workers of the world unite! (Official communist thread)

[dejaxentendu]

communism the most beautiful/controversial concept know to man

[saysmydoctor]

This thread could become amazing.

Subscribin' and also waiting for Dom.

[Love As Arson]

"It is precisely this industrial revolution, which has raised the productive power of human labor to such a high level that--for the first time in the history of humanity--the possibility exists, given a rational division of labor among all, to produce not only enough for the plentiful consumption of all members of society and for an abundant reserve fund, but also to leave each individual sufficient leisure so that what is really worth preserving in historically inherited culture--science, art, human relations--is not only preserved, but converted from a monopoly of the ruling class into the common property of the whole of society, and further developed. "
http://socialistworker.org/2009/08/03/enough-to-go-around

Good stuff.

[saysmydoctor]

What would communists say to the claims that communism is a utopian idea? Also, what are some faults of communism?

[ShShShark]

I would assume by communism you are referring to Marxism, and not communism under Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, etc.....

[dejaxentendu]

theoretical communism/marxism/socialism... not past examples of terrorist dictatorships pushing through their own agendas.

[dejaxentendu]

What would communists say to the claims that communism is a utopian idea? Also, what are some faults of communism?


democracy, republics, monarchies, oligarchies, and all other forms of government are all utopian in a way. not everyone will be happy. not every problem will be solved. all are a little idealistic in their own right.

some of the faults of communism i would say in the past have been the inability of dictatorships to fade away. also the no privacy/ controlled information aspect of it.

thats why socialism is sometimes more commonly accepted it is almost a more liberal form

[socoxshelby]

I think Marxism is beautiful. I think humanity is not.

[Theseventhson]

http://www.vulomedia.com/images/33403Communism_Is_A_Party.jpg

Sorry, had to do it.

[saysmydoctor]

democracy, republics, monarchies, oligarchies, and all other forms of government are all utopian in a way. not everyone will be happy. not every problem will be solved. all are a little idealistic in their own right.

some of the faults of communism i would say in the past have been the inability of dictatorships to fade away. also the no privacy/ controlled information aspect of it.

thats why socialism is sometimes more commonly accepted it is almost a more liberal form
This is my general response to the 'utopian' argument.

I'd tend to agree with the lack of privacy.

[iheartmusic043]

Communism is stupid because not everyone works. Why should people who work and earn their money have to pay for lowlifes who refuse to get jobs, ie people on welfare.

[saysmydoctor]

Communism is stupid because not everyone works. Why should people who work and earn their money have to pay for lowlifes who refuse to get jobs, ie people on welfare.
You don't know what communism is. Please read up.

[Machu505]

Communism is stupid because not everyone works. Why should people who work and earn their money have to pay for lowlifes who refuse to get jobs, ie people on welfare.
In past "communist" societies, those without jobs were the first to be sent to the gulag.

[rollerman4221]

Communism is stupid because not everyone works. Why should people who work and earn their money have to pay for lowlifes who refuse to get jobs, ie people on welfare.

Your stupid for not knowing what communism is. I bet you watch fox for your political news

[saysmydoctor]

Your stupid for not knowing what communism is. I bet you watch fox for your political news
Probably not fair to say she is stupid and probably not fair to assume she watches Fox.

[The Personist]

What is the communist take on art and being an artist? How does that work in a communist society?

[Machu505]

Your stupid for not knowing what communism is. I bet you watch fox for your political news
Oh the irony.

[rollerman4221]

Probably not fair to say she is stupid and probably not fair to assume she watches Fox.

I see people with the same wrong idea of communism on Fox news, so i just assumed. And going into a thread about a topic without understanding the topic and blindly making a comment about it is more ignorant then stupid, but whatev

[rollerman4221]

Oh the irony.

that my grammar sucks?

[saysmydoctor]

I see people with the same wrong idea of communism on Fox news, so i just assumed. And going into a thread about a topic without understanding the topic and blindly making a comment about it is more ignorant then stupid, but whatev
Well, Fox is not even the biggest perpetrator. History textbooks misrepresent communism constantly, so a kid is using their understanding. The problem is it is corrupted. Better solution is to provide better readings rather than some propagating textbook.

[Machu505]

that my grammar sucks?
Yeah. But not to bring down your point.

The main problem now is--because of the Red Scare--people don't really know what communism is. All they know is that it's foreign and different and therefore bad.

[iheartmusic043]

Probably not fair to say she is stupid and probably not fair to assume she watches Fox.
Thank you. I've actually had to read parts of Marx's Communist Mannifesto and I think Fox is the reason the news is so biased, but anyway, just because i'm 16 doesn't mean I know less than you people. I know alot about politics, probably alot more than a lot of people who are older than me, because I actually pay attention to politics and history. I think Communism is messed up. Socialism and communism holds back countries from advancing. Like my AP history teacher said, "Communism is the reason why Russia is such a backwards country". I also agree it's why China and North Korea are completely messed up. So there I'm not so dumb after all.

[rollerman4221]

Well, Fox is not even the biggest perpetrator. History textbooks misrepresent communism constantly, so a kid is using their understanding. The problem is it is corrupted. Better solution is to provide better readings rather than some propagating textbook.

Any history textbook of any nation is going to be propaganda. I wish I could afford to study abroad and take an american history class, i bet it would be a little different then what I was taught in school.

[saysmydoctor]

Thank you. I've actually had to read parts of Marx's Communist Mannifesto and I think Fox is the reason the news is so biased, but anyway, just because i'm 16 doesn't mean I know less than you people. I know alot about politics, probably alot more than a lot of people who are older than me, because I actually pay attention to politics and history. I think Communism is messed up. Socialism and communism holds back countries from advancing. Like my AP history teacher said, "Communism is the reason why Russia is such a backwards country". I also agree it's why China and North Korea are completely messed up. So there I'm not so dumb after all.
Neither of those nations embraced communism. Communism is stateless society. You are comparing a totalitarian corruption of the original concept to the original concept. Like one said earlier, the dictatorships that try to bring about communism generally fail to abolish the state.

Not to mention, more socialized nations are some of the most competitive in the world, actually.

[rollerman4221]

Thank you. I've actually had to read parts of Marx's Communist Mannifesto and I think Fox is the reason the news is so biased, but anyway, just because i'm 16 doesn't mean I know less than you people. I know alot about politics, probably alot more than a lot of people who are older than me, because I actually pay attention to politics and history. I think Communism is messed up. Socialism and communism holds back countries from advancing. Like my AP history teacher said, "Communism is the reason why Russia is such a backwards country". I also agree it's why China and North Korea are completely messed up. So there I'm not so dumb after all.

I honestly did not even glance at your age before I made my reply. Good response, except you threw china in there. Go look up some info on China lately, and it might change your mind on some things.

[rollerman4221]

Neither of those nations embraced communism. Communism is stateless society. You are comparing a totalitarian corruption of the original concept to the original concept. Like one said earlier, the dictatorships that try to bring about communism generally fail to abolish the state.

Not to mention, more socialized nations are some of the most competitive in the world, actually.

+1

[saysmydoctor]

I think people should read Noam Chomsky's "Government in the Future." He makes a fairly valid point that moved me: the state--in any form--is an anti-human institution.

[iheartmusic043]

Neither of those nations embraced communism. Communism is stateless society. You are comparing a totalitarian corruption of the original concept to the original concept. Like one said earlier, the dictatorships that try to bring about communism generally fail to abolish the state.

Not to mention, more socialized nations are some of the most competitive in the world, actually.

I honestly did not even glance at your age before I made my reply. Good response, except you threw china in there. Go look up some info on China lately, and it might change your mind on some things.

China had been a Communist country fro almost a century. It may work, but it's definitely not perfect. I know because I had to research China's gov't for part of my AP Comparative gov't summer homework. What I really don't get is how can they refer to their government, as not only communist, but as a "democratic dictatorship". Isn't that an oxymoron?

[saysmydoctor]

It's not a communist country. Communism is egalitarian, classless, stateless society. China is NONE of these things.

[Love As Arson]

What would communists say to the claims that communism is a utopian idea?
Utopian refers to an ideology in which an ideal is presented ,but no means to get there is given. Marxism provides a frame-work and analysis through which capitalism can be understood and overcome; Marxists posit that the economic basis determines social-relations ,and as such an alternative organization of the economy can create a new set of social relations. We've seen it in the past with bourgeois revolutions that transformed feudal relations into a society under whic hproperty/natural rights and competition reigned supreme;no longer was subservience justified by divine mandate,but now men were endowed with the right to wealth,so long as they proved themselves better than the rest.If we can do that, why would it be utopian to utilize the productive power of capitalism to create a society where rights include housing,food and health care,as well as work-place democracy and the freedom from the paradigm of accumulation as a means to establish worth/political power.

As for the faults of socialism,we cannot speak of them in that manner,since we have not created a socialist society.

[saysmydoctor]

Utopian refers to an ideology in which an ideal is presented ,but no means to get there is given. Marxism provides a frame-work and analysis through which capitalism can be understood and overcome; Marxists posit that the economic basis determines social-relations ,and as such an alternative organization of the economy can create a new set of social relations. We've seen it in the past with bourgeois revolutions that transformed feudal relations into a society under whic hproperty/natural rights and competition reigned supreme;no longer was subservience justified by divine mandate,but now men were endowed with the right to wealth,so long as they proved themselves better than the rest.If we can do that, why would it be utopian to utilize the productive power of capitalism to create a society where rights include housing,food and health care,as well as work-place democracy and the freedom from the paradigm of accumulation as a means to establish worth/political power.

As for the faults of socialism,we cannot speak of them in that manner,since we have not created a socialist society.
Much like anarchy, then? I wasn't calling communism utopian, but seeking an explanation as to why it was called tha.

[shit stroll]

Thank you. I've actually had to read parts of Marx's Communist Mannifesto and I think Fox is the reason the news is so biased, but anyway, just because i'm 16 doesn't mean I know less than you people. I know alot about politics, probably alot more than a lot of people who are older than me, because I actually pay attention to politics and history. I think Communism is messed up. Socialism and communism holds back countries from advancing. Like my AP history teacher said, "Communism is the reason why Russia is such a backwards country". I also agree it's why China and North Korea are completely messed up. So there I'm not so dumb after all.


haha. capitalism worked out real well for russia in the 90's.

[The Personist]

What is the communist take on art and being an artist? How does that work in a communist society?

Dom?

[iheartmusic043]

haha. capitalism worked out real well for russia in the 90's.
Compared to other countries, Russia is really behind.

[Love As Arson]

What is the communist take on art and being an artist? How does that work in a communist society?
"In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, to fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, shepherd or critic."

"The exclusive concentration of artistic talent in particular individuals, and its suppression in the broad mass which is bound up with this, is a consequence of division of labour. Even if in certain social conditions, everyone were an excellent painter, that would by no means exclude the possibility of each of them being also an original painter, so that here too the difference between “human” and “unique” labour amounts to sheer nonsense. In any case, with a communist organisation of society. there disappears the subordination of the artist to local and national narrowness, which arises entirely from division of labour, and also the subordination of the individual to some definite art, making him exclusively a painter, sculptor, etc.; the very name amply expresses the narrowness of his professional development and his dependence on division of labour. In a communist society there are no painters but only people who engage in painting among other activities."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch03l.htm

[The Personist]

"In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, to fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, shepherd or critic."

"The exclusive concentration of artistic talent in particular individuals, and its suppression in the broad mass which is bound up with this, is a consequence of division of labour. Even if in certain social conditions, everyone were an excellent painter, that would by no means exclude the possibility of each of them being also an original painter, so that here too the difference between “human” and “unique” labour amounts to sheer nonsense. In any case, with a communist organisation of society. there disappears the subordination of the artist to local and national narrowness, which arises entirely from division of labour, and also the subordination of the individual to some definite art, making him exclusively a painter, sculptor, etc.; the very name amply expresses the narrowness of his professional development and his dependence on division of labour. In a communist society there are no painters but only people who engage in painting among other activities."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch03l.htm

So if I understand correctly, if I want to be a writer, I am a writer among other things? It can't be my principle occupation, but it can be what I'm best at?

Also, how do we determine good art or bad art in a communist society?

[Love As Arson]

Much like anarchy, then? I wasn't calling communism utopian, but seeking an explanation as to why it was called tha.
There are branches of anarchy which are utopian,but there are those,like anarcho-syndicalists, who have a material basis for their approach to revolution.

[saysmydoctor]

There are branches of anarchy which are utopian,but there are those,like anarcho-syndicalists, who have a material basis for their approach to revolution.
I understood, I just want to make sure that you acknowledge revolution needs to phased in, rather than abrupt like utopians and anarchists imply.

[Love As Arson]

So if I understand correctly, if I want to be a writer, I am a writer among other things? It can't be my principle occupation, but it can be what I'm best at?

What Marx is saying is that the capitalist division of labor assigns professions,like artist,which entails living in a particular way and having a certain identity.Instead of viewing things like this,there are no painters or accountants,but individuals with an assortment of activities.Technological advances have allowed us to reduce labor-time exponentially,so we can utilize this to allow individuals the time to develop themselves and whatever interests they have.


Also, how do we determine good art or bad art in a communist society?
It depends on the values we create.To my mind,the best art is meant to reflect with period in which it was created with some insight,as well as representing with some accuracy the value imbued by the process of creation.But,that is my subjective view.

[The Personist]

What Marx is saying is that the capitalist division of labor assigns professions,like artist,which entails living in a particular way and having a certain identity.Instead of viewing things like this,there are no painters or accountants,but individuals with an assortment of activities.Technological advances have allowed us to reduce labor-time exponentially,so we can utilize this to allow individuals the time to develop themselves and whatever interests they have.

It depends on the values we create.To my mind,the best art is meant to reflect with period in which it was created with some insight,as well as representing with some accuracy the value imbued by the process of creation.But,that is my subjective view.

Ah, I see. So we can use the same critical lenses we have now for art in a communist society as well, then?

And as for the first bit, I suppose what you're saying is that instead of having to define myself as "the poet," I define myself as "David," which may include and feature in large part my being "the poet," but isn't just that one category alone?

It's late and I'm not that articulate right now. Sorry.

[TachyonEvan]

I think Marxism is beautiful. I think humanity is not.

:nod:

[zach]

Like my AP history teacher said, "Communism is the reason why Russia is such a backwards country".
Right, because you know, historically russia has always been such a forward thinking and progressive country. What year was it that serfdom was abolished in russia again? Oh, right 1861! And I'm sure that since you have such a great history teacher that you already that their emancipation left them even worse off than they were before.
I'm not even going to begin to get into how fucking arrogant it is for somebody with no expierence with russian culture and a western bias to call it "backwards". Here's a novel concept: Let's let the russian's decide how backwards their country is. I mean, I disagree with just about everything the russian government does, but it's none of my bussiness how an other people wants to organize their society.

[TachyonEvan]

Right, because you know, historically russia has always been such a forward thinking and progressive country. What year was it that serfdom was abolished in russia again? Oh, right 1861! And I'm sure that since you have such a great history teacher that you already that their emancipation left them even worse off than they were before.
I'm not even going to begin to get into how fucking arrogant it is for somebody with no expierence with russian culture and a western bias to call it "backwards". Here's a novel concept: Let's let the russian's decide how backwards their country is. I mean, I disagree with just about everything the russian government does, but it's none of my bussiness how an other people wants to organize their society.

I think I'm in love with you.

[zach]

I'm flattered but I think you're too young for me.

[open mind]

with the rights set of leaders and a lack of interference from outside powers communism could be the greatest thing to ever happen to the world....i can see a great set of leaders, but interference from the outside by those who don't want to see change (every world power and their subordinates) is all but guaranteed.

[Praetor]

Well, Fox is not even the biggest perpetrator. History textbooks misrepresent communism constantly, so a kid is using their understanding. The problem is it is corrupted. Better solution is to provide better readings rather than some propagating textbook.
I think I wrote a letter to a publishing company once about this.

[Animalhill]

Excited about this thread. Hopefully there are some good discussions later in the afternoon.

[caveBEAR]

What really happens to art, music, etc., in a communist state? Because the very way that we understand art and music now, as a touring band/big artist/etc., would essentially vanish if the U.S./most of the rest of the world didn't have a capitalist-ish economy? Do people, in a communist/Marxist society, still have the means and the rights to purchase art, therefore propelling an artist into the public eye? Can a band form, and then go on tour? Without a record label, how would people outside of the area even know of the groups? I know that we would still have the internet and mass communication, but does communism essentially turn art into a regional thing?

[iheartmusic043]

Well, Fox is not even the biggest perpetrator. History textbooks misrepresent communism constantly, so a kid is using their understanding. The problem is it is corrupted. Better solution is to provide better readings rather than some propagating textbook.

We don't even use high school textbooks. We use college level textbooks ocasionally, but mainly we read the documents and other stuff from the periods we learn about. The reason I think China is so messed up is because they don't have nearly as many rights as the countries with more democratic-based governments. Russia is backwards because it has come along way from Communism, but still has a long way to go until it catches up to other countries. I love how people don't understand how Americans take our government for granted. I know it's messed up in alot of ways, but we have it pretty good compared to alot of countries.

[Animalhill]

What really happens to art, music, etc., in a communist state? Because the very way that we understand art and music now, as a touring band/big artist/etc., would essentially vanish if the U.S./most of the rest of the world didn't have a capitalist-ish economy? Do people, in a communist/Marxist society, still have the means and the rights to purchase art, therefore propelling an artist into the public eye? Can a band form, and then go on tour? Without a record label, how would people outside of the area even know of the groups? I know that we would still have the internet and mass communication, but does communism essentially turn art into a regional thing?
This is an AWESOME question, and I await a response from someone more educated the subject quite impatiently.

[saysmydoctor]

We don't even use high school textbooks. We use college level textbooks ocasionally, but mainly we read the documents and other stuff from the periods we learn about. The reason I think China is so messed up is because they don't have nearly as many rights as the countries with more democratic-based governments. Russia is backwards because it has come along way from Communism, but still has a long way to go until it catches up to other countries. I love how people don't understand how Americans take our government for granted. I know it's messed up in alot of ways, but we have it pretty good compared to alot of countries.
Read this very slowly: Russia has never embraced communism. You are wrong

[iheartmusic043]

Read this very slowly: Russia has never embraced communism. You are wrong
Did I ever say they embraced Communism? I think not.

[Animalhill]

We don't even use high school textbooks. We use college level textbooks ocasionally, but mainly we read the documents and other stuff from the periods we learn about. The reason I think China is so messed up is because they don't have nearly as many rights as the countries with more democratic-based governments. Russia is backwards because it has come along way from Communism, but still has a long way to go until it catches up to other countries. I love how people don't understand how Americans take our government for granted. I know it's messed up in alot of ways, but we have it pretty good compared to alot of countries.
Being, "better" than some countries does not make our government in any way right, or good.

[saysmydoctor]

Then stop using China and Russia as examples of why communism is bad if you are acknowledging that they have never embraced communism. It's irrelevant, the two aren't pertinent into the issue.

[macabre]

Can you get to communism without state planning? If it is understood that state planning is a necessary step toward the end of communism then wouldn't the failure of its implementation disqualify communism from being reached? If not, what other alternatives are there for a society to transition to communism?

[iheartmusic043]

Being, "better" than some countries does not make our government in any way right, or good.

I was just making the point that Americans take freedom for granted. That's all

[Animalhill]

I was just making the point that Americans take freedom for granted. That's all
With most adults working 50+ hours a week, and still in debt up to our eyeballs- we are hardly as "free" as you would like to believe. Humans in general of ceased being free a long, long time ago.

[iheartmusic043]

With most adults working 50+ hours a week, and still in debt up to our eyeballs- we are hardly as "free" as you would like to believe. Humans in general of ceased being free a long, long time ago.
I don't mean the people who actually work. I mean people who are on welfare because they are lazy and people who have social security and don't really need it. I know many people like these. SS was created for the elderly when they retire not for what some people use it for today.

[bung]

Haha, this picture made me laugh.

http://www.joserodriguez.info/bloc/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images//communism_monopoly.jpg

[Animalhill]

I don't mean the people who actually work. I mean people who are on welfare because they are lazy and people who have social security and don't really need it. I know many people like these. SS was created for the elderly when they retire not for what some people use it for today.
You have zero insight into the welfare system unless you've BEEN on welfare. I speak from personal experience, being homeless with my mother until I was 6, and can ussure you, no matter what your parents tell you, most people on welfare are not just being lazy. Yourpost is full of entitlement.

[saysmydoctor]

I don't mean the people who actually work. I mean people who are on welfare because they are lazy and people who have social security and don't really need it. I know many people like these. SS was created for the elderly when they retire not for what some people use it for today.
You mean like funding a weapons race? I know, I was pissed when I found out SS money was used for that.

[iheartmusic043]

You have zero insight into the welfare system unless you've BEEN on welfare. I speak from personal experience, being homeless with my mother until I was 6, and can ussure you, no matter what your parents tell you, most people on welfare are not just being lazy. Yourpost is full of entitlement.

I live across the street from a small city with projects. I know many peeople who live there because I volunteer where my mom works, and she works in a hospital a street away from the projects. Many of them have 10 kids and refuse to get a job. I'm not making a generalization about people on welfare because I know for a fact that all people on welfare are not like alot of the people my mom works with. Heck my mom and I were on welfare when I was really young ans she sure as hell wasn't lazy.

You mean like funding a weapons race? I know, I was pissed when I found out SS money was used for that.

There is on woman I know who had a slight heart murmur, which turned out to be fine, but she had her doctor write a script that she had to be put on ss because she could no longer work due to her heart condition. Plus there are numerous other ways people misuse SS and not by funding a weapons race.

[Animalhill]

I live across the street from a small city with projects. I know many peeople who live there because I volunteer where my mom works, and she works in a hospital a street away from the projects. Many of them have 10 kids and refuse to get a job. I'm not making a generalization about people on welfare because I know for a fact that all people on welfare are not like alot of the people my mom works with. Heck my mom and I were on welfare when I was really young ans she sure as hell wasn't lazy.



There is on woman I know who had a slight heart murmur, which turned out to be fine, but she had her doctor write a script that she had to be put on ss because she could no longer work due to her heart condition. Plus there are numerous other ways people misuse SS and not by funding a weapons race.
Haha but thats exactly what you did! Sorry, I'm in a bit of an antagonistic mood. Fuck my job/cubicle.

[iheartmusic043]

Haha but thats exactly what you did! Sorry, I'm in a bit of an antagonistic mood. Fuck my job/cubicle.

I was saying that alot of people I know that are on welfare are like that, not all. Oh and where do you work that is making you so miserable.

[SpacePunk]

Communism would NEVER work because humans are inherently selfish.

Capitalism and competition has inspired technological advances much more quickly than a true communist society ever would.

I think its fair to assume that if global communism with stateless societies took over in the early 20th century, Man would still not have set foot on the moon.

[caveBEAR]

I don't mean the people who actually work. I mean people who are on welfare because they are lazy and people who have social security and don't really need it. I know many people like these. SS was created for the elderly when they retire not for what some people use it for today.

It's a shame we can't feed the underprivileged bullshit, or you and your history teacher (who really should look into taking a history class or two himself) would be able to fix poverty single handedly.

You do realize that a majority of people on welfare are hard-working Americans, who, usually because of situations out of their control, just can't make ends meet. Are there people abusing the system? Of course. I knew a kid who was 16 and on unemployment because he got 'let go' from a Taco Bell and just didn't feel like getting work again. However, to label the entire system as infected with lazy people, who apparently hate their freedom? That's just ignorant.

Listen, it's awesome that you wandered into the politics thread from the Hey Monday Chat Thread or where ever else you were, but maybe if you just stop letting everyone know just how much you don't know, why don't you read a bit, or ask questions, and learn from people who know a hell of a lot more than you.

[caveBEAR]

I live across the street from a small city with projects. I know many peeople who live there because I volunteer where my mom works, and she works in a hospital a street away from the projects. Many of them have 10 kids and refuse to get a job. I'm not making a generalization about people on welfare because I know for a fact that all people on welfare are not like alot of the people my mom works with. Heck my mom and I were on welfare when I was really young ans she sure as hell wasn't lazy.

Actually, in many projects, men leave the family structure very early on, something that began back when welfare began. See, back then, if the men were around, the families didn't get welfare. So the fathers started out by staying away from the home on the hours a welfare agent could show up, then they stayed away longer, then longer, then never came back. This happened to most families in projects, which has then bred a system of men not staying with the families they create. Many women, as well, find that they get more done by living in more of a 'favor' system, in which one woman watches kids, one does laundry, one makes food, etc, all looking out for each other rather than the dismal pay rates that await them at the jobs available for them. It's called the Underground Economy, very interesting.

[Animalhill]

I was saying that alot of people I know that are on welfare are like that, not all. Oh and where do you work that is making you so miserable.
I'm too paranoid to post the actual name of my company, but a fortune 1000 IT company. I'm an account manager for large corporations IT products (servers, networking, licesing etc). Its boring as fuck, I am totally unqualified for the position- but hell, it pays the bills.

[iheartmusic043]

It's a shame we can't feed the underprivileged bullshit, or you and your history teacher (who really should look into taking a history class or two himself) would be able to fix poverty single handedly.

You do realize that a majority of people on welfare are hard-working Americans, who, usually because of situations out of their control, just can't make ends meet. Are there people abusing the system? Of course. I knew a kid who was 16 and on unemployment because he got 'let go' from a Taco Bell and just didn't feel like getting work again. However, to label the entire system as infected with lazy people, who apparently hate their freedom? That's just ignorant.

Listen, it's awesome that you wandered into the politics thread from the Hey Monday Chat Thread or where ever else you were, but maybe if you just stop letting everyone know just how much you don't know, why don't you read a bit, or ask questions, and learn from people who know a hell of a lot more than you.

I meant lazy people that are on welfare. I wasn't saying that I people on welfare are lazy. People on here love to twist my words around. Oh and I hate Hey Monday, so stop saying that I'm wrong for making generalizations (which I did not do) because you actually are. Someone's a hypocrite

[caveBEAR]

I meant lazy people that are on welfare. I wasn't saying that I people on welfare are lazy. People on here love to twist my words around.

Well, you sure made it sound like anyone on welfare was lazy, no one was twisting your words around. If that's not what you meant, that's cool, but that's how it came across.

Oh and I hate Hey Monday, so stop saying that I'm wrong for making generalizations (which I did not do) because you actually are. Someone's a hypocrite

I don't even fucking know where to begin with this one. Are you really trying to compare me saying that you, a 16 year old girl on ap.net, crawled out of the Hey Monday Chat Thread (which isn't a real thread) with your blanket bullshit regurgitations about welfare and communism from your moron teacher?

I threw a band out there. I couldn't give less of a shit if you really listen to them or not. However, it's incomparable with you spouting your ass backwards nonsense.

[iheartmusic043]

Well, you sure made it sound like anyone on welfare was lazy, no one was twisting your words around. If that's not what you meant, that's cool, but that's how it came across.

I don't even fucking know where to begin with this one. Are you really trying to compare me saying that you, a 16 year old girl on ap.net, crawled out of the Hey Monday Chat Thread (which isn't a real thread) with your blanket bullshit regurgitations about welfare and communism from your moron teacher?

I threw a band out there. I couldn't give less of a shit if you really listen to them or not. However, it's incomparable with you spouting your ass backwards nonsense.
Instead of being a sexist and adultist ass and implying that I'm just a moronic 16 (almost 17 year old) girl, how about you take your meds because you sound very bipolar in this post.

[caveBEAR]

Instead of being a sexist and adultist ass and implying that I'm just a moronic 16 (almost 17 year old) girl, how about you take your meds because you sound very bipolar in this post.

Adultist? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. What the fuck is that?

[Animalhill]

Instead of being a sexist and adultist ass and implying that I'm just a moronic 16 (almost 17 year old) girl, how about you take your meds because you sound very bipolar in this post.
I now dislike you.
Adultist? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. What the fuck is that?
Exactly.

[iheartmusic043]

Adultist? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. What the fuck is that?

I now dislike you.

Exactly.
Adultism is a form of ageism that is discrimination against and stereotyping teenagers. Oh and about the bipolar thing, it was a joke.

[paper halo]

Communism would NEVER work because humans are inherently selfish.

I would argue that Capitalism has perpetuated selfishness.

Capitalism and competition has inspired technological advances much more quickly than a true communist society ever would.

I think its fair to assume that if global communism with stateless societies took over in the early 20th century, Man would still not have set foot on the moon.

There is no way for you to back these assertions up. They are baseless and born of bias, and so do nothing to further discussion.

[paper halo]

Instead of being a sexist and adultist ass and implying that I'm just a moronic 16 (almost 17 year old) girl, how about you take your meds because you sound very bipolar in this post.

You have demonstrated that you have no understanding of Communism, yet you continue to argue against it, throwing out irrelevant points and misinformed rubbish. To say that you are completely wrong is not sexist or adultist, but a fair assessment of your contribution to this thread.

[iheartmusic043]

You have demonstrated that you have no understanding of Communism, yet you continue to argue against it, throwing out irrelevant points and misinformed rubbish. To say that you are completely wrong is not sexist or adultist, but a fair assessment of your contribution to this thread.

I'm done arguing with people. I'm losing brain cells by reading the mindless criticisms of others.

[caveBEAR]

Adultism is a form of ageism that is discrimination against and stereotyping teenagers. Oh and about the bipolar thing, it was a joke.

Ha ha ha ha, lemme boil this one down for you;

Adultism = a form of ageism that is discrimination against and stereotyping teenagers.
Adultism = bullshit.

[iheartmusic043]

Ha ha ha ha, lemme boil this one down for you;

Adultism = a form of ageism that is discrimination against and stereotyping teenagers.
Adultism = bullshit.
Adultism is out there. It pisses me of when people who are older than me underestimate me just because I'm younger and lump me with the "typical stupid teenager" stereotype. That's what I call bullshit.

[Animalhill]

Adultism is a form of ageism that is discrimination against and stereotyping teenagers. Oh and about the bipolar thing, it was a joke.
An insensitive one that justifies his insinuation that your age is apparent in your posting.

[paper halo]

I'm done arguing with people. I'm losing brain cells by reading the mindless criticisms of others.

Understandable. Your initial criticism of Communism caused my last trace of hope for the human species to shrivel and die.

[caveBEAR]

Adultism is out there. It pisses me of when people who are older than me underestimate me just because I'm younger and lump me with the "typical stupid teenager" stereotype. That's what I call bullshit.

No, I lumped you in with 'typical stupid' (note the lack of the word 'teenager') because you said typically stupid things. It had nothing to do with age (save the Hey Monday comment, but I enjoy Hey Monday, so that's moot in my book) and entirely to do with your comments. Had you been 55 or 5, the things you were saying were uninformed, and pissed me off. End of story.

[iheartmusic043]

An insensitive one that justifies his insinuation that your age is apparent in your posting.

I think it's hilarious that once again I'm being judged on my age. If my age was 24 or something would you still say I sound, as you implied, "immature"? I think not. That's why this world is bullshit.

[caveBEAR]

An insensitive one that justifies his insinuation that your age is apparent in your posting.

Especially seeing as my response wasn't 'bi-polar' in any way. You know, unless she meant bi-polar as in 'he said one thing and then said another, going back and forth just like my mom did last week, you know, my mom who I live with because I'm 16'. <--- OH NO!!! AGEISM/ADULTISM!!!

[saysmydoctor]

There is on woman I know who had a slight heart murmur, which turned out to be fine, but she had her doctor write a script that she had to be put on ss because she could no longer work due to her heart condition. Plus there are numerous other ways people misuse SS and not by funding a weapons race.
You do realize 5% of welfare given out is fraudulent right?
I'm done arguing with people. I'm losing brain cells by reading the mindless criticisms of others.
The only smart decision you've made in this thread.

[caveBEAR]

I think it's hilarious that once again I'm being judged on my age. If my age was 24 or something would you still say I sound, as you implied, "immature"? I think not. That's why this world is bullshit.

He said 'insensitive', not 'immature'. Don't worry, the reading comprehension thing will come with age.

[iheartmusic043]

Especially seeing as my response wasn't 'bi-polar' in any way. You know, unless she meant bi-polar as in 'he said one thing and then said another, going back and forth just like my mom did last week, you know, my mom who I live with because I'm 16'. <--- OH NO!!! AGEISM/ADULTISM!!!

First you said something positive in the post I deemed "bi-polar" and then in the same post you went on this total rampage trying to tear me a new one. Kinda seems bi-polar to me. . .

[Animalhill]

I think it's hilarious that once again I'm being judged on my age. If my age was 24 or something would you still say I sound, as you implied, "immature"? I think not. That's why this world is bullshit.
:gunhead: You should stop all this, "woe is me!" bullshit. You have less experience being alive; ageism is justified unless your maturity exceeds your age- which quite apparently, yours does not.
Especially seeing as my response wasn't 'bi-polar' in any way. You know, unless she meant bi-polar as in 'he said one thing and then said another, going back and forth just like my mom did last week, you know, my mom who I live with because I'm 16'. <--- OH NO!!! AGEISM/ADULTISM!!!
:-d

[iheartmusic043]

He said 'insensitive', not 'immature'. Don't worry, the reading comprehension thing will come with age.
He implied that I was immature thank you very much and i can comprehend. Just because I'm young I'm not illiterate. Just throwing that out there. God why are guys so stupid.

[saysmydoctor]

We are not criticizing you because of your age, we criticizing your misrepresentations of communism--basically, to break it down: you are wrong because you uninformed not because you are young.

Though it is probably a contributing factor.

[saysmydoctor]

He implied that I was immature thank you very much and i can comprehend. Just because I'm young I'm not illiterate. Just throwing that out there. God why are guys so stupid.
I spy with my little eyes...sexism.

[caveBEAR]

First you said something positive in the post I deemed "bi-polar" and then in the same post you went on this total rampage trying to tear me a new one. Kinda seems bi-polar to me. . .

I know, that's why I split your quote into two. So that one response could be positive, the other could be a 'total rampage'. Being a big grown up (boy howdy, he's 22 years young!) I can type out two different emotions and points in one post. Again, with age, you'll pick this up as well.

[caveBEAR]

I spy with my little eyes...sexism.

I believe that would be +1 for you.

[iheartmusic043]

I know, that's why I split your quote into two. So that one response could be positive, the other could be a 'total rampage'. Being a big grown up (boy howdy, he's 22 years young!) I can type out two different emotions and points in one post. Again, with age, you'll pick this up as well.

Enough with the "you'll learn with experience" bullshit because I've actually been through more shit than the average teenager. Once again you are stereotyping me. I call bullshit on the calling me out on being sexist when I got flack for sayinh you guys were ageist.

[paper halo]

He implied that I was immature thank you very much and i can comprehend. Just because I'm young I'm not illiterate. Just throwing that out there. God why are guys so stupid.

Jebus. Your age is irrelevant. You're just wrong, everyone here would call you out regardless of your age.

[caveBEAR]

Enough with the "you'll learn with experience" bullshit because I've actually been through more shit than the average teenager. Once again you are stereotyping me. I call bullshit on the calling me out on being sexist when I got flack for sayinh you guys were ageist.

I'm doing more and more of the age comments because I know it pisses you off. I know it pisses you off because everytime someone posts anything you try to link it to your age.






But again, you'll understand all this when you get older.

[iheartmusic043]

I'm doing more and more of the age comments because I know it pisses you off. I know it pisses you off because everytime someone posts anything you try to link it to your age.






But again, you'll understand all this when you get older.

Haha so mature. Wow I sure hope I'm not this much of an asshole when I'm your age.

[saysmydoctor]

Haha so mature. Wow I sure hope I'm not this much of an asshole when I'm your age.
You should work on not being such a dumbass at the moment and worry about being an asshole at his age when you are his age.

[iheartmusic043]

You should work on not being such a dumbass at the moment and worry about being an asshole at his age when you are his age.
Yeah I'm a dumbass. Ooh I'm so offended I'm gonna go cry myself to sleep now.

[paper halo]

Christ on a bike, this girl is annoying.

You were wrong. You got called out on it. Deal with it.

[saysmydoctor]

Christ on a bike, this girl is annoying.

You were wrong. You got called out on it. Deal with it.
/discussion

[caveBEAR]

Man, I really want to stay and keep up with this conversation, but I need to go drive my car, go to work, and then have a beer.



You know, grown up things.

[iheartmusic043]

Christ on a bike, this girl is annoying.

You were wrong. You got called out on it. Deal with it.
What the hell is christ on a bike and thank you for calling me annoying. My purpose in life has been achieved.

[paper halo]

What the hell is christ on a bike and thank you for calling me annoying. My purpose in life has been achieved.

Jesus on a bicycle. Duh.

See, after accusing everyone of attacking you because of your age, you are now throwing a tantrum and being massively immature, proving that any accusations of immaturity were actually spot on.

[iheartmusic043]

Jesus on a bicycle. Duh.

See, after accusing everyone of attacking you because of your age, you are now throwing a tantrum and being massively immature, proving that any accusations of immaturity were actually spot on.

Thank you for calling me out on having a tantrum lol

[socoxshelby]

Oh the angst in here is super amusing.

On a more communistic (is that even a word?) point, Marx created communism as an escape from England's industrial age corruption, correct? Now if the idea had come earlier in history and spread, would it have created a more lasting desired effect instead of the totalitarianism it turned into?

I'm also sure that communism was thought of prior to Marx, but I'm not really very familiar with world history.

[paper halo]

Oh the angst in here is super amusing.

On a more communistic (is that even a word?) point, Marx created communism as an escape from England's industrial age corruption, correct? Now if the idea had come earlier in history and spread, would it have created a more lasting desired effect instead of the totalitarianism it turned into?

I'm also sure that communism was thought of prior to Marx, but I'm not really very familiar with world history.

It was.

On this note, can we get back on topic now? That moron has successfully derailed the thread over the last page or so.

[caveBEAR]

You know what pisses me off about stupid people on the internet? You're on the internet. Everything in the world ever known is somewhere on the internet, yet people don't take the time to learn any of it.

Instead of whining about ageism and repeating the inaccuracies her history teacher taught her, she could have been (at least on Wikipedia) learning about communism.

[socoxshelby]

I've noticed when people Wikipedia things to learn, they tend to miss points and sound like total idiots.

[iheartmusic043]

I'm baaack!!!!

[socoxshelby]

It was.

On this note, can we get back on topic now? That moron has successfully derailed the thread over the last page or so.

By whom? And did it affect their society?

[paper halo]

You know what pisses me off about stupid people on the internet? You're on the internet. Everything in the world ever known is somewhere on the internet, yet people don't take the time to learn any of it.

Instead of whining about ageism and repeating the inaccuracies her history teacher taught her, she could have been (at least on Wikipedia) learning about communism.

The Communist Manifesto is readily available in it's entirety on the internet. It's hardly long, a few simple searches could have disproved a lot of her misconceptions. Oh well.

[Animalhill]

Enough with the "you'll learn with experience" bullshit because I've actually been through more shit than the average teenager. Once again you are stereotyping me. I call bullshit on the calling me out on being sexist when I got flack for sayinh you guys were ageist.
Irrelevant- you clearly have not learned from those experiences.

You should work on not being such a dumbass at the moment and worry about being an asshole at his age when you are his age.
This.
Man, I really want to stay and keep up with this conversation, but I need to go drive my car, go to work, and then have a beer.



:-d .

Oh the angst in here is super amusing.

On a more communistic (is that even a word?) point, Marx created communism as an escape from England's industrial age corruption, correct? Now if the idea had come earlier in history and spread, would it have created a more lasting desired effect instead of the totalitarianism it turned into?

I'm also sure that communism was thought of prior to Marx, but I'm not really very familiar with world history.
This is a really interesting question. I always tend to believe that any meme's ability to spread and thrive is almost entirely dependent on the time and place that it occurs.
I'm baaack!!!!
Why are you intent on ruining this thread? Proove you're not a 16 year old bimbo and contribute something intelligent.

[iheartmusic043]

Irrelevant- you clearly have not learned from those experiences.


This.



This is a really interesting question. I always tend to believe that any meme's ability to spread and thrive is almost entirely dependent on the time and place that it occurs.

Why are you intent on ruining this thread? Proove you're not a 16 year old bimbo and contribute something intelligent.
I'm just in a mood were it feels good to piss people off :)

[Animalhill]

I'm just in a mood were it feels good to piss people off :)
:-d Oh, silly teenagers.

[iheartmusic043]

:-d Oh, silly teenagers.
Haha :-p

[Animalhill]

Haha :-p
Could you perhaps change the venue for your outlet? This thread does have potential to be good.

[paper halo]

By whom? And did it affect their society?

Well, if we go far enough back, Plato and Aristotle both explored the idea.

There were various Communist groups around when Marx and Engels produced the Manifesto. Paris, Berlin, and London were all home to Communist groups. I'm afraid I do not know much about these groups, it's been a long time since I read any literature on the subject.

[iheartmusic043]

Could you perhaps change the venue for your outlet? This thread does have potential to be good.
Aww but I was having so much fun arguing for no reason :(

[paper halo]

I'm just in a mood were it feels good to piss people off :)

Trolling now are we? Intelligent.

I doubt you'll really piss anyone off. You'll just be ignored after a while.

[Animalhill]

Well, if we go far enough back, Plato and Aristotle both explored the idea.

There were various Communist groups around when Marx and Engels produced the Manifesto. Paris, Berlin, and London were all home to Communist groups. I'm afraid I do not know much about these groups, it's been a long time since I read any literature on the subject.
If you happen upon any good sources online that pertain to this, you should definitely post them.

[paper halo]

If you happen upon any good sources online that pertain to this, you should definitely post them.

My copy of the Communist Manifesto has a fairly detailed preface, containing information about some of these groups and their relevance in the context of Marx's life. I just have no idea where it currently is!

[saysmydoctor]

Aww but I was having so much fun arguing for no reason :(
Seriously shut the fuck up. This is a forum for intelligent discussion and for people who are intent on learning something and debating politics, current issues, and philosophy.

If you want to vent/act like a child, go to Personal Life or General. We aren't interested.

[Animalhill]

My copy of the Communist Manifesto has a fairly detailed preface, containing information about some of these groups and their relevance in the context of Marx's life. I just have no idea where it currently is!
Haha this seems to be the story of my life.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

Actually, in many projects, men leave the family structure very early on, something that began back when welfare began. See, back then, if the men were around, the families didn't get welfare. So the fathers started out by staying away from the home on the hours a welfare agent could show up, then they stayed away longer, then longer, then never came back. This happened to most families in projects, which has then bred a system of men not staying with the families they create. Many women, as well, find that they get more done by living in more of a 'favor' system, in which one woman watches kids, one does laundry, one makes food, etc, all looking out for each other rather than the dismal pay rates that await them at the jobs available for them. It's called the Underground Economy, very interesting.

quoting this because it has been the most interesting thing (to me) said so far.

do you have any additional background info .sources. or papers on this topic?

[Animalhill]

quoting this because it has been the most interesting thing (to me) said so far.

do you have any additional background info .sources. or papers on this topic?
Agreed. I'd love to read more on this.

[GeeBee]

Communism would NEVER work because humans are inherently selfish.

Capitalism and competition has inspired technological advances much more quickly than a true communist society ever would.

I think its fair to assume that if global communism with stateless societies took over in the early 20th century, Man would still not have set foot on the moon.

Dumbest, most overused argument against communism ever. Communism may not be able to thrive because humans tend to be selfish, but CAPITALISM PERPETUATES THAT VERY SELFISHNESS.

Also, you forget that the soviets beat the U.S. into space. So don't pat us on the back too hard about making it to the moon.

[Animalhill]

Dumbest, most overused argument against communism ever. Communism may not be able to thrive because humans tend to be selfish, but CAPITALISM PERPETUATES THAT VERY SELFISHNESS.

Also, you forget that the soviets beat the U.S. into space. So don't pat us on the back too hard about making it to the moon.
THIS. With a system that, almost from birth, points you in the direction of selfishness, how can anything else be expected? With a new system comes new ideals- such a transition, however, would create a subgroup of anti-comunists. *starts building goulag in Palin's back yard*

[GeeBee]

THIS. With a system that, almost from birth, points you in the direction of selfishness, how can anything else be expected? With a new system comes new ideals- such a transition, however, would create a subgroup of anti-comunists. *starts building goulag in Palin's back yard*

I love how people are like..."gee, communism is against human nature", meanwhile ignoring how human nature also isn't inherently greedy, either. Putting a pricetag on EVERYTHING in life certainly isn't preferable to me.

[Animalhill]

I love how people are like..."gee, communism is against human nature", meanwhile ignoring how human nature also isn't inherently greedy, either. Putting a pricetag on EVERYTHING in life certainly isn't preferable to me.
Agreed. The fact that we spend the majority of our life working to stockpile the human invention of money, in order to LIVE, speaks volumes about what humans have become. We shout about freedom while we've seemingly purposefully abandoned it longago, and by our own accord.

[GeeBee]

Agreed. The fact that we spend the majority of our life working to stockpile the human invention of money, in order to LIVE, speaks volumes about what humans have become. We shout about freedom while we've seemingly purposefully abandoned it longago, and by our own accord.

Exactly...this concept of "freedom" (from monarchies and authoritarianism) is pretty widespread nowadays, and quickly becoming the aspired-to norm in most developed countries. But we seemed to have replaced "slavery to government" with "slavery to corporations". Not really that big an improvement, if you ask me.

[Animalhill]

Exactly...this concept of "freedom" (from monarchies and authoritarianism) is pretty widespread nowadays, and quickly becoming the aspired-to norm in most developed countries. But we seemed to have replaced "slavery to government" with "slavery to corporations". Not really that big an improvement, if you ask me.
Not at all- in fact, I believe its much worse. At least when the government is controlling the populace, there is a face to "hate", or rebel against. These facelss corporations that run our country are invisible to the people they are oppressing, making any sort of change extremely difficult and unlikely.

[caveBEAR]

quoting this because it has been the most interesting thing (to me) said so far.

do you have any additional background info .sources. or papers on this topic?

There was a good book called (I believe) Underground Economy (it may have had a subtitle or deviated from that a bit) and it was an interesting read, and I just got done with one called Gang Leader For A Day. Very interesting. About gangs and poverty life in a high rise in Chicago. The author was a college student too stupid to know you avoid areas like that, and he wandered in, ended up befriending the leader, and got access to the lifestyles there that had gone, for a while, pretty undocumented. Very recommended. I'll have to get back to you on the authors, I'm about to step out to work, but I can get them to you when I get home tonight.

[socoxshelby]

Agreed. The fact that we spend the majority of our life working to stockpile the human invention of money, in order to LIVE, speaks volumes about what humans have become. We shout about freedom while we've seemingly purposefully abandoned it longago, and by our own accord.

I like capitalism in a vacuum, in that you reap what you sow. But government/large corporations have killed that.

Also I find the paradox of capitalism interesting. Large corporations killed small businesses which ruins capitalism for the small buiness, but you can't put a cap on how large something can get, because that goes against the concept.

(That sort of makes sense right? I'm a better talker than writer)

[caveBEAR]

I like capitalism in a vacuum, in that you reap what you sow. But government/large corporations have killed that.

Also I find the paradox of capitalism interesting. Large corporations killed small businesses which ruins capitalism for the small buiness, but you can't put a cap on how large something can get, because that goes against the concept.

(That sort of makes sense right? I'm a better talker than writer)

No, that made sense, and it's a good point. On top of that, under capitalism, when the car companies fell apart, the government should have let them die and go under. THEN a new upstart company who had their shit together would have gotten big, until they became too old and big and folded under the weight of their own hardships, and the cycle repeats itself. However, a society who 'bails out' failing companies, no matter how many jobs it saves, is not a capitalist society.

[caveBEAR]

What really happens to art, music, etc., in a communist state? Because the very way that we understand art and music now, as a touring band/big artist/etc., would essentially vanish if the U.S./most of the rest of the world didn't have a capitalist-ish economy? Do people, in a communist/Marxist society, still have the means and the rights to purchase art, therefore propelling an artist into the public eye? Can a band form, and then go on tour? Without a record label, how would people outside of the area even know of the groups? I know that we would still have the internet and mass communication, but does communism essentially turn art into a regional thing?

Just quoting myself here, because I really would like to discuss this later after I get off work, and this got buried behind 3 pages of a little girl who was 'in the mood to piss people off'.

[Animalhill]

No, that made sense, and it's a good point. On top of that, under capitalism, when the car companies fell apart, the government should have let them die and go under. THEN a new upstart company who had their shit together would have gotten big, until they became too old and big and folded under the weight of their own hardships, and the cycle repeats itself. However, a society who 'bails out' failing companies, no matter how many jobs it saves, is not a capitalist society.
Are you suggesting that there is necessarily something wrong with that?
I like capitalism in a vacuum, in that you reap what you sow. But government/large corporations have killed that.

Also I find the paradox of capitalism interesting. Large corporations killed small businesses which ruins capitalism for the small buiness, but you can't put a cap on how large something can get, because that goes against the concept.

(That sort of makes sense right? I'm a better talker than writer)
Awesome post. I agree with the assertation that capitalism is inherently paradoxical.

[caveBEAR]

Are you suggesting that there is necessarily something wrong with that?

Nope, just saying that when people spout 'BUT WE'Z A CAPITALIZZZ SOCIETAHS!' they are, in fact, incorrect.

[socoxshelby]

/off topic

I'm looking at pictures on facebook of my classmates who are drinking champagne and dancing on stripper poles in their super large limousine. It makes me die inside.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

There was a good book called (I believe) Underground Economy (it may have had a subtitle or deviated from that a bit) and it was an interesting read, and I just got done with one called Gang Leader For A Day. Very interesting. About gangs and poverty life in a high rise in Chicago. The author was a college student too stupid to know you avoid areas like that, and he wandered in, ended up befriending the leader, and got access to the lifestyles there that had gone, for a while, pretty undocumented. Very recommended. I'll have to get back to you on the authors, I'm about to step out to work, but I can get them to you when I get home tonight.

Thanks man. I appreciate it.

Feel free to just quote me again whenever you get a list. No rush.

[Animalhill]

Nope, just saying that when people spout 'BUT WE'Z A CAPITALIZZZ SOCIETAHS!' they are, in fact, incorrect.
Ok word. I am horrible at interpreting tone over the internet. Cheers!
/off topic

I'm looking at pictures on facebook of my classmates who are drinking champagne and dancing on stripper poles in their super large limousine. It makes me die inside.
hahaha oy vey.

[saysmydoctor]

Exactly...this concept of "freedom" (from monarchies and authoritarianism) is pretty widespread nowadays, and quickly becoming the aspired-to norm in most developed countries. But we seemed to have replaced "slavery to government" with "slavery to corporations". Not really that big an improvement, if you ask me.
The biggest irony of the conservative movement

[bung]

Exactly...this concept of "freedom" (from monarchies and authoritarianism) is pretty widespread nowadays, and quickly becoming the aspired-to norm in most developed countries. But we seemed to have replaced "slavery to government" with "slavery to corporations". Not really that big an improvement, if you ask me.

The biggest irony of the conservative movement

A conservative capitalist would say socialism/communism makes you a slave to the collective.

[Praetor]

The Communist Manifesto is readily available in it's entirety on the internet. It's hardly long, a few simple searches could have disproved a lot of her misconceptions. Oh well.
Well, to be fair, that's hardly an unbiased source. That would be like me going to John Yoo and asking him if it's all right if I torture some guy.

[SpacePunk]

Dumbest, most overused argument against communism ever. Communism may not be able to thrive because humans tend to be selfish, but CAPITALISM PERPETUATES THAT VERY SELFISHNESS.

Also, you forget that the soviets beat the U.S. into space. So don't pat us on the back too hard about making it to the moon.


Maybe you should read my post again before going off on a dumb rant.

I made it clear the Soviets were not true communists - my point was that a true global and STATELESS communism would go against the fact that competition drives evolution and progress.

If the world had replaced competition with association 100 years ago, we would not have seen the mass production of cars, probably to this day.

[GeeBee]

A conservative capitalist would say socialism/communism makes you a slave to the collective.
At which point I'd say you're already a slave to the collective by being a member of society.

Maybe you should read my post again before going off on a dumb rant.

I made it clear the Soviets were not true communists - my point was that a true global and STATELESS communism would go against the fact that competition drives evolution and progress.

There's no other flavor BUT "stateless" communism. You can't conclusively state the bolded, nor can you conclusively state that it's the ONLY thing driving progress.

[SpacePunk]

There's no other flavor BUT "stateless" communism.

Exactly, so why bring up the Soviet Union?

[GeeBee]

Exactly, so why bring up the Soviet Union?

Because you made it sound like man landed on the moon SOLELY as the result of capitalism. Not only is that idea absurd, but pretty much negated by the fact that a pseudo-communist/socialist state BEAT us into space.

[SpacePunk]

Because you made it sound like man landed on the moon SOLELY as the result of capitalism. Not only is that idea absurd, but pretty much negated by the fact that a pseudo-communist/socialist state BEAT us into space.

Read my earlier edited post (above) about the autmobile, and you will see that I believe true communism would breed mediocrity and laziness.

I think the space race itself had little to do with capitalism.. it showed the power of the state.. but would we have gotten that technologically advanced if it weren't for the industrial revolution and 20th century capitalism? No.

Also, I am not a Capitalist, I would be closer to a technocrat, so make of that what you want!

[paper halo]

Well, to be fair, that's hardly an unbiased source. That would be like me going to John Yoo and asking him if it's all right if I torture some guy.

I wasn't trying to provide her with an unbiased source. She clearly didn't understand Communism, reading the Manifesto would at least enable her to make a distinction between Marxism and Stalinism.

[paper halo]

Maybe you should read my post again before going off on a dumb rant.

I made it clear the Soviets were not true communists - my point was that a true global and STATELESS communism would go against the fact that competition drives evolution and progress.

If the world had replaced competition with association 100 years ago, we would not have seen the mass production of cars, probably to this day.

So does war. How can you support your assertion that Communism would not?

Again, your post is sheer speculation, your assertions are baseless.

[The Personist]

Maybe you should read my post again before going off on a dumb rant.

I made it clear the Soviets were not true communists - my point was that a true global and STATELESS communism would go against the fact that competition drives evolution and progress.

If the world had replaced competition with association 100 years ago, we would not have seen the mass production of cars, probably to this day.

Advancement in technology isn't necessarily progress.

[Praetor]

I wasn't trying to provide her with an unbiased source. She clearly didn't understand Communism, reading the Manifesto would at least enable her to make a distinction between Marxism and Stalinism.
Ah, my bad.

[GeeBee]

Read my earlier edited post (above) about the autmobile and the benefits of mass production, and you will see that I believe true communism would breed mediocrity and laziness.

I think the space race itself had little to do with capitalism.. it showed the power of the state.. but would we have gotten that technologically advanced if it weren't for the industrial revolution and 20th century capitalism? No.

Also, I am not a Capitalist, I would be closer to a technocrat, so make of that what you want!

I read your post, and with all the others...I get that it's what you believe, but I don't think you have much to back up your beliefs in this regard. There's no way to demonstrate that "true communism would breed mediocrity and laziness", since it's not been attempted, and ignores the fact that our best attempts at capitalism HAVE CONCLUSIVELY bred greed, extortion, and class stratification.

The industrial revolution was carried out on the backs of child laborers and the poor, so as a technocrat, you could see where I imagine we could have attained the same technological advances WITHOUT the use of exploitative labor to bring about the so called "revolution" of industry.

[Praetor]

Can we at least all agree that you're a fucking idiot if you ever mention the phrase "Communist state"?

[GeeBee]

Advancement in technology isn't necessarily progress, especially when it's basically been carried out on the backs of those who can't even afford the very products they're producing.

FIXED and THANK YOU!

[The Personist]

FIXED and THANK YOU!

Correct fix is correct.

[GeeBee]

Can we at least all agree that you're a fucking idiot if you ever mention the phrase "Communist state"?

Yes, thank you. And with all due respect to you, sir, it's a sad day when it falls to a 16-year old to point that out.

[SpacePunk]

The industrial revolution was carried out on the backs of child laborers and the poor, so as a technocrat, you could see where I imagine we could have attained the same technological advances WITHOUT the use of exploitative labor to bring about the so called "revolution" of industry.

Sure, and I agree that it would be great if exploitation was not a part of the progress.

But I don't believe that capitalism simply perpetuates greed, I believe that selfishness IS a part of human evolution and that there is NO WAY that common ownership would work in a world of 6 billion people.

Humans are not all the same.. there have always been leaders, thinkers, fighters, and followers. That is why Communism will always be hijacked by the State.

[Praetor]

Yes, thank you. And with all due respect to you, sir, it's a sad day when it falls to a 16-year old to point that out.
haha true.

[GeeBee]

Sure, and I agree that it would be great if exploitation was not a part of the progress.

But I don't believe that capitalism simply perpetuates greed, I believe that selfishness IS a part of human evolution and that there is NO WAY that common ownership would work in a world of 6 billion people.

Humans are not all the same.. there have always been leaders, thinkers, fighters, and followers. That is why Communism will always be hijacked by the State.

Selfishness is not part of human evolution. Self-interest, perhaps, but not greed. You don't see lions out killing 12 gazelles just for sport. Greed is a result of nurture, not nature.

[Praetor]

I feel like suppressing our basic, destructive human instincts (like greed) is the first step in calling ourselves a truly civilized society.

[SpacePunk]

Selfishness is not part of human evolution. Self-interest, perhaps, but not greed. You don't see lions out killing 12 gazelles just for sport. Greed is a result of nurture, not nature.

I don't see how lions killing 12 gazelles for sport is "selfish".

Although, you're right about self-interest being more appropriate than selfish..

[GeeBee]

I don't see how lions killing 12 gazelles for sport is "selfish".

Although, you're right about self-interest being more appropriate than selfish..

lion killing 12 gazelles when he only needs one to fulfill his needs = CEO making 12 million a year.

[socoxshelby]

lion killing 12 gazelles when he only needs one to fulfill his needs = CEO gives himself a 12 million bonus while his employees are suffering pay-cuts, losing benefits, and struggling to support their families.

Fixed.

[Love As Arson]

What really happens to art, music, etc., in a communist state?
First I'd like to state that it isnearly impossible to dogmatically depict what new things may arise in a new state of affairs.We must experiment and find what works best in our new society.There are some things that can be commented on,though.

Because the very way that we understand art and music now, as a touring band/big artist/etc., would essentially vanish if the U.S./most of the rest of the world didn't have a capitalist-ish economy?
Artists would have even greater means to put out their work, since they would not be constricted by label politics or having to give most of what one earns to these labels.
Do people, in a communist/Marxist society, still have the means and the rights to purchase art, therefore propelling an artist into the public eye?
One can procure art,but I imagine that success,with the destruction of the profit motive,takes on a different meaning, one which relates to the desire to convey something to their community.What's more,it could be the case that without the financial restrictions/expectations that one might see an increase in artistry.
Can a band form, and then go on tour? Without a record label, how would people outside of the area even know of the groups?
This is a form of ideology that is extremely pertinent to capitalism.That is,the idea that major corporations are the sole means through which we may disseminate our ideas.But,we know this is not the case.Technology has provided us the ability to mass produce products and communicate across the globe,so I'm not sure that criticism is on the mark.To your second point,touring wouldn't be such a financial strain;rather,one would have the means to travel,ensure they and their families are fed and this would extend beyond their home-towns

Ah, I see. So we can use the same critical lenses we have now for art in a communist society as well, then?
Yes.


And as for the first bit, I suppose what you're saying is that instead of having to define myself as "the poet," I define myself as "David," which may include and feature in large part my being "the poet," but isn't just that one category alone?
What Marx is striving to say is,you are David who creates and poetry may be one of the manifestations of your expression.

Let us suppose that we had carried out production as human beings. Each of us would have in two ways affirmed himself and the other person. 1) In my production I would have objectified my individuality, its specific character, and therefore enjoyed not only an individual manifestation of my life during the activity, but also when looking at the object I would have the individual pleasure of knowing my personality to be objective, visible to the senses and hence a power beyond all doubt. 2) In your enjoyment or use of my product I would have the direct enjoyment both of being conscious of having satisfied a human need by my work, that is, of having objectified man's essential nature, and of having thus created an object corresponding to the need of another man's essential nature. 3) I would have been for you the mediator between you and the species, and therefore would become recognised and felt by you yourself as a completion of your own essential nature and as a necessary part of yourself, and consequently would know myself to be confirmed both in your thought and your love. 4) In the individual expression of my life I would have directly created your expression of your life, and therefore in my individual activity I would have directly confirmed and realised my true nature, my human nature, my communal nature.

Our products would be so many mirrors in which we saw reflected our essential nature.

This relationship would moreover be reciprocal; what occurs on my side has also to occur on yours.

Let us review the various factors as seen in our supposition:

My work would be a free manifestation of life, hence an enjoyment of life. Presupposing private property, my work is an alienation of life, for I work in order to live, in order to obtain for myself the means of life. My work is not my life.

Secondly, the specific nature of my individuality, therefore, would be affirmed in my labour, since the latter would be an affirmation of my individual life. Labour therefore would be true, active property. Presupposing private property, my individuality is alienated to such a degree that this activity is instead hateful to me, a torment, and rather the semblance of an activity. Hence, too, it is only a forced activity and one imposed on me only through an external fortuitous need, not through an inner, essential one.

My labour can appearhttp://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/james-mill/in my object only as what it is. It cannot appear as something which by its nature it is not. Hence it appears only as the expression of my loss of self and of my powerlessness that is objective, sensuously perceptible, obvious and therefore put beyond all doubt.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/james-mill/

[caveBEAR]

First I'd like to state that it isnearly impossible to dogmatically depict what new things may arise in a new state of affairs.We must experiment and find what works best in our new society.There are some things that can be commented on,though.


Artists would have even greater means to put out their work, since they would not be constricted by label politics or having to give most of what one earns to these labels.

One can procure art,but I imagine that success,with the destruction of the profit motive,takes on a different meaning, one which relates to the desire to convey something to their community.What's more,it could be the case that without the financial restrictions/expectations that one might see an increase in artistry.

This is a form of ideology that is extremely pertinent to capitalism.That is,the idea that major corporations are the sole means through which we may disseminate our ideas.But,we know this is not the case.Technology has provided us the ability to mass produce products and communicate across the globe,so I'm not sure that criticism is on the mark.To your second point,touring wouldn't be such a financial strain;rather,one would have the means to travel,ensure they and their families are fed and this would extend beyond their home-towns


Yes.

What Marx is striving to say is,you are David who creates and poetry may be one of the manifestations of your expression.


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/james-mill/

Wow. Ha ha ha. I feel stupid. I need to start learnin' more them facts.

The downside to the lack of a music industry would be that without something making a band huge, propelling them into stardom, all that jazz, how do any acts really gain a footing? It seems to me that it would end up being reminiscent of thousands of local bands, none of them able to get any recognition because you can't reach all those people without them all coming to one source to get their commodities. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as I know plenty of people in bands who would love playing to small, 13 people, intimate crowds all the time, because that's who knows you, but I also know people who would hate that. People who want to play to as many people as possible, and it seems like they wouldn't be able to ge a footing.

How exactly does communism handle things like personal possessions? Can someone go out and buy the things needed to start a recording studio, make some albums, and then sell them to friends? How does all that work?

(I'm not trying to be antagonistic at all, just curious.)

[GeeBee]

Fixed.

Quite aptly.

[Love As Arson]

Wow. Ha ha ha. I feel stupid. I need to start learnin' more them facts.

The downside to the lack of a music industry would be that without something making a band huge, propelling them into stardom, all that jazz, how do any acts really gain a footing? It seems to me that it would end up being reminiscent of thousands of local bands, none of them able to get any recognition because you can't reach all those people without them all coming to one source to get their commodities. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as I know plenty of people in bands who would love playing to small, 13 people, intimate crowds all the time, because that's who knows you, but I also know people who would hate that. People who want to play to as many people as possible, and it seems like they wouldn't be able to ge a footing.
Right now,we have many bands playing small crowds and a small percentage of artists gaining notoriety.One of the effects of the abolition of capitalism is that the business world can no longer use its money to influence which artists receive the most exposure.This would make the playing field level and allow other bands to gain access to the broad public.


How exactly does communism handle things like personal possessions? Can someone go out and buy the things needed to start a recording studio, make some albums, and then sell them to friends? How does all that work?
Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labor of others by means of such appropriations.

[vodyanoj]

Compared to other countries, Russia is really behind.

LOL, behind in what sense?

And, as others have pointed out, neither USSR nor China were ever communist. Authoritarian/totalitarian societies that deny basic lierties to their citizens are NOT communist.

What's more, your AP teacher does not know what (s)he is talking about, since the best places in the world are specifically those that socialized the most without abandoning democratic structures. Social democracies of Scandinavia have the highest standard of living and are ahead of just about anyone else by many measures. The only complaint I may have about them is that they can be boring, a bit...:)

[saysmydoctor]

I've always admired how Marx really has addressed everything imaginable. Very prophetic in some ways. He understood how society worked...really.

[caveBEAR]

Right now,we have many bands playing small crowds and a small percentage of artists gaining notoriety.One of the effects of the abolition of capitalism is that the business world can no longer use its money to influence which artists receive the most exposure.This would make the playing field level and allow other bands to gain access to the broad public.

I like all of that, thank you. I really hope this thread keeps going, I am liking this.

LOL, behind in what sense?

And, as others have pointed out, neither USSR nor China were ever communist. Authoritarian/totalitarian societies that deny basic lierties to their citizens are NOT communist.

What's more, your AP teacher does not know what (s)he is talking about, since the best places in the world are specifically those that socialized the most without abandoning democratic structures. Social democracies of Scandinavia have the highest standard of living and are ahead of just about anyone else by many measures. The only complaint I may have about them is that they can be boring, a bit...:)

No no no no no! Don't bring her back in here. Stop!

[vodyanoj]

Not at all- in fact, I believe its much worse. At least when the government is controlling the populace, there is a face to "hate", or rebel against. These facelss corporations that run our country are invisible to the people they are oppressing, making any sort of change extremely difficult and unlikely.

Governments are also (ideally) bound by their constitutions. Also, a government is a tool that (again, ideally) is supposed to work for all of its people, not just a narrow group of shareholders.

[vodyanoj]

If you happen upon any good sources online that pertain to this, you should definitely post them.

There were all kinds of shakers, anabaptists, lollards and such who embraced forms of religious Communism. It took Marx to put it on a more solid philosophical foundation, but early anarchists played with the concept as well, Proudhon, for example.

[vodyanoj]

Well, to be fair, that's hardly an unbiased source. That would be like me going to John Yoo and asking him if it's all right if I torture some guy.

Bias is irrelevant. It is *definitive* source.

EDIT: OK, I am caught up now.:)

[vodyanoj]

I like all of that, thank you. I really hope this thread keeps going, I am liking this.



No no no no no! Don't bring her back in here. Stop!


:-d I won't do it again.

[Praetor]

Bias is irrelevant. It is *definitive* source.

EDIT: OK, I am caught up now.:)
Uh...no, bias is pretty relevant.

[Animalhill]

Governments are also (ideally) bound by their constitutions. Also, a government is a tool that (again, ideally) is supposed to work for all of its people, not just a narrow group of shareholders.
I'm glad you specified, "ideally" because in this country, it has not been that way for a long time.
There were all kinds of shakers, anabaptists, lollards and such who embraced forms of religious Communism. It took Marx to put it on a more solid philosophical foundation, but early anarchists played with the concept as well, Proudhon, for example.
Word. Mad thanks- time to do some reading.

[vodyanoj]

I'm glad you specified, "ideally" because in this country, it has not been that way for a long time.

Word. Mad thanks- time to do some reading.

Oh, I am well aware of that. But even with all of the lack of recourse and accountability, the government is still more responsive to the needs of the people than a corporation. And even the power of the market does not affect a nice powerful multinational, since they artificially create a demand for their product.

[Animalhill]

Oh, I am well aware of that. But even with all of the lack of recourse and accountability, the government is still more responsive to the needs of the people than a corporation. And even the power of the market does not affect a nice powerful multinational, since they artificially create a demand for their product.
I'm not sure of the argument you are trying to make...

[Praetor]

I'm not sure of the argument you are trying to make...
I think he's saying that a government is more accountable to its citizens than a corporation is to its consumers.

[Animalhill]

I think he's saying that a government is more accountable to its citizens than a corporation is to its consumers.
That's what I thought. I fully agree.

[saysmydoctor]

I'd say hardly more accountable considering that these representatives (especially them) and at a state level, state senators and assemblymen have the ability to draw and gerrymander their districts to the point where fuckheads like Charlie Rangel can win his district with 98%. Government is more accountable, but it's hardly noticeable.

[vodyanoj]

I'm not sure of the argument you are trying to make...

I would say that I trust the democratically elected government slightly more than an hierarchical, unaccountable corporation. Of course I trust an ad hoc committee formed for the purpose of solving a given problem the mandate of which does not extend beyond the problem at hand and is dissolved as soon as a solution is implemented even more.

[vodyanoj]

I'd say hardly more accountable considering that these representatives (especially them) and at a state level, state senators and assemblymen have the ability to draw and gerrymander their districts to the point where fuckheads like Charlie Rangel can win his district with 98%. Government is more accountable, but it's hardly noticeable.

Agreed, at least in the USA. Elsewhere the situation is quite a bit better (I bring up, again, my favourite Scandinavian social democracies, where power is devolved to local level as much as possible and many specific decisions are not even made by the government but by specific committies and organizations set up for that task). Also, the fact is that we, the people, do have some degree of control over the democratically elected representatives, even if we seldom exercise it.

On the other hand, the only way to fight against big business (short of a violent revolution) is via boycotts and lawsuits. Lawsuits are seldom successful, since under capitalistic society the law is set up to favour business over individual. And boycotts can make some difference, but are virtually useless against a really powerful zaibatsu: they can move their production elsewhere to retaliate and open new markets easily to counteract the effects of a boycott. They have the power, an indecent amount of control over media, economies of scale, and quite often, the state itself on their side. And miscellaneous WTO agreements further erode the power of state to resist them.

[MyNameIsRoss]

I need to read the manifesto.

[GeeBee]

I need to read the manifesto.

Then read "Cement", by Fyodor Gladkov.

[MyNameIsRoss]

Ok, I will.

[Praetor]

I need to read the manifesto.
Fuck the Manifesto, read Kapital.

[MyNameIsRoss]

Ok, I will.

[joe has a cat]

I finally got around to reading the manifesto the other week. Good read.

[zach]

Fuck the Manifesto, read Kapital.

QFT

[vodyanoj]

Fuck the Manifesto, read Kapital.

That's a major investment of time and effort, though. Manifesto provides an overview and one can decide whether one wants to go further after reading it.

[macabre]

That's a major investment of time and effort, though. Manifesto provides an overview and one can decide whether one wants to go further after reading it.

Seriously, it's not like that book is an easy read either. I'm attacking the book slowly and honestly I'm probably only going to read Volume 1 because there's no way I have enough time to read all ~2,000 pages.

[GeeBee]

Seriously, it's not like that book is an easy read either. I'm attacking the book slowly and honestly I'm probably only going to read Volume 1 because there's no way I have enough time to read all ~2,000 pages.

Aw, too bad. They don't get off the island until Volume 4.

[macabre]

Aw, too bad. They don't get off the island until Volume 4.

Never would've seen that coming!

[vodyanoj]

Seriously, it's not like that book is an easy read either. I'm attacking the book slowly and honestly I'm probably only going to read Volume 1 because there's no way I have enough time to read all ~2,000 pages.

And don't forget that much of his analysis applies to the specific conditions of mid-XIXth Century and has been obsoleted, so after Kapital you'd have to read a bunch of modern Marxists and neo-Marxists for updated interpretations...It's kind of a lifetime effort, which is why most Marxists (and, to be honest, the followers of other schools) have no clue about the others' ideas. It's as Krugman noted a couple of months ago: all the Chicaog-school Friedmanites do not know anything about Keynesianism (and neo- and post-Keynesianims) except for that it's all bad. And then they rediscover its basic principles and all of a sudden start applying them, and repeating the same mistakes that the early Keynesians made and fail again, thereby confirming ther belief that it is all bad.

[Love As Arson]

Never would've seen that coming!
I highly recommend this version of the Manifesto:
http://www.amazon.com/Communist-Manifesto-Historys-Important-Political/dp/1931859256

[macabre]

I highly recommend this version of the Manifesto:
http://www.amazon.com/Communist-Manifesto-Historys-Important-Political/dp/1931859256

Do you know of any reading companions to Capital?

[Love As Arson]

Do you know of any reading companions to Capital?
http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Marxs-Capital-Anthony-Brewer/dp/0521276764/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a

This article gives a brief overview of the work:

http://isreview.org/issues/49/capital.shtml

[macabre]

http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Marxs-Capital-Anthony-Brewer/dp/0521276764/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a

This article gives a brief overview of the work:

http://isreview.org/issues/49/capital.shtml

THANK YOU

[dejaxentendu]

im very content with the way this thread turned out.

marxism and communism is so misunderstood.. especially by our generation the generation that raised us/our parents was around for the 1st ( 1910 to 1920 )and 2nd red scare (1945 to around 1960) mostly and has grown up with such a negative connotation in mind and then passed down that same negative connotation to our generation.


what does everyone think about communes?
i think it might be the best way to live out marxism these days everyone there wants to be there and work for the common good cant get much better than that? downside: your stuck simultaneously in the capitalist system. could get dicy

[dejaxentendu]

Communism would NEVER work because humans are inherently selfish.

Capitalism and competition has inspired technological advances much more quickly than a true communist society ever would.

I think its fair to assume that if global communism with stateless societies took over in the early 20th century, Man would still not have set foot on the moon.


most educated argument on the thread.

well then there is people like me and all other commies who are equally unmotivated by capitalism as you say "humans" are unmotivated by communism.

I think man wouldve gotten there faster with communism. more government funding since everyones wealth goes to the government. and people in communist countries have much more nationalistic fervor than people in capitalist countries like america who all well.... hate america

[open mind]

im very content with the way this thread turned out.

marxism and communism is so misunderstood.. especially by our generation the generation that raised us/our parents was around for the 1st ( 1910 to 1920 )and 2nd red scare (1945 to around 1960) mostly and has grown up with such a negative connotation in mind and then passed down that same negative connotation to our generation.


what does everyone think about communes?
i think it might be the best way to live out marxism these days everyone there wants to be there and work for the common good cant get much better than that? downside: your stuck simultaneously in the capitalist system. could get dicy

the only communes that have been successful in the long term are monastaries and convents, and i'm not that religious.

[open mind]

I think man wouldve gotten there faster with communism. more government funding since everyones wealth goes to the government. and people in communist countries have much more nationalistic fervor than people in capitalist countries like america who all well.... hate america

if there's never been a truly communist country you can't really say how nationalistic the people in communist countries are.

[GeeBee]

the only communes that have been successful in the long term are monastaries and convents, and i'm not that religious.

Or that celibate :-d

[vodyanoj]

the only communes that have been successful in the long term are monastaries and convents, and i'm not that religious.

What is long-term? There are communes in Sweden and UK that have been going to 40 years and evolved into co-ops producing some good for trade with the outside world. One of the reasons they lasted is the rather stringent barriers to enrty: you have to be approved by consensus and are on probation for some time after entry. That keeps bums and troublemakers out.

[vodyanoj]

Or that celibate :-d

I have considered a vow of celibacy, on occasion, and even recently...I don't think I could pull it off, though.

[GeeBee]

I have considered a vow of celibacy, on occasion, and even recently...I don't think I could pull it off, though.

Self-deprivation can be considered a way to build character and delayed gratification, in certain reasonable doses.

In large, drawn-out doses...it's simple sadism.

[vodyanoj]

Self-deprivation can be considered a way to build character and delayed gratification, in certain reasonable doses.

In large, drawn-out doses...it's simple sadism.

Sadism? Towards all those girls lusting after me? :-d I would have thought it to be more masochistic.

But yes, for a certain, limited period of time, it may even be productive. All this time I am involved in thoughts and actions of sexual nature, not to mention the energy, could be spent in a crash-research program, or writing the Great American Novel.

[GeeBee]

Sadism? Towards all those girls lusting after me? :-d I would have thought it to be more masochistic.

But yes, for a certain, limited period of time, it may even be productive. All this time I am involved in thoughts and actions of sexual nature, not to mention the energy, could be spent in a crash-research program, or writing the Great American Novel.

Knew you'd catch my drift ;-)

[jawstheme]

This thread kicks ass

[open mind]

What is long-term? There are communes in Sweden and UK that have been going to 40 years and evolved into co-ops producing some good for trade with the outside world. One of the reasons they lasted is the rather stringent barriers to enrty: you have to be approved by consensus and are on probation for some time after entry. That keeps bums and troublemakers out.

40 years isn't bad at all, but i was thinking a hundred plus years.

[saysmydoctor]

I had a conversation with a very libertarian individual and realized, that aside from economic issues...we are very much similar.

[Praetor]

I had a conversation with a very libertarian individual and realized, that aside from economic issues...we are very much similar.
*Libertarian?

[MyNameIsRoss]

A Social-Libertarian would be even more similar.

[GeeBee]

The word "libertarian" anymore is like the term "rock music". It's become so ambiguous and arbitrary that it means pretty much nothing to label yourself as such anymore. Bill Maher and Glenn Beck both claim to be libertarians.

[Praetor]

I can't reconcile Bill Maher's self-ascribed libertarian beliefs with something like this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/new-rule-smart-president_b_253996.html). I can kind of see where he's coming from...but still.

[GeeBee]

I can't reconcile Bill Maher's self-ascribed libertarian beliefs with something like this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/new-rule-smart-president_b_253996.html). I can kind of see where he's coming from...but still.

I don't get the connection you're making. He's simply responding to the nationwide conservative butt-hurt that resulted from his assertion that America was "stupid". Given the statistics he sites, I can't say I disagree with him.

How does that run counter to "libertarian beliefs"?

[Praetor]

I don't get the connection you're making. He's simply responding to the nationwide conservative butt-hurt that resulted from his assertion that America was "stupid". Given the statistics he sites, I can't say I disagree with him.

How does that run counter to "libertarian beliefs"?
Well, just look at what the opposite of libertarianism is - authoritarianism. And here, Maher is making the case loud and clear for an elite authority of people to make decisions for the majority on the basis that the majority is stupid.

Like I said, I can sympathize to a degree. For example, looking at all the problems California is in right now, it's pretty easy for me to get riled up about their shitty referendum system. But I don't think I necessarily agree with it as a general philosophy.

[GeeBee]

Well, just look at what the opposite of libertarianism is - authoritarianism. And here, Maher is making the case loud and clear for an elite authority of people to make decisions for the majority on the basis that the majority is stupid.

Like I said, I can sympathize to a degree. For example, looking at all the problems California is in right now, it's pretty easy for me to get riled up about their shitty referendum system. But I don't think I necessarily agree with it as a general philosophy.

I didn't pull that from his post. What I pulled from it is that people need to make more informed decisions, or else (as was the case since 2004) the moronic minority will continue to dictate decisions for the country.

EDIT: I can, however, see what you're saying, and appreciate the point of view you provided.

[Praetor]

I didn't pull that from his post. What I pulled from it is that people need to make more informed decisions, or else (as was the case since 2004) the moronic minority will continue to dictate decisions for the country.
And if you want to call me an elitist for this, I say thank you. Yes, I want decisions made by an elite group of people who know what they're talking about. That means Obama budget director Peter Orszag, not Sarah Palin. Which is the way our founding fathers wanted it. James Madison wrote that "pure democracy" doesn't work because "there is nothing to check... an obnoxious individual." Then, in the margins, he doodled a picture of Joe the Plumber.

To me, that sounds like a pretty clear case for authoritarianism.

[GeeBee]

And if you want to call me an elitist for this, I say thank you. Yes, I want decisions made by an elite group of people who know what they're talking about. That means Obama budget director Peter Orszag, not Sarah Palin. Which is the way our founding fathers wanted it. James Madison wrote that "pure democracy" doesn't work because "there is nothing to check... an obnoxious individual." Then, in the margins, he doodled a picture of Joe the Plumber.

I gotcha.

Still, I don't necessarily think such an opinion excludes him from a "libertarian" ideology, which, back to my original point...has lost any central theme and has become so completely fluid that any schmoe can call himself a "libertarian".

[vodyanoj]

And if you want to call me an elitist for this, I say thank you. Yes, I want decisions made by an elite group of people who know what they're talking about. That means Obama budget director Peter Orszag, not Sarah Palin. Which is the way our founding fathers wanted it. James Madison wrote that "pure democracy" doesn't work because "there is nothing to check... an obnoxious individual." Then, in the margins, he doodled a picture of Joe the Plumber.

To me, that sounds like a pretty clear case for authoritarianism.

A decision on the course of action should be made by someone qualified. You wouldn't want Sarah Palin teaching quantum field theory, yes? Political decisions are of the same kind. But the mandate to make such decisions only extends over the area in which a given individual is an expert. That is not authoritarianism, since decision-making powers are distributed over the population.

But yes, there will aways be people who should not be entrusted with cleaning toilets. Such is life.

[GeeBee]

A decision on the course of action should be made by someone qualified. You wouldn't want Sarah Palin teaching quantum field theory, yes? Political decisions are of the same kind. But the mandate to make such decisions only extends over the area in which a given individual is an expert. That is not authoritarianism, since decision-making powers are distributed over the population.

But yes, there will aways be people who should not be entrusted with cleaning toilets. Such is life.

I wouldn't mind Sarah Palin teaching quantum field theory OR cleaning toilets. Sounds like the best night of laugh-fest I can imagine.

[Praetor]

A decision on the course of action should be made by someone qualified. You wouldn't want Sarah Palin teaching quantum field theory, yes? Political decisions are of the same kind. But the mandate to make such decisions only extends over the area in which a given individual is an expert. That is not authoritarianism, since decision-making powers are distributed over the population.

But yes, there will aways be people who should not be entrusted with cleaning toilets. Such is life.
You know what, you're right. I misinterpreted his statement.

[PaulKariya]

Why do communists still rely upon the discredited Labor Theory of Value? The LTV has no real meaning at all. It attempts to find an objective value of goods, and goods are only valued subjectively by individuals.

[macabre]

Why do communists still rely upon the discredited Labor Theory of Value? The LTV has no real meaning at all. It attempts to find an objective value of goods, and goods are only valued subjectively by individuals.

Because without a labor theory of value, the whole notion of surplus value falls apart.

[EIH]

If you like Communism then you should move to China. Then you wouldn't be able to access this forum because it would be blocked! hahahah

[Praetor]

If you like Communism then you should move to China. Then you wouldn't be able to access this forum because it would be blocked! hahahah
Two posts in and I already hate you.

[saysmydoctor]

If you like Communism then you should move to China. Then you wouldn't be able to access this forum because it would be blocked! hahahah
I SPY WITH MY LITTLE EYES, SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

[macabre]

They should teach that central planning and communism are not the same thing in school. It would reduce a lot of the ignorance on the subject.

[GeeBee]

Why do communists still rely upon the discredited Labor Theory of Value? The LTV has no real meaning at all. It attempts to find an objective value of goods, and goods are only valued subjectively by individuals.
Please don't bring your austrian school of economics bullshit into yet another thread. It's old, tired, utopian, and useless.
They should teach that central planning and communism are not the same thing in school. It would reduce a lot of the ignorance on the subject.
Methinks it was alot easier for the powers that be to frighten people out of communism by teaching them that Stalin and Mao were "doing it rite".

[MyNameIsRoss]

Methinks it was alot easier for the powers that be to frighten people out of communism by teaching them that Stalin and Mao were "doing it rite".


Yeah, I remember my high school social studies teacher pretty much just said "The US is a democracy, The USSR was a communist-dictatorship." There were probably about 4-5 pages in our text-books on Marx/The Soviet Union combined..

[derekmoyer4]

i myself am an anti-capitalist marxist. long live karl marx.

[Praetor]

i myself am an anti-capitalist marxist. long live karl marx.
http://www.moremusic.fi/jpics/Punk_as_Fuck_Patch.jpg

You have earned this. Wear it with honor.

[vodyanoj]

i myself am an anti-capitalist marxist. long live karl marx.

I myself am more with Bakunin/Kropotkin/Makhno school, but Marx had some very valuable insights as well...

[GeeBee]

You have earned this. Wear it with honor.

:lol:

[zach]

I myself am more with Bakunin/Kropotkin/Makhno school, but Marx had some very valuable insights as well...

It's kinda funny, because I'm definetly more black than red, but I respect Marx a hell of a lot more than Bakunin.

[PaulKariya]

Please don't bring your austrian school of economics bullshit into yet another thread. It's old, tired, utopian, and useless.

So you don't have an answer? Tell me how you can figure out an objective price for a good.

[macabre]

So you don't have an answer? Tell me how you can figure out an objective price for a good.

Why do the Austrians reject empiricism and believe in a non-falsifiable economic doctrine that relies on highly questionable assumptions?

[PaulKariya]

Why do the Austrians reject empiricism and believe in a non-falsifiable economic doctrine that relies on highly questionable assumptions?

The empirical scientific method is effective only in the natural sciences. And only insofar as the scientist is able to control the experiment, the elements of the experiment are simple and few, and the correlations that result are enormous and can't be easily explained in any other way. Statistical economics fails on all three counts. Statistical treatments of natural science in which these criteria are not met also fail (like climate modelling).

Yes, the natural sciences which met the criteria I outlined above achieved more success with inductive methods than with the deductive methods of the past. But the social sciences haven't shared any of that success with inductive methods. In fact, every single one of the economic laws that are considered uncontroversial by even mainstream economists were discovered by the causal-realist approach of pre-positivist economics. There is not a single non-contentious economic law derived from the attempts to ape the scientific method of the natural sciences, even among the mainstreamers.

I suggest reading Economic Science and The Austrian Method, of Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

[Duexy]

Actually, in many projects, men leave the family structure very early on, something that began back when welfare began. See, back then, if the men were around, the families didn't get welfare. So the fathers started out by staying away from the home on the hours a welfare agent could show up, then they stayed away longer, then longer, then never came back. This happened to most families in projects, which has then bred a system of men not staying with the families they create. Many women, as well, find that they get more done by living in more of a 'favor' system, in which one woman watches kids, one does laundry, one makes food, etc, all looking out for each other rather than the dismal pay rates that await them at the jobs available for them. It's called the Underground Economy, very interesting.

I read a book a while back called Gang Leader for a Day (I think) that was about a graduate student doing a study on urban poverty inside of Chicago's Robert Taylor projects. It's a true story and alot of the things in the above post is mentioned throughout the book. Pretty good read.

[vodyanoj]

So you don't have an answer? Tell me how you can figure out an objective price for a good.

One immediately thinks about the units of energy (adjusted for the availability and ease of access of the source of energy) required to produce a good. Oh well, we have known that the austrian school does not live in a real world, something that Herman Daly (http://www.publicpolicy.umd.edu/facstaff/faculty/Daly.html) pointed out repeatedly.

[vodyanoj]

The empirical scientific method is effective only in the natural sciences. And only insofar as the scientist is able to control the experiment, the elements of the experiment are simple and few, and the correlations that result are enormous and can't be easily explained in any other way. Statistical economics fails on all three counts. Statistical treatments of natural science in which these criteria are not met also fail (like climate modelling).

Yes, the natural sciences which met the criteria I outlined above achieved more success with inductive methods than with the deductive methods of the past. But the social sciences haven't shared any of that success with inductive methods. In fact, every single one of the economic laws that are considered uncontroversial by even mainstream economists were discovered by the causal-realist approach of pre-positivist economics. There is not a single non-contentious economic law derived from the attempts to ape the scientific method of the natural sciences, even among the mainstreamers.

I suggest reading Economic Science and The Austrian Method, of Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

LOL. Keep on digging, comrade.

[PaulKariya]

One immediately thinks about the units of energy (adjusted for the availability and ease of access of the source of energy) required to produce a good. Oh well, we have known that the austrian school does not live in a real world, something that Herman Daly (http://www.publicpolicy.umd.edu/facstaff/faculty/Daly.html) pointed out repeatedly.

You still haven't shown me how objective prices for goods can be figured out. I don't like Macs - even if it took 10, 000 labor hours to build one Mac the value to me would still be zero.

You obviously know nothing about economics if you still accept the laughable LTV.

[PaulKariya]

LOL. Keep on digging, comrade.

LOL. Keep on ignoring arguments because you have no cohesive rebuttal, comrade.

[macabre]

You still haven't shown me how objective prices for goods can be figured out. I don't like Macs - even if it took 10, 000 labor hours to build one Mac the value to me would still be zero.

You obviously know nothing about economics if you still accept the laughable LTV.

Personally, I think the marginal theory of value makes the most sense but I wouldn't call LTV laughable. I mean, some of the most influential economic thinkers of all time accepted it and for their time, I think they were correct. Markets were still in their infant stages and a marginal theory of value wouldn't have made sense in that context, consumers were not yet a driving force in the economy. To me, It seems a bit difficult for one to hold on to LTV today and some Marxists have actually incorporated marginalism into their view of exploitation but the historical significance of LTV is undeniable and I still think it warrants some respect.

[vodyanoj]

You still haven't shown me how objective prices for goods can be figured out. I don't like Macs - even if it took 10, 000 labor hours to build one Mac the value to me would still be zero.

You obviously know nothing about economics if you still accept the laughable LTV.

Who cares what its value is to you? You either buy it or not, and if you do, it has a specific value. Nobody buys good they do not like just because they happen to be on sale. And extraneous costs are not in question here; we are speaking specifically of the value of some good which can be objectively calculated.

EDIT: I am sure that all the neo- and post-Keynesians know nothing about economics either.

[vodyanoj]

The empirical scientific method is effective only in the natural sciences. And only insofar as the scientist is able to control the experiment, the elements of the experiment are simple and few, and the correlations that result are enormous and can't be easily explained in any other way. Statistical economics fails on all three counts. Statistical treatments of natural science in which these criteria are not met also fail (like climate modelling).

That is one of the most ignorant statements I ahve seen in a long time, BTW. Spoken like a sociologist.