Tens of Millions! Great.

[Jason Tate]

The NSA has gathered the phone records of millions (http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-051106phones_lat,0,3979664.story%3F coll%3Dla-home-headlines) of Americans. USA Today reported that AT&T Corp., Verizon Communications Inc., and BellSouth Corp. telephone companies began turning over records of tens of millions of their customers' phone calls to the NSA shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

[Trainsaw]

Land of the Free?

[anamericangod]

have fun sorting that out, government

[KnoWs My NaMe]

fuck that

privacy is dead

[Jason Tate]

Land of the Free?
Your avatar is hilarious. And somehow I think these 10's of millions were ALL related to terrorism, right (/me drinks purple kool-aid)?

[Trainsaw]

Your avatar is hilarious. And somehow I think these 10's of millions were ALL related to terrorism, right (/me drinks purple kool-aid)?
Haha i saw it and was like "JACKPOT!", but on the issue at hand, yeah i guess if the government wants to see my text messages of perverted messages to my friends so be it.

[Jason Tate]

Haha i saw it and was like "JACKPOT!", but on the issue at hand, yeah i guess if the government wants to see my text messages of perverted messages to my friends so be it.
"Send me n00dz of Bin Laden!"

[anamericangod]

Haha i saw it and was like "JACKPOT!", but on the issue at hand, yeah i guess if the government wants to see my text messages of perverted messages to my friends so be it.

seriously

imagine how it must be to sort through all the trivial bullshit sent by young teenage girls.


mmmmm....young teenage girls

[Trainsaw]

"Send me n00dz of Bin Laden!"
Bush is going to get his sidekick hacked

[cahrishurr]

ohhhh snap

[lanesheats]

If this helps track down terrorist who are wanting to hurt innocent americans then im down for it but abusing the system is always hard to stop so hopefully it will be reviewed and thosed who used it for their own good and not the security of this nation should be punished. there not just randomly listening to your grandma tell her daughter about her apple pie recipe there looking for people with suspicious phone call records to those who are suspected terrorist.

[Tony]

If this helps track down terrorist who are wanting to hurt innocent americans then im down for it but abusing the system is always hard to stop so hopefully it will be reviewed and thosed who used it for their own good and not the security of this nation should be punished. there not just randomly listening to your grandma tell her daughter about her apple pie recipe there looking for people with suspicious phone call records to those who are suspected terrorist.
you might be willing to give up your right to privacy, but i'm not.

[IcedOpethBlind]

Haha i saw it and was like "JACKPOT!", but on the issue at hand, yeah i guess if the government wants to see my text messages of perverted messages to my friends so be it.

im pretty sure the only information they receive is records on what numbers call what numbers so this really isnt a huge deal.

[The Coalition]

The thing concerning me is the fact that these companies just handed them over so easily. That would be enough to make me cancel any services with said companies.

[Web250]

I'm so sick of this countries bullshit, full of lies, government.

I want a land of the free...not a land of "we'll protect your 'freedom' by spying on you"

[birdman]

i dont believe privacy is a right reserved in the consitiution...correct me if im wrong

[punkerz2003]

Wow. It's not as big of a deal as people make it out to be. I have nothing to hide, and if you don't either, why are you whining? If it helps get rid of a few terrorists, then it's worth it. There are much worse things in the world.

[Unclear Lies]

I'm finally seeing how our gov't needs to get their shit together...I just discovered the Loose Change Second Edition documentary today on video google...and that is hard hitting...our gov't=complete and utter bullshit

[drtcbt]

Wow. It's not as big of a deal as people make it out to be. I have nothing to hide, and if you don't either, why are you whining? If it helps get rid of a few terrorists, then it's worth it. There are much worse things in the world.


Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither, and lose both."
- Benjamin Franklin -

[zizou1790]

I'm so sick of this countries bullshit, full of lies, government.

I want a land of the free...not a land of "we'll protect your 'freedom' by spying on you"

if thye dont do that thouhg how will they protect us?

[born to expire]

If you're not a terrorist, then you shouldn't be pissed.

[electricpatrick]

what exactly is the problem?

[electricpatrick]

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither, and lose both."
- Benjamin Franklin -

what liberty are we giving up here? the liberty to call terrorists?

[histrionics22]

I'm finally seeing how our gov't needs to get their shit together...I just discovered the Loose Change Second Edition documentary today on video google...and that is hard hitting...our gov't=complete and utter bullshit

You're an idiot.

[histrionics22]

I'm so sick of this countries bullshit, full of lies, government.

I want a land of the free...not a land of "we'll protect your 'freedom' by spying on you"

And I'm sick of idiots like you overreacting over headlines made to make uneducated people like you overreact. Read a little about it because I'm sure you didn't. Maybe form your own opinion instead listening to bias opinions of others.

[Teoa_Fes]

You're an idiot.
have you ever watched loose change?

[domesticyeti]

im sure there are 10's of millions of terrorists in the country....

seriously. this is ridiculous. i did a huge paper on the Patriot Act, and the stuff about wire tapping and phone record collecting is just scary. It throws the Constitution out the window, and that's what founds our democracy.
anyone who wants to argue otherwise can leave the country and go to a dictatorship if they want to feel safer. i prefer to keep my freedom

[buysoap]

dont over react to this. all they can see who is who made what phone call to whom, they can't actually hear any conversations. ur phone company saw this shit anyway, its not an issue of privacy. they're just looking for "excessively long calls to afganhistan" or something. they're not going to be like "OMG LOOK THESE PEOPLE WERE TALKING IN MASSACHUSSETS, TERRORISTS OMG"

[satanisanerd]

You're scared of losing your privacy? Well just wait till they chip you:
www.verichipcorp.com (http://www.verichipcorp.com) Now that's scary.

[Hidenothing27]

im pretty sure the only information they receive is records on what numbers call what numbers so this really isnt a huge deal.
Thats exactly it... people all of the sudden think they are listening to 10 million calls and lets be honest.. that be the worse job ever.

[Hidenothing27]

I'm finally seeing how our gov't needs to get their shit together...I just discovered the Loose Change Second Edition documentary today on video google...and that is hard hitting...our gov't=complete and utter bullshit

please do not take that movie as truth.. america has always had its conspiracy theorys. granted that video has some strong points.. Its just too unrealistic.. too many people would have had to known it was going to happen and to let it happen is a different story... and to anyone that thinks that bush planned it please.. i in the past liked bush but he is not the sharpest tool in the shed and he would have been a mastermind to pull that off in 8 months after taking office in january... where would they find someone to fly a plane into the WTC... post a job on monster.com??

[KarateExplosion]

hey, as long as they prevent terrorist attacks, if they want to listen in on me drunk dialing some chick, my mom calling about recipes, and my sister complaining about it being 65 in florida, then they can listen to whatever they want. i could honestly give less of a damn.

[drtcbt]

what liberty are we giving up here? the liberty to call terrorists?



How about the liberty to call friends or family members in other countries without the fear of being branded a "terrorist". The biggest problem here is that we have no idea what can and will be done with this information.

[histrionics22]

How about the liberty to call friends or family members in other countries without the fear of being branded a "terrorist". The biggest problem here is that we have no idea what can and will be done with this information.


A lot of your extended family reside in Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Hidenothing27]

How about the liberty to call friends or family members in other countries without the fear of being branded a "terrorist". The biggest problem here is that we have no idea what can and will be done with this information.

the government will sell my secret recipe.. i cannot believe they will do that with my information.... I do agree that what is going on is messed up... its wrong but it worries me to think that people could be plotting things right over the phones and if wiretapping gave them the ability to stop that then its hard to draw the line... I have nothing to hide so i dont care... i know that is a bad idealogy and its not the heart of the real issue , but its just my view.

[12:46AM]

ohhhh canada, our home and native land. true patriot lovvvvve. in all our son's command. with glowing hearts, we see thee rise, the true north strong and free. from far and wide, oh canada, we stand on guard for theee. God keep our land, glorious and FREE. oh canada, we stand on guard for theeee. ohhhhh cannnnada, we stand on guard for theeeee.

[Hidenothing27]

ohhhh canada, our home and native land. true patriot lovvvvve. in all our son's command. with glowing hearts, we see thee rise, the true north strong and free. from far and wide, oh canada, we stand on guard for theee. God keep our land, glorious and FREE. oh canada, we stand on guard for theeee. ohhhhh cannnnada, we stand on guard for theeeee.
"oh canada, we stand on guard for theeee" You mean the U.S stand gaurd for you right.. cause whats your army.. like 100 people? if there was an invasion they'd def take you guys first. No offense its just the truth.. go to u.s soil first or canada? U.S or canada? It def be canada.

[clace]

that sucks if you called a 900 number that day. the government will now be listening to your hot and sexy phone calls to barely legal teens

[Jay We Fall]

i dont believe privacy is a right reserved in the consitiution...correct me if im wrong


hmm........


Amendment 4 - Search and seizure

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[Crazysimon]

Anyone in this forum trouble. I mean honestly, Its like everyone is looking for things to get upset at the government about. Nothing negative is coming from this, they are not listening to you and your friends private conversations and telling the world. Get over it already. What do you think their intentions are? Does it matter to them what you are talking about with your friends. If you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about.

[Jason Tate]

im pretty sure the only information they receive is records on what numbers call what numbers so this really isnt a huge deal.

It's not? I disagree. I think it's a very huge deal. Who I call is by no means my government's business. I am not paying taxes so someone can keep track of my phone calls.

i dont believe privacy is a right reserved in the consitiution...correct me if im wrong

The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. However, Supreme Court decisions over the years have established that the right to privacy is a basic human right, and as such is protected by virtue of the 9th Amendment (http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am9.html). In addition, it is said that a right to privacy is inherent in many of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, such as the 3rd (http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am3.html), the 4th (http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am4.html)'s search and seizure limits, and the 5th (http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_Am5.html)'s self-incrimination limit.

Wow. It's not as big of a deal as people make it out to be. I have nothing to hide, and if you don't either, why are you whining? If it helps get rid of a few terrorists, then it's worth it. There are much worse things in the world.

I think you miss the point entirely. If you're going to use the guise of, "nothing to hide" then does that mean every aspect of your life should be watched? Can we video tape every waking and sleeping moment of your life - put it on a TV and analyze it? You have nothing to hide, so why not? Come on! I know I took an extreme point of view, but that's how absurd this "well, why should I worry" mentality is to me. It matters because it shows our Government that people are willing to give up some liberties for the thought of safety. That's scary to me. It's a very slippery slope. Combine this with the inherent hypocracy of our current foreign policy - and you have a cocktail for disaster.

If you're not a terrorist, then you shouldn't be pissed.

If you're an American, you should be. It makes me think that the terrorists have succeeded in changing the very core of what America should stand for - freedom to be you, without fear of the information your government is collecting on you. Because, we know no one is every arrested or accused in a false manner - right? And we've never had anything like the McCarthy hearings or anything ...

what exactly is the problem?

See above.

what liberty are we giving up here? the liberty to call terrorists?

See above part 2.

dont over react to this. all they can see who is who made what phone call to whom, they can't actually hear any conversations. ur phone company saw this shit anyway, its not an issue of privacy. they're just looking for "excessively long calls to afganhistan" or something. they're not going to be like "OMG LOOK THESE PEOPLE WERE TALKING IN MASSACHUSSETS, TERRORISTS OMG"

Here's a thought - why didn't the phone company only turn over the 100 or so calls to Afganhistan then? Why 10's of millions of call reports? I know my Excel files sort and find information very well ... you think that would be a difficult thing to do? Why should innocents have their information shared by a company they are trusting (and paying)?

hey, as long as they prevent terrorist attacks, if they want to listen in on me drunk dialing some chick, my mom calling about recipes, and my sister complaining about it being 65 in florida, then they can listen to whatever they want. i could honestly give less of a damn.

I fear that giving up privacy for security will leave us with neither. I remember the days when the Republican party stood for "small government" that "stayed out of people's lives" - man how the Conservative party has changed. Why don't we try extending the benefits of freedom to the breeding grounds of terrorism instead of slowly making our system look more like theirs.

[Teoa_Fes]

"oh canada, we stand on guard for theeee" You mean the U.S stand gaurd for you right.. cause whats your army.. like 100 people? if there was an invasion they'd def take you guys first. No offense its just the truth.. go to u.s soil first or canada? U.S or canada? It def be canada.

ahah funny thing as morons repeat history over and over again. Hittler thought the same thing about Russia. Major fuck up...

[Jason Tate]

Anyone in this forum trouble. I mean honestly, Its like everyone is looking for things to get upset at the government about. Nothing negative is coming from this, they are not listening to you and your friends private conversations and telling the world. Get over it already. What do you think their intentions are? Does it matter to them what you are talking about with your friends. If you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
This mentality makes me sad and makes me fear what this country will look like in 100 years. Police states are incredibly "safe" environments where nothing bad can happen and everything you do is controlled. I'd imagine they're not much fun to live in though.

[histrionics22]

If you're an American, you should be. It makes me think that the terrorists have succeeded in changing the very core of what America should stand for - freedom to be you, without fear of the information your government is collecting on you. Because, we know no one is every arrested or accused in a false manner - right? And we've never had anything like the McCarthy hearings or anything ...

The terrorists changed America. Like it or not, changes had to be made. Would you rather everything stay the same and we never learn our lessom?


Here's a thought - why didn't the phone company only turn over the 100 or so calls to Afganhistan then? Why 10's of millions of call reports? I know my Excel files sort and find information very well ... you think that would be a difficult thing to do? Why should innocents have their information shared by a company they are trusting (and paying)?

Here's a thought - How about the terrorists that were arrested on American soil following 9/11? Sure not all of them are guilty, but wouldnt you feel safer if you knew the numbers they were calling? It's not the phone companies responsibility to know who the terrorists are. Turning over phone records only allows them to track who called possible suspects. Is there really a problem with that?



I fear that giving up privacy for security will leave us with neither. I remember the days when the Republican party stood for "small government" that "stayed out of people's lives" - man how the Conservative party has changed. Why don't we try extending the benefits of freedom to the breeding grounds of terrorism instead of slowly making our system look more like theirs.

Your inability and unwillingness to change post 9/11 worries me more than the government changing. The sad part is you are the people calling for the changes, then complain about them when they happen.

[Hidenothing27]

ahah funny thing as morons repeat history over and over again. Hittler thought the same thing about Russia. Major fuck up...


So canada is russia now?? Listen think about it... its not canadas fault but if you were going to envade america wouldnt you go after canada first. You have a hell of a lot less people and your army is hell of a lot smaller then the u.s is. I'd go for canada.. Its not your fault your army is not big and its not your fault canada is less populated then the u.s its just fact.

[CallMeChief]

oh no, this is terrible, the things Bush, himself (because, we all know, that it's bush that lays in bed at night, lifts the monocle to his eye and reads each persons phone records) will read, like the fact that i called my girlfriend at 10:09 p.m. on may 10th and it lasted 1 m. 4 s., is despicable. Seriously, if we have a terrorist attack, and this information leads to the government catching someone, people would probably still complain, because the government will still be able to see that i called my friend last week. The government doesnt give a shit about an 18 year old from shitsville, ?? and who they're calling on a regular basis unless that person is doing something that merits being investigated. deal with it.

[twelve2395]

"Send me n00dz of Bin Laden!"

http://www.randomperspective.com/images/osamanaked.jpg

[Jason Tate]

The terrorists changed America. Like it or not, changes had to be made. Would you rather everything stay the same and we never learn our lessom?

Here's a thought - How about the terrorists that were arrested on American soil following 9/11? Sure not all of them are guilty, but wouldnt you feel safer if you knew the numbers they were calling? It's not the phone companies responsibility to know who the terrorists are. Turning over phone records only allows them to track who called possible suspects. Is there really a problem with that?

Your inability and unwillingness to change post 9/11 worries me more than the government changing. The sad part is you are the people calling for the changes, then complain about them whenthey happen.

Learning our lesson to me means we fix the underlying problem, not just the symptoms. And learning or lesson has absolutely nothing to do with spying on American citizens. Furthermore, if America needs to change - we should change the way our Constitution says we should change. That means amending it! That means voting! That means checks and balances! That doesn't mean we give the President unbridled access to do whatever "he thinks is best." I'm fine with change when it's in tune with the foundation of this country - the very foundation that's kept us around longer then most other civilizations/governments. I refuse to look Iraq in the eye and say, "we're giving you freedom" - when we are curbing these very freedoms at home.

Yes. There is a problem with that. A big problem. According to various reports we know that the terrorists are using disposable and untraceable cell phones. Therefore what do the phone records serve a purpose for? And if the government has suspects why can't they get a court order to tap those suspects phones? Or get a warrant to seize their phone records? Taking 10's of millions of phone records is not even close to what you're describing. And I think you know it.

[Jason Tate]

oh no, this is terrible, the things Bush, himself (because, we all know, that it's bush that lays in bed at night, lifts the monocle to his eye and reads each persons phone records) will read, like the fact that i called my girlfriend at 10:09 p.m. on may 10th and it lasted 1 m. 4 s., is despicable. Seriously, if we have a terrorist attack, and this information leads to the government catching someone, people would probably still complain, because the government will still be able to see that i called my friend last week. The government doesnt give a shit about an 18 year old from shitsville, ?? and who they're calling on a regular basis unless that person is doing something that merits being investigated. deal with it.
Please for the love of God take a government class, a history class, or a civics class. Please. Shit like this makes my head hurt because it makes me think everyone watches Fox News and thinks that pre 9/11 we didn't have any way to save ourselves. Do you really think we can't use the laws we already have in place to make ourselves safer. It's called getting a warrent for the suspect, and then evesdroping or getting the records. THAT'S WHAT THE LAW SAYS WE HAVE TO DO. Not just making a broad sweep and taking 10s of MILLIONS of phone call records for the fun of it. Hoover would love you.

Where do you draw the line? Do you think the Government should be able to do ANYTHING they want to keep you safe? Is that what you're willing to do? Allow whatever means necessary for your safety? How do you then know what they're doing is actually to keep you safe and not being used for some other means? History has taught us nothing.

[cal1082]

Some of you are ridiculous, internet search engines keep track of where you go but I dont see you bitching. Websites pass your email and telephone number around to others all the time but I dont hear you bitching.

What's the difference? In all cases records are being kept.

[Jason Tate]

Some of you are ridiculous, internet search engines keep track of where you go but I dont see you bitching. Websites pass your email and telephone number around to others all the time but I dont hear you bitching.

What's the difference? In all cases records are being kept.
Coming from a webmaster - we don't pass your email or telephone number around to anyone at all. I don't know what you're talking about. When you show up at a website it doens't say "This is Cal1082 and his email is: penis@bush.com and his phone number is: 555-1234." It doesn't work that way. You choose who gets your information, and can fake it all you want. Plus you can browse the internet completly secure and anonymous if you want. Hide behind a few proxies, mask some IP addresses, bounce off your neighbor's wi-fi, all that jazz. That option's completely open to you. Apples / Oranges.

The other, tiny difference is - well ... for the government to get those records, there has to be this little thing called probable cause (which means a nice little warrent, or subpoena, or that someone's actually making sure there's a reason your records are being looked at). They're not just handed over because someone asked nice and handed the ISP a candy-cane.

[cal1082]

Oh and let me point out the obvious that if this were a right to privacy issue the phone companies would not be able to have these records to pass to the government.

[Jason Tate]

Oh and let me point out the obvious that if this were a right to privacy issue the phone companies would not be able to have these records to pass to the government.
Usually I think your posts have merit. And most days I enjoy engaging in conversation with you - today, well - you're sort of out of your mind dumb. Unless I read your post wrong ... you may want to do some Google searching, or maybe use a little bit of common sense.

[cal1082]

Coming from a webmaster - we don't pass your email or telephone number around to anyone at all. I don't know what you're talking about. When you show up at a website it doens't say "This is Cal1082 and his email is: penis@bush.com and his phone number is: 555-1234." It doesn't work that way. You choose who gets your information, and can fake it all you want. Plus you can browse the internet completly secure and anonymous if you want. Hide behind a few proxies, mask some IP addresses, bounce off your neighbor's wi-fi, all that jazz. That option's completely open to you. Apples / Oranges.

The other, tiny difference is - well ... for the government to get those records, there has to be this little thing called probable cause (which means a nice little warrent, or subpoena, or that someone's actually making sure there's a reason your records are being looked at). They're not just handed over because someone asked nice and handed the ISP a candy-cane.

I'm not a Patriot Act expert but I believe it gives them this authority.

[histrionics22]

Learning our lesson to me means we fix the underlying problem, not just the symptoms. And learning or lesson has absolutely nothing to do with spying on American citizens. Furthermore, if America needs to change - we should change the way our Constitution says we should change. That means amending it! That means voting! That means checks and balances! That doesn't mean we give the President unbridled access to do whatever "he thinks is best." I'm fine with change when it's in tune with the foundation of this country - the very foundation that's kept us around longer then most other civilizations/governments. I refuse to look Iraq in the eye and say, "we're giving you freedom" - when we are curbing these very freedoms at home.

Yes. There is a problem with that. A big problem. According to various reports we know that the terrorists are using disposable and untraceable cell phones. Therefore what do the phone records serve a purpose for? And if the government has suspects why can't they get a court order to tap those suspects phones? Or get a warrant to seize their phone records? Taking 10's of millions of phone records is not even close to what you're describing. And I think you know it.

There is no possible way to live in complete freedom and safety at the same time. For as much the Democrats and Republicans have become interchangeable, they have become even less willing to cooperate to resolve many problems. Unfortunately, due to the process of our government, going about things in Congress and convincing Democrats its the right thing to do has becoming increasingly impossible. In order to get anything done in a quick and efficient manner, the President has been forced to take a lot of questionable measures.

I still don't necessairly see the problem with taking 10's of millions phone records. Do you expect the phone companies to do the backround checks and research on these calls? Would you prefer there was no check of the calls?

[cal1082]

Usually I think your posts have merit. And most days I enjoy engaging in conversation with you - today, well - you're sort of out of your mind dumb. Unless I read your post wrong ... you may want to do some Google searching, or maybe use a little bit of common sense.

How am I wrong? If you think it's a right to privacy case than the phone comapanies would fall under the same constitution as the US government would. Am I right?

Seems your argument is with the phone companies actually handing these records over and that's where the Patriot Act comes in. Now you can hate the Patriot Act all you won't but don't throw out the word illegal.

[Jason Tate]

There is no possible way to live in complete freedom and safety at the same time. For as much the Democrats and Republicans have become interchangeable, they have become even less willing to cooperate to resolve many problems. Unfortunately, due to the process of our government, going about things in Congress and convincing Democrats its the right thing to do has becoming increasingly impossible. In order to get anything done in a quick and efficient manner, the President has been forced to take a lot of questionable measures.

I still don't necessairly see the problem with taking 10's of millions phone records. Do you expect the phone companies to do the backround checks and research on these calls? Would you prefer there was no check of the calls?
I shutter in utter disbelief at your first paragraph. Blame the Democrats! Yeah! That's the problem! We've never had filibusters before! We've never had disagreements! Maybe, just MAYBE, the reason they haven't been able to convince the "democrats" that this is the "right thing to do" is because IT ISN'T THE RIGHT THING TO DO. You see, that's the beauty of our government, things aren't just rudimintarly decided for us. People vote on them. There has to be a consensus. AMAZING thought isn't it? Keeps that whole dictatorship thing in check.

No, what I expect is my government to get a fucking warrent (follow the laws) and seize the suspect's records - NOT MINE. I thought I made that clear.

[Teoa_Fes]

So canada is russia now?? Listen think about it... its not canadas fault but if you were going to envade america wouldnt you go after canada first. You have a hell of a lot less people and your army is hell of a lot smaller then the u.s is. I'd go for canada.. Its not your fault your army is not big and its not your fault canada is less populated then the u.s its just fact.
First off get your english straight...it is THAN. Second, what Im saying is, we have a huge area towards the northern canada where temperatures in the winter vary from - 50 to -25 degrees celsius...they are habitated towns, not by many, but in times of war most canadians could, without a problem, trench in there... now do you really believe most people coming from other countries could take that cold? i dont believe so. Thats what happened to Hittler in Russia, but now if youre not smart enough to link facts, THEN (see, the right usage of the word then), you may have to go back to school and not skip history classes. Smart you.

[Jason Tate]

How am I wrong? If you think it's a right to privacy case than the phone comapanies would fall under the same constitution as the US government would. Am I right?

Seems your argument is with the phone companies actually handing these records over and that's where the Patriot Act comes in. Now you can hate the Patriot Act all you won't but don't throw out the word illegal.
My issue is two fold: the phone companies handing them over and the government asking them to hand them over. That's a double-whammy. And I'll throw out the word illegal all I want - cause I believe it is.

[domesticyeti]

Seems your argument is with the phone companies actually handing these records over and that's where the Patriot Act comes in. Now you can hate the Patriot Act all you won't but don't throw out the word illegal.

the patriot act should be illegal. it sidesteps the constitution on so many levels it isnt even funny. And the truth is, it's not going to make us any safer. You cant stop terrorism forever. There will, i guarantee, be another attack like 9/11 sometime in the future (whether soon or far, i dont know). But the Patriot Act is NOT going to make us any safer.

[histrionics22]

the patriot act should be illegal. it sidesteps the constitution on so many levels it isnt even funny. And the truth is, it's not going to make us any safer. You cant stop terrorism forever. There will, i guarantee, be another attack like 9/11 sometime in the future (whether soon or far, i dont know). But the Patriot Act is NOT going to make us any safer.

So because there is no way we can provent a future attack, we do nothing about trying to stop one? That seems a little flawed to me.

[Jason Tate]

the patriot act should be illegal. it sidesteps the constitution on so many levels it isnt even funny. And the truth is, it's not going to make us any safer. You cant stop terrorism forever. There will, i guarantee, be another attack like 9/11 sometime in the future (whether soon or far, i dont know). But the Patriot Act is NOT going to make us any safer.
Video cameras in all our homes, on all the buildings across the country, and microphones on every single citizen in the country would probably make us a whole lot safer. That's my new plan - fuck all this, let's go straight for the big one and make sure nothing bad ever happens. Oh, and no more guns for ANYONE at all - SAFE! SAFE! SAFE!

It's so easy to get some of you people to start burning your rights if you all of a sudden think you're going to be a little bit more protected. Yet if the government tries to take away guns (that kill more people then terrorists every year) or cigarettes (that kill more people then terrorists every year) - you fuckers go CRAZY. What the hell. If you really want safety we may want to look at the leading causes of death of the american citizen and start there. Should the government ban Mc Donalds because it'd make you safer? Geeeeeeeez.

[domesticyeti]

we use our laws already in place to stop one.
we dont create laws that fuck over the constitution to stop one.

[Jason Tate]

So because there is no way we can provent a future attack, we do nothing about trying to stop one? That seems a little flawed to me.
My fail-safe solution to preventing a further attack is above. I emailed my congressman earlier today ... I hope they listen!

[XxLoserDanxX]

I love all of this everyone fighting over this and that, even correcting grammar. See what almost everyone fails to understand is, no matter what, republican, democratic, jedi, or whatever, this won't stop no matter who is in office. Personally, I honestly don't care about it, it's a dumb idea and yea sucks for who ever has to go through all of that and the chance that they might find something is plausable. Why doesn't everyone get pissed when they scan your bags going to the airport? Because it's a matter of national secruity. And that is how the NSA and Congress is looking at this issue. Can anyone see the bigger picture? It's not a matter of "NO! these are my phone calls and you can't have them" it's a "hey you want to TRY and keep this country safe, let me help". Oh by the way, they aren't listening to phone calls, they are tracking the numbers call to where and for how long and if there are any patterns. Doesn't anyone watch Law and Oder?

[histrionics22]

I shutter in utter disbelief at your first paragraph. Blame the Democrats! Yeah! That's the problem! We've never had filibusters before! We've never had disagreements! Maybe, just MAYBE, the reason they haven't been able to convince the "democrats" that this is the "right thing to do" is because IT ISN'T THE RIGHT THING TO DO. You see, that's the beauty of our government, things aren't just rudimintarly decided for us. People vote on them. There has to be a consensus. AMAZING thought isn't it? Keeps that whole dictatorship thing in check.

No, what I expect is my government to get a fucking warrent (follow the laws) and seize the suspect's records - NOT MINE. I thought I made that clear.

I wasn't blaming the democrats. The point I was making is that it's harder for any specific act on this to pass through congress. Both sides are so unwilling to compromise anymore on these matters, nothing ever gets done.

[Jason Tate]

I wasn't blaming the democrats. The point I was making is that it's harder for any specific act on this to pass through congress. Both sides are so unwilling to compromise anymore on these matters, nothing ever gets done.
Well, it's not a 50% one side 50% other side in Congress, so it can't be just all one side dude.

[histrionics22]

we use our laws already in place to stop one.
we dont create laws that fuck over the constitution to stop one.

I thought it was painfully obvious after 9/11 that the laws in place didn't work.

[Jason Tate]

I thought it was painfully obvious after 9/11 that the laws in place didn't work.
So everytime there's a murder do we say the laws in place don't work? Everytime someone robs a candy shop do we say the laws in place don't work?

No. We re-tool and make them better if need be. Or we look at why they failed us (that's painfully obvious) ...

[domesticyeti]

I thought it was painfully obvious after 9/11 that the laws in place didn't work.

if we were paying better attention to our warnings then maybe we could have prevented it.
also, im not opposed to all the laws passed afterwords. i think having air marshals on planes was a good idea, as well as some other, legal changes.
but no, i dont think it's worth it to compromise our freedom to ward off another attack that will inevitably happen. That just proves that they've acheived their goal of trying to destroy our democratic system, because the breakdown of the constitution is the first step.

[imirish06]

Where is V when you need him?

[histrionics22]

if we were paying better attention to our warnings then maybe we could have prevented it.
also, im not opposed to all the laws passed afterwords. i think having air marshals on planes was a good idea, as well as some other, legal changes.
but no, i dont think it's worth it to compromise our freedom to ward off another attack that will inevitably happen. That just proves that they've acheived their goal of trying to destroy our democratic system, because the breakdown of the constitution is the first step.

I don't see how this is giving up your freedom. They are not listening to everything we say. They are just looking at who we called. Yes there is no fullproof way of preventing an attack with the way our country was set up. However, I fail to see how this is hurting you. Can you really complain if this helps prevent an attack?

[Jason Tate]

I don't see how this is giving up your freedom. They are not listening to everything we say. They are just looking at who we called. Yes there is no fullproof way of preventing an attack with the way our country was set up. However, I fail to see how this is hurting you. Can you really complain if this helps prevent an attack?
My favorite debate topic: can you complain if it helps save lives?

That's not a logical argument dude. Really. And it can't be proven. And (as I've pointed out earlier) there are other things our government could be doing to save more lives (then those killed by terrorists) if saving american lives was their real goal.

But yes - I can complain - BECAUSE IT'S AGAINST THE LAW (for starters the Communications Act of 1934).

But hey - I trust THIS GUY (who refused questions from the media today).

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20060511/160_ap_bush_060511.jpg

[Tom Da Bomb]

This wont affect any of us on a personal basis right now. But if things keep going the way they are, I fear that in 50 years, the state goverment will be 'legaly' be able to track our phone calls, and record our conversations. (this means, if your buying any drugs, or speaking about anything illegal, the goverment will know everything)

[domesticyeti]

I don't see how this is giving up your freedom. They are not listening to everything we say. They are just looking at who we called. Yes there is no fullproof way of preventing an attack with the way our country was set up. However, I fail to see how this is hurting you. Can you really complain if this helps prevent an attack?

well, actually, in the patriot act it says they can listen to your calls.
and it's absolutely ridiculous that when i buy a magazine at books-a-million, i check out fine, but when my brother buys an anti-bush book for a relative, he has to give his full name, address and phone number.

[mogwaifearsatan]

The point isn't that this is too ridiculous, although I definitely don't agree with it. It's that it's just the latest in a long line of signs that we have been seeing recently that point to a very, very disconcerting and decidedly un-American place. We aren't there yet by any stretch of the imagination, but at this pace, long is it going to take us to get there?

[buysoap]

blah blah blah jason tate rambles and stuff blah blah blah, if you really care, just search back in the forum
are you serious????

you're paying taxes to the government, and part of what that gets you is supposed to be protection. in time of war liberties are always taken in a different manner, and this doesn't infringe on anything for you! this information was allready being viewed by someone, and in the event of a real emergency, the phone company would have contacted someone. think about it: if some dude at verizon checking jason tates calls noticed many many calls to afganhistan, do you think they wouldn't have told some one allready? this is basically just the government being like "well let us take a look.

as for what you said to me specifically, you have to be joking. "why should innocents have their information shared...." ....innocents??? turning over the call reports and having someone look at them is the same as going through baggage claim at the airport. it's just a precaution. tensions are high these days, and yeah, we have a shitty government, but a LOT of countries hate us and our shitty government, and as shitty as our government is, the shitty government doesnt want to get attacked. so they look at your phone calls.

you seem awfully paranoid about this whole thing. what are you, tate, a terrorist? does your call privacy REALLY matter this much? they're not invading your home with a swat team, they're look at a list of phone calls. they're not just singling calls out, they're looking at EVERYONES calls for EVERYTHING. just deal with it. this does NOT, i repeat, DOES NOT, really affect you enough to justify this much insanity and bitching.

and as far as the whole "america isnt america anymore" thing... yeah... thats nothing new. america hasn't been america since before i was even born.

[Jason Tate]

are you serious????

you're paying taxes to the government, and part of what that gets you is supposed to be protection. in time of war liberties are always taken in a different manner, and this doesn't infringe on anything for you! this information was allready being viewed by someone, and in the event of a real emergency, the phone company would have contacted someone. think about it: if some dude at verizon checking jason tates calls noticed many many calls to afganhistan, do you think they wouldn't have told some one allready? this is basically just the government being like "well let us take a look.

as for what you said to me specifically, you have to be joking. "why should innocents have their information shared...." ....innocents??? turning over the call reports and having someone look at them is the same as going through baggage claim at the airport. it's just a precaution. tensions are high these days, and yeah, we have a shitty government, but a LOT of countries hate us and our shitty government, and as shitty as our government is, the shitty government doesnt want to get attacked. so they look at your phone calls.

you seem awfully paranoid about this whole thing. what are you, tate, a terrorist? does your call privacy REALLY matter this much? they're not invading your home with a swat team, they're look at a list of phone calls. they're not just singling calls out, they're looking at EVERYONES calls for EVERYTHING. just deal with it. this does NOT, i repeat, DOES NOT, really affect you enough to justify this much insanity and bitching.

and as far as the whole "america isnt america anymore" thing... yeah... thats nothing new. america hasn't been america since before i was even born.
Finish the famous phrase as I Godwin the thread. "First they came for ..."

Oh, and when I go to the airport, I know I'm being screened. I subject myself to it. When I'm making a private phone call - I expect the laws to protect that privacy.

[Hidenothing27]

First off get your english straight...it is THAN. Second, what Im saying is, we have a huge area towards the northern canada where temperatures in the winter vary from - 50 to -25 degrees celsius...they are habitated towns, not by many, but in times of war most canadians could, without a problem, trench in there... now do you really believe most people coming from other countries could take that cold? i dont believe so. Thats what happened to Hittler in Russia, but now if youre not smart enough to link facts, THEN (see, the right usage of the word then), you may have to go back to school and not skip history classes. Smart you.

So you have to attack to my grammer?? Desperation??!?!Sorry i dont usually proof read many of my posts. But if it helps you sleep better at night I proof read my papers, because lets be honest they count, not post number 200 something. You keep talking about ww2.. Do you really believe your army could take a big force. No one ever said they have to come that way and no one ever said it would take them a long time in the cold to overcome your troops. They are soldiers they would not be staying at the ritz.Who said they would use soldiers anyway?? They have this great things called jets and bombers they are pretty cool and involve no soldiers. People in ww2 endured much more hardships then the cold. There is no linking of facts. You in no geological shape or form represent Russia. National resources included. Russiamuch bigger and vastly uninhabited. You said skip history classes. ww2 which does not apply to this at all. Your the one who tossed Russia and Germany into the equation.

[Jason Tate]

well, actually, in the patriot act it says they can listen to your calls.
and it's absolutely ridiculous that when i buy a magazine at books-a-million, i check out fine, but when my brother buys an anti-bush book for a relative, he has to give his full name, address and phone number.
A friend of my Grandfather (old guy) was questioned by the FBI for the books he checked out of the library.

[Jason Tate]

So you have to attack to my grammer?? Desperation??!?!Sorry i dont usually proof read many of my posts. But if it helps you sleep better at night I proof read my papers, because lets be honest they count, not post number 200 something. You keep talking about ww2.. Do you really believe your army could take a big force. No one ever said they have to come that way and no one ever said it would take them a long time in the cold to overcome your troops. They are soldiers they would not be staying at the ritz.Who said they would use soldiers anyway?? They have this great things called jets and bombers they are pretty cool and involve no soldiers. People in ww2 endured much more hardships then the cold. There is no linking of facts. You in no geological shape or form represent Russia. National resources included. Russiamuch bigger and vastly uninhabited. You said skip history classes. ww2 which does not apply to this at all. Your the one who tossed Russia and Germany into the equation.
Why are you attacking Canada now? Just for the bacon? Or what?

[punkerz2003]

First off get your english straight...it is THAN. Second, what Im saying is, we have a huge area towards the northern canada where temperatures in the winter vary from - 50 to -25 degrees celsius...they are habitated towns, not by many, but in times of war most canadians could, without a problem, trench in there... now do you really believe most people coming from other countries could take that cold? i dont believe so. Thats what happened to Hittler in Russia, but now if youre not smart enough to link facts, THEN (see, the right usage of the word then), you may have to go back to school and not skip history classes. Smart you.
Haha wow you guys are actually arguing about whether Canada could be invaded. I love how stupid the arguments get on this site sometimes.

[Hidenothing27]

Why are you attacking Canada now? Just for the bacon? Or what?

I honestly do not know why... It has nothing to do with this thread... I talked about this topic with my family at the dinner. My brother and my mom said they dont care if it makes the country safer. Which i understand because I felt like that as well..One thing i have learned from your responses is that it is not the point. I said the ben franklin line and my bro ssaid thats not applicaple. I then read one of your posts with numerous quotes and facts and it shut him up... Did you love history/Gov in school? You seem to know a good amount considering your major was business.

[Teoa_Fes]

So you have to attack to my grammer?? Desperation??!?!Sorry i dont usually proof read many of my posts. But if it helps you sleep better at night I proof read my papers, because lets be honest they count, not post number 200 something. You keep talking about ww2.. Do you really believe your army could take a big force. No one ever said they have to come that way and no one ever said it would take them a long time in the cold to overcome your troops. They are soldiers they would not be staying at the ritz.Who said they would use soldiers anyway?? They have this great things called jets and bombers they are pretty cool and involve no soldiers. People in ww2 endured much more hardships then the cold. There is no linking of facts. You in no geological shape or form represent Russia. National resources included. Russiamuch bigger and vastly uninhabited. You said skip history classes. ww2 which does not apply to this at all. Your the one who tossed Russia and Germany into the equation.

wow...you REALLY need to go back to school, not only for history classes but also for ENGLISH and GEOGRAPHY classes. Im amazed at your stupidity...:blink: *bows* oh master superior of stupidity, please pitty thy son for not being as good at being STUPID.

[Hidenothing27]

wow...you REALLY need to go back to school, not only for history classes but also for ENGLISH and GEOGRAPHY classes. Im amazed at your stupidity...:blink: *bows* oh master superior of stupidity, please pitty thy son for not being as good at being STUPID.

like i said attack my english all you want. I have never scored below a B on a paper, on papers I put time into. If i'm wrong please correct me. You both are cold. You in no way have the oil they have or have one of the biggest lumber resources in the world.

[Teoa_Fes]

Why are you attacking Canada now? Just for the bacon? Or what?
Hes OBVIOUSLY after our bacon! =(

[Teoa_Fes]

like i said attack my english all you want. I have never scored below a B on a paper, on papers I put time into. If i'm wrong please correct me. You both are cold. You in no way have the oil they have or have one of the biggest lumber resources in the world.
i quit with you. youre too smart for me. sorry...take all the bacon you want. leave the maple leaf syrup if you can please.

[Hidenothing27]

hopefully this will help you.. These are lists for both.

Russia-wide natural resource base including major deposits of oil, natural gas, coal, and many strategic minerals, timber
note: formidable obstacles of climate, terrain, and distance hinder exploitation of natural resources

Canada-iron ore, nickel, zinc, copper, gold, lead, molybdenum, potash, diamonds, silver, fish, timber, wildlife, coal, petroleum, natural gas, hydropower

They even noted how bad the terrain is in russia shame they do not do the same thing about canada

I'm done debating canada in a forum that has nothing to do with canada. Canada would not be hard to conquer thats all i'm saying. you can sit in the trenches all you want.

[Teoa_Fes]

hopefully this will help you.. These are lists for both.

Russia-wide natural resource base including major deposits of oil, natural gas, coal, and many strategic minerals, timber
note: formidable obstacles of climate, terrain, and distance hinder exploitation of natural resources

Canada-iron ore, nickel, zinc, copper, gold, lead, molybdenum, potash, diamonds, silver, fish, timber, wildlife, coal, petroleum, natural gas, hydropower

They even noted how bad the terrain is in russia shame they do not do the same thing about canada

I'm done debating canada in a forum that has nothing to do with canada. Canada would not be hard to conquer thats all i'm saying. you can sit in the trenches all you want.

oh man...there we go again. HOORAY.............hooray.

[histrionics22]

My favorite debate topic: can you complain if it helps save lives?

That's not a logical argument dude. Really. And it can't be proven. And (as I've pointed out earlier) there are other things our government could be doing to save more lives (then those killed by terrorists) if saving american lives was their real goal.

But yes - I can complain - BECAUSE IT'S AGAINST THE LAW (for starters the Communications Act of 1934).

But hey - I trust THIS GUY (who refused questions from the media today).

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20060511/160_ap_bush_060511.jpg

We cant protect ourselves from terorists. We can protect ourselves from smoking and such. Unrelated. I can't wait until another President is taking similar actions which you can complain about.

[DE's Finest]

Digital Fortress

[Ambulance X]

I don't know about you clowns, but I have nothing to hide. I applaud this.

[Hidenothing27]

oh man...there we go again. HOORAY.............hooray.

in all seriousness man, not joking around.. your band is not bad!! You guys seem pretty tight, its not my favorite but you guys play well. the structure is well planned!

[Hidenothing27]

minus has some sick guitar parts!

[livelovecrydie]

does that mean that the NSA is gonna hear all of those terrorism plans that my friends and i made on our cell phones??????






for legality purposes, i'm going to state that i am joking. [see sig]

[Jason Tate]

We cant protect ourselves from terorists. We can protect ourselves from smoking and such. Unrelated. I can't wait until another President is taking similar actions which you can complain about.
Not unrelated at all - the government can take steps to make you safer, and they don't. What's the difference? They can protect you. They can protect american citizens from dying (far more then ever die in terrorist attacks), yet they don't? Why? Smoking is an everyday thing for some people and so is flying in an airplane. Both are choices made by the individual. Yes? Neither is vital to living. So, if the government is trying to make us safer on airplanes, they should try and make us safer by banning cigarettes as well. Just because they say they're trying to make you safe with their little moves - doesn't mean a whole lot to me when they ignore the real killers of america (guns, obesity, smoking, and walking outside and getting hit by a car). All you people claiming you "want to feel safe," have a more likely chance of being shot by the kid behind you in line at the cafeteria then you do a terrorist attack. I can't believe you buy into this "I'm now so safe" act.

I can't wait for the day when you realize you should complain about your President.

[Jason Tate]

Digital Fortress
Carnivore exists.

[Jason Tate]

I don't know about you clowns, but I have nothing to hide. I applaud this.
I have nothing to hide either, doesn't make it right, or legal.

I don't have anything to hide if they want to come search my house either - doesn't mean they should or does it give them the right.

I don't have anything to hide from a full cavity search - doesn't mean I am going to expose my prostate.

Unless you're willing to live behind glass walls, I think you should be appalled.

[domesticyeti]

I have nothing to hide either, doesn't make it right, or legal.

I don't have anything to hide if they want to come search my house either - doesn't mean they should or does it give them the right.

I don't have anything to hide from a full cavity search - doesn't mean I am going to expose my prostate.

Unless you're willing to live behind glass walls, I think you should be appalled.

exactly.

[birdman]

ALRIGHT! THATS IT!!

When 9/11 happened the first concern on everyones mind was "why didnt the Bush administration know anything about this, why didnt they stop it from happening?" Well how do you think intelligence is gathered, by listening to phone chatter and exchanged messages? So for all we know the provisions of the Patriot Act have stopped many terrorist attacks by expanding the policy in which the people that gather intel can follow and get more info. I could be wrong though.

And Jason, the reason I (personally) dont take you very seriously is because you are such a condescending prick when you are making your point that I just stop paying attention. So allow me to be a condescending prick too. Just because you discovered punkvoter.com 3 years ago and listen to every musician that opens their uneducated mouths about a world they dont understand (ill explain this later on), doesnt make you any sort of expert on anything. Following a post about the newest New Found Glory wannabees' new album coming out with a post about domestic and foreign policies does not give you a lot of credibiliy. Maybe you should have a whole different website for politics, www.absoluteithinkeverythingthatpeo plewhoaresignedtofatwreckchordstell metothink.net

[littlejohn]

I have nothing to hide either, doesn't make it right, or legal.

I don't have anything to hide if they want to come search my house either - doesn't mean they should or does it give them the right.

I don't have anything to hide from a full cavity search - doesn't mean I am going to expose my prostate.

Unless you're willing to live behind glass walls, I think you should be appalled.

it appears that too many people are ignorant on this subject.

you should keep this post on the front page, i like to see how stupid people really are when they open their mouths.

[littlejohn]

ALRIGHT! THATS IT!!

When 9/11 happened the first concern on everyones mind was "why didnt the Bush administration know anything about this, why didnt they stop it from happening?" Well how do you think intelligence is gathered, by listening to phone chatter and exchanged messages? So for all we know the provisions of the Patriot Act have stopped many terrorist attacks by expanding the policy in which the people that gather intel can follow and get more info. I could be wrong though.

And Jason, the reason I (personally) dont take you very seriously is because you are such a condescending prick when you are making your point that I just stop paying attention. So allow me to be a condescending prick too. Just because you discovered punkvoter.com 3 years ago and listen to every musician that opens their uneducated mouths about a world they dont understand (ill explain this later on), doesnt make you any sort of expert on anything. Following a post about the newest New Found Glory wannabees' new album coming out with a post about domestic and foreign policies does not give you a lot of credibiliy. Maybe you should have a whole different website for politics, www.absoluteithinkeverythingthatpeo plewhoaresignedtofatwreckchordstell metothink.net (http://www.absoluteithinkeverythingthatpeo plewhoaresignedtofatwreckchordstell metothink.net)

they had "intelligence" before the attacks the government decided to ignore these threats and other intel. what makes you think that now they would actually use the intel they had to benefit us. i agree with tate, that quote from Ben Franklin says it all.

didnt bush say at the first press conference after 9/11 that "whoever did this attacked freedom" freedom has many different meanings in this world but to me and im sure alot of other people it means keeping our private lives private. I have nothing to hide either, but that doesnt mean that i give up all of my privacy and other rights to POSSIBLY protect us from another "terrorist attack".

[Jason Tate]

ALRIGHT! THATS IT!!

When 9/11 happened the first concern on everyones mind was "why didnt the Bush administration know anything about this, why didnt they stop it from happening?" Well how do you think intelligence is gathered, by listening to phone chatter and exchanged messages? So for all we know the provisions of the Patriot Act have stopped many terrorist attacks by expanding the policy in which the people that gather intel can follow and get more info. I could be wrong though.

And Jason, the reason I (personally) dont take you very seriously is because you are such a condescending prick when you are making your point that I just stop paying attention. So allow me to be a condescending prick too. Just because you discovered punkvoter.com 3 years ago and listen to every musician that opens their uneducated mouths about a world they dont understand (ill explain this later on), doesnt make you any sort of expert on anything. Following a post about the newest New Found Glory wannabees' new album coming out with a post about domestic and foreign policies does not give you a lot of credibiliy. Maybe you should have a whole different website for politics, www.absoluteithinkeverythingthatpeo plewhoaresignedtofatwreckchordstell metothink.net (http://www.absoluteithinkeverythingthatpeo plewhoaresignedtofatwreckchordstell metothink.net)

ALRIGHT! THATS IT!!

When 9/11 happened the first concern on everyones mind was "why didnt the Bush administration know anything about this, why didnt they stop it from happening?" Well how do you think intelligence is gathered, by listening to phone chatter and exchanged messages? So for all we know the provisions of the Patriot Act have stopped many terrorist attacks by expanding the policy in which the people that gather intel can follow and get more info. I could be wrong though.

And Jason, the reason I (personally) dont take you very seriously is because you are such a condescending prick when you are making your point that I just stop paying attention. So allow me to be a condescending prick too. Just because you discovered punkvoter.com 3 years ago and listen to every musician that opens their uneducated mouths about a world they dont understand (ill explain this later on), doesnt make you any sort of expert on anything. Following a post about the newest New Found Glory wannabees' new album coming out with a post about domestic and foreign policies does not give you a lot of credibiliy. Maybe you should have a whole different website for politics, www.absoluteithinkeverythingthatpeo plewhoaresignedtofatwreckchordstell metothink.net (http://www.absoluteithinkeverythingthatpeo plewhoaresignedtofatwreckchordstell metothink.net)

I like to dabble in the real world, and with facts. I like seeing real data. I don't think that because I drank OJ this morning I'm going to have sex tonight - so I don't make similar leaps in logic for my government either. Just because something (Y) hasn't happend while something (X) is in effect, doesn't mean that X is the preventative measure of Y. And I agree with gathering intel, I'm in no way saying that's bad - I'm saying that we should follow the laws and constitution when we're doing it (especially if we're doing it to collect data on american citizens). I don't think that's too much to ask. I get punished for breaking laws, I kinda figured my government would as well.

I got into politics before I could vote because I read Howard Zinn's "The People's History of the United States" actually. I think punkvoter.com is retarded for the most part and don't agree with most of the things talked about there. I see it as the anti-O'Riley (just used to stir up a quick emotional reaction instead of educating in any way). But hey, make snap judgements when you have absolutely no idea about the truth.

I'm not looking for credibility, I'm not looking for anything at all - I'm just explaining my thoughts because this is a forum and gives me somewhere to bitch and moan (and if I'm lucky a few people will read it and say, "hey, I think he could be right" and then go look into the stuff for themseves). However, if you don't listen or want to listen because of my musical tastes - then I'm sorry, I think you're an idiot.

[birdman]

Jason, I just want to say that your response to my banter was by far the most eloquent of all of your banter, it was forward and avoided personal attacks (aside for your obvious sarcasm). That is the kind of arguement that I actually listen to.

Personally, I think that when you are radical, you get absolutely nothing done. I am an anti radical in the strongest sense (an anti-radical radical if you will). I look at people like Fat Mike, Howard Zinn, Micheal Moore and even people like Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter, are all completely out of their minds. I hate it that these people are the people that everyone is listening to. They create so much hysteria and chaos over nothing and it is fucking with the minds of the average person. Its these radicals that are ruining America.

[Crazysimon]

Originally Posted by Jason Tate

This mentality makes me sad and makes me fear what this country will look like in 100 years. Police states are incredibly "safe" environments where nothing bad can happen and everything you do is controlled. I'd imagine they're not much fun to live in though.

The U.S. is not a police state. I still fail to see how this effects you? The only people it shouold be bothering is people who have something to hide. If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear. Its outrageous that people complain that this is holding down our freedom. The fact of the matter is, they havent stopped you from making calls. You still carry on with your life, and this doesn't change that. We in the U.S. have so much freedom. We have the freedom to say what we feel, like we do in these very forums. What makes me fear what this country will look in 100 years is the astounding hatred that radicals have for this country. You seem to overlook the fact that if they had the chance to, they would kill you. They would kill everyone of us. If you are worried about the government listening to your phone calls (which they wont listen to, because you are not a threat) then that should just be an example of how good you have it. There are places where you cant openely disagree with the government. It just shocks me how people can live, and work in this country and then bash it when given the chance. I'm sorry but i live with the government trying to find terrorists, if that means i can live the life I do now, in a country that I feel gives me the best oppurtunity for success.

[bbelair]

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither, and lose both."
- Benjamin Franklin -

that was a VERY nice find, i am impressed.

[Jason Tate]

The U.S. is not a police state. I still fail to see how this effects you? The only people it shouold be bothering is people who have something to hide. If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear. Its outrageous that people complain that this is holding down our freedom. The fact of the matter is, they havent stopped you from making calls. You still carry on with your life, and this doesn't change that. We in the U.S. have so much freedom. We have the freedom to say what we feel, like we do in these very forums. What makes me fear what this country will look in 100 years is the astounding hatred that radicals have for this country. You seem to overlook the fact that if they had the chance to, they would kill you. They would kill everyone of us. If you are worried about the government listening to your phone calls (which they wont listen to, because you are not a threat) then that should just be an example of how good you have it. There are places where you cant openely disagree with the government. It just shocks me how people can live, and work in this country and then bash it when given the chance. I'm sorry but i live with the government trying to find terrorists, if that means i can live the life I do now, in a country that I feel gives me the best oppurtunity for success.
You haven't read a single thing I've typed. I've already responded to all of this and yet you repeat it.

[cal1082]

we have to have something that allows the government to better fight terrorism. that was the whole point in the big study that was done and the recommendations that came out. High ups in the FBI or CIA have said the provisions in the patriot act have aided them in fighting terrorism (if you want i can find articles).

Now you can argue with them if you like, and you can agree that something must be done but the Patriot Act is not the answer, but legality is not a question considering the Patriot Act is legal.

[robsmith]

well since we are all 'punk kids' here i guess we're all going to flip shit about stuff we have no idea about haha

the people on this website are suprisingly conservative. it confuses me. if anything i would think a "punk" website would be more liberal. meh, let your government fuck you in the ass, not my problem.
your government is there to serve you, not control you. i'm so free that i don't even capitalise when i write, take that society.

[birdman]

The U.S. is not a police state. I still fail to see how this effects you? The only people it shouold be bothering is people who have something to hide. If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear. Its outrageous that people complain that this is holding down our freedom. The fact of the matter is, they havent stopped you from making calls. You still carry on with your life, and this doesn't change that. We in the U.S. have so much freedom. We have the freedom to say what we feel, like we do in these very forums. What makes me fear what this country will look in 100 years is the astounding hatred that radicals have for this country. You seem to overlook the fact that if they had the chance to, they would kill you. They would kill everyone of us. If you are worried about the government listening to your phone calls (which they wont listen to, because you are not a threat) then that should just be an example of how good you have it. There are places where you cant openely disagree with the government. It just shocks me how people can live, and work in this country and then bash it when given the chance. I'm sorry but i live with the government trying to find terrorists, if that means i can live the life I do now, in a country that I feel gives me the best oppurtunity for success.

I totally agree.

[robsmith]

The U.S. is not a police state. I still fail to see how this effects you? The only people it shouold be bothering is people who have something to hide. If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear. Its outrageous that people complain that this is holding down our freedom. The fact of the matter is, they havent stopped you from making calls. You still carry on with your life, and this doesn't change that. We in the U.S. have so much freedom. We have the freedom to say what we feel, like we do in these very forums. What makes me fear what this country will look in 100 years is the astounding hatred that radicals have for this country. You seem to overlook the fact that if they had the chance to, they would kill you. They would kill everyone of us. If you are worried about the government listening to your phone calls (which they wont listen to, because you are not a threat) then that should just be an example of how good you have it. There are places where you cant openely disagree with the government. It just shocks me how people can live, and work in this country and then bash it when given the chance. I'm sorry but i live with the government trying to find terrorists, if that means i can live the life I do now, in a country that I feel gives me the best oppurtunity for success.

it's not bashing it, why do americans these days feel that if they question their government that they're against the country? You're government can spy on you by listening to your phone calls and you don't see a problem with that? You don't see how it could so easily be abused? What if the US government had this power during the Mccarthy days?

The US is more free than a lot of the world, why not try to keep it that way?

[Jason Tate]

we have to have something that allows the government to better fight terrorism. that was the whole point in the big study that was done and the recommendations that came out. High ups in the FBI or CIA have said the provisions in the patriot act have aided them in fighting terrorism (if you want i can find articles).

Now you can argue with them if you like, and you can agree that something must be done but the Patriot Act is not the answer, but legality is not a question considering the Patriot Act is legal.
Communications Act of 1934, and I think I remember there being something in that thing we call the Constitution. Did the Patriot act amend the Constitution?

And the future (or wannabe) head of the CIA was the douche that was heading the NSA that did all these things .. that doesn't make us safe, that makes us scared.

We have something that allows the government to better fight crime - yet it's not put in place. Explain to me why all the money and resources are going against something that is statistically less likly to kill you then walking down the a street at night in Detroit. If I have to give up ANY freedoms - ANY AT ALL - I want that to take place against something that has a damn good chance of killing me; and I'm sorry - this shit is happening just because everyone else has terrorism on the brain and is scared out of their minds over it.

[1000shadesofred]

who cares, if you didnt do anything you have nothing to hide... and if the gov't is that stupid and moronic that they want to waste their time searching through billions upon billions of hours of dialogue... fuckin let them, they are idiots anyway for passing the patriot act in the first place

[buysoap]

Not unrelated at all - the government can take steps to make you safer, and they don't. What's the difference? They can protect you. They can protect american citizens from dying (far more then ever die in terrorist attacks), yet they don't? Why? Smoking is an everyday thing for some people and so is flying in an airplane. Both are choices made by the individual. Yes? Neither is vital to living. So, if the government is trying to make us safer on airplanes, they should try and make us safer by banning cigarettes as well. Just because they say they're trying to make you safe with their little moves - doesn't mean a whole lot to me when they ignore the real killers of america (guns, obesity, smoking, and walking outside and getting hit by a car). All you people claiming you "want to feel safe," have a more likely chance of being shot by the kid behind you in line at the cafeteria then you do a terrorist attack. I can't believe you buy into this "I'm now so safe" act.

I can't wait for the day when you realize you should complain about your President.

the real killers of america - guns, obesity, smoking, getting hit by a car.

you realize how rediculous you sound? you are comparing terrorism to smoking. number one, if someone wants to smoke, thats none of your business. you have just as much right to move, and places have allready been designed for the non smokers to seperate them from the smokers (segregation?). number two, you should be happy because they're trying to pass laws that make it illegal to smoke in places like bars. for christs sake. i am not a smoker, i'll enjoy a clove or something on a long car ride with a friend or whatever, nothing hardcore, but if someone wants to smoke fucking let them. everywhere i go, signs that say "no smoking" exist, and thats not fair. you want to talk about equal rights...

guns? guns dont kill people. people kill people. they created a system to weed out the idiots from getting guns... didn't work, so tell them to try again, not get rid of guns.

obesity and getting hit by a car? i'm not going to touch those. its just so rediculous! look at what you are arguing about! They dont HEAR your phone call. they see that you MADE it. most likely, you will NOT hear about it EVER AGAIN after today.

as for other things- come on, someone buys a book entitled how to build a bomb, do you think they're going to go by unnoticed? i buy books by al franken and abby hoffman and get weird looks, but i dont care. i get the book, and no matter what they ask, its not a hastle for me. so they want some information. let them monitor me. i know i'm not going to do anything wrong, and as far as everything else goes, if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't be so concerned with your privacy. what do you really have to hide from the government with your phone calls? they can be private all you want because they cant HEAR them. they're not going to listen in on a call i make and be like, "oh my god, matt got his girlfriend pregnant, and now shes getting an abortion, and they're only in college!" (this didnt actually happen, shes not pregnant) they're going to just look and see a number.

god. get over youself with this "you'll see you should protest the president." we can protest all we want and complain and complain on forums all day. the government, and bush for that matter, is not going to care. if they want to do something they'll do it. but this phone call thing really is not a big deal. go out and see a movie. i just saw american dreamz and thank you for smoking, i'd recommend it.

at any rate, leave bush alone. he's a puppet, and all puppets do is dance. if you don't like the dance he does, talk to the puppeteer. his name is cheney. the country my parents fled communist and anti-semitic russia to has been dead long before those two showed up.

[apex]

I'm finally seeing how our gov't needs to get their shit together...I just discovered the Loose Change Second Edition documentary today on video google...and that is hard hitting...our gov't=complete and utter bullshit

please don't take loose change as straight fact.

do a little reasearch.

this coming from someone who can be considered an american hating socialist if you ask the right person! that said, loose change at the very least can get people thinking about the government as opposed to apathy.

of course, people can accept that without question and we'll be no better off.

[Jason Tate]

the real killers of america - guns, obesity, smoking, getting hit by a car.

Statistically. Yes. That's simple fact bucko. You are more likely to die by EVERY one of those then a terrorist attack. Yet people are SCARED so much they want to give up their freedoms by this miniscule possibility.

you realize how rediculous you sound? you are comparing terrorism to smoking. number one, if someone wants to smoke, thats none of your business. you have just as much right to move, and places have allready been designed for the non smokers to seperate them from the smokers (segregation?). number two, you should be happy because they're trying to pass laws that make it illegal to smoke in places like bars. for christs sake. i am not a smoker, i'll enjoy a clove or something on a long car ride with a friend or whatever, nothing hardcore, but if someone wants to smoke fucking let them. everywhere i go, signs that say "no smoking" exist, and thats not fair. you want to talk about equal rights...

I may sound RIDICULOUS to you, but you're the one not getting this. Look at what you're fucking saying here. I'll change your exact words and show you how stupid you are. If someone wants to talk on the phone that's none of your business. Yet the simple act of talking on the phone doesn't kill anyone - smoking does. Your whole argument is that the government should keep you safe is it not? Yet you say that people can make the PERSONAL CHOICE to put themselves at the risk of dying via smoking, correct? So you don't allow people to make the personal choice to get on a plane, or go to the mall, or get into a tall building - I know the risk (however small it is) that I may get killed by a terrorist. But the math is with me, and I'm not willing to give up my freedom to smoke OR my freedom to talk on the phone to be "safer" because I enjoy these freedoms.

guns? guns dont kill people. people kill people. they created a system to weed out the idiots from getting guns... didn't work, so tell them to try again, not get rid of guns.

What? You are you talking about? are you missing the point all together. I think so.

obesity and getting hit by a car? i'm not going to touch those. its just so rediculous! look at what you are arguing about! They dont HEAR your phone call. they see that you MADE it. most likely, you will NOT hear about it EVER AGAIN after today.

Okay, let's explain this ONE more time for you. I am saying that if the government wants to make the American people safer that the terrorism mortality rate is RIDICULOUSLY low compared to a large variety of other things. The American public are not scared into wanting their governments protection against REAL EVERYDAY KILLERS yet they toss their hands up and give up their rights the moment the word "terrorist" is used. Did you get it this time? It's not a hard concept to grasp.

as for other things- come on, someone buys a book entitled how to build a bomb, do you think they're going to go by unnoticed? i buy books by al franken and abby hoffman and get weird looks, but i dont care. i get the book, and no matter what they ask, its not a hastle for me. so they want some information. let them monitor me. i know i'm not going to do anything wrong, and as far as everything else goes, if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't be so concerned with your privacy. what do you really have to hide from the government with your phone calls? they can be private all you want because they cant HEAR them. they're not going to listen in on a call i make and be like, "oh my god, matt got his girlfriend pregnant, and now shes getting an abortion, and they're only in college!" (this didnt actually happen, shes not pregnant) they're going to just look and see a number.

I've read Mein Keimpf, does that make me a Nazi? I read Huck Finn, does that make me a racist? I read the Wealth of Nations, does that make me a communist? Are you that stupid? If you have nothing to hide YOU SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT YOUR PRIVACY. How far is too far? Where do you draw the line? Monitoring your reading and phone convos, what's next? Your TV shows? Your movie habits? What you eat (I mean, we should monitor all those curry eaters that avoid ham)? Should we have movie cameras EVERYWHERE --- you have NOTHING to hide, so why not? Should you be forced to give a stool sample every day before you go to work or school? You have nothing to hide, so why not? Should you be forced to allow people to walk into your house and look around whenever they feel the need (and of course, no one ever plants evidence or anything), you have NOTHING to hide, so why not? WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE? How many times do you let the government go unchecked? How far do you let them go before you're FINALLY pissed off - but by that time, they know they can get away with it and you have no one left to stand up for you!!!

god. get over youself with this "you'll see you should protest the president." we can protest all we want and complain and complain on forums all day. the government, and bush for that matter, is not going to care. if they want to do something they'll do it. but this phone call thing really is not a big deal. go out and see a movie. i just saw american dreamz and thank you for smoking, i'd recommend it.

at any rate, leave bush alone. he's a puppet, and all puppets do is dance. if you don't like the dance he does, talk to the puppeteer. his name is cheney. the country my parents fled communist and anti-semitic russia to has been dead long before those two showed up.

If your answer is to just give up - then I'm sorry, that's just not who I am and just not something I am willing to do.

[extrajunkmail]

I have nothing to hide. Do you? This is like someone having a record of where you go on your MetroCard big deal. It is possibe to give up your US citizenship and take off for the cry babies. It does not effect my day to day life and until i see me or my amigos disapearing I really don't mind, have at them. I feel sorry for whoever has to sort through them not the people who's records they have.

[extrajunkmail]

Jason Tate should be a Mason.

[eastcoast-fu]

i really don't care if the govt is looking at my phone records. am i supposed to be embarassed by phone calls from my mom?

what the fuck do you people have to hide?

[updownleftright]

Jason Tate should be a Mason.
no kidding.

too bad there isnt a way to do away with these huge 8 page replies list so jason/people wouldnt have to keep repeating themselves/their points.

and yeah i already know i myself am one of them knowing that this subject has probably already been brought up before.

[mm30]

our country is going downhill fucking fast....I hope condoleeza rices phone call is on there.

[Crazysimon]

Originally Posted by Jason Tate
Not unrelated at all - the government can take steps to make you safer, and they don't. What's the difference? They can protect you. They can protect american citizens from dying (far more then ever die in terrorist attacks), yet they don't? Why? Smoking is an everyday thing for some people and so is flying in an airplane. Both are choices made by the individual. Yes? Neither is vital to living. So, if the government is trying to make us safer on airplanes, they should try and make us safer by banning cigarettes as well. Just because they say they're trying to make you safe with their little moves - doesn't mean a whole lot to me when they ignore the real killers of america (guns, obesity, smoking, and walking outside and getting hit by a car). All you people claiming you "want to feel safe," have a more likely chance of being shot by the kid behind you in line at the cafeteria then you do a terrorist attack. I can't believe you buy into this "I'm now so safe" act.

I can't wait for the day when you realize you should complain about your President.


They are not stopping the use of airplanes so why is it neccasary to stop the production of cigarettes. We know now that there is a chance of something happening on a plane, and everyone knows that cigarettes kill. We are warned about both. It's not as if people are warned about terrorists on planes, and not about cigarettes (look on the side of the box). Maybe they shouold put a warning on the side of planes if they do it for cigarettes, "May be hijacked and flown into building". And by the way suggesting that there is more of a chance of me being shot by the kid behind me at lunch doesn't make sense. There have been 205 deaths at schools in total (thats not just shootings) since 1999. If you want to go earlier than that there has been 467 since 1992. Approximately 3,000 people died in the attacks on september 11th, in the pentagon, and the WTC. You do the math. I cant believe you buy into this "terrorism is not a threat" act.

[histrionics22]

I have a police scanner. I listen to people's calls in my neighborhood. Everyone be afraid.

[ironcurtains]

jason, youre still a moron.
this info was released sept. '05.

this is almost as bad as a few weeks ago when you said you'd "start the hype" or whatever for underoath.

[BrandNizzle182]

If this helps track down terrorist who are wanting to hurt innocent americans then im down for it but abusing the system is always hard to stop so hopefully it will be reviewed and thosed who used it for their own good and not the security of this nation should be punished. there not just randomly listening to your grandma tell her daughter about her apple pie recipe there looking for people with suspicious phone call records to those who are suspected terrorist.

lol. this is prob w's personal AP account. "these colors dont run".

[rednose]

lol. this is prob w's personal AP account. "these colors dont run".
hahaha indeed. why doesn't the turd who posted that make a post about immigrants taking his job while hes at it. on a different note, i hope they wiretap my phone on a saturday night and hear my pranks. those mofos would be entertained