For the religious ones here

[bossydacow]

will Saddam go to heaven?

It is my belief that everyone goes to heaven, since Christ reveals Himself in all His Glory giving non believers a final chance to repent and accept Him. I find it hard to believe that anyone at all, regardless of how evil they were on Earth, would ever look Jesus in the eyes and not choose Him. To think that such a thing is possible, I believe, is an insult to Jesus. He is the embodiment of Love, I just can't imagine anyone rejecting Him, not even Saddam.

[bossydacow]

but thats illogical. Some people never have a chance to know Jesus, or even hear about him. What about them?

[amishman]

Originally posted by bossydacow
but thats illogical. Some people never have a chance to know Jesus, or even hear about him. What about them?

There are many unanswered questions in Christianity, some we may never know while we are alive. That is why it is important to come to know God while you can.

[bossydacow]

no. Religion is entirely nessecary on Earth. It's something to fall back on during hard times, to remind you that you were never alone. It's like that "footprints" story. We need to know God while on Earth, so that we know that there is a reason to exist. Here's that "footprints" story for those who don't know. I think it's beautiful.

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed
he was walking along the beach with the LORD.
Across the sky flashed scenes from his life.
For each scene he noticed two sets of
footprints in the sand: one belonging
to him, and the other to the LORD.
When the last scene of his life flashed before him,
he looked back at the footprints in the sand.
He noticed that many times along the path of
his life there was only one set of footprints.
He also noticed that it happened at the very
lowest and saddest times in his life.
This really bothered him and he
questioned the LORD about it:
"LORD, you said that once I decided to follow
you, you'd walk with me all the way.
But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life,
there is only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why when
I needed you most you would leave me."
The LORD replied:
"My son, my precious child,
I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you."

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by cal1082
Your original question was about Saddam, and not people who have never had the chance to here the teachings of Jesus.

But thats a question that really no one knows. It's like babies who die without having a chance to sin or know Jesus. It doesnt say right out in the Bible.

you can hear the teachings of Jesus, but not really hear them.

[The Nephilm]

if there were such things as heaven and hell, than i would hope in your religions definition Saddam would go to hell. If your religion bases it's teachings on the ability to do whatever the fuck you want in life as long as you repent or whatever when you die, something is thouroughly fucked up.

[bossydacow]

my confirmed religion is Catholicism, and that religion teaches to believe in Jesus on Earth in order to get into heaven. I don't think that is nessecarily true because there are so many ways a person can never be able to actually learn about Jesus in a manner that will convert them to His side. THerefore, Jesus reveals himself to those who were never fully capable of learning about Him. Saddam Hussiens earth-self was an evil, terribly human, asshole. But Heaven is entirely different plane with an entirely different set of rules, and an entirely different agenda. The rules, and beliefs, and the nature of how the world we know functions, don't apply to the rules, beliefs, and nature of Heaven. We cannot fathom how God could forgive Saddam. But He could, cuz he's fucking God, He can do whatever he wants. However, Saddam has to ask for forgiveness and repent, and when he meets Jesus at those gates, I have a hard time believing that he could just turn his back on Jesus, and not become completely transformed. With Jesus anything is capable.

[evil zach]

But suppose saddam did meet jesus, and ask for forgivenes, and repented, would that then mean that the evil deed he commited on earth would go un punished?

[amishman]

Originally posted by evil zach
But suppose saddam did meet jesus, and ask for forgivenes, and repented, would that then mean that the evil deed he commited on earth would go un punished?

Yes, He forgets all sins. Us humans can forgive but we can't forget, Jesus can.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by evil zach
But suppose saddam did meet jesus, and ask for forgivenes, and repented, would that then mean that the evil deed he commited on earth would go un punished?

yeah, pretty much. Its hard for you and I to understand because we don't understand God. Society teaches us unforgiveness and hate. But think about it, how many times in your life have you been truly, sincerely sorry for something. and how incredibly shitty did that make you feel. Now Saddam is responsible for the deaths of thousands, thats a shitload of guilt to deal with, by truly repenting and accepting Christ, Saddam has to truly feel sorry for everyone of those deaths. He isn't going to get off easy. Repenting is hard to do. My main point is, that repenting is possible, and therefore, theres a chance Saddam will gain entrance to heaven.

[amishman]

Originally posted by cal1082
It has to be done on earth though.

Exactly, and I doubt Saddam did (has everyone assumed he's dead?).

[bossydacow]

"As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the
wicked."

Bible, Ezekiel 33.11

I'm not sure if Saddam did or not, and I won't know till I get there. But I think its very plausible.

[bossydacow]

Cause it proves God probably thinks the war in Iraq misssion is for shit. He doesn't want Saddam, Al Qaeda, Bin Laden or anyone to die. And it relates to this thread in that it shows God still loves evil people, and wishes them no harm. Therefore, they could very easily get into heaven.

[amishman]

Originally posted by bossydacow
Cause it proves God probably thinks the war in Iraq misssion is for shit. He doesn't want Saddam, Al Qaeda, Bin Laden or anyone to die. And it relates to this thread in that it shows God still loves evil people, and wishes them no harm. Therefore, they could very easily get into heaven.

You're right, God wishes no one harm, even evil people. Also, everyone doesn't go to Heaven. When you die, you are judged, and if you didn't follow God on Earth, then you're not getting into Heaven.

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by bossydacow
Cause it proves God probably thinks the war in Iraq misssion is for shit. He doesn't want Saddam, Al Qaeda, Bin Laden or anyone to die. And it relates to this thread in that it shows God still loves evil people, and wishes them no harm. Therefore, they could very easily get into heaven.

I really doubt he thinks the liberation of an oppressed people is "shit" and i personally find that a very selfish and ignorant piont of view. There are mean points in the bible that controdice each other if they are taken out of context, and there are passages the promote the spread of "freedom"

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
but thats illogical. Some people never have a chance to know Jesus, or even hear about him. What about them?


religion is illogical

[yeat182]

Originally posted by amishman
Yes, He forgets all sins. Us humans can forgive but we can't forget, Jesus can.

does that mean Jesus is french?

[amishman]

Originally posted by yeat182
religion is illogical

Why is religion illogical?

[yeat182]

because its all based on fables and superstition

[amishman]

Originally posted by yeat182
because its all based on fables and superstition

So are you saying that God doesn't exist?

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by amishman
So are you saying that God doesn't exist?

I am.

[evil zach]

Originally posted by yeat182
does that mean Jesus is french?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That was quite funny. Bravo!

[evil zach]

Originally posted by amishman
So are you saying that God doesn't exist?
I don't believe in the existence of any sort of supream being, but as long as you respect that, I'll respect your beliefe.

[amishman]

Originally posted by evil zach
I don't believe in the existence of any sort of supream being, but as long as you respect that, I'll respect your beliefe.

I repsect that, truly.

[evil zach]

all is well then. You wanna go get some icecream?

[xTSTLx]

i feel that religion was created to give people some sort of comfort about their after life

[yeat182]

Originally posted by amishman
So are you saying that God doesn't exist?


i'm not saying he/she/it doesn't exist, but until you show me some proof, i have no reason to believe it. for all i know, you could subsitute "aliens" for "god" and it would make more sense to me.

[bossydacow]

Ever watch the sun set/rise? See the ocean? Been in love? Remember the happiest moment of your life? Such amazing scenes/feelings do not create themselves. They were created by a loving being: God. So you should go to Him, because He probably misses you. And if you are going to say that the creation of the world was one big coincidence recall the happiest moment of your life or the most beautiful scenery you've ever seen and read this:

One day a young man entered the office of his parish preist with a major concern.
"Father," he said, " I don't know if I believe in God anymore. There is no proof."
The priest thought for a moment, and then asked, " Have you ever seen a sunset? How perfect the colors of the sleeping sun mix into the evening sky? That is how we know God is exists." But the boy was unsatisfied, he said, " Yes, but that is just a part of the nature of Earth, which we learned was created by the Big Bang, a big coincidence."
Sighing, the priest then reached into his desk and pulled out a gold colored sheet of paper which had large, beautifully written verses of the Bible written in thick, black calligraphy. The work was so stunningly beautiful it looked as if it took hours to finish.
"Did you do this Father? It's beautiful." the boy said in wonderment.
"Of course not silly boy," the priest laughed, " This gold paper was sitting in a pile of others just like it near the window sill when a gust from the open window blew it on my desk. Incidently, a stray cat found its way through this labyrinth of a Church and into my office, hopped on the desk and in doing so, tipped over a jar of ink I had placed there to write my sermon later on. The ink spilled all over this paper, and the stains dried in the form of these Bible versuses. Amazing, isn't it?"
The boy was flabbergasted, " Father, you can't expect me to believe a crazy story like that. We all know that nothing so beautiful can simply form out of a coincidence..."
Then hearing what he had just said, the boy remembered visiting watching the sunset with his friends on a camping trip last summer. It was the first time he ever took to really notice the sunset, the most beautiful sight he had ever witnessed. Upon remembering this, he took in to account the cat/ink story and finally realized that God must exist, for nothing as beautiful as nature can be created by a mere coincidence.


Ugh, that took a long time, but it was worth it. I hope you all understand the story.

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by yeat182
i'm not saying he/she/it doesn't exist, but until you show me some proof, i have no reason to believe it. for all i know, you could subsitute "aliens" for "god" and it would make more sense to me.
Except there is proof of aliens. Go talk to Lelma in the moo moo she'll tell ya the whole story about her abduction.

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by bossydacow
Ever watch the sun set/rise? See the ocean? Been in love? Remember the happiest moment of your life? Such amazing scenes/feelings do not create themselves. They were created by a loving being: God. So you should go to Him, because He probably misses you. And if you are going to say that the creation of the world was one big coincidence recall the happiest moment of your life or the most beautiful scenery you've ever seen and read this:



I understand your views and respect them, because you at least seem to uphold some of the good parts of the christian doctrine, but please don't try to argue scientific evidence with religion; epecially something as easily explained as the sunset.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
I understand your views and respect them, because you at least seem to uphold some of the good parts of the christian doctrine, but please don't try to argue scientific evidence with religion; epecially something as easily explained as the sunset.

explain how a sunsets occur and how whatever prompts it to happen came into existence. Or better yet, explain how the very first crumble of matter came into existence. my point is it is illogical to think it all to be a big coincidence. And thank you for respecting my views, especiall since it is a touchy subject for some.

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by bossydacow
explain how a sunsets occur and how whatever prompts it to happen came into existence. Or better yet, explain how the very first crumble of matter came into existence. my point is it is illogical to think it all to be a big coincidence. And thank you for respecting my views, especiall since it is a touchy subject for some.

I don't feel like getting into the logistics of a sunset, but lets just simplify it and say it is caused by the wavelength of the suns light because it is lower in the sky.

But yes it is very difficult to explain where the first piece of matter came from. But did God exist then to create it???

And if God has always existed, why did he wait to reveal himself to the Hebrew people and not to those societies in the Mesopotamian river valley, or egypt, or syria, or asyria, all of which existed before the hebrew society?

[nofxer]

for the people asking for proof of God's existance-
hes not just going to come out and show himself, otherwise it wouldent be called FAITH. if he was a 100 percent sure thing than everyone would be able to just take advantage of his everlasting life without actually have to go the the process of faith.

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by nofxer
for the people asking for proof of God's existance-
hes not just going to come out and show himself, otherwise it wouldent be called FAITH. if he was a 100 percent sure thing than everyone would be able to just take advantage of his everlasting life without actually have to go the the process of faith.

Faith in what? A supreme being that has absolutely ZERO evidence of existing?

[nofxer]

thats the point...theres no hard evidence, and there probably wont be untill the end of it all...its kind of a test thing...hard to explain though

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by nofxer
thats the point...theres no hard evidence, and there probably wont be untill the end of it all...its kind of a test thing...hard to explain though

I understand the teachings I know my fair share of religion, but for logical thinkers it is impossible to accept something that there is no evidence of. NONE.

[nofxer]

yea i definately see where you are coming from...theres a good deal of grey area in religion...lots of room to question. one thing that i always thing about though(i think some other dude said it already too) where did that very first little chunk of matter come from?

[EmoMoose86]

looking at neph's argument of no evidence of a god...

a fact does come up:

you do not have credible proof that god does not exist

that is logical

[blaarg]

Originally posted by EmoMoose86
looking at neph's argument of no evidence of a god...

a fact does come up:

you do not have credible proof that god does not exist

that is logical
normally you don't need proof to show the non-existance of something. it kinda works on a "prove it exists" basis. otherwise i could say "the world is run by a race of super-intelligent monkeys in lab coats living fifty feet under oklahoma." and you wouldn't be able to dis-prove it... unless you live in oklahoma and have a shouvel and alot of time to kill...

[blaarg]

Originally posted by cal1082
I've always thought it was better to believe in something rather than nothing. What do you have to loose if you're wrong? Nothing.
your independent thought, your money, life's experiences...

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by blaarg
your independent thought, your money, life's experiences...

sleep?

[blaarg]

Originally posted by Safetyin#
sleep?
yea, i forgot sleep... sleep is important

[blaarg]

Originally posted by cal1082
For the non-believers:

Who do you think Jesus was?
some dude who we know lived at some point or another but have no evidence of anything he did throughout his life.

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by cal1082
For the non-believers:

Who do you think Jesus was?

I'm a believer, but my opinions on religion are my own, and thats one subject i keep to my self unless forced to expose.

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by cal1082
For the non-believers:

Who do you think Jesus was?

he was a guy who preached a religion he created that stemmed from a monotheistic belief that was becoming more and more apparent in societies (from Marduk in the tigris-euphrates river valley and the sun god (forgot his name) in Egypt). these societies weren't monotheistic but were leaning towards the idea. jesus just created a monotheistic religion.

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by The Nephilm
he was a guy who preached a religion he created that stemmed from a monotheistic belief that was becoming more and more apparent in societies (from Marduk in the tigris-euphrates river valley and the sun god (forgot his name) in Egypt). these societies weren't monotheistic but were leaning towards the idea. jesus just created a monotheistic religion.

RA ?

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by The Nephilm


But yes it is very difficult to explain where the first piece of matter came from. But did God exist then to create it???

And if God has always existed, why did he wait to reveal himself to the Hebrew people and not to those societies in the Mesopotamian river valley, or egypt, or syria, or asyria, all of which existed before the hebrew society?

God always was. God waited simply because the Jews are the chosen people. Of course, they have failed, but then again, so might any other group God might have chosen.

And to the person who talked of grey areas: you're right. There are many unsolved mysteries within religion. However, Catholicism teaches that the reason there are questions unanswered is because as human beings we cannot fully comprehend the complete Truths of God. It would be far to overwhelming. Therefore, bit by bit we must work our way to discovering the Truth. Eventually, far into the future, there will be no questions. And God loves it when we question. Constructive questioning is the only true way to become one with God.

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by cal1082
No evidence, look at history books and the Bible.

the bible is preachings. some of it is true and historical, however MOST OF IT is hyped up religious stories to get the message of christianity across.

and there is no evidence in history books of God.

[nofxer]

you guys are still avoiding that one question
if there is no God, then where did that first little peice of matter come from?

[The Nephilm]

Originally posted by nofxer
you guys are still avoiding that one question
if there is no God, then where did that first little peice of matter come from?

i got a better one

if god created the earth and all of the animals on it at the same time...

why did humans evolve roughly 20k years ago and dinosaurs haven't lived on earth for 65 million years?

and why is the earth 5 billion years old? didn't he make everything, including man in 7 days?

and there are a bazillion more that more or less disprove and of that creationism bull shit

the reason we can't concieve where the first piece of matter came from is that science is either not yet advanced enough or we will never know.

[nofxer]

1 day doesnt have to mean 24 hours, just cuz thats what we define it as here. it could be a year, or a thousand years or a billion years...who knows

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
Ever watch the sun set/rise? See the ocean? Been in love? Remember the happiest moment of your life? Such amazing scenes/feelings do not create themselves. They were created by a loving being: God. So you should go to Him, because He probably misses you. And if you are going to say that the creation of the world was one big coincidence recall the happiest moment of your life or the most beautiful scenery you've ever seen and read this:


Ugh, that took a long time, but it was worth it. I hope you all understand the story.


you know what makes the sun set? the rotation of the earth and the refraction of different wavelengths of light as they pass through the atmosphere.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
God always was. God waited simply because the Jews are the chosen people. Of course, they have failed, but then again, so might any other group God might have chosen.

And to the person who talked of grey areas: you're right. There are many unsolved mysteries within religion. However, Catholicism teaches that the reason there are questions unanswered is because as human beings we cannot fully comprehend the complete Truths of God. It would be far to overwhelming. Therefore, bit by bit we must work our way to discovering the Truth. Eventually, far into the future, there will be no questions. And God loves it when we question. Constructive questioning is the only true way to become one with God.


how can you seriously say that god always existed, and yet, the universe must have been created by someone? by your own logic, the possiblity that the universe has always been is just as credible as the statement that god has always been.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by cal1082
No evidence, look at history books and the Bible.


the bible is not fact. it is a collection of stories passed down over thousands of years. some of it can be linked to actuall events, but most of it is fable and superstition. i've never read one history book that talks about what god did.


sorry neph, i read your post just afte i wrote this, its almost identical. anyway, we actually agree on an issue for once, now i don't have to worry about you out smarting me!

[bossydacow]

The Old Testement is a collection of mostly fictional stories that serve as lessons to followers on their relationship with God. The New Testement is more non-fiction, but still slightly exaggerated, and tells of Jesus' life. So the Bible isn't entirely fiction, it is God's Word transfered to humans in a way we can understand.

[blaarg]

Originally posted by cal1082
There's no proof that the Bible is a collection of fables, just like i can't prove every story is true. How do you know it's fable or superstition?

I never said history books talk about God, i said Jesus.
jesus fucking christ! you don't need to preve the non-existance of something! proof is needed to show existance not the reverse.

proove to me that there aren't invisible fairies that live in air. - see how rediculous that sounds?!?

of course the inevitable response to this is "prove the big bang theory, how did the first atom come to existance"
-well we don't know, but unlike religion, science encourages seeking of the answer. and don't tell me religion does cuz we all remember gallelao. (even though i think i spelled his name wrong.)

[yeat182]

Originally posted by blaarg
jesus fucking christ! you don't need to preve the non-existance of something! proof is needed to show existance not the reverse.

proove to me that there aren't invisible fairies that live in air. - see how rediculous that sounds?!?

of course the inevitable response to this is "prove the big bang theory, how did the first atom come to existance"
-well we don't know, but unlike religion, science encourages seeking of the answer. and don't tell me religion does cuz we all remember gallelao. (even though i think i spelled his name wrong.)

exactly

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by blaarg

-well we don't know, but unlike religion, science encourages seeking of the answer. and don't tell me religion does cuz we all remember gallelao. (even though i think i spelled his name wrong.)


Um, I'm not so sure about other religions, but I know that the Catholic Church advocates questioning of all kinds. We are taught that questioning is the only way to build a true relationship with God. God wants us to question.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
Um, I'm not so sure about other religions, but I know that the Catholic Church advocates questioning of all kinds. We are taught that questioning is the only way to build a true relationship with God. God wants us to question.

the same Catholic church that burned heretic who thought the sun was the center of the solar system? the same catholic church that disregards the Gospel of St. Thomas? the same Catholic church that ignored years and years of sexual abuse by priests? they don't advocate questioning at all, they advocate hiding the truth in order to remain in power...

[amishman]

Wow, I'm gone for a few days, and this topic takes off. Impressive. Anyway, to the non-believers, it will always be hard to convince them that God is real. Faith is extremely difficult to follow sometimes, even for believers.

You can't see God actually, but you can see His effects. Can you see gravity? No, but you can see/feel its effects. The same with God. Every act of God (sunsets, etc.) can be explained scientifically, which to me, shows there is a God. God created Earth at just the location, any closer to the sun, it would be too hot, any farther away, too cold. I think better proof of God is in the miracle of birth. Think about it. We all start as nothing, and then develop into a human.

Anyway, I know many of you won't believe what I say (and that's OK), you may even laugh out loud at me (which is also fine). But those are beliefs as a Christian. I also thank and respect everyone who respects each othere here (I read numerous posts about it). It makes this that much better of a place to argue, you won't get anywhere hurling insults at someone. Man, that is easily one of the longest posts I have ever posted.

[bossydacow]

I can understand the non believers points well. Its difficult to believe in something that isn't corporal.

[yeat182]

i'm gonna have to quote the simpsons on this...


"God has no place within these walls (school), just like facts have no place within organized religion"

[evil zach]

Its dificult for me to belive in somthing that isn't tangeble, but what ever works for you.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by cal1082
I doubt he does. In Christian belief you have to believe Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins. You have to accept him into your life before you die. I doubt Saddam has.


So let me get this straight.... if he worships HIS God, he gets to burn in YOUR hell? That seems a bit unfair.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by cal1082
I doubt he does. In Christian belief you have to believe Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins.


i don't understand, how can Jesus be the son of God, and the son of Joseph? or is Joseph God? hmm...i guess i found a hole in the plot of the bible...

[xTSTLx]

Originally posted by yeat182
i'm gonna have to quote the simpsons on this...


"God has no place within these walls (school), just like facts have no place within organized religion"



nice!!

[blaarg]

Originally posted by yeat182
Originally posted by cal1082
I doubt he does. In Christian belief you have to believe Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins.


i don't understand, how can Jesus be the son of God, and the son of Joseph? or is Joseph God? hmm...i guess i found a hole in the plot of the bible...
no, jesus is apparently the son of god, joseph is like his foster dad.

but the whole theory of jesus being the son of god and the virgin mary is grounds for divorce in my mind. how many times do you hear "it's your kid" these days, you can't believe everyone every time.

[amishman]

Originally posted by yeat182
i don't understand, how can Jesus be the son of God, and the son of Joseph? or is Joseph God? hmm...i guess i found a hole in the plot of the bible...

Actually, Joseph and Mary didn't conceive Jesus. Mary became pregnant and God told Joseph to wed Mary because she was carrying Jesus. He was afraid to because they weren't married and she was already pregnant. Joseph was Jesus' earthly father, and not even that.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by cal1082
Belief wise yes. If you don't take Jesus as your Lord and savior you are going to go to hell. It's not a very politcally correct statement, but it's the sad truth. Just being a good person doesnt get you into heaven.


that doesn't make sense, why would an all powerful god care if you believe in him or not, as long as you are a good person?

[blaarg]

christianity says "if you don't believe in our god, you will go to hell," but there's many other religions that say the same thing, meaning everyone will go to hell.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by cal1082
I don't question the Bible, just go by it.


so you are basically just a sheep....is that why they say the lord is your shepard? because you blindly follow what ever is written about him?

[yeat182]

Originally posted by cal1082
no, meaning alot of people will be right and alot will be wrong on their beliefs. It's not a perfect world.

if god was a perfect being, then the world he created would be perfect...

[amishman]

Originally posted by yeat182
if god was a perfect being, then the world he created would be perfect...

What imperfection can you find in our world? If there is a flaw, it is because of mankind, not God.

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by amishman
What imperfection can you find in our world?


Girls have only two breast, thats an imperfection.

[amishman]

Originally posted by Safetyin#
Girls have only two breast, thats an imperfection.

Not an imperfection, think about it. Any more than 2 and it would be a huge distraction, nothing would ever be done. Seriously, I can barely think with just seeing 2.

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by amishman
Not an imperfection, think about it. Any more than 2 and it would be a huge distraction, nothing would ever be done. Seriously, I can barely think with just seeing 2.

I say the more distractions the BETTER, i not only want to be distracted when there facing me but also when there not.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by amishman
What imperfection can you find in our world? If there is a flaw, it is because of mankind, not God.

didn't god create mankind?

[amishman]

Originally posted by yeat182
didn't god create mankind?

What exactly is your point?

[Stompemplay]

Originally posted by amishman
What exactly is your point?

His point is that if god made something that made flaws (why would god do that?) then wouldnt that make god itself flawed?

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Stompemplay
His point is that if god made something that made flaws (why would god do that?) then wouldnt that make god itself flawed?

exactly

[Safetyin#]

so the gift of free will is an imperfection?

[yeat182]

if we are given free will by god, why would he care if we chose not to worship him?

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by yeat182
if we are given free will by god, why would he care if we chose not to worship him?

Whos to say he does? Its your choice to except him or not, but that also means that your chooseing your own "after life."

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Safetyin#
Whos to say he does? Its your choice to except him or not, but that also means that your chooseing your own "after life."

good point, but i was refering back to when someone said if you don't accept Jesus as your savior then you can't get into heaven, even if you're a good person. doesn't make sense to me that god would give you free will if he would punish you for using it. doesn't make god seem to perfect to me.

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by yeat182
good point, but i was refering back to when someone said if you don't accept Jesus as your savior then you can't get into heaven, even if you're a good person. doesn't make sense to me that god would give you free will if he would punish you for using it. doesn't make god seem to perfect to me.

thats cool, i'm not much for discussing religion any ways, start a new thread or something so we can argue!

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by yeat182
if we are given free will by god, why would he care if we chose not to worship him?

The whole point of God giving us free will is so that we will freely choose to walk with Him, rather than be forced to because we know nothing else.
And to whoever said Christianity says that if you don't except Jesus you can't go to heaven - you're wrong.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
The whole point of God giving us free will is so that we will freely choose to walk with Him, rather than be forced to because we know nothing else.
And to whoever said Christianity says that if you don't except Jesus you can't go to heaven - you're wrong.


what happen's to people who don't know about Chritianity? do they go to hell, simply because no one every told them about the bible?

[Stompemplay]

Originally posted by yeat182
good point, but i was refering back to when someone said if you don't accept Jesus as your savior then you can't get into heaven, even if you're a good person. doesn't make sense to me that god would give you free will if he would punish you for using it. doesn't make god seem to perfect to me.

Does that mean you don't believe in hell?

[Safetyin#]

How come you (^) don't post anywhere else, do you come here just to preach? Your not morman and trying to use this as your missionaring responsibility are you?

[yeat182]

Originally posted by Stompemplay
Does that mean you don't believe in hell?

i don't believe in heaven or hell

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by yeat182
what happen's to people who don't know about Chritianity? do they go to hell, simply because no one every told them about the bible?

um, I personally believe everyone goes to heaven. It's a sort widely unknown belief that stems from Catholicism called Universal Opprotunity, and that at death everyone gets a vision of the Gospel Truth and has one last chance to accept Jesus. Now, think about it. Your about dead, and you get this amazing vision. Why wouldn't you choose God?
Now, as for the rest of Christianity, the popular belief is that those who don't know about Christianity get a vision of Christ before they die, as a last opprotunity. Those who know about Christ and continue to deny Him throughout their life on earth, I guess go to hell. But I don't believe that.
Some psycho Christian groups who are really really conservative(you may find them in the Deep South) will tell you that you are going to hell for simply having sex before marriage. That even if you know Jesus, if you sin, you're a goner. They are evil. Their beliefs aren't a good example of Christianity and what it stands for. Jesus would never send someone to hell for pre-marital sex or swearing or whatever. You all have to remember that one of his closest friends while on earth was a prostitute, Mary Magadelen. Actually a re-formed prostitute. And you also have to rememeber Jesus when he went to the stoning of a woman who commited adultry, that He said to the angry men who were about to stone her to death, "He who has not sinned before may cast the first stone." And then all the men left. Jesus loves and wants to protect all of us. But He cannot protect us if we don't know Him.

[Stompemplay]

Ever since I started listening to George Carlin, the stupidity of religion has become apparent to me:

"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll to to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money"

"I want you to know, when it comes to believing in god- I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is FUCKED-UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago."

"Religion is sort of like a lift in your shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don't ask me to wear your shoes. "

[Matthew]

It seems awfully petty for someone who is all-powerful and all-knowing to assign someone a place in etternal damnation because they kneel to a different alter. If God was so wise, he would relaize that the inspiration for your works on earth is not as important as the works themselves. By Christian doctrine Martin Luther King Jr. would be in heaven now, but Gandhi would be in hell, despite the fact that they BOTH advanced human liberties invaluably.

So Gandhi did his works for a deity with a different name, why should he burn? Why would God be so... childish? It seems that we try to make up this diverse mythology of repentance and salvation to comfort us because we are insecure in the merit of our accomplishments and of the unknown that is death. Someone who has led a bad life must find it comforting to know that none of it matters in the end, and someone who cannot let go of life would take great relief in clinging to the hope of life after death.

In my views, God is beyond the comprehension of the human mind, if he exists at all. So why bother trying to satisfy our own egoes by pretending that we have all the answers? I mean, look at this cal1082 character. While I admire your faith I dont like the fact that you are complacent in your short-sightedness. You proclaim that you have never questioned the bible, as though it should be rewarded. Are you afraid of what you might find if you look to hard?

Living in a predominantly Baptist society it took me a LONG TIME to get up the guts to even pose the question to myself as to whether or not I believed, or was just following suit. But my studies led me to realize that I dont buy a lot of the Bible's teachings, and that I cannot believe in a force that could spread peace and prosperity across the cosmos but instead chooses to judge the world and sentence his people.

I have decided that I will not assign these petty flaws to a "God" in order to make me feel like more of a person, or attempt to bring order to a chaotic existence. Existence IS chaos, and in it we are all specks, who dispite are insignificance CAN change things if we try. But we cannot control existence, and that is what relgion tries to do. We can cope with sickness because we believe that our prayers may influence the sick. We can live without fear because we have built a false future to follow the grave.

Don't justify your existence with a false God, but with the labors of your life. Change things. Fight the evils of war and disease. But dont live with your leash in the hands of some all-powerful fairy tale.

[Stompemplay]

Originally posted by ScreamoEMOBoy
It seems awfully petty for someone who is all-powerful and all-knowing to assign someone a place in etternal damnation because they kneel to a different alter. If God was so wise, he would relaize that the inspiration for your works on earth is not as important as the works themselves. By Christian doctrine Martin Luther King Jr. would be in heaven now, but Gandhi would be in hell, despite the fact that they BOTH advanced human liberties invaluably.

So Gandhi did his works for a deity with a different name, why should he burn? Why would God be so... childish? It seems that we try to make up this diverse mythology of repentance and salvation to comfort us because we are insecure in the merit of our accomplishments and of the unknown that is death. Someone who has led a bad life must find it comforting to know that none of it matters in the end, and someone who cannot let go of life would take great relief in clinging to the hope of life after death.

In my views, God is beyond the comprehension of the human mind, if he exists at all. So why bother trying to satisfy our own egoes by pretending that we have all the answers? I mean, look at this cal1082 character. While I admire your faith I dont like the fact that you are complacent in your short-sightedness. You proclaim that you have never questioned the bible, as though it should be rewarded. Are you afraid of what you might find if you look to hard?

Living in a predominantly Baptist society it took me a LONG TIME to get up the guts to even pose the question to myself as to whether or not I believed, or was just following suit. But my studies led me to realize that I dont buy a lot of the Bible's teachings, and that I cannot believe in a force that could spread peace and prosperity across the cosmos but instead chooses to judge the world and sentence his people.

I have decided that I will not assign these petty flaws to a "God" in order to make me feel like more of a person, or attempt to bring order to a chaotic existence. Existence IS chaos, and in it we are all specks, who dispite are insignificance CAN change things if we try. But we cannot control existence, and that is what relgion tries to do. We can cope with sickness because we believe that our prayers may influence the sick. We can live without fear because we have built a false future to follow the grave.

Don't justify your existence with a false God, but with the labors of your life. Change things. Fight the evils of war and disease. But dont live with your leash in the hands of some all-powerful fairy tale.

Totally agree.

My parents dont want me to marry someone who isnt jewish. Can you believe that??? they dont want me to marry someone who doesnt think that the man in the sky who tells us what is right and what is wrong in the EXACT same respect as i do.

WHAT BULLSHIT.

And wars have been fought because of this, MILLIONS have died! Millions, because they believe in what created us (usually slightly) different then others do!

[yeat182]

the catholic church is a buissness, and they are only out for one thing, money. they don't care about the truth, they only care about staying in power. Why do you need a church to pray to an all powerful god?

[blaarg]

Originally posted by yeat182
the catholic church is a buissness, and they are only out for one thing, money. they don't care about the truth, they only care about staying in power. Why do you need a church to pray to an all powerful god?
here's something to back that up;
back around the reneisance, the church would sell cards that would get people out of hell. so according to the church no matter what a person would do, they could rape and kill 20 people a night the rest of their life, then come to church, buy a card and go to heaven.
someone named martin luther said "this isn't right" and tried to get the church to stop selling salvation.
but then the church wouldn't make so much money, so they decided to kick him out.

they're nothing but buisnessmen. the "higher power" is all part of how they scam you.

go ahead and argue this but you'll be forgetting church's book burnings of darwin.

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by blaarg
here's something to back that up;
back around the reneisance, the church would sell cards that would get people out of hell. so according to the church no matter what a person would do, they could rape and kill 20 people a night the rest of their life, then come to church, buy a card and go to heaven.
someone named martin luther said "this isn't right" and tried to get the church to stop selling salvation.
but then the church wouldn't make so much money, so they decided to kick him out.

they're nothing but buisnessmen. the "higher power" is all part of how they scam you.

go ahead and argue this but you'll be forgetting church's book burnings of darwin.

"Indulgences"


And he'll continue to argue, even with the burning of darwin's book(s), because to him these are pure FICTION, much like the bible is to you.

[Stompemplay]

I used to have the attitude that if people NEED to believe in god they can, but Im embarassed to be part of a species that is so smart, and yet believe that there is a man who lives in the sky who watches over you and judges what you do by right or wrong...

seems barbaric, doesnt it?

[ms y o o n]

i dont think anybody but God can judge who goes where and what happens to people. lets just wait, and if (those who believe in heaven) we do get to heaven and see saddam.... then that was God's decision

[yeat182]

if i get to heaven and see saddam i'm gonna kill him...then what see what happens.

[Stompemplay]

Originally posted by krazee_k0rean
i dont think anybody but God can judge who goes where and what happens to people. lets just wait, and if (those who believe in heaven) we do get to heaven and see saddam.... then that was God's decision

Or if its just eternal blackness.......

then u owe me 5 bucks

cause id be right and ur wrong

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by yeat182
if i get to heaven and see saddam i'm gonna kill him...then what see what happens.

i'm not sure if you're joking or not, but i don't think you will. Heaven is not earth. The earthly rules we know of don't exist. In heaven we reach a higher state of being and intelligence. We become united as family. It would be illogical to attempt to hurt or re-kill some one in heaven.

and to the person who thinks believing in God is barbaric...it isn't. It's normal, and logical. once again, the big question, WHERE DID THAT FIRST CRUMBLE OF EXISTENCE COME FROM?

[blaarg]

Originally posted by Safetyin#
"Indulgences"


And he'll continue to argue, even with the burning of darwin's book(s), because to him these are pure FICTION, much like the bible is to you.
1) there's scientific evidence supporting evolutoin

2) people who believe in evolution don't go around banning religion and burning bibles

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by blaarg
1) there's scientific evidence supporting evolutoin

2) people who believe in evolution don't go around banning religion and burning bibles

I wasn't disagreeing with you in anyway so you dont have to defend your beliefs with me, i was just stating that he will still argue with you about religion no matter what darwin said.

Evolutionist do go around banning "religion," were you taught creationism in highschool?

[evil zach]

I was. In my world history class during the pre-history unit. Equal time was spent on both theories.

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by evil zach
I was. In my world history class during the pre-history unit. Equal time was spent on both theories.

I live in a VERY republican state, which went so far as abolishing evolution in schools, because science teachers (liberal all or most) refused to teach both sides of the story.

[evil zach]

thats fucked up. on both sides.

[Safetyin#]

Originally posted by evil zach
thats fucked up. on both sides.

ya it was recalled, but it was mostly done to show the teachers the people still have a say in what they teach, and that promoting an agenda in highschool wouldn't be aloud.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
i'm not sure if you're joking or not, but i don't think you will. Heaven is not earth. The earthly rules we know of don't exist. In heaven we reach a higher state of being and intelligence. We become united as family. It would be illogical to attempt to hurt or re-kill some one in heaven.

and to the person who thinks believing in God is barbaric...it isn't. It's normal, and logical. once again, the big question, WHERE DID THAT FIRST CRUMBLE OF EXISTENCE COME FROM?


don't bring logic into a debate about religion....

[yeat182]

here is a question about jesus....


if you have to accept jesus as the son of god to get into heaven, what happened to the people that lived before jesus? they automatically go to hell because god was too lazy to create jesus earlier in the history of mankind?

[blaarg]

if someone likes to be bad but supresses their urges and acts good, believes in god and goes to heaven, would they be happy there if heaven is good and they like to be bad?

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by yeat182
here is a question about jesus....


if you have to accept jesus as the son of god to get into heaven, what happened to the people that lived before jesus? they automatically go to hell because god was too lazy to create jesus earlier in the history of mankind?


Jesus revealed himself to all those who lived before, offering a chance for them to accept him.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
Jesus revealed himself to all those who lived before, offering a chance for them to accept him.

how? if he could show himself to people before he was born, what was the point in him being born at all?

[amishman]

Originally posted by bossydacow
Jesus revealed himself to all those who lived before, offering a chance for them to accept him.

Actually, they had animal sacrifices before the birth of Jesus.

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by yeat182
how? if he could show himself to people before he was born, what was the point in him being born at all?

Jesus was put on this earth to save us all from Hell - to die for our sins. I'm pretty sure God decide to put Him on earth at that time because he knew that the world was all full of sin, and he promised never to destroy the world again after the Noah's Ark ordeal.
And he didn't show himself to people before he was born, it was after. The people who died before Jesus came were in limbo.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
The people who died before Jesus came were in limbo.


that sounds bogus...

[bossydacow]

well, where else would they be. And you are an athiest right? well where do you think we go after we die. Just blackness or nothingness right? Thats limbo.

God has a plan for all. to us it all may seem illogical, but it will prove not to be.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
well, where else would they be. And you are an athiest right? well where do you think we go after we die. Just blackness or nothingness right? Thats limbo.

God has a plan for all. to us it all may seem illogical, but it will prove not to be.

god obviously had no plan for the people that end up in limbo...

i'm an agnostic, if you can prove god exists i'll believe it....

[bossydacow]

Originally posted by yeat182
god obviously had no plan for the people that end up in limbo...



He has a plan for all. No one is in limbo now that Jesus died for our sins. Limbo is thought to be for those who never believed in Jesus and for those who were never baptized, because years and years ago, not being baptized was thought to be a sin.

The Nicene Creed sums of the purpose of Jesus and what is believed about God by Catholics quite nicely:


We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[yeat182]

Originally posted by bossydacow
And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church.


Man created religion, so how can you be sure it is true?

also, if god created man, then how can jesus be the only son of God? wouldn't we all be god's children?

[amishman]

Originally posted by yeat182
Man created religion, so how can you be sure it is true?

also, if god created man, then how can jesus be the only son of God? wouldn't we all be god's children?

Many times church laws get in the way with beliefs of God, I won't argue with you on that one. People get so caught up with church/religion they often forget what they believe in. We are all God's children but Jesus is the Son of God (God personified). I realize that this is difficult to explain and believe.

[bossydacow]

God is three parts: The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus, like amishman said, is God in another form - a human form.