Every day, five U.S. soldiers try to kill themselves.

[keepitwolf]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Every day, five U.S. soldiers try to kill themselves. Before the Iraq war began, that figure was less than one suicide attempt a day.
The dramatic increase is revealed in new U.S. Army figures, which show 2,100 soldiers tried to commit suicide in 2007.
"Suicide attempts are rising and have risen over the last five years," said Col. Elspeth Cameron-Ritchie, an Army psychiatrist.
Concern over the rate of suicide (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Suicide) attempts prompted Sen. Jim Webb, D-Virginia, to introduce legislation Thursday to improve the military's suicide-prevention programs.
"Our troops and their families are under unprecedented levels of stress due to the pace and frequency of more than five years of deployments," Webb said in a written statement. http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/tabs/video.gif Watch CNN Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre on the reasons for the increase in suicides » (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/01/military.suicides/index.html#cnnSTCVideo)
Sen. Patty Murray, D-Washington, took to the Senate floor Thursday, urging more help for military members, especially for those returning from war.
"Our brave service members who face deployment after deployment without the rest, recovery and treatment they need are at the breaking point," Murray said.
She said Congress has given "hundreds of millions of dollars" to the military to improve its ability to provide mental health treatment, but said it will take more than money to resolve the problem.
"It takes leadership and it takes a change in the culture of war," she said. She said some soldiers had reported receiving nothing more than an 800 number to call for help.
"Many soldiers need a real person to talk to," she said. "And they need psychiatrists and they need psychologists."
According to Army (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/U_S_Army_Activities) statistics, the incidence of U.S. Army soldiers attempting suicide or inflicting injuries on themselves has skyrocketed in the nearly five years since the start of the Iraq (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Iraq) war.
Last year's 2,100 attempted suicides -- an average of more than 5 per day -- compares with about 350 suicide attempts in 2002, the year before the war in Iraq began, according to the Army.
Don't Miss


Study: PTSD, not brain injury, may cause vets' symptoms (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/01/30/brain.injury/index.html?iref=newssearch)
The figures also show the number of suicides by active-duty troops in 2007 may reach an all-time high when the statistics are finalized in March, Army officials said.
The Army lists 89 soldier deaths in 2007 as suicides and is investigating 32 more as possible suicides. Suicide rates already were up in 2006 with 102 deaths, compared with 87 in 2005.
Cameron-Ritchie, the Army psychiatrist, said suicide attempts are usually related to problems with intimate relationships, but they are also related to problems with work, finances and the law.
"The really tough area here is stigma. We know that soldiers don't want to go seek care. They're tough, they're strong, they don't want to go see a behavioral health-care provider," Cameron-Ritchie said.
Multiple deployments and long deployments appear to exact a toll on relationships, thereby boosting the number of suicide attempts, she said.
Traditionally, the suicide rate among military members has been lower than age- and gender-matched civilians. But in recent years the rate has crept up from 12 per 100,000 among the military to 17.5 per 100,000 in 2006, she said. That's still less than the civilian figure of about 20 per 100,000, she said.
The "typical" soldier who commits suicide is a member of an infantry unit who uses a firearm to carry out the act, according to the Army.
Post-traumatic stress disorder also may be a factor in suicide attempts, Cameron-Ritchie said, because it can result in broken relationships and often leads to drug and alcohol abuse.
"The real central issue is relationships. Relationships, relationships, relationships," said U.S. Army Chaplain Lt. Col. Ran Dolinger. "People look at PTSD, they look at length of deployments ... but it's that broken relationship that really makes the difference."
To reduce suicides, the Army said it is targeting soldiers who are or have been in Iraq for long periods and teaching them to notice signs that can lead to suicide.
That training came too late for Army Specialist Tim Bowman. The 23-year-old killed himself in 2005 after returning from Iraq.
"As my family was preparing for a 2005 Thanksgiving meal, our son Timothy was lying on the floor, slowly bleeding to death from a self-inflicted gunshot wound," said his father, Mike Bowman, in testimony to a House Veterans' Affairs committee hearing in December. "His war was now over."
http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/content/ads/advertisement.gif


He said veterans return home to find an "understaffed, under-funded, under-equipped" Veterans Affairs mental health system.
"Many just give up trying," he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/01/military.suicides/index.html

[mattmatumbo]

I don't see why we have these guys and gals go out into horrendous battle situations, then expect them to not have any dangerous mental conditions caused by it. It's absurd.

[keepitwolf]

It's also very sad.

[zach]

I don't see why we have these guys and gals go out into horrendous battle situations, then expect them to not have any dangerous mental conditions caused by it. It's absurd.

I know! I mean, in all other areas of society we're so sensitive to mental health needs!
/sarcasm

I mean, I know this is a big problem, and it's pretty obvious what the direct cause of it is, but this a problem that reaches much further than suicidal servicepeople. Despite the wealth of information we have we still live in a society that aproaches mental illness with the mentality that if we don't talk about it it will go away, it isn't just confined to the military.

[GeeBee]

Needs to be like the old days...when the President was on the front lines of the wars he waged.

[keepitwolf]

Needs to be like the old days...when the President was on the front lines of the wars he waged.This.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

Needs to be like the old days...when the President was on the front lines of the wars he waged.

or we could just not wage wars?

/ unrealistic idealism

[GeeBee]

or we could just not wage wars?

/ unrealistic idealism

Humans are like every other familial animal...they wage wars. Unfortunately, we're the only species that has the technology to wipe itself and all others out in so doing.

[zach]

Needs to be like the old days...when the President was on the front lines of the wars he waged.
YES! AND BRING BACK MELEE WARFARE! EVERYTHING ELSE IS FOR SKINNY WIMPPIES!

[zach]

or we could just not wage wars?

/ unrealistic idealism

I don't really think it's unrealistic to expect that the people who start and carryout wars be expected to actually fight in them. If that was the case we wouldn't go around attacking countries we can't locate on the map so willy nilly.

[GeeBee]

YES! AND BRING BACK MELEE WARFARE! EVERYTHING ELSE IS FOR SKINNY WIMPPIES!

Melee hand-to-hand with no armor or weapons. Be real men.

[kanyewong]

we should only be able to use daggers and nunchuks

[GeeBee]

we should only be able to use daggers and nunchuks

And swords and bows. Like the original turtles once did.

[GeeBee]

I don't see why we have these guys and gals go out into horrendous battle situations, then expect them to not have any dangerous mental conditions caused by it. It's absurd.

To be fair...
It's not like we have a conscripted army. People make the decision to join the armed forces, well aware of the U.S.'s standing in the world. Not saying anyone deserves the mental ramifications of war, simply stating that it would be much worse if we didn't have a volunteer army.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

I don't really think it's unrealistic to expect that the people who start and carryout wars be expected to actually fight in them. If that was the case we wouldn't go around attacking countries we can't locate on the map so willy nilly.

true.

i meant that the idea/goal that there should/could be no more wars is unrealistic.

GeeBee already touched on this.

[zach]

true.

i meant that the idea/goal that there should/could be no more wars is unrealistic.

GeeBee already touched on this.

I don't know man. I guess it just depends on how you would define "war." I think that there will always be conflict, but I also think that in general people like working together and helping eachother more than they like fighting with eachother.

[Sventhegreat]

I don't see why we have these guys and gals go out into horrendous battle situations, then expect them to not have any dangerous mental conditions caused by it. It's absurd.

You have no idea how you'll react in a situation like that, regardless of all the video games or movies you've seen. Some people can just naturally handle more than others, that's just how we're wired.

[GeeBee]

I don't know man. I guess it just depends on how you would define "war." I think that there will always be conflict, but I also think that in general people like working together and helping eachother more than they like fighting with eachother.

No. There will always be war. Every organism from us on down to microbes wages "war" in some fashion to perpetuate their dominance/survival.

Also, I think the idea that people in general are helpful and enjoy working together is completely false. The extent to which we cooperate is the extent to which we find playing social roles to be helpful in our survival. Anything beyond that is either non-genuine, or borne of an ulterior motive.

[zach]

I don't think you understand the difference between opinion and fact.
No. There will always be war.
Prove it.
Every organism from us on down to microbes wages "war" in some fashion to perpetuate their dominance/survival.
Here I would draw the distinction between "war" and "conflict". Conflicts happen every day, are usually the result of an immediate problem between two people or small groups of people and are resolved reletivly quickly with minimal damage. War is often born from conflict, but tends to last for extended periods of time, invlolves large groups of people, usually drawn along political lines, and inflicts emence damage. Because of this I think it's absurd to argue that all organisms engage in some type of warfare. Animals don't organize themselves into politcal factions and fight for years untill one faction is the clear winner. They fight once, get it over with and then go about their lives. And further more, what disguisshes humans from other organism is our (theoretical) ability to reason, which really makes the animal kingdom argument rather moot.

Also, I think the idea that people in general are helpful and enjoy working together is completely false. The extent to which we cooperate is the extent to which we find playing social roles to be helpful in our survival. Anything beyond that is either non-genuine, or borne of an ulterior motive.
Prove it.

[GeeBee]

I don't think you understand the difference between opinion and fact.

Prove it.

Here I would draw the distinction between "war" and "conflict". Conflicts happen every day, are usually the result of an immediate problem between two people or small groups of people and are resolved reletivly quickly with minimal damage. War is often born from conflict, but tends to last for extended periods of time, invlolves large groups of people, usually drawn along political lines, and inflicts emence damage. Because of this I think it's absurd to argue that all organisms engage in some type of warfare. Animals don't organize themselves into politcal factions and fight for years untill one faction is the clear winner. They fight once, get it over with and then go about their lives. And further more, what disguisshes humans from other organism is our (theoretical) ability to reason, which really makes the animal kingdom argument rather moot.


Prove it.

Apparently you never got around to reading "The Lucifer Principle" did you? Read that, then get back to me.
Not to mention, history pretty much affirms that humans are a war-mongering race, and pretty much disproves the idea that we're "generally pretty nice". The proof is in the pudding. Regardless of what we "should" do as a result of our reasoning capacity, we DO wage wars on a pretty regular basis.

I wasn't comparing our wars to organisms. I was saying our wars are fought for the same reasons the animal kingdoms fight. Turf, dominance, and survival.

Don't make an assertion without any proof, only to then ask me to "prove" my rejection of your assertions.

[zach]

I don't think you understand the difference between stating an opinion and asserting something as fact.
Apparently you never got around to reading "The Lucifer Principle" did you? Read that, then get back to me.
I don't argue with ad hominem. If you care to be taken seriously I'd suggest you do t he same.

Not to mention, history pretty much affirms that humans are a war-mongering race, and pretty much disproves the idea that we're "generally pretty nice". The proof is in the pudding. Regardless of what we "should" do as a result of our reasoning capacity, we DO wage wars on a pretty regular basis.
I'm guessing you don't have much of a historical background. Otherwise you'd understand that there is no agreed upon interpretation of the entirety of human history and why things happend the way they did. Nobody is arguing that there isn't a narritive of near constant warefare. They argument is over why this happens and that's a totally different discussion. You're positing that war happens pretty much just cause that's what people do. If that's the stance you want take, then yeah, you kind of have to provide proof.

I wasn't comparing our wars to organisms. I was saying our wars are fought for the same reasons the animal kingdoms fight. Turf, dominance, and survival.
That's a pretty direct comparison there, Cheif.

Don't make an assertion without any proof, only to then ask me to "prove" my rejection of your assertions.
I don't think you know what "Assertion" means.
as⋅ser⋅tion  /əˈsɜrʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-sur-shuhn] Show IPA
Use assertion in a Sentence
See web results for assertion
See images of assertion
–noun 1. a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason: a mere assertion; an unwarranted assertion.
2. an act of asserting.

.'. through the use of the phrase "I think" my statement is not an assertion as it is not a positive statement, but rather quite the opposite, and as such require no proof to support because there really nothing is to support except weather or not that's what I actually think. You on the other hand provided no such phrases to indicate that you were communicating anything but fact, so yeah, you kind have to provide proof to back it up. You made the positive statment, so the onus is on you to prove it. That's how logic works.

[GeeBee]

I don't think you understand the difference between stating an opinion and asserting something as fact.

I don't argue with ad hominem. If you care to be taken seriously I'd suggest you do t he same.


I'm guessing you don't have much of a historical background. Otherwise you'd understand that there is no agreed upon interpretation of the entirety of human history and why things happend the way they did. Nobody is arguing that there isn't a narritive of near constant warefare. They argument is over why this happens and that's a totally different discussion. You're positing that war happens pretty much just cause that's what people do. If that's the stance you want take, then yeah, you kind of have to provide proof.

I wasn't comparing our wars to organisms. I was saying our wars are fought for the same reasons the animal kingdoms fight. Turf, dominance, and survival.


I don't think you know what "Assertion" means.
as⋅ser⋅tion  /əˈsɜrʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-sur-shuhn] Show IPA
Use assertion in a Sentence
See web results for assertion
See images of assertion
–noun 1. a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason: a mere assertion; an unwarranted assertion.
2. an act of asserting.

.'. through the use of the phrase "I think" my statement is not an assertion as it is not a positive statement, but rather quite the opposite, and as such require no proof to support because there really nothing is to support except weather or not that's what I actually think. You on the other hand provided no such phrases to indicate that you were communicating anything but fact, so yeah, you kind have to provide proof to back it up. You made the positive statment, so the onus is on you to prove it. That's how logic works.

Outstanding.

[jawstheme]

To be fair...
It's not like we have a conscripted army. People make the decision to join the armed forces, well aware of the U.S.'s standing in the world. Not saying anyone deserves the mental ramifications of war, simply stating that it would be much worse if we didn't have a volunteer army.

I agree. If there was a draft it would be much more inhumane, but these soldiers did join the military voluntarily, knowing the possibility of warfare. I disagree with the current war situation, but these soldiers are technically doing the jobs they signed for right?

[zach]

Outstanding.
I know, things like common sense and reason can be a little mind blowing to people who aren't used to it.

[GeeBee]

I agree. If there was a draft it would be much more inhumane, but these soldiers did join the military voluntarily, knowing the possibility of warfare. I disagree with the current war situation, but these soldiers are technically doing the jobs they signed for right?

Truth.

[zach]

I agree. If there was a draft it would be much more inhumane, but these soldiers did join the military voluntarily, knowing the possibility of warfare. I disagree with the current war situation, but these soldiers are technically doing the jobs they signed for right?
This is exactly why I think that in this day and age to say "I was just following orders" is complete bullshit.

[GeeBee]

I know, things like common sense and reason can be a little mind blowing to people who aren't used to it.

Picking petty fights on internet forums is a true testament to yours.
Enjoy your new digs on my ignore list.

[zach]

Picking petty fights on internet forums is a true testament to yours.
Enjoy your new digs on my ignore list.

I started no fights. I asked you to prove some positve statments you made, and you started throwing around ad hominem and stating more opinions as fact. Now that I've called you out on it you're acting like a baby. I'm really not worried about what this says about me, because the entire exchange is there for everybody to read, and it's pretty obvious who was able to make solid ration points and who wasn't. Feel free to ignore me, but it won't make you look any less foolish.

[GeeBee]

Do you always act like a baby when you're wrong?

I obviously don't place as much value on being "right" on an internet forum as you do. If you want to do a victory dance, be my guest. I don't even know what you were arguing in the first place, and honestly don't give a shit.

[thursday727]

i'm just curious as to why Vietnam , Gulf , and Iraq War vets suffer from PTSD but you never hear about it from WW2 vets and that war was much more brutal.

[GeeBee]

i'm just curious as to why Vietnam , Gulf , and Iraq War vets suffer from PTSD but you never hear about it from WW2 vets and that war was much more brutal.

You did hear about it, just not under the name "PTSD".

[zach]

I think they called it "Shellshock". I'd also assume that you didn't hear about as much because there wasn't as much information available on mental health.

[zach]

I obviously don't place as much value on being "right" on an internet forum as you do. If you want to do a victory dance, be my guest. I don't even know what you were arguing in the first place, and honestly don't give a shit.

Your actions say otherwise. I don't even know why your trying to argue this when THE ENTIRE EXCHANGE IS THERE FOR EVERYBODY TO READ.
I don't care about being right on internet forums. I care about people not making completly retarded statements in general, and you happen to fall into that catagory. I can see how it might be jarring for you to spend so much time frolicking through the absolutepunk.net saying whatever stupid shit crosses your mind with out anybody saying "That's actually kind of stupid, dude" only to have some smarmy asshole like me come along and not only tell that you're saying stupid things, but why they're stupid too. It's plenty obvious that this does upset and you do give a shit. You how I know this? Because you're taking the time to reply to the things I'm saying. If you didn't care, you wouldn't.

[SLOWPOKE LOPEZ]

i've never known a WW2 vet that didn't have major mental issues related to the war.

[GeeBee]

Your actions say otherwise. I don't even know why your trying to argue this when THE ENTIRE EXCHANGE IS THERE FOR EVERYBODY TO READ.
I don't care about being right on internet forums. I care about people not making completly retarded statements in general, and you happen to fall into that catagory. I can see how it might be jarring for you to spend so much time frolicking through the absolutepunk.net saying whatever stupid shit crosses your mind with out anybody saying "That's actually kind of stupid, dude" only to have some smarmy asshole like me come along and not only tell that you're saying stupid things, but why they're stupid too. It's plenty obvious that this does upset and you do give a shit. You how I know this? Because you're taking the time to reply to the things I'm saying. If you didn't care, you wouldn't.

Good deal.

[mattmatumbo]

You have no idea how you'll react in a situation like that, regardless of all the video games or movies you've seen. Some people can just naturally handle more than others, that's just how we're wired.

Yep, my family all came back from wars very normal, but then there are those that just see the same things differently and now they're on the streets or apparently killing themselves. The government should really take care of its vets, whether or not the war was popular or agreed on.

[mattmatumbo]

i've never known a WW2 vet that didn't have major mental issues related to the war.

Same. I think that seeing concentration camps and such validated anything they did in the war that they thought was horrendous.

Side note: Does anyone know how Germans ended up after the war? Did they have any mental problems coming to terms with fighting a war over racism that they may or may have not believed in?

[Sventhegreat]

Yep, my family all came back from wars very normal, but then there are those that just see the same things differently and now they're on the streets or apparently killing themselves. The government should really take care of its vets, whether or not the war was popular or agreed on.

Agreed.

[jawstheme]

Same. I think that seeing concentration camps and such validated anything they did in the war that they thought was horrendous.

Side note: Does anyone know how Germans ended up after the war? Did they have any mental problems coming to terms with fighting a war over racism that they may or may have not believed in?

Germans are human beings just like anyone else. Of course they had major mental problems. And the war was over much more than racism. See the Treaty of Versailles.

[lauren<3s music]

Seeing as mental helath in this country is generally treated like a joke in this country anyways, it is not surprising. It is horrific, end of stories. Our military should have the best of everything end of story. The upside there is a lot of awareness of the problem now and at least Congress is trying to take steps to improve.

[mattmatumbo]

Germans are human beings just like anyone else. Of course they had major mental problems. And the war was over much more than racism. See the Treaty of Versailles.

I wasn't insinuating that they aren't, i was just curios if any statistics had ever been noted.

[GeeBee]

Seeing as mental helath in this country is generally treated like a joke in this country anyways, it is not surprising. It is horrific, end of stories. Our military should have the best of everything end of story. The upside there is a lot of awareness of the problem now and at least Congress is trying to take steps to improve.

Comparatively on a global scale...they do.

Not saying we're perfect, or that there aren't real problems to address. But being a member of the military in this country carries prestige, honor, and some damn good benefits. Not many countries in the world can say that.

[keepitwolf]

war all the time

[TotalCollapse]

Rise Against brought up this issue when I saw them a month ago. It's very concerning.

[QuikTrig]

I obviously don't place as much value on being "right" on an internet forum as you do.

Picking petty fights on internet forums is a true testament to yours.
Enjoy your new digs on my ignore list.



um. are you serious? you and a couple others fuckin live off being "right" here in the politics forum and shit on anyone who you think is wrong.

[GeeBee]

um. are you serious? you and a couple others fuckin live off being "right" here in the politics forum and shit on anyone who you think is wrong.

I enjoy debating as much as the next guy. :shrug: But I could care less about appearing to be right.

In additon...your ignore button is but a click away if you don't like it. I used mine. Use yours. :-)

[lauren<3s music]

Comparatively on a global scale...they do.

Not saying we're perfect, or that there aren't real problems to address. But being a member of the military in this country carries prestige, honor, and some damn good benefits. Not many countries in the world can say that.
i'm not comparing them to other countries, i'm comparing their benefits to what I see is possible and compared to that we are not anywhere close.

[GeeBee]

i'm not comparing them to other countries, i'm comparing their benefits to what I see is possible and compared to that we are not anywhere close.


Agreed completely, and good point.

[jawstheme]

i'm not comparing them to other countries, i'm comparing their benefits to what I see is possible and compared to that we are not anywhere close.

What do you see possible?

[billyboatkid]

That's no good, no good at all.

[lauren<3s music]

What do you see possible?
what isn't?

I know that seems like a cop-out answer, but really I mean they should have access to the best health care at no cost, best schools, retirement, housing to say the least. I'd be up for sending them each a turkey on thanksgiving. i mean to me if you are a combat veteran you should come home and be able to not worry about anything. Instead we have people who are losing their homes, cars, suffering physically and mentally all for the promise of free tuition and then can't even access that? Its deplorable.

[open mind]

what isn't?

I know that seems like a cop-out answer, but really I mean they should have access to the best health care at no cost, best schools, retirement, housing to say the least. I'd be up for sending them each a turkey on thanksgiving. i mean to me if you are a combat veteran you should come home and be able to not worry about anything. Instead we have people who are losing their homes, cars, suffering physically and mentally all for the promise of free tuition and then can't even access that? Its deplorable.

if vets were given everything we'd end up with everyone joining the military and fighting in unjustified wars.

i don't want anyone to be in bad shape, but it's kind of a good thing that joining the military isn't the most attractive option out there for most.

[GeeBee]

what isn't?

I know that seems like a cop-out answer, but really I mean they should have access to the best health care at no cost, best schools, retirement, housing to say the least. I'd be up for sending them each a turkey on thanksgiving. i mean to me if you are a combat veteran you should come home and be able to not worry about anything. Instead we have people who are losing their homes, cars, suffering physically and mentally all for the promise of free tuition and then can't even access that? Its deplorable.

At what cost to the rest of the populous? Such benefits are only not warranted, but unrealistic to expect. I don't think those things are as "possible" as you think they are.

[lauren<3s music]

if vets were given everything we'd end up with everyone joining the military and fighting in unjustified wars.

i don't want anyone to be in bad shape, but it's kind of a good thing that joining the military isn't the most attractive option out there for most.

no i think we'd make the process a lot more exclusive. well ideally anyways.

that goes for joining and for sending them into combat.

At what cost to the rest of the populous? Such benefits are only not warranted, but unrealistic to expect. I don't think those things are as "possible" as you think they are.

not warranted? really?! yeah clearly you've never seen someone come back blown to pieces from combat and all they want is to make sure their friends get home alive. and quite frankly i think making sure they have great health care, education and housing is not unrealistic to expect at all given that we already "do" that - it just sucks. and we pay more for it. we need to focus on making things more efficient and effective.

[open mind]

no i think we'd make the process a lot more exclusive. well ideally anyways.

that goes for joining and for sending them into combat.

we'd still be giving everything to those who fight in unjustified wars wouldn't we?

i'm not sure i follow what you're saying here.

[MyNameIsRoss]

yes, that is fucked up.

[GeeBee]

no i think we'd make the process a lot more exclusive. well ideally anyways.

that goes for joining and for sending them into combat.



not warranted? really?! yeah clearly you've never seen someone come back blown to pieces from combat and all they want is to make sure their friends get home alive. and quite frankly i think making sure they have great health care, education and housing is not unrealistic to expect at all given that we already "do" that - it just sucks. and we pay more for it. we need to focus on making things more efficient and effective.

Again...people choose the vocation. They know the risks.
Agreed, though, on the efficiency and effectiveness.

[jawstheme]

what isn't?

I know that seems like a cop-out answer, but really I mean they should have access to the best health care at no cost, best schools, retirement, housing to say the least. I'd be up for sending them each a turkey on thanksgiving. i mean to me if you are a combat veteran you should come home and be able to not worry about anything. Instead we have people who are losing their homes, cars, suffering physically and mentally all for the promise of free tuition and then can't even access that? Its deplorable.

I agree that this is how is should be, but in our capitalist country it isn't very likely. Our soldiers are the working class. Socialism for the win.

[lauren<3s music]

we'd still be giving everything to those who fight in unjustified wars wouldn't we?

i'm not sure i follow what you're saying here.

smaller military would mean greater consideration before going to war (hopefully) which (hopefully) would translate into fewer wars.

Again...people choose the vocation. They know the risks.
Agreed, though, on the efficiency and effectiveness.

True, but I think a lot of people are a bit misled.

I agree that this is how is should be, but in our capitalist country it isn't very likely. Our soldiers are the working class. Socialism for the win.

I don't think that its impossible in a our country at all. We just need to fix things