Is it possible to be racist against whites in the U.S.?

[GeeBee]

On the heels of the Gates controversy, I thought I'd ask. I haven't really come to a conclusion, but it's an interesting debate. Please keep Glenn Beck out of this thread.

[Machu505]

It isn't nearly as prevalent as white racism against blacks, Asians, Native Americans, Hispanics, Arabs, Jews, etc.

Though in speaking from personal experience, I have met numerous racist white people, but never any racist black people.

[GeeBee]

I guess it just seems to me that you can hate a white guy, but you can't oppress him the way minorities have been oppressed. So I guess the hate can be there, but there's little more you can do about it. That's certainly not the case when racism is directed at minorities. I think the Repubs whining about Sotomayor being "reverse-racist" is absolutely absurd, for instance, because white men have traditionally held all the power and influence in the world.

[Praetor]

On a personal level, certainly. On an institutional level, I am not aware of anything that exists in the framework of our government and of our society that discriminates against white people.

[GeeBee]

I guess that gets to the crux of my question better...does RACISM against whites automatically mean DISCRIMINATION against whites? Because it certainly does the other way around, historically and statistically speaking.

[Praetor]

I guess that gets to the crux of my question better...does RACISM against whites automatically mean DISCRIMINATION against whites? Because it certainly does the other way around, historically and statistically speaking.
Yeah, that's a really important distinction to make. And theoretically it's possible but I don't think that anything has happened yet to suggest it.

[Animalhill]

It isn't nearly as prevalent as white racism against blacks, Asians, Native Americans, Hispanics, Arabs, etc.

Though in speaking from personal experience, I have met numerous racist white people, but never any racist black people.
You left out Jews. M-(

[tcemoo]

Affirmative action says yes.

I've never wronged a person of any minority yet they all get advantages over me to get into colleges they don't necessarily deserve to be in, simply because they were lucky enough to be born of a descent other than caucasian. If we were still y'know, enslaving the black folks or sending the Asians to camps, then sure, maybe we should do something nice for them but that shit hasn't happened in years why should I, a white male, have to pay for that?

[Praetor]

Affirmative action says yes.
...yeah, you're done.

[Machu505]

You left out Jews. M-(
My apologies. I knew that I'd miss some, so that's why I put an "et cetera" at the end.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Yeah of course but I think lots of minority racism has more to do with resentment than white racism does.

[zonto]

Something else that I'd like to bring to the table that sort of applies:

So since I spent two years in Africa, I feel like I received a pretty detailed and honest look into the lives of actual "black" people. Seeing entire communities living in shacks made of corrugated steel, multiple power lines being draped into said structures from one pole, hearing languages with clicks in them, watching marriage and funeral rituals, etc... In South Africa, if you are an actual native, a member of a tribe like the Xhosa or Zulu people, then you are black. If you are dark-skinned, but technically come from a line where a white settler had children with a black African, you are referred to as "colored." They are two separate distinctions.

So then I come home and am thrust back into the world of "American black people." Hear me out. Obviously calling someone here "colored" is usually considered politically incorrect. Oftentimes black still is. So I get the same argument sometimes that black people expect to be called "African American" or some other politically correct term. That's bull crap in my opinion. Here's why:

A. How do I know you're African? What if you were Jamaican or [insert other non-African country here].

B. Have you ever been to Africa?

It really bugs me. By their same logic, then we should have tissy fits about being called white. I think it's racist if someone doesn't call me European American. Or perhaps more specifically: Danish American. It's a double standard and I think it's ridiculous, especially with how much the issue is made fun of in society now (gangsters, MTV, crunk, jive talk, etc...)

And technically, I'm more "African American" than a lot of these people that present these arguments to me. I've actually been there and experienced the lifestyle to a certain degree of the ancestors they default to in these situations.

/endslightrant

[Machu505]

Maybe actual black people should decide what they wish to be called themselves.

[paper halo]

Affirmative action says yes.

I've never wronged a person of any minority yet they all get advantages over me to get into colleges they don't necessarily deserve to be in, simply because they were lucky enough to be born of a descent other than caucasian. If we were still y'know, enslaving the black folks or sending the Asians to camps, then sure, maybe we should do something nice for them but that shit hasn't happened in years why should I, a white male, have to pay for that?

Oh dear....

[zion the lion]

Affirmative action says yes.

I've never wronged a person of any minority yet they all get advantages over me to get into colleges they don't necessarily deserve to be in, simply because they were lucky enough to be born of a descent other than caucasian. If we were still y'know, enslaving the black folks or sending the Asians to camps, then sure, maybe we should do something nice for them but that shit hasn't happened in years why should I, a white male, have to pay for that?

You do realize that affirmative action works in ways that help you too, right? In fact, it got quite a few of the white people at my moms old job hired...white men in fact.

As for the actual topic. Yes. I dont want to contribute to a massive generalization, but there are a few people out in the villages who are racist, because of what they feel white people did to them back when Alaska wasnt a state. Also, I went to a predominately black church for three or four years, and there were quite a few racist things comments and actions that flew under the radar.

[saysmydoctor]

Of course it is.

You don't think there a lot of bitter blacks, hispanics, etc. out there?

[zonto]

Affirmative action says yes.

I've never wronged a person of any minority yet they all get advantages over me to get into colleges they don't necessarily deserve to be in, simply because they were lucky enough to be born of a descent other than caucasian. If we were still y'know, enslaving the black folks or sending the Asians to camps, then sure, maybe we should do something nice for them but that shit hasn't happened in years why should I, a white male, have to pay for that?

Oh dear....

Don't oh dear him. It's a valid point.

Case in point: Nick Buckner.

Nick and I were both raised in West Jordan, Utah. We went to the same high school, took similar classes, were both white, decided to go to the same college, qualified for the same scholarships because of our index (GPA and ACT score,) yet he got more money than me...

ON THE EXACT SAME SCHOLARSHIP?!

1.5x the normal amount I received for the academic scholarship. Why? Because his mom was born in New Zealand. Now how is that fair? Do we have a monarchy and or practice the feudal system? Is his blood "better" than mine? No. It's just a stupid discrepancy in our system that exists because people keep whining about equality.

I'm tired of having kids from Saudi Arabia move into my apartment complex that have their entire existence paid for from foreign exchange types of scholarships that they receive even though they can't speak English and have to have me teach them how to use a washing machine. I wouldn't expect to be given that treatment in another country. It's ridiculous to think that my roommate will have a business degree from my school just like anyone else even though he doesn't contribute the same way as other students.

Although over time his English did improve, I will give him that. Though it was disturbing that some of the first English phrases I heard him yell on the phone were "I WANT PUSSY!" and "I WANT TO BONE!" amidst loud whistles. :shrug:

[GeeBee]

Of course it is.

You don't think there a lot of bitter blacks, hispanics, etc. out there?

But is it the same "racism" of which said blacks, hispanics, etc. fall victim to? Does it have the same results? Again, I'm making no assertions, just engendering discussion.

Don't oh dear him. It's a valid point.

Case in point: Nick Buckner.

Nick and I were both raised in West Jordan, Utah. We went to the same high school, took similar classes, were both white, decided to go to the same college, qualified for the same scholarships because of our index (GPA and ACT score,) yet he got more money than me...

ON THE EXACT SAME SCHOLARSHIP?!

1.5x the normal amount I received for the academic scholarship. Why? Because his mom was born in New Zealand. Now how is that fair? Do we have a monarchy and or practice the feudal system? Is his blood "better" than mine? No. It's just a stupid discrepancy in our system that exists because people keep whining about equality.

I'm tired of having kids from Saudi Arabian kids move into my apartment complex that have their entire existence paid for from foreign exchange types of scholarships that they receive even though they can't speak English and have to have me teach them how to use a washing machine. I wouldn't expect to be given that treatment in another country. It's ridiculous to think that my roommate will have a business degree from my school just like anyone else even though he doesn't contribute the same way as other students.

Although over time his English did improve, I will give him that. Though it was disturbing that some of the first English phrases I heard him yell on the phone were "I WANT PUSSY!" and "I WANT TO BONE!" amidst loud whistles. :shrug:

Equality of opportunity. You as a caucasian male will enjoy more opportunity, historically and statistically speaking, than counterparts your age. I don't necessarily agree with affirmative action, but I am a proponent of leveling the playing field for all races/ethnicities/orienations in the U.S. Typically, the white man has had very little to complain about.

[GeeBee]

Affirmative action says yes.

I've never wronged a person of any minority yet they all get advantages over me to get into colleges they don't necessarily deserve to be in, simply because they were lucky enough to be born of a descent other than caucasian. If we were still y'know, enslaving the black folks or sending the Asians to camps, then sure, maybe we should do something nice for them but that shit hasn't happened in years why should I, a white male, have to pay for that?

Why should a black male in the South have to pay for the fact that his race has been installed as a permanent underclass as a RESULT of slavery and Jim Crow? The cycle of poverty takes many generations to dig out of, and not too many have passed since the civil rights movement.

On an unrelated note, you're extremely ignorant for calling anyone "lucky" that wasn't born a caucasian.

[thespearkid]

Affirmative action says yes.

I've never wronged a person of any minority yet they all get advantages over me to get into colleges they don't necessarily deserve to be in, simply because they were lucky enough to be born of a descent other than caucasian. If we were still y'know, enslaving the black folks or sending the Asians to camps, then sure, maybe we should do something nice for them but that shit hasn't happened in years why should I, a white male, have to pay for that?
Jesus Christ, dude.

Do you really think african-americans have an ADVANTAGE when it comes to getting into college? Only one of of every eleven black males goes to college. Yeah, real fucking lucky. Don't you understand that Jim Crow was only 50 or so years ago? We are only two generations removed from it and blacks are still feeling the ramifications of a system that was designed to fuck us over. Without affirmative action, I wouldn't have gotten my scholarship and I wouldn't have been able to afford college. Why? Because my parents are poor because their parents couldn't afford to send them to college. It's a cycle that HAS to be broken if minorities (specifically blacks) are going to be prosperous and, in case you don't realize this, blacks becoming prosperous is good for EVERYONE, not just us.

But yeah, kiss my black ass.

[batmannj]

I definitely think that it's possible to be racist towards whites in the U.S. It just doesn't get as much attention.

[GeeBee]

Jesus Christ, dude.

Do you really think african-americans have an ADVANTAGE when it comes to getting into college? Only one of of every eleven black males goes to college. Yeah, real fucking lucky. Don't you understand that Jim Crow was only 50 or so years ago? We are only two generations removed from it and blacks are still feeling the ramifications of a system that was designed to fuck us over. Without affirmative action, I wouldn't have gotten my scholarship and I wouldn't have been able to afford college. Why? Because my parents are poor because their parents couldn't afford to send them to college. It's a cycle that HAS to be broken if minorities (specifically blacks) are going to be prosperous and, in case you don't realize this, blacks becoming prosperous is good for EVERYONE, not just us.

But yeah, kiss my black ass.

Haha. Finally Spearkid and I agree.

[saysmydoctor]

But is it the same "racism" of which said blacks, hispanics, etc. fall victim to? Does it have the same results? Again, I'm making no assertions, just engendering discussion.
Oh, of course it's not the same. There are far more whites in power then blacks and hispanics and blacks and hispanics are held more accountable for their actions than whites. The power structure still does favor whites, so the results definitely aren't the same.

[GeeBee]

Oh, of course it's not the same. There are far more whites in power then blacks and hispanics and blacks and hispanics are held more accountable for their actions than whites. The power structure still does favor whites, so the results definitely aren't the same.

I guess it's more of a linguistic question. Can the term "racism" as we generally use it apply when it originates at the bottom of the power structure and is directed upward?

[saysmydoctor]

That's rankism, the mother of all -isms.

[TK]

Unless somehow I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "racist", definitely.

[Love As Arson]

Yes,it is possible;however,the power structure is oriented towards white males,so that can cause more damage.The real devastating effect of racism is preventing each of us from struggling to achieve something better.

[bung]

I grew up in a relatively small town of about 18k.

"Since 1990, the rural town has experienced a large influx of immigrants from Latin America and Northeast Africa, mostly due to the demand for labor at the Jennie-O poultry plant. In 2005, the city was recognized as an "All America City" by the National Civic League, in part for its success as growing numbers of immigrants became part of the community." - Wikipedia

And yeah, it goes both ways. I've heard "fuckin' cracker" and "fuckin' spic." about equally. I mean, shit, I remember in recess we would play soccer or football and the teams would be "whites against the Mexicans."

[QuikTrig]

bring it on...save the last dance...etc.

[tcemoo]

Jesus Christ, dude.

Do you really think african-americans have an ADVANTAGE when it comes to getting into college? Only one of of every eleven black males goes to college. Yeah, real fucking lucky. Don't you understand that Jim Crow was only 50 or so years ago? We are only two generations removed from it and blacks are still feeling the ramifications of a system that was designed to fuck us over. Without affirmative action, I wouldn't have gotten my scholarship and I wouldn't have been able to afford college. Why? Because my parents are poor because their parents couldn't afford to send them to college. It's a cycle that HAS to be broken if minorities (specifically blacks) are going to be prosperous and, in case you don't realize this, blacks becoming prosperous is good for EVERYONE, not just us.

But yeah, kiss my black ass.

My great-grandparents were immigrants from eastern Europe. Hard working people, but not wealthiest in the least. In fact, they couldn't afford to educate my grandparents. Because of this, they couldn't afford to educate my parents, who in turn can't afford to educate their children. Now, as I'm attempting to struggle my way through college (have you ever worked 50+ hours a week while attending college full time? I've had to because nobody is willing to aid me financially), and I can't score aid from anyone to save my life.

Now tell me this, how on Earth is that fair? If I were born with a different skin tone, I could get by much easier off than what I have to do just to attempt to better myself in white version of the same cycle your family has endured.

So you can act like just because your people were enslaved and mine weren't that you face completely different struggles than me, but our situation isn't exactly that far off.

Now how about stepping the fuck off your high horse?

[tcemoo]

Why should a black male in the South have to pay for the fact that his race has been installed as a permanent underclass as a RESULT of slavery and Jim Crow? The cycle of poverty takes many generations to dig out of, and not too many have passed since the civil rights movement.

On an unrelated note, you're extremely ignorant for calling anyone "lucky" that wasn't born a caucasian.

Tell that to every kid of any minority who gets grants and scholarships for college when maybe there's students who work harder of the majority who probably deserve the money more than they do.

Or tell that to any person of a minority (women included) who open a business and get all sorts of money from the government.

Look, just because I'm a white male doesn't mean I'm equally well-off to the people who have trust funds from mommy and daddy or can stride their way through all 7 years of college to get their communications degree just because their parents can afford it.

[zion the lion]

My great-grandparents were immigrants from eastern Europe. Hard working people, but not wealthiest in the least. In fact, they couldn't afford to educate my grandparents. Because of this, they couldn't afford to educate my parents, who in turn can't afford to educate their children. Now, as I'm attempting to struggle my way through college (have you ever worked 50+ hours a week while attending college full time? I've had to because nobody is willing to aid me financially), and I can't score aid from anyone to save my life.

Now tell me this, how on Earth is that fair? If I were born with a different skin tone, I could get by much easier off than what I have to do just to attempt to better myself in white version of the same cycle your family has endured.

So you can act like just because your people were enslaved and mine weren't that you face completely different struggles than me, but our situation isn't exactly that far off.

Now how about stepping the fuck off your high horse?

If you have actually looked into big big world of scholarships, you would know that there is one for just about everybody (if not multiple scholarships). It is actually impossible to have absolutely no financial aid for the cost of college. The biggest one I can think of is the army. Now if you didnt get any scholarships, its probably because you were above the income bracket that they help. There's no reason to blame any minority for that.

[thespearkid]

My great-grandparents were immigrants from eastern Europe. Hard working people, but not wealthiest in the least. In fact, they couldn't afford to educate my grandparents. Because of this, they couldn't afford to educate my parents, who in turn can't afford to educate their children. Now, as I'm attempting to struggle my way through college (have you ever worked 50+ hours a week while attending college full time? I've had to because nobody is willing to aid me financially), and I can't score aid from anyone to save my life.

Now tell me this, how on Earth is that fair? If I were born with a different skin tone, I could get by much easier off than what I have to do just to attempt to better myself in white version of the same cycle your family has endured.

So you can act like just because your people were enslaved and mine weren't that you face completely different struggles than me, but our situation isn't exactly that far off.

Now how about stepping the fuck off your high horse?
Dude, if you can't find aid, it's not because minorites are taking it away from you. There is a ridiculous amount of aid money out there for all kinds of people and only a small percentage of it goes towards minorites. Look up the facts. Most black people never even go to college to how on Earth are minorities taking scholarship money away from you? I'm perplexed as to why you believe a hard working african-american student with no other way to pay for college shouldn't be given aid. If you can't find scholarship money, you either have not looked hard enough, or perhaps all those black kids who are "stealing" your scholarship money just have better grades than you.

[bung]

Jesus Christ, dude.

Do you really think african-americans have an ADVANTAGE when it comes to getting into college? Only one of of every eleven black males goes to college. Yeah, real fucking lucky. Don't you understand that Jim Crow was only 50 or so years ago? We are only two generations removed from it and blacks are still feeling the ramifications of a system that was designed to fuck us over. Without affirmative action, I wouldn't have gotten my scholarship and I wouldn't have been able to afford college. Why? Because my parents are poor because their parents couldn't afford to send them to college. It's a cycle that HAS to be broken if minorities (specifically blacks) are going to be prosperous and, in case you don't realize this, blacks becoming prosperous is good for EVERYONE, not just us.

But yeah, kiss my black ass.

The problem with this statement is that it is basing affirmative action on poverty, when the basis of affirmative action (generally) is race. Yes, affirmative action is meant to somewhat help combat poverty, but it's ultimately an implementation for race.

If a white person grew up in the same neighborhood as you, and their parents had an income equal to your parents, and you both had virtually similar academic achievements, you WILL have an advantage in getting scholarships and being accepted to colleges, all for the simple fact that your skin color happens to be darker than his.

That's bullshit.

[thespearkid]

The problem with this statement is that it is basing affirmative action on poverty, when the basis of affirmative action (generally) is race. Yes, affirmative action is meant to somewhat help combat poverty, but it's ultimately an implementation for race.

If a white person grew up in the same neighborhood as you, and their parents had an income equal to your parents, and you both had virtually similar academic achievements, you WILL have an advantage in getting scholarships and being accepted to colleges, all for the simple fact that your skin color happens to be darker than his.

That's bullshit.
that only makes sense if both of us only apply to one college and it's the same one. affirmative action sets a certain percentage of minorities for each school. if my neighbor and i both apply to four colleges, odds are, he'll beat me out 3 out of those 4 times.

[bung]

that only makes sense if both of us only apply to one college and it's the same one.

So you agree then that, in such a case, it would be wrong for you to be given immediate preference because of your skin color?

affirmative action sets a certain percentage of minorities for each school.

It also, oftentimes, gives more points to minorities when they complete their applications.

if my neighbor and i both apply to four colleges, odds are, he'll beat me out 3 out of those 4 times.

If they're public schools, and you guys are equal in all other areas except skin color, this statement is completely and utterly wrong.

[thespearkid]

So you agree then that, in such a case, it would be wrong for you to be given immediate preference because of your skin color?
it's not preference. that's not how affirmative action works.

It also, oftentimes, gives more points to minorities when they complete their applications.
considering how few blacks actually apply to college, i'd say this is fair.

If they're public schools, and you guys are equal in all other areas except skin color, this statement is completely and utterly wrong.
i compete with other african-americans for scholarships and spots in college. there are way more spots available for my neighbor than there are for me. if he and i truly have the same qualifications, his chances of getting into the school are way higher than mine.

[Theseventhson]

My great-grandparents were immigrants from eastern Europe. Hard working people, but not wealthiest in the least. In fact, they couldn't afford to educate my grandparents. Because of this, they couldn't afford to educate my parents, who in turn can't afford to educate their children. Now, as I'm attempting to struggle my way through college (have you ever worked 50+ hours a week while attending college full time? I've had to because nobody is willing to aid me financially), and I can't score aid from anyone to save my life.

Now tell me this, how on Earth is that fair? If I were born with a different skin tone, I could get by much easier off than what I have to do just to attempt to better myself in white version of the same cycle your family has endured.

So you can act like just because your people were enslaved and mine weren't that you face completely different struggles than me, but our situation isn't exactly that far off.

Now how about stepping the fuck off your high horse?
You don't seem to understand too much.

[bung]

it's not preference. that's not how affirmative action works.

In theory, no. In practice, yes.


considering how few blacks actually apply to college, i'd say this is fair.

This makes absolutely no sense. If we use this logic, men should be given preferential treatment over women, because more women currently apply to college than men.


i compete with other african-americans for scholarships and spots in college. there are way more spots available for my neighbor than there are for me. if he and i truly have the same qualifications, his chances of getting into the school are way higher than mine.

Spots? As if a college is like, "Oops, we already have 1000 black kids. No more." It's not like the certain percentage that is allocated for minorities is the maximum, and once that's met the school doesn't let in any more minorities. That's not how it works.

I fail to see why gender, race, sex, sexual orientation, political orientation, or religious orientation should ever be used in selecting college candidates.

[thespearkid]

In theory, no. In practice, yes.
it's not a preference because the minority kids are competing with each other for the spots.

This makes absolutely no sense. If we use this logic, men should be given preferential treatment over women, because more women currently apply to college than men.
they are.


Spots? As if a college is like, "Oops, we already have 1000 black kids. No more." It's not like the certain percentage that is allocated for minorities is the maximum, and once that's met the school doesn't let in any more minorities. That's not how it works.
in theory but not in practice. welcome to the South, my friend.

I fail to see why gender, race, sex, sexual orientation, political orientation, or religious orientation should ever be used in selecting college candidates.
because blacks have had a weight attached around our ankles for 400 years. it's only recently being released. we're behind. it'd take another 400 years before we'd be prosperous as a race again if it weren't for programs like affirmative action helping. affirmative action is an investment in a race. when it pays off, we'll all benefit.

[bung]

it's not a preference because the minority kids are competing with each other for the spots.

Again, they shouldn't be. It shouldn't be minorities against minorities and whites against whites. If race wasn't an option on college applications, this wouldn't even be a factor.


they are.

In the college selection process? Umm... no. More women than men are currently enrolled in college today, you do realize that, right?



in theory but not in practice. welcome to the South, my friend.

Again, problem eliminated if race isn't used in the selection process.


because blacks have had a weight attached around our ankles for 400 years. it's only recently being released. we're behind. it'd take another 400 years before we'd be prosperous as a race again if it weren't for programs like affirmative action helping. affirmative action is an investment in a race. when it pays off, we'll all benefit.

Affirmative action applies to all races, not just African Americans.

[Aether]

Oh, of course it's not the same. There are far more whites in power then blacks and hispanics and blacks and hispanics are held more accountable for their actions than whites. The power structure still does favor whites, so the results definitely aren't the same.

How exactly are they held more accountable for their actions than whites? Just curious.

[TK]

I still don't understand why affirmative action isn't based on social economics.

[saysmydoctor]

How exactly are they held more accountable for their actions than whites? Just curious.
Seriously?

Look at the incarceration rates, the conviction rates of blacks over whites?

[theguy77]

dude, you're probably more likely to find a black guy who hates white people than a white guy who hates black people. its a prevalent attitude in inner city minority communities.

[yves.]

Jesus Christ, dude.

Do you really think african-americans have an ADVANTAGE when it comes to getting into college? Only one of of every eleven black males goes to college. Yeah, real fucking lucky. Don't you understand that Jim Crow was only 50 or so years ago? We are only two generations removed from it and blacks are still feeling the ramifications of a system that was designed to fuck us over. Without affirmative action, I wouldn't have gotten my scholarship and I wouldn't have been able to afford college. Why? Because my parents are poor because their parents couldn't afford to send them to college. It's a cycle that HAS to be broken if minorities (specifically blacks) are going to be prosperous and, in case you don't realize this, blacks becoming prosperous is good for EVERYONE, not just us.

But yeah, kiss my black ass.

this just reminded me that in the last election, nebraskans voted to remove affirmative action. how progressive. :rolleyes:

back to the thread topic, it's possible for other races to resent whites but there really isn't any way for them to actively deny white peoples' rights or really try to fuck them over as much as whites can do it to other races (see: taking out loans, making any big purchases, wages, etc).

[Machu505]

dude, you're probably more likely to find a black guy who hates white people than a white guy who hates black people. its a prevalent attitude in inner city minority communities.
Maybe in the inner city, but out in the back country and smaller towns it's exactly the opposite.

[GeeBee]

Tell that to every kid of any minority who gets grants and scholarships for college when maybe there's students who work harder of the majority who probably deserve the money more than they do.

Or tell that to any person of a minority (women included) who open a business and get all sorts of money from the government.

Look, just because I'm a white male doesn't mean I'm equally well-off to the people who have trust funds from mommy and daddy or can stride their way through all 7 years of college to get their communications degree just because their parents can afford it.

Who the fuck are you to decide who "deserves" something?
You're obviously dismally ignorant of just how MUCH you automatically get by virtue of the fact that you're a white male in this country.

[xsonorax]

is it possible to be white and racist against white people? ;-)

[theguy77]

Maybe in the inner city, but out in the back country and smaller towns it's exactly the opposite.

but a larger percentage of america's minority population is concentrated in those inner city communities, and due to the prolonged effects of white flight in the '50s, its a lot less likely for them to be integrated into society, and therefore less likely for that attitude to be diminished as long as this country stays the way it is. while white-on-black racism is still a part of society (though in a more subtle way), regardless of any steps taken to eliminate racist behaviors in america, the black community at least (not necessarily the hispanic or asian community -- their situation is entirely different) is going to remain convinced that the white man is keeping them down for as long as the wretched infrastructure of those inner city areas remains in that state.

[John is a cult]

dude, you're probably more likely to find a black guy who hates white people than a white guy who hates black people. its a prevalent attitude in inner city minority communities.

i would have to absolutely agree with this statement.
i live in Connecticut half of the year
and in Jacksonville, FL the other half.
and this is true in both states.

also, i thought we would aim for equality in this country?
affirmative action does not = equality.
if we omitted race from college applications/ job applications, that would be equality.
the fact that race is even considered.. is ridiculous.

[bung]

how progressive. :rolleyes:


Many countries considered "progressive," Sweden for example, have outlawed affirmative action on the basis that it does not treat all races equally.

[thespearkid]

Many countries considered "progressive," Sweden for example, have outlawed affirmative action on the basis that it does not treat all races equally.
what works there wouldn't work here because race relations in America are different.

[Machu505]

what works there wouldn't work here because race relations in America are different.
This. If a long history of segregation and slavery had plagued Sweden's minorities to this day, it would be a different story.

[bung]

what works there wouldn't work here because race relations in America are different.

Next time you bring up socialism, I'm going to say, "What works there wouldn't work here because politics are different in America."

Even if race relations are different, I'm going stand my ground and say I do not support affirmative action because it doesn't treat all races equally.

[thespearkid]

Next time you bring up socialism, I'm going to say, "What works there wouldn't work here because politics are different in America."

Even if race relations are different, I'm going stand my ground and say I do not support affirmative action because it doesn't treat all races equally.
suppose you were in a race with 10 other people. when the start gun is fired, you realize there is a weight attached to your ankle. the race continues without you. you finally convince the judge that it's unfair for you to have a weight around your ankle so he takes it off and says, "now, catch up to everyone else. it's totally fair now."

how is that fair? all affirmative action is doing is giving minorites a chance to catch up.

[theguy77]

i would have to absolutely agree with this statement.
i live in Connecticut half of the year
and in Jacksonville, FL the other half.
and this is true in both states.

also, i thought we would aim for equality in this country?
affirmative action does not = equality.
if we omitted race from college applications/ job applications, that would be equality.
the fact that race is even considered.. is ridiculous.

well man, its not equality because there are a lot of lasting effects from the limitations this country previously imposed on people of separate races. minorities without affirmative action are still at a disadvantage to go to college. part of the reason is becuase in these inner city neighborhoods i keep talking about, the schooling is actually very poor, and the environment is not conducive to proper education. the reason is because of white flight:

back in the '50s, when all the public areas in society were desegregated, most of the whites moved out of the cities to avoid having to integrate with other races. the problem with this was, since equal opportunity in the workforce didnt exist back then, the whites held all of the occupations that kept the infrastructure of the area under proper maintenance. the police force, the regional healthcare and education, and miscellaneous home and regional maintenance businesses were all worked by white people. so when they migrated to suburbs to avoid segregation, it all fell apart, and these once vibrant city regions turned into slums with little to no police protection (leading to gang violence) and improper standards of schooling and health. these areas are STILL like that today with no signs of recovery because its simply too dangerous for working professionals to go back and renovate these inner city areas. as a result, the remaining minorities who live there through generations of poor education, amidst the influence of rampant drug abuse and gang violence, are unable to even consider college or adequate employment to establish a better lifestyle for themselves. and their parents definitely cant afford to put them through nor are they even usually encouraging their kids to go to college and get a professional job, because of the bitterness and interracial tension that comes from growing up at in such poor conditions compared to the mostly-white middle class ameirca.

[nikaidoh]

My great-grandparents were immigrants from eastern Europe. Hard working people, but not wealthiest in the least. In fact, they couldn't afford to educate my grandparents. Because of this, they couldn't afford to educate my parents, who in turn can't afford to educate their children. Now, as I'm attempting to struggle my way through college (have you ever worked 50+ hours a week while attending college full time? I've had to because nobody is willing to aid me financially), and I can't score aid from anyone to save my life.

Now tell me this, how on Earth is that fair? If I were born with a different skin tone, I could get by much easier off than what I have to do just to attempt to better myself in white version of the same cycle your family has endured.

So you can act like just because your people were enslaved and mine weren't that you face completely different struggles than me, but our situation isn't exactly that far off.

Now how about stepping the fuck off your high horse?


You completely missed the point of his comment. He wasn't trying to say that black people have had more struggles than anybody else in America, he's just trying to explain to you how, in his personal experience, Affirmative Action isn't completely unfair in regards to it's aid to African Americans. He's not saying that nobody else deserves help, he's just saying why he needs help.

Of course it's not fair, no system is fair; Democracy isn't (I'd love to debate with you or anybody else on that one), Welfare isn't, Schools aren't... Still, revoking the system entirely isn't how you solve the problem. Of course (certain) white people have had about as much struggles as African Americans, Hispanics, etc. But that doesn't mean that we should not allow anyone to get help just because some people don't, or don't get enough. It's just not effective.

Now, how about you just chill out and look at both sides of the argument.

[deFobbed14yrs]

Oh dear....

my thoughts exactly

[nikaidoh]

suppose you were in a race with 10 other people. when the start gun is fired, you realize there is a weight attached to your ankle. the race continues without you. you finally convince the judge that it's unfair for you to have a weight around your ankle so he takes it off and says, "now, catch up to everyone else. it's totally fair now."

how is that fair? all affirmative action is doing is giving minorites a chance to catch up.


This. totally.

[John is a cult]

well man, its not equality because there are a lot of lasting effects from the limitations this country previously imposed on people of separate races. minorities without affirmative action are still at a disadvantage to go to college. part of the reason is becuase in these inner city neighborhoods i keep talking about, the schooling is actually very poor, and the environment is not conducive to proper education. the reason is because of white flight:

back in the '50s, when all the public areas in society were desegregated, most of the whites moved out of the cities to avoid having to integrate with other races. the problem with this was, since equal opportunity in the workforce didnt exist back then, the whites held all of the occupations that kept the infrastructure of the area under proper maintenance. the police force, the regional healthcare and education, and miscellaneous home and regional maintenance businesses were all worked by white people. so when they migrated to suburbs to avoid segregation, it all fell apart, and these once vibrant city regions turned into slums with little to no police protection (leading to gang violence) and improper standards of schooling and health. these areas are STILL like that today with no signs of recovery because its simply too dangerous for working professionals to go back and renovate these inner city areas. as a result, the remaining minorities who live there through generations of poor education, amidst the influence of rampant drug abuse and gang violence, are unable to even consider college or adequate employment to establish a better lifestyle for themselves.

ok.. i understand all of this however, that doesn't justify a system that favors one person because of their skin.
there are african americans who are well off, who are benefiting from affirmative action and poor white people who are getting screwed.
that is why i believe that race shouldn't be considered, but from income, location, and other factors that would be FAIR to everyone.
i just feel like the current system isn't fair to underprivileged white students. (yes, those exist)
i don't know what the best way to go about it is, i just know that basing it purely off of race isn't fair.

[bung]

suppose you were in a race with 10 other people. when the start gun is fired, you realize there is a weight attached to your ankle. the race continues without you. you finally convince the judge that it's unfair for you to have a weight around your ankle so he takes it off and says, "now, catch up to everyone else. it's totally fair now."

how is that fair? all affirmative action is doing is giving minorites a chance to catch up.

Affirmative action applies to all minority races. Are you making the assumption that every minority is behind in the race? What does it entail to "catch up?" Make money? Affirmative action applies to minorities regardless of their socio-economic status.

If you want a cure for racism, it's sure as shit not going to be in affirmative action.

[thespearkid]

Affirmative action applies to all minority races. Are you making the assumption that every minority is behind in the race? What does it entail to "catch up?" Make money? Affirmative action applies to minorities regardless of their socio-economic status.

If you want a cure for racism, it's sure as shit not going to be in affirmative action.
i'm making the claim that white citizens hold 90% of the power and wealth in this country.

i'm not talking about a cure for racism. i'm talking about a cure for the ridiculous economic gap between whites and minorities.

[theguy77]

ok.. i understand all of this however, that doesn't justify a system that favors one person because of their skin.
there are african americans who are well off, who are benefiting from affirmative action and poor white people who are getting screwed.
that is why i believe that race shouldn't be considered, but from income, location, and other factors that would be FAIR to everyone.
i just feel like the current system isn't fair to underprivileged white students. (yes, those exist)
i don't know what the best way to go about it is, i just know that basing it purely off of race isn't fair.

yes, but a larger percentage of minorities are underpriveleged than whites. affirmative action is intended to correct that. of course theres plenty of overlap and it doesnt properly apply in EVERY circumstance, government cant possibly look at every individual situation and correct it comprehensively; theres too many complexities and grey area involved with that. affirmative action is intended to correct the OVERALL problem, and not specifically favor every black person over every white person.

[John is a cult]

yes, but a larger percentage of minorities are underpriveleged than whites. affirmative action is intended to correct that. of course theres plenty of overlap and it doesnt properly apply in EVERY circumstance, government cant possibly look at every individual situation and correct it comprehensively; theres too many complexities and grey area involved with that. affirmative action is intended to correct the OVERALL problem, and not specifically favor every black person over every white person.

i understand, i obviously don't have a better solution.
But, either way, it just sucks that people just can't put everything behind them.
it gets annoying.. lol

[bung]

i'm making the claim that white citizens hold 90% of the power and wealth in this country.

i'm not talking about a cure for racism. i'm talking about a cure for the ridiculous economic gap between whites and minorities.

The economic gap is a result of racism. Affirmative action will help out some minorities in the short run, sure. But you know what affirmative action is doing right now? It's perpetuating animosity toward minorities. It's not helping.

[theguy77]

i understand, i obviously don't have a better solution.
But, either way, it just sucks that people just can't put everything behind them.
it gets annoying.. lol

yeah, thats one of the main problems with america really. progress is a slow process, especially when we have 535 state representatives and a whoooole lot of red tape to push every single bill through. and then thats not even all of it, once you get the law right then you have to correct the mindset of the society, which can sometimes take decades.

[J.C.]

The affirmative action whiners need to get over themselves. Bitching about minorities getting a shot at a higher education is stupid when you'd likely be in their exact position if you weren't white and didn't have access to resources/tools that are inherent in our system. I agree it shouldn't be strictly race-related(I think it's more of a socio-economic issue), but to pretend it gets abused by people who have no business getting in to certain schools is simply not true. The fact is if you're white and have put together a good transcript, you won't have any issue getting into a good school. It's as simple as that.

dude, you're probably more likely to find a black guy who hates white people than a white guy who hates black people.

Just numerically speaking that's silly. Do you have any idea how many more white people there are than black people?

Ignoring the statistical part of it, I think it'd be incorrect with all things else being equal. For one thing, most I know who have a problem with white people view whites in different groups. They're more likely to only hate certain whites. They don't get all lumped in together. White racism is more likely to put everyone in the same box.

[theguy77]

The affirmative action whiners need to get over themselves. Bitching about minorities getting a shot at a higher education is stupid when you'd likely be in their exact position if you weren't white and didn't have access to resources/tools that are inherent in our system. I agree it shouldn't be strictly race-related(I think it's more of a socio-economic issue), but to pretend it gets abused by people who have no business getting in to certain schools is simply not true. The fact is if you're white and have put together a good transcript, you won't have any issue getting into a good school. It's as simple as that.

Just numerically speaking that's silly. Do you have any idea how many more white people there are than black people?

Ignoring the statistical part of it, I think it'd be incorrect with all things else being equal. For one thing, most I know who have a problem with white people view whites in different groups. They don't get all lumped in together. White racism is more likely to put everyone in the same box.

i was saying, if you pooled all the black people together, and all the white people togehter, a higher percentage of the black people would view white people negatively, not that there are more racist black people than racist white people. now, most of the white people may have negative connotations and stereotypes that they associate to black people, most notably that they think they're more likely to break the law, or that they're more violent, but as far as blatant full-on racism i think you'd be surprised to see just how anti-white a lot of even middle class black communities can be.

[deFobbed14yrs]

The economic gap is a result of racism. Affirmative action will help out some minorities in the short run, sure. But you know what affirmative action is doing right now? It's perpetuating animosity toward minorities. It's not helping.


I agree to a point. I'm Indian, but i feel that AA wasn't used for me b/c i feel that i'm above average with my grades and such. You said before that AA helps all minorities. I would disagree with that statement. I feel that it only helps African Americans. Asians are typically smarter no offense, b/c we have been raised with an emphasis on education and don't need help to get into college. But i think you're wrong when you say it'll hepl some minorities in the short run. With every minority that recieves an education, they will become an inspiration to other kids of their race, which i beleive will cause minorites that never really had an emphasis on education to try harder in school, and make AA useless b/c minoirtes will score above average grades and be able to get into college without help from AA b/c they're smarter than a white person.

[thespearkid]

dude, you're probably more likely to find a black guy who hates white people than a white guy who hates black people. its a prevalent attitude in inner city minority communities.
i think there's a difference between hate spawned from racism and hate spawned from bitterness. not to say one is better or more acceptable than the other.

[J.C.]

i was saying, if you pooled all the black people together, and all the white people togehter, a higher percentage of the black people would view white people negatively.

That's a broad generic question that doesn't take into account the point I just made(that blacks view whites in separate groups, not lumped together). Viewing whites as a whole negatively =/= hating all whites.

If you phrased the question the way you just did, I'd agree, but mainly that's because blacks(as minorities) have less say in the system and thus more of a reason to be angry at it(and those who are perceived to run the system, which are the whites). And I don't view complaining about the power structure as racism.

now, most of the white people may have negative connotations and stereotypes that they associate to black people, most notably that they think they're more likely to break the law, or that they're more violent, but as far as blatant full-on racism i think you'd be surprised to see just how anti-white a lot of even middle class black communities can be.

There's mocking of each other that goes on in both sides. And as someone who has a few racists in his family, I can tell you it delves a lot deeper than that shallow stereotype stuff. That's child's play.

[theguy77]

That's a broad generic question that doesn't take into account the point I just made(that blacks view whites in separate groups, not lumped together). Viewing whites as a whole negatively =/= hating all whites.

yeah, but viewing whites as a whole negatively still constitutes racism to me to an extent.

If you phrased the question the way you just did, I'd agree, but mainly that's because blacks(as minorities) have less say in the system and thus more of a reason to be angry at it(and those who are perceived to run the system, which are the whites). And I don't view complaining about the power structure as racism.

thats true.

There's mocking of each other that goes on in both sides. And as someone who has a few racists in his family, I can tell you it delves a lot deeper than that shallow stereotype stuff. That's child's play.

no i know that, what i was saying is those stereotypes are shared among nearly the entire white community, but full-on racism is just a percentage of them.

[Animalhill]

My apologies. I knew that I'd miss some, so that's why I put an "et cetera" at the end.
haha I was kind of just kidding around man.

[diehtc0ke]

i was saying, if you pooled all the black people together, and all the white people togehter, a higher percentage of the black people would view white people negatively, not that there are more racist black people than racist white people. now, most of the white people may have negative connotations and stereotypes that they associate to black people, most notably that they think they're more likely to break the law, or that they're more violent, but as far as blatant full-on racism i think you'd be surprised to see just how anti-white a lot of even middle class black communities can be.
Just because you happen to be black and middle class does not mean you cannot, do not, or have not become a victim of racism. It shouldn't be surprising that anti-white sentiments can still be found in those communities; those people can't stay sitting in those neighborhoods forever. They have jobs in other areas, shop in other areas, hang out in other areas, etc.

The original question is dubious at best because I think racism is one of those terms that isn't clearly defined and everyone (especially among those who haven't actively studied how it affects the American social structure) has a different understanding of what it means and how it operates. I don't think minorities can be "racist" against white people on any level beyond the individual because they do not have the social capital necessary to oppress whites in most instances (maybe a white person won't get to be a city council member in a mostly black neighborhood because of his race but that's pittance when compared to how race relations have worked in the other direction).

[imtherealdave]

I live in an area that is majority black and I see racism against whites EVERY day. Racism exists in every group but it seems to be more prevalent in blacks because they rationalize it with this type of "they owe us" mentality. The notion that people cannot be racist against whites is ludicrous and only perpetuates the problem.



The original question is dubious at best because I think racism is one of those terms that isn't clearly defined and everyone (especially among those who haven't actively studied how it affects the American social structure) has a different understanding of what it means and how it operates. I don't think minorities can be "racist" against white people on any level beyond the individual because they do not have the social capital necessary to oppress whites in most instances (maybe a white person won't get to be a city council member in a mostly black neighborhood because of his race but that's pittance when compared to how race relations have worked in the other direction).

This is just silly. I have a white friend who was recently declined for a job despite being highly qualified. On the way out, she was told by a secretary, "I'm sorry but you're just the wrong color". That sort of thing happens here all of the time and it has nothing to do with affirmative action. It just has to do with the fact that the supervisor is black and likes to hire other black people.

[diehtc0ke]

I live in an area that is majority black and I see racism against whites EVERY day. Racism exists in every group but it seems to be more prevalent in blacks because they rationalize it with this type of "they owe us" mentality. The notion that people cannot be racist against whites is ludicrous and only perpetuates the problem.



This is just silly. I have a white friend who was recently declined for a job despite being highly qualified. On the way out, she was told by a secretary, "I'm sorry but you're just the wrong color". That sort of thing happens here all of the time and it has nothing to do with affirmative action. It just has to do with the fact that the supervisor is black and likes to hire other black people.
One cited case in the "Middle of Nowhere" still equals pittance and not institutionalized.

[alcoholandirony]

Affirmative action says yes.

I've never wronged a person of any minority yet they all get advantages over me to get into colleges they don't necessarily deserve to be in, simply because they were lucky enough to be born of a descent other than caucasian. If we were still y'know, enslaving the black folks or sending the Asians to camps, then sure, maybe we should do something nice for them but that shit hasn't happened in years why should I, a white male, have to pay for that?

You honestly think someone is LUCKY if they are not a white male in the US? You're brilliant.

[Animalhill]

You honestly think someone is LUCKY if they are not a white male in the US? You're brilliant.
haha While I am glad to have a rich heritage outside the realm of being a WASP, it is certainly not advantageous to be a minority in America.

[GeeBee]

Affirmative action applies to all minority races. Are you making the assumption that every minority is behind in the race? What does it entail to "catch up?" Make money? Affirmative action applies to minorities regardless of their socio-economic status.

If you want a cure for racism, it's sure as shit not going to be in affirmative action.

i'm making the claim that white citizens hold 90% of the power and wealth in this country.

i'm not talking about a cure for racism. i'm talking about a cure for the ridiculous economic gap between whites and minorities.

Thank you.

[Butters]

Affirmative action says yes.

I've never wronged a person of any minority yet they all get advantages over me to get into colleges they don't necessarily deserve to be in, simply because they were lucky enough to be born of a descent other than caucasian. If we were still y'know, enslaving the black folks or sending the Asians to camps, then sure, maybe we should do something nice for them but that shit hasn't happened in years why should I, a white male, have to pay for that?


Actually, it has statistically been white women that have benefited the most from affirmative action. Although it has been years since as you put it that "shit" has happened to "them" the establishment that was created while they were being discriminated against has been allowed to continue to oppress minorities, hence the need for affirmative action, which though it may slight a small percentage of white males, it still falls short of ending discrimination against minorities.

[bung]

Thank you.

The economic gap is a result of racism.

You're welcome.

It should also be noted that affirmative action does, on the average, tend to result in upper and middle class minorities receiving the benefits when it should be the lower class that is getting them. Since affirmative action does not take class into account, more wealthy minorities are likely to live in a better environment and receive better education, so obviously colleges are going to choose the ones that have better learning ability. Not to mention the fact that IQ is strongly correlated with social class, so they're already at a disadvantage among minorities.

[always10ftJay]

So does anyone want to take into account the Irish were slaves before any african every was we worked in the caine fields of jamaice our homes were burned and forced to fight wars for england as a disposible army the irish were treated much worse I don't understand why the Irish like myself havent bitched about reperations and money for schools and other nonsense for things that happened way before i was born no minority should be given any help to go to school there are opportunities to make yourself better and to grow people the Irish are the black men of europe and all we ask is our land back and nothing more we choose to study and work hard and get good grades earn schalorships and make better lives for ourself as apposed to other minorites who feel that they are owed something for things that happened way before they were born everyone should be able to go to school and work hard i can't tell you how many times I have minorities in class and they don't do any work and expect me to pick up there slack because they have a free ride fuck that I worked my ass off to get in that school how can you expect a soical or racial group to make progress if everything is handed to them WORK HARD AND YOU WILL SUCEED!!!! who cares if your skin is a different color get off your ass and make something of yourself

[Neo Cassady]

It should also be noted that affirmative action does, on the average, tend to result in upper and middle class minorities receiving the benefits when it should be the lower class that is getting them. Since affirmative action does not take class into account, more wealthy minorities are likely to live in a better environment and receive better education, so obviously colleges are going to choose the ones that have better learning ability. Not to mention the fact that IQ is strongly correlated with social class, so they're already at a disadvantage among minorities.

I believe that affirmative action should be class- and need-based, not race-based. Given the statistics, it would work out to more minorities than whites benefiting, but wouldn't waste aid on wealthy families of any race.

[Machu505]

So does anyone want to take into account the Irish were slaves before any african every was we worked in the caine fields of jamaice our homes were burned and forced to fight wars for england as a disposible army the irish were treated much worse I don't understand why the Irish like myself havent bitched about reperations and money for schools and other nonsense for things that happened way before i was born no minority should be given any help to go to school there are opportunities to make yourself better and to grow people the Irish are the black men of europe and all we ask is our land back and nothing more we choose to study and work hard and get good grades earn schalorships and make better lives for ourself as apposed to other minorites who feel that they are owed something for things that happened way before they were born everyone should be able to go to school and work hard i can't tell you how many times I have minorities in class and they don't do any work and expect me to pick up there slack because they have a free ride fuck that I worked my ass off to get in that school how can you expect a soical or racial group to make progress if everything is handed to them WORK HARD AND YOU WILL SUCEED!!!! who cares if your skin is a different color get off your ass and make something of yourself
Amazing. A whole paragraph with no punctuation.

[thespearkid]

So does anyone want to take into account the Irish were slaves before any african every was we worked in the caine fields of jamaice our homes were burned and forced to fight wars for england as a disposible army the irish were treated much worse I don't understand why the Irish like myself havent bitched about reperations and money for schools and other nonsense for things that happened way before i was born no minority should be given any help to go to school there are opportunities to make yourself better and to grow people the Irish are the black men of europe and all we ask is our land back and nothing more we choose to study and work hard and get good grades earn schalorships and make better lives for ourself as apposed to other minorites who feel that they are owed something for things that happened way before they were born everyone should be able to go to school and work hard i can't tell you how many times I have minorities in class and they don't do any work and expect me to pick up there slack because they have a free ride fuck that I worked my ass off to get in that school how can you expect a soical or racial group to make progress if everything is handed to them WORK HARD AND YOU WILL SUCEED!!!! who cares if your skin is a different color get off your ass and make something of yourself
i'm so sick of this dumb ass argument being brought up. the oppression of african-americans went further than just slavery. there was sharecropping and then Jim Crow. blacks have only had the chance to be successful for about 50 years.

and if you really think it's that simple, you need to move down here.

[Animalhill]

So does anyone want to take into account the Irish were slaves before any african every was we worked in the caine fields of jamaice our homes were burned and forced to fight wars for england as a disposible army the irish were treated much worse I don't understand why the Irish like myself havent bitched about reperations and money for schools and other nonsense for things that happened way before i was born no minority should be given any help to go to school there are opportunities to make yourself better and to grow people the Irish are the black men of europe and all we ask is our land back and nothing more we choose to study and work hard and get good grades earn schalorships and make better lives for ourself as apposed to other minorites who feel that they are owed something for things that happened way before they were born everyone should be able to go to school and work hard i can't tell you how many times I have minorities in class and they don't do any work and expect me to pick up there slack because they have a free ride fuck that I worked my ass off to get in that school how can you expect a soical or racial group to make progress if everything is handed to them WORK HARD AND YOU WILL SUCEED!!!! who cares if your skin is a different color get off your ass and make something of yourself
:hitself: More than simply the race of the person, the socioeconomic predisposition based on race in American is the real heart of this argument.
More than, "working your ass off", what I like to call the "uterus lottery" is a much larger proponent of success.

[Animalhill]

i'm so sick of this dumb ass argument being brought up. the oppression of african-americans went further than just slavery. there was sharecropping and then Jim Crow. blacks have only had the chance to be successful for about 50 years.

and if you really think it's that simple, you need to move down here.
Open any history book and its either your people, or my people (Jews) that are being persecuted.

[GeeBee]

So does anyone want to take into account the Irish were slaves before any african every was we worked in the caine fields of jamaice our homes were burned and forced to fight wars for england as a disposible army the irish were treated much worse I don't understand why the Irish like myself havent bitched about reperations and money for schools and other nonsense for things that happened way before i was born no minority should be given any help to go to school there are opportunities to make yourself better and to grow people the Irish are the black men of europe and all we ask is our land back and nothing more we choose to study and work hard and get good grades earn schalorships and make better lives for ourself as apposed to other minorites who feel that they are owed something for things that happened way before they were born everyone should be able to go to school and work hard i can't tell you how many times I have minorities in class and they don't do any work and expect me to pick up there slack because they have a free ride fuck that I worked my ass off to get in that school how can you expect a soical or racial group to make progress if everything is handed to them WORK HARD AND YOU WILL SUCEED!!!! who cares if your skin is a different color get off your ass and make something of yourself

Biggest myth ever perpetuated upon the american people. You are clearly an idiot.

[Theseventhson]

So does anyone want to take into account the Irish were slaves before any african every was we worked in the caine fields of jamaice our homes were burned and forced to fight wars for england as a disposible army the irish were treated much worse I don't understand why the Irish like myself havent bitched about reperations and money for schools and other nonsense for things that happened way before i was born no minority should be given any help to go to school there are opportunities to make yourself better and to grow people the Irish are the black men of europe and all we ask is our land back and nothing more we choose to study and work hard and get good grades earn schalorships and make better lives for ourself as apposed to other minorites who feel that they are owed something for things that happened way before they were born everyone should be able to go to school and work hard i can't tell you how many times I have minorities in class and they don't do any work and expect me to pick up there slack because they have a free ride fuck that I worked my ass off to get in that school how can you expect a soical or racial group to make progress if everything is handed to them WORK HARD AND YOU WILL SUCEED!!!! who cares if your skin is a different color get off your ass and make something of yourself
I tried, but I couldn't make sense of this giant eyesore.

[GeeBee]

Open any history book and its either your people, or my people (Jews) that are being persecuted.

Forget a history book. Open up AP.net. There's always some jackass making a mockery of Jews. It's infuriating.

[Theseventhson]

Open any history book and its either your people, or my people (Jews) that are being persecuted.
We never get any breaks. (Us Jews)

[GeeBee]

I believe that affirmative action should be class- and need-based, not race-based. Given the statistics, it would work out to more minorities than whites benefiting, but wouldn't waste aid on wealthy families of any race.
:hitself: More than simply the race of the person, the socioeconomic predisposition based on race in American is the real heart of this argument.
More than, "working your ass off", what I like to call the "uterus lottery" is a much larger proponent of success.

Both backed.

[Theseventhson]

Forget a history book. Open up AP.net. There's always some jackass making a mockery of Jews. It's infuriating.
Sweet Max Headroom avatar.

[Animalhill]

Forget a history book. Open up AP.net. There's always some jackass making a mockery of Jews. It's infuriating.
Although you make think its funny to CONSTANTLY bash my heritage based on ingrained racism, it is not.
Its is time you make your avatar a swastika, and show your true colors as a combat boots wearing neo-Nazi.

[GeeBee]

We never get any breaks. (Us Jews)

Except maybe on Jewelry and baked goods. Oh yeah, and large swaths of land near Palestine.
:lol:

[Animalhill]

We never get any breaks. (Us Jews)
האח שלי!

[GeeBee]

Although you make think its funny to CONSTANTLY bash my heritage based on ingrained racism, it is not.
Its is time you make your avatar a swastika, and show your true colors as a combat boots wearing neo-Nazi.
:-d I'm shaving my head and listening to Hatebreed right now!

[GeeBee]

Sweet Max Headroom avatar.

Thanks man! Oh, and don't take me seriously, I love Jews, haha.

[SLoT]

Biggest myth ever perpetuated upon the american people. You are clearly an idiot.
I don't think I've ever agreed with anyone more than I do with this statement.

[Animalhill]

:-d I'm shaving my head and listening to Hatebreed right now!
hahahahaha you are the fucking man.

[GeeBee]

I don't think I've ever agreed with anyone more than I do with this statement.

This "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" nonsense is absurd. Perhaps it was fine in Beaver Cleaver's day, but it's hardly apt in our current circumstances. It's sad that it takes an upper-middle class white guy like me to point this out.

[Theseventhson]

Thanks man! Oh, and don't take me seriously, I love Jews, haha.
Haha, can you ever take anything on this site seriously?

[Animalhill]

Haha, can you ever take anything on this site seriously?
He will unless its coming from you or I, then it is just Jewspeak.
FUN FACT: Did you know that until I corrected him, GeeBee thought all Jews were born with beaks, and then had them removed at birth?

[thespearkid]

This "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" nonsense is absurd. Perhaps it was fine in Beaver Cleaver's day, but it's hardly apt in our current circumstances. It's sad that it takes an upper-middle class white guy like me to point this out.
every time i hear someone say "pull yourself up by your bootstraps", i remember that month and half long period when i was seven where my parents couldn't afford to buy me new shoes so i had to walk around barefoot.

[Praetor]

If black people are so oppressed then how come we have a black president?

Think about it.

[Theseventhson]

He will unless its coming from you or I, then it is just Jewspeak.
FUN FACT: Did you know that until I corrected him, GeeBee thought all Jews were born with beaks, and then had them removed at birth?
Wait, you mean you DIDN'T have your beak removed at birth?

[Animalhill]

Wait, you mean you DIDN'T have your beak removed at birth?
:-d Nah man, it was either the beak, or the horns, and my parents chose to remove the horns first.
I had to swindle stock holders to eventually remove my beak and hooves.

[GeeBee]

He will unless its coming from you or I, then it is just Jewspeak.
FUN FACT: Did you know that until I corrected him, GeeBee thought all Jews were born with beaks, and then had them removed at birth?
:lol:
What can I say, I'm from Utah. I didn't know blacks or jews EXISTED until I was 17!

every time i hear someone say "pull yourself up by your bootstraps", i remember that month and half long period when i was seven where my parents couldn't afford to buy me new shoes so i had to walk around barefoot.

Well, despite our religious differences, I'm happy to see we are kindred spirits in regards to socio-economic/race questions.

[GeeBee]

If black people are so oppressed then how come we have a black president?

Think about it.

Either this was satirical, or we're no longer friends. :-d

[Machu505]

If black people are so oppressed then how come we have a black president?

Think about it.
Totally agree. Plus, we have one black man in the Senate. Isn't that enough?

[Animalhill]

every time i hear someone say "pull yourself up by your bootstraps", i remember that month and half long period when i was seven where my parents couldn't afford to buy me new shoes so i had to walk around barefoot.
I hear you, I was homeless for the first 6 years of my life.

[Praetor]

Either this was satirical, or we're no longer friends. :-d
No, think about it. Obama is black. And we elected him for the job of POTUS. That means a majority of Americans aren't racist and because of the concept of majority rule, there's no such thing as racism anymore.

[Animalhill]

No, think about it. Obama is black. And we elected him for the job of POTUS. That means a majority of Americans aren't racist and because of the concept of majority rule, there's no such thing as racism anymore.
... you are joking right?

[GeeBee]

Totally agree. Plus, we have one black man in the Senate. Isn't that enough?

Bill Cosby is pretty funny. Not as funny as Seinfeld, but funny. Hence racism is dead.

[Praetor]

Totally agree. Plus, we have one black man in the Senate. Isn't that enough?
Exactly. Totally proportionate to their population. You know, since they're still considered only three-fifths of a person.

[Animalhill]

:lol:
What can I say, I'm from Utah. I didn't know blacks or jews EXISTED until I was 17!



Well, despite our religious differences, I'm happy to see we are kindred spirits in regards to socio-economic/race questions.
Did you see a program about us on National Geographic and question your existence? Or record it and watched it high because you thought the way that we eat was hilarious?

[Praetor]

... you are joking right?
Have you ever seen me post?

[GeeBee]

Did you see a program about us on National Geographic and question your existence? Or record it and watched it high because you thought the way that we eat was hilarious?

No. I watched Fiddler on the Roof, then The Color Purple. Shit got real.

[Machu505]

Bill Cosby is pretty funny. Not as funny as Seinfeld, but funny. Hence racism is dead.
In a few years, we white folk will be oppressed by the Jewish-Black monopoly over comedy. You've been warned.
Exactly. Totally proportionate to their population. You know, since they're still considered only three-fifths of a person.
We all know that Congress is really really good at accurately representing the American people. You know, with the 13 Jews in the Senate and the 1 atheist in the entire Congress.

[Animalhill]

Have you ever seen me post?
hahaha not really- you answered my question with the fraction reguarding exactly how human minorities are. Cheers :-)

[Duexy]

chegar de fingir...eu não tenho nada a esconder agora pra valer...haja o que houver

[Animalhill]

In a few years, we white folk will be oppressed by the Jewish-Black monopoly over comedy. You've been warned.

We all know that Congress is really really good at accurately representing the American people. You know, with the 13 Jews in the Senate and the 1 atheist in the entire Congress.
And we will be laughing :-d

[Praetor]

In a few years, we white folk will be oppressed by the Jewish-Black monopoly over comedy. You've been warned.

We all know that Congress is really really good at accurately representing the American people. You know, with the 13 Jews in the Senate and the 1 atheist in the entire Congress.
Yeah, and let's face it, there are more white Christians in America than blacks, Jews, and atheists combined so why shouldn't they have a monopoly? People are just making mountains out of molehills.

[Machu505]

Duexy, il suce.

[Machu505]

And we will be laughing :-d
After all, the only white comedian not named Stephen Colbert that I find really funny anymore is Michael Ian Black, and just look at his last name!
Yeah, and let's face it, there are more white Christians in America than blacks, Jews, and atheists combined so why shouldn't they have a monopoly? People are just making mountains out of molehills.
O hai Pat Buchanan.

[Charles777]

Lots of anti-whites at my school. Then again, there's a shit ton of white guys that hate literally every race at my school too.

[Animalhill]

After all, the only white comedian not named Stephen Colbert that I find really funny anymore is Michael Ian Black, and just look at his last name!

O hai Pat Buchanan.
haha you see! We are infiltrating already.
SIDE NOTE: Bill Hicks is the best fucking comedian ever.

[Machu505]

haha you see! We are infiltrating already.
SIDE NOTE: Bill Hicks is the best fucking comedian ever.
But he's dead! Just shows that the conspiracy was taking hold ages ago.

[Animalhill]

But he's dead! Just shows that the conspiracy was taking hold ages ago.
haha fun fact: Bill Hicks was murdered by Madoff.

[bung]

I think culture and heritage really need to be examined closely when we consider things like college enrollment and socio-economic status. The fact that Asian-Americans have a 79% enrollment rate in college (compared to 61% of whites) gives a lot of credence to the idea that a culture specific to a given minority plays a very large role in determining their place in society, maybe even coming close to the influence racism has.

When one examines Asian culture, Japan specifically, the things that are emphasized are education, success, and honor (their high suicide rate speaks wonders for how important those things are). The pressure many Asian parents put on their children to get a proper education and a successful career is something that, as far as I can tell, is unmatched by any other group. But when I think of contemporary African-American and Hispanic culture, it just seems like quite a different story. I know that one of the reasons more Hispanics don't attend college is because they tend to have large families, and a lot of times they're expected to get a job immediately after high school in order to help provide. And umm.. eh, that's all I remember from sociology--I'd have to look some other reasons up.

But yeah, anyway, just trying to add something new here.

[Animalhill]

I think culture and heritage really need to be examined closely when we consider things like college enrollment and socio-economic status. The fact that Asian-Americans have a 79% enrollment rate in college (compared to 61% of whites) gives a lot of credence to the idea that a culture specific to a given minority plays a very large role in determining their place in society, maybe even coming close to the influence racism has.

When one examines Asian culture, Japan specifically, the things that are emphasized are education, success, and honor (their high suicide rate speaks wonders for how important those things are). The pressure many Asian parents put on their children to get a proper education and a successful career is something that, as far as I can tell, is unmatched by any other group. But when I think of contemporary African-American and Hispanic culture, it just seems like quite a different story. I know that one of the reasons more Hispanics don't attend college is because they tend to have large families, and a lot of times they're expected to get a job immediately after high school in order to help provide. And umm.. eh, that's all I remember from sociology--I'd have to look some other reasons up.

But yeah, anyway, just trying to add something new here.
This is what I was trying to get at before GeeBee had to flash his Nazi colors.
The American Dream is dead, and has been replaced by, as I referred to it before, the "uterus lottery" (meaning being born into a certain socioeconomic status).

[Praetor]

After all, the only white comedian not named Stephen Colbert that I find really funny anymore is Michael Ian Black, and just look at his last name!

O hai Pat Buchanan.
hahahaha Pat Buchanan

[Love As Arson]

I think culture and heritage really need to be examined closely when we consider things like college enrollment and socio-economic status. The fact that Asian-Americans have a 79% enrollment rate in college (compared to 61% of whites) gives a lot of credence to the idea that a culture specific to a given minority plays a very large role in determining their place in society, maybe even coming close to the influence racism has.

When one examines Asian culture, Japan specifically, the things that are emphasized are education, success, and honor (their high suicide rate speaks wonders for how important those things are). The pressure many Asian parents put on their children to get a proper education and a successful career is something that, as far as I can tell, is unmatched by any other group. But when I think of contemporary African-American and Hispanic culture, it just seems like quite a different story. I know that one of the reasons more Hispanics don't attend college is because they tend to have large families, and a lot of times they're expected to get a job immediately after high school in order to help provide.
In America, how often does one see an African-American lawyer, for example, on television? How often does one see the definition of success for African-Americans depicted in sports or rapping? One, then, has to question who owns the institutions which disseminate these images and what is the reason for the inclination towards that definition of success.

[theguy77]

Just because you happen to be black and middle class does not mean you cannot, do not, or have not become a victim of racism. It shouldn't be surprising that anti-white sentiments can still be found in those communities; those people can't stay sitting in those neighborhoods forever. They have jobs in other areas, shop in other areas, hang out in other areas, etc.

i never argued this?

The original question is dubious at best because I think racism is one of those terms that isn't clearly defined and everyone (especially among those who haven't actively studied how it affects the American social structure) has a different understanding of what it means and how it operates. I don't think minorities can be "racist" against white people on any level beyond the individual because they do not have the social capital necessary to oppress whites in most instances (maybe a white person won't get to be a city council member in a mostly black neighborhood because of his race but that's pittance when compared to how race relations have worked in the other direction).

this is a fallacious semantical perspective of the term "racism". what you're arguing is the fact that the EFFECTS of white-on-black racism are far greater than the effects of black-on-white racism, and thats true in america. but racism, by principle, is an ideological prejudice against others, predicated on the basis of their skin color. prejudice is an attitude; you dont have to act on that attitude in order to be prejudiced. therefore, black people do indeed have the capability of exemplifying racism, and i would go so far as to say there is a proclivity for some of them to develop those attitudes, given that some minority communities live a subpar lifestyle generated as a result of white oppression.

[x togepi x]

i love it when white boys try to talk about race relations.

[thespearkid]

i love it when white boys try to talk about race relations.
reminds me of my arguments with ben on the subject.

[x togepi x]

reminds me of my arguments with ben on the subject.

oh god, i wonder how those went.

[thespearkid]

oh god, i wonder how those went.
frustrating as hell. he seemed to acknowledge that poor minorities faced a huge disadvantage when it came to getting an education or a job, but he didn't think there was anything wrong with that or something.

[x togepi x]

frustrating as hell. he seemed to acknowledge that poor minorities faced a huge disadvantage when it came to getting an education or a job, but he didn't think there was anything wrong with that or something.

that sounds like him.

[theguy77]

hahahaha yeah it does. oh, ben.

[saysmydoctor]

Why would you bring up Ben? Why why why? :wallbash:

[theguy77]

I think culture and heritage really need to be examined closely when we consider things like college enrollment and socio-economic status. The fact that Asian-Americans have a 79% enrollment rate in college (compared to 61% of whites) gives a lot of credence to the idea that a culture specific to a given minority plays a very large role in determining their place in society, maybe even coming close to the influence racism has.

When one examines Asian culture, Japan specifically, the things that are emphasized are education, success, and honor (their high suicide rate speaks wonders for how important those things are). The pressure many Asian parents put on their children to get a proper education and a successful career is something that, as far as I can tell, is unmatched by any other group. But when I think of contemporary African-American and Hispanic culture, it just seems like quite a different story. I know that one of the reasons more Hispanics don't attend college is because they tend to have large families, and a lot of times they're expected to get a job immediately after high school in order to help provide. And umm.. eh, that's all I remember from sociology--I'd have to look some other reasons up.

But yeah, anyway, just trying to add something new here.

one huge thing that you're missing, though, is that african american culture and its degenerate connotations, are not inherent, but primarily a response to the oppression they faced in america. so i mean, its not like they migrated to america from africa and naturally formed that role in society based on those values; they were forced into that cultural role and remain there today as the generations progress without... well, progress. modernized african culture (i.e. that of the african countries that are as industrialized and are technologically on par with the rest of the western world) is actually not at all similar to african-AMERICAN culture.

[GeeBee]

i love it when white boys try to talk about race relations.

*GASP*...racist. :nono:

[bung]

one huge thing that you're missing, though, is that african american culture and its degenerate connotations, are not inherent, but primarily a response to the oppression they faced in america. so i mean, its not like they migrated to america from africa and naturally formed that role in society based on those values; they were forced into that cultural role and remain there today as the generations progress without... well, progress. modernized african culture (i.e. that of the african countries that are as industrialized and are technologically on par with the rest of the western world) is actually not at all similar to african-AMERICAN culture.

I realize that. But what I'm wondering is what makes Asian-American culture so special. They faced enormous discrimination and oppression during WWII, and now they surpass even whites in educational attainment. Even the Chinese that were brought in to build the transcontinental railroad were largely discriminated against. There must be something that is either inherent in Asian culture, or something that they look to independent of American culture, or else they, too, wouldn't find themselves in the position they are in now.

[theguy77]

I realize that. But what I'm wondering is what makes Asian-American culture so special. They faced enormous discrimination and oppression during WWII, and now they surpass even whites in educational attainment. Even the Chinese that were brought in to build the transcontinental railroad were largely discriminated against. There must be something that is either inherent in Asian culture, or something that they look to independent of American culture, or else they, too, wouldn't find themselves in the position they are in now.

well, didnt most of them make the choice to live here in the first place, and willingly immigrate? the fact that they werent stripped from their own culture (they were able to keep it within the family by moving together), and the fact that they werent oppressed nearly as long as african americans (leaving less room for cultural decay through the generations) implies that with their circumstances, it might have been easier for them to retain asian-specific values even through all the interracial tension and turbulence they may have faced.

[Stormtrooper]

There should not be any scholarships for blacks that whites can't obtain. Apples to apples. What if there were White only scholarships?

[GeeBee]

There should not be any scholarships for blacks that whites can't obtain. Apples to apples. What if there were White only scholarships?

Uh...there HAVE been white only scholarships...since the inception of the country. They only recently started to peter off since the civil rights movement. The fact that you think white people would NEED their own scholarship program shows you still don't have a grasp on the situation.

[Stormtrooper]

Uh...there HAVE been white only scholarships...since the inception of the country. They only recently started to peter off since the civil rights movement. The fact that you think white people would NEED their own scholarship program shows you still don't have a grasp on the situation.

Woah, woah, woah. Your reading comprehension is terrible. Firstly, I never said Whites need their own scholarship program. I said, "What if..."(and that What if... is answered in the link at the end). Second, white only scholarships existed because whites controlled the government/society and felt that they were superior to blacks. And finally, the only reason black only scholarships exist is because people generalize blacks into one group that has suffered and needs reparation. That same generalization caused racism in the first place. And I'm pretty sure I have a grasp.--> http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2674267&page=1

[theguy77]

There should not be any scholarships for blacks that whites can't obtain. Apples to apples. What if there were White only scholarships?

yeah why not correctively privilege the race that is already privileged? that makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:

its not apples to apples. its apples in a refrigerator to apples left out on a counter for 2 weeks.

[x togepi x]

Woah, woah, woah. Your reading comprehension is terrible. Firstly, I never said Whites need their own scholarship program. I said, "What if..."(and that What if... is answered in the link at the end). Second, white only scholarships existed because whites controlled the government/society and felt that they were superior to blacks. And finally, the only reason black only scholarships exist is because people generalize blacks into one group that has suffered and needs reparation. That same generalization caused racism in the first place. And I'm pretty sure I have a grasp.--> http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2674267&page=1

what the fuck are you smoking?

[Love As Arson]

Woah, woah, woah. Your reading comprehension is terrible. Firstly, I never said Whites need their own scholarship program. I said, "What if..."(and that What if... is answered in the link at the end). Second, white only scholarships existed because whites controlled the government/society and felt that they were superior to blacks. And finally, the only reason black only scholarships exist is because people generalize blacks into one group that has suffered and needs reparation. That same generalization caused racism in the first place. And I'm pretty sure I have a grasp.--> http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2674267&page=1
Anti-racism = racism. Good stuff.

[ShShShark]

It isn't nearly as prevalent as white racism against blacks, Asians, Native Americans, Hispanics, Arabs, Jews, etc.

Though in speaking from personal experience, I have met numerous racist white people, but never any racist black people.

Move to Philly if you would like to meet some.

[open mind]

as a half breed i've taken shit for not being white enough and not being native enough.
idiocy exists in every subset of humanity.

[omgrawr]

ya!

[simensays]

i've never met a racist black person. I don't think black people in general have that kind of hate for non-blacks like whites do. Clearly a lot of whites are racists, but other than whites i think the rest are separatists. Asians hang out with asians, indians w/ Indians, etc. I don't think other races hate others, they simply stay away from others maybe from fear, maybe because they think others will not like them. I'm all for separatism, I just would like that the hate would be gone.
For example, I don't care if whites only like whites, but they shouldn't hate blacks, Hispanics, Asians etc. Leave them alone if you don't want to associate but stop complaining about them.

[Alou]

Yes.

[dropdeadforme]

I'm racist against everyone, including white people.
It's just something I usually try to hide from everyone haha

[stayforawhile]

I've met several met many people of minoriy ethnicity that are racist against not only white but other minorities. In my highschool the black kids always ostracized themselves from everyone else and were extemely racist towards white people.

[zach]

It looks like a lot of people in this thread don't understand the difference between racism and prejudice or distrust. Racism by definition is the institutionalized discrimination against people of whatever race. Despite having a black president, the establishment is still overwhelmingly white, so no, at current it is not possible to be racist against whites in the US because there is no minority group that's in a position to institute policies of discrimination against white Americans. Is it possible to be prejudice against white people? Absolutely. But racism is about power dynamics, not just rude names.

[caveBEAR]

I'm racist against non-humans. Do you guys even know what South Africa is hiding in District 9?!

[thefallofcorey]

I'm racist against non-humans. Do you guys even know what South Africa is hiding in District 9?!

Not yet, but I've got a feeling I'm gonna find out this weekend. :celebrate:

[joeag1985]

Oh dear....

Sorry, nothing race related. It's just your avatar, I can't really make it out... Is it Yeats?

[paper halo]

Sorry, nothing race related. It's just your avatar, I can't really make it out... Is it Yeats?

Yes, it is Yeats.