View Full Version : Affirmative Action
GuitarR0cker1
10/15/09, 06:12 PM
This is an interesting issue. Let's discuss it.
nebraska's affirmative action program was repealed in the 2008 election.
Baby for Pree
10/15/09, 06:15 PM
Before we get started, let's have a nostalgia session. Anyone remember any ridiculous Ben quotes on Affirmative Action?
saysmydoctor
10/15/09, 06:19 PM
I don't like its necessity.
Machu505
10/15/09, 06:41 PM
It should be based primarily on economic status rather than race.
Theseventhson
10/15/09, 07:01 PM
It should be based primarily on economic status rather than race.
This'd
Sventhegreat
10/15/09, 07:05 PM
I think it's reverse racism to be honest. And it lowers the standards of accountability for students/employees.
xshady121
10/15/09, 07:17 PM
It should be based primarily on economic status rather than race.
This.
I don't think many people understand that it isn't just african americans that have limited access to mobility up the economic ladder. Concentrated poverty effects all races.
A kid I grew up with would always refer to it as "affirmative blacktion" :rolleyes:
QuikTrig
10/15/09, 07:18 PM
This.
I don't think many people understand that it isn't just african americans that have limited access to mobility up the economic ladder. Concentrated poverty effects both races.
*all races
xshady121
10/15/09, 07:21 PM
*all races
Stupid mistake. Fixed. Thanks.
ericsrad
10/15/09, 07:30 PM
Affirmative Action is a superficial fix, it does not solve the root of the problem, which is education, employment, and the economy. It should be based on economic status rather than race.
sleepyseanzzz
10/15/09, 07:55 PM
I think it's reverse racism to be honest. And it lowers the standards of accountability for students/employees.
agreed, employers pick race over quality to be able to say they are diverse to look good to people looking to use their services
saysmydoctor
10/15/09, 08:25 PM
There is no such thing as reverse racism.
caveBEAR
10/15/09, 08:32 PM
THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!!!
No, but seriously, I'm a middle class white American male...someone probably could take my job. Lame.
I agree with all the other statements about economic status instead of race.
caveBEAR
10/15/09, 08:34 PM
There is no such thing as reverse racism.
In the way that it would just be 'racism' because the reversing of an action or feeling like racism causes a paradox that would destroy the world, or the more obvious one?
theguy77
10/15/09, 08:37 PM
I think it's reverse racism to be honest. And it lowers the standards of accountability for students/employees.
neither of these statements are true. the first implies that you are unaware of the issues that minority communities face, not because of current racism, but because of past racism and the infrastructural consequences that came out of the backlash to desegregation which continue to linger in the present. the second implies that you dont recognize that a company will fire a black employee just as quickly as they hired them if they exhibit misconduct and/or relatively poor performance.
jawstheme
10/15/09, 09:15 PM
There is no such thing as reverse racism.
Right it's just racism or discrimination. The reverse part is unnecessary.
mooshthedoosh
10/15/09, 09:44 PM
no, i dont agree with affirmative action. If it was under a different umbrella or blanket, Id let it slide though. I dont agree with someone edging out someone just because of race. I agree with, if someone happened to be a minority, has the same capacities as someone grown up in a suburban middle class home, but doesnt have the opportunities to let his intellect be shown. In that instance, I agree with a program that helps these types of people be heard. As a whole, it seems like affirmative action mainly focuses on races that are not common in their schools, hence bringing in people to higher league institutions whether they deserve it or not.
The government should focus on bringing quality education in urban areas more. That way, though there might be the same rate of drop outs in urban areas, but there will be more quality minorities of minorities with great education and a good base to be in elite schools such as Harvard or Yale.
thursday727
10/16/09, 01:55 AM
It should be based primarily on economic status rather than race.
yes
honestIpod
10/16/09, 07:15 AM
neither of these statements are true. the first implies that you are unaware of the issues that minority communities face, not because of current racism, but because of past racism and the infrastructural consequences that came out of the backlash to desegregation which continue to linger in the present. the second implies that you dont recognize that a company will fire a black employee just as quickly as they hired them if they exhibit misconduct and/or relatively poor performance.
Very, Very good comment
macabre
10/16/09, 10:01 AM
Although basing it on income would be far less controversial, it's an incomplete solution because whites have much higher mobility than blacks. In fact, whites get out of poverty significantly faster than blacks while blacks are much more prone to fall back into poverty. It's a sticky situation any way you cut it. Maybe a two factor approach is needed.
http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_Key_Findings_11-13-07.pdf
RedWineSheets
10/16/09, 12:25 PM
i believe decisions should be made on merit not skin color.
saysmydoctor
10/16/09, 12:40 PM
i believe decisions should be made on merit not skin color.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Theory_of_Justice
xshady121
10/16/09, 12:43 PM
Although basing it on income would be far less controversial, it's an incomplete solution because whites have much higher mobility than blacks. In fact, whites get out of poverty significantly faster than blacks while blacks are much more prone to fall back into poverty. It's a sticky situation any way you cut it. Maybe a two factor approach is needed.
http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP_Key_Findings_11-13-07.pdf
when you examine concentrated poverty, it is clear both blacks and whites are unable to achieve upward mobility.
Which is why gautreaux worked so well in the 60s.
bernie16wb
10/16/09, 12:49 PM
Affirmative Action is discrimination. I feel discrimination based on anything other than merit and qualifications (for whatever we're applying for/striving for be it a job, school, whatever) is wrong in the most basic sense.
Baby for Pree
10/16/09, 12:52 PM
I can't discuss Affirmative Action with AP kids. Too frustrating.
RedWineSheets
10/16/09, 12:53 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Theory_of_Justice
give me an overview, im kinda busy with school right now to read anything other than casebooks and legal documents.
saysmydoctor
10/16/09, 01:01 PM
Affirmative Action is discrimination. I feel discrimination based on anything other than merit and qualifications (for whatever we're applying for/striving for be it a job, school, whatever) is wrong in the most basic sense.
It's actually the opposite of discrimination.
give me an overview, im kinda busy with school right now to read anything other than casebooks and legal documents.
The sarcastic point I was trying to make it that John Rawls makes in that book:
If you take away everything, all these so-called merits which we really get from society as a whole, all man is virtually equal. It's not fair to judge people by their merits.
Debut_Fin
10/16/09, 01:10 PM
http://www.amoeba.com/dynamic-images/blog/Sarah/larrydavid.jpg
bernie16wb
10/16/09, 01:49 PM
It's actually the opposite of discrimination.
No, no it isn't.
saysmydoctor
10/16/09, 01:57 PM
Is it discrimination to bar them from going to school because of socioeconomic reasons or admit them because they are black?
It's discrimination on both sides, so we're both wrong/right.
macabre
10/16/09, 02:01 PM
when you examine concentrated poverty, it is clear both blacks and whites are unable to achieve upward mobility.
Which is why gautreaux worked so well in the 60s.
But aren't blacks also more likely to live in areas with high levels of concentrated poverty? This a complex issue and I'm not advocating for one solution over another, I just think merely taking income into account is a bit simplistic.
Buried A Lie
10/16/09, 08:29 PM
I would say for some people who are so clearly against this, make sure you understand Affirmative Action policy first. It is not simply giving positions to minorities who are less qualified than other position candidates. These policies mostly require institutions to take an affirmative action (actuals steps and measures) on making sure equal rights and equal opportunities are present, as opposed to simply just saying these things are. Too often this gets dumbed down to 'white person didn't get into college because less qualified black person did.'
Poe-tryGirl
10/21/09, 01:29 PM
I had a debate about this today. I was given pro-affirmative action, but I think I beasted it.
Love As Arson
10/21/09, 04:53 PM
I am for more affirmative action. The current policy does not go far enough.
Kozzy333
10/23/09, 06:49 AM
We oppressed minorities so that they did not have many oppurtunities and could not get out of poverty. Affirmative action could help break this cycle of poverty.
captivewear
10/23/09, 10:40 AM
If i was a minority I would be so offended by Affirmative Action. It is basically saying that blacks and others aren't as good as whites. It is a slap in the face to every black person in the US. The way I look at it is that if I am white and I am applying for a job where only Asians worked at and they didn't or wouldn't hire me because I am white even though I am qualified for the job then I wouldn't want to work there! So if any minorities wanted to get a job someone and they wouldn't hire them because there colored then why the hell would you want to work there? America does not need Affirmative Action, America needs to teach more equality and stop the closed minded right winged ideals that cause things like Affirmative Action to take place. Teach young adults in High School and College kids to interview correctly and a better way to present themselves and we won't see junk like Affirmative Action being needed!
Jason Tate
10/23/09, 10:56 AM
If i was a minority I would be so offended by Affirmative Action. It is basically saying that blacks and others aren't as good as whites. It is a slap in the face to every black person in the US. The way I look at it is that if I am white and I am applying for a job where only Asians worked at and they didn't or wouldn't hire me because I am white even though I am qualified for the job then I wouldn't want to work there! So if any minorities wanted to get a job someone and they wouldn't hire them because there colored then why the hell would you want to work there? America does not need Affirmative Action, America needs to teach more equality and stop the closed minded right winged ideals that cause things like Affirmative Action to take place. Teach young adults in High School and College kids to interview correctly and a better way to present themselves and we won't see junk like Affirmative Action being needed!
You sure about that?
I am for more affirmative action. The current policy does not go far enough.
captivewear
10/23/09, 11:02 AM
You sure about that?
Absolutely. People need to stop pulling out the racism card for everything negative that happens. Color shouldn't be a negative thing it should be used as a positive. A lot of companies would rather hire more minorities because you get certain tax breaks for having a certain percentage of minorities.
Love As Arson
10/23/09, 04:13 PM
If i was a minority I would be so offended by Affirmative Action. It is basically saying that blacks and others aren't as good as whites.
No, it's acknowledging that historical circumstances had concrete effects on a particular group.
It is a slap in th e face to every black person in the US.!
That was slavery and Jim Crow.And people that deny the effects of those things.
The way I look at it is that if I am white and I am applying for a job where only Asians worked at and they didn't or wouldn't hire me because I am white even though I am qualified for the job then I wouldn't want to work there!
They wouldn't do that because you,by virtue of your race, already meet a standard.
America does not need Affirmative Action, America needs to teach more equality and stop the closed minded right winged ideals that cause things like Affirmative Action to take place. Teach young adults in High School and College kids to interview correctly and a better way to present themselves and we won't see junk like Affirmative Action being needed!
We talk about equality between the races all the time. It doesn't occur because it requires structural changes. Also, if you think poor interview skills are the problem:
The University of Chicago's Marianne Bertrand and MIT's Sendhil Mullainathan, however, appeared to find that a black-sounding name can be an impediment, in another recent NBER paper entitled "Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakisha and Jamal?"
The authors took the content of 500 real resumes off online job boards and then evaluated them, as objectively as possible, for quality, using such factors as education and experience. Then they replaced the names with made-up names picked to "sound white" or "sound black" and responded to 1,300 job ads in The Boston Globe and Chicago Tribune last year.
Previous studies have examined how employers responded to similarly qualified applicants they meet in person, but this experiment attempted to isolate the response to the name itself.
White names got about one callback per 10 resumes; black names got one per 15. Carries and Kristens had call-back rates of more than 13 percent, but Aisha, Keisha and Tamika got 2.2 percent, 3.8 percent and 5.4 percent, respectively. And having a higher quality resume, featuring more skills and experience, made a white-sounding name 30 percent more likely to elicit a callback, but only 9 percent more likely for black-sounding names.
Even employers who specified "equal opportunity employer" showed bias, leading Mullainathan to suggest companies serious about diversity must take steps to confront even unconscious biases - for instance, by not looking at names when first evaluating a resume.
Both studies have their shortcomings; the California records give only broad indicators of economic achievement, and studying whose resumes elicit callbacks doesn't show who ultimately gets the jobs or what they do once employed.
But both also point to dilemmas for advocates of greater economic opportunity for blacks. Some, like Fryer, are eager to show black culture isn't a handicap, and black parents shouldn't shy away from it. On the other hand, Bertrand and Mullainathan's work suggests a black name could still conceivably hold someone back. The question is whether a distinctive name is a cause or consequence of black isolation.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/29/national/main575685.shtml
Love As Arson strikes again.
They wouldn't do that because you,by virtue of your race, already meet a standard.
This is blatantly false. It happens all the time in predominately Asian and Mexican-owned restaurants. Granted, comparatively, it happens on a lot less smaller scale than the converse, but it does happen.
I think that when it was first put into action, it was necessary, but we're moving towards a point where we'll no longer need it.
Love As Arson
10/23/09, 05:42 PM
This is blatantly false. It happens all the time in predominately Asian and Mexican-owned restaurants. Granted, comparatively, it happens on a lot less smaller scale than the converse, but it does happen.
Let me correct myself: I'm sure it might happen,but,generally speaking,whites aren't denied jobs based on ethnicity. It is a privilege other groups do not enjoy.
Let me correct myself: I'm sure it might happen,but,generally speaking,whites aren't denied jobs based on ethnicity. It is a privilege other groups do not enjoy.
Indeed, which is damn tragedy.
This is blatantly false. It happens all the time in predominately Asian and Mexican-owned restaurants. Granted, comparatively, it happens on a lot less smaller scale than the converse, but it does happen.
Let me correct myself: I'm sure it might happen,but,generally speaking,whites aren't denied jobs based on ethnicity. It is a privilege other groups do not enjoy.
In addition: backlash against whites for decades of subjugation and 2nd class citizen status =/= discrimination against whites and their culture because it's judged to be "inferior".
saysmydoctor
10/23/09, 07:44 PM
Let me correct myself: I'm sure it might happen,but,generally speaking,whites aren't denied jobs based on ethnicity. It is a privilege other groups do not enjoy.
:appl:
In addition: backlash against whites for decades of subjugation and 2nd class citizen status =/= discrimination against whites and their culture because it's judged to be "inferior".
Prejudice and, consequently, discrimination happen for a number of reasons--much of it is (sadly) inert and is independent of cultural bias.
Prejudice and, consequently, discrimination happen for a number of reasons--much of it is (sadly) inert and is independent of cultural bias.
True. But if you slap me for a long time and one day I finally slap back...yes, technically it's STILL violent. But I'd say it's reasonable, if not warranted.
True. But if you slap me for a long time and one day I finally slap back...yes, technically it's STILL violent. But I'd say it's reasonable, if not warranted.
This sounds eerily similar to an eye for an eye...
This sounds eerily similar to an eye for an eye...
No, it sounds similar to "Americans have by and large made a permanent underclass out of my people. Hence, get the fuck out of my store."
No, it sounds similar to "Americans have by and large made a permanent underclass out of my people. Hence, get the fuck out of my store."
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
And somehow that's out of line?
And somehow that's out of line?
Discrimination based on race is always out of line and shortsighted, in my opinion. So yes.
Discrimination based on race is always out of line and shortsighted, in my opinion. So yes.
And we've just spent several posts DEMONSTRATING that it ISN'T based on race. It's based on decades of BEHAVIOR.
And we've just spent several posts DEMONSTRATING that it ISN'T based on race. It's based on decades of BEHAVIOR.
It's completely based on race. It's applying a specific behavior and attitude (the will to oppress) to an entire race.
It's completely based on race. It's applying a specific behavior and attitude (the will to oppress) to an entire race.
Uhh...seeing as how an entire race HAS oppressed everyone else...pretty much since...FOREVER...the shoe seems to fit.
Uhh...seeing as how an entire race HAS oppressed everyone else...pretty much since...FOREVER...the shoe seems to fit.
Okay, anyone that is considered "white" invariably holds the position that all other races are inferior, endorses past atrocities committed by whites, and continues to discriminate against minorities. Therefore, it's legitimate for minorities to discriminate against whites.
Are you actually arguing this position? Because you seem to be saying that since I happen to be white, and since terrible past acts against minorities were committed by whites, it's okay to discriminate against me today. Because my skin color happens to be white.
Nice to see you change your position that it is based on race, however.
Okay, anyone that is considered "white" invariably holds the position that all other races are inferior, endorses past atrocities committed by whites, and continues to discriminate against minorities. Therefore, it's legitimate for minorities to discriminate against whites.
Are you actually arguing this position? Because you seem to be saying that since I happen to be white, and since terrible past acts against minorities were committed by whites, it's okay to discriminate against me today. Because my skin color happens to be white.
Nice to see you change your position that it is based on race, however.
No, but anyone who is considered "white" invariably HAS held the position OF superiority (socio-economically and politically) over all other races throughout most of human history. Hence while "discrimination" against them should not be condoned, I certainly don't find it as grievous or unfounded as I do the converse.
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