Some kids in the Music Forum think...

[Matthew Tsai]

a band praying during a show is "intolerance" and "bigotry" towards the audience. Discuss.

[Brand-new-123]

Well it obviously is, because anything I don't agree with (even optional activities) is automatically oppressive and discriminatory.

[Trilogique]

I'm sure if you like the band enough to go to their show, you like them enough to know that they're stupid enough to do this.

Christian enough, I mean.

[Machu505]

I miss the good ol' days when we could say a band sucked and not have to accuse them of being fascists.

[Matthew Tsai]

I miss the good ol' days when we could say a band sucked and not have to accuse them of being fascists.

I miss when people were rational... but then again, people have always been irrational.

[saysmydoctor]

I'm guessing by 'a band' you mean Underoath.

[Machu505]

I'm guessing by 'a band' you mean Underoath.
I'm posting with this assumption.

[Brand-new-123]

I'm guessing by 'a band' you mean Underoath.
yeah because they're the only Christian band out there and they definitely pray during all of their shows.

here's the actual thread: http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=55801451#post55801 451

[wroteurname]

this happens?

[Matthew Tsai]

I'm guessing by 'a band' you mean Underoath.

No, just "christian bands" in general I believe. I actually don't know. I went in the thread and I immediately found myself in the midst of this "praying on stage is intolerance" argument.

[Smash Adams]

If you go to a Christian rock concert you should expect Christian themes, it would be like going to Krispy Kreme and being upset that they have donuts

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

Omg They Should Remove "in God We Trust" From Our Money Thats Intolerance!!

Should Remove "under God" From Pledge Too . Omg Thats So Intolerant!!!

Xxx

[saysmydoctor]

yeah because they're the only Christian band out there and they definitely pray during all of their shows.

here's the actual thread: http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=55801451#post55801 451
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

[Brand-new-123]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/duh (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm)

[Matthew Tsai]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

lol wait until the last few pages of the thread where you find that there are actually people who think this way

[Meeze]

you paid to see the band, and thus, you are paying to see what they do. the band did not pay to see you. if the band prays during their set, that is their choice, and you, holding the ticket, have paid to see them pray. it is not bigotry or intolerance. it is freedom of speech and a podium for some to express their views. in the end, if you do not agree with them, you do not need to pay for that ticket to see them.

[saysmydoctor]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/duh (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm)
http://www.google.com/search?q=stfu+definition&btnG=Search&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=GmL&sa=2

[kbi the crowing]

bands can do whatever they want, it's their show
but i'd prefer they didn't

[honkyg88]

you paid to see the band, and thus, you are paying to see what they do. the band did not pay to see you. if the band prays during their set, that is their choice, and you, holding the ticket, have paid to see them pray. it is not bigotry or intolerance. it is freedom of speech and a podium for some to express their views. in the end, if you do not agree with them, you do not need to pay for that ticket to see them.
Well said

[Matthew Tsai]

Well what do you know, there are rational people on this board.

[Josh Weinstein]

And yet, people have no problem attending a football game and seeing a player pray to God after he scores a touchdown.

[Derka Derka]

If you go to a Christian rock concert you should expect Christian themes, it would be like going to Krispy Kreme and being upset that they have donuts

Exactly

[Derka Derka]

you paid to see the band, and thus, you are paying to see what they do. the band did not pay to see you. if the band prays during their set, that is their choice, and you, holding the ticket, have paid to see them pray. it is not bigotry or intolerance. it is freedom of speech and a podium for some to express their views. in the end, if you do not agree with them, you do not need to pay for that ticket to see them.

Well said

[Love As Arson]

I can understand the annoyance. Also, bands do try to crossover which means including a pluralistic group of fans and it seems to me that it'd be disrespectful to put forth a very divisive demonstration.

[Matthew Tsai]

I can understand the annoyance. Also, bands do try to crossover which means including a pluralistic group of fans and it seems to me that it'd be disrespectful to put forth a very divisive demonstration.

I don't think it's disrespectful if it's the band's conviction and they don't try to force anyone to do it... ?

[Love As Arson]

I don't think it's disrespectful if it's the band's conviction and they don't try to force anyone to do it... ?

A show is meant to be inclusive and to establish a relationship with fans.Having a portion of the show related to something necessarily exclusive is a bit disrespectful.

[blebbio]

lol bands do that?

[LastDeclaration]

Haha, it's not bigotry, but it's fucking stupid.

[Debut_Fin]

not my favorite part of a show but if i like the music i put up with it. its no big deal. no reason to get so worked up over it.

[Matt Chylak]

A show is meant to be inclusive and to establish a relationship with fans.Having a portion of the show related to something necessarily exclusive is a bit disrespectful.

why is a show meant to be inclusive? when i saw kanye west on the glow in the dark tour he didn't talk to the audience once. when i saw brand new in philly a couple years ago the only thing jesse said was 'hi. we're brand new.'

[Love As Arson]

why is a show meant to be inclusive? when i saw kanye west on the glow in the dark tour he didn't talk to the audience once. when i saw brand new in philly a couple years ago the only thing jesse said was 'hi. we're brand new.'
It doesn't necessarily mean speaking to the audience. Did Kanye or Jesse go off on a particular subject that is divisive?

[nerdvglc]

when i'm at a concert, and they're up there praying away, i use that time to catch my breath and chill for a minute. i don't like it, but i understand that for better or worse it's part of their ritual and/or performance.

if i ever get a soapbox on stage, i'll preach for a minute on eliminating ignorance. i feel like that's the big problem.

[Matt Chylak]

It doesn't necessarily mean speaking to the audience. Did Kanye or Jesse go off on a particular subject that is divisive?

kanye did at the end, when he soliloquized about his portrayl in the media.

[Matt Chylak]

when i'm at a concert, and they're up there praying away, i use that time to catch my breath and chill for a minute. i don't like it, but i understand that for better or worse it's part of their ritual and/or performance.

if i ever get a soapbox on stage, i'll preach for a minute on eliminating ignorance. i feel like that's the big problem.

i hope you realize the irony within your statement.

[nerdvglc]

i hope you realize the irony within your statement.
i do. i just think it would be fun to be that guy. i very much enjoy doing things that i find stupid, just because there are so many people who eat that shit up. i'm even kind of bad about using my own friends' ignorance for my amusement.

[Matt Chylak]

i do. i just think it would be fun to be that guy. i very much enjoy doing things that i find stupid, just because there are so many people who eat that shit up. i'm even kind of bad about using my own friends' ignorance for my amusement.

hahaha well played sir

[Kozzy333]

Never seen anyone pray but a screamer/singer in a metalcore band starting talking about starting the group to spread the message of god, he was mostly booed by the audience.

[A7XXX]

Out of the two times I've seen Underoath (one of them was at Warped) I didn't see the praying on stage at all or I could be pretty far in the back to notice. But anyways liking a band generally involve knowing their beliefs and what their behaviors are at shows. And if somehow people don't know about this beforehand, there's always the option of leaving or just never to see them live again. To me this seems so easy and don't even need to be discussed.

[BryterJonah]

Sufjan Steven playing any song is pretty much equivalent to hearing an angel pray.

But to just do it minus the music sounds pretty lame, as is every band on Tooth'n'Nail.

[Regards]

A show is meant to be inclusive and to establish a relationship with fans.Having a portion of the show related to something necessarily exclusive is a bit disrespectful.
What if a show is meant to be an act of worship to God, and praying is merely part of that show? You're putting limitations on what a show can or cannot be, which is where I think this whole argument is stemming from.

[briewer]

Intolerant? Meh. I can sympathize with both views.

Obnoxious? Completely.

[zion the lion]

They're not banning all of the jews from attending their shows because the "jews killed jesus" are they? So no, it's not intolerance, people know what to expect when they're going to a certain show.

[yves.]

Intolerant? Meh. I can sympathize with both views.

Obnoxious? Completely.

off topic, but i love your avatar.

[Brand-new-123]

Sufjan Steven playing any song is pretty much equivalent to hearing an angel pray.

But to just do it minus the music sounds pretty lame, as is every band on Tooth'n'Nail.
Love Sufjan.

What tooth and nail bands pray on stage?

[briewer]

off topic, but i love your avatar.
Thanks. It's what I started with two years ago, and I haven't found anything that could possibly better it.

[BryterJonah]

What tooth and nail bands pray on stage?
They're the big Christian band label aren't they?

[xJesusFreakx]

What if a show is meant to be an act of worship to God, and praying is merely part of that show? You're putting limitations on what a show can or cannot be, which is where I think this whole argument is stemming from.

Came in here to say this.

[Brand-new-123]

They're the big Christian band label aren't they?
They're not exclusively Christian bands but a lot of bands on the label have some Christian members or are Christian bands. They have a lot of bands that I would not consider Christian at all and I can't recall any of them praying on stage in recent memory (even at "Christian" festivals like Cornerstone). being a Christian friendly label =/= being a Christian label.

[HometownHero]

:wave: Hi. Seeing a thread built off my comments is kinda cool. Still think the two should be separated completely. I'm not being irrational. Why cater to one group? People keep saying I'm being selfish but you're being fucking selfish because you want the prayer for you. For you to be comfortable and for you to praise God. I do not. So just leaving it out and maybe throwing a PP (Prayer Party) after the show for all those who want to attend and share their praises is fine. Then everyone gets what they want

[Ferzaer]

come on guys, saying prayer on stage would probably just their gimmick to show that they actually care about you guys being in faith. i mean, i know that people who listen to christian bands are not all christians, but supposely we should just accept the fact they are wanting their fans to worship god as much as they do, but if you keep pretending that you dont even care about their prayer, they don't care about you either.

they just do it because they are the christian bands. i suppose that if you go to a show which have buddha or islamic or any religious bands performing, they would probably do the same thing too. praying on stage. so, to me, it's alright to pray onstage, doesnt matter, it's not like they want us to be in their religion too.

[blebbio]

i don't know much about religion but why would anyone even do that?

[And Hours Pass]

They're not banning all of the jews from attending their shows because the "jews killed jesus" are they? So no, it's not intolerance, people know what to expect when they're going to a certain show.
Tell me this is sarcasm that isn't coming across.

[al.is.on]

I can see both sides of this, but I personally dont agree witht he idea of praying on stage, the fans are there to see the band play music, not to see them pray, surely they can go the length of a sets worth of songs without having to pray?

[zachff]

Omg They Should Remove "in God We Trust" From Our Money Thats Intolerance!!

Should Remove "under God" From Pledge Too . Omg Thats So Intolerant!!!

Xxx

A lot of people have made this argument before, legitimately. Wouldn't bother me if those happened.

[Regards]

:wave: Hi. Seeing a thread built off my comments is kinda cool. Still think the two should be separated completely. I'm not being irrational. Why cater to one group? People keep saying I'm being selfish but you're being fucking selfish because you want the prayer for you. For you to be comfortable and for you to praise God. I do not. So just leaving it out and maybe throwing a PP (Prayer Party) after the show for all those who want to attend and share their praises is fine. Then everyone gets what they want
I'll say it again, you don't understand the purpose or the power of prayer during the time of worship. Worship is not just limited to songs that are contemporary worship ie Chris Tomlin etc, but can be in many different forms.
come on guys, saying prayer on stage would probably just their gimmick to show that they actually care about you guys being in faith. i mean, i know that people who listen to christian bands are not all christians, but supposely we should just accept the fact they are wanting their fans to worship god as much as they do, but if you keep pretending that you dont even care about their prayer, they don't care about you either.

they just do it because they are the christian bands. i suppose that if you go to a show which have buddha or islamic or any religious bands performing, they would probably do the same thing too. praying on stage. so, to me, it's alright to pray onstage, doesnt matter, it's not like they want us to be in their religion too.
Gimmick? There is so much wrong and assumed with this post I don't even know where to begin. I care and pray for a ton of people who don't care about me. It's part of the call of a member in Christ to do so. And I'm sure that a lot of Christians do the same.
I can see both sides of this, but I personally dont agree witht he idea of praying on stage, the fans are there to see the band play music, not to see them pray, surely they can go the length of a sets worth of songs without having to pray?
Like I said in the previous thread, I go to some shows expecting there to be prayer. In fact if I go to a Christian show, and there isn't prayer, I would probably find myself pretty disappointed. You can go into shows expecting what ever you would like, but that doesn't mean that the person next to you is going to be expecting the same thing, and that certainly doesn't mean that bands have to cater to either of those expectations.

[Nevuk]

I don't think anyone is saying you can't pray during a christian music festival. What they're saying is that it's annoying when a group of christians making secular music asks the audience to pray with them - it comes off like the quarterback thanking god for his touchdown.

[perceptrons]

Omg They Should Remove "in God We Trust" From Our Money Thats Intolerance!!

Should Remove "under God" From Pledge Too . Omg Thats So Intolerant!!!

Xxx
They should remove both, I agree.

They're not exclusively Christian bands but a lot of bands on the label have some Christian members or are Christian bands. They have a lot of bands that I would not consider Christian at all and I can't recall any of them praying on stage in recent memory (even at "Christian" festivals like Cornerstone). being a Christian friendly label =/= being a Christian label.
While all this is true, when I think of Tooth and Nail, I think of Christian bands for the most part. So whether they call themselves it or not, they will be associated with it all the same.

[Jason Tate]

Freedom of speech goes both ways. Don't like it - don't go.

[Ferzaer]

I'll say it again, you don't understand the purpose or the power of prayer during the time of worship. Worship is not just limited to songs that are contemporary worship ie Chris Tomlin etc, but can be in many different forms.

Gimmick? There is so much wrong and assumed with this post I don't even know where to begin. I care and pray for a ton of people who don't care about me. It's part of the call of a member in Christ to do so. And I'm sure that a lot of Christians do the same.

Like I said in the previous thread, I go to some shows expecting there to be prayer. In fact if I go to a Christian show, and there isn't prayer, I would probably find myself pretty disappointed. You can go into shows expecting what ever you would like, but that doesn't mean that the person next to you is going to be expecting the same thing, and that certainly doesn't mean that bands have to cater to either of those expectations.

owh, yeah you probably right then. i mean, so many people said that it's disrespectful and stuffs... about bands praying on stage. i guess i just say that it's a gimmick because people complain so much about bands making their prayers. i want to not offend them but in the same time i actually didnt agree with them either. but i guess that people just doesnt like prayers because they are not in the same faith as we do.

[tyramail]

i think it's one thing for the band to pray with each other before they play, but to have the audience join in and pray with them is another.

[Derka Derka]

i think it's one thing for the band to pray with each other before they play, but to have the audience join in and pray with them is another.

Why? There is freedom of speech in America, you can say whatever you want. You might not pray but some others in the crowd might and they could want to join the band in prayer and publicly show their faith/beliefs. You don't have to listen to them pray if you don't want to. Plus if you're going to a show where there are going to be bands that are known for having strong convictions about their faith/belifs then you should expect them to say something about them. If I went to a show where a straight edge band or environmentally active band was playing and neither of them said anything about the environment or how stupid and worthless people who drink are I'd be very surprised. Saying something about religion is really no different then saying something about either of those things or a million other beliefs that bands have. It's not going to ruin a concert for me if some dude says something that might contradict my beliefs, I'm there for the music anyways.

[Matthew Tsai]

Freedom of speech goes both ways. Don't like it - don't go.

/thread

The argument isn't whether you like it or not. You can like it or not like it, that's fine. The argument is whether it should somehow be considered "intolerance," and it's not.

[HometownHero]

I'll say it again, you don't understand the purpose or the power of prayer during the time of worship. Worship is not just limited to songs that are contemporary worship ie Chris Tomlin etc, but can be in many different forms.


Like at church. Not at a show where many non believers will be

[HometownHero]

Why? There is freedom of speech in America, you can say whatever you want. You might not pray but some others in the crowd might and they could want to join the band in prayer and publicly show their faith/beliefs. You don't have to listen to them pray if you don't want to. Plus if you're going to a show where there are going to be bands that are known for having strong convictions about their faith/belifs then you should expect them to say something about them. If I went to a show where a straight edge band or environmentally active band was playing and neither of them said anything about the environment or how stupid and worthless people who drink are I'd be very surprised. Saying something about religion is really no different then saying something about either of those things or a million other beliefs that bands have. It's not going to ruin a concert for me if some dude says something that might contradict my beliefs, I'm there for the music anyways.
The bolded, is a very idiotic statement. Straight edge bands do not use the stage to bash on those who drink or use any other substance. They do their thing and others do theirs. But unlike you and your Christian praying friends they separate them at shows

[Regards]

Like at church. Not at a show where many non believers will be
You really keep digging yourself deeper. So should the next time there is church we should make sure there are no non-believers there, and if there are, not have prayer and worship?

[HometownHero]

You really keep digging yourself deeper. So should the next time there is church we should make sure there are no non-believers there, and if there are, not have prayer and worship?
Don't be an idiot. If you are at church you are there for either: 1) To pray/worship/whatever 2) Investigate the belief system and see if it is for you. No one can force you to go to church. You know what you are getting when you go because that is what it is for. Your statement is immature and ridiculous

[tyramail]

Why? There is freedom of speech in America, you can say whatever you want. You might not pray but some others in the crowd might and they could want to join the band in prayer and publicly show their faith/beliefs. You don't have to listen to them pray if you don't want to. Plus if you're going to a show where there are going to be bands that are known for having strong convictions about their faith/belifs then you should expect them to say something about them. If I went to a show where a straight edge band or environmentally active band was playing and neither of them said anything about the environment or how stupid and worthless people who drink are I'd be very surprised. Saying something about religion is really no different then saying something about either of those things or a million other beliefs that bands have. It's not going to ruin a concert for me if some dude says something that might contradict my beliefs, I'm there for the music anyways.
i'm fully aware there is freedom of speech. but the way i see it, they are alienating the people who don't believe by having the audience participate. if they don't say a prayer, then it's non-alienating to either believers or non-believers. but i can't say i wouldn't be surprised if i saw a band who i knew was religious, and they prayed. but i don't really listen to many bands with strong religious convictions, so i've never been to a show where the band prayed with the audience, and i go to a lot of shows. so if i went to a show for a band that i was unaware had religious views and they prayed, then yes i would feel alienated. and while i don't necessarily disagree that saying something about religion is different than saying something about the environment or straight-edge beliefs, that bolded statement is ridiculous.

[Regards]

Don't be an idiot. If you are at church you are there for either: 1) To pray/worship/whatever 2) Investigate the belief system and see if it is for you. No one can force you to go to church. You know what you are getting when you go because that is what it is for. Your statement is immature and ridiculous
I go to shows to pray/worship.

[Brand-new-123]

Don't be an idiot. If you are at church you are there for either: 1) To pray/worship/whatever 2) Investigate the belief system and see if it is for you. No one can force you to go to church. You know what you are getting when you go because that is what it is for. Your statement is immature and ridiculous
how often does someone force you to go to a show?

[HometownHero]

how often does someone force you to go to a show?
Happened once or twice. No one prayed at them tho.

[HometownHero]

I go to shows to pray/worship.
Who's playing? Kutless and Kids In The Way? Different then having one Christian band on tour with other bands and seeing them pray then going to an all Christian show that is always worship and preachy and in my opinion stupid. You wont catch me at those.

[Jason Tate]

Don't be an idiot. If you are at church you are there for either: 1) To pray/worship/whatever 2) Investigate the belief system and see if it is for you. No one can force you to go to church. You know what you are getting when you go because that is what it is for. Your statement is immature and ridiculous
Coming from the kid telling a group of people, he is choosing to watch, what they can and cannot say ... this is ironic.

[HometownHero]

Coming from the kid telling a group of people, he is choosing to watch, what they can and cannot say ... this is ironic.
I can't tell anyone what to say. They will still do whatever they want because everyone is right, it's their show. I would just prefer it if they left out the praying and religious banter. It is alienating people who don't believe the same.

[Brand-new-123]

Happened once or twice. No one prayed at them tho.
So, it bothers you that a couple Christian bands pray from the stage on tours, with non Christian bands, that you aren't forced to go to and participate in? You want bands to give up their rights to free speech at a completely optional event because it might offend somebody or alienate people from a cause that you don't agree with?

That seems intolerant and bigoted to me. I would think you would want them preaching and stuff if it really alienates non believers from something you perceive as a lie. But maybe that's just me.

[Jason Tate]

I can't tell anyone what to say. They will still do whatever they want because everyone is right, it's their show. I would just prefer it if they left out the praying and religious banter. It is alienating people who don't believe the same.
Good. It should. Alienation is a part of life. That's the beauty of a country like ours. Deal with it and shut the fuck up.

[HometownHero]

Good. It should. Alienation is a part of life. That's the beauty of a country like ours. Deal with it and shut the fuck up.
Do you believe in God?

[alice+interiors]

i don't know much about religion but why would anyone even do that?
Why would anyone who has a religion pray? Are you serious?

Freedom of speech goes both ways. Don't like it - don't go.
Basically - it's been said before in this thread but this is nice/concise.

i think it's one thing for the band to pray with each other before they play, but to have the audience join in and pray with them is another.
I don't really think this is the issue. It's not like the band is forcing you to join in - rather they are praying in front of you, or making an example of what they believe to be right. They aren't trying to force everyone to focus on God, and pray with them.

[Jason Tate]

Do you believe in God?
No.

[HometownHero]

No.
Do you like when people preach at you about God? Maybe shove their beliefs down your throat a little?

[Jason Tate]

Do you like when people preach at you about God? Maybe shove their beliefs down your throat a little?
Feel free to walk outside. Feel free not to go to the show in the first place.

You're the dude buying a hamburger, taking a bite, and then saying it's shoved down your throat.

[Matthew Tsai]

Do you like when people preach at you about God? Maybe shove their beliefs down your throat a little?

Plus, I've never been to a show where they shove their beliefs down my throat. Talking about God doesn't = force feeding. They can say whatever they want, and as long as they're not saying "believe this or go to hell" in threatening fashion, that's their freedom to. I am not offended by somebody simply talking about God.

[Trilogique]

Omg They Should Remove "in God We Trust" From Our Money Thats Intolerance!!

Should Remove "under God" From Pledge Too . Omg Thats So Intolerant!!!

Xxx

They.. actually should do both of those things, moron.

Britain has Darwin on one of its notes. The US has 'in god we trust'.

Hrmm... Explains why Britain is better.

[x togepi x]

I can see how it could be considered intolerant since many Christian bands are stealth like in their beliefs these days. You could easily listen to songs by some of them and think they're not about god at all. This is especially true considering the trend in Christian music where bands say "oh we're not a Christian band" but then go on and sing about Christianity anyway.

It depends on the context and the audience. It's too complicated to make a blanket statement either way.

[Jason Tate]

They.. actually should do both of those things, moron.

Britain has Darwin on one of its notes. The US has 'in god we trust'.

Hrmm... Explains why Britain is better.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/08/14/science/sciencespecial2/15evo_lg.jpg

We got Turkey beat.

[Simulcast]

Plus, I've never been to a show where they shove their beliefs down my throat. Talking about God doesn't = force feeding. They can say whatever they want, and as long as they're not saying "believe this or go to hell" in threatening fashion, that's their freedom to. I am not offended by somebody simply talking about God.


Agreed. It's the same when a band discusses politics. Most every band I see has a liberal viewpoint and some choose to talk about. Does it bug me? Sometimes, yeah, but it's completely within their rights to do so, so whatever. It doesn't ruin the show for me.

[Simulcast]

They.. actually should do both of those things, moron.

Britain has Darwin on one of its notes. The US has 'in god we trust'.

Hrmm... Explains why Britain is better.


What are you talking about?

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

They.. actually should do both of those things, moron.

Britain has Darwin on one of its notes. The US has 'in god we trust'.

Hrmm... Explains why Britain is better.

it was joke. I know it hard to detect sarcasm through text but come on

[alice+interiors]

They.. actually should do both of those things, moron.

Britain has Darwin on one of its notes. The US has 'in god we trust'.

Hrmm... Explains why Britain is better.
Darwin =/= atheism. He himself found numerous flaws in his theory (some have been disproved since, I don't dispute that) but he always stated he merely didn't care for religion.

[HometownHero]

Plus, I've never been to a show where they shove their beliefs down my throat. Talking about God doesn't = force feeding. They can say whatever they want, and as long as they're not saying "believe this or go to hell" in threatening fashion, that's their freedom to. I am not offended by somebody simply talking about God.
Neither am I. Talking about God is whatever to me. I have friends who talk about it all the time. But carrying on and then saying pray with us and trying to get everyone in on it is ridiculous. Their is a line. And I am fine to a certain extent

[Jason Tate]

I can see how it could be considered intolerant since many Christian bands are stealth like in their beliefs these days. You could easily listen to songs by some of them and think they're not about god at all. This is especially true considering the trend in Christian music where bands say "oh we're not a Christian band" but then go on and sing about Christianity anyway.

It depends on the context and the audience. It's too complicated to make a blanket statement either way.
Since when does singing about Christianity make one a Christian band? A band full of Christians is not a Christian band in the same ilk as ... Michael W Smith. Furthermore, how is being "stealth like" (which I have never seen) "intolerant" in the first place?

[alice+interiors]

I can see how it could be considered intolerant since many Christian bands are stealth like in their beliefs these days. You could easily listen to songs by some of them and think they're not about god at all. This is especially true considering the trend in Christian music where bands say "oh we're not a Christian band" but then go on and sing about Christianity anyway.

It depends on the context and the audience. It's too complicated to make a blanket statement either way.
I can't believe that any band who have 'true' faith would deny themselves to be a Christian band, and yet actively behave like one.. presumably to appeal to a wider fanbase. Did you mean anyone specific?

[Matthew Tsai]

Neither am I. Talking about God is whatever to me. I have friends who talk about it all the time. But carrying on and then saying pray with us and trying to get everyone in on it is ridiculous. Their is a line. And I am fine to a certain extent

They're getting everyone who wants to pray with them in. It's not like they're like "yo atheists, you too, come on, bow your head and pray to our Creator."

Since when does singing about Christianity make one a Christian band? A band full of Christians is not a Christian band in the same ilk as ... Michael W Smith. Furthermore, how is being "stealth like" (which I have never seen) "intolerant" in the first place?

What I was going to say.

[x togepi x]

Since when does singing about Christianity make one a Christian band?

What I'm referring to his bands that sing songs that are just as pro-Christian as any Christian band but cop out and say "oh we're a band full of christians."

I mean obviously you can sing about Christianity or have Christian themes and not count. I think Thrice does, and Murder By Death definitely does but I wouldn't call either a Christian band.

Furthermore, how is being "stealth like" (which I have never seen) "intolerant" in the first place?

like i said, it depends on context. Praying doesn't count, but I remember there was a certain Christian band from here that once had the audience "pray for all the sinners in the crowd." I consider that to be intolerant since they weren't playing a Christian show. I don't think Underoath praying at a show is, however.

[Matthew Tsai]

What I'm referring to his bands that sing songs that are just as pro-Christian as any Christian band but cop out and say "oh we're a band full of christians."

I mean obviously you can sing about Christianity or have Christian themes and not count. I think Thrice does, and Murder By Death definitely does but I wouldn't call either a Christian band.



like i said, it depends on context. Praying doesn't count, but I remember there was a certain Christian band from here that once had the audience "pray for all the sinners in the crowd." I consider that to be intolerant since they weren't playing a Christian show. I don't think Underoath praying at a show is, however.

This I can agree w/ but instances like this are so incredibly rare I would hardly count it relevant here. I mean if you're doing that while you're at a show where you know there are people who aren't Christians, then there's something wrong w/ you.

[blebbio]

Why would anyone who has a religion pray? Are you serious?
no I mean why would someone pray during a concert i don't really the reason people pray in the first place but why don't they do it before the show if it's that important to them

[Matthew Tsai]

no I mean why would someone pray during a concert i don't really the reason people pray in the first place but why don't they do it before the show if it's that important to them

That's ignorance.

[Jason Tate]

What I'm referring to his bands that sing songs that are just as pro-Christian as any Christian band but cop out and say "oh we're a band full of christians."

I mean obviously you can sing about Christianity or have Christian themes and not count. I think Thrice does, and Murder By Death definitely does but I wouldn't call either a Christian band.



like i said, it depends on context. Praying doesn't count, but I remember there was a certain Christian band from here that once had the audience "pray for all the sinners in the crowd." I consider that to be intolerant since they weren't playing a Christian show. I don't think Underoath praying at a show is, however.
It's not a cop out if it's true. A band can be pro-Christian and not a "Christian band." I don't see why not. MUTEMATH is a perfect example.

Wishing over a crowd is "intolerant"? Maybe if we lower the standards of intolerance and definitely nomoreso than the intolerance of the "non-wishers." No difference between the two if you go that route.

And yes, I am being intolerant by calling it wishing.

[rawspinner]

This thread has suddenly become an analysis of art in a Christian context. I think when considering praying during a concert, one must ask themselves the purpose behind the band and their music, or to be more accurate, what the band feels is the purpose behind them and their music. You also must consider how modern Christian thought supports a lifestyle centered around that belief versus a lifestyle of compartmentalizing different aspects of ones life (school, work, faith, relationships). This can be used by both the Christian band and the band of Christians to argue the nature and purpose of their band. In other words, you can justify praying during a show because your faith is so important to you, your musical creative sphere draws influence, energy, and purpose from it. However, you can also say you do not pray during a concert because of the personal nature of your faith and how you rather people know it through your actions and character.

[Derka Derka]

The bolded, is a very idiotic statement. Straight edge bands do not use the stage to bash on those who drink or use any other substance. They do their thing and others do theirs. But unlike you and your Christian praying friends they separate them at shows

hahaha there are a lot more straight edge bands that bash on kids that drink then they are Christian bands that bring people down for not believing what they believe

All I was trying to point out with my last post was that bands believe in different things and that people just need to be tolerate of these things. It's not like Christian bands are the only bands that might alienate potential bands.

[Love As Arson]

What if a show is meant to be an act of worship to God, and praying is merely part of that show? You're putting limitations on what a show can or cannot be, which is where I think this whole argument is stemming from.
If your music is meant to include everyone, I can't imagine a show would be about that.

[Josh Weinstein]

do people consider Brand New a Christian band? From what I read, the band members first met in their church youth group. And the latest albums features a ton of Biblical references.

[Brand-new-123]

do people consider Brand New a Christian band? From what I read, the band members first met in their church youth group. And the latest albums features a ton of Biblical references.

If everyone's a structure
Where their own savior sits
I'm a little red house
But no one's living in it

That's from Bought a Bride. So I really don't think they are. Jesse was raised in a "christian home" and went to a private Christian school, so his upbringing has probably affected his language and the way he views certain things.

[x togepi x]

It's not a cop out if it's true. A band can be pro-Christian and not a "Christian band." I don't see why not. MUTEMATH is a perfect example.

What's the difference between a pro-Christian band and a Christian band in your words then other than the title? Do you think there is one?

Wishing over a crowd is "intolerant"? Maybe if we lower the standards of intolerance and definitely nomoreso than the intolerance of the "non-wishers." No difference between the two if you go that route.

When praying for the souls of sinners to give up their sinful ways include things like people stop being gay then I consider it to be intolerant.

[zion the lion]

Tell me this is sarcasm that isn't coming across.

Which part?

[al.is.on]

I don't think anyone is saying you can't pray during a christian music festival. What they're saying is that it's annoying when a group of christians making secular music asks the audience to pray with them - it comes off like the quarterback thanking god for his touchdown.
exactly!

[And Hours Pass]

Which part?

They're not banning all of the jews from attending their shows because the "jews killed jesus" are they? So no, it's not intolerance, people know what to expect when they're going to a certain show.


This part. Please tell me this is sarcasm that just isn't landing.

[xJesusFreakx]

I actually agree with everything Jason is saying in this thread. I'm glad there's an atheist (agnostic?) in here defending band-led prayers at concerts so that I don't have to feel like I'm being too biased.

[Matthew Tsai]

I don't think anyone is saying you can't pray during a christian music festival. What they're saying is that it's annoying when a group of christians making secular music asks the audience to pray with them - it comes off like the quarterback thanking god for his touchdown.

And heaven forbid quarterbacks be allowed to express their religious beliefs wherever they wish.

[Matt Chylak]

I don't think anyone is saying you can't pray during a christian music festival. What they're saying is that it's annoying when a group of christians making secular music asks the audience to pray with them - it comes off like the quarterback thanking god for his touchdown.

what's wrong with that? he's not being intolerent at all by expressing his religion.
and you can't even relate this example to the original question because he's not asking the crowd to join in.

EDIT: basically what the guy above me said.
And heaven forbid quarterbacks be allowed to express their religious beliefs wherever they wish.

[zion the lion]

This part. Please tell me this is sarcasm that just isn't landing.

It's not sarcasm, it's an example of intolerance.

[And Hours Pass]

It's not sarcasm, it's an example of intolerance.
According to historical record, Jews executed people by stoning and Romans executed people by crucifixion. Following historical record contradicts the unfounded opinion that Jews killed Jesus and rather brings one to the widely-academically-held opinion that the Romans were actually responsible for the killing of Jesus.

[zion the lion]

According to historical record, Jews executed people by stoning and Romans executed people by crucifixion. Following historical record contradicts the unfounded opinion that Jews killed Jesus and rather brings one to the widely-academically-held opinion that the Romans were actually responsible for the killing of Jesus.

I'm not sure how much that matters, but okay.

[Nevuk]

And heaven forbid quarterbacks be allowed to express their religious beliefs wherever they wish.
I find it disrespectful to christians. It's actually hilarious as an atheist. "Oh, so you worship the god of meaningless acts? Cool"

[Matthew Tsai]

I find it disrespectful to christians. It's actually hilarious as an atheist. "Oh, so you worship the god of meaningless acts? Cool"

Haha, meaningless acts as in providing success in football? I don't find anything wrong with thanking God after a touchdown, but I see what you're saying, as in it's hilarious that God would help someone score a touchdown.

[And Hours Pass]

I'm not sure how much that matters, but okay.
It matters in the sense that you are posting about how "the jews killed jesus" when that's a completely unfounded statement. At the least, it's quite offensive. I appreciate your attempt to argue against discrimination, but the example you used was, while probably unintentional, in poor taste.

[zion the lion]

It matters in the sense that you are posting about how "the jews killed jesus" when that's a completely unfounded statement. At the least, it's quite offensive. I appreciate your attempt to argue against discrimination, but the example you used was, while probably unintentional, in poor taste.

You do realize that I put "the jews killed jesus" in quotes to show the fact that I dont actually agree with it, and because I hear it all the time right? Which is why I used it as an example of intolerance having to do with christianity. Also, if you're going to whistle blow all of the offensiveness in my comment why not go the extra mile and point out of all of the other posts and preach to them.

[kianacarly]

It matters in the sense that you are posting about how "the jews killed jesus" when that's a completely unfounded statement. At the least, it's quite offensive. I appreciate your attempt to argue against discrimination, but the example you used was, while probably unintentional, in poor taste.

Of course it was offensive, because I'm pretty sure she was giving an example of something ignorant and intolerant that some people say. I can't remember what she said exactly, but I think her whole point was that unless the Christian band says something extremely ignorant, such as the example she used about "Jews killing Jesus," she doesn't have a problem with praying at shows because if you're watching a Christian band it's not so far out there to expect prayer. But if they crossed that line, then she would have a problem. She wasn't expressing her own view on how she thinks the Jews killed Jesus. Are you serious?

[zion the lion]

Of course it was offensive, because I'm pretty sure she was giving an example of something ignorant and intolerant that some people say. I can't remember what she said exactly, but I think her whole point was that unless the Christian band says something extremely ignorant, such as the example she used about "Jews killing Jesus," she doesn't have a problem with praying at shows because if you're watching a Christian band it's not so far out there to expect prayer. But if they crossed that line, then she would have a problem. She wasn't expressing her own view on how she thinks the Jews killed Jesus. Are you serious?

Exactly!

[ghostyouare]

It matters in the sense that you are posting about how "the jews killed jesus" when that's a completely unfounded statement. At the least, it's quite offensive. I appreciate your attempt to argue against discrimination, but the example you used was, while probably unintentional, in poor taste.
How can it be offensive if its true?

[And Hours Pass]

Of course it was offensive, because I'm pretty sure she was giving an example of something ignorant and intolerant that some people say. I can't remember what she said exactly, but I think her whole point was that unless the Christian band says something extremely ignorant, such as the example she used about "Jews killing Jesus," she doesn't have a problem with praying at shows because if you're watching a Christian band it's not so far out there to expect prayer. But if they crossed that line, then she would have a problem. She wasn't expressing her own view on how she thinks the Jews killed Jesus. Are you serious?

Exactly!

My apologies. For a second I really thought you held that view. I just relocated to the midwest from the east coast and I can't begin to tell you how many people have said "jews killed jesus," "jews have horns," or (and this literally happened two nights ago) "there are some people going out to dinner but the place is a bit expensive... I know you're jewish... should we count you out?" And they were all said in complete sincerity. I guess the shock of all of that just had me assuming this was another instance of the same thing.

[MyNameIsRoss]

I find it disrespectful to christians. It's actually hilarious as an atheist. "Oh, so you worship the god of meaningless acts? Cool"

:-d

[zion the lion]

My apologies. For a second I really thought you held that view. I just relocated to the midwest from the east coast and I can't begin to tell you how many people have said "jews killed jesus," "jews have horns," or (and this literally happened two nights ago) "there are some people going out to dinner but the place is a bit expensive... I know you're jewish... should we count you out?" And they were all said in complete sincerity. I guess the shock of all of that just had me assuming this was another instance of the same thing.

I went to Israel and never saw any horns.

[katyara]

Well it obviously is, because anything I don't agree with (even optional activities) is automatically oppressive and discriminatory.
this.

[And Hours Pass]

I went to Israel and never saw any horns.
Ha, that's good to hear. I had a 9 year old look at me funny, then look at her mom, and say "wait, so he's jewish and doesn't have horns?" It was horrible. Funny aspect to the story - the 9 year old was the girl I was dating's sister.

[eriatarka24]

It's kind of sad that people get mad at something like this. Get the fuck over it and move on. People are different from you, so what? If a band prays, they pray. Big deal.

omg they're praying I hate it!!!!1111 go home.

[Lost In A Name]

Is praying on stage intolerant? I don't think so. Can it make things a little uncomfortable for people who don't believe in god or aren't religious? Probably. I don't personally believe in religion, but I think it is more intolerant to say "you can't" pray then it is to pray on stage.

If they were preaching "homosexuality is a sin" or "non-believers are going to hell", I would consider those statements of intolerance.

I would hope that if I were at a concert, a band wouldn't stop in the middle of the show and ask the audience to join them in prayer, because I don't believe in religion, and it may make things a little uncomfortable for the moment. However, I'd also get over it because "to each their own" and it would be intolerant of me to tell them not to. This is just my opinion though. - I've yet to ever see a show where this has happened

[bjam12]

like i said, it depends on context. Praying doesn't count, but I remember there was a certain Christian band from here that once had the audience "pray for all the sinners in the crowd." I consider that to be intolerant since they weren't playing a Christian show. I don't think Underoath praying at a show is, however.

Christians are sinners too. I doubt they were singling out only non-believers. But, I wasn't there so I can't say for sure, of course.

[HelpMeSleep]

I'm completely irreligious, but I think if a band wants to pray during their show, they should be able to, just like anyone else should be able to choose not to participate in it. common sense. it's definitely not intolerant and it's definitely not bigotry.

[SincerelyMe]

I don't see a problem with this. If a band wants to pray during a show (without imposing their views on others), they should be able to. It's not as if they're forcing everyone to join them.

[doppelganger]

i once talked with this guy and he said he went to a mudvayne concert. and during the set, the lead singer jacked off. is that offensive? hm

[doppelganger]

oh p.s. there is no such thing as a 'christian' band. i could rant about this, but i wont. unless someone challenges me. rawr

[PoweredbyPJ]

oh p.s. there is no such thing as a 'christian' band. i could rant about this, but i wont. unless someone challenges me. rawr

im actually pretty curious to hear youre reasoning for that :)

you can keep it concise if you want though :p

[Matthew Tsai]

i once talked with this guy and he said he went to a mudvayne concert. and during the set, the lead singer jacked off. is that offensive? hm

Ha! Yeah, that's intolerant towards semen.

[doppelganger]

im actually pretty curious to hear youre reasoning for that :)

you can keep it concise if you want though :p
well i think classifying music as christian is pretty stupid. worship or praise, sure, but not "christian"

people classify bands as christian by either
a. the members stating they are "christian"
b. the lyrics are "christian"

reason 'a' is completely stupid. it doesnt matter if a member(s) is christian. if you get nothing from the lyrics, then it doesnt matter if a band is 'christian.' its not like the band member is your spiritual mentor or something.
reason 'b' is inconsistent. several bands can label themselves as 'christian' but not have lyrics reflecting religious themes. and let's say the lyrics do, the listeners stance on the lyrics will still be inconsistent. there will be people that dont think of anything christian when they listen to a "christian" band's songs. and what would i classify thrice's vheissu or sufjan steven's seven swans or the mountain goats' the life of the world to come? all of these albums have religious themes yet they don't classify themselves as 'christian' bands.

to put it simply, labeling a band as "christian" doesnt make sense to me. you should be able to personally get something "christian" out of songs, even if they aren't from a "christian" band. the christian label doesnt make sense to me. can an instrumental band be christian? it's a false label.

[Matthew Tsai]

yeah no such thing as a christian band. the concept of a band doesn't have its own mind and thus can't be a "christian"

[GeeBee]

oh p.s. there is no such thing as a 'christian' band. i could rant about this, but i wont. unless someone challenges me. rawr

I've SEEN Fleet Foxes live, buddy, and ALL of them looked like Jesus to me. Christian band.

[doppelganger]

I've SEEN Fleet Foxes live, buddy, and ALL of them looked like Jesus to me. Christian band.
cant forget about iron and wine!
http://independancas.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/iron-and-wine.jpg

[Josh Weinstein]

Look at these friggin' Christians!!!!!!!!!!!!! M-(

MtxxGnOoctw

[theguy77]

If you go to a Christian rock concert you should expect Christian themes, it would be like going to Krispy Kreme and being upset that they have donuts

this is the only answer.

[theguy77]

I've SEEN Fleet Foxes live, buddy, and ALL of them looked like Jesus to me. Christian band.

okay nevermind this guy gets extra points for thinking outside the box. :-d

[theguy77]

but seriously, sufjan stevens. he can sing about god and jesus and make songs named "abraham" and dress up like a butterfly and argue that dinosaurs never existed all the fuck he wants because it never ceases to be incredible.

[ninetyFhOURs]

They.. actually should do both of those things, moron.

Britain has Darwin on one of its notes. The US has 'in god we trust'.

Hrmm... Explains why Britain is better.
while Darwin was a believer of nothing, he explicitly stated that his theory did not automatically eliminate supernatural or godly entities. So, from the man himself, Darwinian evolution and religion(s) can coincide.

[ninetyFhOURs]

Ha! Yeah, that's intolerant towards semen.

SEAmen, you mean

[ninetyFhOURs]

Hey, hey guys, hey listen: Lets build a bridge. And get over it.

I saw this band called Japandroids once. The lead singer said that he guarenteed most people in the room would get laid that night.
Turned out, he was discriminative towards me. AND he was very agnostic. Crazy, I know.

[Matthew Tsai]

Hey, hey guys, hey listen: Lets build a bridge. And get over it.

I saw this band called Japandroids once. The lead singer said that he guarenteed most people in the room would get laid that night.
Turned out, he was discriminative towards me. AND he was very agnostic. Crazy, I know.

haha

[Until The Bombs]

It's not.

[Matthew Tsai]

It's not.

pretty much what we established a few pages back, but gracias for the input anyway

[Burn That Shit]

Don't see why you couldn't have simply discussed this in that thread.

[ninetyFhOURs]

Don't see why you couldn't have simply discussed this in that thread.

Because that would be discriminatory towards people who don't believe in Christianity, or people who don't want to talk about Christian bands and their praying. The kind gentleman that started this topic didn't want his very, very conservative, right-wingist (possibly Christian!) opinion to to offend anyone. He's just being an upstanding citizen by not voicing potentially offensive opinions in front of those who disagree with him. How very awful of him, had he posted in the original thread...

[ninetyFhOURs]

Look at these friggin' Christians!!!!!!!!!!!!! M-(

MtxxGnOoctw


woh! These guys have talent! And their Christian?! Their must be a typo on their myspace page, or something

[x togepi x]

. can an instrumental band be christian? it's a false label.

Yes, if they come from an ideological background that espouses Christianity through their performance. In fact, there used to be a very good Christian instrumental band from my city that did just that, writing instrumental music because they felt like language was too flawed to glorify god because it was a human construction.

It's a label that can apply just as much as anything else.

[theguy77]

Yes, if they come from an ideological background that espouses Christianity through their performance. In fact, there used to be a very good Christian instrumental band from my city that did just that, writing instrumental music because they felt like language was too flawed to glorify god because it was a human construction.

It's a label that can apply just as much as anything else.

probably makes them hypocrites if they followed the bible religiously though, eh?

[theguy77]

cant forget about iron and wine!
http://independancas.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/iron-and-wine.jpg

sam beam IS jesus and his word IS the gospel

[x togepi x]

probably makes them hypocrites if they followed the bible religiously though, eh?

They were postmodern christians, so no, not really.

[theguy77]

They were postmodern christians, so no, not really.

ah, okay. got a little information for me on postmodern christians? that might be along the lines of what i am. i feel so disillusioned with christianity as a whole but i cant bring myself to be comfortable with not believing in god.

[x togepi x]

ah, okay. got a little information for me on postmodern christians? that might be along the lines of what i am. i feel so disillusioned with christianity as a whole but i cant bring myself to be comfortable with not believing in god.

generally speaking they don't necessarily buy into the inerrant authority of biblical text (namely claiming that literalists are creating a false idol in the bible itself) as no text can be objectively read (since texts inherently involve indeterminability) so this band didn't want to their praise to be tied to specific interpretations.

it's an inherently subjective position on christianity that would probably piss off 95% of christians.

[theguy77]

generally speaking they don't necessarily buy into the inerrant authority of biblical text (namely claiming that literalists are creating a false idol in the bible itself) as no text can be objectively read (since texts inherently involve indeterminability) so this band didn't want to their praise to be tied to specific interpretations.

it's an inherently subjective position on christianity that would probably piss off 95% of christians.

ohh thats an interesting argument to make but i dont think its quite what i think. the bible just has so many flagrant prejudices and erroneous claims that i throw it out altogether. not to mention, it was written and printed by man, and is a documentary of sorts of the perspectives and stories/experiences of mankind, and not something that was just zapped into circulation by god himself. even more reason i dont subscribe to the bible is the fact that through so many years of translation and versioning there's no WAY its messages are anything CLOSE to the same explicit details that it originally held; how can the supposed "absolute truth" have so many different versions?

i also dont like the idea that christians imagine god like some sovereign king who is selfish and jealous enough to proclaim you cant believe in anything else; and who makes all these rules and banishes you to hell if you dont follow them; and most of all, who supposedly created us with the intention of making us intelligent enough to reason and analyze metaphysical things existentially but then tells us to subscribe to his every "word" or we'll be punished for questioning him. i dont agree with the idea of a hypocritical, angry, smiting god.

in addition to that i dont feel the need to use my religion as the sole reason to be righteous or to enjoy life -- it's a belief system i subscribe to (and in a very loosely connected way), not my only motivation or purpose here. in fact unlike most christians i feel that the idea that there is no god is just as valid, and the argument that every part of humanity is socially constructed is pretty legitimate to me even if i dont necessarily subscribe to that.

a lot of people tell me that these things, especially that last part, can only mean that i'm agnostic, which logically makes sense but emotionally my bias is still with the idea of god and the "holy spirit" (which i essentially interpret to be the same thing as a human conscience.)

what do you think about all that? im sorry to badger you with this, chris (oh snap i used your real name!), but youve always got great insight, especially on largely philosophical subjects like religion.

[doppelganger]

Yes, if they come from an ideological background that espouses Christianity through their performance. In fact, there used to be a very good Christian instrumental band from my city that did just that, writing instrumental music because they felt like language was too flawed to glorify god because it was a human construction.

It's a label that can apply just as much as anything else.
yea ive heard of a christian instrumental band. one called theHOPEsymphony, but personally, im more about "it doesnt really matter if a band is 'christian' it matters what you personally get out of the band." thats why i dont really like the label because it should be a personal choice as to whether a band's songs can influence you in a christian manner instead of whether a band labels themselves as such. i understand your view.

[x togepi x]

yea ive heard of a christian instrumental band. one called theHOPEsymphony, but personally, im more about "it doesnt really matter if a band is 'christian' it matters what you personally get out of the band." thats why i dont really like the label because it should be a personal choice as to whether a band's songs can influence you in a christian manner instead of whether a band labels themselves as such. i understand your view.

Following this logic, no label you can apply to a band fits because it would be personal choice as to whether a band's songs can influence you in the manner of said label or not.

[xJesusFreakx]

i also dont like the idea that christians imagine god like some sovereign king who is selfish and jealous enough to proclaim you cant believe in anything else; and who makes all these rules and banishes you to hell if you dont follow them; and most of all, who supposedly created us with the intention of making us intelligent enough to reason and analyze metaphysical things existentially but then tells us to subscribe to his every "word" or we'll be punished for questioning him. i dont agree with the idea of a hypocritical, angry, smiting god.

I like you way too much to go into some kind of hardcore "preach mode," lol, but that's not really how the G-d of Scripture works, or at least not how I believe He works. I can elaborate on my beliefs if you'd like.

[theguy77]

I like you way too much to go into some kind of hardcore "preach mode," lol, but that's not really how the G-d of Scripture works, or at least not how I believe He works. I can elaborate on my beliefs if you'd like.

sure, man! i definitely enjoy hearing the opinions of others, im just usually pretty wary of discussing my views with christians because a lot of them are either very judgmental of my looser, more liberal views of the religion, or otherwise it makes them uncomfortable considering the fact that i am a fan of discussion and i'll explain a point that goes against what they believe.

[xJesusFreakx]

sure, man! i definitely enjoy hearing the opinions of others, im just usually pretty wary of discussing my views with christians because a lot of them are either very judgmental of my looser, more liberal views of the religion, or otherwise it makes them uncomfortable considering the fact that i am a fan of discussion and i'll explain a point that goes against what they believe.

Well, I'm definitely more liberal than most of the conservative Christians I talk to and see, but I'm also still a very "conservative Christian" in the grand scheme of things, which makes me much more conservative than most other people I talk to, so I'm kind of used to disagreeing a lot. :-d As long as you don't attack me for my beliefs, I won't attack you for yours.

I think the main issue here is the problem of hell, which some people (Christians included) tend to view as a place of punishment for those foolish enough to not conform to some arbitrary set of rules established by G-d. I view it more as just the logical alternative to heaven.

I believe that G-d created mankind with the "breath (or spirit) of life," which I see as, essentially, G-d. (My view of G-d is both abstract and personal; He is an actual entity with thoughts, etc., but the essence of Him can also be seen as a force.) All life is an extension of G-d, and all living things are filled with some degree of G-d. What is G-d? Among other things, G-d is love. I tend to take this pretty literally, with love, life, and G-d all being essentially the same "thing."

Sin is the absence of G-d/life/love. I base my view of this relationship at least in part off what we know scientifically about heat and light. I'm not sure if you've heard this explanation before or not, but it basically says that, much like cold and darkness, sin is not actually a measurable "thing" but rather a lack of something, that something being G-d.

What, then, is hell? Well, we have free will. (I'm sure you knew that two-word phrase was coming eventually, lol.) For one reason or another, we have the ability to choose life with G-d or life apart from Him. We can either put Him first and live in love, or we can reject His love for our own form of life. Like a true gentleman, G-d will step back and let us go in our own ways if that's what we desire. However, as I mentioned above, G-d is the source of all life, so we can't be sustained apart from Him. As a result, we essentially suffocate and die, much like a fish out of water. (I also believe that our souls cannot completely cease to exist and "die," though, which is why hell is eternal. We basically just enter an eternal suffocation.)

This, then, is why hell is an eternal place of torment. I don't believe that G-d sat down and thought, "Hey, I think I should create a really unpleasant place of everlasting torment so that I can banish those dirty, misbehaving humans there." Rather, it's just the logical alternative to life with Him.

I didn't answer everything you mentioned in that paragraph, and I think I've also opened up room for a slew of other issues, but hopefully this, if nothing else, is a good starting point for understanding my beliefs.

[Skillen]

Well as we some how ended up on the subject of christianity. To the person above us, who essentially said god is love and the giver of life, possibly the vaguest answer ever. I want to ask you a question, do you believe Jesus is the son of god and not just a story about an affair that got out of hand.

Another question, what makes you so certain christianity is right and all other religions are wrong? Not to mention , if god made man in his own image, why did he start with dinasaurs. Makes even less sense, and lets not get on to anything else the bible says.

[five inch taint]

What if the band praying on stage was Deicide?

[theguy77]

Well, I'm definitely more liberal than most of the conservative Christians I talk to and see, but I'm also still a very "conservative Christian" in the grand scheme of things, which makes me much more conservative than most other people I talk to, so I'm kind of used to disagreeing a lot. :-d As long as you don't attack me for my beliefs, I won't attack you for yours.

I think the main issue here is the problem of hell, which some people (Christians included) tend to view as a place of punishment for those foolish enough to not conform to some arbitrary set of rules established by G-d. I view it more as just the logical alternative to heaven.

I believe that G-d created mankind with the "breath (or spirit) of life," which I see as, essentially, G-d. (My view of G-d is both abstract and personal; He is an actual entity with thoughts, etc., but the essence of Him can also be seen as a force.) All life is an extension of G-d, and all living things are filled with some degree of G-d. What is G-d? Among other things, G-d is love. I tend to take this pretty literally, with love, life, and G-d all being essentially the same "thing."

Sin is the absence of G-d/life/love. I base my view of this relationship at least in part off what we know scientifically about heat and light. I'm not sure if you've heard this explanation before or not, but it basically says that, much like cold and darkness, sin is not actually a measurable "thing" but rather a lack of something, that something being G-d.

What, then, is hell? Well, we have free will. (I'm sure you knew that two-word phrase was coming eventually, lol.) For one reason or another, we have the ability to choose life with G-d or life apart from Him. We can either put Him first and live in love, or we can reject His love for our own form of life. Like a true gentleman, G-d will step back and let us go in our own ways if that's what we desire. However, as I mentioned above, G-d is the source of all life, so we can't be sustained apart from Him. As a result, we essentially suffocate and die, much like a fish out of water. (I also believe that our souls cannot completely cease to exist and "die," though, which is why hell is eternal. We basically just enter an eternal suffocation.)

This, then, is why hell is an eternal place of torment. I don't believe that G-d sat down and thought, "Hey, I think I should create a really unpleasant place of everlasting torment so that I can banish those dirty, misbehaving humans there." Rather, it's just the logical alternative to life with Him.

I didn't answer everything you mentioned in that paragraph, and I think I've also opened up room for a slew of other issues, but hopefully this, if nothing else, is a good starting point for understanding my beliefs.

hmm thats really interesting in a lot of ways, sort of uses the concept of God to embody everything that is metaphysical as opposed to just being the source of such intangible things. i also like how you described the concept of sin, very well articulated in few words and i completely understand what you mean. the snag in this that i see, though, is that when someone kills someone else, choosing against the concept of "love" and God's will, there's nothing to imply that the rest of their life goes on any differently. if you're being figurative of the concept of "suffocating", guilt is a factor in most cases but not all (sociopaths? maybe if the murder felt justified to that person?) and it seems regardless of either choice someone makes, there's no real hindrance of them continuing on to lead a healthy life. like, ideologically your perspective is interesting but pragmatically i fail to grasp how it applies to reality. why do good people die and why dont bad people die instantly, is the simple question i think im trying to ask.

[Bruised26]

I am a Christian. But if I attend a non-worship concert such as Underoath or Mae, and they pray- it just makes everything awkaward and slightly political. It's cool to say "hey we do this all for our savior" or something like that, but praying is too much! It's also an exclusive ritual and should only be done in exclusively religious events. Non religious people will feel very uncomfortable

[bernie16wb]

Why is everyone so afraid of feeling uncomfortable or making others uncomfortable? It's not like praying is insulting anyone or hurts or something. I don't think an extended prayer session would be very enjoyable for anyone who paid to see a concert but if someone wanted to toss out an "Our Father" or "Hail Mary" I don't think it would take too much away from anyone. If you don't agree with the view, ignore it, drink a beer to atheism or something.

[Jaimehere]

What if the band praying on stage was Deicide?

obviously they're mocking the Believers but who cares? it's still their show and if you go to their show you should know what they sing about and what they could do to bash youe beliefs, so its still alright, it's not bigotry, oh and i love God and Deicide ftw

[five inch taint]

obviously they're mocking the Believers but who cares? it's still their show and if you go to their show you should know what they sing about and what they could do to bash youe beliefs, so its still alright, it's not bigotry, oh and i love God and Deicide ftw

Deicide is not a Christian friendly band. Everyone knows that. So if at a random show, the band started praying, it would be odd. I was a joke gone bad.

[Jaimehere]

Deicide is not a Christian friendly band. Everyone knows that. So if at a random show, the band started praying, it would be odd. I was a joke gone bad.

or by golly maybe we'd be surprised Benton converted into Christianity!(like that'll ever happen :lol:)

[cubine]

I am a Christian. But if I attend a non-worship concert such as Underoath or Mae, and they pray- it just makes everything awkaward and slightly political. It's cool to say "hey we do this all for our savior" or something like that, but praying is too much! It's also an exclusive ritual and should only be done in exclusively religious events. Non religious people will feel very uncomfortable

I guess if it's over the top it can be unnecessary.

The members of August Burns Red clearly pray before every show, they all kind of go huddle around Matt's kit for maybe 15 seconds with their heads bowed and then bam, first song. During the show they don't do any preaching or pushing, Jake just mentions stuff like they want to "keep things positive" and their music has a "message of hope" which seems totally acceptable.

[Matthew Tsai]

I am a Christian. But if I attend a non-worship concert such as Underoath or Mae, and they pray- it just makes everything awkaward and slightly political. It's cool to say "hey we do this all for our savior" or something like that, but praying is too much! It's also an exclusive ritual and should only be done in exclusively religious events. Non religious people will feel very uncomfortable

/lost faith in humanity

[Bruised26]

/lost faith in humanity

0_o

[x togepi x]

Why is everyone so afraid of feeling uncomfortable or making others uncomfortable? It's not like praying is insulting anyone or hurts or something. I don't think an extended prayer session would be very enjoyable for anyone who paid to see a concert but if someone wanted to toss out an "Our Father" or "Hail Mary" I don't think it would take too much away from anyone. If you don't agree with the view, ignore it, drink a beer to atheism or something.

except if, you know, their faith thinks homosexuality is a sin...then it's inherently insulting.

[bernie16wb]

except if, you know, their faith thinks homosexuality is a sin...then it's inherently insulting.
Then by that logic homosexuality could be considered insulting to someone of a certain faith.

We need to, as a society, stop worrying about hurting peoples feelings so much and focus more outrage at things that are actually stupid or genuinely insulting.

[x togepi x]

Then by that logic homosexuality could be considered insulting to someone of a certain faith.

We need to, as a society, stop worrying about hurting peoples feelings so much and focus more outrage at things that are actually stupid or genuinely insulting.

I don't care about offending homophobes. I have a problem offending people who can't change how they are. You can rationalize yourself out of believing that homosexuality is a sin. You can't really rationalize yourself out of being attracted to a specific gender.

I would say the fact that some Christians think it's right to tell homosexuals that they are wrong for their sexual preference is "actually stupid" and "genuinely insulting".

[bernie16wb]

I don't care about offending homophobes. I have a problem offending people who can't change how they are. You can rationalize yourself out of believing that homosexuality is a sin. You can't really rationalize yourself out of being attracted to a specific gender.

I would say the fact that some Christians think it's right to tell homosexuals that they are wrong for their sexual preference is "actually stupid" and "genuinely insulting".
Wait, what band told homosexuals that their sexual preference was a sin?

Don't associate everyone who thinks or believes a certain way with the most radical members of that train of thought.

I don't associate all people considered American Conservative in their views with Glenn Beck just like I don't think everyone who's considered more liberal has the same exact stand as Keith Olberman or someone.

Praying is not insulting anyone unless it's actually insulting someone in the prayer. (IE: Please lord get rid of gays, or something silly like that).

Also, why are people who don't agree with your views on homosexuality fair game to insult but apparently no one else is?

[x togepi x]

Wait, what band told homosexuals that their sexual preference was a sin?

I am fairly certain plenty of the more conservative Christian bands would say this. I know during the whole Underoath/Fat Mike thing, Fat Mike called Underoath homophobic and they never denied that charge.

Don't associate everyone who thinks or believes a certain way with the most radical members of that train of thought.

Point out where I did that. I've been saying SOME christians claim this, and I know plenty of GBLT people who are uncomfortable around conservative Christians because of their stance on homosexuality.

I don't associate all people considered American Conservative in their views with Glenn Beck just like I don't think everyone who's considered more liberal has the same exact stand as Keith Olberman or someone.

good for you, but the question inherent in this topic is "why would people be offended by praying", and the majority of people in this thread are posting like there's absolutely no reason why people shouldn't feel awkward around prayer at a show. I'm just explaining how it can be off putting. I'm not saying those bands can't do that. Plenty of bands i like say things that would piss off most christians.

Praying is not insulting anyone unless it's actually insulting someone in the prayer. (IE: Please lord get rid of gays, or something silly like that).

If you're praying to rid the world of sin, and you think homosexuality is a sin, then you're praying to rid the world of homosexuality, which is inherently insulting to homosexuals.

I'm guessing you're heterosexual, this would explain how you could write something like this off as "silly".

Also, why are people who don't agree with your views on homosexuality fair game to insult but apparently no one else is?

because the ability to live freely within their sexual preference is a basic human right.

[bernie16wb]

You make good points and I was partly playing devils advocate.

And I used "silly" as a synonym for "stupid" but I think the more common definition silly still works in the sentence.

[xJesusFreakx]

hmm thats really interesting in a lot of ways, sort of uses the concept of God to embody everything that is metaphysical as opposed to just being the source of such intangible things. i also like how you described the concept of sin, very well articulated in few words and i completely understand what you mean. the snag in this that i see, though, is that when someone kills someone else, choosing against the concept of "love" and God's will, there's nothing to imply that the rest of their life goes on any differently. if you're being figurative of the concept of "suffocating", guilt is a factor in most cases but not all (sociopaths? maybe if the murder felt justified to that person?) and it seems regardless of either choice someone makes, there's no real hindrance of them continuing on to lead a healthy life. like, ideologically your perspective is interesting but pragmatically i fail to grasp how it applies to reality. why do good people die and why dont bad people die instantly, is the simple question i think im trying to ask.

Good question. I'm not answering it yet. (Yeah, I know, you probably got really excited when you saw I had quoted this.) I'm just posting this to remind myself to come back at the end of this week (probably Friday).

[Tead42]

I don't care about offending homophobes. I have a problem offending people who can't change how they are. You can rationalize yourself out of believing that homosexuality is a sin. You can't really rationalize yourself out of being attracted to a specific gender.

I would say the fact that some Christians think it's right to tell homosexuals that they are wrong for their sexual preference is "actually stupid" and "genuinely insulting".
One of the greatest statements I've read on these forums.

[Jennurna Gray]

The people in the band have rights to do what they please. I can pray in public, so can they. If you don't want to see them pray, then don't go to their show. Easy as that.

[Jennurna Gray]

I don't care about offending homophobes. I have a problem offending people who can't change how they are. You can rationalize yourself out of believing that homosexuality is a sin. You can't really rationalize yourself out of being attracted to a specific gender.

I would say the fact that some Christians think it's right to tell homosexuals that they are wrong for their sexual preference is "actually stupid" and "genuinely insulting".
I agree. That is dumb.
Christianity revolves around "loving one another', not 'loving one another unless the don't meet your standards'.
I see it as whatever floats your boat, and I am Christian.
I think the absolute dumbest thing is when homosexuals aren't allowed into churches due to their sexual orientation. If homosexuality is wrong, the church is a place for the sinners, so why keep them out?
People read the Bible, and then contradict it.

[Josh Weinstein]

The people in the band have rights to do what they please. I can pray in public, so can they. If you don't want to see them pray, then don't go to their show. Easy as that.

but what if I reeeaaalllly like slam dancing and punching the floor to their breakdowns.

[Jennurna Gray]

but what if I reeeaaalllly like slam dancing and punching the floor to their breakdowns.
I will hold your hand and walk with you like a small child.
Deal with the prayers or don't go.

[bernie16wb]

The bottom line I was getting at is that if you're offended by a band praying so much that it ruins an entire show for you then there are either two things we can conclude. One, you don't like that band very much and should probably not attend their concerts anymore. Two, you don't deal with others very well and should probably remain in your room.

Unless we go into hypotheticals like "but what if half the show is praying" or "what if they aren't accepting of of a certain group in their prayers" then prayer at a show is something that you might not like but should either learn to deal with or not go to that artists shows.

[x togepi x]

You make good points and I was partly playing devils advocate.

And I used "silly" as a synonym for "stupid" but I think the more common definition silly still works in the sentence.

Yeah, I just think the premise of the thread is so self-contradictory it's ridiculous.

[absolution]

Wonder if it is really the "praying" that is the issue and not the "who you are praying to"
my initial sense is that Mos Def praising Allah might not offend as much as Underoath praising the Christian God
(but isn't it all Abrahamic anyway?)

[atarirockstar]

So it's wrong if praying makes somebody feel uncomfortable, but it's ok for the band to talk/sing about alcohol even if it makes some people feel uncomfortable? Personally, I don't drink and I have many personal reasons why (and I don't care if you drink; that's not what this is about). But I go to shows where I know there's going to be booze and that it may be glorified by the band. Maybe it'll make me feel a little uncomfortable at times, but I deal with it because I knew that when I went to the show this would happen. As many others have said, I go to shows for the music and to have a good time, not to get offended because I don't share a certain belief with somebody.

Explain how this is different than the praying band making that kid feel uncomfortable and get all butt hurt.

[Derka Derka]

So it's wrong if praying makes somebody feel uncomfortable, but it's ok for the band to talk/sing about alcohol even if it makes some people feel uncomfortable? Personally, I don't drink and I have many personal reasons why (and I don't care if you drink; that's not what this is about). But I go to shows where I know there's going to be booze and that it may be glorified by the band. Maybe it'll make me feel a little uncomfortable at times, but I deal with it because I knew that when I went to the show this would happen. As many others have said, I go to shows for the music and to have a good time, not to get offended because I don't share a certain belief with somebody.

Explain how this is different than the praying band making that kid feel uncomfortable and get all butt hurt.

it's not any different, people just get pissy over anything involving religion.

[xJesusFreakx]

hmm thats really interesting in a lot of ways, sort of uses the concept of God to embody everything that is metaphysical as opposed to just being the source of such intangible things. i also like how you described the concept of sin, very well articulated in few words and i completely understand what you mean. the snag in this that i see, though, is that when someone kills someone else, choosing against the concept of "love" and God's will, there's nothing to imply that the rest of their life goes on any differently. if you're being figurative of the concept of "suffocating", guilt is a factor in most cases but not all (sociopaths? maybe if the murder felt justified to that person?) and it seems regardless of either choice someone makes, there's no real hindrance of them continuing on to lead a healthy life. like, ideologically your perspective is interesting but pragmatically i fail to grasp how it applies to reality. why do good people die and why dont bad people die instantly, is the simple question i think im trying to ask.

One's soul can't "die," which I think I mentioned when explaining why hell would be eternal. The "death" I was referring to is more so the spiritual sense of the word; it's common to refer to hell as "spiritual death." Seems like Christianity uses the word "death" for a few things, though, so I guess that's a bit confusing.

Anyways, G-d is present in this world, so it's not possible to really be completely separated from Him here. For as long as we physically live on earth, we're surrounded by G-d. It's not until we physically die that the spiritual life or death becomes significant. If we have a heart that yearns for the L-rd and are spiritually in a relationship with Him, He accepts us into His presence in heaven, where the life is finally made complete. If not, He doesn't drag us in, but then, once completely out of His presence, we enter "spiritual death"/hell.

Huh, I hope I answered your question. If not, sorry? lol. Just try explaining your issue better, and maybe I'll answer it better. Also, sorry it took as long as it did, but most of the time when I'm on the site, it's to unwind from school, not to have this kind of discussion. (You probably couldn't tell, though, seeing how often Christianity comes up with me in the Brand New thread and elsewhere. :p)

[BPerone201]

I think it's more of a waste of time.

[inevitable]

One's soul can't "die," which I think I mentioned when explaining why hell would be eternal. The "death" I was referring to is more so the spiritual sense of the word; it's common to refer to hell as "spiritual death." Seems like Christianity uses the word "death" for a few things, though, so I guess that's a bit confusing.

Anyways, G-d is present in this world, so it's not possible to really be completely separated from Him here. For as long as we physically live on earth, we're surrounded by G-d. It's not until we physically die that the spiritual life or death becomes significant. If we have a heart that yearns for the L-rd and are spiritually in a relationship with Him, He accepts us into His presence in heaven, where the life is finally made complete. If not, He doesn't drag us in, but then, once completely out of His presence, we enter "spiritual death"/hell.

Huh, I hope I answered your question. If not, sorry? lol. Just try explaining your issue better, and maybe I'll answer it better. Also, sorry it took as long as it did, but most of the time when I'm on the site, it's to unwind from school, not to have this kind of discussion. (You probably couldn't tell, though, seeing how often Christianity comes up with me in the Brand New thread and elsewhere. :p)

I think a better answer to the question asked would be the Bible makes it very clear that no one is good. Romans 3:23, Genesis 6:5.

[roisterboy]

This is a pretty cool thread. Interesting.

[Alaina <3]

If a band wants to pray during a show, let them pray. If you like them enough, you wouldn't care in the first place.

[Josh Weinstein]

If a band wants to pray during a show, let them pray. If you like them enough, you wouldn't care in the first place.

but... what if they pray to a different god than you do?

[Deadbolt23]

The intolerance isn't the band praying. The intolerance is you sayin the band can't pray while you're there.

[five inch taint]

I guess it is still cool to hate religion?

[caveBEAR]

It annoys me when bands try to get me to sign up for PETA more than bands trying to sign me up for God.

[cubine]

^^^

Yes.

[JoeJealousy]

The intolerance isn't the band praying. The intolerance is you sayin the band can't pray while you're there.

this is proof that the folks across the pond are definitely more intelligent.

[x togepi x]

The intolerance isn't the band praying. The intolerance is you sayin the band can't pray while you're there.

gotta love pointless blanket statements like this one.

so if a white power christian group had a band and prayed to god for white power that wouldn't be intolerant?

[Deadbolt23]

gotta love pointless blanket statements like this one.

so if a white power christian group had a band and prayed to god for white power that wouldn't be intolerant?

Yes, but that's not really what we're talking about. The point is people are saying that the band shouldn't pray in front of them. Even if you're not religious, you've got to understand that that's a bit messed up.

Put a little less time into trying to catch me out.

[x togepi x]

Yes, but that's not really what we're talking about. The point is people are saying that the band shouldn't pray in front of them. Even if you're not religious, you've got to understand that that's a bit messed up.

Put a little less time into trying to catch me out.

The point of this thread is people condemning people for behavior that they themselves engage in.

I'm not religious, that's why I can easily say you can't make a blanket statement like this. It depends on what they're praying for.

[caveBEAR]

gotta love pointless blanket statements like this one.

so if a white power christian group had a band and prayed to god for white power that wouldn't be intolerant?

I think you misunderstood his quote, because he was pretty on the mark, and your response doesn't really make any sense in connection to his comment.

The point of this thread is people condemning people for behavior that they themselves engage in.

I'm not religious, that's why I can easily say you can't make a blanket statement like this. It depends on what they're praying for.

How is the point of this thread 'condemning people for behavior that they themselves engage in'? The first post was 'Some kids in the music forum think a band praying during a show is "intolerance" and "bigotry" towards the audience. From the onset of this thread, the popular opinion seems to be that the kids in the music forum are idiots, and most posts in here haven't been condemning towards the band praying....so I really don't see where your comments are coming from.

[EchoPark]

It's quite amazing and also comforting to see the opinions of people who claim they are so open minded and tolerant, be quite the opposite when it comes to religious belief.

Where is your accepting nature? Have you put it on the backburner? Do young christians not have the right to express their love and admonition for their God just as you so vehemently defend all you believe.

[x togepi x]

I think you misunderstood his quote, because he was pretty on the mark, and your response doesn't really make any sense in connection to his comment.

You should explain this then because I see nothing wrong with me saying you can't make a blanket statement in this case like basically everyone here is doing. Prayer=/= good. Sometimes it is. Sometimes people are praying for terrible, terrible things.

He's trying to spin it as if all Christian bands pray for the same things, when they don't. I have personally seen bands pray against "sluts who get abortions" or gay people. I wouldn't consider that tolerant. He's trying to pretend like that shit doesn't happen but it does.

How is the point of this thread 'condemning people for behavior that they themselves engage in'? The first post was 'Some kids in the music forum think a band praying during a show is "intolerance" and "bigotry" towards the audience. From the onset of this thread, the popular opinion seems to be that the kids in the music forum are idiots, and most posts in here haven't been condemning towards the band praying....so I really don't see where your comments are coming from.

People in the music forum are hating on christians for not thinking like them by saying Christians shouldn't pray at shows.

People in this thread are hating on music forum members for not thinking by them by saying they're intolerant.

It's two sides of the same coin if you're not at least willing to accept the validity of the other side's view. To a non Christian, it can be very off putting to hear a band praying for you. Conversely, to a Christian, it can be pretty annoying to hear someone tell you that you can't pray.

If you're going to be truly tolerant, you're not going to be telling the other side they're idiots whether they're pro or anti prayer, unless they're saying something factually inaccurate.

[caveBEAR]

You should explain this then because I see nothing wrong with me saying you can't make a blanket statement in this case like basically everyone here is doing. Prayer=/= good. Sometimes it is. Sometimes people are praying for terrible, terrible things.

He's trying to spin it as if all Christian bands pray for the same things, when they don't. I have personally seen bands pray against "sluts who get abortions" or gay people. I wouldn't consider that tolerant. He's trying to pretend like that shit doesn't happen but it does.



People in the music forum are hating on christians for not thinking like them by saying Christians shouldn't pray at shows.

People in this thread are hating on music forum members for not thinking by them by saying they're intolerant.

It's two sides of the same coin if you're not at least willing to accept the validity of the other side's view. To a non Christian, it can be very off putting to hear a band praying for you. Conversely, to a Christian, it can be pretty annoying to hear someone tell you that you can't pray.

If you're going to be truly tolerant, you're not going to be telling the other side they're idiots whether they're pro or anti prayer, unless they're saying something factually inaccurate.

I pretty much agree, but I think you're looking a little too into his 'blanket statement'. From what I know, most prayers don't last very long and all aren't aimed at 'sluts who get abortions', so people who flip out at a show where a band prays for something nice and short about world peace or something are being (IMO) intolerant, and people who pray for intolerant things or shove the entire faith down their throats would be intolerant on the flip side.

On a side note, I also have NEVER been to a show where the band prayed. I think if you actually like the band, listen to their lyrics, know something about them, and you still didn't figure out they're a 'praying band', well, who's fault is that?

[Bruised26]

It's not your show, Its the bands show- if they want to pray, they will pray. Freedom of speech is alive and well..

[x togepi x]

I pretty much agree, but I think you're looking a little too into his 'blanket statement'. From what I know, most prayers don't last very long and all aren't aimed at 'sluts who get abortions', so people who flip out at a show where a band prays for something nice and short about world peace or something are being (IMO) intolerant, and people who pray for intolerant things or shove the entire faith down their throats would be intolerant on the flip side.

On a side note, I also have NEVER been to a show where the band prayed. I think if you actually like the band, listen to their lyrics, know something about them, and you still didn't figure out they're a 'praying band', well, who's fault is that?

We don't "pretty much agree" at the point when you're saying I'm looking too much into that statement. It's obvious, and the tone of essentially everyone "defending christianity" in this thread proves my point.

[Derka Derka]

We don't "pretty much agree" at the point when you're saying I'm looking too much into that statement. It's obvious, and the tone of essentially everyone "defending christianity" in this thread proves my point.

I think most people are defending free speech

[x togepi x]

I think most people are defending free speech

No you're not.

By saying "prayer at shows is intolerant", you're not talking about a free speech issue. Something that's free speech can still be intolerant.

[Derka Derka]

No you're not.

By saying "prayer at shows is intolerant", you're not talking about a free speech issue. Something that's free speech can still be intolerant.

Free Speech gives us the right to say whatever we want, if you think someone is saying something intolerant then you're being intolerant yourself

[x togepi x]

Free Speech gives us the right to say whatever we want,

You don't have free speech in a music venue. Nobody does. It's a private establishment.

Feel free to prove me wrong by going to one and insulting everyone that works there. I bet you will get your ass kicked out so fast.

if you think someone is saying something intolerant then you're being intolerant yourself

gotta love how this statement contradicts everything you say, and so what?

[Derka Derka]

You don't have free speech in a music venue. Nobody does. It's a private establishment.

Feel free to prove me wrong by going to one and insulting everyone that works there. I bet you will get your ass kicked out so fast.



gotta love how this statement contradicts everything you say, and so what?

Well if no one has free speech in a music venue then bitch to the venue owners about bands praying in there

And how does that statement contradict everything I say? You're saying that bands can't pray at concerts because it might offend someone because they believe something different but by saying that you're telling them to repress their own beliefs for the sake of your own. Which isn't very tolerant of you.

[x togepi x]

Well if no one has free speech in a music venue then bitch to the venue owners about bands praying in there

please read what i'm actually saying.

And how does that statement contradict everything I say?

You're arguing with someone who's outright said "why don't we look at the value of each side's opinion on the issue and accept that both sides have good points for why praying makes them feel a certain way at a show?"



You're saying that bands can't pray at concerts because it might offend someone because they believe something different but by saying that you're telling them to repress their own beliefs for the sake of your own. Which isn't very tolerant of you.

Show me where i've said that.

[Derka Derka]

please read what i'm actually saying.



You're arguing with someone who's outright said "why don't we look at the value of each side's opinion on the issue and accept that both sides have good points for why praying makes them feel a certain way at a show?"





Show me where i've said that.

I'm not arguing with you, I just expressed my beliefs on the issue, you made a rebuttal so I expanded on what I was originally saying and actually it seems like we kind of see eye to eye on certain aspects of the issue

[Stormtrooper]

A show is supposed to be entertaining. I am quite entertained by people putting all their eggs in an invisible basket!

[Theseventhson]

Intolerant? Meh. I can sympathize with both views.

Obnoxious? Completely.
This.

[Theseventhson]

Hey, hey guys, hey listen: Lets build a bridge. And get over it.

I saw this band called Japandroids once. The lead singer said that he guarenteed most people in the room would get laid that night.
Turned out, he was discriminative towards me. AND he was very agnostic. Crazy, I know.
Japandroids kickass.

[lonelysuperstar]

I haven't read most of this thread, but I think the intolerant ones are probably more those complaining about prayer at shows. They're being intolerant of the band's Christianity. If they want to pray at shows, that's their perogative. Just don't go if you don't like it.

[Tead42]

I'm not arguing with you, I just expressed my beliefs on the issue, you made a rebuttal so I expanded on what I was originally saying and actually it seems like we kind of see eye to eye on certain aspects of the issue
This is the internet, choose your words carefully.

[SunnyInPhilly]

You don't have free speech in a music venue. Nobody does. It's a private establishment.

Feel free to prove me wrong by going to one and insulting everyone that works there. I bet you will get your ass kicked out so fast.

By that definition, there's no free speech anywhere. Trying going to a cop anywhere in public and harassing them. See how long it takes you to get arrested.

[Bruised26]

Are people seriously still arguing and trying to defend themselves with this situation?! It's the INTERNET- even if you do win an argument, that means nothing for you in reality.
If some people support prayer in shows, ok. If people don't agree with prayer in shows, never go to another religious concert if it bothers you that much.
/thread

[Prestonxsmith]

I'm guessing by 'a band' you mean Underoath.
I went to see August Burns Red last night, and they played before Underoath, so I stuck around for them. They just came on stage and started playing. They didnt pray.

[schenksta]

What's the big fucking deal? They say "blah blah blah we love god" It takes 10 fucking seconds. Cover your ears or shut up about it

[lonelysuperstar]

I went to see August Burns Red last night, and they played before Underoath, so I stuck around for them. They just came on stage and started playing. They didnt pray.
Spencer generally has a "we're doing this for Jesus. we don't want to force this on anyone, but he's the reason we're here" kind of rant half way through. I've never seen them pray on stage, but I know they do before gigs (or maybe that was just for the DVD lol).

[Javs]

When bands do stuff like that I just step outside. Not because I don't want to hear it, it's just because I've heard it all my life. They can try and reach as many people as they can, but I didn't pay to see a testimonial and a prayer seminar, I paid to see them play their music. And a lot of those bands have christian themes in their songs.

I go to see them for their songs.
So it's not like I'm going to their show and ranting about how christian they are.

[Prestonxsmith]

Spencer generally has a "we're doing this for Jesus. we don't want to force this on anyone, but he's the reason we're here" kind of rant half way through. I've never seen them pray on stage, but I know they do before gigs (or maybe that was just for the DVD lol).
He did say that, but didnt seem to make a big deal of it.

[lonelysuperstar]

He did say that, but didnt seem to make a big deal of it.
Nah he doesn't, and most bands don't so this whole thread is a bit silly really. Some kids just get riled up over nothing. So you saw a band that had different religious beliefs to you? OMFG! What will you do?

[Deadbolt23]

When bands do stuff like that I just step outside. Not because I don't want to hear it, it's just because I've heard it all my life. They can try and reach as many people as they can, but I didn't pay to see a testimonial and a prayer seminar, I paid to see them play their music. And a lot of those bands have christian themes in their songs.

I go to see them for their songs.
So it's not like I'm going to their show and ranting about how christian they are.

And what is the difference between them singing to God in their songs, and them praying? Just because it's not as obvious?

[x togepi x]

By that definition, there's no free speech anywhere. Trying going to a cop anywhere in public and harassing them. See how long it takes you to get arrested.

If someone takes away your rights illegally, they can be sued and punished. For example, if you get arrested for your politics (and not doing anything illegal), you have the ability to sue the police. Your analogy is idiotic because you're breaking the law by harassing police. In my analogy, you aren't necessarily.

You can't, however, sue a club owner for kicking you out for saying whatever if they have the classic "we reserve the right to refuse service" sign that basically any business ever has.


Sorry, try learning what rights actually are and how they work before saying dumb things, though I've read what you've posted in the abortion thread so I doubt this will sink in.

[SunnyInPhilly]

If someone takes away your rights illegally, they can be sued and punished. For example, if you get arrested for your politics (and not doing anything illegal), you have the ability to sue the police. Your analogy is idiotic because you're breaking the law by harassing police. In my analogy, you aren't necessarily.

You can't, however, sue a club owner for kicking you out for saying whatever if they have the classic "we reserve the right to refuse service" sign that basically any business ever has.


Sorry, try learning what rights actually are and how they work before saying dumb things, though I've read what you've posted in the abortion thread so I doubt this will sink in.

You can sue whoever the hell you want. Whether you win, or your case even gets accepted is another case. Your original analogy of harassing the club staff was idiotic, so of course when I drew a direct comparison, it was idiotic. That was the piont. To illustrate how stupid your analogy was. Thank you for agreeing.

[x togepi x]

You can sue whoever the hell you want.

In the case I'm talking about the court case would go like this:

Judge: So...this place you got kicked out of, was it a private business?
Plaintiff: Yeah but...
Judge: case dismissed.


Whether you win, or your case even gets accepted is another case. Your original analogy of harassing the club staff was idiotic, so of course when I drew a direct comparison, it was idiotic. That was the piont. To illustrate how stupid your analogy was. Thank you for agreeing.

The fact that you think you pulled something show how minuscule your intellect is.

[SunnyInPhilly]

In the case I'm talking about the court case would go like this:

Judge: So...this place you got kicked out of, was it a private business?
Plaintiff: Yeah but...
Judge: case dismissed.




The fact that you think you pulled something show how minuscule your intellect is.

Great point. Most judges would definitely side with someone who was harassing a cop for absolutely no reason. This is obviouisly going nowhere. Have a good night.

[x togepi x]

Great point. Most judges would definitely side with someone who was harassing a cop for absolutely no reason. This is obviouisly going nowhere. Have a good night.

"harassing a cop" is against the law. telling a club owner to fuck off and mocking the shit out of them, however is not.

the fact that you don't see the difference proves how idiotic you are.

[SunnyInPhilly]

"harassing a cop" is against the law. telling a club owner to fuck off and mocking the shit out of them, however is not.

the fact that you don't see the difference proves how idiotic you are.

Harassing anyone is against the law, dipshit. Not just cops. Going up to staff at a concert and swearing at and insulting them for absolutely no reason is harassment. Your example was stupid. Time to shut up and let this die. You're only making yourself look worse.

[jessicalynn-xx]

I've been to many Christian bands' shows and I've never seen a band actually pray during a concert. Even at shows in churches. Not once. I think this thread is kind of an exaggeration.

[HometownHero]

"harassing a cop" is against the law. telling a club owner to fuck off and mocking the shit out of them, however is not.

the fact that you don't see the difference proves how idiotic you are.
Any type of harassment is kind of against the law. Especially if its the owner of an establishment that you want to stay in.

[HometownHero]

What's the big fucking deal? They say "blah blah blah we love god" It takes 10 fucking seconds. Cover your ears or shut up about it
Saying they love God or they are there for God is totally separate from prayer

[schenksta]

Saying they love God or they are there for God is totally separate from prayer

That's all Christian bands ever do at shows.

[HometownHero]

That's all Christian bands ever do at shows.
There's nothing to say to this other then you are wrong.

[schenksta]

There's nothing to say to this other then you are wrong.

I've seen my fair share of Christian bands (Underoath a few times, TDWP a few times, etc.) and I have never seen them "pray" at a show. They will express their beliefs in religion and thank god for being healthy and all that shit, and it takes about 30 seconds.

[HometownHero]

I've seen my fair share of Christian bands (Underoath a few times, TDWP a few times, etc.) and I have never seen them "pray" at a show. They will express their beliefs in religion and thank god for being healthy and all that shit, and it takes about 30 seconds.
Go to more shows. Simple solution. Then you will see what everyone is talking about

[x togepi x]

Any type of harassment is kind of against the law. Especially if its the owner of an establishment that you want to stay in.

I didn't say "harassment", he did. Telling someone to fuck off isn't harassment, nor is it against the law.

I don't see why you kids keep trying to throw out "gotcha" points instead of actually arguing my position. probably because you can't.

[HometownHero]

I didn't say "harassment", he did. Telling someone to fuck off isn't harassment, nor is it against the law.

I don't see why you kids keep trying to throw out "gotcha" points instead of actually arguing my position. probably because you can't.

I don't honestly know what the point was. I didn't read the full argument. Enlighten me?

[x togepi x]

I don't honestly know what the point was. I didn't read the full argument. Enlighten me?

ah, okay.

People are trying to make this issue (praying at shows) a free speech issue. It's not. My reasoning is that you don't truly have free speech in privately owned places. My example, you can insult someone on public property and merely insulting them (as long as you don't take it to harassment or whatever) is not legal grounds to have you removed. On the other hand, if you're in a club, you can technically be removed for whatever reason (assuming the place has the classic, we refuse the right to refuse service sign which they probably do). So, if you go into a club and insult a club owner, they could be like "alright, you're gone." and kick you out.

the person i'm arguing with thinks that, because harassing a cop is illegal, that i'm saying you don't have free speech anywhere, when in reality, he doesn't understand how free speech works (since harassment is illegal and not merely criticism).

[HometownHero]

ah, okay.

People are trying to make this issue (praying at shows) a free speech issue. It's not. My reasoning is that you don't truly have free speech in privately owned places. My example, you can insult someone on public property and merely insulting them (as long as you don't take it to harassment or whatever) is not legal grounds to have you removed. On the other hand, if you're in a club, you can technically be removed for whatever reason (assuming the place has the classic, we refuse the right to refuse service sign which they probably do). So, if you go into a club and insult a club owner, they could be like "alright, you're gone." and kick you out.

the person i'm arguing with thinks that, because harassing a cop is illegal, that i'm saying you don't have free speech anywhere, when in reality, he doesn't understand how free speech works (since harassment is illegal and not merely criticism).
Well then I agree with you. And who ever you are arguing with is kind of a dumb ass

[Matthew Tsai]

hahahahaha thinking about this thread made me chuckle. "Intolerance" cause they're praying? Oh, the humanity.

http://media.rd.com/rd/images/rdc/mag0709/men-women-laugh-out-loud-01-af.jpg

[x togepi x]

the fact that people listen to and enjoy bands that pray on stage is hilarious.

god doesn't give a fuck about your terrible rock show.