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BrandNewRock05
03/28/03, 06:38 PM
The Hollywood group is at it again. Holding anti-war rallies, screaming about the Bush Administration, running ads in major newspapers, defaming the President and his Cabinet every chance they get, to anyone and everyone who will listen. They publicly defile them and call them names like "stupid" , "morons", and "idiots". Jessica Lange went so far as to tell a crowd in Spain that she hates President Bush and is embarrassed to be an American.

So, just how ignorant are these people who are running the country? Let's look at the biographies of these "stupid", "ignorant" , "moronic" leaders, and then at the celebrities who are castigating them:

President George W. Bush: Received a Bachelors Degree from Yale University and an MBA from Harvard Business School. He served as an F-102 pilot for the Texas Air National Guard. He began his career in the oil and gas business in Midland in 1975 and worked in the energy industry until 1986. He was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote. In a historic re-election victory, he became the first Texas Governor to be elected to consecutive four-year terms on November 3, 1998 winning 68.6 percent of the vote. In 1998 Governor Bush won 49 percent of the Hispanic vote, 27 percent of the African-American vote, 27 percent of Democrats and 65 percent of women. He won more Texas counties, 240 of 254, than any modern Republican other that Richard Nixon in 1972 and is the first Republican gubernatorial candidate to win the heavily Hispanic and Democratic border counties of El Paso, Cameron and Hidalgo. (Someone began circulating a false story about his I.Q. being lower than any other President. If you believed it, you might want to go to URBANLEGENDS.COM and see the truth.)

Vice President Dick Cheney earned a B.A. in 1965 and a M.A. in 1966, both in political science. Two years later, he won an American Political Science Association congressional fellowship. One of Vice President Cheney's primary duties is to share with individuals, members of Congress and foreign leaders, President Bush's vision to strengthen our economy, secure our homeland and win the War on Terrorism. In his official role as President of the Senate, Vice President Cheney regularly goes to Capital Hill to meet with Senators and members of the House of Representatives to work on the Administration's legislative goals. In his travels as Vice President, he has seen first hand the great demands the war on terrorism is placing on the men and women of our military, and he is proud of the tremendous job they are doing for the United States of America.

Secretary of State Colin Powell was educated in the New York City public schools, graduating from the City College of New York (CCNY), where he earned a Bachelor's Degree in geology. He also participated in ROTC at CCNY and received a commission as an Army second lieutenant upon graduation in June 1958. His further academic achievements include a Master of Business Administration Degree from George Washington University. Secretary Powell is the recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards and decorations. Secretary Powell's civilian awards include two Presidential Medals of Freedom, the President's Citizens Medal, the Congressional Gold Medal, the Secretary of State Distinguished Service Medal, and the Secretary of Energy Distinguished Service Medal. Several schools and other institutions have been named in his honor and he holds honorary degrees from universities and colleges across the country.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld: attended Princeton University on Scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator ; Congressional Assistant to Rep. Robert Griffin (R-MI), 1957-59; U.S. Representative, Illinois, 1962-69; Assistant to the President, Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, Director of the Cost of Living Council, 1969-74; U.S. Ambassador to NATO, 1973-74; head of Presidential Transition Team, 1974; Assistant to the President, Director of White House Office of Operations, White House Chief of Staff, 1974-77; Secretary of Defense, 1975-77

Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge was raised in a working class family in veterans' public housing in Erie. He earned a scholarship to Harvard, graduating with honors in 1967. After his first year at The Dickinson School of Law, he was drafted into the U.S. Army, where he served as an infantry staff sergeant in Vietnam, earning the Bronze Star for Valor. After returning to Pennsylvania, he earned his Law Degree and was in private practice before becoming Assistant District Attorney in Erie County. He was elected to Congress in 1982. He was the first enlisted Vietnam combat veteran elected to the U.S. House, and was overwhelmingly re-elected six times.

National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice earned her Bachelor's Degree in Political Science, Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her Master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981.
(Note: Rice enrolled at the University of Denver at the age of 15, graduating at 19 with a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science (Cum Laude). She earned a Master's Degree at the University of Notre Dame and a Doctorate from the University of Denver's Graduate School of International Studies. Both of her advanced degrees are also in Political Science.)
She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded Honorary Doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, and the University of Notre Dame in 1995. At Stanford, she has been a member of the Center for International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander Dallin, and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984). She also has written numerous articles on Soviet and East European foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging from the U.S. Ambassador's Residence in Moscow to the Commonwealth Club to the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions. From 1989 through March 1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In 1997, she served on the Federal Advisory Committee on Gender -- Integrated Training in the Military. She was a member of the boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San Francisco Symphony Board of Governors. She was a Founding Board member of the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula. In addition, her past board service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED, public broadcasting for San Francisco. Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, she earned her bachelor's degree in political science, cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her Master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981. She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded Honorary Doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, and the University of Notre Dame in 1995. She resides in Washington, D.C.

So who are these celebrities? What is their education? What is their experience in affairs of State or in National Security? While I will defend to the death their right to express their opinions, I think that if they are going to call into question the intelligence of our leaders, we should also have all the facts on their educations and background:

Barbra Streisand : Completed high school
Career: Singing and acting

Cher : Dropped out of school in 9th grade.
Career: Singing and acting

Martin Sheen Flunked exam to enter University of Dayton.
Career: Acting

Jessica Lange Dropped out college mid-freshman year.
Career: Acting


Alec Baldwin Dropped out of George Washington U. after scandal
Career: Acting

Julia Roberts Completed high school
Career: Acting

Sean Penn Completed High school
Career: Acting

Susan Sarandon Degree in Drama from Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.
Career: Acting

Ed Asner Completed High school
Career: Acting

George Clooney Dropped out of University of Kentucky
Career: Acting

Michael Moore Dropped out first year University of Michigan.
Career: Movie Director

Sarah Jessica Parker: Completed High School
Career: Acting

Jennifer Anniston : Completed High School
Career: Acting

Mike Farrell Completed High school
Career: Acting

Janeane Garofelo Dropped out of College.
Career: Stand up comedienne

Larry Hagman Attended Bard College for one year.
Career: Acting

While comparing the education and experience of these two groups, we should also remember that President Bush and his cabinet are briefed daily, even hourly, on the War on Terror and threats to our security. They are privy to information gathered around the world concerning the Middle East, the threats to America, the intentions of terrorists and terrorist-supporting governments. They are in constant communication with the CIA, the FBI, Interpol, NATO, The United Nations, our own military, and that of our allies around the world. We cannot simply believe that we have full knowledge of the threats because we watch CNN!! We cannot believe that we are in any way as informed as our leaders.

These celebrities have no intelligence-gathering agents, no fact-finding groups, no insight into the minds of those who would destroy our country. They only have a deep seated hatred for all things Republican. By nature, and no one knows quite why, the Hollywood elitists detest Conservative views and anything that supports or uplifts the United States of America. The silence was deafening from the Left when Bill Clinton bombed a pharmaceutical factory outside of Khartoum, or when he attacked the Bosnian Serbs in 1995 and 1999. He bombed Serbia itself to get Slobodan Milosevic out of Kosovo, and not a single peace rally was held. When our Rangers were ambushed in Somalia and 18 young American lives were lost, not a peep was heard from Hollywood. Yet now, after our nation has been attacked on its own soil, after 3,000 Americans were killed by freedom-hating terrorists while going about their routine lives, they want to hold rallies against the war. Why the change? Because an honest, God-fearing Republican sits in the White House.

Another irony is that in 1987, when Ronald Reagan was in office, the Hollywood group aligned themselves with disarmament groups like SANE, FREEZE and PEACE ACTION, urging our own government to disarm and freeze the manufacturing of any further nuclear weapons, in order to promote world peace. It is curious that now, even after we have heard all the evidence that Saddam Hussein has chemical, biological and is very close to obtaining nuclear weapons, their is no cry from this group for HIM to disarm. They believe we should leave him alone in his quest for these weapons of mass destruction, even though it is certain that these deadly weapons will eventually be used against us in our own cities.

So why the hype out of Hollywood? Could these celebrities believe that since they draw such astronomical salaries, they are entitled to also determine the course of our Nation? That they can make viable decisions concerning war and peace? Did Michael Moore have the backing of the Nation when he recently thanked France, on our behalf, for being a "good enough friend to tell us we were wrong"? I know for certain he was not speaking for me. Does Sean Penn fancy himself a Diplomat, in going to Iraq when we are just weeks away from war? Does he believe that his High School Diploma gives him the knowledge (and the right) to go to a country that is controlled by a maniacal dictator, and speak on behalf of the American people? Or is it the fact that he pulls in more money per year than the average American worker will see in a lifetime? Does his bank account give him clout?

The ultimate irony is that many of these celebrities have made a shambles of their own lives, with drug abuse, alcoholism, numerous marriages and divorces, scrapes with the law, publicized temper tantrums, etc. How dare they pretend to know what is best for an entire nation! What is even more bizarre is how many people in this country will listen and accept their views, simply because they liked them in a certain movie, or have fond memories of an old television sitcom!

It is time for us, as citizens of the United States, to educate ourselves about the world around us. If future generations are going to enjoy the freedoms that our forefathers bequeathed us, if they are ever to know peace in their own country and their world, to live without fear of terrorism striking in their own cities, we must assure that this nation remains strong. We must make certain that those who would destroy us are made aware of the severe consequences that will befall them.

Yes, it is a wonderful dream to sit down with dictators and terrorists and join hands, singing Cumbaya and talking of world peace. But it is not real. We did not stop Adolf Hitler from taking over the entire continent of Europe by simply talking to him. We sent our best and brightest, with the strength and determination that this Country is known for, and defeated the Nazi regime. President John F. Kennedy did not stop the Soviet ships from unloading their nuclear missiles in Cuba in 1962 with mere words. He stopped them with action, and threat of immediate war if the ships did not turn around. We did not end the Cold War with conferences. It ended with the strong belief of President Ronald Reagan... PEACE through STRENGTH.

yeat182
03/28/03, 06:41 PM
what is that from?

BrandNewRock05
03/28/03, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by cal1082
this is the best thing you've posted. if it's all correct
go ahead and check it, 100% correct

Justin_stacy
03/28/03, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
go ahead and check it, 100% correct

The difference here is that know one takes seriously the hollywood liberals, but hopefully people do take our leaders seriously, But by you posting to things that have nothing to do with each other to gether it blurs the line of difference between them to those that are not informed enough to know for them selves.

BrandNewRock05
03/28/03, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
The difference here is that know one takes seriously the hollywood liberals, but hopefully people do take our leaders seriously, But by you posting to things that have nothing to do with each other to gether it blurs the line of difference between them to those that are not informed enough to know for them selves.
Who else opposes the war besides these hollywood stars, honestly? The uninformed, uneducated. My point is that Bush and his cabinet are highly qualified to make this descision, especially Rice, my god. Can you say genius? Wait, she is a scholary person...but she's a conservative that cant be? Hmmm check that logic again neph

bossydacow
03/28/03, 06:58 PM
My mom is a lawyer, did the whole law school bit, and she is against the war. so are all her lawyer friends. they are not uneducated. stop making generalizations. there are always exceptions. Just like that stupid KKK guy on Howard Stern who completely supports Bush.

Justin_stacy
03/28/03, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
Who else opposes the war besides these hollywood stars,

20% of america is against hte war

BrandNewRock05
03/28/03, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by bossydacow
My mom is a lawyer, did the whole law school bit, and she is against the war. so are all her lawyer friends. they are not uneducated. stop making generalizations. there are always exceptions. Just like that stupid KKK guy on Howard Stern who completely supports Bush.
Im not saing there arent exceptions, because there are. Not all Conservaties are pro-life. However, most are. So it is safe to make the generalization that conservatives are pro-life. Just as it is safe to say that liberals are spewing shit out of their ass. Go Martin Sheen. Just because you play a president on TV doesnt actually make you a president.

yeat182
03/28/03, 07:02 PM
where did you find this article?

BrandNewRock05
03/28/03, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
20% of america is against hte war
Is it fair to say that 20% of America is not college educated? I think so

bossydacow
03/28/03, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
Just as it is safe to say that liberals are spewing shit out of their ass.

You sound so stupid. honestly, the world wouldn't exist without conservatives and liberals coexisting together. Without the other, the world would go off the deep end. Stop being such a jerk. And for the record, shit comes out of everyones ass - except in your case, when its your mouth.

Justin_stacy
03/28/03, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
Is it fair to say that 20% of America is not college educated? I think so



I hope your joking right.............please say so.

BrandNewRock05
03/28/03, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by bossydacow
And for the record, shit comes out of everyones ass - except in your case, when its your mouth. Good one, again read the article and tell me that those hollywood cranks are qualified to chastize the president....or anyone else for that matter

BrandNewRock05
03/28/03, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
I hope your joking right.............please say so.
half heartedly, yeah. but again, 20% against is not a large number of people. how many of them do you actually think are half as qualified as anyone on the list of people making the descisions

Stompemplay
03/29/03, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
Who else opposes the war besides these hollywood stars, honestly? The uninformed, uneducated. My point is that Bush and his cabinet are highly qualified to make this descision, especially Rice, my god. Can you say genius? Wait, she is a scholary person...but she's a conservative that cant be? Hmmm check that logic again neph

awww.......I guess Im uninformed and uneducated:( .

Good point, but ill just say two things:

Politicians HAVE to go through all that school. Actors dont.

and Hitler was a genius.........what does that prove?

kidinthecorner
03/29/03, 05:07 AM
Hitler was a dumbass. He royally fucked himself quite a few times. Operation Barbarossa, anyone?

yeat182
03/29/03, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by Stompemplay
awww.......I guess Im uninformed and uneducated:( .

Good point, but ill just say two things:

Politicians HAVE to go through all that school. Actors dont.

and Hitler was a genius.........what does that prove?


politicians HAVE to go through all that school, which gives them their qualifications. actors have no qualifications when it comes to speaking about politics, they are of course entitled to their opinion, but they are far less qualified than the politicians. its like saying you'd take a politicians opinion on what they think about hollywood, rather than someone who actually works in that field and is better qualified to speak to it.


Hitler wasn't a genius, he couldn't even get into college...

nofxer
03/29/03, 05:12 AM
just because a handful of movie stars who oppose the war might be uninformed dumbasses, doesnt mean we all are

Stompemplay
03/29/03, 05:13 AM
Hitler was a genius, a bastard genius, but a genius.

Atomic Punk
03/29/03, 05:17 AM
wow that's really cool brandnew. where'd u get all that info? that's awesome. im sick of all these dumb ass hollywood people acting as if what they think about politics actualyl matters. because it doesn't to most educated people.

yeat182
03/29/03, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by Stompemplay
Hitler was a genius, a bastard genius, but a genius.

no, he wasn't

Stompemplay
03/29/03, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by yeat182
no, he wasn't

If i wasnt so goddamn lazy id go and find the facts on it.......

But he turned Germany from a shithole to a country that took over like half of europe in very little time, and killed millions of people, almost wiping out an entire race of people.

That shits not easy.

yeat182
03/29/03, 05:28 AM
he also made some of the biggest military blunders of all time...

nofxer
03/29/03, 05:33 AM
i dont think hitler was a genuis at all...he was just in the right place at the right time...germany had nothing to lose, and to them it seemed like hitler had his shit together...but like yeat said, he showed his"genuis" with his various military shortcomings

yeat182
03/29/03, 05:34 AM
he not only dropped out of high school, but he also failed 2 times to get admitted to the academy of arts

Atomic Punk
03/29/03, 06:39 AM
Hitler wasn't a genius. he was horrible at planning out military strategies. the only thing he was good at was being crazy and having great speaking skills. he was also very manipulative.

kidinthecorner
03/29/03, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Atomic Punk
Hitler wasn't a genius. he was horrible at planning out military strategies. the only thing he was good at was being crazy and having great speaking skills. he was also very manipulative.

Ya, he was one of the best speakers ever. He could move a crowd instantly, but he really was a moron.

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Atomic Punk
wow that's really cool brandnew. where'd u get all that info? that's awesome. im sick of all these dumb ass hollywood people acting as if what they think about politics actualyl matters. because it doesn't to most educated people.
i just want to show everyone the qualifications of those who claim to know what they are talking about isnt half as much as those who are. Did you check out Rice's resume? Outstanding. That is why she is in the spot she is, and making the descisions she does. And Hitler was a dumbass. He had appeal. So did Nsync, but are they geniuses?

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Atomic Punk
Hitler wasn't a genius. he was horrible at planning out military strategies. the only thing he was good at was being crazy and having great speaking skills. he was also very manipulative.

Some of what he did was actually some of the best military planning the worlds has ever seen. He took over poland and France in a matter of weeks. He was able to trick Russia into not fearing him, and he almost brought britian to its kness with out getting one solider on there soil.

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by yeat182
he not only dropped out of high school, but he also failed 2 times to get admitted to the academy of arts

education in school has nothing to do with intelligence. Calling some one like Hitler stupid, will only allow some one like him to rise again.

WithStamin
03/29/03, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
education in school has nothing to do with intelligence. Sure it does. You don't see intelligent people dropping out of high school. That's because they know that they need education to seceed in life (or at least most people do). Intelligent people generally have more education, unlike this stupid uber-liberal anti-war crowd.

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by WithStamin
Sure it does. You don't see intelligent people dropping out of high school. That's because they know that they need education to seceed in life (or at least most people do). Intelligent people generally have more education, unlike this stupid uber-liberal anti-war crowd.

Booksmarts is one thing, street smarts are another, which will get you further in life?

therealhebm
03/29/03, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Booksmarts is one thing, street smarts are another, which will get you further in life?

a mix of both

The Nephilm
03/29/03, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by WithStamin
Sure it does. You don't see intelligent people dropping out of high school. That's because they know that they need education to seceed in life (or at least most people do). Intelligent people generally have more education, unlike this stupid uber-liberal anti-war crowd.

School teaches you how to memorize facts... it doesn't make you any smarter.

And I've already explained numerous times that the more educated lean to the left of the political spectrum.

i quit my scene
03/29/03, 01:59 PM
that's bull shit neph and you know it.

WithStamin
03/29/03, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by The Nephilm

And I've already explained numerous times that the more educated lean to the left of the political spectrum. I seem to have missed that... what is your source?

The Nephilm
03/29/03, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by i quit my scene
that's bull shit neph and you know it.

which part?

I swear to god that I have learned things in school, but I could have just as easily learned more important things in life by going out on my own and doing everyday things. The educational system in this country is a fucking joke, and above anything else I have learned how to memorize and spit out useless facts in school, and not much else.

The Nephilm
03/29/03, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by WithStamin
I seem to have missed that... what is your source?

just look at any college campus... aside from a few almost every campus is overwhelmingly liberal, in both professors and students.

WithStamin
03/29/03, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by The Nephilm
just look at any college campus... aside from a few almost every campus is overwhelmingly liberal, in both professors and students. How about this... look at any sucsessful business and you will see conservatives. This takes true brain power. I don't know how being a student automatically makes you intelligent, and professors are just an exception

i quit my scene
03/29/03, 03:55 PM
If you think about every college campus is liberal, then explain why a democrat doesn't win the presidency every 4 years. If most colleges are indeed liberal, then surely alumni would vote for the democrats. I have yet to see a Republican liberal.

WithStamin
03/29/03, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by i quit my scene
If you think about every college campus is liberal, then explain why a democrat doesn't win the presidency every 4 years. If most colleges are indeed liberal, then surely alumni would vote for the democrats. I have yet to see a Republican liberal. After college, many people wake up and see what the real world it like. Then they become Republicans.

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by The Nephilm
just look at any college campus... aside from a few almost every campus is overwhelmingly liberal, in both professors and students.

That is because it is a false world. A university town is not real.

Professors are liberal because they don't live in the "Real world," they don't have to deal with the same things a normal family have to. And students are liberal becaue they are impressionable, and thank that just because a person has read a book means that hes smart, which isn't always true.

Heres one for you, why do most college liberals turn conservative once they hit the real world and start a family?


Also dont think that ever school is over run with liberals just because there the only ones you see on the news, most conservatives have more self respect then to dance around and look like idiots.

The Nephilm
03/29/03, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
That is because it is a false world. A university town is not real.

Professors are liberal because they don't live in the "Real world," they don't have to deal with the same things a normal family have to. And students are liberal becaue they are impressionable, and thank that just because a person has read a book means that hes smart, which isn't always true.

Heres one for you, why do most college liberals turn conservative once they hit the real world and start a family?


Also dont think that ever school is over run with liberals just because there the only ones you see on the news, most conservatives have more self respect then to dance around and look like idiots.

Your just speculating that people "turn" conservative. I've never heard anything about this.

And I don't think that college campuses are liberal because of the shit I see on the knews, there have been countless polls of students that find the college population overwhelmingly liberal.

The Nephilm
03/29/03, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by WithStamin
How about this... look at any sucsessful business and you will see conservatives. This takes true brain power. I don't know how being a student automatically makes you intelligent, and professors are just an exception

You'll see CEO's that are conservative, and thats talking about the top 1% of the population, which ain't that much.

All I'm saying is that on a whole college graduates are more liberal.

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by The Nephilm
which part?

I swear to god that I have learned things in school, but I could have just as easily learned more important things in life by going out on my own and doing everyday things. The educational system in this country is a fucking joke, and above anything else I have learned how to memorize and spit out useless facts in school, and not much else.
Its a liberal school system

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by The Nephilm
You'll see CEO's that are conservative, and thats talking about the top 1% of the population, which ain't that much.

All I'm saying is that on a whole college graduates are more liberal.
Yes, but most of those college graduates are 22 or 23, they have no experience in the real world. Almost all small business owners are college graduates, almost all CEO's are college graduates, doctors are all college graduates, lawyers are college grads. They are all rich for the most part. They are almost all republicans because they dont like to pay taxes to POOR DEMOCRATS. The only "doctors" that are liberals are shrinks, but they really arent real doctors. And the only lawyers that are liberals are defense attournies, who think getting criminals off the hook is justifiable.

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by The Nephilm
Your just speculating that people "turn" conservative. I've never heard anything about this.

And I don't think that college campuses are liberal because of the shit I see on the knews, there have been countless polls of students that find the college population overwhelmingly liberal.

Your just speculating that education leads to liberalism.


Colleges are loaded with liberal propaganda so its no wonder that students become liberal when they go away to college.

yeat182
03/29/03, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Some of what he did was actually some of the best military planning the worlds has ever seen. He took over poland and France in a matter of weeks. He was able to trick Russia into not fearing him, and he almost brought britian to its kness with out getting one solider on there soil.


he also started a war with russia without finishing off the British, opening a 2 front war that he couldn't win. he also demanded that all orders come from him directly, which was a serious mistake in campaigns such as DDay, when his commanders could not make the nessecary adjustments because Hitler was asleep. I'm not saying the many was a complete idiot, he was very intellegent and a master at mass psychology and propeganda, but i would not consider him a genius by any means.

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by yeat182
he also started a war with russia without finishing off the British, opening a 2 front war that he couldn't win. he also demanded that all orders come from him directly, which was a serious mistake in campaigns such as DDay, when his commanders could not make the nessecary adjustments because Hitler was asleep. I'm not saying the many was a complete idiot, he was very intellegent and a master at mass psychology and propeganda, but i would not consider him a genius by any means.

Hey i never called him a genius, that was some one else above my post.

First he won one side of the two front war, all of france was in his hands.

Second if it hadn't been for the "russian winter" he would have beaten stalin.
The russian people, outside of the major cities, also saw hitler as a liberator when the war began and he played that into his hand.

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by yeat182
he also started a war with russia without finishing off the British, opening a 2 front war that he couldn't win. he also demanded that all orders come from him directly, which was a serious mistake in campaigns such as DDay, when his commanders could not make the nessecary adjustments because Hitler was asleep. I'm not saying the many was a complete idiot, he was very intellegent and a master at mass psychology and propeganda, but i would not consider him a genius by any means.
Hitler had impecable timing in trying to take office

yeat182
03/29/03, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Hey i never called him a genius, that was some one else above my post.

First he won one side of the two front war, all of france was in his hands.

Second if it hadn't been for the "russian winter" he would have beaten stalin.
The russian people, outside of the major cities, also saw hitler as a liberator when the war began and he played that into his hand.

yeah, i agree. i was just stating that my arguement from before was against him being called a genius. his impatience was his downfall.

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Hey i never called him a genius, that was some one else above my post.

First he won one side of the two front war, all of france was in his hands.

Second if it hadn't been for the "russian winter" he would have beaten stalin.
The russian people, outside of the major cities, also saw hitler as a liberator when the war began and he played that into his hand.
he didnt win the western or eastern front. a minor threat called the US of A came in and kicked their ass out of western Europe and pushed Germany back to Berlin. And Germany made it all the way to Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow. However that was part of Russia's tactics. Scorched earth policy and retreat. When they got back to Stalingrad they could regain their strength. Then they got their ass kicked back to Berlin, then Hitler capped himself. If he were such a genius he would have accounted for the US and the Russian Winter.

yeat182
03/29/03, 05:37 PM
he conquered all of the west except britain, which was his biggest mistake. if he finished off england before turning on Russia, the US would have had a much, much harder time in the War, and germany would have been able to divert most of its forces to the eastern front.

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by yeat182
he conquered all of the west except britain, which was his biggest mistake. if he finished off england before turning on Russia, the US would have had a much, much harder time in the War, and germany would have been able to divert most of its forces to the eastern front.
Would have, could have, should have

yeat182
03/29/03, 05:41 PM
haha, yes

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by yeat182
haha, yes I would actually consider Mussolini more of a genius than Hitler

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
he didnt win the western or eastern front. a minor threat called the US of A came in and kicked their ass out of western Europe and pushed Germany back to Berlin. And Germany made it all the way to Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow. However that was part of Russia's tactics. Scorched earth policy and retreat. When they got back to Stalingrad they could regain their strength. Then they got their ass kicked back to Berlin, then Hitler capped himself. If he were such a genius he would have accounted for the US and the Russian Winter.

Hitler was in control of western Europe for 3 yrs beforethe US/GB invasion, so yes he did win the first war of the western front.

Second the nazi never made it to Moscow. And russian tactics didn't save stalingrad, the russina winter did, because it disrupted the nazi supply lines.

Third, he couldn't have accounted for the winter because it was the worst, and this is documented, in a 100yrs, much the like the one one that bet back Napolean.

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Hitler was in control of western Europe for 3 yrs beforethe US/GB invasion, so yes he did win the first war of the western front.

Second the nazi never made it to Moscow. And russian tactics didn't save stalingrad, the russina winter did, because it disrupted the nazi supply lines.

Third, he couldn't have accounted for the winter because it was the worst, and this is documented, in a 100yrs, much the like the one one that bet back Napolean.
3 years is the blink of an eye in the scheme of things. And Hitler could never have taken Stalingrad, with or without the winter. Maybe if he had focused more on the east, or more on the west, he could have done a better job. Like the US, we focused on the eastern front first. Kicked ass, then kicked ass in the western front, multi tasking doesnt work in war

yeat182
03/29/03, 05:51 PM
wasn't stalingrad completly destroyed?

yeat182
03/29/03, 05:52 PM
also, the winter kept them from taking Moscow, they were within miles of the city before the worst of the weather struck, and they were slowly driven back.

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by yeat182
also, the winter kept them from taking Moscow, they were within miles of the city before the worst of the weather struck, and they were slowly driven back.
scortched earth also weakened the germans

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
3 years is the blink of an eye in the scheme of things. And Hitler could never have taken Stalingrad, with or without the winter. Maybe if he had focused more on the east, or more on the west, he could have done a better job. Like the US, we focused on the eastern front first. Kicked ass, then kicked ass in the western front, multi tasking doesnt work in war

Isn't conquering france, the western front, and setting up a puppet gov. and then focusing on russia, who doesn't expect the attack, the same thing.

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
scortched earth also weakened the germans

ya and it also killed his own people, what a strategy.

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Isn't conquering france, the western front, and setting up a puppet gov. and then focusing on russia, who doesn't expect the attack, the same thing.
what puppet government?

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
what puppet government?

Vichy Frances? I thought you knew history.

yeat182
03/29/03, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
what puppet government?

Vichy France

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 06:08 PM
http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/occupied/collab.htm

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Vichy Frances? I thought you knew history.
oh my bad. i thought you meant in russia. i misread. if hitler was smart though, he would have continued to blitz england until it fell. and scortched earth was a very effective was of weakening the enemy.

yeat182
03/29/03, 06:12 PM
if you are interested in what Hitler could have/should have done, i suggest a book called "What If", it is a collection of essays that look at possible alternate outcomes for some the worlds most important confilicts. each essay is written by world class historians. very very good.


one essay makes the case that Hitler should have attempted to capture the middle east rather than north africa and russia, they would have controlled the majority of the worlds oil and the would have been better equipt to take on the US and Russia.

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
oh my bad. i thought you meant in russia. i misread. if hitler was smart though, he would have continued to blitz england until it fell. and scortched earth was a very effective was of weakening the enemy.

Germany bombers couldn't reach inland any further then london and along the coast of britian so blitzing them wouldn't ahve caused it to fall only an invasion could have.

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by yeat182
if you are interested in what Hitler could have/should have done, i suggest a book called "What If", it is a collection of essays that look at possible alternate outcomes for some the worlds most important confilicts. each essay is written by world class historians. very very good.


one essay makes the case that Hitler should have attempted to capture the middle east rather than north africa and russia, they would have controlled the majority of the worlds oil and the would have been better equipt to take on the US and Russia.
ill check that out. if Hitler was smart though, he should have honored the non-agression pact with Russia and joined forces to take out england, then owning all of europe. then once the dust has settled take out all of USSR with help from Italy, Spain and N. Africa

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Germany bombers couldn't reach inland any further then london and along the coast of britian so blitzing them wouldn't ahve caused it to fall only an invasion could have.
if london fell that would be game over

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
if london fell that would be game over

He bombed the fuck out of it and it didn't fall, if any thing his bombing cause the britians to fight harder.

Bombing civilians don't win wars.

your moms hot
03/29/03, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
ill check that out. if Hitler was smart though, he should have honored the non-agression pact with Russia and joined forces to take out england, then owning all of europe. then once the dust has settled take out all of USSR with help from Italy, Spain and N. Africa
and if "what ifs" were turds, id have a full bowl by now

you cant rewrite history saying "what if..." it just doesnt work. you can barely write history as it is with all this speculation of motives and causes and shit. its all how you look at things...

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by your moms hot
and if "what ifs" were turds, id have a full bowl by now

you cant rewrite history saying "what if..." it just doesnt work. you can barely write history as it is with all this speculation of motives and causes and shit. its all how you look at things...
we are not trying to re write history. read previous posts and you will see how we got on this topic

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy

Bombing civilians don't win wars.
It ended WWII. Remember Hiroshima?
Plus a bomb and blockade tactic would have been perfect for england, islands are oportune places to bomb and blockade

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
ill check that out. if Hitler was smart though, he should have honored the non-agression pact with Russia and joined forces to take out england, then owning all of europe. then once the dust has settled take out all of USSR with help from Italy, Spain and N. Africa

That would have built up the russian army making them more powerful, now im not agreeing with him or promoting him in any way, but the way he handeled Russia was one of the most effective things he could have done, no one knows what the weather will be like and if it wasn't for that he would have controled russia.

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by BrandNewRock05
It ended WWII. Remember Hiroshima?
Plus a bomb and blockade tactic would have been perfect for england, islands are oportune places to bomb and blockade

Hiroshima was a large military base, where a 1/3 of the population was working to support the war, this wasn't the same as London. NOr were the types of bombs any where similar.

yeat182
03/29/03, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by your moms hot
and if "what ifs" were turds, id have a full bowl by now

you cant rewrite history saying "what if..." it just doesnt work. you can barely write history as it is with all this speculation of motives and causes and shit. its all how you look at things...

they aren't rewriting history, they are offering their opinions on what caused certain outcomes, and what alternate events could have taken place, it is just for kicks, it isn't written to be taken as fact. until you read it, don't bash it.

Justin_stacy
03/29/03, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by yeat182
if you are interested in what Hitler could have/should have done, i suggest a book called "What If", it is a collection of essays that look at possible alternate outcomes for some the worlds most important confilicts. each essay is written by world class historians. very very good.


one essay makes the case that Hitler should have attempted to capture the middle east rather than north africa and russia, they would have controlled the majority of the worlds oil and the would have been better equipt to take on the US and Russia.

yeats have you ever read any Henry Turtledove's books, there written as if the confederacy had won the civil war and two nations controled america?

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
Hiroshima was a large military base, where a 1/3 of the population was working to support the war, this wasn't the same as London. NOr were the types of bombs any where similar.
i know, all of that is true, im just making a point, civilians died in japan, two bombs dropped, war ended.

yeat182
03/29/03, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Justin_stacy
yeats have you ever read any Henry Turtledove's books, there written as if the confederacy had won the civil war and two nations controled america?


no i haven't, but that sounds like an interesting idea, i might have to check them out.

BrandNewRock05
03/29/03, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by yeat182
no i haven't, but that sounds like an interesting idea, i might have to check them out.
both of those books sound pretty good. im not a huge civil war buff, but that sounds pretty interesting