in almost every other statistical category - again, way to not mention that.
4. This is also Brian Cook's first year as a part-time starter, he's averaging more minutes which can attest to his slightly improved rebounds and points (.2 and 2.0, respectively)

Basically, those numbers don't prove shit. These guys are getting more minutes than ever, so that's why their numbers are going up, plus, they're young players that have developed. I don't buy for one second that Kobe makes his teammates better by a considerable amount. Does he? Sure. Is it anywhere close to other players in the NBA? Absolutely not.

[Scott Weber]

You just proved the point for Kobe being MVP.

The Lakers are 4-6 when Kobe scores 25 or less in a game. For one, that's incredible he has only been under 25 in 10 games, and two, the 10th leading scorer in the NBA doesn't even average 25 a game. In 28 losses, Kobe's numbers are pretty even to what he does in the wins, and I think that's very important.

No, I proved the point that Nash is more valuable because he does so much more than scoring. If Nash is out of the lineup, the Suns are completely fucked - you just showed when Kobe doesn't score, the Lakers lose. When Nash doesn't score, he still contributes to the team in other ways.

When Nash scores less than 15 points, the Suns are 11-2. He also had at least 10 assists in 9 of those games. End of debate.

[somethingyellow]

No, I proved the point that Nash is more valuable because he does so much more than scoring. If Nash is out of the lineup, the Suns are completely fucked - you just showed when Kobe doesn't score, the Lakers lose. When Nash doesn't score, he still contributes to the team in other ways.

When Nash scores less than 15 points, the Suns are 11-2. He also had at least 10 assists in 9 of those games. End of debate.:appl:

[Drew Beringer]

Nash over Kobe. Kobe is too one-dimensional. If you're starting a team from scratch, you'd be nuts to take Kobe over Nash. Scorers in the NBA are dime a dozen. Nash is one of a kind.

[still_life]

Wow you suck at sports debates. You pretty much prove everything for me without me having to say it.

Kobe is playing with a bunch of scrubs that have almost no experience, yet you expect him to turn them into all stars? He has to carry the team on his back every night if they're going to win, moreso than anyone else in the league.

When Nash scores less than 15 points, the Suns are 11-2. He also had at least 10 assists in 9 of those games. End of debate.

Meaning he still contributes less to the scoreboard than Kobe does. Plus Kobe could only wish he had Marion and Diaw.

A good pass ain't shit if the guy can't hit the shot, and Kobe doesn't have the teammates that can keep hitting shots.

[still_life]

Bryant has the highest Player Efficiency Rating in the NBA. He did not have to drop 81 points for people to come to the conclusion that he is the best in the game. He is also the only perimeter player among the stars who is a superior defender.

I don't know anything about how they calculate that, but it has to mean something, given he's taking so much of the offensive load, and still being the most efficient in the league.

[Scott Weber]

Wow you suck at sports debates. You pretty much prove everything for me without me having to say it.

Kobe is playing with a bunch of scrubs that have almost no experience, yet you expect him to turn them into all stars? He has to carry the team on his back every night if they're going to win, moreso than anyone else in the league.


Meaning he still contributes less to the scoreboard than Kobe does. Plus Kobe could only wish he had Marion and Diaw.

A good pass ain't shit if the guy can't hit the shot, and Kobe doesn't have the teammates that can keep hitting shots.
Nah, you should just stick to football. Nobody's expecting Kobe to turn guys into all-stars, and Lamar Odom is hardly a scrub, and Smush Parker is a very capable player. We're just taking different approaches to this. I feel like Kobe is NOT as valuable to his team as Nash because the Lakers live and die by his offensive performance. Meanwhile, when Nash doesn't score, he STILL makes his team win - that's true value, beyond offensive perfomance. And it's not like Nash is a poor offensive player - 19.4 PPG is damn good considering how much he dishes the ball. Nash helps in multiple aspects, and Kobe helps in mainly one...scoring. With both players out of the lineups, both teams wouldn't make the playoffs, not even close. I think that's clear. But there in lies the tiebreaker for me, the fact that Nash can do so much more than Kobe (and Nash could easily score 26 a game if he wanted to) and finds a way for his team to win, no matter what his offensive output.

People said the same thing about Q. Richardson and they do Diaw this year. Look at Q Rich now that he doesn't have Nash passing to him all the time - yikes. He's having an awful year in NY, and he can't shoot at all - forcing shots because he's not given any good looks.

P.S. - I'm still laughing at the list of players you posted, and how they were so much better. That really was quite comical.

[still_life]

You're taking the approach that MVP means something it doesn't, and your logic is completely flawed.

I feel like Kobe is NOT as valuable to his team as Nash because the Lakers live and die by his offensive performance. Meanwhile, when Nash doesn't score, he STILL makes his team win

See? That makes zero sense. If you live and die by a player's performance, and he's playing brilliant, he's the MVP. If you still win because you have a guy that averages a double double, and a guy with 2 triple doubles this year, you're just part of a good team with a good head coach.

I think I saw something that Nash might not play tonight and they're playing the Spurs, so if they struggle, don't even try and use that in your argument, because it is the 47-13 defending champion Spurs they're playing.

People said the same thing about Q. Richardson and they do Diaw this year. Look at Q Rich now that he doesn't have Nash passing to him all the time - yikes. He's having an awful year in NY, and he can't shoot at all - forcing shots because he's not given any good looks.

NY being such an awful team has a lot to do with it.

[Scott Weber]

This article sums up my feelings on it, even though I've stated more to it than that:

How on earth can you suggest someone other than Steve Nash should win this year's MVP?

Newsflash: The Sun has better numbers than he did last season … when he won the MVP. And the Suns have the third-best record in the West despite playing without Amare Stoudemire the whole season.

This year's MVP race should be as lopsided as 2000's, when Shaquille O'Neal would have won unanimously had Fred Hickman, now of ESPN, not tried to be unique. That Nash might not win -- that plenty of people are arguing Kobe Bryant or LeBron James should win the MVP when their teams are a combined 10 games over .500 while the Suns are 33-17 -- is inexplicable.

So inexplicable that the mere mention of another candidate makes me wonder how Nash won a season ago.

Last season, Nash won the trophy for the immaculate way he conducted the league's best offense. The Suns were a beautiful, wide-open symphony that hinged on Nash's ability to allow brilliant soloists like Stoudemire, Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson to play great melodies while players like Quentin Richardson held the beat by staying within themselves, only showing flourishes when called upon. Phoenix played basketball's beautiful game, and Nash served as Pele.

And the Suns did it without a center. That's bumping without bass, but they kept it funky. A great deal of the credit for that should go to Mike D'Antoni's compositions, but they would have gone nowhere without Nash holding the baton.


More importantly, Nash is unquestionably Phoenix's best player while Stoudemire recovers from microfracture surgery on his left knee. In fact, he's the only go-to player the Suns have. As dazzling as Marion's physical gifts are, it's become clear he'll always be what James Worthy was asked to be -- an on-call scorer and lane-filler on the break, not a dominant franchise-type player as Worthy could have been. It is Nash who is asked to win games, whether that means making the big 3 or penetrating and making the right decision.


Nash continues to find the open man at the right time.
Here's something anyone with League Pass or the ability to stay up for games on the West Coast can tell you -- Steve Nash is the best point guard in the NBA. Allen Iverson is a better player, but calling him a point guard because he brings the ball up the floor is like putting a kitten in the oven and calling it a biscuit.

This year, the Suns again lead the Pacific Division. And while trading Joe Johnson for the surprisingly effective Boris Diaw proved to be a wash (and quite possibly a fleecing by Phoenix considering the first-round picks the Suns got from the Hawks in the sign-and-trade), there is no substitute for the injured Stoudemire. The Suns didn't just lose what Stoudemire gave them last year. They lost the improvements he made over the summer, most notably a more consistent perimeter jumper that could put him in the same stratosphere as Tim Duncan.

Yet the band has kept making great music, the same way NWA kept churning out hits after Ice Cube left. Cube was great, but Dr. Dre was the masterful maestro that made the group work. Nash is Dre, even if it sounds strange to put him next to a hip-hop producer.

Perhaps this could be explained more easily were there clear criteria for determining the MVP. There are some who feel the trophy should go to the best player; others feel it should go to the most indispensable; and a host more value various shades of gray. What's undeniable, though, is that picking up big stats while chauffeuring a team of vagabonds in a hovercraft above basketball's Mendoza line just isn't good enough.

The last time a player won the MVP without leading a division champion was 1988, when Michael Jordan won the award in his best individual season. Jordan racked up 35.0 points, 5.5 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks on the way to winning both the scoring title and Defensive Player of the Year, in an era when the league's stars often appeared allergic to defense. That's possibly the best individual season in league history, and Jordan did all that while leading the Bulls to their first 50-victory season in 14 years. His play and numbers were so staggering that any measure that didn't reward such performance with the MVP couldn't be legitimate.

That's the standard that Bryant and James must compete with as they vie for the MVP trophy. Neither comes close.

Bryant's numbers are similar to Jordan's -- he's scoring at a slightly higher rate with one less rebound and assist per game -- but the Lakers' record is 26-25 and they're eighth in the West.

Thanks for stopping by the booth, Mamba.

Nash should get to hoist another MVP trophy at the end of this season.
So what other reason is there to consider another candidate?
We might have to revisit last year's controversy over the MVP. What seemed ridiculous last year, that Nash's candidacy was buoyed by the color of his skin, might be plausible in retrospect. Phoenix's record is worse at this point than it was last season, but few truth-tellers would say they expected the Suns to be this good for this long without Stoudemire. In fact, the Suns' third-best in the West record is nearly as impressive as their emergence from nowhere to post the best record in the league last season.

Unless Stoudemire's adequate replacement, Kurt Thomas, is better than he's looked for the last 10 years.

Did Nash win the MVP last season because he's white? That sounded preposterous a year ago, and I wish it sounded preposterous now. But if Nash could win the trophy last year and not be the runaway choice this year, then something strange is brewing. Maybe the Miami Herald's Dan Le Betard was right when he said the public's affection for the underdog led voters to Nash, the guy that looks like an underdog to the lazy, untrained eye. Perhaps the novelty of The Little Engine That Could is gone and the urge to praise the unlikely candidate was quenched by last year's show of sentimentality. Or maybe one white MVP every 20 years is enough to keep the masses satisfied.


That might sound ridiculous. But it would be 10 times as tripped-out to consider any other MVP. The MVP has almost always rewarded team success combined with standout individual performance, the same way the sun almost always rises. Only Nash can truly make that claim this year.

If Nash's performance last season was good enough, this year's must be too. Otherwise, something is very wrong.

[Scott Weber]

You're taking the approach that MVP means something it doesn't, and your logic is completely flawed.

See? That makes zero sense. If you live and die by a player's performance, and he's playing brilliant, he's the MVP. If you still win because you have a guy that averages a double double, and a guy with 2 triple doubles this year, you're just part of a good team with a good head coach.

NY being such an awful team has a lot to do with it.
No, it does make sense, and how you're not seeing it is beyond me. Kobes scores, Lakers win - like 60% of the time, maybe. Sometimes, Kobe often scores 40+ and his team will still lose. That's not MVP ball, not historically. Kobe doesn't score, he shoots 40 shots from the field Lakers lose - without Kobe recognizing he's having an off night. Kobe keeps shooting, and shooting, and shooting, and when it doesn't fall, it's game over. He's shown he lacks the ability to step away from himself and get others the ball when he's having an off night.. He's had nights where he has done this, but the Lakers record shows it's few and far between. Nash scores, Suns win. Nash doesn't score, he picks up other aspects of his game and Suns win. Kobe/Nash out of the lineup, they both lose.

[still_life]

Sometimes, Kobe often scores 40+ and his team will still lose. That's not MVP ball

But they don't lose because of Kobe. They'd be blown out often if it wasn't for his efforts.

Lakers are 2-0 when Kobe takes 40+ shots this season. Maybe he should do it more often.

[somethingyellow]

If the lakers don't make the playoffs, do you still think kobe should get mvp still life?

[Scott Weber]

Good players on bad teams don't win MVP awards. Winners win the award. That's just the way it is, and there's no reason to change that now.

[Spicoli hey bud]

1) Dirk
2) Nash
3) Tony Parker
4) Kobe

[Scott Weber]

and 9-9 when he takes more than 30 shots. Meh.

[Brownpants06]

I don't know when MVP ever turned into that crap, but it stands for Most Valuable Player, and that's what Kobe is. Lakers win 18 games max without Kobe. He's the most valuable player to his team, and he's having a fantastic year. Suns would still win 35-40 games without Nash (and without Amare).


Take away kobe and nash from their respective teams, which would fail more?


I would say the Suns. (Kobe would be replaced with some other hot shot shooter, where the lakers would remain the same. Take away Nash and you have the Knicks).

[Spicoli hey bud]

Take away kobe and nash from their respective teams, which would fail more?


I would say the Suns. (Kobe would be replaced with some other hot shot shooter, where the lakers would remain the same. Take away Nash and you have the Knicks).
hahahahaha

[Brownpants06]

Wow you suck at sports debates. You pretty much prove everything for me without me having to say it.

Kobe is playing with a bunch of scrubs that have almost no experience, yet you expect him to turn them into all stars?

Odom is an all-star. His past few games have been pretty solid. You can't blame Kobe's teamates for not touching the ball.


(Add points to the circular argument between team mates versus selfishness for the lakers)

[somethingyellow]

by that token, the celtics win ZERO games without pierce.i could be wrong, but weren't you the guy who kept making fun of pierce and wanted him traded earlier this year?

[wessa]

1) Dirk
2) Nash
3) Tony Parker
4) Kobe


i have been spurs fan since i visited san antonio when i was a little kid, but tony parker, no way in the world.
the other guys should be the top three and i do not really think anyone else should be considered. I strongly believe nash should get it, whoever said the suns would still win 35-40 games without nash has obviously not watched phoenix play one game in the last two years, plus nash was endorsed by a guy whose name pops up in the mvp race every year: Allen Iverson.
and as far as the argument for pierce and kobe that their teams aren't very good: how good are the suns? i mean without amare, there is shawn marion, and who else? diaw rode the pine for ATLANTA last year, the worst team in the league, and now he is averaging 13 points a game, and how good is raja bell? no better than odom, and his ppg are up now that he plays with nash, eddie house is coming off the bench averaging 10 points in only 17 minutes, if you switched kobe and nash and put kobe with the suns, we would be saying that the suns weren't very good around him and nash would have the lakers in the playoffs

[Scott Weber]

if you switched kobe and nash and put kobe with the suns, we would be saying that the suns weren't very good around him and nash would have the lakers in the playoffs
thank you, i wish I could have phrased it like that...

[wessa]

thank you, i wish I could have phrased it like that...

thanks, i like your quentin richardson point, that should pretty much some it up, i also totally orgot that the suns lost joe johson, so basically they lost their two best offensive players from last year (not including nash, and i think marion is a slight step below johson) yet they are still one of the 5 best teams in the league

for the sake of making an argument, what do people think about dirk? i think he has to be number two right now, i mean nobody expected the mavericks to be this good, they are contending for the best record in the league! he may be the best shooter in the league and he is 7 feet tall, i think people overlook him because a lot of his plays aren't pretty, but i think he is solid, 40% from three, 89% from the line, i like he deserves consideration

[still_life]

If the lakers don't make the playoffs, do you still think kobe should get mvp still life?

No, I said that in one of the first replies in this thread. As long as they remain a winning team and get in the playoffs, he gets it. He goes into a slump and they lose a bunch, he doesn't.

Good players on bad teams don't win MVP awards. Winners win the award. That's just the way it is, and there's no reason to change that now.

And when the Lakers have a winning record and a playoff spot, it'll be all because of Kobe, hence the MVP award.

Take away kobe and nash from their respective teams, which would fail more?

I would say the Suns. (Kobe would be replaced with some other hot shot shooter, where the lakers would remain the same. Take away Nash and you have the Knicks).

How come the Lakers get to add a shooter and Phoenix does nothing in this hypothetical situation? You can't have it like that. Give the Lakers a shooter and the Suns a capable point guard, and the Suns would still have a good record while the Lakers would probably be out of the playoffs. Lakers without Kobe are worse than the Knicks. You really think a team led by Odom and Kwame Brown would win games? There is too much talent on Phoenix already to say they'd fall that far.

[wessa]

There is too much talent on Phoenix already to say they'd fall that far.


Can you please explain to me this talent you are talking about, because i do not see how you can say that the suns have any more talent than the lakers

[itsjdiggity]

for the sake of making an argument, what do people think about dirk? i think he has to be number two right now, i mean nobody expected the mavericks to be this good, they are contending for the best record in the league! he may be the best shooter in the league and he is 7 feet tall, i think people overlook him because a lot of his plays aren't pretty, but i think he is solid, 40% from three, 89% from the line, i like he deserves consideration

i don't think Dirk is considered just for the fact that he is on the deepest team in the league

[Brownpants06]

No, I said that in one of the first replies in this thread. As long as they remain a winning team and get in the playoffs, he gets it. He goes into a slump and they lose a bunch, he doesn't.



And when the Lakers have a winning record and a playoff spot, it'll be all because of Kobe, hence the MVP award.



How come the Lakers get to add a shooter and Phoenix does nothing in this hypothetical situation? You can't have it like that. Give the Lakers a shooter and the Suns a capable point guard, and the Suns would still have a good record while the Lakers would probably be out of the playoffs. Lakers without Kobe are worse than the Knicks. You really think a team led by Odom and Kwame Brown would win games? There is too much talent on Phoenix already to say they'd fall that far.



Shawn Marion? Amare Stoudamere? Who made these players exceptional? Nash.

Odom? Who made him useless? Kobe.

[somethingyellow]

There is too much talent on Phoenix already to say they'd fall that far.There is still no way they win 35-40 games without nash and stoudemire. Part of the reason that makes Phoenix look like they have all this talent is because nash helps bring the best out of these players and play to their potential.That is the reason why nash is so valuable, because of how much he helps other players become better while leading his team to a 42-17 when a lot analysts thought they wouldn't even be in the playoffs.While nobody could have imagined they would be as good as they are now on top of their division.

[still_life]

Can you please explain to me this talent you are talking about, because i do not see how you can say that the suns have any more talent than the lakers

Marion, Diaw, Bell, Thomas are far better than what Kobe has to work with

[still_life]

There is still no way they win 35-40 games without nash and stoudemire. Part of the reason that makes Phoenix look like they have all this talent is because nash helps bring the best out of these players and play to their potential.That is the reason why nash is so valuable, because of how much he helps other players become better while leading his team to a 42-17 when a lot analysts thought they wouldn't even be in the playoffs.While nobody could have imagined they would be as good as they are now on top of their division.

Winning 35-40 games in the NBA isn't a big deal anyway. I count about 22 teams that should get to 35 wins by season's end. Phoenix could definitely be one of those teams even without Nash.

[somethingyellow]

Winning 35-40 games in the NBA isn't a big deal anyway. I count about 22 teams that should get to 35 wins by season's end. Phoenix could definitely be one of those teams even without Nash.Without nash and stoudemire, ya i would like to see that :rolleyes:

[Scott Weber]

Marion, Diaw, Bell, Thomas are far better than what Kobe has to work with
They weren't before Nash made them into better players than they were before...Nash could make Lamar Odom be a 24/10 guy if he were in Marion's place, and he'd make Smush and Mihm much better as well.

[Scott Weber]

Winning 35-40 games in the NBA isn't a big deal anyway. I count about 22 teams that should get to 35 wins by season's end. Phoenix could definitely be one of those teams even without Nash.
Wow, man....wow. Go back to the NFL. Without Nash and Amare this year, Phoenix doesn't win more than 25 games.

[wessa]

Marion, Diaw, Bell, Thomas are far better than what Kobe has to work with

marion and odom are a wash
diaw? did anyone here even know who boris diaw was last season when he was averaging 4 points coming off the atlanta hawks bench, but im sure we all knew chris mihm, a solid center who will give you 12 points a night, kurt thomas is nothing special, and raja bell is averaging more this year than he ever has, smush parker is averaging more assists and more steals than him and has two less points per game, yet bell plays five more minutes a game. just the fact that you said diaw proves that nash is the mvp, he turned a nobody into a solid bball player.

and whoever said dirk is on the deepest team on the league, i can't really agree with that, the spurs are deeper

[somethingyellow]

Marion, Diaw, Bell, Thomas are far better than what Kobe has to work withim pretty damn sure if you were to be asked before the start of the year if raja bell is better then everybody on the lakers besides kobe you would have said no way

[still_life]

20 teams won 35+ games last year (and two more won 34). It is not that impressive, and would get done with the players Phoenix has, and the coach.

[wessa]

this needs to end, we are going to go back and forth with this forever, if you think kobe is going to win, fine, but do not say things like how talented the suns are and how they would win 35 games without nash this year, i don't mind if you say kobe deserves the mvp but those other statements are just ridiculous

[weezer182]

20 teams won 35+ games last year (and two more won 34). It is not that impressive, and would get done with the players Phoenix has, and the coach.want to know what else isnt impressive. the lakers only being 2 games over 500. Dont talk about coaching either when phil is coaching the lakers

[still_life]

Marion was a fine player before Nash went to Phoenix. What's up in his stats since Nash came is the rebounds, but that makes sense since they changed their style and there are so many shots by both teams in a Suns game, more opportunities to get a board. He is not a wash with Odom.

Raja Bell's numbers look almost identical to last season, just more points, because again, Phoenix is a high scoring team, and he's taking more 3 pointers than ever.

[still_life]

want to know what else isnt impressive. the lakers only being 2 games over 500. Dont talk about coaching either when phil is coaching the lakers

It's a one man show, so it is impressive.

[wessa]

20 teams won 35+ games last year (and two more won 34). It is not that impressive, and would get done with the players Phoenix has, and the coach.

this is the last thing i am going to say, and it will show how incredibly dumb you are, you just implied that without nash, the suns would still have good enough players and "a good enough coach" to win. That prompted me to look up some info about Mike D'Antoni, the suns coach.

4 years of coaching experience

1999 - Denver Nuggets: 14-36, .280 win percentage, ouch, not too good
2004- took over the suns job, in 61 games he went 21-40, .344 win percentage, um a little improvement i guess
2005- THIS IS THE YEAR THAT THE SUNS GOT NASH, 62-20, .756 win percentage
2006 (so far)- 42-17, .712 win percentage, without their most dominating offensive player

i guess it could be coincedence that his rise in status from pathetic to great coach could have happened the year nash came, or the improved record could have came from the fact that STEVE NASH IS THE PHOENIX SUNS.

[somethingyellow]

It's a one man show, so it is impressive.since odom leads the team in rebounds and assists, im sure that is true too huh

[weezer182]

It's a one man show, so it is impressive. odom averages 14 points 9 rebounds and 5 assist a game. thats a pretty solid player playing beside kobe

[still_life]

this is the last thing i am going to say, and it will show how incredibly dumb you are, you just implied that without nash, the suns would still have good enough players and "a good enough coach" to win. That prompted me to look up some info about Mike D'Antoni, the suns coach.

4 years of coaching experience

1999 - Denver Nuggets: 14-36, .280 win percentage, ouch, not too good
2004- took over the suns job, in 61 games he went 21-40, .344 win percentage, um a little improvement i guess
2005- THIS IS THE YEAR THAT THE SUNS GOT NASH, 62-20, .756 win percentage
2006 (so far)- 42-17, .712 win percentage, without their most dominating offensive player

i guess it could be coincedence that his rise in status from pathetic to great coach could have happened the year nash came, or the improved record could have came from the fact that STEVE NASH IS THE PHOENIX SUNS.

He had to win coach of the year for a reason, and have the team up to par this year, and not just because of one player.

Are there any sites with deep statistical splits for the NBA? espn.com has terrible ones that give you nothing. I'd be curious to see what the Suns and Lakers do when Nash and Kobe are on the bench.

[Scott Weber]

im pretty damn sure if you were to be asked before the start of the year if raja bell is better then everybody on the lakers besides kobe you would have said no way
Haha, yeah.

[still_life]

How many times has Odom stepped up in the 4th quarter in a winning effort? I just saw something on espn where the Laker coaches want him to take more shots. He's not a great player, definitely not a Pippen, and not even a Marion.

[Scott Weber]

He had to win coach of the year for a reason, and have the team up to par this year, and not just because of one player.

Are there any sites with deep statistical splits for the NBA? espn.com has terrible ones that give you nothing. I'd be curious to see what the Suns and Lakers do when Nash and Kobe are on the bench.
Those stats don't mean anything, because they're full of garbage time when the bench is playing and your team is up by 20+ points with 6 minutes left.

[wessa]

He had to win coach of the year for a reason, and have the team up to par this year, and not just because of one player.

Are there any sites with deep statistical splits for the NBA? espn.com has terrible ones that give you nothing. I'd be curious to see what the Suns and Lakers do when Nash and Kobe are on the bench.

dude, are you able to read and comprehend information? i just showed you that before he had nash he did a horrible job in two different places, the year he gets nash he becomes coach of the year, how can you not acknoledge the correlation? the team is up to par this year because they have the mvp of the league leading the way

[weezer182]

How many times has Odom stepped up in the 4th quarter in a winning effort? I just saw something on espn where the Laker coaches want him to take more shots. He's not a great player, definitely not a Pippen, and not even a Marion.no one is comparing pippen and odom. you said the lakers are a one man team and that is wrong. odom is a solid nba player. If anything you could probably argue the success (if you want to call two games over 500 a success) the lakers are having has to do more with phil being the coach

[still_life]

Those stats don't mean anything, because they're full of garbage time when the bench is playing and your team is up by 20+ points with 6 minutes left.

Have you ever watched a NBA game? Nash usually takes a long break every game at the start of the 4th quarter, at least in all the games I've seen of them. He did it against Dallas on Sunday, a game they mostly trailed in. By what you just said there, I guess everyone plays 48 minutes except for games they're leading big in? Give me a break.

[wessa]

Have you ever watched a NBA game? Nash usually takes a long break every game at the start of the 4th quarter, at least in all the games I've seen of them. He did it against Dallas on Sunday, a game they mostly trailed in. By what you just said there, I guess everyone plays 48 minutes except for games they're leading big in? Give me a break.


kobe plays 4 more minutes a game, big deal

by searching for all these stats i found out that kobe is second in the league with 12 technical fouls, does anyone else find this funny?

[Scott Weber]

Have you ever watched a NBA game? Nash usually takes a long break every game at the start of the 4th quarter, at least in all the games I've seen of them. He did it against Dallas on Sunday, a game they mostly trailed in. By what you just said there, I guess everyone plays 48 minutes except for games they're leading big in? Give me a break.
Hahaha, I love it when you say stuff like that, it just makes me laugh because you're sitting here being made to look like a fool by everyone else. I guess I'll just ignore/redirect that comment like you do. Besides, I didn't say it was ALL garbage time, I said it's full of it, and it is - there's a good chunk of that data that's irrelevant. Don't put words in my mouth, you know I wasn't implying 48 minutes. Now, if you could search the data and eliminate the last 4/5 minutes of the game, then we're talking, since Nash and Kobe would be in the game if it were close at that point, barring fouling out or injury.

[still_life]

kobe plays 4 more minutes a game, big deal

by searching for all these stats i found out that kobe is second in the league with 12 technical fouls, does anyone else find this funny?

Something funnier, from the espn.com preview of the game tonight

"Phoenix needed a rally of major proportions to keep alive its streak Monday, outscoring the New Orleans Hornets, 30-9, in the fourth quarter to pull out a 101-88 victory. What made the closing run more impressive was that the Suns spent much of it without reigning league MVP Steve Nash, who was on the sidelines after spraining his right ankle.

Nash is listed as day-to-day. If he is unable to go Thursday, Phoenix may lean heavily on Boris Diaw, who followed up his second career triple-double by scoring 14 of his 20 points in the fourth quarter Monday."

So they beat a decent team with Nash on the bench, and Diaw had 14 points without Nash on the floor. Think the Lakers could ever pull one out like that with Kobe out?

[still_life]

Hahaha, I love it when you say stuff like that, it just makes me laugh because you're sitting here being made to look like a fool by everyone else. I guess I'll just ignore/redirect that comment like you do. Besides, I didn't say it was ALL garbage time, I said it's full of it, and it is - there's a good chunk of that data that's irrelevant. Don't put words in my mouth, you know I wasn't implying 48 minutes. Now, if you could search the data and eliminate the last 4/5 minutes of the game, then we're talking, since Nash and Kobe would be in the game if it were close at that point, barring fouling out or injury.

I guess you could look through the play by play and figure out the stats, though that'd take way too long. I think espn.com mentions when players go in and out in their PBP's.

[Scott Weber]

Something funnier, from the espn.com preview of the game tonight

"Phoenix needed a rally of major proportions to keep alive its streak Monday, outscoring the New Orleans Hornets, 30-9, in the fourth quarter to pull out a 101-88 victory. What made the closing run more impressive was that the Suns spent much of it without reigning league MVP Steve Nash, who was on the sidelines after spraining his right ankle.

Nash is listed as day-to-day. If he is unable to go Thursday, Phoenix may lean heavily on Boris Diaw, who followed up his second career triple-double by scoring 14 of his 20 points in the fourth quarter Monday."

So they beat a decent team with Nash on the bench, and Diaw had 14 points without Nash on the floor. Think the Lakers could ever pull one out like that with Kobe out?
I'm sure the Lakers could have a good game and win some games without Kobe, don't act like other people can't get hot. And one game, more specifically, part of a quarter, is not significant ground to base an argument off of. You know that.

[wessa]

Something funnier, from the espn.com preview of the game tonight

"Phoenix needed a rally of major proportions to keep alive its streak Monday, outscoring the New Orleans Hornets, 30-9, in the fourth quarter to pull out a 101-88 victory. What made the closing run more impressive was that the Suns spent much of it without reigning league MVP Steve Nash, who was on the sidelines after spraining his right ankle.

Nash is listed as day-to-day. If he is unable to go Thursday, Phoenix may lean heavily on Boris Diaw, who followed up his second career triple-double by scoring 14 of his 20 points in the fourth quarter Monday."

So they beat a decent team with Nash on the bench, and Diaw had 14 points without Nash on the floor. Think the Lakers could ever pull one out like that with Kobe out?


so you are basing your argument on one freakin quarter? wow, you need to take a debate class or something...

Edit: sorry scott, didn't mean to rip you off, i guess great minds do think alike

[still_life]

I'm sure the Lakers could have a good game and win some games without Kobe, don't act like other people can't get hot. And one game, more specifically, part of a quarter, is not significant ground to base an argument off of. You know that.

ESPN's being a bitch right now. Seems like every game has a "404 - FILE NOT FOUND" link that I want to look at, but can't.

But Kobe's missed two whole games this year, and they lost both of them to Utah.

[ActorInThisPlay]

Nash deserves it more then Kobe...plain and simple. The Lakers are barely in the playoffs whereas the Suns have the 3rd best record in the West.

[still_life]

so you are basing your argument on one freakin quarter? wow, you need to take a debate class or something...

Edit: sorry scott, didn't mean to rip you off, i guess great minds do think alike

No, you're just assuming too much.

[Scott Weber]

No, you're just assuming too much.
He's assuming too much? You just based an argument against Nash's importance to his team based on part of one quarter. Talk about assuming too much... and by the way, when Nash missed 5 games in a row last year, the Suns lost every single one of them.

[wessa]

He's assuming too much? You just based an argument against Nash's importance to his team based on part of one quarter. Talk about assuming too much... and by the way, when Nash missed 5 games in a row last year, the Suns lost every single one of them.

BOOYAH!

[Brownpants06]

Something funnier, from the espn.com preview of the game tonight

"Phoenix needed a rally of major proportions to keep alive its streak Monday, outscoring the New Orleans Hornets, 30-9, in the fourth quarter to pull out a 101-88 victory. What made the closing run more impressive was that the Suns spent much of it without reigning league MVP Steve Nash, who was on the sidelines after spraining his right ankle.

Nash is listed as day-to-day. If he is unable to go Thursday, Phoenix may lean heavily on Boris Diaw, who followed up his second career triple-double by scoring 14 of his 20 points in the fourth quarter Monday."

So they beat a decent team with Nash on the bench, and Diaw had 14 points without Nash on the floor. Think the Lakers could ever pull one out like that with Kobe out?

Your basing this on one quarter, especially against the hornets.

You think they could do that against the spurs?

[Chriz2z]

Billups, no not really, just a hometown pick. Nash, then Bryant, then Odom. For Bryant and Odom to have a shot they need to make the playoffs.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Billups, no not really, just a hometown pick. Nash, then Bryant, then Odom. For Bryant and Odom to have a shot they need to make the playoffs.
In order to be most valuable player of the league, one must first be the most valuable player for one's team.

[still_life]

Your basing this on one quarter, especially against the hornets.

You think they could do that against the spurs?

I'm not basing anything on one quarter.

The Spurs are arguably the best team in the league, if Nash doesn't play tonight, using that game carries little weight to me. But I would like to see him miss the game anyway just to see what kind of numbers they put up on offense.

[somethingyellow]

I'm not basing anything on one quarter.

The Spurs are arguably the best team in the league, if Nash doesn't play tonight, using that game carries little weight to me. But I would like to see him miss the game anyway just to see what kind of numbers they put up on offense.Are you glad now? They had no chance in this game at home. Like I said in the NBA thread, I believe if Nash is playing they have a very good chance and would expect them to win this game at home with the win streak they were on before

[wessa]

Are you glad now? They had no chance in this game at home. Like I said in the NBA thread, I believe if Nash is playing they have a very good chance and would expect them to win this game at home with the win streak they were on before

I am glad we revisited this after the game, the suns got BLOWN OUT because this year's mvp was missing, without him this year, they are one of the three worst teams in the west. period.

[Scott Weber]

How convinient that still_life managed to give himself an out before this loss even happened...

[Broken Parachute]

I'd say either Kobe or Nash.

[bigmike]

I'd say either Kobe or Nash.
ditto.

[still_life]

Did you even watch that game? They gave up almost 40 points in the first quarter, that game was lost on defense, something Nash doesn't play well anyway.

[Scott Weber]

Did you even watch that game? They gave up almost 40 points in the first quarter, that game was lost on defense, something Nash doesn't play well anyway.
No, I didn't watch the game. I was watching the Pac-10 tournament.

[Doug]

the love for steve nash is just as improbably high as the hatred for the patriots and both piss me off.

[still_life]

No, I didn't watch the game. I was watching the Pac-10 tournament.

Well Tony Parker had his way with that "defense", as did the rest of the Spurs. That's the main reason they lost the game. The offense still looked pretty good considering the quality of the opposition's defense.

[Scott Weber]

Well Tony Parker had his way with that "defense", as did the rest of the Spurs. That's the main reason they lost the game. The offense still looked pretty good considering the quality of the opposition's defense.
it really doesn't matter what would have happened, you'd have found some explanation for why the game didn't mean anything. you already said you'd do that before the game even started, so why bother? I'm trying to think of a time in which you've ever admitted you were off, or wrong, and I can't think of it...even though you have been several times, there's always an explanation, a bail-out.

[somethingyellow]

Did you even watch that game? They gave up almost 40 points in the first quarter, that game was lost on defense, something Nash doesn't play well anyway.I will listen to somebody who actually knows and played the game of basketball in Steve Kerr rather then you. This was part of his Column after last nights game.
PHOENIX – After watching the San Antonio Spurs (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/sas/) dismantle the Phoenix Suns (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/pho/) 117-93 on Thursday night, two things were clear to me: One, Steve Nash (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3103/) is this season's Most Valuable Player, and two, Tony Parker (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3527/) may win the award in the future. Nash's absence (due to a sprained ankle) changed the entire complexion of Phoenix's team, and it served as a reminder that Nash indeed makes every one on his team infinitely better. Without him, the Suns couldn't sustain the relentless pressure they normally put on their opponents because each player had to take on more responsibility.
Shawn Marion (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3332/) didn't shake free for easy hoops around the basket. Eddie House (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3436/) found his jump shots harder to come by. Boris Diaw (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3724/) became the sole playmaker and suddenly saw more attention from the defense. Phoenix went from a free-wheeling offensive juggernaut to a rudderless ship trying to steer itself to safety.........
So while Nash is the frontrunner to win the MVP award this season for his work in leading the Suns, his counterpart in San Antonio has the look of a future Most Valuable Player. And in all likelihood, if Phoenix plays the Spurs in the playoffs, the performances of each point guard will be the key to which team wins the series.

[still_life]

Spurs were almost shooting 80% in the first quarter I think. Don't make stupid comments if you didn't even see the game, the defense was awful. There were still some very nice passes by Phoenix without Nash, but the shots weren't going down.

I doubt the Suns win last night with Nash, Spurs were killing them on defense. Looked worse than that playoff series last year (where I believe Stoudamire was the Suns MVP for the series, not Nash).

[Scott Weber]

sigh. I'm with you somethingyellow...i'd also trust Steve Kerr because he is very, VERY familiar with the Spurs organization and their players. And P.S., all he did was quote Kerr, who obviously DID see the game. So still_life, you can say whatever you want, as long as you realize that you're probably not right.

[still_life]

Giving up 117 points and having the other team shoot 71% in the first quarter and 55% for the game is more of a reason to lose a game than the offense. Again, without Nash, Diaw almost had a triple double (16, 9, and 9) and Marion and Bell had their normal numbers against one of the best defenses. But their "defense" lost the game.

[somethingyellow]

Giving up 117 points and having the other team shoot 71% in the first quarter and 55% for the game is more of a reason to lose a game than the offense. Again, without Nash, Diaw almost had a triple double (16, 9, and 9) and Marion and Bell had their normal numbers against one of the best defenses. But their "defense" lost the game.Re-read what Steve Kerr said about their offense and how different it was without Nash. I know you don't watch many Suns games to tell the difference so im still sticking to Kerr's opinion

[ActorInThisPlay]

sigh. I'm with you somethingyellow...i'd also trust Steve Kerr because he is very, VERY familiar with the Spurs organization and their players. And P.S., all he did was quote Kerr, who obviously DID see the game. So still_life, you can say whatever you want, as long as you realize that you're probably not right.
yeah i am going to have to agree with Scott on this one

[Scott Weber]

Re-read what Steve Kerr said about their offense and how different it was without Nash. I know you don't watch many Suns games to tell the difference so im still sticking to Kerr's opinion
exactly, Kerr wasn't talking about them getting outscored, it was about their offense being out of sync.

[still_life]

Re-read what Steve Kerr said about their offense and how different it was without Nash. I know you don't watch many Suns games to tell the difference so im still sticking to Kerr's opinion

Do you even realize there are two parts to a game, offense and defense? The offense would had to of been amazing to overcome the Spurs last night, and Nash wouldn't have made the difference. Spurs starters didn't even have to play much of the 4th.

[Scott Weber]

Do you even realize there are two parts to a game, offense and defense? The offense would had to of been amazing to overcome the Spurs last night, and Nash wouldn't have made the difference. Spurs starters didn't even have to play much of the 4th.
My god. You seriously cannot read. Steve's observations were not about the win/loss aspect of the game - he gave specific reasons as to how the offense was out of sync, which players were effected by it, how they looked lost without him....not that they lost the game, just that the offense looked awful. Regardless of final score. Jesus christ, dude.

[somethingyellow]

My god. You seriously cannot read. Steve's observations were not about the win/loss aspect of the game - he gave specific reasons as to how the offense was out of sync, which players were effected by it, how they looked lost without him....not that they lost the game, just that the offense looked awful. Regardless of final score. Jesus christ, dude.thank you scott. The argument was strictly about how their offense is completely different without Nash. Learn how to read before you get into an argument still life. And if you really want to get into defense, the suns win by their offense. They dont hold teams down and expect their Defense to win them games. They beat teams with their league leading offense which Nash is the head of. This further makes me believe you never watch the Suns play

[still_life]

thank you scott. The argument was strictly about how their offense is completely different without Nash. Learn how to read before you get into an argument still life. And if you really want to get into defense, the suns win by their offense. They dont hold teams down and expect their Defense to win them games. They beat teams with their league leading offense which Nash is the head of. This further makes me believe you never watch the Suns play

No one ever debated the offense being different without Nash, dumbasses. But using a loss against the defending champion, 48 win Spurs doesn't say much at all, especially when the defense was piss poor compared to what they usually do. Do you really think they score 120 with Nash to win that game?

And they scored 91 in the other two meetings with Nash, so 93 without him was an improvement against the Spurs D.

[somethingyellow]

No one ever debated the offense being different without Nash, dumbasses. But using a loss against the defending champion, 48 win Spurs doesn't say much at all, especially when the defense was piss poor compared to what they usually do. Do you really think they score 120 with Nash to win that game?

And they scored 91 in the other two meetings with Nash, so 93 without him was an improvement against the Spurs D.You said their offense still looked good, which is why i brought that up. There wouldnt be any reason to think the Suns couldnt have considering they have already beaten the spurs at home already once this year and were the hottest team in the league before last night winning 11 straight games with nash. The point of this debate was the Suns are clearly nowhere close to as good as they are with Nash, which is why he should win mvp. Bringing up the offense is the way to show how valuable he is which Kerr clearly states.

[still_life]

You said their offense still looked good, which is why i brought that up. There wouldnt be any reason to think the Suns couldnt have considering they have already beaten the spurs at home already once this year and were the hottest team in the league before last night winning 11 straight games with nash. The point of this debate was the Suns are clearly nowhere close to as good as they are with Nash, which is why he should win mvp. Bringing up the offense is the way to show how valuable he is which Kerr clearly states.

Well like I said (and you ignored), they scored more points last night than in the other two games against the Spurs this year. The difference is the points allowed were much higher.

Nash is his team's MVP, no doubt. League MVP, not so clear.

[Scott Weber]

Well like I said (and you ignored), they scored more points last night than in the other two games against the Spurs this year. The difference is the points allowed were much higher.

Nash is his team's MVP, no doubt. League MVP, not so clear.
Don't even begin to talk about ignoring points - you're the master of redirecting points and ignoring when you get proven wrong.

[still_life]

You'd actually have to make a point for me to ignore it first.

So how 'bout those Lakers beating the Spurs tonight?

[somethingyellow]

You'd actually have to make a point for me to ignore it first.

So how 'bout those Lakers beating the Spurs tonight?ya it looks like lamar odom had a great game

[still_life]

Teammate of league MVP Kobe Bryant? Yeah he did

[somethingyellow]

Teammate of league MVP Kobe Bryant? Yeah he didor the guy you said wasnt good and that raja bell was better then. He came close to a triple double tonight

[still_life]

I never said that. I said Nash had a lot more to work with, including Bell.

Though, Boris Diaw definitely looks better than Odom right now.

[somethingyellow]

I never said that. I said Nash had a lot more to work with, including Bell.

Though, Boris Diaw definitely looks better than Odom right now.
hahahahaha thats funny because i believe you said

Marion, Diaw, Bell, Thomas are far better than what Kobe has to work with

[still_life]

Right, and how you're pulling "Bell > Odom" out of that is beyond me.

[somethingyellow]

Right, and how you're pulling "Bell > Odom" out of that is beyond me.im not odom is quite a bit better then bell, you just claimed that he wasnt and that kobe has nobody on his team which isnt true because odom looked like he had a lot to do with this win tonight. This wont go anywhere. You think kobe should deserve it and i think nash should and i dont see any of use changing our minds at this point

[still_life]

I never claimed that, you're pulling straws here.

Nash has more on his team than Kobe, simple as that. It doesn't mean every single Suns player is better than the 2nd best Laker.

Though on top of Diaw > Odom, I'd take Bell over Smush Parker too.

[itsjdiggity]

Smush Parker is whack

[Scott Weber]

I never claimed that, you're pulling straws here.

Nash has more on his team than Kobe, simple as that. It doesn't mean every single Suns player is better than the 2nd best Laker.

Though on top of Diaw > Odom, I'd take Bell over Smush Parker too.
Haha, I love watching you debate because you're so far up your own ass you never see it - you pull more straws then anyone, you're always retracting and readjusting your statement to whatever argument best suits you at the moment. hilarious.

[bigmike]

this thread is good times.

but someone needs to bump the joey harrington thread. by far the best thread in the sports forum.