Pastor Praying for Obamas death

[Animalhill]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2009/09/01/sanchez.pastor.obama.hate.cnn
A loving god and its loving preachers- eh?

[GeeBee]

Funny that amputees never get "healed" by these scheisters.

[Animalhill]

Funny that amputees never get "healed" by these scheisters.
I like how the reporter brings up the fact that if this dude was muslim, he'd have gotten fucked by the arm of the law a long time ago.

[GeeBee]

I like how the reporter brings up the fact that if this dude was muslim, he'd have gotten fucked by the arm of the law a long time ago.

Haha..."your ridiculous religious sentiments would've been punishable by death in a country where DIFFERENT ridiculous religious sentiments dictate the law!"

[Animalhill]

Haha..."your ridiculous religious sentiments would've been punishable by death in a country where DIFFERENT ridiculous religious sentiments dictate the law!"
:-d
I'm beginning to think I should have posted this in the bibleloving thread.

[starshine1763]

More worrisome is the fact that the guy who carried the AR-15 to the AZ rally is a member of this guy's church and agrees that Obama needs to die.

[more heart]

You would like to think incidents like this are rare, but that is certainly not the case.

[jwicklun]

what would jesus do?

[Animalhill]

what would jesus do?
It is very difficult to make any presumptions about how a ficitonal character would act in real life.
You would like to think incidents like this are rare, but that is certainly not the case.
I hear that man. I knew this kind of stuff would be prevalent, even while casting my vote for him.

[bladerdude360]

Shit's crazy.

[Praetor]

I'm pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't be a capitalist. lol @ him saying 'socialist' like it's anti-religion.

[John JD Dorian]

even if obama sucks as president, at least he's inspiring honest, intelligent debate, right?

[Animalhill]

I'm pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't be a capitalist. lol @ him saying 'socialist' like it's anti-religion.
haha this is the first thing I thought of too.

[Brand-new-123]

Well I'm glad this guy really pays attention to Matthew 5

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23278h)] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23279i)] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Praetor]

haha this is the first thing I thought of too.
Matthew 25:35
For I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you called the cops; 36 naked, and you threw Me out; I was sick, and you mailed Me the medical bills; I was in prison, and you testified against Me at my parole hearings.

Obviously the translation the pastor is working from.

[MyNameIsRoss]

I'm pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't be a capitalist. lol @ him saying 'socialist' like it's anti-religion.

Ik0yz5Jo4Os

[Animalhill]

I'm pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't be a capitalist. lol @ him saying 'socialist' like it's anti-religion.

Matthew 25:35
For I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you called the cops; 36 naked, and you threw Me out; I was sick, and you mailed Me the medical bills; I was in prison, and you testified against Me at my parole hearings.

Obviously the translation the pastor is working from.
:-d

[QuikTrig]

You would like to think incidents like this are rare, but that is certainly not the case.

...so you think its common that religious people are praying for obama to die?

[Animalhill]

...so you think its common that christian fundamentalists are praying for obama to die?
Fixed, and yes.

[QuikTrig]

Fixed, and yes.

that's quite an assumption. do you have some sort of evidence for it?

[maxvsmaradona]

And this is why I don't like organized religion.

[Animalhill]

that's quite an assumption. do you have some sort of evidence for it?
I think this video is a fairly good indication- its not like hes just some nut who attends the church, he's a Pastor. If he had been a Muslim, he'd be in fucking prison right now.

[Brand-new-123]

Fixed, and yes.
None of the fundamentalists I know pray for him to "die and go to hell." They might pray for him to change what he stands for but not for him to die.

[Animalhill]

None of the fundamentalists I know pray for him to "die and go to hell." They might pray for him to change what he stands for but not for him to die.
Did you ask them? And if you did, do you think they would give you an honest answer? I'm not saying there's this massive funamentalist movement for the death of Obama, but I'm willing to bet this guy is not simply an isolated incident. Again, my reall issue here is with the fact that had he been of a religion other than christianity, he'd be in jail or worse.

[Brand-new-123]

1 Did you ask them? And if you did, do you think they would give you an honest answer? I'm not saying there's this massive funamentalist movement for the death of Obama, but I'm willing to bet this guy is not simply an isolated incident. 2 Again, my reall issue here is with the fact that had he been of a religion other than christianity, he'd be in jail or worse.

1. The matter of his presidency and his beliefs have been discussed at great length among my fundamentalist friends and I and the consensus has been to pray for him. Which is really the only option if you take Matthew 5 seriously. and yes I don't know why they would lie about that when they clearly don't like the guy.

2. He wasn't really arguing for violence. He even said he wants him to die of a brain tumor. Don't get me wrong it's disgusting to wish death on anyone but it's not illegal to my knowledge to hope that someone dies of cancer.

[Animalhill]

1. The matter of his presidency and his beliefs have been discussed at great length among my fundamentalist friends and I and the consensus has been to pray for him. Which is really the only option if you take Matthew 5 seriously. and yes I don't know why they would lie about that when they clearly don't like the guy.

2. He wasn't really arguing for violence. He even said he wants him to die of a brain tumor. Don't get me wrong it's disgusting to wish death on anyone but it's not illegal to my knowledge to hope that someone dies of cancer.
:-d Seriously?
1. Why the FUCK would religion impact your view on politics?
2. He certainly was arguing for violence. Wishing someone dead, regardless of the medium, is still violent.
3. I'm not even going to get into this. I refuse to argue with fundamentalists. Its pointless, and tiresome.

[thatwasamoment]

If praying actually worked, Obama would never have won the presidency.

[Animalhill]

If praying actually worked, Obama would never have won the presidency.
:-d THIS!

[QuikTrig]

I think this video is a fairly good indication- its not like hes just some nut who attends the church, he's a Pastor. If he had been a Muslim, he'd be in fucking prison right now.

so if a pastor likes oatmeal cookies, all his laity obviously likes them too? given i haven't seen the video, but even if he's TEACHING his damn church this nonsense, its one church.

do you think if it was common, it would be on cnn.com?

[Animalhill]

so if a pastor likes oatmeal cookies, all his laity obviously likes them too? given i haven't seen the video, but even if he's TEACHING his damn church this nonsense, its one church.

do you think if it was common, it would be on cnn.com?
Key phrase here.

[Brand-new-123]

:-d Seriously?
1. Why the FUCK would religion impact your view on politics?
2. He certainly was arguing for violence. Wishing someone dead, regardless of the medium, is still violent.
3. I'm not even going to get into this. I refuse to argue with fundamentalists. Its pointless, and tiresome.
1. Because if you believe something like fetuses are humans with human dignity you will want to end abortion etc. What you believe will generally affect other areas of your life unless your some kind of a superhuman that can partition himself or you have a serious personality disorder.
2. Someone can die violently or naturally. Big difference. This guy was hoping for the latter. (still reprehensible)
3. Good thing I'm not a fundamentalist.

[Praetor]

1. Because if you believe something like fetuses are humans with human dignity you will want to end abortion etc. What you believe will generally affect other areas of your life unless your some kind of a superhuman that can partition himself or you have a serious personality disorder.
2. Someone can die violently or naturally. Big difference. This guy was hoping for the latter. (still reprehensible)
3. Good thing I'm not a fundamentalist.
I don't understand why this is a religious issue; unless you're implying that nontheists value life less than theists. In which case, you would sound a lot more like a fundie than you'd like to admit.

[Animalhill]

1. Because if you believe something like fetuses are humans with human dignity you will want to end abortion etc. What you believe will generally affect other areas of your life unless your some kind of a superhuman that can partition himself or you have a serious personality disorder.
2. Someone can die violently or naturally. Big difference. This guy was hoping for the latter. (still reprehensible)
3. Good thing I'm not a fundamentalist.
1. I DO NOT believe that a fetus is a developed human being... because they are IN DEVELOPMENT. And yes, I do have a personality disorder.
2. Thats such a fucking cop out.
3. You have a funny way of showing it. Contact David or Jawstheme and start taking notes.
/my conversation with you.

[Animalhill]

I don't understand why this is a religious issue; unless you're implying that nontheists value life less than theists.
Don't even bother. He doesn't have a fucking clue what he is implying.
EDIT: Kind of harsh. My apologies. Work is bugging the fucking hell out of me right now.

[Brand-new-123]

I don't understand why this is a religious issue; unless you're implying that nontheists value life less than theists.
I'm absolutely not intending to imply that nontheists value life less. It is just that most of the more conservative Christians believe that fetuses have human dignity. Can Nontheists also value life and even be prolife / antichoice (whatever you prefer the wording to be) ? yes.

[Praetor]

I'm absolutely not intending to imply that nontheists value life less. It is just that most of the more conservative Christians believe that fetuses have human dignity. Can Nontheists also value life and even be prolife / antichoice (whatever you prefer the wording to be) ? yes.
Hey, nice backtrack.

[Brand-new-123]

Hey, nice backtrack.
I just didn't want to be misunderstood. It's my fault that I wasn't clear enough.

[Brand-new-123]

1. I DO NOT believe that a fetus is a developed human being... because they are IN DEVELOPMENT. And yes, I do have a personality disorder.
2. Thats such a fucking cop out.
3. You have a funny way of showing it. Contact David or Jawstheme and start taking notes.
/my conversation with you.
Very well. Have a pleasant afternoon.

[QuikTrig]

Key phrase here.
watched it. and still feel the exact same way.

a nutso acting nuts because he's nuts. and cnn picks up on it (and presumably blows it out of proportion) because they obviously need viewers.

i still do not see how you jump from the clips in this video, and then say that this is common.

[Praetor]

I just didn't want to be misunderstood. It's my fault that I wasn't clear enough.
So, just to be clear, when you said this
Because if you believe something like fetuses are humans with human dignity you will want to end abortion etc.
in response to this,
Why the FUCK would religion impact your view on politics?
You were wrong?

[Animalhill]

Very well. Have a pleasant afternoon.
Read my edit on my above post quoting Praetor.

[Praetor]

watched it. and still feel the exact same way.

a nutso acting nuts because he's nuts. and cnn picks up on it (and presumably blows it out of proportion) because they obviously need viewers.

i still do not see how you jump from the clips in this video, and then say that this is common.
A pastor openly wished death on the POTUS and a member of his congregation carried an assault weapon to his event the next day, and later also advocated for his death. No way is this blown out of proportion.

[Brand-new-123]

Read my edit on my above post quoting Praetor.
Ok it's no biggie. It's just a web forum. I hope you r work gets better for you.

[Animalhill]

A pastor openly wished death on the POTUS and a member of his congregation carried an assault weapon to his event the next day, and later also advocated for his death. No way is this blown out of proportion.
THANK YOU
Ok it's no biggie. It's just a web forum. I hope you r work gets better for you.
Word- I disagree with you, but thats never really an excuse to personally berate someone. So my apologies.

[QuikTrig]

A pastor openly wished death on the POTUS and a member of his congregation carried an assault weapon to his event the next day, and later also advocated for his death. No way is this blown out of proportion.

i meant more in the sense of how widespread it is, not the security concern. i agree with that.

[Brand-new-123]

So, just to be clear, when you said this

in response to this,

You were wrong?

Maybe. I'm certainly not always right. But with the religious traditions I grew up under abortion was always a big problem because of what we believe the Bible teaches about fetuses. They also provided all kinds of adoption services and counseling, or baby clothes, formula, and financial assistance if a pregnant woman decided to keep her baby rather than give it up for adoption.

[Brand-new-123]

Word- I disagree with you, but thats never really an excuse to personally berate someone. So my apologies.
yup. I'm going to stay civil and I don't get upset about arguments but I understand that rarely happens on this site so I expect people to blow up at me when I disagree with them.

[Praetor]

Maybe. I'm certainly not always right. But with the religious traditions I grew up under abortion was always a big problem because of what we believe the Bible teaches about fetuses. They also provided all kinds of adoption services and counseling, or baby clothes, formula, and financial assistance if a pregnant woman decided to keep her baby rather than give it up for adoption.
What Bible have you been reading? The Bible I've grown up reading never speaks of fetus; either directly or indirectly.

edit: And what about financial help to help the woman pay for an abortion, should that be what they choose? It sounds like the church is being a fair-weather friend to pregnant women.

[Animalhill]

Maybe. I'm certainly not always right. But with the religious traditions I grew up under abortion was always a big problem because of what we believe the Bible teaches about fetuses. They also provided all kinds of adoption services and counseling, or baby clothes, formula, and financial assistance if a pregnant woman decided to keep her baby rather than give it up for adoption.
Considering the year the bible was written in, how much medical insight do you believe they had as to how, 'human' a fetus actually is?

[QuikTrig]

THANK YOU



so now that i've watched the video, can you show me the evidence that this is common?

[Animalhill]

so now that i've watched the video, can you show me the evidence that this is common?
Sure man. Absolutely. Just go ahead and be kind enough to show me evidence that god is real. ;-)
Does base your life and political opinions on 'faith' and then ask me for proof.

[Brand-new-123]

What Bible have you been reading? The Bible I've grown up reading never speaks of fetus; either directly or indirectly.

edit: And what about financial help to help the woman pay for an abortion, should that be what they choose? It sounds like the church is being a fair-weather friend to pregnant women.
The NASB, NIV, and ESV primarily

Nope. There's all kinds of organizations that will do that anyway.

[Praetor]

The NASB, NIV, and ESV primarily
Cool, link me to where it talks about fetuses.

Nope. There's all kinds of organizations that will do that anyway.
So the church's attitude is "We'll help these women out as long as they surrender their reproductive rights"?

[My Broken Fever]

Luckily any power in prayer is purely fictional. :-d

[QuikTrig]

Sure man. Absolutely. Just go ahead and be kind enough to show me evidence that god is real. ;-)
Does base your life and political opinions on 'faith' and then ask me for proof.

what? completely irrelevant.

i'm just saying that its quite an assumption to say that its common for christian fundamentalists to pray for obamas death. it'd be the same thing if it were non-religious people, or californians, or caucasians...whatever.

its not some tiny random assumption or opinion. i was just wondering what your basing it off of.

[Brand-new-123]

Cool, link me to where it talks about fetuses.


So the church's attitude is "We'll help these women out as long as they surrender their reproductive rights"?

True, it never specifically mentions fetuses or abortion. But, it does talk extensively about women who can't have children who then are joyful when they can finally have a baby. It also talks of being formed in the womb.

I wouldn't say that at all. They just provide an alternative to abortions. They do help women that have had abortions through free counseling and various other services too.

[Praetor]

True, it never specifically mentions fetuses or abortion. But, it does talk extensively about women who can't have children who then are joyful when they can finally have a baby. It also talks of being formed in the womb.
Yes, but not in the context which we are discussing.

I wouldn't say that at all. They just provide an alternative to abortions. They do help women that have had abortions through free counseling and various other services too.
...so I'm right?

[Brand-new-123]

Yes, but not in the context which we are discussing.


...so I'm right?
sure. We don't share the same worldview so what you see as "reproductive rights" I see as something else. I don't think I can do anything to persuade you otherwise and vice versa. And I'm fine with that.

[Praetor]

sure. We don't share the same worldview so what you see as "reproductive rights" I see as something else. I don't think I can do anything to persuade you otherwise and vice versa. And I'm fine with that.
We're not arguing about abortion rights right now, don't start with that bullshit. We're talking about how the church screws over women who choose to exercise their legal rights.

[Brand-new-123]

We're not arguing about abortion rights right now, don't start with that bullshit. We're talking about how the church screws over women who choose to exercise their legal rights.
not paying for an abortion =/= screwing over women. It should have no effect on them whatsoever.

[Praetor]

not paying for an abortion =/= screwing over women. It should have no effect on them whatsoever.
Okay, you and I are done. Disagreeing about abortion is one thing. But you're a moron.

[Brand-new-123]

Okay, you and I are done. Disagreeing about abortion is one thing. But you're a moron.
Ok. Have a nice day.

[perceptrons]

True, it never specifically mentions fetuses or abortion. But, it does talk extensively about women who can't have children who then are joyful when they can finally have a baby. It also talks of being formed in the womb.

I wouldn't say that at all. They just provide an alternative to abortions. They do help women that have had abortions through free counseling and various other services too.
And by counsel, do you mean try to make them see they were wrong for doing so and that it is wrong?

[Brand-new-123]

And by counsel, do you mean try to make them see they were wrong for doing so and that it is wrong?
nope probably not. I'm no expert, but if you are are going to go to counseling at a church after an abortion you probably would think it is wrong.

[inthemidst]

As a believer and follower of Christ, I apologize on this man's behalf, and for any other moron praying for his death. This is an example of religion's over-involvement in American politics. I also apologize for any fundamentalist jackass who tries to impose their style of life, and attempt to conform others to living it.

The fact is that this is exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught. We are never to wish death upon anyone for any reason at all, no matter how much influence that person has (Obama). Does this video surprise me? Not a bit. All I can do is hope that non-believers understand that not every Christ-follower has the same views. That's like saying we all have to love pork, even if you're a vegetarian.

Much love,

Kyle

[Brand-new-123]

As a believer and follower of Christ, I apologize on this man's behalf, and for any other moron praying for his death. This is an example of religion's over-involvement in American politics. I also apologize for any fundamentalist jackass who tries to impose their style of life, and attempt to conform others to living it.

The fact is that this is exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught. We are never to wish death upon anyone for any reason at all, no matter how much influence that person has (Obama). Does this video surprise me? Not a bit. All I can do is hope that non-believers understand that not every Christ-follower has the same views. That's like saying we all have to love pork, even if you're a vegetarian.

Much love,

Kyle
Pretty much all of this.

Edit: except I don't apologize for what a crazy said. He was wrong and he's a crazy

[x togepi x]

i love it how atheists here talk about christianity as if it's a monolithic thing.

[GeeBee]

As a believer and follower of Christ, I apologize on this man's behalf, and for any other moron praying for his death. This is an example of religion's over-involvement in American politics. I also apologize for any fundamentalist jackass who tries to impose their style of life, and attempt to conform others to living it.

The fact is that this is exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught. We are never to wish death upon anyone for any reason at all, no matter how much influence that person has (Obama). Does this video surprise me? Not a bit. All I can do is hope that non-believers understand that not every Christ-follower has the same views. That's like saying we all have to love pork, even if you're a vegetarian.

Much love,

Kyle
Kyle, you just gained points in this atheist's book. Peace be unto you.
i love it how atheists here talk about christianity as if it's a monolithic thing.
No True Scotsman Fallacy. Read all about it. I love how fellow "christians" are allowed a large amount of plausible deniability in regards to the actions of their fellow religionists. And no, I'm not partial...I condemn Muslims, Mormons, Jews, or any other stripe of belief system for apathy when their fellow believers step out of line like this. As far as I'm concerned, their silence is acceptance.

[HometownHero]

Wtf

[macabre]

Kyle, you just gained points in this atheist's book. Peace be unto you.

No True Scotsman Fallacy. Read all about it. I love how fellow "christians" are allowed a large amount of plausible deniability in regards to the actions of their fellow religionists. And no, I'm not partial...I condemn Muslims, Mormons, Jews, or any other stripe of belief system for apathy when their fellow believers step out of line like this. As far as I'm concerned, their silence is acceptance.

Remember there's also the hasty generalization fallacy. When it comes to this particular topic, observing a few Christians that are wishing death upon the President does not mean that Christians, in general, hold that point of view.

[starshine1763]

1. The matter of his presidency and his beliefs have been discussed at great length among my fundamentalist friends and I and the consensus has been to pray for him. Which is really the only option if you take Matthew 5 seriously. and yes I don't know why they would lie about that when they clearly don't like the guy.

2. He wasn't really arguing for violence. He even said he wants him to die of a brain tumor. Don't get me wrong it's disgusting to wish death on anyone but it's not illegal to my knowledge to hope that someone dies of cancer.

The only reason he said he hoped the President died of brain cancer would be so that Obama wouldn't become a martyr in death. I doubt that he has any moral objections as to how the President dies.

[GeeBee]

Remember there's also the hasty generalization fallacy. When it comes to this particular topic, observing a few Christians that are batshit insane does not mean that Christians, in general, are batshit insane.

No argument there. I was simply trying to articulate that it sucks that it's these types of idiots who get the airtime for "christianity".

[Brand-new-123]

The only reason he said he hoped the President died of brain cancer would be so that Obama wouldn't become a martyr in death. I doubt that he has any moral objections as to how the President dies.
I wouldn't argue with that at all.

[Manicapathy]

This guy just.....words cannot express the ignorance. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/Crow_Raveniwng/Comics/Facepalm.jpg

[macabre]

No argument there. I was simply trying to articulate that it sucks that it's these types of idiots who get the airtime for "christianity".

For sure. What's unfortunate though is that those who are the most vocal are usually also the most uneducated. During the 2004 Election, a representative of the Christian Coalition came to my school and passed out anti-Kerry brochures claiming that he was a baby killer who was advancing the "gay agenda" by spreading homosexuality to elementary school children; he actually believed in a conspiracy theory in which homosexuals were planning to take over the world and "turn people gay". X-)

[GeeBee]

For sure. What's unfortunate though is that those who are the most vocal are usually also the most uneducated. During the 2004 Election, a representative of the Christian Coalition came to my school and passed out anti-Kerry brochures claiming that he was a baby killer who was advancing the "gay agenda" by spreading homosexuality to elementary school children; he actually believed in a conspiracy theory in which homosexuals were planning to take over the world and "turn people gay". X-)

I guess the only question is why you hated freedom so much in 2004 that you considered voting for Kerry.

/sarcasm.

[macabre]

I guess the only question is why you hated freedom so much in 2004 that you considered voting for Kerry.

/sarcasm.

If you're a freedom loving patriot, then you must be a Republican
If you are a Republican, then you voted for President Bush
If you voted for President Bush, then you're not a baby killer
If you're not a baby killer, then you didn't vote for Kerry

Therefore, if you're a freedom loving patriot, you didn't vote for Kerry

logically valid and sound

[GeeBee]

If you're a freedom loving patriot, then you must be a Republican
If you are a Republican, then you voted for President Bush
If you voted for President Bush, then you're not a baby killer
If you're not a baby killer, then you didn't vote for Kerry

Therefore, if you're a freedom loving patriot, you didn't vote for Kerry

logically valid and sound

Haha...spoken as if right out of Utah County.

[more heart]

...so you think its common that religious people are praying for obama to die?
It was a general stement. People around the country making comments such as this one. I'm not trying to single any one person out.

[x togepi x]

No True Scotsman Fallacy. Read all about it. I love how fellow "christians" are allowed a large amount of plausible deniability in regards to the actions of their fellow religionists. And no, I'm not partial...I condemn Muslims, Mormons, Jews, or any other stripe of belief system for apathy when their fellow believers step out of line like this. As far as I'm concerned, their silence is acceptance.

Pull out the old logic textbook again there Tex, I didn't say they weren't "true christians". I just know, having spent a ton of my college years studying theology, that, for example, to say a liberation theologist is really all that much like a right wing christian fundamentalist is completely idiotic. They are way different in how they interpret the bible and I highly doubt someone like the 6,000 pastors, preachers, rabbis that opposed prop 8 in california are going to go out and agree with this man and say obama should die.

Who's to say anyone is being silent here? There are plenty of people within the faith calling these people out for what they are. I just think it's ridiculous that anytime a Christian (or Jew, or Muslim or whatever) does something stupid/wrong, the atheist brigade on this site comes out to point out the evils of organized religion, as if "organized religion" is something that can easily be condemned with grand sweeping generalizations.

in fact, I don't think this is a religious issue at all. I think it's more of a symptom of the dehumanizing rhetoric used within our political system from "both sides" (whatever that means). I am sure there are atheist/secular right wing nut jobs saying the same thing behind closed doors or on free state.org.


but it's really cute that you implied that i'm christian.

[Regards]

Fixed, and yes.
That's an idiotic statement. Not even close do most "fundamentalist Christians" do this.

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. (Romans 13:1)

[zach]

Pull out the old logic textbook again there Tex, I didn't say they weren't "true christians". I just know, having spent a ton of my college years studying theology, that, for example, to say a liberation theologist is really all that much like a right wing christian fundamentalist is completely idiotic. They are way different in how they interpret the bible and I highly doubt someone like the 6,000 pastors, preachers, rabbis that opposed prop 8 in california are going to go out and agree with this man and say obama should die.

Who's to say anyone is being silent here? There are plenty of people within the faith calling these people out for what they are. I just think it's ridiculous that anytime a Christian (or Jew, or Muslim or whatever) does something stupid/wrong, the atheist brigade on this site comes out to point out the evils of organized religion, as if "organized religion" is something that can easily be condemned with grand sweeping generalizations.

in fact, I don't think this is a religious issue at all. I think it's more of a symptom of the dehumanizing rhetoric used within our political system from "both sides" (whatever that means). I am sure there are atheist/secular right wing nut jobs saying the same thing behind closed doors or on free state.org.


but it's really cute that you implied that i'm christian.

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1598/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1598R-116000.jpg

[mattmatumbo]

I love that he says that the police can't arrest him without cause, however, you don't have to be charged with ANYTHING for 48 hours after the arrest. I think a Republican would understand such nonsensical laws.

[Kozzy333]

Good old Christians.

[mattmatumbo]

These are exactly the reasons i stopped going to church:

A: My youth pastor told us it's impossible to be a democrat and be a christian.
B: The same youth pastor told us it's the Black People's fault they were enslaved, so white people shouldn't feel bad or give reparations.
C: Socialism is apparently just as bad as being gay, which brings another point, all sins are equal?

The list goes on but those are the most poignant.

[Kozzy333]

These are exactly the reasons i stopped going to church:

A: My youth pastor told us it's impossible to be a democrat and be a christian.
B: The same youth pastor told us it's the Black People's fault they were enslaved, so white people shouldn't feel bad or give reparations.
C: Socialism is apparently just as bad as being gay, which brings another point, all sins are equal?

The list goes on but those are the most poignant.

Hearing things like this makes me glad I've never gone to church and never will.

[GeeBee]

Pull out the old logic textbook again there Tex, I didn't say they weren't "true christians". I just know, having spent a ton of my college years studying theology, that, for example, to say a liberation theologist is really all that much like a right wing christian fundamentalist is completely idiotic. They are way different in how they interpret the bible and I highly doubt someone like the 6,000 pastors, preachers, rabbis that opposed prop 8 in california are going to go out and agree with this man and say obama should die.

Who's to say anyone is being silent here? There are plenty of people within the faith calling these people out for what they are. I just think it's ridiculous that anytime a Christian (or Jew, or Muslim or whatever) does something stupid/wrong, the atheist brigade on this site comes out to point out the evils of organized religion, as if "organized religion" is something that can easily be condemned with grand sweeping generalizations.

in fact, I don't think this is a religious issue at all. I think it's more of a symptom of the dehumanizing rhetoric used within our political system from "both sides" (whatever that means). I am sure there are atheist/secular right wing nut jobs saying the same thing behind closed doors or on free state.org.


but it's really cute that you implied that i'm christian.

a few things:

a) if you cared to read further, I stated that my entire point was simply that it's a shame such morons command the airtime, and those condemning them get very little. I realize this moron doesn't represent the entirety of christianity.
b) I never implied that you were a christian. I've seen enough of your posts to know otherwise.

and finally, and I think the most damning to your entire point...the BOLDED illustrates that you're just as guilty of making sweeping generalizations about atheists as they allegedly are about religionists. Don't fall victim to the very thing you're accusing me of.

I never meant to imply that all christians must think like the douche in question. If that's how I came off, my sincerest apologies.

[GeeBee]

Zach's banana is really small.

[macabre]

Zach's banana is really small.

TWSS

[GeeBee]

TWSS
Sometimes mothers say things they don't mean...

[zach]

Zach's banana is really small.
That's because the smaller ones are more flavourful.


My dick however, is massive.

[GeeBee]

That's because the smaller ones are more flavourful.


My dick however, is massive.

Sounds good.

[zach]

That's what the ladies usually say in relation to my offer of a delicious bowl of mashed potatoes with some plantains mixed in to give it a bit of banana flavour (and it's seriously delicious. I recomend it to everybody). Then that's what my room mates usually say when their woken up in the night to sounds of said lady screaming with ecstacy while i'm pounding her vag into ground beef.

[Brand-new-123]

That's what the ladies usually say in relation to my offer of a delicious bowl of mashed potatoes with some plantains mixed in to give it a bit of banana flavour (and it's seriously delicious. I recomend it to everybody). Then that's what my room mates usually say when they're woken up in the night to sounds of said lady screaming with ecstacy while i'm pounding her vag into ground beef.
fixed

[zach]

Thanks man. I was worried my post wouldn't be taken seriously with such a grammatical error.

[Robert Eväns]

Thanks man. I was worried my post wouldn't be taken seriously with such a grammatical error.
I went back and read the original, and I didn't take it seriously. However, when I read the quoted post, I understand your point.

[writeacliche]

If praying actually worked, Obama would never have won the presidency.
Fuckin LOOOOOOLLL.

I'm a Christian but that doesn't mean my views on the general body are that great. Most of the church goers in my little town are shitheads.

[alice+interiors]

This entire thread is ridiculously dumb. Cool, you found another fanatic! Let's all write off Christianity and bash God for another 100 posts.

[jeremypeele]

Ok. Have a nice day.


Thank you for sticking up for some christian people haha

Trust me, this guy who is praying for Obama to die is not the normal Christian. I know plenty of Christians and all of them are not this way. Jesus/God said to love your enemies. Obviously he's not loving Obama when he wishes him to get a brain tumor. Everyone is all about freedom of religion or lack thereof but it seems Christians get bashed on this site, which is cool because i can take it. But you have to realize that there are Christians and there are "Christians."

[jeremypeele]

These are exactly the reasons i stopped going to church:

A: My youth pastor told us it's impossible to be a democrat and be a christian.
B: The same youth pastor told us it's the Black People's fault they were enslaved, so white people shouldn't feel bad or give reparations.
C: Socialism is apparently just as bad as being gay, which brings another point, all sins are equal?

The list goes on but those are the most poignant.

Well B is a little more true that false. They did enslave each other before we enslaved them, some of them actually sold us their slaves. Sorry i'm just throwing some of my African History lecture in there.

[Jefferson Rank]

Fuckin LOOOOOOLLL.

I'm a Christian but that doesn't mean my views on the general body are that great. Most of the church goers in my little town are shitheads.

Nice FLCL Avatar.

[Animalhill]

This entire thread is ridiculously dumb. Cool, you found another fanatic! Let's all write off Christianity and bash God for another 100 posts.
Its not like this is the first time something along these lines have occured. I'm not 'bashing' god, as 'bashing' a fictional character is absolutely pointless. This initially had less to do with christianity than the way in which the government shows unfair leniency towards christian extremists (whereas a muslim extremist would have no doubt been arrested or at least QUESTIONED by the CIA).

[yves.]

Well B is a little more true that false. They did enslave each other before we enslaved them, some of them actually sold us their slaves. Sorry i'm just throwing some of my African History lecture in there.

your education has failed you. almost every society has had slaves, a majority of them having been prisoners of war or straight up criminals... not just snatched out of their beds in the dead of night and boarded on a ship. there were African princes that were made into slaves. and if you meant "enslaving each other before they were enslaved" as there were people who sold others' whereabouts to the spaniards and portuguese but then those people who sold the whereabouts were also enslaved (so the spaniards and portuguese got their money back), you are correct.

[ArTkY_]

Pull out the old logic textbook again there Tex, I didn't say they weren't "true christians". I just know, having spent a ton of my college years studying theology, that, for example, to say a liberation theologist is really all that much like a right wing christian fundamentalist is completely idiotic. They are way different in how they interpret the bible and I highly doubt someone like the 6,000 pastors, preachers, rabbis that opposed prop 8 in california are going to go out and agree with this man and say obama should die.

Who's to say anyone is being silent here? There are plenty of people within the faith calling these people out for what they are. I just think it's ridiculous that anytime a Christian (or Jew, or Muslim or whatever) does something stupid/wrong, the atheist brigade on this site comes out to point out the evils of organized religion, as if "organized religion" is something that can easily be condemned with grand sweeping generalizations.

in fact, I don't think this is a religious issue at all. I think it's more of a symptom of the dehumanizing rhetoric used within our political system from "both sides" (whatever that means). I am sure there are atheist/secular right wing nut jobs saying the same thing behind closed doors or on free state.org.


but it's really cute that you implied that i'm christian.
This post, word for word.

[mattmatumbo]

Well B is a little more true that false. They did enslave each other before we enslaved them, some of them actually sold us their slaves. Sorry i'm just throwing some of my African History lecture in there.

No, I'm fully aware of these facts, however, they did this not out of stupidity or a lack of understanding. They, by enslaving others, in turn kept themselves from being enslaved. They enslaved their enemies and rival tribes from what i've heard, thus they kept themselves free. I think they probably understood that white people with guns will get what they want regardless, so they took the easiest route out by enslaving others.

I also had a teacher tell me that this was the longest slave holding time period and it was taken much differently than any other slave trade. She said historically slaves were held because they had done something against the people who were enslaving them. IE they had a war and to punish them, the enemies were enslaved, however, their children were set free because they had done nothing to the country that had enslaved their parents. And i'm only focusing on the American aspect of this, but we bread them to be better slaves and such, which was apparently unheard of before the American slave trade. I'm not 100% sure of this.

Regardless, to put the blame on the actual slaves is just... wrong for a christian to say i think.

And a side note, if you want to learn about god, don't go to any organized religion's church. They're all hypocrites, but i think we're all aware of this.

[timbedinosaur]

what would jesus do?
Hit him with lightning then turn him into wine.

[jeremypeele]

No, I'm fully aware of these facts, however, they did this not out of stupidity or a lack of understanding. They, by enslaving others, in turn kept themselves from being enslaved. They enslaved their enemies and rival tribes from what i've heard, thus they kept themselves free. I think they probably understood that white people with guns will get what they want regardless, so they took the easiest route out by enslaving others.

I also had a teacher tell me that this was the longest slave holding time period and it was taken much differently than any other slave trade. She said historically slaves were held because they had done something against the people who were enslaving them. IE they had a war and to punish them, the enemies were enslaved, however, their children were set free because they had done nothing to the country that had enslaved their parents. And i'm only focusing on the American aspect of this, but we bread them to be better slaves and such, which was apparently unheard of before the American slave trade. I'm not 100% sure of this.

Regardless, to put the blame on the actual slaves is just... wrong for a christian to say i think.

And a side note, if you want to learn about god, don't go to any organized religion's church. They're all hypocrites, but i think we're all aware of this.
I'm not putting the blame on anyone. Some Africans did sell other Africans as slaves, and some even gave away the whereabouts of other tribes. It happened. The blame should rest on whoever was involved.

[jeremypeele]

your education has failed you. almost every society has had slaves, a majority of them having been prisoners of war or straight up criminals... not just snatched out of their beds in the dead of night and boarded on a ship. there were African princes that were made into slaves. and if you meant "enslaving each other before they were enslaved" as there were people who sold others' whereabouts to the spaniards and portuguese but then those people who sold the whereabouts were also enslaved (so the spaniards and portuguese got their money back), you are correct.
I'm no dumbass. I know there were other slaves in varying societies.

Explain to me how my education has failed me? I wrote one, general sentence about how some slaves were enslaved by their own people, maybe different tribes. It was a semester class, not my major.

[Kill_the_radio]

hahaha poor stupid pastor!

[Animalhill]

Did anyone else hear his girly death-shriek when the cops busted his window open? I laughed so fucking hard.

[Brand-new-123]

Did anyone else hear his girly death-shriek when the cops busted his window open? I laughed so fucking hard.
Yes! that whole segment of the video was ridiculous.

[Animalhill]

Yes! that whole segment of the video was ridiculous.
Haha I know dude! I was like, "damn... preacher boy gots balls" and then the cop busted his window open and it sounded like the chick in the shower screaming from, "Psycho". :-d I am high right now by the way, and all the 'bite' is removed from my now nonexistent 'bark'. I reread the thread and now realize I did indeed make a gross generalization. I guess I was just so freaked out by a pastor of a religion that preaches love spreading hate, and with no visable outbreak from the not-insane members of the christian faith, made a false assumption.

[Brand-new-123]

Haha I know dude! I was like, "damn... preacher boy gots balls" and then the cop busted his window open and it sounded like the chick in the shower screaming from, "Psycho". :-d I am high right now by the way, and all the 'bite' is removed from my now nonexistent 'bark'. I reread the thread and now realize I did indeed make a gross generalization. I guess I was just so freaked out by a pastor of a religion that preaches love spreading hate, and with no visable outbreak from the not-insane members of the christian faith, made a false assumption.
Yup. That guy's retarded. If he didn't do anything he should have just gone with them and proven his innocence
Unfortunately there are crazies in any religion or group that are way more vocal and get more attention than the usually much more reasonable majority.

[Animalhill]

Yup. That guy's retarded. If he didn't do anything he should have just gone with them and proven his innocence
Unfortunately there are crazies in any religion or group that are way more vocal and get more attention than the usually much more reasonable majority.
I realize this now. However, I still feel justified in saying that had he been a Muslim, he would be in jail or some sort of questioning right now.

[Brand-new-123]

I realize this now. However, I still feel justified in saying that had he been a Muslim, he would be in jail or some sort of questioning right now.
That's possibly true. If it is that's incredibly wrong. I think the authorities should handle them the same way they're handling this nutjob. If they think he's actually a threat they'll bring him in.

[Animalhill]

That's possibly true. If it is that's incredibly wrong. I think the authorities should handle them the same way they're handling this nutjob. If they think he's actually a threat they'll bring him in.
They should question him regardless. Anyways, I think this topic has been beat to death and beyond.

[alice+interiors]

Its not like this is the first time something along these lines have occured. I'm not 'bashing' god, as 'bashing' a fictional character is absolutely pointless. This initially had less to do with christianity than the way in which the government shows unfair leniency towards christian extremists (whereas a muslim extremist would have no doubt been arrested or at least QUESTIONED by the CIA).
Cool, a veiled insult. I stopped reading past this point as you are clearly too steeped in your own prejudices to have a justified, decent opinion worthy of my time.

[Animalhill]

Cool, a veiled insult. I stopped reading past this point as you are clearly too steeped in your own prejudices to have a justified, decent opinion worthy of my time.
What? I was being perfectly honest with you: Why would I even bother talking trash about a diety I do not believe exists? I harbor no more hatred for your god than I do Zeus.

[alice+interiors]

What? I was being perfectly honest with you: Why would I even bother talking trash about a diety I do not believe exists? I harbor no more hatred for your god than I do Zeus.
Why would you bother? The same reason the majority of atheists do: they feel the need to exert that not only there is no God: but they are superior to any such superhuman being that may exist, and that they do not need salvation.

[Animalhill]

Why would you bother? The same reason the majority of atheists do: they feel the need to exert that not only there is no God: but they are superior to any such superhuman being that may exist, and that they do not need salvation.
Hmmm... weird, now you're making vast generalizations. Also, I do NOT need, 'salvation' becuase I've done nothing wrong.

[My Broken Fever]

Why would you bother? The same reason the majority of atheists do: they feel the need to exert that not only there is no God: but they are superior to any such superhuman being that may exist, and that they do not need salvation.
An atheist doesn't need salvation because the term is absolutely meaningless in the religious sense if you don't believe in a supreme being. I'll also go ahead and say that if the christian god has anything to do with the bible; anyone could claim superiority over him/her/it.

[alice+interiors]

Hmmm... weird, now you're making vast generalizations. Also, I do NOT need, 'salvation' becuase I've done nothing wrong.
Hahaha it's me making generalizations! Like the huge one you implied when you wrote 'what happened to a loving God and his loving preachers?' And do you really believe you've never done anything wrong in your life? Because even from an atheistic point of view, that is sad.

An atheist doesn't need salvation because the term is absolutely meaningless in the religious sense if you don't believe in a supreme being. I'll also go ahead and say that if the christian god has anything to do with the bible; anyone could claim superiority over him/her/it.
An atheist needs it more than a Christian.. otherwise who is there to be saved? What you mean is that an atheist doesn't think they need it, or doesn't want it.
And yeah, that's an argument we don't need to retrace.

[Animalhill]

Hahaha it's me making generalizations! Like the huge one you implied when you wrote 'what happened to a loving God and his loving preachers?' And do you really believe you've never done anything wrong in your life? Because even from an atheistic point of view, that is sad.


An atheist needs it more than a Christian.. otherwise who is there to be saved? What you mean is that an atheist doesn't think they need it, or doesn't want it.
And yeah, that's an argument we don't need to retrace.
You're 15, and have no idea what you're talking about. I 'need' nothing from your religion. This does not make me a less moral person than you.
/discussion

[My Broken Fever]

Hahaha it's me making generalizations! Like the huge one you implied when you wrote 'what happened to a loving God and his loving preachers?' And do you really believe you've never done anything wrong in your life? Because even from an atheistic point of view, that is sad.


An atheist needs it more than a Christian.. otherwise who is there to be saved? What you mean is that an atheist doesn't think they need it, or doesn't want it.
And yeah, that's an argument we don't need to retrace.
No, I don't think it exists. A Christian believes in salvation, an atheist doesn't.

[alice+interiors]

You're 15, and have no idea what you're talking about. I 'need' nothing from your religion. This does not make me a less moral person than you.
/discussion
You are truly an idiot. You are 20, and you act like you've seen the world. So quit acting like you're some world-weary traveller who has seen and understood everything when you are a mere 5 years older than me, most of which I expect you have spent in education. So don't try and pull the ageist idiom because you can't formulate a proper argument. Pathetic.

No, I don't think it exists. A Christian believes in salvation, an atheist doesn't.
It all boils down to the same thing: you still don't believe you need it.

[Animalhill]

You are truly an idiot. You are 20, and you act like you've seen the world. So quit acting like you're some world-weary traveller who has seen and understood everything when you are a mere 5 years older than me, most of which I expect you have spent in education. So don't try and pull the ageist idiom because you can't formulate a proper argument. Pathetic.


It all boils down to the same thing: you still don't believe you need it.
Picture yourself trying to talk philosophy with a ten year old. I will freely admit that I know very little- but those 5 extra years of life experience that I have over you makes a difference. Have you ever been homeless? Have you seen someone die in front of you? Life changes you my friend- so don't pass judgement.

[alice+interiors]

Picture yourself trying to talk philosophy with a ten year old. I will freely admit that I know very little- but those 5 extra years of life experience that I have over you makes a difference. Have you ever been homeless? Have you seen someone die in front of you? Life changes you my friend- so don't pass judgement.
And yet there are a hell of a lot of dumb 20 year olds, and a hell of a lot of intelligent 15 year olds. The massive reduction of intelligence in common society as of the last 50 years means writing people off because of their age becomes less relevant almost on a day to day basis.

[Animalhill]

And yet there are a hell of a lot of dumb 20 year olds, and a hell of a lot of intelligent 15 year olds. The massive reduction of intelligence in common society as of the last 50 years means writing people off because of their age becomes less relevant almost on a day to day basis.
I'm not writing you off because of your age, I'm writing you off because you have failed to prove anything other than that you believe atheists are inherently immoral and need "salvation". Your religion is predated by HUNDREDS of other religions are almost exactly the same as christianity.
I'M DONE. I have work to do.

[Jefferson Rank]

It all boils down to the same thing: you still don't believe you need it.

I don't believe I need salvation. So what? It doesn't make me less of a person. It doesn't make me arrogant by nature, either.

[muttley]

He just had to be from Arizona, didn't he?

[Jefferson Rank]

He just had to be from Arizona, didn't he?

You guys get a bad rap, don't you? When I went to Sedona, everyone was really nice.

[ted is lying]

Picture yourself trying to talk philosophy with a ten year old. I will freely admit that I know very little- but those 5 extra years of life experience that I have over you makes a difference. Have you ever been homeless? Have you seen someone die in front of you? Life changes you my friend- so don't pass judgement.
Your life sucks, you are a failure for being homeless, get a job. And how did you see someone die in front of you, who do you hang out with. And yes life changes. I think a 15 year old just bested you.

[alice+interiors]

I'm not writing you off because of your age, I'm writing you off because you have failed to prove anything other than that you believe atheists are inherently immoral and need "salvation". Your religion is predated by HUNDREDS of other religions are almost exactly the same as christianity.
I'M DONE. I have work to do.
Changing your tune now then, eh? That's weird.
You have failed to prove anything, other than the fact that you have successfully discovered a religious fanatic, from which you decide you can make a sweeping generalization about a 'loving God' and his 'loving preachers'. So - not much new from you either.
And funny how you have work to do now, when you've finished posting around the site for about 2 hours. Whatever.

I don't believe I need salvation. So what? It doesn't make me less of a person. It doesn't make me arrogant by nature, either.
I don't understand what you're trying to say with this post.

[Animalhill]

Changing your tune now then, eh? That's weird.
You have failed to prove anything, other than the fact that you have successfully discovered a religious fanatic, from which you decide you can make a sweeping generalization about a 'loving God' and his 'loving preachers'. So - not much new from you either.
And funny how you have work to do now, when you've finished posting around the site for about 2 hours. Whatever.


I don't understand what you're trying to say with this post.
I can post and work at the same time there hombre. You're ignorance is what gives christians a bad name. Contact David or Jawstheme and start taking notes ;-)

[ted is lying]

Animalhil, just got wrecked can't even come up with a counter argument.

[muttley]

You guys get a bad rap, don't you? When I went to Sedona, everyone was really nice.

Sedona is one of the best, if not the best cities in this whole damn state. What brought you over there?

[alice+interiors]

I can post and work at the same time there hombre. You're ignorance is what gives christians a bad name. Contact David or Jawstheme and start taking notes ;-)
Just... not any more, right?
Also, I love the combination of an incorrect form of 'Your' and 'ignorance' in such close proximity. Beautiful.

[GeeBee]

Just... not any more, right?
Also, I love the combination of an incorrect form of 'Your' and 'ignorance' in such close proximity. Beautiful.

Prove that "salvation" exists and is necessarily needed. Then we'll talk. Until then, pull your head out of your ass and stop picking fights.

[Animalhill]

Just... not any more, right?
Also, I love the combination of an incorrect form of 'Your' and 'ignorance' in such close proximity. Beautiful.
Such grammatical errors tend to occur when I'm typing and maintaining a conversation with a constomer over the phone.
You'll learn when you're all grown up ;-)

[Animalhill]

Prove that "salvation" exists and is necessarily needed. Then we'll talk. Until then, pull your head out of your ass and stop picking fights.
This little shit has been talking so much smack. So far, he's only reinforced the negative stereotypes regarding followers of his faith.

[My Broken Fever]

It all boils down to the same thing: you still don't believe you need it.
You don't know what you're talking about; what you're saying is absurd. I don't believe in salvation, it doesn't exist. I can't believe that I need, or do not need something which doesn't even exist and I don't believe in in the first place. I'm an antitheist; not a christian who said 'There is no god!' and then kept on going with the same ideas. All the ideas of christianity or any religion for that matter are utterly meaningless to me and I do not have an opinion on whether I need them or not; they do not exist to me.

[GeeBee]

This little shit has been talking so much smack. So far, he's only reinforced the negative stereotypes regarding followers of his faith.

What a douchenozzle.

Get saved, you dirty, sinful jew!

[Animalhill]

What a douchenozzle.

Get saved, you dirty, sinful jew!
:-d Nah. I'm not too worried. Already being a schizophrenic, Jewish rape-baby, what chance do I have!?

[alice+interiors]

Prove that "salvation" exists and is necessarily needed. Then we'll talk. Until then, pull your head out of your ass and stop picking fights.
Nah, I didn't pick a fight at all. I merely responded (in a fairly calm way, I think) to some guy ridiculing my opinions because of my age.

As for salvation.. it derives from a faith that your life isn't good enough, and that you need more of a purpose. You're asking me to prove something that is more than just an object, more than something that can necessarily be explained away.. I truly believe that it comes from an inner conviction that there is more to life. Then, upon discovering that, through close study of God/the Bible, you need salvation to get you to heaven. This is my opinion, and while I'm sure you'll be all too happy to pour scorn on it, please respect the fact that I've taken time out to try and explain this to you. It all comes from having faith in something which you can't necessarily see, or touch, which is a fundamental difference between atheists and theists.. and why science and religion often seem to clash.

[GeeBee]

Nah, I didn't pick a fight at all. I merely responded (in a fairly calm way, I think) to some guy ridiculing my opinions because of my age.

As for salvation.. it derives from a faith that your life isn't good enough, and that you need more of a purpose. You're asking me to prove something that is more than just an object, more than something that can necessarily be explained away.. I truly believe that it comes from an inner conviction that there is more to life. Then, upon discovering that, through close study of God/the Bible, you need salvation to get you to heaven. This is my opinion, and while I'm sure you'll be all too happy to pour scorn on it, please respect the fact that I've taken time out to try and explain this to you. It all comes from having faith in something which you can't necessarily see, or touch, which is a fundamental difference between atheists and theists.. and why science and religion often seem to clash.

Hence is not factual, hence STFU.

[alice+interiors]

This little shit has been talking so much smack. So far, he's only reinforced the negative stereotypes regarding followers of his faith.

What a douchenozzle.

Get saved, you dirty, sinful jew!

:-d Nah. I'm not too worried. Already being a schizophrenic, Jewish rape-baby, what chance do I have!?
I don't understand what you are gaining with posts like these. I don't mean to offend you; simply trying to state my opinion. Why do you have to be so petty and ignorant?

You don't know what you're talking about; what you're saying is absurd. I don't believe in salvation, it doesn't exist. I can't believe that I need, or do not need something which doesn't even exist and I don't believe in in the first place. I'm an antitheist; not a christian who said 'There is no god!' and then kept on going with the same ideas. All the ideas of christianity or any religion for that matter are utterly meaningless to me and I do not have an opinion on whether I need them or not; they do not exist to me.
Which is all fine.. but from a religious point of view I am still going to argue that salvation is essential to everyone.. I don't believe that on top of heaven and hell there will be a place for those who 'don't feel that it applies to them'.

[alice+interiors]

Hence is not factual, hence STFU.
That's quite a blind viewpoint you have. There is more to life than science and facts.

[GeeBee]

I don't understand what you are gaining with posts like these. I don't mean to offend you; simply trying to state my opinion. Why do you have to be so petty and ignorant?


Which is all fine.. but from a religious point of view I am still going to argue that salvation is essential to everyone.. I don't believe that on top of heaven and hell there will be a place for those who 'don't feel that it applies to them'.

Wrong. You tried to state your opinion as objective fact, by claiming that everyone needs salvation, especially atheists. That's patented bullshit. Don't pull that card if you don't want to be flamed, moron. I don't give a shit how old you are.

Believe what you want, but don't drag others into it.

[Animalhill]

That's quite a blind viewpoint you have. There is more to life than science and facts.
And you know this how?
Have you ever considered that we are simply bags of water floating on a rock in the abyss of space?
For every grain of sand on this entire planet, there are over a million stars. You don't matter. I don't matter. So live, and stimulate your senses.

[GeeBee]

That's quite a blind viewpoint you have. There is more to life than science and facts.

My eyes are open to viewing any proof you have to offer of the bolded assertion.

[GeeBee]

And you know this how?
Have you ever considered that we are simply bags of water floating on a rock in the abyss of space?
For every grain of sand on this entire planet, there are over a million stars. You don't matter. I don't matter. So live, and stimulate your senses.

=sin. You're a tempter, jew. A tempter.

[Animalhill]

=sin. You're a tempter, jew. A tempter.
:lol:
Edit: I'm laughing so hard my horns hurt.

[My Broken Fever]

Which is all fine.. but from a religious point of view I am still going to argue that salvation is essential to everyone.. I don't believe that on top of heaven and hell there will be a place for those who 'don't feel that it applies to them'.
But you didn't say that, you said that all atheists feel like they don't 'need' salvation, it was an absurd statement.

[alice+interiors]

Wrong. You tried to state your opinion as objective fact, by claiming that everyone needs salvation, especially atheists. That's patented bullshit. Don't pull that card if you don't want to be flamed, moron. I don't give a shit how old you are.

Believe what you want, but don't drag others into it.
No, I didn't. I never said anything other than that I think/believe that everyone needs salvation.

And you know this how?
Have you ever considered that we are simply bags of water floating on a rock in the abyss of space?
For every grain of sand on this entire planet, there are over a million stars. You don't matter. I don't matter. So live, and stimulate your senses.
My eyes are open to viewing any proof you have to offer of the bolded assertion.
Hearing both these things make me sad for the way humanity is heading. Both of these posts prove what I was saying about the gap between atheism and theism.

[alice+interiors]

But you didn't say that, you said that all atheists feel like they don't 'need' salvation, it was an absurd statement.
I don't see why at all.. it is all part of the same point. This argument is getting fairly tedious.

[Animalhill]

No, I didn't. I never said anything other than that I think/believe that everyone needs salvation.



Hearing both these things make me sad for the way humanity is heading. Both of these posts prove what I was saying about the gap between atheism and theism.
What? That you need a security blanket to shield you from the truth of our existence as bacteria on a beautiful planet?

[alice+interiors]

What? That you need a security blanket to shield you from the truth of our existence as bacteria on a beautiful planet?
Nah, nothing to do with that.

[Animalhill]

Nah, nothing to do with that.
On the contrary, it has everything to do with it.
Christianity is inherently derived of the ego of man.

[GeeBee]

No, I didn't. I never said anything other than that I think/believe that everyone needs salvation.

Funny, could've SWORN I read THESE POSTS BY YOU:

they feel the need to exert that not only there is no God ...and that they do not need salvation.

An atheist needs it more than a Christian...an atheist doesn't think they need it, or doesn't want it.

...you still don't believe you need it.

Also, since you're apparently blissfully ignorant of what atheism is:
ATHEISM =/= active belief in the non-existence of deity
ATHEISM = passive disbelief in the existence of deity

Your problem is that when you say "god" or "salvation", those are terms that are not cognitively meaningful, hence they're so fluid that even YOU can't explain them conclusively in any arena outside your own mind. Do some reading on Theological Noncognitivism.

Hearing both these things make me sad for the way humanity is heading. Both of these posts prove what I was saying about the gap between rational thinking and whimsical fancy. Fixed. You cast your lot with the latter.
I don't see why at all.. it is all part of the same point. This argument is getting fairly tedious.
NOW who's the one retreating in defeat?

[alice+interiors]

Funny, could've SWORN I read THESE POSTS BY YOU:
Those posts were taken out of context and were all opinion based.. I had assumed it would be understood in that sense. Apparently I have to state things obviously right down to the last letter.


Also, since you're apparently blissfully ignorant of what atheism is:
ATHEISM =/= active belief in the non-existence of deity
ATHEISM = passive disbelief in the existence of deity
Atheism can either be the rejection of theism, or the position that deities do not exist.' So actually, this is incorrect.

Your problem is that when you say "god" or "salvation", those are terms that are not cognitively meaningful, hence they're so fluid that even YOU can't explain them conclusively in any arena outside your own mind. Do some reading on Theological Noncognitivism.
Then surely any argument on the subject is irrelevant?

Fixed. You cast your lot with the latter.
Opinion.

NOW who's the one retreating in defeat?
Entirely out of context. If you read back through that argument, you would see that it really is going around in circles.

[GeeBee]

Those posts were taken out of context and were all opinion based.. I had assumed it would be understood in that sense. Apparently I have to state things obviously right down to the last letter.
Yes, it would be nice if you could preface things that cannot be factually proven with "in my opinion" to make it clear that you're not attempting to force your religious beliefs on the whole of humanity.

Atheism can either be the rejection of theism, or the position that deities do not exist.' So actually, this is incorrect.
Wrong. I would tell you to take a low-level philosophy course, but they don't offer that in 10th grade.
'A' meaning "without". "Theism" meaning belief in deity. ATHEISM. I don't believe in god like I don't believe in fairies. As soon as ample evidence comes up for either, I'm game. Game for acknowledging it. As far as worshiping, that's a different story. I'm against the Christian god on principle. He comes off as insecure, childish, and vindictive. To hell with him, so to speak.

You started this argument, btw.

[GeeBee]

Then surely any argument on the subject is irrelevant?

Yes, it is. I'm not making any assertions. I'm rejecting yours.

[Animalhill]

Yes, it would be nice if you could preface things that cannot be factually proven with "in my opinion" to make it clear that you're not attempting to force your religious beliefs on the whole of humanity.


Wrong. I would tell you to take a low-level philosophy course, but they don't offer that in 10th grade.
'A' meaning "without". "Theism" meaning belief in deity. ATHEISM. I don't believe in god like I don't believe in fairies. As soon as ample evidence comes up for either, I'm game. Game for acknowledging it. As far as worshiping, that's a different story. I'm against the Christian god on principle. He comes off as insecure, childish, and vindictive. To hell with him, so to speak.

You started this argument, btw.
:-d

[cory-182]

Leave it to the liberals to blame everything on race and racism.

The pastor is a bit extreme in his belief, however, he "dislikes" Obama because of his political agenda and his ideas. Not because of the color of his skin or his religious beliefs.

[Animalhill]

Leave it to the liberals to blame everything on race and racism.

The pastor is a bit extreme in his belief, however, he "dislikes" Obama because of his political agenda and his ideas. Not because of the color of his skin or his religious beliefs.
... what the fuck? THIS is officially the dumbest post I've seen in this forum from a non-joke account.

[GeeBee]

Leave it to the liberals to blame everything on race and racism.

The pastor is a bit extreme in his belief, however, he "dislikes" Obama because of his political agenda and his ideas.Not because of the color of his skinor his religious beliefs.

Conjecture on your part does not fact make.

In addition, please name one way in which your life has changed as of Jan. 20. This "agenda" and "ideas" of Obama's have done absolutely NOTHING to ANYONE to warrant this kind of moronic backlash.

[Praetor]

Leave it to the liberals to blame everything on race and racism.

The pastor is a little harsh. However, he "dislikes" Obama because of his political agenda and his ideas. Not because of the color of his skin.

Liberals never fail to amaze me.
haha and leave it to you to type something that dumb and think it's intelligent enough to actually show the world. No one in this thread, at the time that you posted that, liberal or conservative, has attributed his feelings to race. Sounds like someone's looking a little too hard for opportunities to bash liberals.

Oh, and the case can very easily be made for a strong relationship between thinly-veiled racism and some of the current neoconservative movements like the Birther movement, so those damned liberals aren't really that far off.

[Animalhill]

haha and leave it to you to type something that dumb and think it's intelligent enough to actually show the world. No one in this thread, liberal or conservative, has attributed his feelings to race. Sounds like someone's looking a little too hard for opportunities to bash liberals.

Oh, and the case can very easily be made for a strong relationship between thinly-veiled racism and some of the current neoconservative movements like the Birther movement, so those damned liberals aren't really that far off.
You and my little brother, both ridiculously mature and intelligent for your ages, would no doubt be best friends. Just saying.
EDIT: Whos in your avatar? I need to put a name to the face I am going to marry.

[GeeBee]

haha and leave it to you to type something that dumb and think it's intelligent enough to actually show the world. No one in this thread, at the time that you posted that, liberal or conservative, has attributed his feelings to race. Sounds like someone's looking a little too hard for opportunities to bash liberals.

Oh, and the case can very easily be made for a strong relationship between thinly-veiled racism and some of the current neoconservative movements like the Birther movement, so those damned liberals aren't really that far off.

Typical conservatives.
/sarcasm.

[Praetor]

You and my little brother, both ridiculously mature and intelligent for your ages, would no doubt be best friends. Just saying.
EDIT: Whos in your avatar? I need to put a name to the face I am going to marry.
As long as he's not a Jew we'd get along quite fine.

/steppin' on GeeBee's turf

And her name is Amber Coffman, she's in the Dirty Projectors. Aside from being absolutely adorable, she's very talented. Check out their newest music video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMPF6lpM0XM) in which both her talent/good looks are shown off. It's where I got my avatar from.

[Jefferson Rank]

Sedona is one of the best, if not the best cities in this whole damn state. What brought you over there?

Just for kicks. I was also in Pheonix and saw a damn big ostrich farm. Not one Rattlesnake though.

[Animalhill]

As long as he's not a Jew we'd get along quite fine.

/steppin' on GeeBee's turf

And her name is Amber Coffman, she's in the Dirty Projectors. Aside from being absolutely adorable, she's very talented. Check out their new music video (http://absolutepunk.net/www.stillnessisthemove.com/) in which both her talent/good looks are shown off. It's where I got my avatar from.
:lol: You're the man.
I'll check her out *knee slapper*. I generally dislike female songwriters- not out of bumbling chauvinism, simply empirics.
With that being said though, I fucking love Mirah. "Advisory Committee" is a great fucking album.

[Praetor]

:lol: You're the man.
I'll check her out *knee slapper*. I generally dislike female songwriters- not out of bumbling chauvinism, simply empirics.
With that being said though, I fucking love Mirah. "Advisory Committee" is a great fucking album.
Actually she just does backup vocals on most of the songs. She's not usually in the spotlight. Dave Long...something writes the songs/does most of the vocals. So you should be fine haha.

Pay special attention to 1:20 and 3:22 in that video...adorable.

[Animalhill]

Actually she just does backup vocals on most of the songs. She's not usually in the spotlight. Dave Long...something writes the songs/does most of the vocals. So you should be fine haha.

Pay special attention to 1:20 and 3:22 in that video...adorable.
haha will do my friend. In turn, you should check out the music video for The Love Language's song, "Sparxx".
A) They are an AMAZING fucking band. I saw them open for Cursive (it was either you or Machu Machu whos older brother goes to MIT and was at the same show).
B) The two females that play piano and sing backup are GORGEOUS.

[Praetor]

haha will do my friend. In turn, you should check out the music video for The Love Language's song, "Sparxx".
A) They are an AMAZING fucking band. I saw them open for Cursive (it was either you or Machu Machu whos older brother goes to MIT and was at the same show).
B) The two females that play piano and sing backup are GORGEOUS.
I'm watching a live version of one of their songs right now. Catchy. Funky bass. Very Pitchfork-y. Very neat.

And it was probably Machu Matt; I don't have an older brother haha.

[Animalhill]

I'm watching a live version of one of their songs right now. Catchy. Funky bass. Very Pitchfork-y. Very neat.

And it was probably Machu Matt; I don't have an older brother haha.
haha word- my bad. They have mad soul.

[Machu505]

I'm being mixed up with PraetorJohn? How insulting...

[Sic Transit Zeb]

haha and leave it to you to type something that dumb and think it's intelligent enough to actually show the world. No one in this thread, at the time that you posted that, liberal or conservative, has attributed his feelings to race. Sounds like someone's looking a little too hard for opportunities to bash liberals.

Oh, and the case can very easily be made for a strong relationship between thinly-veiled racism and some of the current neoconservative movements like the Birther movement, so those damned liberals aren't really that far off.

you rule.

x15232 on your post. I was going to type the same exact thing...i swear.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

haha and leave it to you to type something that dumb and think it's intelligent enough to actually show the world. No one in this thread, at the time that you posted that, liberal or conservative, has attributed his feelings to race. Sounds like someone's looking a little too hard for opportunities to bash liberals.

Oh, and the case can very easily be made for a strong relationship between thinly-veiled racism and some of the current neoconservative movements like the Birther movement, so those damned liberals aren't really that far off.

man, when i was 16 I wasn't thinking like that. I was only worried about the next football game and trying to have sex. Sadly enough, no much has changed. :)

[paper halo]

Leave it to the liberals to blame everything on race and racism.

The pastor is a bit extreme in his belief, however, he "dislikes" Obama because of his political agenda and his ideas. Not because of the color of his skin or his religious beliefs.

Just had a quick look at your profile, and I think this may go some way to explaining why you're so utterly stupid:

Favorite Books
Are you serious?

[Manicapathy]

This guy is the reason people like me hate the church. 1 bad apple, etc. etc.

[Regards]

Those posts were taken out of context and were all opinion based.. I had assumed it would be understood in that sense. Apparently I have to state things obviously right down to the last letter.



Atheism can either be the rejection of theism, or the position that deities do not exist.' So actually, this is incorrect.


Then surely any argument on the subject is irrelevant?


Opinion.


Entirely out of context. If you read back through that argument, you would see that it really is going around in circles.
It's not worth it broski, as soon as you find out someone believes science is the end all and be all of everything, you know that you've reached a point beyond reason. Ironic eh?

[Machu505]

man, when i was 16 I wasn't thinking like that. I was only worried about the next football game and trying to have sex. Sadly enough, no much has changed. :)
I don't think the three are mutually exclusive. :-d

[Sic Transit Zeb]

I don't think the three are mutually exclusive. :-d

hahaha. So you say! Nerd!

JK!!!!!

[Sic Transit Zeb]

Those posts were taken out of context and were all opinion based.. I had assumed it would be understood in that sense. Apparently I have to state things obviously right down to the last letter.



Atheism can either be the rejection of theism, or the position that deities do not exist.' So actually, this is incorrect.

Then surely any argument on the subject is irrelevant?

Opinion.


Entirely out of context. If you read back through that argument, you would see that it really is going around in circles.



I agree with anthropocentrism rather than theocentrisim. Honestly though, whatever makes the person happy andt hey feel is actually them, I'm all for. I could careless if someone is a bible thumper, a believer, or an atheist. As long as you're not an asshole about it, I'm cool with it.

[ExplodingStereo]

This guy is the reason people like me hate the church. 1 bad apple, etc. etc.

Eh, I find that a little ignorant, even though what this pastor is saying and doing is horrific. That's as if you heard one bad song on the radio and then saying you hate all music. The church and religion in general is supposed to make you question who you are and how you can become a better person, as well as, of course, guide you towards a relationship with God. For years, I hated the traditional Catholic church because it was stuck in tired-out traditions and held little importance in my life. I then found a non-denominational church that introduced me to books and speakers not complaining about abortion or Obama and whatnot, but about how religion has become so marred by these extremist beliefs and what living a true faith is about. I'm not telling you to become a crazy Jesus Freak or something (I'm not even there yet, still holding a ton of resentment towards my old church), but just explore literature out there and get a fuller grasp of it all. I suggest The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis, it's a classic.

[Praetor]

I'm being mixed up with PraetorJohn? How insulting...
Okay, that's it. I'm challenging you in the 2032 Democratic primary.

[Machu505]

Okay, that's it. I'm challenging you in the 2032 Democratic primary.
Oh hell no. The Democratic base truly appreciates a bearded mountain man. You've no chance.

[Praetor]

Oh hell no. The Democratic base truly appreciates a bearded mountain man. You've no chance.
I've still got time to grow an epic beard! And I'll just change my birth certificate to make it look like I was born in the mountains. I hear that's all the rage these days with presidential candidates.

But seriously, if that was really the case, nobody would stand a chance against Bill Richardson.

[Manicapathy]

Eh, I find that a little ignorant, even though what this pastor is saying and doing is horrific. That's as if you heard one bad song on the radio and then saying you hate all music. The church and religion in general is supposed to make you question who you are and how you can become a better person, as well as, of course, guide you towards a relationship with God. For years, I hated the traditional Catholic church because it was stuck in tired-out traditions and held little importance in my life. I then found a non-denominational church that introduced me to books and speakers not complaining about abortion or Obama and whatnot, but about how religion has become so marred by these extremist beliefs and what living a true faith is about. I'm not telling you to become a crazy Jesus Freak or something (I'm not even there yet, still holding a ton of resentment towards my old church), but just explore literature out there and get a fuller grasp of it all. I suggest The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis, it's a classic.
I'm not saying i hate religion, just ORGANIZED religion. The bible has some good lessons to be learned in it, but you got all these different groups twisting it to fit their means. Church A says Jesus preached love and friendship, and Church B gets their panties in a wad and says that he preached compassion and brotherhood, war ensues. It's great that the non denominational thing worked out for you, but most of those types of places around where I live are these sappy "Look, the pastor is under 35, and there's a chick with a guitar who plays new age christian music in-between sermons!" It's like this really empty attempt to reach out to the younger set by trying to be "trendy" and it just comes off as kinda fake....to me anyway.

I basically read up on stuff like that when I can and make my own calls on that stuff. So far, the only people who seem to be getting it even half right is the black baptist church about 5 minutes from my house. You ever see the blues brothers? Remember the church scene.....it was like that, but fewer back flips.

[Regards]

I'm not saying i hate religion, just ORGANIZED religion. The bible has some good lessons to be learned in it, but you got all these different groups twisting it to fit their means. Church A says Jesus preached love and friendship, and Church B gets their panties in a wad and says that he preached compassion and brotherhood, war ensues. It's great that the non denominational thing worked out for you, but most of those types of places around where I live are these sappy "Look, the pastor is under 35, and there's a chick with a guitar who plays new age christian music in-between sermons!" It's like this really empty attempt to reach out to the younger set by trying to be "trendy" and it just comes off as kinda fake....to me anyway.

I basically read up on stuff like that when I can and make my own calls on that stuff. So far, the only people who seem to be getting it even half right is the black baptist church about 5 minutes from my house. You ever see the blues brothers? Remember the church scene.....it was like that, but fewer back flips.
I'd go to a church where James Brown is the pastor any day of the week.

[Machu505]

I've still got time to grow an epic beard! And I'll just change my birth certificate to make it look like I was born in the mountains. I hear that's all the rage these days with presidential candidates.

But seriously, if that was really the case, nobody would stand a chance against Bill Richardson.
We'll see. You'll be the Hillary to my Obama.

[Praetor]

We'll see. You'll be the Hillary to my Obama.
You mean we'll constantly bitch out one another during the primaries, putting our own self-interests ahead of the good of the party and the country, and then have what we said about each other used as ammunition against the winner by the opposite party? Deal.

[Manicapathy]

I'd go to a church where James Brown is the pastor any day of the week.
James: HAVE YOU SEEEEN THE LIGHT?
Elwood: YES! YES! JESUS H. TAP-DANCING CHRIST... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

[Machu505]

You mean we'll constantly bitch out one another during the primaries, putting our own self-interests ahead of the good of the party and the country, and then have what we said about each other used as ammunition against the winner by the opposite party? Deal.
And then the opposition will be soundly defeated, I'll give you some pity position in the administration, and then your wife will rescue reporters from totalitarian countries and thus get more media attention than you.

:-d

[GeeBee]

It's not worth it broski, as soon as you find out someone believes science is the end all and be all of everything, you know that you've reached a point beyond reason. Ironic eh?
As opposed to supernatural, metaphysical, speculatory conjecture being the center of our lives? As soon as I see ANY plausible (mind the difference between PLAUSIBLE and POSSIBLE) evidence for deity, afterlife, salvation, etc...I'll acknowledge it. But for now, I'm not hedging any bets with my entire LIFE and worldview on invisible mute people who can't show up on videotape.
James: HAVE YOU SEEEEN THE LIGHT?
Elwood: YES! YES! JESUS H. TAP-DANCING CHRIST... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!
:lol:

[UnderMyDreams]

Christianity is so hypocritical it disgusts me.

[Praetor]

And then the opposition will be soundly defeated, I'll give you some pity position in the administration, and then your wife will rescue reporters from totalitarian countries and thus get more media attention than you.

:-d
...then I'll whine about it and bitch out a foreign student for talking about her.

[Brand-new-123]

Christianity is so hypocritical it disgusts me.
Obama's a Christian.

[GeeBee]

Obama's a Christian.
:-0 I'd bet hard cash that at least 50% of all past presidents were either atheist or agnostic. Of course they couldn't admit to such.

[Machu505]

:-0 I'd bet hard cash that at least 50% of all past presidents were either atheist or agnostic. Of course they couldn't admit to such.
That means you, Abe Lincoln.

[ExplodingStereo]

I'm not saying i hate religion, just ORGANIZED religion. The bible has some good lessons to be learned in it, but you got all these different groups twisting it to fit their means. Church A says Jesus preached love and friendship, and Church B gets their panties in a wad and says that he preached compassion and brotherhood, war ensues. It's great that the non denominational thing worked out for you, but most of those types of places around where I live are these sappy "Look, the pastor is under 35, and there's a chick with a guitar who plays new age christian music in-between sermons!" It's like this really empty attempt to reach out to the younger set by trying to be "trendy" and it just comes off as kinda fake....to me anyway.

I basically read up on stuff like that when I can and make my own calls on that stuff. So far, the only people who seem to be getting it even half right is the black baptist church about 5 minutes from my house. You ever see the blues brothers? Remember the church scene.....it was like that, but fewer back flips.

Hahahaha, nice. I'd love to go to a church like that. That movie's amazing.

I totally respect your beliefs though; a lot of my friends are atheists and have little knowledge on any religion, so I'm glad to hear someone who actually has looked into churchs and stuff. Luckily, I don't really think my church is trying to fit into contemporary standards, but they just try to be a church that gives the most accurate, yet relate-able message. I'll paste the link below, but my church occasionally puts a sermon on their site to play, so, if you're at all interested, check out. But I'd say don't give up on searching and looking for different views and faiths. I still hold a ton of resentment towards the Catholic Church, but I don't think I'll give up because of it seeing as some Christian books and sermons have really challenged the way I think, even though I can't say I'm a total believer yet.

http://www.newenglandchapel.org/