View Full Version : Carrie Prejean
I couldn't find a current thread on this controversial topic. So, what is your opinion on Miss Prejean and her statements made at the Miss America Pageant? I'll start off.
I DO NOT AGREE with Carrie Prejean's statement. I really couldn't care less if they have the right to get married.. It's there business. If they want to get married, what's the big deal? I am very upset about how much bullshit this woman had to take. I don't understand how someone on the street corner can say that they're against gay marriage, but the second a pageant contestant says she's against it, she becomes public enemy #1. Many people are against gay marriage, what's the big deal if this woman is against it? Isn't that right protected in the First Amendment? Freedom of Speech, Religion, and Press.
Let's here what you have to say about this topic.
Empty-headed priss caught shit for being an empty-headed priss. End of story. Dry your eyes.
thatwasamoment
07/21/09, 08:28 PM
late pass
x togepi x
07/21/09, 08:33 PM
repeat after me: freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences from said speech.
You can say whatever you want, but you have to deal with what happens when you do. You don't get a free pass to be a bigot and then hide behind the constitution to derail all criticism.
repeat after me: freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences from said speech.
You can say whatever you want, but you have to deal with what happens when you do. You don't get a free pass to be a bigot and then hide behind the constitution to derail all criticism.
Good point. I guess the constitution also gives rights to the people who criticize.
Josh Weinstein
07/21/09, 09:19 PM
She's free to express her opinions, but the fact of the matter is she is against the civil rights of millions of people on this planet. I can only assume her opinion is based on religious up-bringing. Jesus Christ loved and respected every person, regardless of ethnicity, sexual orientation or economic status. Certain Christians tend to pick and choose from the Bible. Fact: the Bible was not written by God himself but by several elitists who felt homosexual behavior was "icky" back in the day. I can't wait until the current young generation grows up and institutes gay marriage as a valid, sacred union. The majority of California voters who voted for Prop 8 were old and homophobic. They will die out soon.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:49 AM
repeat after me: freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences from said speech.
You can say whatever you want, but you have to deal with what happens when you do. You don't get a free pass to be a bigot and then hide behind the constitution to derail all criticism.
there's a difference between criticism and ridiculous media shit storms.
billyboatkid
07/22/09, 12:49 AM
I'll ding dong ditch your ass.
caveBEAR
07/22/09, 01:01 AM
I prefer Dead Zone Postkhaki, myself.
ghostyouare
07/22/09, 02:40 AM
I think the whole situation was retarded. More so for the fact taht she got shit from it. It was a loaded question with one right answer to an opinionated question. The fact that perez hilton asked it made it more ridiculous. If you disagree with, like I do, then fine move along. It was a fucking beauty pageant, a fucking vain as shit, superficial out the ass contest and we want gay marriage opinions from these people?
QuikTrig
07/22/09, 04:26 AM
if anyone should be getting shit on by the media, its perez hilton. what a joke.
Praetor
07/22/09, 06:00 AM
repeat after me: freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences from said speech.
You can say whatever you want, but you have to deal with what happens when you do. You don't get a free pass to be a bigot and then hide behind the constitution to derail all criticism.
This.
Also a common misconception: the consequences of her actions were NOT results of what she said, but instead her deciding to be a diva/not do any appearances as per her contract.
Praetor
07/22/09, 06:01 AM
She's free to express her opinions, but the fact of the matter is she is against the civil rights of millions of people on this planet. I can only assume her opinion is based on religious up-bringing. Jesus Christ loved and respected every person, regardless of ethnicity, sexual orientation or economic status. Certain Christians tend to pick and choose from the Bible. Fact: the Bible was not written by God himself but by several elitists who felt homosexual behavior was "icky" back in the day. I can't wait until the current young generation grows up and institutes gay marriage as a valid, sacred union. The majority of California voters who voted for Prop 8 were old and homophobic. They will die out soon.
So why aren't you out stoning Red Lobster patrons if you're so far above them?
there's a difference between criticism and ridiculous media shit storms.
The very fact that she (or anyone else for that matter) was surprised and perturbed by said shit storm means that she deserved every bit of it.
I think you're both morons.
fightinirish217
07/22/09, 11:04 AM
She was asked a question, she gave her opinion. Then Perez Hilton flipped out like the nutjob he is. It was all stupid.
Praetor
07/22/09, 11:10 AM
I felt the backlash was appropriate. It's not like she was voicing her opinion on the Iraq War, the economy, etc. (things with more than one side), she actually advocated denying human beings the same rights as other human beings because of a bigoted tradition. She deserved the backlash.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 11:29 AM
The very fact that she (or anyone else for that matter) was surprised and perturbed by said shit storm means that she deserved every bit of it.
I think you're both morons.
You're not talking about a church or a politician here. You're talking about a dumb as shit beauty pageant contestant who was asked a loaded question and then was demonized by the media. If you think the media outrage had one thing to do with the fact that she's against gay marriage, you're a moron. It was nothing but misplaced faux-rage invented for ratings at the expense of some airhead little girl.
You're not talking about a church or a politician here. You're talking about a dumb as shit beauty pageant contestant who was asked a loaded question and then was demonized by the media. If you think the media outrage had one thing to do with the fact that she's against gay marriage, you're a moron. It was nothing but misplaced faux-rage invented for ratings at the expense of some airhead little girl.
The question WAS loaded and the media ARE sharks out for blood.
SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN AS MUCH. I think your "rage" is just as "faux" as the media's. She had a poison to choose...lie and be politically correct, or spout of her corn-fed, christ-y nonsense and get bagged on. I don't hate her because of her answer, I hate her because she's a fake, air-headed moron who will rape this whole episode to reap profits galore. She penned a book deal YESTERDAY. Your sympathies are sorely misplaced. Maybe start worrying about the fact that people like HER and YOU are helping to ruin people who have REAL DREAMS of being together legally and lawfully, not FAUX-DREAMS of prancing around on a stage in fake boobs and swimsuits to win a plastic crown. Get fucking real.
Praetor
07/22/09, 11:36 AM
I don't hate her because of her answer
I do :wave:
I do :wave:
Should have read "I don't hate her for her answer as much as..."
Don't get me wrong, I do, too. Anyone who thinks she "suffered" in the long run as a result of this...is a moron.
Praetor
07/22/09, 11:39 AM
Should have read "I don't hate her for her answer as much as..."
Don't get me wrong, I do, too. Anyone who thinks she "suffered" in the long run as a result of this...is a moron.
No dude, that's what's so good about this country. That we have the freedom to oppress others. OUR FOUNDING FATHERS WOULD BE PROUD!
thespearkid
07/22/09, 11:40 AM
The question WAS loaded and the media ARE sharks out for blood.
SHE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN AS MUCH. I think your "rage" is just as "faux" as the media's. She had a poison to choose...lie and be politically correct, or spout of her corn-fed, christ-y nonsense and get bagged on. I don't hate her because of her answer, I hate her because she's a fake, air-headed moron who will rape this whole episode to reap profits galore. She penned a book deal YESTERDAY. Your sympathies are sorely misplaced. Maybe start worrying about the fact that people like HER and YOU are helping to ruin people who have REAL DREAMS of being together legally and lawfully, not FAUX-DREAMS of prancing around on a stage in fake boobs and swimsuits to win a plastic crown. Get fucking real.
If you think Carrie Prejam is stopping gay people from getting married, you're an idiot. She's nothing but one little girl with one little opinion. It's easy to demonize her because there's not shit she can do about it. Why not go after the really enemies of gay marriage, the Republicans who fight against it and Democrats who refuse to fight for it? What is gained by a media assault on this one girl? Where's Barack Obama's media assault? Martin Luther King Jr. said that people with "wait and see" attitudes towards civil rights are even more dangerous to the movement than dissenters. Attacking this girl is like shooting fish in a barrel and wastes time for the entire movement. Get off your moral high horse and go DO SOMETHING to help gays gain their civil rights.
No dude, that's what's so good about this country. That we have the freedom to oppress others. OUR FOUNDING FATHERS WOULD BE PROUD!
Plus---
I'm so tired of people getting upset about the media...THEY DO THEIR JOB!!! Britney ought to know by now that they'll jump on her for being fat or acting crazy. Prejean should have known they'd jump on her for her bigoted answer (and I think the DID and WANTED as much). The list could go on forever. I'm not condoning the sensationalism that goes on in the media, and the TMZ morons, but I'm saying it IS...Get used to it already!!!
Praetor
07/22/09, 11:42 AM
If you think Carrie Prejam is stopping gay people from getting married, you're an idiot. She's nothing but one little girl with one little opinion. It's easy to demonize her because there's not shit she can do about it. Why not go after the really enemies of gay marriage, the Republicans who fight against it and Democrats who refuse to fight for it? What is gained by a media assault on this one girl? Where's Barack Obama's media assault? Martin Luther King Jr. said that people with "wait and see" attitudes towards civil rights are even more dangerous to the movement than dissenters. Attacking this girl is like shooting fish in a barrel and wastes time for the entire movement. Get off your moral high horse and go DO SOMETHING to help gays gain their civil rights.
Oh shit, you dropped the MLK card. Can't argue now. It's like the Hitler card in reverse.
PS: Quit acting like we're all Obama fans in here.
caveBEAR
07/22/09, 11:43 AM
If you think Carrie Prejam is stopping gay people from getting married, you're an idiot. She's nothing but one little girl with one little opinion. It's easy to demonize her because there's not shit she can do about it. Why not go after the really enemies of gay marriage, the Republicans who fight against it and Democrats who refuse to fight for it? What is gained by a media assault on this one girl? Where's Barack Obama's media assault? Martin Luther King Jr. said that people with "wait and see" attitudes towards civil rights are even more dangerous to the movement than dissenters. Attacking this girl is like shooting fish in a barrel and wastes time for the entire movement. Get off your moral high horse and go DO SOMETHING to help gays gain their civil rights.
Uh, as the cool kids say, 'QFT'.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 11:45 AM
Oh shit, you dropped the MLK card. Can't argue now. It's like the Hitler card in reverse.
PS: Quit acting like we're all Obama fans in here.
excellent rebuttal.
If you think Carrie Prejam is stopping gay people from getting married, you're an idiot. She's nothing but one little girl with one little opinion. It's easy to demonize her because there's not shit she can do about it. Why not go after the really enemies of gay marriage, the Republicans who fight against it and Democrats who refuse to fight for it? What is gained by a media assault on this one girl? Where's Barack Obama's media assault? Martin Luther King Jr. said that people with "wait and see" attitudes towards civil rights are even more dangerous to the movement than dissenters. Attacking this girl is like shooting fish in a barrel and wastes time for the entire movement. Get off your moral high horse and go DO SOMETHING to help gays gain their civil rights.
Because I find attacking your homophobic, moronic, fairy-tale-based ideas alot more pragmatic. Believe it or not, you ARE the enemy of gay marriage, because you think like you do. You don't fight fire with fire...you fight it with education in the case of gay rights. And religious wack-jobs like yourself are my first target. The buck mostly stops with you.
Also...as I said...I don't attack her for her comments and moronic attitude as much as I attack her and her supporters for being whiny bitches about it. I'm well aware that she can't do anything about it. But she provides a VERY convenient MARTYR for nut-jobs like yourself who are more than willing to play the "persecution for Jeebus' sake" card.
suppyguppy
07/22/09, 11:46 AM
I'd hit it. That is all.
excellent rebuttal.
Well, it's true. You're distracting from the argument at hand by saying "well, HE DID IT TOOOOOOOO! Why aren't you mad at HIIIIMM?"
Grow the hell up. What the hell does MLK or Obama have to do with this discussion?
I'd hit it. That is all.
I'd hit it literally before I ever would metaphorically. Over the head. With a bag of potatoes.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 11:50 AM
Because I find attacking your homophobic, moronic, fairy-tale-based ideas alot more pragmatic. Believe it or not, you ARE the enemy of gay marriage, because you think like you do. You don't fight fire with fire...you fight it with education in the case of gay rights. And religious wack-jobs like yourself are my first target. The buck mostly stops with you.
Also...as I said...I don't attack her for her comments and moronic attitude as much as I attack her and her supporters for being whiny bitches about it. I'm well aware that she can't do anything about it. But she provides a VERY convenient MARTYR for nut-jobs like yourself who are more than willing to play the "persecution for Jeebus' sake" card.
How are media assaults educating anyone about gay rights? The kind of thing you're advocating is only going to make the right curl up further into their little ball and distract the left from the REAL enemies of the movement. If you're just looking for another chance to attack Christians, I think it would be better served elsewhere because demonizing a dumb little girl who doesn't know any better ISN'T ACCOMPLISHING ANYTHING. Hell, thanks to the media shit storm, she got a book deal and can now spread her right-wing views even further than she would have before. So tell me, how does her demonization benefit anyone but the opposition?
thespearkid
07/22/09, 11:51 AM
Well, it's true. You're distracting from the argument at hand by saying "well, HE DID IT TOOOOOOOO! Why aren't you mad at HIIIIMM?"
Grow the hell up. What the hell does MLK or Obama have to do with this discussion?
I was using the MLK quote to highlight why Carrie isn't an enemy of the movement, at least not one worth attacking so passionately. Obama is a bigger enemy than she is because he HAS the ability to do something about it and refuses, instead employing a "wait and see" attitude.
How are media assaults educating anyone about gay rights?
The kind of thing you're advocating is only going to make the right curl up further into their little ball and distract the left from the REAL enemies of the movement.
If you're just looking for another chance to attack Christians, I think it would be better served elsewhere because demonizing a dumb little girl who doesn't know any better ISN'T ACCOMPLISHING ANYTHING.
Hell, thanks to the media shit storm, she got a book deal and can now spread her right-wing views even further than she would have before. So tell me, how does her demonization benefit anyone but the opposition?
Never condoned them...simply said they were reality, and people shouldn't be shocked when the media does its job.
Whatever the right chooses to do is its own business. Who are these "REAL" enemies? And since when did YOU become an advocate of gay rights? Last I heard from you, they were "sinners" and gay sex was an abomination to "god", while hetero sex wasn't.
I don't need any opportunities to attack idiots. They do fine by themselves. I'm not "demonizing" her. I don't really give her the time of day. But I certainly don't think she needs YOU to stick up for her. Which leads me to ask...WHY are you sticking up for her? What do YOU hope to gain from it?
I was using the MLK quote to highlight why Carrie isn't an enemy of the movement, at least not one worth attacking so passionately. Obama is a bigger enemy than she is because he HAS the ability to do something about it and refuses, instead employing a "wait and see" attitude.
Well, you failed. If she isn't an "enemy of the movement", why? And who IS?
So...Obama is a bigger enemy to homosexuals than Carrie? You're an idiot.
Praetor
07/22/09, 12:01 PM
Well, you failed. If she isn't an "enemy of the movement", why? And who IS?
So...Obama is a bigger enemy to homosexuals than Carrie? You're an idiot.
Actually I digress. I agree that Obama is a bigger problem to the gay rights movement but that doesn't make Prejean any less of an idiot/a bigot/an enemy.
Actually I digress. I agree that Obama is a bigger problem to the gay rights movement but that doesn't make Prejean any less of an idiot/a bigot/an enemy.
Slow and inept team-mate =/= member of the opposing team.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:05 PM
Carrie isn't not an enemy to the gay rights movement because there's nothing she can do about it. She's nothing but a beauty pageant contestant. She's not a politician or a lobbyist. Before the media assault, she wasn't even in a position to spread her views to anyone (thanks to it though, she now has a book deal). Like the MLK quote says, people who support the movement but don't do anything to help it along are the real enemies. How long can an outdated train of thought last in legislation? Not long. The movement needs people who are willing to fight the old way of though; not by attacking individuals, but by attacking the system. Barack Obama has the ability right now to sign executive orders that would send the gay rights movement years ahead (repealing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, for example). However, he refuses to do so. People like him, who have the ability to help but choose not to, are the real enemy of the movement, not Carrie Prejean.
Carrie's a powerless idiot, which is why she isn't the enemy.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:09 PM
Slow and inept team-mate =/= member of the opposing team.
There are people who are willing to fight for gay rights and people who aren't. All things should be done according to one's ability to Barack Obama's ability does not match up with his actions. Until he proves otherwise, I consider him, and people like him, an enemy of the gay rights movement.
There are people who are willing to fight for gay rights and people who aren't. All things should be done according to one's ability to Barack Obama's ability does not match up with his actions. Until he proves otherwise, I consider him, and people like him, an enemy of the gay rights movement.
I've never argued that Obama wasn't hindering the gay rights movement. But at least he's not a homophobe. Something both you AND Prejean can't say for yourselves. People that ascribe to belief systems that make homosexuals out to be inferior (either personally or in practice) are the TRUE enemies of the gay rights movement. The very fact that you're speaking as if you're a crusader for gay rights belies the obvious anti-gay sentiment you have held for a long time on these boards, and if needed, I can gather up much evidence to shore up this claim.
In any case, you have put more fervor into sticking up for this bimbo than you ever have into supporting homosexuals.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:20 PM
I've never argued that Obama wasn't hindering the gay rights movement. But at least he's not a homophobe. Something both you AND Prejean can't say for yourselves. People that ascribe to belief systems that make homosexuals out to be inferior (either personally or in practice) are the TRUE enemies of the gay rights movement. The very fact that you're speaking as if you're a crusader for gay rights belies the obvious anti-gay sentiment you have held for a long time on these boards, and if needed, I can gather up much evidence to shore up this claim.
In any case, you have put more fervor into sticking up for this bimbo than you ever have into supporting homosexuals.
I'm not going to deny older posts I made. I've only been a Christian for around four months. Odds are, a lot of the posts you could quote from a month or so ago, I may not believe that way now. Also, I don't feel the need to post what I've done, what I do, and I what I plan to do for the gay rights movement because I've posted it before.
I'm not going to deny older posts I made. I've only been a Christian for around four months. Odds are, a lot of the posts you could quote from a month or so ago, I may not believe that way now. Also, I don't feel the need to post what I've done, what I do, and I what I plan to do for the gay rights movement because I've posted it before.
You're right. You don't need to post any of that...because despite your OUTWARD actions regarding gays, we've all read ad nauseum what your INWARD thoughts on them are- sinners whose idea of "love" is inferior in god's eyes.
So perhaps instead of throwing stones at Obama for what he theoretically COULD be doing, perhaps you COULD be denouncing your homophobic "faith" and get to work on the war of anti-gay IDEAS that pervade the U.S. Because in the end, it's your "faith" that stands as the biggest hinderance to gay-rights in the U.S., and you know that.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:27 PM
You're right. You don't need to post any of that...because despite your OUTWARD actions regarding gays, we've all read ad nauseum what your INWARD thoughts on them are- sinners whose idea of "love" is inferior in god's eyes.
So perhaps instead of throwing stones at Obama for what he theoretically COULD be doing, perhaps you COULD be denouncing your homophobic "faith" and get to work on the war of anti-gay IDEAS that pervade the U.S. Because in the end, it's your "faith" that stands as the biggest hinderance to gay-rights in the U.S., and you know that.
If you think the only way for gays to gain civil rights is to take down Christianity, they're going to be waiting awhile. I'm not going to go into detail (because I don't owe you any kind of explanation) but I realized since homosexuality isn't part of my walk with Christ, as far as I'm concerned, it isn't a sin, not that it matters to our discussion.
In other words Christianity > Obama and Carrie Prejean at being an enemy to gay rights
If you think the only way for gays to gain civil rights is to take down Christianity, they're going to be waiting awhile. I'm not going to go into detail (because I don't owe you any kind of explanation) but I realized since homosexuality isn't part of my walk with Christ, as far as I'm concerned, it isn't a sin, not that it matters to our discussion.
So what? The fact remains that there is no BIGGER hinderance to gay rights than Christianity in the United States. Period. So while you rail on Obama for his inaction, you'd best be reminded what "faith" you belong to.
You don't owe ME any explanations of your homophobia. Just the gays and lesbians you supposedly "support".
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:30 PM
Keep buying into what the media wants you to think.
Keep buying into what the media wants you to think.
Keep throwing out soundbytes rather than rebutting with an actual argument.
I'm so tired of people like you and Glenn Beck referring to "the media" as if it's a giant robot being controlled by a mad-scientist in the head with a joystick.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:33 PM
So what? The fact remains that there is no BIGGER hinderance to gay rights than Christianity in the United States. Period. So while you rail on Obama for his inaction, you'd best be reminded what "faith" you belong to.
You don't owe ME any explanations of your homophobia. Just the gays and lesbians you supposedly "support".
Those opposing the gay rights movement are not hindering it. They can't. It's an outdated viewpoint that will die like all the others. It's those who have the ability to kill it but REFUSE to who are the hindering the movement.
Those opposing the gay rights movement are not hindering it. They can't. It's an outdated viewpoint that will die like all the others. It's those who have the ability to kill it but REFUSE to who are the hindering the movement.
Simple logic:
inept, bumbling team-mate =/= opponent
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:35 PM
I'm so tired of people like you and Glenn Beck referring to "the media" as if it's a giant robot being controlled by a mad-scientist in the head with a joystick.
If you honestly don't know how manipulative the 24 news media is, you're being very naive. They purposely attempt to divide the country into two camps in order to drive up their ratings.
Those opposing the gay rights movement are not hindering it. They can't. It's an outdated viewpoint that will die like all the others. It's those who have the ability to kill it but REFUSE to who are the hindering the movement.
Loving how homophobia is an "outdated viewpoint", coming from an adherent to the most widespread and ridiculous "outdated viewpoint" in existence today. Irony at its best.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:36 PM
Simple logic:
inept, bumbling team-mate =/= opponent
A teammate who does not even show up for the game is not a teammate at all. If he shows up, you win. If he doesn't, you're remain in a stalemate. All he has to do is show up and the game is one but he hasn't yet. He's worse than those opposing the movement.
If you honestly don't know how manipulative the 24 news media is, you're being very naive. They purposely attempt to divide the country into two camps in order to drive up their ratings.
Cool story. So what?
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:36 PM
Loving how homophobia is an "outdated viewpoint", coming from an adherent to the most widespread and ridiculous "outdated viewpoint" in existence today. Irony at its best.
Love how you use every possible opening to bash Christianity.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:37 PM
Cool story. So what?
You're falling for it.
A teammate who does not even show up for the game is not a teammate at all. If he shows up, you win. If he doesn't, you're remain in a stalemate. All he has to do is show up and the game is one but he hasn't yet. He's worse than those opposing the movement.
Let me put this in VERY CLEAR TERMS:
The biggest hinderance to gays being able to marry are the ideologies INHERENT within mainstream Christianity.
Argue that point if you will.
YOU BELONG to mainstream Christianity.
HENCE...YOU ARE THE ENEMY OF THE GAY RIGHTS MOVEMENT.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:38 PM
Let me put this in VERY CLEAR TERMS:
The biggest hinderance to gays being able to marry are the ideologies INHERENT within mainstream Christianity.
Argue that point if you will.
YOU BELONG to mainstream Christianity.
HENCE...YOU ARE THE ENEMY OF THE GAY RIGHTS MOVEMENT.
Or so MSNBC would like you to believe. It's not that simple, brah.
You're falling for it.
Says the fundamentalist christian.
How so? Where did the media even enter this argument? You're jumping from Prejean to Obama to the media. What the hell are you saying?
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:39 PM
Says the fundamentalist christian.
How so? Where did the media even enter this argument? You're jumping from Prejean to Obama to the media. What the hell are you saying?
The media is the main point of this discussion. :shrug:
Or so MSNBC would like you to believe. It's not that simple, brah.
I don't even have cable. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
I love how you swallow anything the bible has to offer, only then to harp on the MSM?
The media is the main point of this discussion. :shrug:
Well, I guess all I can tell you is that my opinions are my own regarding homos and the christians that hate them.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:41 PM
I don't even have cable. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
I love how you swallow anything the bible has to offer, only then to harp on the MSM?
They're two completely different things. And you may not watch MSNBC but you certainly subscribe to their aesthetic.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:42 PM
Well, I guess all I can tell you is that my opinions are my own regarding homos and the christians that hate them.
If you really think that all Christians hate homosexuals, you've got a lot of growing up to do.
Yeah...there's no agenda or "aesthetic" from the Christian right :rolleyes:
So I subscribe to their aesthetic. I don't give a shit.
My whole point was simply that for someone throwing stones about people needing to DO SOMETHING to further the gay-rights movement, you yourself stand in the biggest glass house on the block.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:44 PM
I actually do shit other than bitch on message boards about it.
If you really think that all Christians hate homosexuals, you've got a lot of growing up to do.
I didn't say all Christians hate homosexuals. I said that in the U.S., the people that hate homosexuals are almost always Christian (or a member of an equally ridiculous "faith"). There's a difference.
And hate doesn't necessarily mean you're throwing Molotov Cocktails at them. Hate can be as subtle as you thinking that god looks less favorably on gay love than on hetero love. It's still hate.
I actually do shit other than bitch on message boards about it.
I agree...most of the stuff you put on message boards has been homophobic.
EDIT: That is...until you were shamed into renouncing those particular "posts"
thespearkid
07/22/09, 12:48 PM
I didn't say all Christians hate homosexuals. I said that in the U.S., the people that hate homosexuals are almost always Christian (or a member of an equally ridiculous "faith"). There's a difference.
And hate doesn't necessarily mean you're throwing Molotov Cocktails at them. Hate can be as subtle as you thinking that god looks less favorably on gay love than on hetero love. It's still hate.
Not gonna lie, there are ignorant Christians out there who use their religion as justification for hate. It doesn't mean Christianity itself is an enemy to the gay rights movement, as Christ obviously taught love for everyone.
Not gonna lie, there are ignorant Christians out there who use their religion as justification for hate. It doesn't mean Christianity itself is an enemy to the gay rights movement, as Christ obviously taught love for everyone.
Still, it's simple logistics...the biggest group of people who are holding up/opposing/hindering/ gay-rights are in the United States of America are called CHRISTIANS...of which YOU ARE ONE. So get off YOUR high horse about Obama or any other person of power not "doing something" until you YOURSELF have expelled yourself from THAT GROUP.
And if you disagree with the above assertion that mainstream christianity is the biggest hinderance to the gay-rights movement in the United States, feel free to rebut.
HOWEVER...claiming that "it's all MSNBC's fault" is not a rebuttal, and is frankly, a sign of desperation (see Sarah Palin and CARRIE PREJEAN).
x togepi x
07/22/09, 12:57 PM
well, what i find funny is people saying "it was totally a loaded question", which may be true, but if someone asked a similarly loaded question about race, you guys wouldn't be defending her.
like what if someone asked "so how do you feel a black man being elected to the presidency" and she said "it sucks"? would you guys still be saying "oh no! poor her, media shit storm. blah blah blah"?
i doubt it.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:00 PM
Still, it's simple logistics...the biggest group of people who are holding up/opposing/hindering/ gay-rights are in the United States of America are called CHRISTIANS...of which YOU ARE ONE. So get off YOUR high horse about Obama or any other person of power not "doing something" until you YOURSELF have expelled yourself from THAT GROUP.
And if you disagree with the above assertion that mainstream christianity is the biggest hinderance to the gay-rights movement in the United States, feel free to rebut.
HOWEVER...claiming that "it's all MSNBC's fault" is not a rebuttal, and is frankly, a sign of desperation (see Sarah Palin and CARRIE PREJEAN).
If you seriously think only non-Christians can support gay rights, you're being very one-sided about the issue. I'm not blaming it ALL on MSNBC and other mainstream media sources, but that is the picture they try to paint of politics; that all issues fall either in the left or on the right and there are no gray areas between them. Fact is, there are. WHOEVER holds a view that gays shouldn't be married are subscribing to an outdated viewpoint. All it takes is enough people willing to stand up and kill that viewpoint through ACTIONS, not attitudes and speak. The people who don't take action are the enemy.
well, what i find funny is people saying "it was totally a loaded question", which may be true, but if someone asked a similarly loaded question about race, you guys wouldn't be defending her.
like what if someone asked "so how do you feel a black man being elected to the presidency" and she said "it sucks"? would you guys still be saying "oh no! poor her, media shit storm. blah blah blah"?
i doubt it.
This, thusly.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:01 PM
well, what i find funny is people saying "it was totally a loaded question", which may be true, but if someone asked a similarly loaded question about race, you guys wouldn't be defending her.
like what if someone asked "so how do you feel a black man being elected to the presidency" and she said "it sucks"? would you guys still be saying "oh no! poor her, media shit storm. blah blah blah"?
i doubt it.
I wouldn't give a shit either way about her because she's still just a stupid girl with no power. I'd still find the media's faux-outrage to be ridiculous.
The Personist
07/22/09, 01:02 PM
If you think Carrie Prejam is stopping gay people from getting married, you're an idiot. She's nothing but one little girl with one little opinion. It's easy to demonize her because there's not shit she can do about it. Why not go after the really enemies of gay marriage, the Republicans who fight against it and Democrats who refuse to fight for it? What is gained by a media assault on this one girl? Where's Barack Obama's media assault? Martin Luther King Jr. said that people with "wait and see" attitudes towards civil rights are even more dangerous to the movement than dissenters. Attacking this girl is like shooting fish in a barrel and wastes time for the entire movement. Get off your moral high horse and go DO SOMETHING to help gays gain their civil rights.
A) She's one little girl with one opinion that reaches millions of people, some of whom are impressionable enough to eat that shit up.
B) Why not go after all the enemies of gay marriage?
C) Establishing a zero-tolerance front against things like bigotry and homophobia ultimately aids in overcoming the bigger opponents of gay marriage.
I think this was overblown, and you have a point, but that's like saying "let's ignore all the Nazis and go straight for Hitler," as if they are inconsequential.
The Holocaust couldn't have happened without so many Nazis.
If you seriously think only non-Christians can support gay rights, you're being very one-sided about the issue. I'm not blaming it ALL on MSNBC and other mainstream media sources, but that is the picture they try to paint of politics; that all issues fall either in the left or on the right and there are no gray areas between them. Fact is, there are. WHOEVER holds a view that gays shouldn't be married are subscribing to an outdated viewpoint. All it takes is enough people willing to stand up and kill that viewpoint through ACTIONS, not attitudes and speak. The people who don't take action are the enemy.
I never said only non-Christians can support gay rights. I'm talking about your condemnation of people not "DOING SOMETHING" about gay rights. All I was pointing out is that it seems awfully hypocritical coming from someone who not one month ago was expounding on the sinfulness of homosexuality, and who is currently a member of the very mainstream of Christianity that is the biggest, most powerful opponent of homosexual civil rights. Period. That's the only claim I've made thus far, and you're trying to morph it into something it isn't.
People who don't take action are inept. People who believe in nonsense and use it to justify their views are the enemy.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:06 PM
A) She's one little girl with one opinion that reaches millions of people, some of whom are impressionable enough to eat that shit up.
B) Why not go after all the enemies of gay marriage?
C) Establishing a zero-tolerance front against things like bigotry and homophobia ultimately aids in overcoming the bigger opponents of gay marriage.
I think this was overblown, and you have a point, but that's like saying "let's ignore all the Nazis and go straight for Hitler," as if they are inconsequential.
The Holocaust couldn't have happened without so many Nazis.
A) If not for the media covering her, barely anyone would know who she is or what she stands for. She is only able to reach so many people BECAUSE of the media's attack on her.
B) Because one dumb little girl is not an enemy. She's just a dumb little girl.
C) That's fascism, David. Even if you attack every single person who speaks out against gay marriage, you've still got the other side of the media speaking FOR them just as loudly. What you're advocating isn't possible.
Comparing Carrie Prejean to a Nazi is a little out there.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:08 PM
I never said only non-Christians can support gay rights. I'm talking about your condemnation of people not "DOING SOMETHING" about gay rights. All I was pointing out is that it seems awfully hypocritical coming from someone who not one month ago was expounding on the sinfulness of homosexuality, and who is currently a member of the very mainstream of Christianity that is the biggest, most powerful opponent of homosexual civil rights. Period. That's the only claim I've made thus far, and you're trying to morph it into something it isn't.
People who don't take action are inept. People who believe in nonsense and use it to justify their views are the enemy.
Inept "supporters" are a bigger hindrance to the movement than any outspoken opponent.
x togepi x
07/22/09, 01:08 PM
I wouldn't give a shit either way about her because she's still just a stupid girl with no power. I'd still find the media's faux-outrage to be ridiculous.
most instances of racism/homophobia/whatever are stupid people with no power. it still creates a climate in which that's acceptable, though i think you underestimate the power any public figure really has.
A) If not for the media covering her, barely anyone would know who she is or what she stands for. She is only able to reach so many people BECAUSE of the media's attack on her.
B) Because one dumb little girl is not an enemy. She's just a dumb little girl.
C) That's fascism, David. Even if you attack every single person who speaks out against gay marriage, you've still got the other side of the media speaking FOR them just as loudly. What you're advocating isn't possible.
Comparing Carrie Prejean to a Nazi is a little out there.
A) The media does their job. This shouldn't be a surprise. It's not right, but it just IS.
B) She is the enemy to gay-rights. She believes in nonsense, and justifies her hatred with that nonsense. That is the BIGGEST enemy to gay-rights. What could be more in enmity with gay-rights?
C) You apparently don't know what fascism is. And I don't know what "side of the media" you're referring to that is speaking FOR gay marriage, since you just excoriated the MSM for its bias. You're getting caught up.
If you think he was comparing Prejean to a Nazi, you need to learn to read.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:12 PM
most instances of racism/homophobia/whatever are stupid people with no power. it still creates a climate in which that's acceptable, though i think you underestimate the power any public figure really has.
She had barely any power at all before the media attacked her. If the goal is to show her way of thinking is outdated, then giving her a national media platform in which her opinion is played in soundbites over and over again is just counterproductive. Without the media attack, who would have even heard about her answer?
x togepi x
07/22/09, 01:13 PM
She had barely any power at all before the media attacked her. If the goal is to show her way of thinking is outdated, then giving her a national media platform in which her opinion is played in soundbites over and over again is just counterproductive. Without the media attack, who would have even heard about her answer?
so you wouldn't care if she said blacks shouldn't get elected in my example about obama?
Inept "supporters" are a bigger hindrance to the movement than any outspoken opponent.
Other than Barack Obama, you have nothing to back this up. And even with HIM, the only instance he COULD THEORETICALLY make a difference is with don't-ask-don't-tell (which I think he should).
Please back this up with some other example than the president of the united states and his ONE executive order possibility.
She had barely any power at all before the media attacked her. If the goal is to show her way of thinking is outdated, then giving her a national media platform in which her opinion is played in soundbites over and over again is just counterproductive. Without the media attack, who would have even heard about her answer?
You're again mischaracterizing the "media" as if it's a single entity, rather than a sum of parts.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:16 PM
A) The media does their job. This shouldn't be a surprise. It's not right, but it just IS.
B) She is the enemy to gay-rights. She believes in nonsense, and justifies her hatred with that nonsense. That is the BIGGEST enemy to gay-rights. What could be more in enmity with gay-rights?
C) You apparently don't know what fascism is. And I don't know what "side of the media" you're referring to that is speaking FOR gay marriage, since you just excoriated the MSM for its bias. You're getting caught up.
If you think he was comparing Prejean to a Nazi, you need to learn to read.
A) My whole point in this thread was that the media attack was ridiculous. If you agree, why the fuck are you arguing?
B) The inactive supporters are a much bigger hindrance.
C) I was talking about how the media attempts to turn every issue into a two-sided affair; you're either on the left side or you're on the right side. That's a ridiculous viewpoint to have. What David's advocating can't be done because the media so desperately tosses everything into it's two sided vacuum.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:16 PM
You're again mischaracterizing the "media" as if it's a single entity, rather than a sum of parts.
The media is an entity.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:17 PM
Not gonna lie, there are ignorant Christians out there who use their religion as justification for hate. It doesn't mean Christianity itself is an enemy to the gay rights movement, as Christ obviously taught love for everyone.
Hey, fuck you. For someone who just spent the last few pages berating someone for being "mind-controlled" by the media you sure do buy into this whole "all Christians love everybody else" mumbo jumbo. Saying that there are some devout Christians who support gay rights is like saying that when I piss in the ocean the sea level rises; it's technically true but statistically and practically irrelevant. Follow your gay-hating, sexist, and quite frankly douchebaggish God, I don't give a shit. But when you try to act like Christianity is a friend to modern progressivism...that's where I take issue.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:18 PM
so you wouldn't care if she said blacks shouldn't get elected in my example about obama?
Nope. Because it doesn't matter what she says or what she thinks. Without rampant media coverage, her opinion holds no weight. If a politician said it, I'd be fine with the attack because they would be in a position of power but I've seen all kinds of dumb rednecks say they don't think a black man should be President. I've learned to pick my battles.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:18 PM
Hey, fuck you. For someone who just spent the last few pages berating someone for being "mind-controlled" by the media you sure do buy into this whole "all Christians love everybody else" mumbo jumbo. Saying that there are some devout Christians who support gay rights is like saying that when I piss in the ocean the sea level rises; it's technically true but statistically and practically irrelevant. Follow your gay-hating, sexist, and quite frankly douchebaggish God, I don't give a shit. But when you try to act like Christianity is a friend to modern progressivism...that's where I take issue.
I didn't say it was, brah.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:20 PM
Other than Barack Obama, you have nothing to back this up. And even with HIM, the only instance he COULD THEORETICALLY make a difference is with don't-ask-don't-tell (which I think he should).
Please back this up with some other example than the president of the united states and his ONE executive order possibility.
Anyone who has never written a letter to their representative about gay marriage can be considered an example. People who have the ability to make real ACTIONS in support of the movement but refuse to do so.
x togepi x
07/22/09, 01:20 PM
Nope. Because it doesn't matter what she says or what she thinks. Without rampant media coverage, her opinion holds no weight. If a politician said it, I'd be fine with the attack because they would be in a position of power but I've seen all kinds of dumb rednecks say they don't think a black man should be President. I've learned to pick my battles.
ah, so you don't actually care about homophobia or racism, you just play the part on the internet. cool.
The media is an entity.
Not a single entity with an organized head. Learn to read.
Hey, fuck you. For someone who just spent the last few pages berating someone for being "mind-controlled" by the media you sure do buy into this whole "all Christians love everybody else" mumbo jumbo. Saying that there are some devout Christians who support gay rights is like saying that when I piss in the ocean the sea level rises; it's technically true but statistically and practically irrelevant. Follow your gay-hating, sexist, and quite frankly douchebaggish God, I don't give a shit. But when you try to act like Christianity is a friend to modern progressivism...that's where I take issue.
I think I love you
:appl:
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:20 PM
I didn't say it was, brah.
Well then maybe you should rephrase this. Brah.
Not gonna lie, there are ignorant Christians out there who use their religion as justification for hate. It doesn't mean Christianity itself is an enemy to the gay rights movement, as Christ obviously taught love for everyone.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:21 PM
ah, so you don't actually care about homophobia or racism, you just play the part on the internet. cool.
Oh, I care. I just know it's a waste of time to attack people with no power. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Why bother?
ah, so you don't actually care about homophobia or racism, you just play the part on the internet. cool.
Welcome to the freaky world of Spearkid.
x togepi x
07/22/09, 01:22 PM
Oh, I care. I just know it's a waste of time to attack people with no power. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Why bother?
apparently you don't since most cases of homophobia are done from people with no power, which gives other people with no power the idea that it's alright to think that way. people tend to be social, the easiest way to get someone to not do something is peer pressure.
Oh, I care. I just know it's a waste of time to attack people with no power. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Why bother?
Ideas are power. And her ideas fall in line with a very powerful conglomerate of people with WRONG IDEAS.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:23 PM
Oh, I care. I just know it's a waste of time to attack people with no power. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Why bother?
Political power isn't the only kind of power.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:23 PM
Well then maybe you should rephrase this. Brah.
What I said is true. People may use Christianity of justification for their hate but it does not mean the institution of Christianity is hateful in and of itself.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:23 PM
Not a single entity with an organized head. Learn to read.
I think I love you
:appl:
Goes both ways bby <3
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:25 PM
apparently you don't since most cases of homophobia are done from people with no power, which gives other people with no power the idea that it's alright to think that way. people tend to be social, the easiest way to get someone to not do something is peer pressure.
If we waste our time getting pissed off at every instance of some redneck with no power spouting homophobia or racism, we're not going to have time to get anything else done. Maybe it's just my upbringing but I've learned there's no point trying to reverse the views of individuals.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:25 PM
What I said is true. People may use Christianity of justification for their hate but it does not mean the institution of Christianity is hateful in and of itself.
Oh, so you're a pick-and-chooser. Cool.
What I said is true. People may use Christianity of justification for their hate but it does not mean the institution of Christianity is hateful in and of itself.
Hatred is as hatred does. If the majority of mainstream christians in the U.S. are against gay-rights, that means that pragmatically speaking, Christianity in the U.S. is hateful in and of itself.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:26 PM
Political power isn't the only kind of power.
And what power did Carrie Prejean have before the media assault? Has this done anything but INCREASE her power to spread her viewpoint?
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:27 PM
Hatred is as hatred does. If the majority of mainstream christians in the U.S. are against gay-rights, that means that pragmatically speaking, Christianity in the U.S. is hateful in and of itself.
If the majority of black people in America are uneducated, it doesn't mean black people are automatically uneducated.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:28 PM
Oh, so you're a pick-and-chooser. Cool.
That's what the Bible says to do, for lack of a better term.
If we waste our time getting pissed off at every instance of some redneck with no power spouting homophobia or racism, we're not going to have time to get anything else done. Maybe it's just my upbringing but I've learned there's no point trying to reverse the views of individuals.
Sure seems like a bunch of dudes on AP.net ragging on you got YOU to reverse YOUR views on homosexuality, no?
The Personist
07/22/09, 01:28 PM
A) If not for the media covering her, barely anyone would know who she is or what she stands for. She is only able to reach so many people BECAUSE of the media's attack on her.
B) Because one dumb little girl is not an enemy. She's just a dumb little girl.
C) That's fascism, David. Even if you attack every single person who speaks out against gay marriage, you've still got the other side of the media speaking FOR them just as loudly. What you're advocating isn't possible.
Comparing Carrie Prejean to a Nazi is a little out there.
A) You're right...but they're covering her, so I'm also right. Blaming the media is futile if you know that it's just gonna do its thing anyways. Why not try to address the root cause of her beliefs rather than complaining about the media? I'd say her viewpoint is more problematic than manipulative media.
B) Sarah Palin was just a dumb little girl. I guess I can stop worrying about her beliefs, then.
C) What you're advocating is ignoring the problematic belief systems and blaming the media for putting them on TV. Ridiculous.
My analogy made perfect sense.
The Personist
07/22/09, 01:29 PM
Oh, so you're a pick-and-chooser. Cool.
Let's leave the religion out of it. There's a whole thread just for that.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:29 PM
And what power did Carrie Prejean have before the media assault? Has this done anything but INCREASE her power to spread her viewpoint?
The problem with your argument is that you're tying together the left-wing and right-wing media. The right-wing God/gun-loving, gay-hating media praised her for her exercise of free albeit bigoted speech and the left-wing media demonized her for, you know, being a bigot.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:30 PM
Sure seems like a bunch of dudes on AP.net ragging on you got YOU to reverse YOUR views on homosexuality, no?
I've never given a shit what you guys think.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:30 PM
That's what the Bible says to do, for lack of a better term.
Show me where the Bible lets you pick and choose which verses to adhere to and which to ignore.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:31 PM
Let's leave the religion out of it. There's a whole thread just for that.
http://cornerstork.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/crying_baby.jpg
Let's leave the religion out of it. There's a whole thread just for that.
It's hard, because I'd say the root of the problem of homophobia is largely rooted in religion (or the abuse/misuse thereof)
I've never given a shit what you guys think.
Funny...considering with a short search I can come up with an apology for your homophobic rants.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:33 PM
A) You're right...but they're covering her, so I'm also right. Blaming the media is futile if you know that it's just gonna do its thing anyways. Why not try to address the root cause of her beliefs rather than complaining about the media? I'd say her viewpoint is more problematic than manipulative media.
B) Sarah Palin was just a dumb little girl. I guess I can stop worrying about her beliefs, then.
C) What you're advocating is ignoring the problematic belief systems and blaming the media for putting them on TV. Ridiculous.
My analogy made perfect sense.
A) My answer to the thread topic was that I found the media shit storm ridiculous. Her views, I disagree with as well but that is beside the point. The media has done nothing but give her a platform on which to share her views further than she ever would have had the ability to without the media attack.
B) Sarah Palin is not just a dumb little girl. She's a (former) governor. She has political power.
C) I'm advocating not attacking individuals.
The Personist
07/22/09, 01:33 PM
http://cornerstork.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/crying_baby.jpg
You're an idiot.
It's hard, because I'd say the root of the problem of homophobia is largely rooted in religion (or the abuse/misuse thereof)
Perhaps, but, again, it's the specific brand of religion more so than it is religion in general. I'm a picker and a chooser, technically, so I take offense to that being derided...especially because i've written volumes about how I do so and why I do it.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:33 PM
Funny...considering with a short search I can come up with an apology for your homophobic rants.
http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/gameover.gif
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:33 PM
Show me where the Bible lets you pick and choose which verses to adhere to and which to ignore.
It says the Bible is meant to be relevant to the individual and that one's walk with Christ is personal.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:35 PM
You're an idiot.
Perhaps, but, again, it's the specific brand of religion more so than it is religion in general. I'm a picker and a chooser, technically, so I take offense to that being derided...especially because i've written volumes about how I do so and why I do it.
:shrug: Like GeeBee said, the only argument that exists against gay marriage/gay rights is one rooted in religion and faith. You cannot have a discussion about LGBT rights without discussing religion, its place in politics, and its validity as an institution. If that offends you then I suggest you leave.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:35 PM
Funny...considering with a short search I can come up with an apology for your homophobic rants.
My change in views had nothing to do with any of you. The discussion made me think/pray about it more and through that, I changed my view but, trust me, it had nothing to do with what any of you think about me.
Perhaps, but, again, it's the specific brand of religion more so than it is religion in general. I'm a picker and a chooser, technically, so I take offense to that being derided...especially because i've written volumes about how I do so and why I do it.
But you know that in general, you are the exception, not the rule. We spent dozens of pages getting to that point. Being a literalist and picking and choosing is a far cry from what you do.
http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/gameover.gif
I choked on Triscuits....then proceeded to laughter.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:36 PM
It says the Bible is meant to be relevant to the individual and that one's walk with Christ is personal.
...so that's code for "Go ahead and ignore the things I want you to do if it means abandoning your worldly ways and that makes you uncomfortable"?
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:36 PM
But you know that in general, you are the exception, not the rule. We spent dozens of pages getting to that point. Being a literalist and picking and choosing is a far cry from what you do.
I choked on Triscuits....then proceeded to laughter.
mmm Triscuits. The roasted garlic ones are like heaven.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:36 PM
:shrug: Like GeeBee said, the only argument that exists against gay marriage/gay rights is one rooted in religion and faith. You cannot have a discussion about LGBT rights without discussing religion, its place in politics, and its validity as an institution. If that offends you then I suggest you leave.
That's not true. Inactive supporters play just as big a role, if not a bigger one, in hindering the gay rights movement. Pinning it all on Christianity is ridiculous.
The discussion made me think/pray about it more and through that, I changed my view
My point stands.
mmm Triscuits. The roasted garlic ones are like heaven.
Speak of the devil!!!!
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:38 PM
That's not true. Inactive supporters play just as big a role, if not a bigger one, in hindering the gay rights movement. Pinning it all on Christianity is ridiculous.
There wouldn't have to be a gay rights movement/struggle pushing against the establishment if the establishment (the bigots hindering progressive LGBT legislation) wasn't so rooted in religion. Try again champ.
The Personist
07/22/09, 01:38 PM
:shrug: Like GeeBee said, the only argument that exists against gay marriage/gay rights is one rooted in religion and faith. You cannot have a discussion about LGBT rights without discussing religion, its place in politics, and its validity as an institution. If that offends you then I suggest you leave.
But you can't have an argument about religion if you're going to say "all religion is this religion and is therefore bad." That's like me saying "All atheists are Richard Dawkins atheists and are therefore morons." I understand the need for religious discussion; however, your immature and generalized polemic is neither productive nor particularly pertinent to the discussion insofar as you are more so attacking Dion than anything else.
Smart religious people know the Bible is no basis for discriminating against homosexuality.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:38 PM
I want to comment on the discussion occurring in the thread, but I have no idea where to start. lol
peder458
07/22/09, 01:39 PM
That's not true. Inactive supporters play just as big a role, if not a bigger one, in hindering the gay rights movement. Pinning it all on Christianity is ridiculous.
maybe you could elaborate why being inactive is a bigger obstacle to gay rights than christianity?
That's not true. Inactive supporters play just as big a role, if not a bigger one, in hindering the gay rights movement. Pinning it all on Christianity is ridiculous.
Name me any SECULAR group that opposes marriage for homosexuals. And no, libertarians who don't think the government should be "in the business of marriage" don't count.
Face it...98% of all opposition in the U.S. to gay marriage can be traced back to religious teachings.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:40 PM
That's not true. Inactive supporters play just as big a role, if not a bigger one, in hindering the gay rights movement. Pinning it all on Christianity is ridiculous.
Honestly, all the bigotry in this world is rooted in religion...whether it be Christianity or whatever. This isn't merely because of the statements made in the Bible that are supposed to be against it, but also due to the specific gender roles the Bible gives to men and women. It was generally frowned upon back in those days for those roles to reverse and as we've noticed over time, people have become significantly more comfortable will more fluid gender roles or no roles at all. It's very, very, very deep rooted in our society.
But you can't have an argument about religion if you're going to say "all religion is this religion and is therefore bad." That's like me saying "All atheists are Richard Dawkins atheists and are therefore morons." I understand the need for religious discussion; however, your immature and generalized polemic is neither productive nor particularly pertinent to the discussion insofar as you are more so attacking Dion than anything else.
Smart religious people know the Bible is no basis for discriminating against homosexuality.
I'll defer to Praetor's point about piss in the ocean. Smart religious people of the brand you just described are in the minority.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:41 PM
But you can't have an argument about religion if you're going to say "all religion is this religion and is therefore bad." That's like me saying "All atheists are Richard Dawkins atheists and are therefore morons." I understand the need for religious discussion; however, your immature and generalized polemic is neither productive nor particularly pertinent to the discussion insofar as you are more so attacking Dion than anything else.
Smart religious people know the Bible is no basis for discriminating against homosexuality.
No, but I can say that many of the problems that the progressive movement faces in this country have roots in religion and therefore religion mingling with politics is bad, which is the argument that I've been making.
maybe you could elaborate why being inactive is a bigger obstacle to gay rights than christianity?
See what I mean? This whole thing should have just started in the religion thread! :-d
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:42 PM
And to blame inactive supporters is just a bit ridiculous. Yes, maybe they are a 5% cause of the slow progress of the LGBT rights movement in this country, but they are by far a very, very, very small minority. The biggest reason most people are inactive in their support (especially in a place like California) is because people just assumed that since Cali is so liberal there is no way Prop 8 would ever pass. Unfortunately, they underestimated the religious right and how passionately they feel about denying people rights and pushing their beliefs on other people.
To claim that religion isn't the number one hindrance on the progression of LGBT rights is just being ignorant.
To claim that religion isn't the number one hindrance on the progression of LGBT rights is just being ignorant.
Fixed. ;-)
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:44 PM
And to blame inactive supporters is just a bit ridiculous. Yes, maybe they are a 5% cause of the slow progress of the LGBT rights movement in this country, but they are by far a very, very, very small minority. The biggest reason most people are inactive in their support (especially in a place like California) is because people just assumed that since Cali is so liberal there is no way Prop 8 would ever pass. Unfortunately, they underestimated the religious right and how passionately they feel about denying people rights and pushing their beliefs on other people.
This is exactly the reason that I did not contribute any funds to the campaign. I did not properly understand Californian demographics at the time. It was so shocking to me.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:46 PM
Fixed. ;-)Thanks!
This is exactly the reason that I did not contribute any funds to the campaign. I did not properly understand Californian demographics at the time. It was so shocking to me.And that was the LGBT communities ignorance at the time. I mean, come on, it's fucking California...who honestly thought that shit was going to pass. If ANY state should have same-sex marriage legalized, it should be California. Honestly, it was a good thing for the LGBT community that Prop 8 did pass because it gave everyone a gigantic slap in the face and made them realize how much further we had to go to obtain equal rights.
People may be accepting of gay men providing them with comedy in their evening sitcoms or the existence of gay men and lesbian women in general, but we still have very, very far to go.
peder458
07/22/09, 01:46 PM
See what I mean? This whole thing should have just started in the religion thread! :-d
i know! i was just going to observe, but i had an honest question that didn't get answered. i had to ask...
This is exactly the reason that I did not contribute any funds to the campaign. I did not properly understand Californian demographics at the time. It was so shocking to me.
People around the world starve, and mormons dug deep to find 28 MILLION dollars to help make sure gay people don't get a piece of paper. Don't try to tell me that religion isn't the main hinderance to gay-rights.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:48 PM
People around the world starve, and mormons dug deep to find 28 MILLION dollars to help make sure gay people don't get a piece of paper. Don't try to tell me that religion isn't the main hinderance to gay-rights.
I honestly just do not get that. There are people DYING in this world. People starving and dying, yet they feel it's better suited to put millions upon millions of dollars to stop gay marriage? REALLY?!
I'm sorry, but if Jesus was alive today I'm sure he would have looked at Prop 8, laughed and went and actually helped people that needed it.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:50 PM
And in regards to the general Carrie Prejean discussion. What the fuck do you expect to happen when you're in a beauty pageant on national TV? I mean, obviously it was a loaded question...a loaded question that she answered HORRIBLY. Go read the transcript. It was one of the worst responses I had ever heard aside from that one that continually used "such as." She only made it worse on herself by throwing herself into the spotlight. She could have easily disappeared into the dark never to be seen again, but instead she made a point to go on national talk shows and try and become the new face for the anti gay marriage movement.
I feel no sympathy for all the shit she has gotten. People by now should know how the media works and how they function. She's basically asking for it.
I honestly just do not get that. There are people DYING in this world. People starving and dying, yet they feel it's better suited to put millions upon millions of dollars to stop gay marriage? REALLY?!
I'm sorry, but if Jesus was alive today I'm sure he would have looked at Prop 8, laughed and went and actually helped people that needed it.
I imagine he would've went straight to the courthouse and said "which of you homos want ME to perform the ceremony?"
And the crowd would've gone wild.
Blasphemous.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:51 PM
Thanks!
And that was the LGBT communities ignorance at the time. I mean, come on, it's fucking California...who honestly thought that shit was going to pass. If ANY state should have same-sex marriage legalized, it should be California. Honestly, it was a good thing for the LGBT community that Prop 8 did pass because it gave everyone a gigantic slap in the face and made them realize how much further we had to go to obtain equal rights.
Seriously. I mean, it's California. Harvey Milk became city supervisor in California. It still kind of surprises me but recently I took a trip to California and got to understand its demographics much more. It's pretty red a state for a blue state, if you know what I mean, haha. It's like New York; the only blue parts are the cities but it just so happens that the cities are enough to tip the electoral map blue (thank God).
The irony here, of course, is that gay marriage is legal in Iowa but not in California. God bless America.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:51 PM
I imagine he would've went straight to the courthouse and said "which of you homos want ME to perform the ceremony?"
And the crowd would've gone wild.
Blasphemous.
That's who I want to perform my ceremony!
And in regards to the general Carrie Prejean discussion. What the fuck do you expect to happen when you're in a beauty pageant on national TV? I mean, obviously it was a loaded question...a loaded question that she answered HORRIBLY. Go read the transcript. It was one of the worst responses I had ever heard aside from that one that continually used "such as." She only made it worse on herself by throwing herself into the spotlight. She could have easily disappeared into the dark never to be seen again, but instead she made a point to go on national talk shows and try and become the new face for the anti gay marriage movement.
I feel no sympathy for all the shit she has gotten. People by now should know how the media works and how they function. She's basically asking for it.
Dittoed.
The media is the media. Get used to it.
That's who I want to perform my ceremony!
Hopefully after he's got a good shower and a shave in! :-d
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:52 PM
I honestly just do not get that. There are people DYING in this world. People starving and dying, yet they feel it's better suited to put millions upon millions of dollars to stop gay marriage? REALLY?!
I'm sorry, but if Jesus was alive today I'm sure he would have looked at Prop 8, laughed and went and actually helped people that needed it.
Agreed, which is why I find it unfair to blame Christianity when it is ignorant Christians who hinder the gay rights movement, not Christianity itself.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:52 PM
Seriously. I mean, it's California. Harvey Milk became city supervisor in California. It still kind of surprises me but recently I took a trip to California and got to understand its demographics much more. It's pretty red a state for a blue state, if you know what I mean, haha. It's like New York; the only blue parts are the cities but it just so happens that the cities are enough to tip the electoral map blue (thank God).
The irony here, of course, is that gay marriage is legal in Iowa but not in California. God bless America.
That's how most of the west coast states are though. All the cities that are on the ocean side of the three states tend to be a lot more progressive and liberal, but once you start moving inland they become more and more conservative. At least that's the way WA state is. Everything west of the mountains is blue and everything east is red, it just so happens the west side has the largest population and the majority.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:53 PM
For a quick deviation here, I don't mean to start a shitstorm or anything but I like the Bible. Honestly I believe it is a work of fiction but it is a good work of fiction. There are some very interesting/cool stories in there. Personally I don't put any more stock in it than I do any other work of fiction, but if you take the religion off of it some of the stories of Jesus' travels and encounters are pretty interesting.
Seriously. I mean, it's California. Harvey Milk became city supervisor in California. It still kind of surprises me but recently I took a trip to California and got to understand its demographics much more. It's pretty red a state for a blue state, if you know what I mean, haha. It's like New York; the only blue parts are the cities but it just so happens that the cities are enough to tip the electoral map blue (thank God).
The irony here, of course, is that gay marriage is legal in Iowa but not in California. God bless America.
Iran allowed YouTube before the campus of Brigham Young University. God Bless America.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:53 PM
And in regards to the general Carrie Prejean discussion. What the fuck do you expect to happen when you're in a beauty pageant on national TV? I mean, obviously it was a loaded question...a loaded question that she answered HORRIBLY. Go read the transcript. It was one of the worst responses I had ever heard aside from that one that continually used "such as." She only made it worse on herself by throwing herself into the spotlight. She could have easily disappeared into the dark never to be seen again, but instead she made a point to go on national talk shows and try and become the new face for the anti gay marriage movement.
I feel no sympathy for all the shit she has gotten. People by now should know how the media works and how they function. She's basically asking for it.
She's a beauty pageant contestant. Do you really think she knows how the media works?
She's a beauty pageant contestant. Do you really think she knows how the media works?
Exactly our point! She's a victim of her own stupidity and ignorance. She's in good company with her online defender.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:54 PM
That's how most of the west coast states are though. All the cities that are on the ocean side of the three states tend to be a lot more progressive and liberal, but once you start moving inland they become more and more conservative. At least that's the way WA state is. Everything west of the mountains is blue and everything east is red, it just so happens the west side has the largest population and the majority.
The electoral process is so weird and confusing to me. It just kind of seems like a pointless institution.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:54 PM
Exactly our point! She's a victim of her own stupidity and ignorance. She's in good company with her online defender.
The personal attacks are getting old.
My Broken Fever
07/22/09, 01:54 PM
Christianity (or rather abrahamic faiths) is the root of why there is even a discussion about the rights of homosexuals, like it or not.
EDIT: Fuck this thread goes fast, never mind me.
The personal attacks are getting old.
Your posts are insulting to my intelligence, so I guess we're even.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:55 PM
Agreed, which is why I find it unfair to blame Christianity when it is ignorant Christians who hinder the gay rights movement, not Christianity itself.
But if you look at it, it is Christianity itself. Christianity is based off the Bible and the Bible is full of racism, sexism and homophobia if you glance at it. If you take a deeper look you might get a different perspective, but then again some that take a deeper look get the same perspective. The majority of Christians are the ones that believe homosexuality is a sin and are trying to stop the legalization of same-sex marriage. It's Christianity's fault for being so freakin' vague.
And whose to say my interpretation of Jesus, God, Christianity and the Bible is the right one? No one. Due to this it's hard to get anyone to believe the "truth" because no one knows wtf it is, yet they all think they have it.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:55 PM
Iran allowed YouTube before the campus of Brigham Young University. God Bless America.
hahaha good point.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:56 PM
She's a beauty pageant contestant. Do you really think she knows how the media works?
Come the fuck on. Any idiot knows how the media functions. I'm sure she reads her tabloids and gets kicks out of being all up in celeb's personal lives. She obviously knows how the media works because she used her statements at the pageant to catapult herself into the spotlight. I mean, does anyone even know or remember who actually won Miss America?
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:57 PM
Your posts are insulting to my intelligence, so I guess we're even.
Ignoring.
But if you look at it, it is Christianity itself. Christianity is based off the Bible and the Bible is full of racism, sexism and homophobia if you glance at it. If you take a deeper look you might get a different perspective, but then again some that take a deeper look get the same perspective. The majority of Christians are the ones that believe homosexuality is a sin and are trying to stop the legalization of same-sex marriage. It's Christianity's fault for being so freakin' vague.
And whose to say my interpretation of Jesus, God, Christianity and the Bible is the right one? No one. Due to this it's hard to get anyone to believe the "truth" because no one knows wtf it is, yet they all think they have it.
Christianity is meant to apply to one's personal life. Lots of people try to make theirs apply to everyone's. :shrug: Still, Christianity in and of itself is not the enemy.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:57 PM
Come the fuck on. Any idiot knows how the media functions. I'm sure she reads her tabloids and gets kicks out of being all up in celeb's personal lives. She obviously knows how the media works because she used her statements at the pageant to catapult herself into the spotlight. I mean, does anyone even know or remember who actually won Miss America?
haha it reminds me of Susan Boyle and Britain's Got Talent. Those poor guys that won didn't really win anything hahaha
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:58 PM
The electoral process is so weird and confusing to me. It just kind of seems like a pointless institution.
Yea, I don't really get it at all either. I mean, everyone preaches "every vote counts!" but if you live in states like WA, OR, or CA you KNOW it's always going to go blue. So as a Republican your vote is sort of lost. What's the point? Obviously it's different in states that teeter between the two, but we can typically predict where the majority of them will go.
Praetor
07/22/09, 01:59 PM
Your posts are insulting to my intelligence, so I guess we're even.
hahahahaha winner
Christianity is meant to apply to one's personal life. Lots of people try to make theirs apply to everyone's. :shrug: Still, Christianity in and of itself is not the enemy.
So it's just the people that misinterpret Christianity that are?
thespearkid
07/22/09, 01:59 PM
Come the fuck on. Any idiot knows how the media functions. I'm sure she reads her tabloids and gets kicks out of being all up in celeb's personal lives. She obviously knows how the media works because she used her statements at the pageant to catapult herself into the spotlight. I mean, does anyone even know or remember who actually won Miss America?
She didn't catapult herself. She was catapulted. Now she's using it to spread her views even further.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 01:59 PM
Ignoring.
Christianity is meant to apply to one's personal life. Lots of people try to make theirs apply to everyone's. :shrug: Still, Christianity in and of itself is not the enemy.
But that's YOUR interpretation of Christianity and many people view it differently and everyone thinks they are the ones that have it right. That is the ultimate flaw in the Christian faith. No one will know the truth behind any of it until they die and possibly meet Jesus/God in heaven one day and have a heart to heart with either of them.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 02:00 PM
hahahahaha winner
So it's just the people that misinterpret Christianity that are?
I would agree with that. Above anything else the Bible talks about is the transformative love and Christ.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 02:01 PM
But that's YOUR interpretation of Christianity and many people view it differently and everyone thinks they are the ones that have it right. That is the ultimate flaw in the Christian faith. No one will know the truth behind any of it until they die and possibly meet Jesus/God in heaven one day and have a heart to heart with either of them.
I wouldn't call it a flaw so much as I would say it's wrong that people think that way about their walk with Christ. The Bible never told us to force our walk on everyone else so that's not something you can blame on Christianity.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:01 PM
Yea, I don't really get it at all either. I mean, everyone preaches "every vote counts!" but if you live in states like WA, OR, or CA you KNOW it's always going to go blue. So as a Republican your vote is sort of lost. What's the point? Obviously it's different in states that teeter between the two, but we can typically predict where the majority of them will go.
My birther/racist/homophobic/FairTax-supporting dad (who lived with Sarah Palin's family for a few months, btw /swt brag) always bitches about how his vote doesn't really count since we live in Upstate NY (very conservative part of a blue state) and I kind of agree with him, which considering his political views is a first. I'll be able to vote in 2012 and I know how frustrated I would be if I lived in a red state since more than likely my vote will be a blue one.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:03 PM
She didn't catapult herself. She was catapulted. Now she's using it to spread her views even further.
You're telling me that she didn't try to capitalize on the media extravaganza?
I would agree with that. Above anything else the Bible talks about is the transformative love and Christ.
So what separates an interpretation from a misinterpretation? Where's the line? Who are you to judge which is which?
SlappedActor
07/22/09, 02:03 PM
The electoral process is so weird and confusing to me. It just kind of seems like a pointless institution.
Agreed, which is why I didn't vote in the 2008 election. A lot of people got quite upset with me over that, but I live in a state where my vote is essentially an empty function to make me feel like I did a duty and nothing more. I went to the gym instead, and honestly feel like that was a much more productive way to spend that time.
edit: off the main topic, I know, but I just thought I'd throw that in there.
sokonfused
07/22/09, 02:03 PM
But if you look at it, it is Christianity itself. Christianity is based off the Bible and the Bible is full of racism, sexism and homophobia if you glance at it. If you take a deeper look you might get a different perspective, but then again some that take a deeper look get the same perspective. The majority of Christians are the ones that believe homosexuality is a sin and are trying to stop the legalization of same-sex marriage. It's Christianity's fault for being so freakin' vague.
And whose to say my interpretation of Jesus, God, Christianity and the Bible is the right one? No one. Due to this it's hard to get anyone to believe the "truth" because no one knows wtf it is, yet they all think they have it.
i pretty much agree with you on most aspects. i'm catholic. but i have a completely different interpretation of the bible than other religious people. one of the issues with the bible is that it can be interpreted so many different ways, and everyone thinks that they have the right one. if you disagree, then you're wrong and you're going to burn in hell for not listening to what god is really trying to say in the bible. that kind of perspective on things is so frustrating to me. i don't agree with just blaming christianity though. i think you have to take into account both parts. it's not just the religion, but the people who practice it through their own interpretation.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:04 PM
She didn't catapult herself. She was catapulted. Now she's using it to spread her views even further.
No, she did catapult herself. She was the one that chose to go on the talk shows after the fact. She was the one who made sure America knew her face. She made those decisions for herself.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 02:06 PM
You're telling me that she didn't try to capitalize on the media extravaganza?
So what separates an interpretation from a misinterpretation? Where's the line? Who are you to judge which is which?
And yes, she is capitalizing off the media frenzy but she didn't create it. I'm not defending her views or even her, really. I'm saying what the media did in response to her statements was ridiculous and only gave her the power to further her view.
The first time, you said misrepresent. There's a difference between misinterpret and misrepresent. The Bible tells Christians in be examples of Christ's love at all times. Anyone who doesn't do that is misrepresenting their faith.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:06 PM
This thread is making my Who Quoted Me? explode.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 02:06 PM
No, she did catapult herself. She was the one that chose to go on the talk shows after the fact. She was the one who made sure America knew her face. She made those decisions for herself.
There had to have been a media interest for her to capitalize on. She didn't create that.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:07 PM
And yes, she is capitalizing off the media frenzy but she didn't create it. I'm not defending her views or even her, really. I'm saying what the media did in response to her statements was ridiculous and only gave her the power to further her view.
The first time, you said misrepresent. There's a difference between misinterpret and misrepresent. The Bible tells Christians in be examples of Christ's love at all times. Anyone who doesn't do that is misrepresenting their faith.
Then I misspoke the first time. Still doesn't change shit. My meaning is still intact. Who are you to say that every Christian who doesn't agree with your view on the Bible is misinterpreting scripture and misrepresenting their faith?
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:07 PM
I wouldn't call it a flaw so much as I would say it's wrong that people think that way about their walk with Christ. The Bible never told us to force our walk on everyone else so that's not something you can blame on Christianity.
It is 100% a flaw in Christianity. The Bible is very vague, to say the least. I have seen far too many people use Bible verses to argue opposing points with one another. If you have a particular view on things, I'm sure there's a Bible verse you could find to support it. Everyone has their own interpretation and believes it should be practice in one way, that's why we have so many denominations in the Christian faith. Each one thinks they are the right one.
And I guarantee I can find someone who could argue that the Bible does in fact tell us to force our beliefs on others and they would have verses to back themselves up.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:09 PM
There had to have been a media interest for her to capitalize on. She didn't create that.
She created it by making the statement she did. Granted, I commend her on being honest and expressing a not so popular belief, however the moment those words left her mouth she had to have known the backlash it would cause.
If she would have stfu and sat in the dark the media would have moved onto something new and fresh, they always do, yet she continually went on shows like the Today show and made a face for herself. She 100% capitalized on all the negative attention and I'm sure she's laughing all the way to the bank because of it.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:10 PM
And I guarantee I can find someone who could argue that the Bible does in fact tell us to force our beliefs on others and they would have verses to back themselves up.
I do sound tech work at a church and the pastor once did a sermon on how the verse "Go and make disciples of all nations" was meant to incite followers to be pushy about their faith and not timid. He traced the etymology of the word "go", explained its context in the original Hebrew...pretty interesting, albeit offensive.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 02:10 PM
Then I misspoke the first time. Still doesn't change shit. My meaning is still intact. Who are you to say that every Christian who doesn't agree with your view on the Bible is misinterpreting scripture and misrepresenting their faith?
I'm no one. I'm just saying what I believe.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 02:11 PM
She created it by making the statement she did. Granted, I commend her on being honest and expressing a not so popular belief, however the moment those words left her mouth she had to have known the backlash it would cause.
If she would have stfu and sat in the dark the media would have moved onto something new and fresh, they always do, yet she continually went on shows like the Today show and made a face for herself. She 100% capitalized on all the negative attention and I'm sure she's laughing all the way to the bank because of it.
I agree, she is totally capitalizing on it and making bank. That doesn't change the fact that, odds are, she had no clue anyone would give a shit about her statements.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:11 PM
I'm no one. I'm just saying what I believe.
No, you're speaking in absolutes. You're not saying "I disagree with their representation" you are saying that THEY ARE MISREPRESENTING THEIR FAITH.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:11 PM
I do sound tech work at a church and the pastor once did a sermon on how the verse "Go and make disciples of all nations" was meant to incite followers to be pushy about their faith and not timid. He traced the etymology of the word "go", explained its context in the original Hebrew...pretty interesting, albeit offensive.
Which is the exact flaw in Christianity. The flaw in Christianity is the Bible. Like I said before, you can have two people who both proclaim to be Christian argue opposing points on a topic and both use Bible verses to support their case. It's just stupid. And they're all too bullheaded to admit they might be wrong.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 02:12 PM
No, you're speaking in absolutes. You're not saying "I disagree with their representation" you are saying that THEY ARE MISREPRESENTING THEIR FAITH.
I believe they are, yes. If I preface all my posts with "I my opinion" would that make you happy?
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:12 PM
I agree, she is totally capitalizing on it and making bank. That doesn't change the fact that, odds are, she had no clue anyone would give a shit about her statements.
I'm sorry, but I highly fucking doubt that after being asked a question like that and giving an answer like that she would think no one would give a shit.
thespearkid
07/22/09, 02:14 PM
I'm sorry, but I highly fucking doubt that after being asked a question like that and giving an answer like that she would think no one would give a shit.
She looks dumb enough to me.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:15 PM
She looks dumb enough to me.
I'm sorry, but she chose to be part of a televised beauty competition. She knew she was going to be in the spotlight one way or another. She may not have known the type of questions coming to her, but she was setting herself up for something potentially bad in the first place.
i was blidnly open for gay marriage, just because i had the viewpoint that if people want to get married they should be able to. though recently saw a debate with perez hilton and another christian liberal type. but perez just made a mockery of the debate. whereas the christian liberal had a much better argument as to why he was anti gay marriage. whilst im still 100% for gay relationships, a few points that worry me are:
- raising children. the liberal stated their is something a man can give a child a woman cant as a parent, and visa versa. which is tottaly true. not to mention the predjudice the child would recieve at say school or sports.
- the definition of marriage. im personally unsure how the definition of marriage can be changed. by that logic children will be tought in schools at a young age of marriage between both sexes, and 5 year olds will have to choose whether they will want to marry a man or a woman when they grow up. which seems a bit contradictory as most gay people say "being homosexual isnt a choice, we were born that way" which is fair enough, but they seem to want to create the choice.
- perez then went onto compare the fact that black and whites werent allowed to marry to gay marriage bans. which when you think about it is the most stupid argument i have ever heard. an interacial couple isnt the same as a same sex couple. not even close. that was a law based on hate.
either way im on the fence at the minute, leaning towards gays have the same rights as the rest of the world, and as a society should be treated the same as everyone else, and allowed to be together. im just unsure whether the definition of marriage should be changed yet. i am prepared to hear more arguments.
that being said i aplogise for bringing perez hilton up in an argument, its a shame for the gay community he has become the self appointed posterboy.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:17 PM
I'm sorry, but she chose to be part of a televised beauty competition. She knew she was going to be in the spotlight one way or another. She may not have known the type of questions coming to her, but she was setting herself up for something potentially bad in the first place.
Not only that, but she said it to fucking Perez Hilton. That's like me telling a black man that he shouldn't be allowed to drink from the same fountain that I drink from. Even if I believed it I wouldn't go there. Dangerous territory.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:24 PM
- raising children. the liberal stated their is something a man can give a child a woman cant as a parent, and visa versa. which is tottaly true.
So are you against single parenthood?
not to mention the predjudice the child would recieve at say school or sports. Legitimate; however this is a societal problem and not a parental problem.
- the definition of marriage. im personally unsure how the definition of marriage can be changed. Easy: let LGBT American citizens marry.
by that logic children will be tought in schools at a young age of marriage between both sexes, and 5 year olds will have to choose whether they will want to marry a man or a woman when they grow up. When I was five years old I decided that I wanted to be an astronaut. Funny how things change once you understand yourself better.
which seems a bit contradictory as most gay people say "being homosexual isnt a choice, we were born that way" which is fair enough, but they seem to want to create the choice. Teaching kids to be more accepting of homosexuality won't lead to more gay kids (as if that's a horrible thing). Maybe it will lead kids to grow up in a world where they don't have to assume that they're heterosexual and that homosexual feelings aren't wrong or to be shamed.
Also it's obviously not a choice and saying so spits in the face of all science and logic; but really, who cares if it is or not?
- perez then went onto compare the fact that black and whites werent allowed to marry to gay marriage bans. which when you think about it is the most stupid argument i have ever heard. an interacial couple isnt the same as a same sex couple. not even close. that was a law based on hate. Actually it's the exact same thing. What is the current law based on? What legitimacies does it have? Like I've said a million times; I'm heterosexual. Why does gay marriage affect me one way or the other? What stake would I have in this? What would I have to lose if gays had the right to marry?
either way im on the fence at the minute, leaning towards gays have the same rights as the rest of the world, and as a society should be treated the same as everyone else, and allowed to be together. im just unsure whether the definition of marriage should be changed yet. i am prepared to hear more arguments. Marriage, the way I see it, has two definitions: religious and legal. The legal defintion of marriage gives thousands of rights to the participants...priveleged conversations, hospital visitations, tax benefits, you name it. Then there's the religious definition which has no bearing on the legal definition because of separation of church and state.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:25 PM
- raising children. the liberal stated their is something a man can give a child a woman cant as a parent, and visa versa. which is tottaly true. not to mention the predjudice the child would recieve at say school or sports.Whether gay marriage is legalized or not, LGBT couples will still be having/adopting and raising children. That will never ever change. Most LGBT couples recognize the importance of having strong male/female role models in their children's lives and will account for that. Families can be much more then a mom/mom or dad/dad...they can be an entire community. I'm sorry, but this is just an ignorant statement and I'm tired of this "we have to protection the children!" bullshit. Thousands of single mothers are raising children right now and we don't see anyone doing anything about that.
- the definition of marriage. im personally unsure how the definition of marriage can be changed. by that logic children will be tought in schools at a young age of marriage between both sexes, and 5 year olds will have to choose whether they will want to marry a man or a woman when they grow up. which seems a bit contradictory as most gay people say "being homosexual isnt a choice, we were born that way" which is fair enough, but they seem to want to create the choice.Gay people do not choose to be gay. A 5 year old will never HAVE to chose to marry a man or a woman when they grow older. They will become who they will become whether it be gay, straight, bi, queer, transgendered, whatever. All anyone is doing by teaching children that homosexuality and gay marriage is okay is encouraging tolerance and teaching them that these things are normal. They aren't out of the ordinary and that's how certain people live their lives. I'm sorry, but yet another very, very ignorant statement.
- perez then went onto compare the fact that black and whites werent allowed to marry to gay marriage bans. which when you think about it is the most stupid argument i have ever heard. an interacial couple isnt the same as a same sex couple. not even close. that was a law based on hate.Wow.....keeping gay marriage illegal is also a law based on hate. The entire opposition to homosexuality and gay marriage is based on hate and ignorance and nothing more. The African American civil rights movement is no different then the LGBT civil rights movement. We are fighting for equal rights under the law and nothing more. Discrimination is discrimination, I don't care how much or how little your people have suffered.
Also, don't take my statement as "ignorant" in a super negative manner. I don't mean it as an insult, I mean it in it's pure context and definition.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:30 PM
And for the record, Perez Hilton should NEVER be considered as a shining example of someone who is for LGBT rights. I'm sorry, but that man is a bigot in his own right. The fact that he used "f*ggot" to insult another human being makes any opinion of his completely null and void...
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:31 PM
And for the record, Perez Hilton should NEVER be considered as a shining example of someone who is for LGBT rights. I'm sorry, but that man is a bigot in his own right. The fact that he used "f*ggot" to insult another human being makes any opinion of his completely null and void...
lolwut
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:35 PM
lolwut
Oh, did you not hear about that? Did you hear about the whole Perez Hilton/will.i.am debacle? Yea, he called him a "f*ggot" because he wanted to (and I quote) "call him the most offensive thing I could think of."
I would agree with that. Above anything else the Bible talks about is the transformative love and Christ.
Funny. The OT comprises 2/3 of MY copy of the King James Bible, and IT mostly talks about how the Israelites need to mow down all opposition. I guess my copy isn't as current as yours.
I wouldn't call it a flaw so much as I would say it's wrong that people think that way about their walk with Christ. The Bible never told us to force our walk on everyone else so that's not something you can blame on Christianity.
Except for the verses talking about burning, separation, spreading the gospel, etc.
And I guarantee I can find someone who could argue that the Bible does in fact tell us to force our beliefs on others and they would have verses to back themselves up.
See above ^
i was blidnly open for gay marriage,
This is like saying I was blindly "open for interracial marriage". There's nothing blind about it.
the liberal stated their is something a man can give a child a woman cant as a parent, and visa versa. which is tottaly true. not to mention the predjudice the child would recieve at say school or sports.
Life is hard for many gradeschoolers. Marginalizing homosexual parents is not going to make it any easier on their children, which they WILL and DO have.
- the definition of marriage. im personally unsure how the definition of marriage can be changed. by that logic children will be tought in schools at a young age of marriage between both sexes, and 5 year olds will have to choose whether they will want to marry a man or a woman when they grow up. which seems a bit contradictory as most gay people say "being homosexual isnt a choice, we were born that way" which is fair enough, but they seem to want to create the choice.
Absolute baloney. When did YOU choose who you wanted to marry when you grew up? They don't want to "create the choice", they want to create an atmosphere of tolerance for all choices. There's a difference.
- perez then went onto compare the fact that black and whites werent allowed to marry to gay marriage bans. which when you think about it is the most stupid argument i have ever heard. an interacial couple isnt the same as a same sex couple. not even close. that was a law based on hate.
How is it "not even close"? Two consenting adults ought to be able to marry whoever they want. Isn't that freedom?
either way im on the fence at the minute, leaning towards gays have the same rights as the rest of the world, and as a society should be treated the same as everyone else, and allowed to be together. im just unsure whether the definition of marriage should be changed yet. i am prepared to hear more arguments.
"On the fence" is the biggest cop-out ever. Either you're a bigot, or you're not. Which is it?
Not only that, but she said it to fucking Perez Hilton. That's like me telling a black man that he shouldn't be allowed to drink from the same fountain that I drink from. Even if I believed it I wouldn't go there. Dangerous territory.
Hahah, this is very true. Lie your little face off when all else fails. And don't tell me she wanted to be "honest". If she wanted to be honest, she would have walked out in a swimsuit with the a-cups god gave her.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:41 PM
Oh, did you not hear about that? Did you hear about the whole Perez Hilton/will.i.am debacle? Yea, he called him a "f*ggot" because he wanted to (and I quote) "call him the most offensive thing I could think of."
Wait, what? What the hell is that about? What was going through his mind when he said this?
It seems like making him the face of the gay rights movement is a huge loss for the gay rights movement.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:41 PM
If she wanted to be honest, she would have walked out in a swimsuit with the a-cups god gave her.
ahahahahaha
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:43 PM
Wait, what? What the hell is that about? What was going through his mind when he said this?
It seems like making him the face of the gay rights movement is a huge loss for the gay rights movement.
I guess they were up in Toronto for something and got in a fight? The Black Eyed Peas' manager punched Perez in the face after he made those statements. I don't know how or why the fight started, but I suppose those are the most entertaining details.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:45 PM
Disgusting.
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:46 PM
Disgusting.
Yea, pretty much. That's the point that I unsubscribed from his blog in my RSS feeds and wanted nothing to do with him anymore. The Advocate had him on the cover of their latest issue and I'm half tempted to write them an angry email in protest.
He should not be an advocate for LGBT rights. He's a fucking despicable human being.
I feel the same about Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson...they've outlived their usefulness as banner carriers for racial tolerance. I think the black community should disown them.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:50 PM
I like reading the Advocate. I also like their support of the Mormon kiss-in (which incidentally sounds like the best way to protest ever).
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:50 PM
I feel the same about Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson...they've outlived their usefulness as banner carriers for racial tolerance. I think the black community should disown them.
4aLGkFpsdHo
Mercy Medical
07/22/09, 02:52 PM
I like reading the Advocate. I also like their support of the Mormon kiss-in (which incidentally sounds like the best way to protest ever).
I LOVE the idea of the Mormon kiss-in and how it's spreading. I hope it happens in more places then just Utah and SD. It's such a great non-violent way to get your point across and to really show how silly someone of this bullshit is.
Praetor
07/22/09, 02:53 PM
I LOVE the idea of the Mormon kiss-in and how it's spreading. I hope it happens in more places then just Utah and SD. It's such a great non-violent way to get your point across and to really show how silly someone of this bullshit is.
It's the perfect protest. Who could take issue with two loving people showing affection for one another? It's not holding a sign and shouting in someone's face, it's a statement of love. Who could get upset over that? Brilliant idea.
4aLGkFpsdHo
Haha, knew it was coming.
I LOVE the idea of the Mormon kiss-in and how it's spreading. I hope it happens in more places then just Utah and SD. It's such a great non-violent way to get your point across and to really show how silly someone of this bullshit is.
It's the perfect protest. Who could take issue with two loving people showing affection for one another? It's not holding a sign and shouting in someone's face, it's a statement of love. Who could get upset over that? Brilliant idea.
The odd part about this is that the church has cameras ALL OVER temple square. They could very easily substantiate their claims that the couple was engaged in "more than just an innocent kiss" and were in fact "groping". But, mysteriously enough, they haven't released the tapes. Curious.
I'd almost respect it more if they just came out and said, "Look, we're not gonna bullshit you...our security guards felt 'icky' about seeing two men kissing, so they asked them to leave."
She looks dumb enough to me.
So...you pretty much lost this one, huh?
The Personist
07/23/09, 11:24 PM
I declare victory.
/thread
I declare victory.
/thread:worship:
I have no idea how 200 more replies were milked out of this cow.
Prejean's an airhead. She's typifies the part of the conservative base that views logic as an obstacle and not an aid when it comes to drawing conclusions.
The Personist
07/24/09, 12:04 AM
I have no idea how 200 more replies were milked out of this cow.
Prejean's an airhead. She's typifies the part of the conservative base that views logic as an obstacle and not an aide in drawing a conclusion.
Jesus.
I have no idea how 200 more replies were milked out of this cow.
Prejean's an airhead. She's typifies the part of the conservative base that views logic as an obstacle and not an aid when it comes to drawing conclusions.
Oh, it actually turned out to be a very productive discussion.../sarcasm.
But agreed with you on all counts.
Jesus.
Christ almighty.
The Personist
07/24/09, 12:10 AM
Oh, it actually turned out to be a very productive discussion.../sarcasm.
But agreed with you on all counts.
Christ almighty.
Peter Doherty > this thread
Peter Doherty > this thread
This thread > Michael Jackson
The Personist
07/24/09, 12:13 AM
This thread > Michael Jackson
I like your transitive shenanigans. ;-)
I like your transitive shenanigans. ;-)
What can I say...I put shenanigans in transit.
The Personist
07/24/09, 12:16 AM
What can I say...I put shenanigans in transit.
JAck's Mannequin?
QuikTrig
07/24/09, 02:47 AM
when its all said and done, perez hilton is still the biggest loser of them all.
http://perezhilton.com/2009-06-22-my-statement
geez. really? if he actually acts like this, i'd punch him in the shnaz too. although i must say, it is one of the funniest videos i've seen in a longggg time.
vBulletin v3.6.0, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.