Some simple logic that Mr. Obama doesn't understand, regarding summer vacation

[Roton7]

If Obama's supposed plans to shorten or remove summer vacation were to go into effect, the number of dropouts would shoot way up, and children's grades would shoot way down.

Now, I know what you're all going to say... "A lot of places already don't have any form of summer vacation, and the students there are doing fine!" In the way that this society has trained kids to rely on breaks of any sort, it would not work. I can tell you for sure that in order to maintain good grades, you need time without school. To be honest, if the government wants everyone's grades to be better, they ought to make more breaks in the school year. Overworking doesn't pay off.





Now feel free to criticize me.

[Josh Weinstein]

I'm 25 years old. If kids go to school 280 days out of the year, I don't give a shit. Doesn't affect me one bit. Now, Mr. Obama... please give me health care at a low cost. Gimme gimme gimme!

[Josh Weinstein]

If Obama's supposed plans to shorten or remove summer vacation were to go into effect, the number of dropouts would shoot way up, and children's grades would shoot way down.

Now, I know what you're all going to say... "A lot of places already don't have any form of summer vacation, and the students there are doing fine!" In the way that this society has trained kids to rely on breaks of any sort, it would not work. I can tell you for sure that in order to maintain good grades, you need time without school. To be honest, if the government wants everyone's grades to be better, they ought to make more breaks in the school year. Overworking doesn't pay off.





Now feel free to criticize me.

By the way, it was George W. Bush's No Child Left Behind that left teacher's curriculum to change their lesson plans to "teach to the test." Those federal testing exams in no way determines a student's intellect and prevented teachers from effectively educate their students and inspire them to learn on their own. Ask any teacher, they hate NCLB.

[loveisdead]

I'm missing the "logic." As far as I can see, logic would dictate that if other countries keep their kids in school longer and are producing smarter kids, we should follow in their footsteps. Not, if other countries keep their kids in school longer and are producing smarter kids, we should keep things the way they are cause kids need time off from school.

[pnkhrdwndr]

Really the government should just stay away from life. Why does he care if school has a break that's not cutting costs at all. it's doing nothing at all

[bNz719]

I'm missing the "logic." As far as I can see, logic would dictate that if other countries keep their kids in school longer and are producing smarter kids, we should follow in their footsteps. Not, if other countries keep their kids in school longer and are producing smarter kids, we should keep things the way they are cause kids need time off from school.

this.
/thread

[Duexy]

I'm missing the "logic." As far as I can see, logic would dictate that if other countries keep their kids in school longer and are producing smarter kids, we should follow in their footsteps. Not, if other countries keep their kids in school longer and are producing smarter kids, we should keep things the way they are cause kids need time off from school.

agreed.

[caveBEAR]

If Obama's supposed plans to shorten or remove summer vacation were to go into effect, the number of dropouts would shoot way up, and children's grades would shoot way down.

Now, I know what you're all going to say... "A lot of places already don't have any form of summer vacation, and the students there are doing fine!" In the way that this society has trained kids to rely on breaks of any sort, it would not work. I can tell you for sure that in order to maintain good grades, you need time without school. To be honest, if the government wants everyone's grades to be better, they ought to make more breaks in the school year. Overworking doesn't pay off.





Now feel free to criticize me.

The impact you were trying to make? It's a little offset by all the grammatical errors and simple sentence structure abominations in this half-assed tirade. If I were you, I'd stay in school the whole summer, if your grades don't already dictate doing so.

[QuikTrig]

I'm missing the "logic." As far as I can see, logic would dictate that if other countries keep their kids in school longer and are producing smarter kids, we should follow in their footsteps. Not, if other countries keep their kids in school longer and are producing smarter kids, we should keep things the way they are cause kids need time off from school.

not that i disagree, but don't you think its a lot more cultural as opposed to the schools structure. foreign children that grow up in the states and have the same amount of classroom hours generally are "smarter" anyway. i would venture to say (without researching) that these kids would test just as well as students from other countries.

so i don't really care about the schedule of the school year. the problem is inherent in society; most parents don't give a shit if their child is receiving A's, as opposed to B-/C+'s.

[Tead42]

the problem is inherent in society; most parents don't give a shit if their child is receiving A's, as opposed to B-/C+'s.
Not.

[Sventhegreat]

I would have to say that having a three summer long break, regardless of how awesome it was, definitely did not help kids. You don't remember anything from the year before and teachers waste at least a month trying to get everyone back in the swing of things and to help them remember the things they learned last year. It would help if it was shortened.

[WarpSpeedChewy]

All of it will be in vain if we can't find a better way to get those same kids into college. That worries me FAR more than extending the school year to be honest. Maybe more kids would care more if they knew they had a chance.

[Sventhegreat]

not that i disagree, but don't you think its a lot more cultural as opposed to the schools structure. foreign children that grow up in the states and have the same amount of classroom hours generally are "smarter" anyway. i would venture to say (without researching) that these kids would test just as well as students from other countries.

so i don't really care about the schedule of the school year. the problem is inherent in society; most parents don't give a shit if their child is receiving A's, as opposed to B-/C+'s.

Maybe your piece of shit parents didn't, but most do.

[etheritcher]

There are places...in this country...that go to school all year. In total, they don't go more days of the year. Their breaks are spread out. Christmas is a bit longer, summer is a bit shorter and there are more short breaks throughout the year. To me, that makes sense. Summer is an absolute waste to kids. How many times have you gone back to school and completely forgotten everything you just learned? Then you have to spend weeks relearning. Waste of time.

[saysmydoctor]

If Obama's supposed plans to shorten or remove summer vacation were to go into effect, the number of dropouts would shoot way up, and children's grades would shoot way down.

Now, I know what you're all going to say... "A lot of places already don't have any form of summer vacation, and the students there are doing fine!" In the way that this society has trained kids to rely on breaks of any sort, it would not work. I can tell you for sure that in order to maintain good grades, you need time without school. To be honest, if the government wants everyone's grades to be better, they ought to make more breaks in the school year. Overworking doesn't pay off.





Now feel free to criticize me.
You are creating a false correlation between how long the school year is to students dropping out. That's simply not how it works. Same with it correlated with the grades students would receive. As a matter of fact, it hasn't even been used as an argument against year-round schools.

Not to mention, his shortening of summer vacation would lead to a lengthening of another break during the school year. A week perhaps added on to spring break, etc. That's what year-round institutions in this nation do. For instance, in San Diego there are year-round institutions that take three week breaks sprinkled into the calendar. In California, where these kinds of institutions are open, reading scores actually increased by 13.7% (source (http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal?_nfpb=true&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED35222 3&searchtype=keyword&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=kw&_pageLabel=RecordDetails&objectId=0900019b8009a7a3&accno=ED352223&_nfls=false)).

Then again, results are mixed. Some say it works, some say it doesn't. Personally don't think the length of school is the priority in an education debate. Most schools across the country utilize a nine month calendar and we still are behind other developed nations in reading, math, and science. Another problem with public schools is a poor faculty spread. Public schools compared to private schools generally have more administrative staff than a private (http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/11200/20_Troubling_Facts_about_American_E ducation.html). This could be fixed.

As a matter of fact, there is a lot of proof saying that it's not how much we spend on education and how it correlates to student performance. Bottom line is, nothing you said is even remotely true.

[The Personist]

/thread

[QuikTrig]

Maybe your piece of shit parents didn't, but most do.

hey, fuck you.

and a lot don't.

and fuck you again, by the way.

[Sventhegreat]

hey, fuck you.

and a lot don't.

and fuck you again, by the way.

Sorry i'll rephrase that.

Maybe your piece of shit parents didn't, but most do.

[QuikTrig]

Sorry i'll rephrase that.

Maybe your piece of shit parents didn't, but most do.
slick.

i would love to know how my post indicated whatsoever that my parents are suddenly pieces of shit.

[The Personist]

You're just dumb.

[QuikTrig]

these forums are so productive.

[The Personist]

If you weren't a fucking moron, you'd probably get more out of it, love.

[QuikTrig]

then fucking explain to me how i'm a moron instead of doing your oh-so clever one-liners.

[Sventhegreat]

slick.

i would love to know how my post indicated whatsoever that my parents are suddenly pieces of shit.

"most parents don't give a shit if their child is receiving A's, as opposed to B-/C+'s."

Anyone who actually thinks that obviously went through it.

[The Personist]

then fucking explain to me how i'm a moron instead of doing your oh-so clever one-liners.
Because you think parents don't give a shit about their kids.

[QuikTrig]

"most parents don't give a shit if their child is receiving A's, as opposed to B-/C+'s."

Anyone who actually thinks that obviously went through it.

oh i obviously went through it. but not really. i was fine with 3 years of honor roll, a 4.1 weighted out of high school, and a degree (magna cum laude). i'm glad my parents were tough on me.

and i guess your experience is obviously the universal standard? find my some empirical evidence that suggests that most parents care about their children doing extremely well vs. doing extremely average and passing. guess what? you won't find anything on it because the response bias would make a study like that near impossible. so your fucking opinion is just as valid as mine.

[QuikTrig]

Because you think parents don't give a shit about their kids.

haha. i don't think a lot of parents don't give a shit about their kids grades. a little different.

i'm assuming we're using grades as a measure of intelligence, and yes, i stand by my opinion. i don't think that a significant amount of parents emphasize the importance of receiving A's in school. if a child brought home a report card (and this is even if they show it to their parents. do schools still require a parent's signature?) with B's and C's on it, i think a lot of parent's would just give them a "do better next time" , if even that.

[saysmydoctor]

There is definitely some empirical evidence out there to how the kind of household a child lives in compares to what kind of grade he gets. Kind of naive to say otherwise.

[QuikTrig]

There is definitely some empirical evidence out there to how the kind of household a child lives in compares to what kind of grade he gets. Kind of naive to say otherwise.

that is not what i was describing at all. do you guys honestly believe that all parents in america really care* about whether the grades their child brings home are A's as opposed to B's, C's, or lower?

*as in do something about it. active steps to prevent it from happening -- regulating free time, limiting house privileges, tutors, etc.

[Sventhegreat]

That's a great story and all, but maybe your parents should have taught you the value of truth and honesty.

[QuikTrig]

That's a great story and all, but maybe your parents should have taught you the value of truth and honesty.

i don't even know what the hell you're talking about anymore.

[saysmydoctor]

that is not what i was describing at all. do you guys honestly believe that all parents in america really care* about whether the grades their child brings home are A's as opposed to B's, C's, or lower?

*as in do something about it. active steps to prevent it from happening -- regulating free time, limiting house privileges, tutors, etc.
I believe all parents want the best for their children.

[The Personist]

I want to have kids so I can make their lives suck.

[Sventhegreat]

I want to have kids so I can make their lives suck.

That's clearly what, according to "Quiktrig," is the mentality of every soon-to-be parent out there.

[The Personist]

That's clearly what, according to "Quiktrig," is the mentality of every soon-to-be parent out there.
Can't wait! My wife'll pop those suckers out and then I will ignore them and drink myself into oblivion while they fail at school.

[zion the lion]

Maybe your piece of shit parents didn't, but most do.

Dont you think that's a bit out of line?

[Sventhegreat]

Dont you think that's a bit out of line?

I think it fit the situation. Don't you?

[The Personist]

Fuck. Zion the lion is in this thread. Everyone stop posting.

[zion the lion]

I think it fit the situation. Don't you?

Well, some parents dont pressure their kids at all, and those kids excel.

Fuck. Zion the lion is in this thread. Everyone stop posting.

Shit, maybe if we all stand reaaaaallly still, she'll think time froze and she'll wander away just as confused as she was when she wandered in here.

[saysmydoctor]

Seriously, Sventhegreat, shut the fuck up. You've successfully made an ass out of yourself, even people that agree with your underlying sentiment want you to shut the fuck up.

[QuikTrig]

I believe all parents want the best for their children.

I want to have kids so I can make their lives suck.

That's clearly what, according to "Quiktrig," is the mentality of every soon-to-be parent out there.

because that is clearly what i've been saying this whole time! yay. for the past 2 pages, i've been arguing that parents want their kids to fail.

and you are all right. i should concede. it's obvious that all parents out there find grades to be one of the most important aspects of their child's life. they are ALL taking active steps to ensure that their children graduate with honors. it's so painfully obvious that parent's are doing everything they can to change that B- on their childs report card to an A-, that it was dumb for me to ever think otherwise.

oh, except american test scores are very underwhelming. shit. that doesn't quite work out. is it that americans are genetically dumb? obviously not. so it must be the school system right? well then why is it that foreign students (see: asian americans) attend the same schools, with the same hours, courses, etc., yet consistently score higher and compose an overwhelming amount of top institutions.

if you do not think that family life/parents are at least partially responsible for the "failure" of american education, then you are...to put it lightly..fucking stupid.

[saysmydoctor]

because that is clearly what i've been saying this whole time! yay. for the past 2 pages, i've been arguing that parents want their kids to fail.

and you are all right. i should concede. it's obvious that all parents out there find grades to be one of the most important aspects of their child's life. they are ALL taking active steps to ensure that their children graduate with honors. it's so painfully obvious that parent's are doing everything they can to change that B- on their childs report card to an A-, that it was dumb for me to ever think otherwise.

oh, except american test scores are very underwhelming. shit. that doesn't quite work out. is it that americans are genetically dumb? obviously not. so it must be the school system right? well then why is it that foreign students (see: asian americans) attend the same schools, with the same hours, courses, etc., yet consistently score higher and compose an overwhelming amount of top institutions.

if you do not think that family life/parents are at least not partially responsible for the "failure" of american education, then you are...to put it lightly..fucking stupid.i
Way to misconstrue what I said completely.

[QuikTrig]

Way to misconstrue what I said completely.

i only quoted you because of that last post, and i think we both know that is NOT what i was trying to say, in the slightest.

i understand what you said about test scores and households, and agree, but it's a different argument then what i was trying to prove. so i'd be glad to talk about that if you want, but that last post was pointed more towards the two douchebags.

[The Personist]

Not a douche.

[saysmydoctor]

I do think a majority of parents push their children, I do. I think they are working against a system that is going to fail them though.

[bNz719]

:popcorn:

[QuikTrig]

Not a douche.

man, we just can't agree on anything today, can we?

I do think a majority of parents push their children, I do. I think they are working against a system that is going to fail them though.

i think the majority of parents push their children as well. but through experience, i have had a ton of friends who had no incentive to do better. grounding a kid for a day isn't going to suddenly change his C's to A's. there are no incentives, no deferment of household privileges, etc. i'm no parenting expert, but i do think that there is something fundamentally flawed with the way parent's "push" their children. i could guess as to why, but who knows. it's something instilled in the traditional american lifestyle, but hell if i know what it is.

i am in no way saying that our educational system is currently satisfactory or adequate, but i do think that the crux of the educational problem lies in the household. there has to be a reason that asian-americans undeniably do better in the same schools and end up in more top-tier institutions. genetics? i doubt it. peer influence? maybe. the only thing that's left: parental/family influence? i think we have a winner.

[saysmydoctor]

i think the majority of parents push their children as well. but through experience, i have had a ton of friends who had no incentive to do better. grounding a kid for a day isn't going to suddenly change his C's to A's. there are no incentives, no deferment of household privileges, etc. i'm no parenting expert, but i do think that there is something fundamentally flawed with the way parent's "push" their children. i could guess as to why, but who knows. it's something instilled in the traditional american lifestyle, but hell if i know what it is.

i am in no way saying that our educational system is currently satisfactory or adequate, but i do think that the crux of the educational problem lies in the household. there has to be a reason that asian-americans undeniably do better in the same schools and end up in more top-tier institutions. genetics? i doubt it. peer influence? maybe. the only thing that's left: parental/family influence? i think we have a winner.
I think you are pretty spot-on, actually. The system is 1. too expensive and 2. not funded appropriately. Year-round institutions are part of the solution. A three month break isn't necessary, that is a large gap that allows for a child to forget a lot. The lack of a national curriculum is part of the problem. What kids have coming out of high school is uneven across the country.

As for the home, yes, I think you are right, but I think it stems from a lack of faith in the system. The schools are set up so that kids can gain an education from a 'professional.' When they go home, their parents are supposed to be there to apply a real-world lens to it and to reinforce what they learn. I'd say in a lot of ways this doesn't happen. It's definitely a societal thing, which is ironic. Because people don't trust the government yet they send their kids to public schools and blame the school when their kids are stupid as if they don't have a hand in the education as well.

[The Personist]

John Ashbery > education

[QuikTrig]

the amount you have contributed to this thread is astounding, by the way.

[The Personist]

I'm actually doing my homework while I post in this thread. I win.

[Sventhegreat]

Seriously, Sventhegreat, shut the fuck up. You've successfully made an ass out of yourself, even people that agree with your underlying sentiment want you to shut the fuck up.

.....is that right?

[QuikTrig]

I'm actually doing my homework while I post in this thread. I win.

i hope it's on reading comprehension. you need to work on it.

.....is that right?

ya, pretty much.

[The Personist]

i hope it's on reading comprehension. you need to work on it.



ya, pretty much.
It's actually on script analysis and preparing to stage manage a play. I'd do my thorough poem critiques or my stage picturization exercises, but I have until Wednesday for them, so I'll hold off.

[Sventhegreat]

I'm actually doing my homework while I post in this thread. I win.

Well I am watching Starship Troopers, which definitely beats homework.

[Sventhegreat]

ya, pretty much.

Did anyone ever tell you that you're the reason they created birth control?

[saysmydoctor]

Did anyone ever tell you that you're the reason they created birth control?
You've contributed even less to this thread than David. You have been unnecessarily vicious for absolutely no reason and are contributing nothing to the discourse. Go do something more your speed like playing with Legos or Hot Wheels.

[bladerdude360]

You are creating a false correlation between how long the school year is to students dropping out. That's simply not how it works. Same with it correlated with the grades students would receive. As a matter of fact, it hasn't even been used as an argument against year-round schools.

Not to mention, his shortening of summer vacation would lead to a lengthening of another break during the school year. A week perhaps added on to spring break, etc. That's what year-round institutions in this nation do. For instance, in San Diego there are year-round institutions that take three week breaks sprinkled into the calendar. In California, where these kinds of institutions are open, reading scores actually increased by 13.7% (source (http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal?_nfpb=true&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED35222 3&searchtype=keyword&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=kw&_pageLabel=RecordDetails&objectId=0900019b8009a7a3&accno=ED352223&_nfls=false)).

Then again, results are mixed. Some say it works, some say it doesn't. Personally don't think the length of school is the priority in an education debate. Most schools across the country utilize a nine month calendar and we still are behind other developed nations in reading, math, and science. Another problem with public schools is a poor faculty spread. Public schools compared to private schools generally have more administrative staff than a private (http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/11200/20_Troubling_Facts_about_American_E ducation.html). This could be fixed.

As a matter of fact, there is a lot of proof saying that it's not how much we spend on education and how it correlates to student performance. Bottom line is, nothing you said is even remotely true.
Thank you for bringing some real logic into this thread.

OP is dumb. Zion the lion is retarded. Last few pages of that three-way argument are dumb. But this is smart.

[The Personist]

I don't even care if i contributed. I'm just bored.

[QuikTrig]

Did anyone ever tell you that you're the reason they created birth control?

you are so incredibly funny. i don't even know why i bother; talking to you is like arguing with a 10 year old.

[x togepi x]

I'm 25 years old. If kids go to school 280 days out of the year, I don't give a shit. Doesn't affect me one bit. Now, Mr. Obama... please give me health care at a low cost. Gimme gimme gimme!

seriously.

a lot of people are making a lot of generalizations in this thread. hilarity!

[jeremypeele]

i agree with billy

[TK]

Damn muslim trying to take away our Christian values and America's lifestyle. What's next?

[caveBEAR]

Maybe your piece of shit parents didn't, but most do.

Ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha. My mother is a teacher, I've worked in Extended Day After-School Programs since I was 16, and I am in school to become a teacher. Let me tell you, your parents may have given a shit, but (I won't say most) more parents than I would like to see just openly don't give a shit about the kid, let alone the kid's schoolwork.

[abcdefghijake]

If Obama's supposed plans to shorten or remove summer vacation were to go into effect, the number of dropouts would shoot way up, and children's grades would shoot way down.

Now, I know what you're all going to say... "A lot of places already don't have any form of summer vacation, and the students there are doing fine!" In the way that this society has trained kids to rely on breaks of any sort, it would not work. I can tell you for sure that in order to maintain good grades, you need time without school. To be honest, if the government wants everyone's grades to be better, they ought to make more breaks in the school year. Overworking doesn't pay off.





Now feel free to criticize me.

I went to public school, and a year round boarding school, you don't even notice the difference. It doesn't effect grades at all, and that's pretty ridiculous for you to think it would. You also get the same amount of time off it's just spread out more. I don't think you understand what year round school is, which confuses me as why you would pick this as an issue to discuss.

[caveBEAR]

I do think a majority of parents push their children, I do. I think they are working against a system that is going to fail them though.

What system? I hope you don't mean the school system? There are kids in 2nd and 3rd grade, that I have seen and marked papers for, who CAN'T READ. 2ND/3RD GRADE = CAN'T READ. Why can't these kids read? Obviously it's because the teacher failed this student and the other 25 in the class by not taking the time to intensely read to and practice reading with the kids, because, heavens knows, the parents are too busy on Facebook finding new hookups to give a shit about 'Goodnight, Moon'.

You and everyone else getting on that kid's case about saying that the reason that (some) kids do shitty in school is because the parents of the kids don't care if the kids get B's and C's, when the truth is that (some, and by some I mean an alarming amount) just don't give a shit about the kids in general.

(This is, of course, not saying that all parents don't care about their kids. I have also run into parents who have done amazing things and made huge sacrifices to make sure that their kids get the best education that they possibly can get...but we're not worried about those parents.)

[carnotaurhunter]

The impact you were trying to make? It's a little offset by all the grammatical errors and simple sentence structure abominations in this half-assed tirade. If I were you, I'd stay in school the whole summer, if your grades don't already dictate doing so.

Aside from the ellipses before his quote and one unnecessary comma, his "tirade" is grammatically correct and structurally sound. On the other hand, "The impact you were trying to make?" is not a complete sentence. So don't be an asshole just to be an asshole.

[ace1112]

shortening sumer breaks can not possibly reverse the damage don by NCLB. the real problem with america is a lack of ambition every kid is not only content with thier circumstances but lacks the ability to dream once they hit MS/ JHS i swear to god if i ever hear another kid say they want to be an accountant i will drop them right then and there. what america needs is the inspiration and idealism on which the country is founded on

[caveBEAR]

Aside from the ellipses before his quote and one unnecessary comma, his "tirade" is grammatically correct and structurally sound. On the other hand, "The impact you were trying to make?" is not a complete sentence. So don't be an asshole just to be an asshole.

Not in the mood to fight, but when I see someone say that Obama isn't understanding 'simple logic' because they don't want to lose their summer vacation, I instantly enter, 'Look, a whiny 5th grader' Mode and start typing mean things. My apologies, oh white knight.

[caveBEAR]

shortening sumer breaks can not possibly reverse the damage don by NCLB. the real problem with america is a lack of ambition every kid is not only content with thier circumstances but lacks the ability to dream once they hit MS/ JHS i swear to god if i ever hear another kid say they want to be an accountant i will drop them right then and there. what america needs is the inspiration and idealism on which the country is founded on

Why can being an accountant not be someone's dream? My little brother can shred on the guitar, but wants nothing more than to study business and accounting. He hates being in front of crowds, and volatile situations like live shows make him nervous, but numbers and business? He loves that. Why can't that be his dream?

[Sventhegreat]

Ha ha ha ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha. My mother is a teacher, I've worked in Extended Day After-School Programs since I was 16, and I am in school to become a teacher. Let me tell you, your parents may have given a shit, but (I won't say most) more parents than I would like to see just openly don't give a shit about the kid, let alone the kid's schoolwork.

I guess it was just different than with what I grew up with and the friends that I had. I know that those people are certainly out there.

[Sventhegreat]

you are so incredibly funny. i don't even know why i bother; talking to you is like arguing with a 10 year old.

Okay...well I thought that line was pretty funny.

[FueledByRock]

When has Obama said this? Any source on any of this?

[MyNameIsRoss]

I have no opinion on this.

[saysmydoctor]

When has Obama said this? Any source on any of this?
It hasn't gotten any major press attention but he has proposed an extended school day and a shortened summer break. Personally don't agree with an extended school day.

[Dunn.Nope]

the amount of effort it would take to even try this is unreal. teachers would need a HUGE increase in pay for those amount of hours, and even still there aren't enough teachers in areas where they need them the most (slums, middle of nowhere districts, etc.) also, some of the kids that I have been involved with working toward my teaching degree are offended when they are given any amount of work. what does that say? saying this will increase ambition makes me laugh as the majority of politicians haven't been in a public school classroom in over 15+ years. give me a break

[spansen]

If Obama's supposed plans to shorten or remove summer vacation were to go into effect, the number of dropouts would shoot way up, and children's grades would shoot way down.

Now, I know what you're all going to say... "A lot of places already don't have any form of summer vacation, and the students there are doing fine!" In the way that this society has trained kids to rely on breaks of any sort, it would not work. I can tell you for sure that in order to maintain good grades, you need time without school. To be honest, if the government wants everyone's grades to be better, they ought to make more breaks in the school year. Overworking doesn't pay off.





Now feel free to criticize me.

just sayin' this isn't all on his shoulders.. and, actually, i do better in my classes during summer school than the 'school year'.. sure, we like breaks, but who mentioned removing recess or the weekend?

[saysmydoctor]

the amount of effort it would take to even try this is unreal. teachers would need a HUGE increase in pay for those amount of hours, and even still there aren't enough teachers in areas where they need them the most (slums, middle of nowhere districts, etc.) also, some of the kids that I have been involved with working toward my teaching degree are offended when they are given any amount of work. what does that say? saying this will increase ambition makes me laugh as the majority of politicians haven't been in a public school classroom in over 15+ years. give me a break
There would be no change in pay because teachers would still be working the same amount of time. The proposal isn't just to shorten summer break and have kids go to school more. It's to disperse the vacation time given during the average summer break and shift it around to other vacations. Perhaps an increased spring break, increased winter break, etc. This way there is not a three month gap in learning. This would not affect pay. The only negative effect this could possibly have is on the tourism industry because parents are taking shorter vacations in the summer because their student children have a shorter break.

Which then moves on to who would fight this education reform the most? The tourism industry. In North Carolina, the beach communities and resorts appealed to the state because they said they were losing millions in potential profits because school started early in August. The state legislature moved the starting date towards the end of August.

[Roton7]

The impact you were trying to make? It's a little offset by all the grammatical errors and simple sentence structure abominations in this half-assed tirade. If I were you, I'd stay in school the whole summer, if your grades don't already dictate doing so.

Hahaha, I'm positive I get far better grades than you ever have.

[eons]

buncha obama **** in here.

[saysmydoctor]

buncha obama **** in here.
Not really.

[Machu505]

People at my school would only become more annoying if this happened.

But I make A's, so I don't really give a shit.

[PopPunkKid]

the amount of effort it would take to even try this is unreal. teachers would need a HUGE increase in pay for those amount of hours, and even still there aren't enough teachers in areas where they need them the most (slums, middle of nowhere districts, etc.) also, some of the kids that I have been involved with working toward my teaching degree are offended when they are given any amount of work. what does that say? saying this will increase ambition makes me laugh as the majority of politicians haven't been in a public school classroom in over 15+ years. give me a break


This.

[saysmydoctor]

This.
Even though he is wrong?

Oh, cool.

[Roton7]

Whoever said that we need the same amount of school days, but with short breaks in between instead of one long break, is right. IMO.

:tramp:

[saysmydoctor]

Whoever said that we need the same amount of school days, but with short breaks in between instead of one long break, is right. IMO.

:tramp:
So you agreed with Barack Obama from the get-go? You are fucking stupid.

[QuikTrig]

hahahaha awesome.

[yves.]

an example of why the education system in America (or at least in south carolina) needs reform: I am in college, and last week in my world history class we had to take a map quiz. it was divided into two parts: a (modern) world map and an ancient world map. on the modern world map, all we had to do was label the continents and the oceans. according to my prof, a LOT of people labeled Asia as Europe. now, I realize that they border each other but wouldn't you think that they would recognize china or india on the map and think "oh, that's in Asia, I must be wrong"? apparently not.

I don't know about you guys but I remember learning the continents and shit in elementary school, and it isn't somethig you really forget (especially when almost every classroom has a map in it). I understand getting some of the oceans confused but damn, Asia and Europe?

[perceptrons]

an example of why the education system in America (or at least in south carolina) needs reform: I am in college, and last week in my world history class we had to take a map quiz. it was divided into two parts: a (modern) world map and an ancient world map. on the modern world map, all we had to do was label the continents and the oceans. according to my prof, a LOT of people labeled Asia as Europe. now, I realize that they border each other but wouldn't you think that they would recognize china or india on the map and think "oh, that's in Asia, I must be wrong"? apparently not.

I don't know about you guys but I remember learning the continents and shit in elementary school, and it isn't somethig you really forget (especially when almost every classroom has a map in it). I understand getting some of the oceans confused but damn, Asia and Europe?
I wouldn't say confusing oceans is understandable either.

[Broclee]

Which then moves on to who would fight this education reform the most? The tourism industry. In North Carolina, the beach communities and resorts appealed to the state because they said they were losing millions in potential profits because school started early in August. The state legislature moved the starting date towards the end of August.

Such a dumb move. This created a huge mess with exams and semesters for a lot of the high schools in/around my home county.

[saysmydoctor]

an example of why the education system in America (or at least in south carolina) needs reform: I am in college, and last week in my world history class we had to take a map quiz. it was divided into two parts: a (modern) world map and an ancient world map. on the modern world map, all we had to do was label the continents and the oceans. according to my prof, a LOT of people labeled Asia as Europe. now, I realize that they border each other but wouldn't you think that they would recognize china or india on the map and think "oh, that's in Asia, I must be wrong"? apparently not.

I don't know about you guys but I remember learning the continents and shit in elementary school, and it isn't somethig you really forget (especially when almost every classroom has a map in it). I understand getting some of the oceans confused but damn, Asia and Europe?
Some sort of universal curriculum needs to be put into place, yes.
Such a dumb move. This created a huge mess with exams and semesters for a lot of the high schools in/around my home county.
But at least the tourism industry saw six figure profits the following summer.

[caveBEAR]

I wouldn't say confusing oceans is understandable either.

Yeah, I agree. There's only four. Atlantic - Right of America. Pacific - Left of America. Arctic - Right near the arctic. Indian - Right near India. Done.

[saysmydoctor]

What's an India? They aren't a part of the G8 they don't matter.

[perceptrons]

I think the main problem is that there are far too many parents who just don't care about their children's education. Not only that, there are far too many parents who flat out don't want their children to learn everything that is being taught to them. I not attempting to to start a religious debate here, but I'm sure you all know what I am referring to.

[yves.]

Some sort of universal curriculum needs to be put into place, yes.

definitely, and it would also be convenient for standardized tests. i know i didn't learn most of the shit that was on the ACT's science section and some trig on the SAT math section in school.

I wouldn't say confusing oceans is understandable either.

hahah i agree. i think the arctic ocean can be confusing, though, if you don't know arctic is north and antarctic is south.

[Broclee]

But at least the tourism industry saw six figure profits the following summer.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm. Lol.

[Roton7]

You are fucking stupid.

No, I'm really not, I just like to fuel discussion like this

[saysmydoctor]

definitely, and it would also be convenient for standardized tests. i know i didn't learn most of the shit that was on the ACT's science section and some trig on the SAT math section in school.
Even professionals say that the SAT is a piss poor test. We test our kids too much as well. Another huge problem.
I'm assuming this is sarcasm. Lol.
Yes.
No, I'm really not, I just like to fuel discussion like this
No, you are just really fucking stupid and got caught up in how much you don't know what you're talking about.

[caveBEAR]

No, you are just really fucking stupid and got caught up in how much you don't know what you're talking about.

Not uh! He totally had really good grades in school, so he can't just be fucking stupid.

[Roton7]

No, you are just really fucking stupid and got caught up in how much you don't know what you're talking about.

Oh okay, I guess I was mistaken on how stupid I am. You are clearly correct. :worship:

Not uh! He totally had really good grades in school, so he can't just be fucking stupid.

omg ya i kno rite

[oldwirehands]

Public education in this country is a joke. We're so far behind compared to other developed countries. I'm glad to see our president show some initiative on this issue. I honestly felt like most of my time in school was more of a social experience more than and educational. I wish it wasn't like that. Especially at really young ages.

[caress me down]

Really the government should just stay away from life. Why does he care if school has a break that's not cutting costs at all. it's doing nothing at all
:hitself:

[caress me down]

Public education in this country is a joke. We're so far behind compared to other developed countries. I'm glad to see our president show some initiative on this issue. I honestly felt like most of my time in school was more of a social experience more than and educational. I wish it wasn't like that. Especially at really young ages.
I agree. Apparently in India by the time students are in our equivalent to 6th grade they are doing 12th grade math. That is just embarassing.

[tstick18]

There would be no change in pay because teachers would still be working the same amount of time. The proposal isn't just to shorten summer break and have kids go to school more. It's to disperse the vacation time given during the average summer break and shift it around to other vacations. Perhaps an increased spring break, increased winter break, etc. This way there is not a three month gap in learning. This would not affect pay. The only negative effect this could possibly have is on the tourism industry because parents are taking shorter vacations in the summer because their student children have a shorter break.

Which then moves on to who would fight this education reform the most? The tourism industry. In North Carolina, the beach communities and resorts appealed to the state because they said they were losing millions in potential profits because school started early in August. The state legislature moved the starting date towards the end of August.

I could see the teacher's union fighting for an increase in pay. The majority of my teachers throughout school worked another job during the summer for extra money. With the year-round system, they would no longer have that opportunity so they may look to be compensated. I'm not saying they should be, but it's a thought.

[perceptrons]

Just wondering, what would happen with summer school?

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

Surprised no one has brought up the numerous studies that show that teenage/child’s brains on a daily basis are not fully active till 9 or 10 am.

Schools should re-evaluate their daily hours

[yves.]

I agree. Apparently in India by the time students are in our equivalent to 6th grade they are doing 12th grade math. That is just embarassing.

i did my middle school years in an italian middle school and the math i did during seventh and eighth grade was the hardest math i've done. not only that, but the workload was extremely heavy. reading levels are way more advanced and the english and english grammar they taught was taught AGAIN to me in high school on the military base. oh, and every time students pass from elementary to middle school and middle to high school, they have to take entrance exams, oral and written, on everything (literally) they've learned. after middle school, you have to choose what kind of a high school you want to go into (it's pretty much like choosing majors. the typical choices are 'scientific', which is actually more of a general school; 'classic', where classes are focused more on greek, latin, italian, reading, and literature type of stuff; 'geometri' (not really sure how exactly to translate that, it isn't geometry per se) deals with more mathematical and architectural types of classes, 'linguistic' - self explanatory, and there are music and art schools) and once you're in high school you don't get to choose the subjects you want and normally you take 13 subjects per year. at the end of five years of that, you take a "maturity exam," which is really fucking hard and blah blah blah. if you fail that or either of the elementary or middle school exams, you have to repeat the last grade you were in. this kid in my 8th grade class was 15 and he had failed the entrance exam to high school three times.

[Roton7]

Just wondering, what would happen with summer school?

There would be break school, where you take classes during the different smaller breaks. Duhhh.

[Duexy]

i did my middle school years in an italian middle school and the math i did during seventh and eighth grade was the hardest math i've done. not only that, but the workload was extremely heavy. reading levels are way more advanced and the english and english grammar they taught was taught AGAIN to me in high school on the military base. oh, and every time students pass from elementary to middle school and middle to high school, they have to take entrance exams, oral and written, on everything (literally) they've learned. after middle school, you have to choose what kind of a high school you want to go into (it's pretty much like choosing majors. the typical choices are 'scientific', which is actually more of a general school; 'classic', where classes are focused more on greek, latin, italian, reading, and literature type of stuff; 'geometri' (not really sure how exactly to translate that, it isn't geometry per se) deals with more mathematical and architectural types of classes, 'linguistic' - self explanatory, and there are music and art schools) and once you're in high school you don't get to choose the subjects you want and normally you take 13 subjects per year. at the end of five years of that, you take a "maturity exam," which is really fucking hard and blah blah blah. if you fail that or either of the elementary or middle school exams, you have to repeat the last grade you were in. this kid in my 8th grade class was 15 and he had failed the entrance exam to high school three times.

Did you go to the Italian middle school while one of your parents was stationed in Italy? That must've been a crazy experience. My father was stationed here in Japan for three years from when I was twelve until I was fifteen, but I don't even think there was an option for off-base education. Did you have to learn Italian or were your courses taught in English?

[yves.]

Did you go to the Italian middle school while one of your parents was stationed in Italy? That must've been a crazy experience. My father was stationed here in Japan for three years from when I was twelve until I was fifteen, but I don't even think there was an option for off-base education. Did you have to learn Italian or were your courses taught in English?

i was born in italy and lived there for most of my life and my mom is italian so i didn't have to learn it or anything, but my dad was a civilian and he worked on base. it was just a regular italian middle school and everything was taught in italian. there were a few kids who were actually americans and their parents sent them to school off base and it was pretty much a full immersion thing for them because they didn't know italian.

[Duexy]

i was born in italy and lived there for most of my life and my mom is italian so i didn't have to learn it or anything, but my dad was a civilian and he worked on base. it was just a regular italian middle school and everything was taught in italian. there were a few kids who were actually americans and their parents sent them to school off base and it was pretty much a full immersion thing for them because they didn't know italian.

Wow thats awesome. I've spent a little over four years of my life here in Japan and I still don't have a firm grip on the language. I wish I could have gone to school off-base.

[yves.]

Wow thats awesome. I've spent a little over four years of my life here in Japan and I still don't have a firm grip on the language. I wish I could have gone to school off-base.

living in japan must be really cool though, at least you're getting to know a completely different culture than a western one.

[Roton7]

Surprised no one has brought up the numerous studies that show that teenage/child’s brains on a daily basis are not fully active till 9 or 10 am.

But think of it this way... if school is pushed forward a few hours, kids would go to bed a few hours later than they do now and wake up a few hours later than they do now. It would just be the same as always. I'm fairly certain that the time when a kid's brain is "active" is completely dependent on when they wake up.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

good point. I didn't think about the dependence on when they woke up

[perceptrons]

That's not a good point, certain chemical levels in the brain are highest at around 7-8 am, and has nothing to do with when the person went to sleep.

[Broclee]

That's not a good point, certain chemical levels in the brain are highest at around 7-8 am, and has nothing to do with when the person went to sleep.
Ding ding ding.

[saysmydoctor]

But think of it this way... if school is pushed forward a few hours, kids would go to bed a few hours later than they do now and wake up a few hours later than they do now. It would just be the same as always. I'm fairly certain that the time when a kid's brain is "active" is completely dependent on when they wake up.
Changing school from a 7AM-2PM schedule to a 10AM-4PM won't really change when they go to bed at all. Unless kids are going to bed at 3AM before a school day, which leads us back to the parents.

[saysmydoctor]

I could see the teacher's union fighting for an increase in pay. The majority of my teachers throughout school worked another job during the summer for extra money. With the year-round system, they would no longer have that opportunity so they may look to be compensated. I'm not saying they should be, but it's a thought.
Well, when you reform the administrative costs of schools, you can at this point afford to pay teachers more (which I agree should happen, but then again I'd like to see a rise in teacher quality as well).

[Roton7]

Changing school from a 7AM-2PM schedule to a 10AM-4PM won't really change when they go to bed at all. Unless kids are going to bed at 3AM before a school day, which leads us back to the parents.

If the parent is completely oblivious to the fact that school starts at 10:00 instead of 7:00, then yes, they would probably make their parents go to bed at the exact same time as usual. I know my strict parents would certainly 'allow' me to stay up plenty later.

[Truman122]

Just another opinion, but I live in New Jersey (and I'm sure this is true all over the US) where it can get up to 90-100 degrees in the summer. Knowing that my school has no air conditioning, as I'm sure tons of schools don't, it'd cost a lot of money to pay for it. And if the government doesn't want to pay for it, they'd waste money by even having school open, as I'm sure loads of kids wouldn't even go.

This, plus the stress of having continuous schooling from the age of 5-18, makes it a horrible idea to extend school hours/cut summer vacation.

Like others have said before, a better alternative to raise test scores would be to start/end school later.

PS: I personally think that also having block scheduling across the US would help raise test scores.

[Broclee]

Just another opinion, but I live in New Jersey (and I'm sure this is true all over the US) where it can get up to 90-100 degrees in the summer. Knowing that my school has no air conditioning, as I'm sure tons of schools don't, it'd cost a lot of money to pay for it. And if the government doesn't want to pay for it, they'd waste money by even having school open, as I'm sure loads of kids wouldn't even go.

This, plus the stress of having continuous schooling from the age of 5-18, makes it a horrible idea to extend school hours/cut summer vacation.

Like others have said before, a better alternative to raise test scores would be to start/end school later.

PS: I personally think that also having block scheduling across the US would help raise test scores.
Your school doesn't have air conditioning? That's crazy.

[.invisible ink.]

Well, when you reform the administrative costs of schools, you can at this point afford to pay teachers more (which I agree should happen, but then again I'd like to see a rise in teacher quality as well).

Pay better salaries and better candidates will be more inclined to become teachers. I know that's the case for many professionals (including myself) who would love to teach but also want to be able to live the lifestyle they are accustomed to living.

School reform is necessary, I'm just not sure extending the school day without making other critical changes (such as eliminating the "No Child Left Behind" bullshit) is beneficial in and of itself, there needs to be a lot done to improve the quality of education in this country.

[Baby for Pree]

I'm not as up-to-date on this story as I should be, so can I get a few questions answered?

1. How are schools systems which are already so poor that they just barely operate on a day-to-day basis, expected to now extend their year by two-three months?

2. Will teachers be paid more for this extra two-three months of teaching? Or will we still be getting the same shitty wages for extra work?

[saysmydoctor]

I'm not as up-to-date on this story as I should be, so can I get a few questions answered?

1. How are schools systems which are already so poor that they just barely operate on a day-to-day basis, expected to now extend their year by two-three months?

2. Will teachers be paid more for this extra two-three months of teaching? Or will we still be getting the same shitty wages for extra work?
You are missing the point. He's not just extending the school year beyond the 180 days. He is simply shortening the length of a summer break and moving those days to other vacations, such as winter and spring break. The length of the school year does not change.

As a matter of fact, this will probably save schools money, because they'll be able to turn off the air conditioning and what-not in the summer, a longer winter break would allow them to turn the heat off longer in the winter, etc, etc. (It's marginal, but it's still savings.

[saysmydoctor]

Pay better salaries and better candidates will be more inclined to become teachers. I know that's the case for many professionals (including myself) who would love to teach but also want to be able to live the lifestyle they are accustomed to living.

School reform is necessary, I'm just not sure extending the school day without making other critical changes (such as eliminating the "No Child Left Behind" bullshit) is beneficial in and of itself, there needs to be a lot done to improve the quality of education in this country.
The system in place doesn't allow them to good in the first anyway. Hence why I can't teacher unions that beg and beg for salary hikes as priority number one. It's important, and I agree that they need it, but they should be more concerned the children--that's what they get into the profession for in the first place, hopefully.

[perceptrons]

I'd still like to know what would happen to summer school.

[saysmydoctor]

I'd have to assume that with the reforms they would see the need for summer-school decrease, so programs such as those would be factored out and they'd probably aim for cheaper programs.

[Baby for Pree]

You are missing the point. He's not just extending the school year beyond the 180 days. He is simply shortening the length of a summer break and moving those days to other vacations, such as winter and spring break. The length of the school year does not change.

As a matter of fact, this will probably save schools money, because they'll be able to turn off the air conditioning and what-not in the summer, a longer winter break would allow them to turn the heat off longer in the winter, etc, etc. (It's marginal, but it's still savings.
Winter break is already around three weeks as it is and that's plenty of time for students to "forget" all they've "learned." No matter where you put the breaks or how long they are, NCLB has educators teaching to a test, so the students are only asked to hold the information long enough to regurgitate it on an exam. The length of summer break has nothing to do with why kids forget the information.

[saysmydoctor]

Winter break is already around three weeks as it is and that's plenty of time for students to "forget" all they've "learned." No matter where you put the breaks or how long they are, NCLB has educators teaching to a test, so the students are only asked to hold the information long enough to regurgitate it on an exam. The length of summer break has nothing to do with why kids forget the information.
Winter break, on average, is about two and a half weeks, not nearly three months long like summer break. No one is defending NCLB, but even before NCLB went into affect, the same problems were plaguing the education system. You are switching arguments now because your monetary one wasn't justifiable. Now you are attacking a straw man. You have yet to prove that length of summer break has nothing to with why kids forget information. While there is numerous studies that show positive results of year-long institutions.

[Baby for Pree]

Winter break, on average, is about two and a half weeks, not nearly three months long like summer break. No one is defending NCLB, but even before NCLB went into affect, the same problems were plaguing the education system. You are switching arguments now because your monetary one wasn't justifiable. Now you are attacking a straw man. You have yet to prove that length of summer break has nothing to with why kids forget information. While there is numerous studies that show positive results of year-long institutions.
Like many in this thread have said, the grades that come out of year-round institutions are pretty similar to those of traditional schools. If it's legitimately cheaper to run the school on a year-round schedule, I'd see some justification. If the only purpose of doing this is because kids are forgetting information from the previous year, it's definitely important to bring up NCLB, because it's set up a system where kids don't have to recall information from the previous year (assuming they grasped the general concepts).

[saysmydoctor]

It's not important to bring up NCLB if no one is defending the legislation. I think virtually everyone in this forum would like to see it repealed. We know it's bad. We know it's had inverse effects on the education system in this country. It was also bad before hand too. That's the point I'm making.

I actually showed a study that showed reading scores up in a few year-long institutions. The results are mixed with year-long institutions but I haven't seen a single study that shows them to have inverse effects on grades. Like you said, doing this with underfunded schools is probably detrimental.

Now, with the longer school day? That I don't agree with, but I think the hours need to be shifted, to something more reasonable: 10-4?

The education system needs to be reformed from the bottom up. Cut administration staff, that's the biggest drain on these schools. Use that money to hike teacher pay, more money to the arts, more money to athletic programs, more money to underfunded districts. Take your best teachers in a district and put them in the inner-city.

You know for all the shit Rhee gets in DC (and a lot is deserved), her no-nonsense approach to things is pleasing. I think she has the right idea in mind, but her methodology could use some work.

[saysmydoctor]

http://www.wcpss.net/year-round/year-round_factsheet.html

I don't know how many people follow Education Policy and what-not (I do), but Wake County is trying the year-round multi-track thing. I wonder how well it's working, I haven't seen any studies out of it.




I think people need to stop talking about cost when it comes to education. We're investing in our future.

[Baby for Pree]

It's not important to bring up NCLB if no one is defending the legislation. I think virtually everyone in this forum would like to see it repealed. We know it's bad. We know it's had inverse effects on the education system in this country. It was also bad before hand too. That's the point I'm making.

I actually showed a study that showed reading scores up in a few year-long institutions. The results are mixed with year-long institutions but I haven't seen a single study that shows them to have inverse effects on grades. Like you said, doing this with underfunded schools is probably detrimental.

Now, with the longer school day? That I don't agree with, but I think the hours need to be shifted, to something more reasonable: 10-4?

The education system needs to be reformed from the bottom up. Cut administration staff, that's the biggest drain on these schools. Use that money to hike teacher pay, more money to the arts, more money to athletic programs, more money to underfunded districts. Take your best teachers in a district and put them in the inner-city.

You know for all the shit Rhee gets in DC (and a lot is deserved), her no-nonsense approach to things is pleasing. I think she has the right idea in mind, but her methodology could use some work.
I agree that year-long institutions in and of themselves wouldn't cause any adverse affects on grades, but the backlash/frustration/sheer enormity of work involved in switching all school systems to a year-round system wouldn't really be worth the benefits. Like you said, the system needs major reform and I just see this particular idea as noble but ultimately useless. I agree with pretty much every one of your ideas for said reform except for the part of about moving the best teachers to the inner city. Don't get me wrong; those districts need talented teachers but the same type of skills that make a teacher successful in an affluent school won't necessarily translate to inner city schools (the zones of proximal development would be staggeringly different, culture shock for both the teacher and the students would come into play, etc.). I think the state should offer some kind of bonus pay for teaching in these districts, so young teachers would see more motivation in learning how to become successful in these areas.


I think people need to stop talking about cost when it comes to education. We're investing in our future.
I completely agree, although I try to avoid the word "investing." It's that concept that has lead to underfunding of lower-class districts. The state doesn't feel as if an "investment" in these students would be worth it.

Also, I'd like to see Charlotte-Mecklenberg's superintendent fired. He's seriously inept.

[saysmydoctor]

Well I see you grander point of not implementing a year-round format for all schools without structural reform. I don't know if you saw that multi-track system, but there is a way to save billions of dollars. Not to mention, year-round institutions has ripple effects. In the inner city schools, that keeps these kids off the streets (at least during the day) during the summer when they'd normally be about. I guess they would be on the streets at just a different time of year, but I think you see my grander point. Personally don't think states should be handling education--at least not K12. Education is usually the largest portion of the state budget and the first thing they go to cut. Put it under the federal government. The money it gives to states--no longer has to be done. So on and so forth, like I could detail my greater education plan but it's pretty idealistic.

And about that mentality, that's part of the problem--we should be investing even more heavily in them, because that's where you break the cycle.

Albany is looking for its new Superintendent on Craigslist: http://blog.timesunion.com/schools/finding-albany-schools-new-leader-on-craigslist/383/ Our new State Commissioner was just sworn in and his policies are already garnering some criticism: http://blog.timesunion.com/schools/secretly-taping-teachers/390/

Shouldn't say his policy, but the idea was his.

[.invisible ink.]

http://www.wcpss.net/year-round/year-round_factsheet.html

I don't know how many people follow Education Policy and what-not (I do), but Wake County is trying the year-round multi-track thing. I wonder how well it's working, I haven't seen any studies out of it.




I think people need to stop talking about cost when it comes to education. We're investing in our future.

I happen to live in Wake County and know that the vast majority of kids and parents who I've interacted with really like it. They've been doing it for a pretty long time (I didn't read the fact sheet, but I believe it's been going on for around 10 years or so already and continues to grow in the number of schools that are partaking). One thing you have to realize though is that NC has some of the worst schools in the nation. The education most receive here is sub-par compared to the rest of the country and I don't know whether test scores will reflect any major difference due to the year-round program. NC has laid off I believe 600 teachers this year due to cost issues. NC, while it may be progressive in year-round schooling, does not take education seriously as a priority when it comes to funding.

[saysmydoctor]

Yeah, I've been to schools in North Carolina. 47th in the nation. First in flight, though.

[Jefferson Rank]

I'm not as up-to-date on this story as I should be, so can I get a few questions answered?

1. How are schools systems which are already so poor that they just barely operate on a day-to-day basis, expected to now extend their year by two-three months?

2. Will teachers be paid more for this extra two-three months of teaching? Or will we still be getting the same shitty wages for extra work?

Schools get paid by the government per day according to attendance. Why do you think they stress it so much? So if they played their cards right, they'd have extra money.

Plus, my district spends extraniously anyway. I'd be more in favor of giving the teachers a raise then re-paving the parking lot every year.

[Baby for Pree]

Schools get paid by the government per day according to attendance. Why do you think they stress it so much? So if they played their cards right, they'd have extra money.

That's not true.

[Jefferson Rank]

That's not true.

That's how it works in Missouri. :shrug:

[saysmydoctor]

That's how it works in Missouri. :shrug:
Depends on the district and the general composition of the class. I know certain districts have students fill out forms where there is generally a high concentration of military dependent pupils.

[Ryan Mills]

I actually disagree that this will somehow "improve" the education in this country. I also find it somewhat amazing that kids can seemingly "forget" everything they learned in a school year. Perhaps it's because they never truly learned it very well in the first place? Either way, I don't think that the ultimate goal of middle school and high school should be to memorize a lot of facts anyway; instead, it should be to institute ways to learning, logical thinking, abstraction and give a basic groundwork of knowledge. A high school degree is almost completely useless by itself in terms of doing anything meaningful and advanced in terms of the sciences or the arts. What kids need is a groundwork in being successful in college. Sure, knowledge is a part of that, but whether you can remember details about the ancient civilizations is not going to be particularly important for most people. A large part of this problem, I imagine, are the kids themselves and the parents who raised them in such a way as to shrug off school as unimportant. You can learn just as well given the current school year system as they can in Japan if you are motivated. If you're not, an overhaul won't change much.

[bNz719]

I actually disagree that this will somehow "improve" the education in this country. I also find it somewhat amazing that kids can seemingly "forget" everything they learned in a school year. Perhaps it's because they never truly learned it very well in the first place? Either way, I don't think that the ultimate goal of middle school and high school should be to memorize a lot of facts anyway; instead, it should be to institute ways to learning, logical thinking, abstraction and give a basic groundwork of knowledge. A high school degree is almost completely useless by itself in terms of doing anything meaningful and advanced in terms of the sciences or the arts. What kids need is a groundwork in being successful in college. Sure, knowledge is a part of that, but whether you can remember details about the ancient civilizations is not going to be particularly important for most people. A large part of this problem, I imagine, are the kids themselves and the parents who raised them in such a way as to shrug off school as unimportant. You can learn just as well given the current school year system as they can in Japan if you are motivated. If you're not, an overhaul won't change much.

Bold quoted for emphasis.

[Broclee]

I actually disagree that this will somehow "improve" the education in this country. I also find it somewhat amazing that kids can seemingly "forget" everything they learned in a school year. Perhaps it's because they never truly learned it very well in the first place? Either way, I don't think that the ultimate goal of middle school and high school should be to memorize a lot of facts anyway; instead, it should be to institute ways to learning, logical thinking, abstraction and give a basic groundwork of knowledge. A high school degree is almost completely useless by itself in terms of doing anything meaningful and advanced in terms of the sciences or the arts. What kids need is a groundwork in being successful in college. Sure, knowledge is a part of that, but whether you can remember details about the ancient civilizations is not going to be particularly important for most people. A large part of this problem, I imagine, are the kids themselves and the parents who raised them in such a way as to shrug off school as unimportant. You can learn just as well given the current school year system as they can in Japan if you are motivated. If you're not, an overhaul won't change much.
All of my education and teaching professors wouldn't like you.

[Until The Bombs]

Late pass here, but...

You are creating a false correlation between how long the school year is to students dropping out. That's simply not how it works. Same with it correlated with the grades students would receive. As a matter of fact, it hasn't even been used as an argument against year-round schools.

Not to mention, his shortening of summer vacation would lead to a lengthening of another break during the school year. A week perhaps added on to spring break, etc. That's what year-round institutions in this nation do. For instance, in San Diego there are year-round institutions that take three week breaks sprinkled into the calendar. In California, where these kinds of institutions are open, reading scores actually increased by 13.7% (source (http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal?_nfpb=true&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED35222 3&searchtype=keyword&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=kw&_pageLabel=RecordDetails&objectId=0900019b8009a7a3&accno=ED352223&_nfls=false)).

Then again, results are mixed. Some say it works, some say it doesn't. Personally don't think the length of school is the priority in an education debate. Most schools across the country utilize a nine month calendar and we still are behind other developed nations in reading, math, and science. Another problem with public schools is a poor faculty spread. Public schools compared to private schools generally have more administrative staff than a private (http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/11200/20_Troubling_Facts_about_American_E ducation.html). This could be fixed.

As a matter of fact, there is a lot of proof saying that it's not how much we spend on education and how it correlates to student performance. Bottom line is, nothing you said is even remotely true.

Just a note, as I'm currently auditing federal funds public school districts receive, a large part of the reason for the additional admin is the staff required to monitor/petition for/do the paperwork for these federal funds to ensure that the school is getting the funds and that the funds are being properly expensed, be it for special education, free/reduced lunches, etc., as these funds are restricted in their use. Private schools do not rely on federal funds.

I do think a majority of parents push their children, I do. I think they are working against a system that is going to fail them though.

The students that receive the push from their parents aren't the ones who are in the most trouble. It's a generalization, but it's the inner city schools that are the biggest concern area, where parents are more likely to be working longer hours and thus less able to give proper attention to their children.

Public education in this country is a joke. We're so far behind compared to other developed countries. I'm glad to see our president show some initiative on this issue. I honestly felt like most of my time in school was more of a social experience more than and educational. I wish it wasn't like that. Especially at really young ages.

Same here.

Surprised no one has brought up the numerous studies that show that teenage/child’s brains on a daily basis are not fully active till 9 or 10 am.

Schools should re-evaluate their daily hours

The hours revolve around the general 9-5 work schedule. The school day needs to start early enough for parents to see their children off to school. I often start work around 7 or 8 am if I'm out at a client, is my brain fully active? No, but it doesn't mean that I'm in a compelte haze where I can't get anything done. Some minor imperfections within the system have to be expected.

Pay better salaries and better candidates will be more inclined to become teachers. I know that's the case for many professionals (including myself) who would love to teach but also want to be able to live the lifestyle they are accustomed to living.

School reform is necessary, I'm just not sure extending the school day without making other critical changes (such as eliminating the "No Child Left Behind" bullshit) is beneficial in and of itself, there needs to be a lot done to improve the quality of education in this country.

Agree 100%.

[Ryan Mills]

All of my education and teaching professors wouldn't like you.

I think knowledge is important, and obviously there are basic fundamentals people should learn, but coming away with ways to learn, how to think abstractly and concretely and having learned good study habits is just as important. I'll grant you that much of this goal requires underlying learning of material (mathematics for abstract thinking, various sciences for concrete thinking and reasoning and so on), but those should be more of a means to an end. The most important things I learned in high school were how to study, manage time, think abstractly and reason properly. I probably couldn't tell you much about all the facts I did know about European history, but I didn't forget those skills. Those are what made me successful in college and medical school. They aren't mutually exclusive, but I don't think we should forget what skills people need for college and beyond.

[BryterJonah]

All the people at my school who oppose this try really hard to pretend they don't actually spend what free time they are given procrastinating and wasting energy on relatively trivial things. I love school, I love my teachers, and to be ahead of the curve does not make me quiver in the least bit.

I really hope the whole shorter breaks, longer school days thing starts happening soon.

[Neo Cassady]

I could see the teacher's union fighting for an increase in pay. The majority of my teachers throughout school worked another job during the summer for extra money. With the year-round system, they would no longer have that opportunity so they may look to be compensated. I'm not saying they should be, but it's a thought.

I would fight like hell for a pay increase if year-round schooling was implemented. There's no way I'm surviving without a summer job.

Edit: Same goes for longer school days. Although school is only 6 hours for kids, teachers spend at the very least an hour before and an hour after doing planning/paperwork/etc. (and 8 hour days are written into most district contracts). Lengthening the school day would be forcing overtime, which demands extra compensation.

[BryterJonah]

I hope more of my money goes to supporting schools and beneficial things when I start having to pay taxes.

[Broclee]

I think knowledge is important, and obviously there are basic fundamentals people should learn, but coming away with ways to learn, how to think abstractly and concretely and having learned good study habits is just as important. I'll grant you that much of this goal requires underlying learning of material (mathematics for abstract thinking, various sciences for concrete thinking and reasoning and so on), but those should be more of a means to an end. The most important things I learned in high school were how to study, manage time, think abstractly and reason properly. I probably couldn't tell you much about all the facts I did know about European history, but I didn't forget those skills. Those are what made me successful in college and medical school. They aren't mutually exclusive, but I don't think we should forget what skills people need for college and beyond.
I don't necessarily disagree.

[v719789]

I'd be up for a change in school hours (10-5) and/or shortening summer vacation and adding the time onto other breaks. That way teachers don't have to spend as much time reviewing and can spend more time teaching new material.

[kianacarly]

I don't find anything wrong with shortening the summer vacation. I love it as much as the next teenager, but I absolutely hate spending up to a month reviewing over stuff because everyone has forgotten. But I agree that parents need to stress good grades to their children, or cutting down on summer vacation is kind of fruitless.

I'm in my senior year of high school and I see kids failing and skipping a majority of their classes, and their parents either never cared from the start, or have just given up trying. I've seen my own friends blatantly tell the counselor in charge of changing the class schedule that they want to drop an important class, or at least one that's just a tiny bit difficult, because they don't like the teacher/don't want to do the work, and they admit they will skip it everyday because they don't like that the teacher is strict. The counselor actually does it and this amazes me. I aid a beginner's photography class and it's mostly composed of freshmen, and it seems like their parents care even less than the senior parents. I've aided the beginner's photography class since my sophomore year and I've noticed that the students seem to care less and less each year, and it's taking weeks longer to explain the camera functions than it did before because they won't listen. They got a test where they had to identify the parts of the camera, and the teacher gave them the exact test to study with all the answers on it two weeks prior. I graded the tests, and only 4 kids out of 27 passed.

I'm in an AP government class, and even the kids in there are completely stupid. The teacher asked one of the students what lesson 21 was about, which is such an easy question that it's ridiculous. Even if she hadn't read it, the lesson was called 'suffrage' and the word appeared in bold numerous times, and she had her book open so she should have been able to fake it, if anything. She got it wrong. The teacher has to give us less lessons to read at a time than before, and has taken entire periods to go over what we read the night before just because a majority of the kids were failing the quizzes. This is advanced placement government.

Nothing is going to get done if parents continue to not stress the importance of good grades. Not all parents are like that, but it seems like it's getting worse and worse. Students need to start taking some responsibility and actually do their work instead of having next to no motivation. I've seen parents take entire days off work to follow their children around school. They follow them all day to make sure they attend all of their classes and stop skipping because their kid absolutely refuses to go. It's actually pretty depressing.

[Alou]

Summer helps you learn? I mean maybe like a month at best, but after that you're just forgetting shit. I mean I had to spend a month going over last years material at the beginning of school. It was a waste of time. I support this.

[Chuck!]

This shouldn't be a federal issue.

[Until The Bombs]

This shouldn't be a federal issue.

I'm interested as to why you think so.

[Jason Tate]

This shouldn't be a federal issue.
Uhhh ... ok, then the federal money gets pulled.

[Chuck!]

I'm interested as to why you think so.

Uhhh ... ok, then the federal money gets pulled.

That's exactly it--the federal money should be minimized. Funding, of course, means that Congress has influence over education policy, which should be left to the state and local level. I'm sure we can all agree that NCLB is a fiasco, and it's fundamentally because successful implementation of national standards is a pipe dream.

And though the Necessary and Proper Clause has been abused for decades, do remember that education is not mentioned in the Constitution.

[Until The Bombs]

Uhhh ... ok, then the federal money gets pulled.

Way to steal my thunder. That's what I was expecting to respond with.

[Until The Bombs]

That's exactly it--the federal money should be minimized. Funding, of course, means that Congress has influence over education policy, which should be left to the state and local level. I'm sure we can all agree that NCLB is a fiasco, and it's fundamentally because successful implementation of national standards is a pipe dream.

And though the Necessary and Proper Clause has been abused for decades, do remember that education is not mentioned in the Constitution.

To just look at two aspects, special education and free and reduced lunches rely heavily if not entirely on federal funding. Without the funding, the programs collapse.

[Jason Tate]

That's exactly it--the federal money should be minimized. Funding, of course, means that Congress has influence over education policy, which should be left to the state and local level. I'm sure we can all agree that NCLB is a fiasco, and it's fundamentally because successful implementation of national standards is a pipe dream.

And though the Necessary and Proper Clause has been abused for decades, do remember that education is not mentioned in the Constitution.
It not being in the Constitution doesn't mean it shouldn't be ... I believe a right to an education is as important as a right to a militia.

And the problem with state and local level education funding is that schools and the level of education and teachers will be even more influenced by geography. I believe that's wrong.

[Chuck!]

It not being in the Constitution doesn't mean it shouldn't be ... I believe a right to an education is as important as a right to a militia.

Perhaps so, and if an amendment process was successful, I'd support it. But for now, it's not there.

And the problem with state and local level education funding is that schools and the level of education and teachers will be even more influenced by geography. I believe that's wrong.
To just look at two aspects, special education and free and reduced lunches rely heavily if not entirely on federal funding. Without the funding, the programs collapse.

That's why I said "minimize" and not "eliminate." I'm not a blind states' rights advocate, but I think regulating the school term crosses the line. National intervention should happen only when there's a blatant discrepancy of education quality between regions.

[Jason Tate]

Perhaps so, and if an amendment process was successful, I'd support it. But for now, it's not there.




That's why I said "minimize" and not "eliminate." I'm not a blind states' rights advocate, but I think regulating the school term crosses the line. National intervention should happen only when there's a blatant discrepancy of education quality between regions.
... I think an argument could be made that there is "blatant discrepancy of education quality between regions" and at the very least we can see it's heading in that direction.

[Until The Bombs]

Perhaps so, and if an amendment process was successful, I'd support it. But for now, it's not there.




That's why I said "minimize" and not "eliminate." I'm not a blind states' rights advocate, but I think regulating the school term crosses the line. National intervention should happen only when there's a blatant discrepancy of education quality between regions.

If the government has any involvement, it's a federal issue. So "minimizing" federal involvement is contrary to your initial post.

[perceptrons]

No way would I support leaving more to the states, science education is struggling enough as it is.

[saysmydoctor]

The federal government should be handling the education as a whole. The fragmentation and responsibility given to the states is the biggest burden on a state's budget generally and is the root cause for the education system being the way it is today--and that is it being a piece of shit.

/personal opinion

[Chuck!]

... I think an argument could be made that there is "blatant discrepancy of education quality between regions" and at the very least we can see it's heading in that direction.

Not an expert by any means, but I'd guess that's because of lousy teachers and other school-related issues; extending time in a deficient school would have little influence on quality of education.

If the government has any involvement, it's a federal issue. So "minimizing" federal involvement is contrary to your initial post.

No? I said it shouldn't be a federal issue--not that it isn't currently being considered as one. My opinion is this: education (and anything else not in the enumerated powers) should be left to the states whenever possible. Federal contribution is obviously necessary at times, but there has to be a line somewhere, and I believe regulation of school schedules is unnecessary.

The federal government should be handling the education as a whole. The fragmentation and responsibility given to the states is the biggest burden on a state's budget generally and is the root cause for the education system being the way it is today--and that is it being a piece of shit.

/personal opinion

Thoughts on NCLB? Of course, better legislation could be written, but national standards are the root of its problems...

[saysmydoctor]

NCLB is a terrible piece of legislation that has probably put the education system as a whole back about 15-20 years and it has completely destroyed our teachers. They suck. Our teachers are stupid. And as a byproduct, so are the kids leaving school.