View Full Version : Settle an argument... Best DEFENSIVE Shortstop in the AL
mikeford
03/30/06, 02:44 PM
This is the only time I would encourage a plethora of Bill James stats, because I think Gold Gloves are a load of bullshit based on popularity.
Caleb Cattivera
03/30/06, 02:50 PM
This is the only time I would encourage a plethora of Bill James stats, because I think Gold Gloves are a load of bullshit based on popularity.
you think alot of funny stuff. i dont think players like john olerud, mike cameron, travis fryman, or neifi perez won because they're popular. you're saying this because jeter's won the last two.
LeftWideOpen
03/30/06, 02:51 PM
alex gonzalez. orlando cabrera is up there too.
Dirty Ernie
03/30/06, 02:53 PM
i said guillen but it could go a few different ways
mikeford
03/30/06, 02:54 PM
you think alot of funny stuff. i dont think players like john olerud, mike cameron, travis fryman, or neifi perez won because they're popular. you're saying this because jeter's won the last two.
im saying it because the same people win almost every year, even when they dont deserve it. popularity was probably the wrong word but whatever. theres no way jeter wins those gold gloves if he plays for the drays or the the pirates.
Caleb Cattivera
03/30/06, 02:58 PM
im saying it because the same people win almost every year, even when they dont deserve it. popularity was probably the wrong word but whatever. theres no way jeter wins those gold gloves if he plays for the drays or the the pirates.
you're bringing the word if in here. he doesnt play for either of those teams, he plays for the yankees. how come players for teams that arent playoff caliber like teixeira, orlando hudson and vernon wells are winning? this is a pretty ridiculous statement dude, sorry.
mikeford
03/30/06, 03:01 PM
okay i tried to vote for OCab but apparently it had me vote for Betancourt.
OCab had the best Fielding Percentage and the 3rd best Zone Rating in the AL last season.
LeftWideOpen
03/30/06, 03:02 PM
you're bringing the word if in here. he doesnt play for either of those teams, he plays for the yankees. how come players for teams that arent playoff caliber like teixeira, orlando hudson and vernon wells are winning? this is a pretty ridiculous statement dude, sorry.
i dunno, i think he has a point. most of the time, the players who win are deserving. However, after a player has won 4 or 5 in a row or something like that and his defense begins to decline, he stills ends up winning a few more just because of his reputation. That's my big issue with the Gold Glove awards. Roberto Alomar comes to mind about 5 years ago.
mikeford
03/30/06, 03:03 PM
reputation.. theres the word i was looking for.
mikeford
03/30/06, 03:21 PM
good job reading, stupid
weezer182
03/30/06, 03:22 PM
good job reading, stupidshut up dick. i didn't read it all the way through
lanolynn
03/30/06, 03:40 PM
if he still played ss arod would be at the top of this list
bigmike
03/30/06, 03:42 PM
if he still played ss arod would be at the top of this list
but he doesn't, so he's not. nice contribution.
bigmike
03/30/06, 03:43 PM
i said guillen but it could go a few different ways
did you honestly just say guillen? and you're serious? please, stick to philly. Guillen isn't even top 5, let alone the best.
bigmike
03/30/06, 03:44 PM
i voted for gonzalez because he's completely underrated, i think as a defensive shortstop. however, orlando cabrerra is right up there with anyone in the majors.
Spicoli hey bud
03/30/06, 04:56 PM
Alex Rodriguez, Cabrera and Jeter are probably the 3 most talented fielders at the position.
mikeford
03/30/06, 05:18 PM
Alex Rodriguez, Cabrera and Jeter are probably the 3 most talented fielders at the position.
league wide or just AL?
arod doesnt play shortstop anymore, so its a moot point to bring him up.
Cabrera had better EVERYTHING than Jeter last year... yet Jeter wins the gold glove
YouMadeTheScene
03/30/06, 05:39 PM
league wide or just AL?
arod doesnt play shortstop anymore, so its a moot point to bring him up.
Cabrera had better EVERYTHING than Jeter last year... yet Jeter wins the gold glove
it's not all about stats. that seems to be the new wave of thinking since fantasy sports have become so popular. did you think David Ortiz should've won the MVP last year because of his hits in big games? Well the same goes for Jeter and how he comes up defensively in big games.
histrionics22
03/30/06, 05:49 PM
it's not all about stats. that seems to be the new wave of thinking since fantasy sports have become so popular. did you think David Ortiz should've won the MVP last year because of his hits in big games? Well the same goes for Jeter and how he comes up defensively in big games.
He's a good leader, but some of his "big" plays are overrated.
FASSWcore
03/30/06, 05:52 PM
now that omar is in the NL, i don't even care to contemplate who the best defensive shortstop is
mikeford
03/30/06, 06:15 PM
it's not all about stats. that seems to be the new wave of thinking since fantasy sports have become so popular. did you think David Ortiz should've won the MVP last year because of his hits in big games? Well the same goes for Jeter and how he comes up defensively in big games.
No.
a DH shouldnt win the MVP cuz he doesnt play half the game.
mikeford
03/30/06, 06:16 PM
now that omar is in the NL, i don't even care to contemplate who the best defensive shortstop is
jack wilson has passed omar in terms of defense.
omars still top tier but i think jack wilson is better now.
NetNerdsRevenge
03/30/06, 06:59 PM
Alex Rodriguez, Cabrera and Jeter are probably the 3 most talented fielders at the position.
dude, you totally stole my avatar. how did you get it to work?
I dont have anything from Bill James, or the fielding bible (which would probably work best in this argument), but I have defensive numbers from hardball times and baseball prospectus. David Gassko from HBT did a study between his fielding metric and UZR (which was not published last year because the person who made the metric was hired by the Cardinals) and his RAA (runs above average) was pretty damn close to UZR. UZR was probably the best before it was taken off mainstream. I'm not sure about baseball prospectus....actually I haven’t even looked at the two to see how close they are.
anyway, Ill post both HBT fielding numbers and BP's.
Hardball Times
Alex Gonzalez- RAA: 7.3
Derek Jeter- RAA: -15.7
Julio Lugo- RAA: 4.7
Miguel Tejada- RAA: 7.2
Russ Adams- RAA: -34.1 (ugly)
Jhonny Peralta- RAA: -2.1
Juan Uribe- RAA: 10.9
Angel Berroa- RAA: -20.4
Carlos Guillen- RAA: 3.4
Jason Bartlett- RAA: Not Available
Bobby Crosby- RAA: 11.3
Michael Young- RAA: -34.4 (ugly)
Orlando Cabrera- RAA: -6.8
Yuniesky Betancourt- RAA: Not Available
Baseball Prospectus
Alex Gonzalez- Defense: -1
Derek Jeter- Defense: 9
Julio Lugo- Defense: 6
Miguel Tejada- Defense: -3
Russ Adams- Defense: -23
Jhonny Peralta- Defense: 15
Juan Uribe- Defense: 9
Angel Berroa- Defense: -9
Carlos Gullien- Defense: 1
Jason Bartlett- Defense: 12
Bobby Crosby- Defense: 7
Michael Young- Defense: -19
Orlando Cabrera- Defense: 7
Yuniesky Betancourt- Defense: -4
Huge contrast with some, others similar. Keep in mind Hardball Times has been said to awfully close to UZR (known as one of the best metrics around) and Hardball Times tells you how they calculate it. I dont know much about BP's defensive metric aside from what they say in their annual, which is not much. here is a link (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/measuring-range/) to HBT's study.
NetNerdsRevenge
03/30/06, 07:02 PM
and for your enjoyment, UZR (http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html) ratings between 2000 and 2003.
mikeford
03/30/06, 07:06 PM
dude, you should probably explain what those numbers mean, since im pretty sure no one here understands those.
NetNerdsRevenge
03/30/06, 07:09 PM
He's a good leader, but some of his "big" plays are overrated.
kinda like that catch he made in the long 13 inning game vs the sox? Reese made a tougher grab, but because he didnt dive into the stands no one gives him recognition.
mikeford
03/30/06, 07:18 PM
kinda like that catch he made in the long 13 inning game vs the sox? Reese made a tougher grab, but because he didnt dive into the stands no one gives him recognition.
one of the most overrated plays of all time. dude catchs the ball in fair territory and doesnt brace himself against the wall so he flies into the stands and suddenly hes superman
fuck that.
NetNerdsRevenge
03/30/06, 07:20 PM
dude, you should probably explain what those numbers mean, since im pretty sure no one here understands those.
The hardball times article I linked explains it, but ill try short hand. Basically they divide the field up into little grids, with each being in a fielders zone. Then they spilt up balls in play by groundballs, line drives, and fly balls. Groundballs only count for infielders while fly balls and line drives count for outfielders. Then they calculate a teams batted balls in play against left handed hitter and right handed hitters to determine where the balls were put into play. Then they determine which position the ball travels to and based off players actual assists they can tell how many assists above or below they were.
Which I should clarify. Hardball Times' numbers are assists and BP's are runs. So you actually have two numbers to work from. good.
jeter is overrated defensively. he caught a ball while running and then ran into the stands, that doesn't make him ozzie smith
CallMeChief
03/30/06, 09:27 PM
jeter is overrated defensively. he caught a ball while running and then ran into the stands, that doesn't make him ozzie smith
Damn, i miss ozzy, i loved that guy
ThriftWhore
03/30/06, 09:45 PM
Cabrera. It was close between him, Gonzalez and Jeter, but in the end he just plays the best in my opinion.
cantnokdahustle
03/30/06, 09:54 PM
Betancourt will be, and is very close to being the best defensive short stop in the AL; who the fuck voted for bartlett?
cabrera, jeter is not a very good defender he doesnt get to a lot of balls he should he makes some big plays and has garnered an undeserved reputation as a stellar defender
CallMeChief
03/30/06, 11:12 PM
cabrera, jeter is not a very good defender he doesnt get to a lot of balls he should he makes some big plays and has garnered an undeserved reputation as a stellar defender
I've been a Yankee fan for a while just because most of my family loved them for a long time and Jeter's just one of those guys that works his ass off on the field every single game. I have so much respect for the guy. I voted for him just because I've seen him play since '96 and i've just seen so much incredible stuff from that guy and he's been one of my favorites for a long time because he just seems like a qunitessential leader. Cabrera's a great fielder, too, i just love Jeter and his hustle on a regular basis is so impressive, especially because i never considered him to be that fast, imo.
Spicoli hey bud
03/30/06, 11:40 PM
dude, you totally stole my avatar. how did you get it to work?
Well if you just got it it clearly had it before you did.
NetNerdsRevenge
03/30/06, 11:44 PM
Well if you just got it it clearly had it before you did.
I think you put a t in there when it shouldn't have been, but I've this up for thr past couple weeks....now I gotta change it!
Spicoli hey bud
03/30/06, 11:46 PM
I think you put a t in there when it shouldn't have been, but I've this up for thr past couple weeks....now I gotta change it!
i've had it for a few weeks as well. i would gladly change it though. i get bored easily.
cantnokdahustle
03/31/06, 08:27 AM
http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=183084
one of the most overrated plays of all time. dude catchs the ball in fair territory and doesnt brace himself against the wall so he flies into the stands and suddenly hes superman
fuck that.
dude, you do not know how happy you just made me. I have been telling that to people for so long and everyone always tells me i am wrong. Jeter caught the ball while running, he wasn't in the air when he caught it. He then proceeds to dive into the stands after catching the ball. That was all over the papers in new york. But when david wright (the mets third baseman, who will be a star this year) makes a catch where he legitimately dives into the stands full stretch and makes the catch while in the air it barely gets a mention.
LeftWideOpen
03/31/06, 11:07 AM
dude, you do not know how happy you just made me. I have been telling that to people for so long and everyone always tells me i am wrong. Jeter caught the ball while running, he wasn't in the air when he caught it. He then proceeds to dive into the stands after catching the ball. That was all over the papers in new york. But when david wright (the mets third baseman, who will be a star this year) makes a catch where he legitimately dives into the stands full stretch and makes the catch while in the air it barely gets a mention.
the bare-handed grab by Wright was the play of the year last season. i'll never forget that.
the bare-handed grab by Wright was the play of the year last season. i'll never forget that.
yeah, he is great at making the "fantastic" plays, he just needs to get a little more solid all around and in a few years he will be one of the top defensive third basemen.
ThriftWhore
03/31/06, 12:06 PM
the bare-handed grab by Wright was the play of the year last season. i'll never forget that.
that was definetely one of the most spectacular catches i've ever seen.
NetNerdsRevenge
03/31/06, 12:42 PM
the bare-handed grab by Wright was the play of the year last season. i'll never forget that.
I think that won the web gem awards. That was amazing.
NetNerdsRevenge
03/31/06, 12:43 PM
i've had it for a few weeks as well. i would gladly change it though. i get bored easily.
Im changing mine to a B come monday so dont worry about it.
Split2nd
03/31/06, 07:35 PM
You 7 who voted for Jetes need to be clobbed in the head with an ESPN embroidered bat.
You 7 who voted for Jetes need to be clobbed in the head with an ESPN embroidered bat.
basically
also, that jeter play in the ALCS a couple years ago when he nabbed i think jeremy giambi at the play by running across the field was bullshit too, because first of all, on all accounts that i've ever seen of it, oakland dude looked safe, 2nd of all, he was playing out of position on the play. that play was made such a big deal back in the day.
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