I'm tired of arguing about the definition of emo in every thread so let's do it here

[x togepi x]

I'm calling anyone out. let's have a debate and settle this once and for all.

we'll set up some ground rules like who wants to provide the first definition, when we start to have the discussion and whatever, so it isn't just like a normal thread argument.

but this is seriously weak. I want to be talking about orchid instead of this. on the other hand, I really don't want to see another panic! at the disco thread.

after this, we can come up with our list of bands, and hopefully the forum will police itself, since we don't have mods.

[Alt_fate83]

Personally i think this gonna be a very hard debate to come up with an agreement on. Emo im my opinion is one of the most misunderstood genres of music! there is a very thin line separating emo from the other indie rock, punkpop genres..

but before we agree on defintions of emo lets look at examples..

togepi, since you supposedly "know your music" , how bout you post your list of emo bands and then we can debate which ones are or arent emo and if any should be added..

[x togepi x]

Emo im my opinion is one of the most misunderstood genres of music! there is a very thin line separating emo from the other indie rock, punkpop genres..
I don't see how emo can at all be construed to be indie rock/pop punk. it isn't a punk pop genre. It's a subset of hardcore music.

What you're saying is a thin line is what's commonly known as Midwest Emo...which is really just a group of indie bands like Christie Front Drive that got lumped into the emo genre because of Sunny Day Real Estate's popularity.

Sunny Day Real Estate isn't even really emo, they just get lumped in because you can hear Dischord/post-hardcore riffs in their earlier work, especially on Diary.

togepi, since you supposedly "know your music" , how bout you post your list of emo bands and then we can debate which ones are or arent emo and if any should be added..
rites of spring
saetia (i'm ignoring screamo since it's basically the same)
circle takes the square
hot cross
city of caterpillar
moss icon

I had a much better list, but I don't feel like typing it out, as i'm sure you're not just going to accept what I just said as truth. (hence the point of debate)

[Ilovepoprock]

emo, cannot be decided upon. many people are always gonna have different definitions so there's never gonna be a consencus on the issue. why not just make the rule to accept peoples opinion and state your own adn trust that they will accept yours?

[x togepi x]

emo, cannot be decided upon.

it's been decided upon by other forums. The fact that people say X band isn't emo shows that it has already been decided, well before you were even into punk.

How do I know?

When I was 15, I used to brag about how much I loved emo. Back then, it was Get Up Kids. My aunt, who was a part of the '85 DC scene, told me to download some rites of spring. I did, and understood. This definition has stood for over a decade now. What you speak of, is simple mislabeling. The media, which is lazy and oftentimes reports on things it doesn't know, calls something emo, and now people like you think it is.


many people are always gonna have different definitions so there's never gonna be a consencus on the issue.

How is this different from any other word? If emo, a word that has a set definition and has one had one before you even listened to music, can be considered subjective, than any other word can be too.

People always have different ideas as to what a certain word means. However, language works because a group of people believe x means x and not y. People within the hardcore scene already decided that emo would mean a form of hardcore. Thus, that is what it becomes.

The reason I am so hardcore about this is because I hate how mainstream culture co-opts and destroys the meanings of words and symbols like punk/emo. True emo bands are DIY, they don't sell out. What passes for emo now, is completely corporate. Even though they claim not to be. It sickens me that Hawthorne Heights can claim to be "helping to destroy corporate rock" when they're all over MTV and owned by a label that's partially owned by a major. DIY is very important value in the underground, and it loses its power as a symbol when mainstream bands can claim to be emo.

That isn't to say mainstream bands suck. Like i have said before, I love TBS, I love Brand New. I even like Fall Out Boy. The Mars Volta, who's on universal records, is probably my favorite band of all time. This isn't in an argument over who's music is better, it's one over definition.

Your logic is as follows: 1. Emo is subjective. 2. Becuase emo is subjective anything goes. I'll answer your number 2 in my next quote, but for your number 1, emo cannot be subjective because there has already been a specific consensus made before you even started coming to this forum. When you posted the TBS thread, people told you they weren't emo.

This is because emo has a certain, set definition. I know that emo is not subjective simply because you don't see argument within the regulars here about emo bands being emo. For example, If i post a thread about circle takes the square, nobody is going to come in the thread and say "CTTS isn't emo, but Rites of Spring is."

The fact that we have a certain definition, destroys all of your subjectivity points.


why not just make the rule to accept peoples opinion and state your own adn trust that they will accept yours?

Why? Becuase you claim emo is subjective!

This makes the word meaningless. Here's a list of bands that pass for emo today: Taking back sunday, brand new, the get up kids, the used, my chemical romance, fall out boy, coheed and cambria, copeland, underoath, thursday, hawthorne heights, bright eyes, and dashboard confessional.

Many of these bands sound nothing alike. Dashboard doesn't sound like Thursday. Coheed doesn't really sound like any of these bands. If we allow your idea of emo being subjective to be how this forum operates, the forum will be flooded with random bands that not only have no connection to each other, but also sound nothing alike.

instead of discussion about bands, we'd have pointless arguments. You post about TBS, someone would say TBS sucks. I post about Circle Takes the Square and some 15 year old kid tells me they sound horrible and I suck at life. It'd be completely stupid.

True emo bands tour together, come from the same areas; they have these connections. Even if they do exist in places like Europe, far removed from the scene here, they have a definite sound that makes them fit in. That's how a genre works.

[heyRomanticA__x]

Personally i think this gonna be a very hard debate to come up with an agreement on. Emo im my opinion is one of the most misunderstood genres of music! there is a very thin line separating emo from the other indie rock, punkpop genres..

but before we agree on defintions of emo lets look at examples..

togepi, since you supposedly "know your music" , how bout you post your list of emo bands and then we can debate which ones are or arent emo and if any should be added..

No there isn't. I suggest you try this link (http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226512)and go download some music from the listed bands. Also try listening to the bands togepi listed; you'll get a serious education.


Togepi, you seriously hit the nail on the head with this thread.

[Ilovepoprock]

that's fine and all, but what im saying is that there are gonna be people who think "the used" is the biggest emo staple in the world. 95% people would probably say "the used" is emo for one reason or another and your not gonna change that. There may have been a decided on definition but culture is always going to MAKE it subjective because not everyone agrees all the time :)

[underthetalking]

This has to be one of the most retarded things I have ever seen.

[Rock]

that's fine and all, but what im saying is that there are gonna be people who think "the used" is the biggest emo staple in the world. 95% people would probably say "the used" is emo for one reason or another and your not gonna change that. There may have been a decided on definition but culture is always going to MAKE it subjective because not everyone agrees all the time :)
haha. i've never been one to argue about the definition of the word "emo" and what bands are or are not emo. i could really care less. mostly, i just think it's funny. regardless, it doesn't matter if 95% of people believe the used are emo if they aren't (or even if they are). popular belief has never determined the truthfulness of any idea.

[Alt_fate83]

When I was 15, I used to brag about how much I loved emo. Back then, it was Get Up Kids. My aunt, who was a part of the '85 DC scene, told me to download some rites of spring. I did, and understood. This definition has stood for over a decade now. What you speak of, is simple mislabeling. The media, which is lazy and oftentimes reports on things it doesn't know, calls something emo, and now people like you think it is.

..so are you saying that you don't think Get Up Kids should be considered emo??


This makes the word meaningless. Here's a list of bands that pass for emo today: Taking back sunday, brand new, the get up kids, the used, my chemical romance, fall out boy, coheed and cambria, copeland, underoath, thursday, hawthorne heights, bright eyes, and dashboard confessional.

I've never seen coheed and cambria described of as emo. any article or review i've ever read uses the words "progressive" and "prog rock" .

most of those other bands you meantioned are usually considered screamo or post-hardcore

Fall out Boy is considered pop -punk in everything ive ever read or heard.
.. so where is this media you talk about thats ruining the name of emo?? I can see how it may seem that way , by the evergrowing popularity of these bands and bands like them, but i don't think true music journalists or at all discreditiing what you know as emo.

As for Dashboard confessional, here is the first description i found taken directly from the internet:
Led by the therapeutic vocals of Chris Carrabba, Dashboard Confessional have earned a fair amount of popularity with heartfelt, unplugged emo for those who can do without the genre's typically hard-hitting guitar theatrics, but value the music's sincerity. And sincerity is where Dashboard Confessional excel: Carraba's heart-on-sleeve vocals and songwriting exude feeling and melody, much to the delight of melancholy teens in search of a like-minded voice. It's a long way from Rites of Spring (or even Sunny Day Real Estate), but it's obvious why so many take this to heart.

Yeah, ok they are saying its a form of emo , but whats so wrong about that?? look at the references to the emo scene and bands that you yourself even mentioned!!!

and if dashboard is not emo then what would you say he is ????

alot of the bands that have been posted in the emo forum may not fit in with what you consider emo , but they sure as hell do not fit into any other category.

this isnt DC and its not 1985!! its 20 years later! and alot of TODAYS underground bands have gotten their influence from previous hardcore ,metalcore, punk, and EMO bands.. whether directly or indirectly, your emo has spawned a whole lot of different types of music, genres, and sub-genres.
the time is changing and so is the culture . music grows and differs over time . this is fact. you either have to accept the fact that the Emo you know is dead or is close to dying! If you won't accept that then you have to realize that there are bands out there who have to be classified in the same genre as the very bands that influenced them, at least until a genres is created for them.

listen, the only problem i have is that when somone mistakenly posts a band in the emo forum that isnt emo , theres no need to flip out and start ranting about whats emo and whats not! why cant you just simply state that you don't think its emo and then continue talking about whatever it is the thread is about.. or just simply ignore it all together.

[Rice and Bread]

it shouldn't really be an argument these bands are emo:

Embrace, Rites of Spring, Hot Cross, Saetia, Grade, A Day in Black and White, I Hate Myself, Indian Summer, Trophy Scars, Funeral Diner, Comadre, Song of Zarathustra, Moss Icon, Wallside, Native Nod, Spirit of Versailles, Amanda Woodward, Hoover, Still Life, Stop It!

etc

[BreakerBreaker]

Lolz at Dashboard being emo. Every songwriter and band in the history of music put emotion into their work, atleast at some point. That doesn't mean they are all "emo". Emo is the short term name for emotive hardcore. Chris Carraba crying about his girl troubles is not "emo". Well I agree the genre has changed, ie Rites of Spring -> Saetia, Hawthorne Heights and such do not and should not pass as emo. It's simply a misnomer.

[heyRomanticA__x]

that's fine and all, but what im saying is that there are gonna be people who think "the used" is the biggest emo staple in the world. 95% people would probably say "the used" is emo for one reason or another and your not gonna change that. There may have been a decided on definition but culture is always going to MAKE it subjective because not everyone agrees all the time :)

[ This post is specifically aimed at Ilovepoprock and Alt_fate83. ]

Wrong, emo was defined. It is NOT subjective. Take it as 1 + 1 = 2. Secondly, the 95% of the people that call the used emo are uneducated, misinformed, and just plain wrong.

End of discussion. If you want to post about TBS or any other band not listed here (http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226512) then take that bullshit to the pop forum, general music forum, or rock forum. You guys refuse to educate yourselves about what emo really is. Apparently you all feel like you can change the meaning of the word, or ignore where it came from. You can't. EMO < HARDCORE < PUNK

That's how it happened ok?

NO WHERE do TBS, BRAND NEW, DASHBOARD CONFESSIONAL, or THE USED fit in to that evolution.

Which is why you are wrong.


Now, Alt_fate83, seriously you have a reading comprehension problem. You didn't even read togepi's post correctly enough to quote him and respond. He didn't say the get up kids were emo, he said they weren't, that he was misinformed for thinking so at the time. Also, never did he mention that Dashboard confessional were emo. They aren't. Seriously, there's no point in me trying talk to you, because you can't fucking read. Oh, let me just quote you on this though..

this is fact. you either have to accept the fact that the Emo you know is dead or is close to dying! If you won't accept that then you have to realize that there are bands out there who have to be classified in the same genre as the very bands that influenced them, at least until a genres is created for them.

Again, go to said link above and you will find out how wrong you are.


Now follow the equation kids... EMO < HARDCORE < PUNK

This is the equation. But you are right, times have changed..people have become more hebetudinous. They also lack respect for history..lack respect..knowledge..the ability to get off their asses and do some research on the music they claim to like... McDonalds ADD culture at its finest..

[Ilovepoprock]

i guess i dont know what emo is, i dont care what it is, i will post whatever you want somewhere else, i already moved the TBS to the rock forum. but there is going to be another person who thinks something is emo when it isnt and post it here and your gonna have the same arguement. your wasting your time. :).

[Ilovepoprock]

This is the equation. But you are right, times have changed..people have become more hebetudinous. They also lack respect for history..lack respect..knowledge..the ability to get off their asses and do some research on the music they claim to like... McDonalds ADD culture at its finest..

just because i dont know a band shistory doesnt mean i dont like them.

[heyRomanticA__x]

just because i dont know a band shistory doesnt mean i dont like them.

Again..McDonalds ADD culture at it's finest. I said you didn't know the history of emo.

[Ilovepoprock]

you said i didnt know the history of music i claimed to like, i have the feeling i still misinterpretted you though...

[Alt_fate83]

Hay Romantica , I have a reading comprehension problem??? NO! if anything i just didnt convey my thoughts clearly enough for you to understand and i apologize. But i understand exactly what togepi said.. First of all what i asked about the get up kids was
..so are you saying that you don't think Get Up Kids should be considered emo??

This was a serious question. Why aren't the get up kids emo? I wanted to know why, after he was misinformed about the get up kids , he would then go and say they arent emo? this was intended for Togepi to respond and not for you to answer for him.

and i never said that he called dashboard emo. thats not the point i was making at all... the article that i quoted was in response to togepi blaming the media.. I realize that he mentioned dashboard to be a band that others thought of as emo.. and i was just pointing out that they at least have emo influences.. i dont think you even fully read both of the posts

[heyRomanticA__x]

Hay Romantica , I have a reading comprehension problem??? NO! if anything i just didnt convey my thoughts clearly enough for you to understand and i apologize. But i understand exactly what togepi said.. First of all what i asked about the get up kids was

This was a serious question. Why aren't the get up kids emo? I wanted to know why, after he was misinformed about the get up kids , he would then go and say they arent emo? this was intended for Togepi to respond and not for you to answer for him.

and i never said that he called dashboard emo. thats not the point i was making at all... the article that i quoted was in response to togepi blaming the media.. I realize that he mentioned dashboard to be a band that others thought of as emo.. and i was just pointing out that they at least have emo influences.. i dont think you even fully read both of the posts

I don't think you read his post. He pretty much answered your get up kids question within the first sentence.

[Alt_fate83]

oh and that link you posted doesn't educate me at all... it doesnt describe shit! It's a list of the same fuckin bands that you guys keep mentioning.. It doesn't define emo..

let me ask you what you think of wikapedias definition of emo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_%28music%29

Is that wrong??? i know users make up wikapedia so it could be wrong?? but i think its a pretty good definition.. If there is anything wrong with it i suggest you sign up and start editing it!

[heyRomanticA__x]

oh and that link you posted doesn't educate me at all... it doesnt describe shit! It's a list of the same fuckin bands that you guys keep mentioning.. It doesn't define emo..

let me ask you what you think of wikapedias definition of emo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_%28music%29

Is that wrong??? i know users make up wikapedia so it could be wrong?? but i think its a pretty good definition.. If there is anything wrong with it i suggest you sign up and start editing it!

Did you download any music by those bands? No? Well then you aren't going to learn anything by reading. Again..Mcdonalds ADD culture at its finest. Instead of complaining to me about the link, get off your ass and find some songs by those bands. Hearing those bands, will educate you and get you used to the style of music. Those bands define emo. Want me to state some more obvious answers?

Oh and about wikipedia, I do have an account there. Apparenly though, I'm fighting some crazy people about the content of that page.

[x togepi x]

..so are you saying that you don't think Get Up Kids should be considered emo??
no. read what you quoted. I said I used to think they were emo. It made sense to me since I'm from MO close to where the get up kids started. Everyone here claimed TGK was emo...however, when you finish reading you'll realize I was educated by a relative who lived in DC circa '85.



I've never seen coheed and cambria described of as emo. any article or review i've ever read uses the words "progressive" and "prog rock" .
MTV.com- Coheed the "emo" rush. http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1486023/20040329/story.jhtml

There's also an issue of guitar world from two years ago (i believe) that calls them emo. I'm too lazy to dig it out. but if someone calls me on it, i will.

most of those other bands you meantioned are usually considered screamo or post-hardcore
Screamo and emo are basically the same thing. So, once again, all of those bands are mislabled..unlessd they happen to sound like orchid, which they don't. I also wouldn't call them post-hardcore, but the paramaters for post-hardcore are vague.

THe problem is that kids listen to these bands and claim to identify with the emo scene...when these bands have nothing to do with it. So, even if the bands themselves aren't claiming emo, the mislabeling is a huge problem.



http://www.rhapsody.com/falloutboy
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1533265/20060531/index.jhtml?headlines=true

Hell, Peter even tried claiming rites of spring as an influence once (though he was in hardcore bands before FOB).

Type in Emo on Google News and what do you see?

Do you see Pageninteynine? Hot Cross?

No. You see the types of bands I listed in my response to you, the ones you mislabel as screamo.

[quote=Alt_Fate83]I can see how it may seem that way , by the evergrowing popularity of these bands and bands like them, but i don't think true music journalists or at all discreditiing what you know as emo.
You're half right here. True music journalists aren't screwing emo up that much. It's pretty much everyone else that tries to write about music. The popularity of these faux-emo bands is why this is such a problem. They get labeled emo...then everyone thinks they are. But it's the media's fault for perpetuating it.

As for Dashboard confessional, here is the first description i found taken directly from the internet:
Led by the therapeutic vocals of Chris Carrabba, Dashboard Confessional have earned a fair amount of popularity with heartfelt, unplugged emo for those who can do without the genre's typically hard-hitting guitar theatrics, but value the music's sincerity. And sincerity is where Dashboard Confessional excel: Carraba's heart-on-sleeve vocals and songwriting exude feeling and melody, much to the delight of melancholy teens in search of a like-minded voice. It's a long way from Rites of Spring (or even Sunny Day Real Estate), but it's obvious why so many take this to heart.
"It's a long way from Rites of Spring (or even Sunny Day Real Esetate), but it's obvious why so many take this to heart".

This source you cite proves what I"m saying. They recognize that dashboard sounds nothing like real emo, yet choose to use the label anyway. If people don't like "the genre's typically hard-hitting guitar theaterics", then they shouldn't be listening to emo.

What this article is saying is like me saying "oh, I hate the republican party's stance on abortion, the environment, the war, civil rights, etc...but I'm still a republican because I like the logo." All this articlce really says is that people like dashboard because it's heartfelt...LIKE old emo bands were. I'm not going to argue that they aren't heartfelt...but they're not emo.

If dashboard is emo...so is Nick Drake, Elliott Smith, Bob Dylan, Pink Floyd and any other musician that wrote a song from their heart.
This logic proves what i've been saying all along to poprock. You make the term meaningless when you don't use the right definition.

Yeah, ok they are saying its a form of emo , but whats so wrong about that?? look at the references to the emo scene and bands that you yourself even mentioned!!!
These references were basically mindless name dropping. Awesome, the person who wrote article knows about Rites of spring. They obviously know nothing of what dischord is about or they wouldn't put Dashboard under the emo label as dashboard's a major label, corporate band.


alot of the bands that have been posted in the emo forum may not fit in with what you consider emo , but they sure as hell do not fit into any other category.
here's some categories they could fit in. Pop-Punk, Indie, Acoustic Rock, Alternative Rock.

Even if you disagree with me on these, which is fine, why shouldn't we just make a new name for thsi genre? That's what we did with every emerging genre. let's call it pop-core (or something else. i'm not going to come up with the genre name).

what makes these bands so special that they get to steal another genre's name and aesthetic?


this isnt DC and its not 1985!! its 20 years later!
I like how you assume the DC scene is dead. It's not. That's why this is a problem. If all the true emo bands stopped playing, then it wouldn't matter if Hawthorne Heights was called emo as much. The fact is, you people are ignoring a thriving scene of innovative hardcore and stealing its name to label your mainstream music.


and alot of TODAYS underground bands have gotten their influence from previous hardcore ,metalcore, punk, and EMO bands.. whether directly or indirectly, your emo has spawned a whole lot of different types of music, genres, and sub-genres.
Yes. Indirectly or directly these genres were created and guess what? . They were new, ie not emo. Don't try and state the obvious, that music evolved, and use it to justify your inability to label music correctly.

but seriously, are you telling me that Fall out boy, Taking Back Sunday, Brand New, etc are underground bands? i laugh. hard.


this is fact. you either have to accept the fact that the Emo you know is dead or is close to dying!
It's dying? Really? So why hasn't Level-Plane Records, or Ebullition gone out of business? Why are there so many emo bands in europe? This is a completely false statement, but if you want to an argument about it, I will list tons of emo bands that are still together. You won't like how long the list is.

If you won't accept that then you have to realize that there are bands out there who have to be classified in the same genre as the very bands that influenced them, at least until a genres is created for them.
No. You label bands by what they sound like. For example, my band. I'm really influenced by a lot of rappers. Does that mean that my band is suddenly Rap? No.

Secondly, these bands probably weren't even influenced by real emo bands. A lot of the bands I listed come from the jersey scene. This means they were probably influenced by Saves the Day (pop-punk) and Lifetime (hardcore). not any emo bands.

listen, the only problem i have is that when somone mistakenly posts a band in the emo forum that isnt emo , theres no need to flip out and start ranting about whats emo and whats not! why cant you just simply state that you don't think its emo and then continue talking about whatever it is the thread is about.. or just simply ignore it all together.
that's a lot of the pot calling the kettle black. how are you not flipping out?

But, it's funny becasue you obviously didn't comprehend where I spoke about how DIY is really important to me, and how I don't like the mainstream co-opting the underground. this is something I fight against in many levels. Not just emo.

edit: On wikipedia, it's nearly impossible to change the def of emo without it changing back 20 minutes later. i spent hours just trying to get the sexism part on there, to totally change the definition would take years.

[Alt_fate83]

okay togepi.. i cant really disagree with that!

i read alot of those articles you linked though and one thing i did notice is how most of those articles don't describe those bands as being solely emo.. they say a mix with pop punk, or prog rock, or hardcore or something like that?? I just wanna know why a band cant have a little bit of a certain genre in it mixed with other styles or what have you?

again my argument isnt that todays mislabeled emo bands are actually emo. I just don't like the fact that if a band is not on a certain list or record label then they can't even be mentioned in this forum..
..and not every band on a record label are sell outs



Secondly, these bands probably weren't even influenced by real emo bands. A lot of the bands I listed come from the jersey scene. This means they were probably influenced by Saves the Day (pop-punk) and Lifetime (hardcore). not any emo bands.


Im actually glad you mentioned Saves the Day cause that was actually where i was gonna go next.. The reason i take this personally is that STDs "through Being Cool" was what introduced me into what i thought was the emo scene back in 99 ( i guess its like you and the get up kids) . I honestly think its like the best album ever. I grew up in the south Jersey Hardcore scene, and watched metalcore and emocore as it grew in the area.

Im not some 15 yr old kid who just started listening to fall out boy and my chem romance.
I too am disgusted with todays so-called emo scene and the kids that think they are emo. But there is no way to change this.. hey, maybe there should be an agreed upon new genre.. but for just a few of us to spread a new term for what people think is emo and to have it catch on would be pretty hard

and would you guys please stop using hawthorne heights as an example!!! that no-talent band sucks and should'nt even be making music let alone be classified as emo..

and as for hey romatica:
Mcdonalds ADD generation??? don't fucking judge me!! I was actually born and raised Vegan! i hate mcdonalds! I didnt try any meat or dairy products until i was 17. so how long have you been a vegetarian ?? you may be a little older than me but im not part of some "ADD generation"

[x togepi x]

i read alot of those articles you linked though and one thing i did notice is how most of those articles don't describe those bands as being solely emo.. they say a mix with pop punk, or prog rock, or hardcore or something like that?? I just wanna know why a band cant have a little bit of a certain genre in it mixed with other styles or what have you?

You can...but I don't see how any of those bands have any emo in them. For example, there's a band from Belgium (I think,) that's a post-rock/emo hybrid. They're really spacey but have some sweet emo parts. The problem with what you're saying here is that we still have to define what makes emo emo.

A lot of these bands that get labeled pop-punk/emo hybrids are called that because of their lyrical content, but that's not a very good standard. I mean, what song isn't emotional at some point? If you go by lyrics, then almost any song that isn't about partying, or politics (that's not to say politics can't be emotional though) would be considered emo. The word would still be meaningless.

I can't think that having been in more than a few of these arguments that the word emo means nothing. Think of how heated this discussion has been.

again my argument isnt that todays mislabeled emo bands are actually emo. I just don't like the fact that if a band is not on a certain list or record label then they can't even be mentioned in this forum..

We have these forum categories for a reason. I agree that we shouldn't be stuck to one specific list, but to be talked about in an emo forum, the band should be emo. Like a previous poster said, you wouldn't go into hardcore and talk about New Found Glory (even though they share members of Shalai Hulud).

It wouldn't be a problem except if we let things go, we'd have more threads about faux-emo than real emo. This is what happened when the forums were set up. I'd agree, occasionally it wouldn't matter if something slipped into the forum. The problem is that, with emo, when someone says "x band isn't emo", an argument starts. If we had mods, we could just close those threads.

Mods would fix this entire situation because threads about nonemo bands that weren't causing a problem would still be allowed, but they could stop the forum from being flooded with faux-emo bands and delete posts in legit emo threads (like the best emo lyricist one) that aren't on topic.

It's a really crappy situation, I know.

..and not every band on a record label are sell outs

Where did I say that they were?

This is the thread where I said that The Mars Volta were my favorite band. I also really like the Beatles and Led Zeppelin. They're all on majors.

The difference is that nobody in the Mars Volta is posturing like they're a part of the underground, these faux-emo bands often act like they are. that annoys me, but I still like some of them.

Im actually glad you mentioned Saves the Day cause that was actually where i was gonna go next.. The reason i take this personally is that STDs "through Being Cool" was what introduced me into what i thought was the emo scene back in 99 ( i guess its like you and the get up kids) . I honestly think its like the best album ever. I grew up in the south Jersey Hardcore scene, and watched metalcore and emocore as it grew in the area.

I'm glad that you're taking it personally. I wanted a real discussion about emo, not "x band is emo."/"no they're not."

I was very afraid of even bringing up Jersey because it's not my scene...(the bands here are influenced by DC which is why I relate to it, as well as that's where I want to live in the future and I have family there).


Im not some 15 yr old kid who just started listening to fall out boy and my chem romance.

I'm quoting this part, not to argue with you, but to make another one.

The problem isn't that kids listen to fall out boy. The problem is that's where they stop. They don't educate themselves. That's the problem when things become trendy in society: people get into the trendy part and suddenly think they're experts, which causes them not to actually educate themselves.

I lucked out. Emo wasn't trendy when I was 15. So, when I talked about how emo I was, nobody had any idea what I was talking about. Then, I got educated about RoS and started getting into the bands. It wasn't because I thought it'd make me cool, since talking about most of these bands in high school lead to blank stares from my classmates, but because I liked the music.

The trend makes it so that people, and this is a generalization as I know not everyone that likes this trend fits into what I'm about to say, seek out emo because it's the in thing, without knowing what it really is...and that just further warps the genre's identity.

I too am disgusted with todays so-called emo scene and the kids that think they are emo. But there is no way to change this.. hey, maybe there should be an agreed upon new genre.. but for just a few of us to spread a new term for what people think is emo and to have it catch on would be pretty hard

Here, I agree. but just because 95% of the population is wrong, that doesn't mean that you should defend their position or that we should let the emo forum turn into a bunch of lame so-called emo kids talking about trendy bands.

and would you guys please stop using hawthorne heights as an example!!! that no-talent band sucks and should'nt even be making music let alone be classified as emo..

They're the easiest example and probably the worst band ever.

[mht]

though i dont want to get involved in your label war, cause its gay, but saetia and circle takes the square are definatly not on the emo side of the spectrum. and before you throw around your screamo/post hardcore genres just call them indie, as they were/are independent bands that kids that like get hard ons for genres (like emo, screamo) like to say their band names (saetia )to increase their scene points and put them on their band list on myspace to get girls. ( + 75 scene points for you mentioning thouse bands btw )

[BreakerBreaker]

though i dont want to get involved in your label war, cause its gay, but saetia and circle takes the square are definatly not on the emo side of the spectrum. and before you throw around your screamo/post hardcore genres just call them indie, as they were/are independent bands that kids that like get hard ons for genres (like emo, screamo) like to say their band names (saetia )to increase their scene points and put them on their band list on myspace to get girls. ( + 75 scene points for you mentioning thouse bands btw )

You're a tool.

[deekismusic]

anybody who knows emo and where it came from knows that only the ignorant think mcr tbs or the used are in any way associated with the actual stuff. let people listen to pop and not spoil what's good, eh?

[underthetalking]

I have a better question...

Who the FUCK cares? Enjoy the music for the godamn music regardless of what people label it as. For all I care someone could call Sunny Day Real Estate fucking death metal. Thats not going to stop me from listening to them. You guys get so caught up in your definitions. Chill out.

[underthetalking]

anybody who knows emo and where it came from knows that only the ignorant think mcr tbs or the used are in any way associated with the actual stuff. let people listen to pop and not spoil what's good, eh?

People like you make me wonder why I even go to shows anymore. I go and everytime I want to kick the shit out of some pretentious prick.

[Ilovepoprock]

^^waste of time^^

[wyverna]

I have a better question...

Who the FUCK cares? Enjoy the music for the godamn music regardless of what people label it as. For all I care someone could call Sunny Day Real Estate fucking death metal. Thats not going to stop me from listening to them. You guys get so caught up in your definitions. Chill out.

I agree totally.

[TheByrus]

for real.

why put anything in genres or even name them at all?

we should all just call everything marclar.


[/sarcasm]

[BreakerBreaker]

I have a better question...

Who the FUCK cares? Enjoy the music for the godamn music regardless of what people label it as. For all I care someone could call Sunny Day Real Estate fucking death metal. Thats not going to stop me from listening to them. You guys get so caught up in your definitions. Chill out.

The label "emo" transcends more than just a mere category or type of music. It represents a common bond. Way back when "emo" bands were DIY. To them, music was a very personal and introspective release that demanded the utmost care and dedication. As cliche as it may sound, they played music to play music. No corporations, no big business, no sold out arena concerts. The scene was a connection, a common brotherhood between fan and musician.

[Alt_fate83]

anybody who knows emo and where it came from knows that only the ignorant think mcr tbs or the used are in any way associated with the actual stuff. let people listen to pop and not spoil what's good, eh?

what your saying is fine, except for that "spoil whats good" part? you make it sound like the underground scene is the only place that good music can come out of!!
** ooh look at me! im the real thing ! i listen to real emo!! these bands arent sell outs! they are on totally independent labels ... and i take pride in the fact that they are under the radar and barely known!! ***

I agree, that before this debate with Togepi, i was somewhat ignorant to the real definition of emo ! but now i know and i am going to download and listen to these bands to familiarize myself with emo.. so Id like to thank togepi for not being a complete asshole and actually making good arguments to help me realize.
Its the comments like the ones that you make that make me think that some of you are just out to bash on every band that has success and sells records and everyone who listens to them.. I hope one day emo becomes popular and successful and then im sure there will still be people with your mindset that popular music wont be good anymore because everyone will be listening to it!

[A picasso blue]

theres obviously a debate but anything that "mainstream media" labels as emo is far from it

[A picasso blue]

and emo is dead already

[heyRomanticA__x]

what your saying is fine, except for that "spoil whats good" part? you make it sound like the underground scene is the only place that good music can come out of!!
** ooh look at me! im the real thing ! i listen to real emo!! these bands arent sell outs! they are on totally independent labels ... and i take pride in the fact that they are under the radar and barely known!! ***

I agree, that before this debate with Togepi, i was somewhat ignorant to the real definition of emo ! but now i know and i am going to download and listen to these bands to familiarize myself with emo.. so Id like to thank togepi for not being a complete asshole and actually making good arguments to help me realize.
Its the comments like the ones that you make that make me think that some of you are just out to bash on every band that has success and sells records and everyone who listens to them.. I hope one day emo becomes popular and successful and then im sure there will still be people with your mindset that popular music wont be good anymore because everyone will be listening to it!


Alt_fate83 what's your name?

Anyways, good job togepi! You weren't an asshole ( like I was..apparently..) while giving your explanation.

[Alt_fate83]

Im Kyle and that ass hole comment wasn't really directed towards you (althought i didnt like that you judged me with that mcdonalds ADD remark) I was just saying that because its not too often someone puts on an actually reasonable argument/debate on these forums.. its usually "shut the fuck up....blah, blah.... you dont know what you are talking about... blah, blah... go die..." and it never gets anything accomplished

[Blake Solomon]

Im Kyle and that ass hole comment wasn't really directed towards you (althought i didnt like that you judged me with that mcdonalds ADD remark) I was just saying that because its not too often someone puts on an actually reasonable argument/debate on these forums.. its usually "shut the fuck up....blah, blah.... you dont know what you are talking about... blah, blah... go die..." and it never gets anything accomplished


You are a good man. These debates, to a point, are a great step for this forum.We should have just only had one HUGE thread about this instead of 7 similar ones. It is difficult to educate those who don't want to learn, but with time and effort, things change. This forum has been on the defensive since it started, but it is making great strides and I think we can only get better from here.

Keep up the good work.

[x togepi x]

and emo is dead already

does that make it a zombie that feeds off the brains of weaker genres like post-punk?

I agree, that before this debate with Togepi, i was somewhat ignorant to the real definition of emo ! but now i know and i am going to download and listen to these bands to familiarize myself with emo.. so Id like to thank togepi for not being a complete asshole and actually making good arguments to help me realize.
Its the comments like the ones that you make that make me think that some of you are just out to bash on every band that has success and sells records and everyone who listens to them.. I hope one day emo becomes popular and successful and then im sure there will still be people with your mindset that popular music wont be good anymore because everyone will be listening to it!

good luck with that. Sometimes these bands are pretty hard to get into. I'll admit, the first time I heard Circle Takes the Square I couldn't handle more then 30 seconds. Of course, the second time was in concert, so I got lucky.

Anyways, good job togepi! You weren't an asshole ( like I was..apparently..) while giving your explanation

haha, thanks. I'm practicing for when my band does interviews.

[itsjustadrian]

and emo is dead already
Emo is far from dead. Just read my foreign screamo list, plenty of life in this scene.

[level4loser]

good luck with that. Sometimes these bands are pretty hard to get into. I'll admit, the first time I heard Circle Takes the Square I couldn't handle more then 30 seconds. Of course, the second time was in concert, so I got lucky.


.

circle takes the square is amazing

[Alt_fate83]

You are a good man. These debates, to a point, are a great step for this forum.We should have just only had one HUGE thread about this instead of 7 similar ones. It is difficult to educate those who don't want to learn, but with time and effort, things change. This forum has been on the defensive since it started, but it is making great strides and I think we can only get better from here.

Keep up the good work.

thanks man

I also have to give you props for this quote you made in the other thread:
Its probably because of the bad emo jokes that are sent out by people that arent "emo". They try so hard to put others down and do it in such a cliched way, that they are just as bad as the people they are trying so hard to mock. Its enough to give me a migraine.

yeah, nicely said.. i can see we are the same page here!


good luck with that. Sometimes these bands are pretty hard to get into. I'll admit, the first time I heard Circle Takes the Square I couldn't handle more then 30 seconds. Of course, the second time was in concert, so I got lucky.

yeah, im actually listening to Circle takes the square right now .. i like what i hear! but im still pretty new to this music so i probably wont visit these forums too often .. until i can know what im talking about

[Freud]

is country emo? them country singers are always sad.







and emo=slitting wristss. end of story.

[outofnothing]

There's no stopping the redefinition of emo. Even if you somehow successfully banned conversation around Dashboard Confessional, Jimmy Eat World, Get-Up Kids, Saves the Day, etc. in this forum, the wider world will still understand emo in that context. The '85 DC scene was a short-lived, disunified subculture. It had a widespread influence through and beyond Sunny Day Real Estate, but in terms of impact, it had nowhere near the same cultural ramifications as the late '90s midwest scene that spawned the likes of Cap'n Jazz, Braid, Mineral, Christie Front Drive, Lifetime, etc. That's why there are no books dedicated to the '85 DC scene whereas there's an actual book on this late '90s scene by Kurt Loder (I believe). And unfortunately for the emo-snobs, this was labeled as emo and everything mainstream about Jimmy Eat World, Saves the Day, and Dashboard Confessional is considered emo and always will be and there's nothing you can do or say that will stop this.

Most people do not actually know what emo of any kind is, so in the grand scheme of things, this argument is meaningless.

[x togepi x]

Even if you somehow successfully banned conversation around Dashboard Confessional, Jimmy Eat World, Get-Up Kids, Saves the Day, etc. in this forum, the wider world will still understand emo in that context.

But we'd have a place to talk about real emo and not have to put up with about these bands. You can talk about Dashboard, JEW TGK and STD in a pop punk forum and get away with it easily.

Even if we "can't stop" this redefition, which I think is completely false, as I'll cover later, I ask you the same question as I asked Kyle: what makes these bands special so that they get to steal the identity of bands of another genre that's still thriving?

But, on this redefinition, I think you're totally wrong. In the 80s, hair metal was what everyone called metal. Ask the population what metal was, they'd tell you it was stuff like Twisted Sister or Quiet Riot. They probably would say nothing about thrashy bands. Yet, nowadays, when we talk about metal, we talk about heavier music. If you can redefine something, then there's nothing stopping it from being redefined again. Thus, this argument isn't pointless.

At some point in the future, being "emo" is going to be a liability. Some new trend is going to come about, and the so-called emo bands of today, are either going to change their label so that they can stay trendy, or die off (or at least leave the mainstream and end up like the hair metal bands I spoke of earlier). At this point, we can reclaim the term. You seem to think that these bands will always be popular, when that's not the case. Just like metal, the term emo will be able to go back to its roots.

You're stuck on the wrong side of this either way. either you don't believe definitions can change, so logically you have to side with us since the word was used in the hardcore community first, or you believe the word can be redefined, which means that we can claim it back sometime in the future.

The '85 DC scene was a short-lived, disunified subculture.

nice way to ignore half of what's been said here. DC emo is still a scene. If anything, the scene has spread across the atlantic to europe, as the thread on foreign bands shows, as well as across the country as there's a pretty decent scene in California. Like I said before, if the scene was short-lived, why is Level-Plane and Ebullition still in business? How did Hot Cross get signed to Equal Vision?

Seriously people, you can claim that emo evolved into this mainstream music, and we can have a completely different discussion since that claim is debatable, but you cannot ignore the fact that DC emo is still around. There's still a scene.

It had a widespread influence through and beyond Sunny Day Real Estate, but in terms of impact, it had nowhere near the same cultural ramifications as the late '90s midwest scene that spawned the likes of Cap'n Jazz, Braid, Mineral, Christie Front Drive, Lifetime, etc.

first off, Lifetime is from Jersey..they're not of that scene that had that supposedly huge impact. They're considered a hardcore band. I point this out because they're probably the most influential of any of the bands you listed.

Next, when people talk about emo here, they're not talking about these midwest emo bands. They're talking about MCR, Panic! At The Disco, Taking Back Sunday, etc. So what you say here is irrelevant to the discussion. Nobody in this forum is going to get onto you for talking about midwest emo. It's considered a seperate genre, which spawned from emo. Thus the term "midwest". You can easily claim it evolved out of the scene.

This is evolution out of the scene is important because the mainstream bands did not evolve from Midwest Emo. They're out of the Jersey scene, which was a hardcore scene. It's a completely different scene, which is why we don't want to talk about those bands here. As I said before, if they don't have connections to the emo scene, they're not emo. Mineral, et al, do.

As for cultural impact, you can't possibly tell me that Midwest emo has affected music more than Dischord emo. Especially since the DIY ethic of Dischord bands has been adopted by tons of bands in the punk/indie/hardcore scenes.

That's why there are no books dedicated to the '85 DC scene whereas there's an actual book on this late '90s scene by Kurt Loder (I believe).

At this point, I wonder if you actually read the discussion at all or if you were just adding your 2 cents. I mean, it's cool if you just wanted to add, but I think you need to go back and where I and other people have spoken about the DIY aspects of Emo.

You're right. The amount of books on true emo are slim to none. Why? because any writing done on emo wouldn't be published in a book that'd be widespread. Our writing about the scene would be found in independent media, like online, or in independent zines. There is probably much more literature about the emo scene in these zines than there are books about what you think emo is.

This is a really bad argument to make when you're talking about something that's completely underground and not corporate. Of course, our narratives aren't going to be found in a book published by a major book publisher. If we put out our own records and made our own shows/tours DIY, why wouldn't we do the same with our writing? To claim that true emo is dead or wasn't important because we can't read about it is a horrible assumption to make.

What you're saying is tantamount to saying "well, there's more coverage about hollywood than there is about independent films, so indie films don't exist and aren't important." media coverage is not a good barometer for things like this.

Even then, let's talk literature. When you want to see how words have evolved throughout time, you look them up in the Oxford English Dictionary. A few months ago, I was writing a paper about language where we had to look up words in the OEM, and because I was bored and class hadn't ended, I decided to check and see if Emo was in there.

The 2005 edition has emo. It's definition is the hardcore, purist definition. It doesn't even acknowledge emo as a trend, why? Because we don't care about temprorary trends when we talk about the meanings of words. That's why you can't look up "owned" in the dictionary and find out it means someone who got beat in a video game.

The OEM traced emo's use back to the early 90s, about hardcore bands in magazines. So that basically means that you can't say "well, your def hasn't been written about, so your emo wasn't that important", since if MCR/TBS were at all important to the evolution of the english language instead of just trendy bands, they'd be in the OEM as it gets updated yearly.

And unfortunately for the emo-snobs....

What I really love about the quote here is that you assume that people like me just get off on genres and care nothing about music itself. I'm not a snob. I flat out said I LIKE TAKING BACK SUNDAY.

People who care that emo gets labeled emo have just as much emotionally invested in this music if not more so than people who are just defending TBS. Calling us snobs does nothing to further the discussion. It's just an attack people seem to use because they can't defend their position. Even if we're snobs, it doesn't change the fact that we're right, or at least, can articulate ourselves much better.

[heyRomanticA__x]

There's no stopping the redefinition of emo.

Yes there is. By simply educating the world about the real definition. A prime example of this is Alt_fate83. This guy is listening to real emo now..imagine how many other people he's going to share the music with? That's a good thing.

Utman8 said it best, "It is difficult to educate those who don't want to learn, but with time and effort, things change."

[outofnothing]

Basically it boils down to the fact that you get outvoted. Even when using the term emo becomes a liability (it already has for many of these bands) the established historical record will still reflect emo as being this late '90s thing that boiled over into these other bands (TBS, Used, etc.) you're talking about. This book is the one I was talking about: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312308639/qid=1149288712/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-7170378-9939033?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

It's not by Kurt Loder but another MTV guy and if I recall right from flipping through the book it actually has the MTV logo on it. You're not going to get around the fact that this book is out there and that the thousands of other references to emo as being Jimmy Eat World and Dashboard Confessional are out there. You're an intelligent person. Your crusade to reclaim the word is kind of like taking a straw and some spit wads against an army of tanks. Far be it from me to stop you, but someone has to point that out.

[outofnothing]

Also togepi, you read far too much into what I wrote. You assume that I am using "midwest emo" as a genre label. You assume I am defending TBS. You assume I feel that 85 DC emo is unimportant. You assume that I don't think there's the same kind of emo now. You assume I don't know where Lifetime is from. You assume that my argument is because there's no mainstream books about 85 DC emo it didn't exist. Your assumptions are crazy.

[x togepi x]

I'm not sure how what you say really answers what I said.. It doesn't matter that we're out voted now because we're 1) still right 2) still standing up for DIY and 3) will be able to reclaim the definition in the future.



Even when using the term emo becomes a liability (it already has for many of these bands) the established historical record will still reflect emo as being this late '90s thing that boiled over into these other bands (TBS, Used, etc.) you're talking about.
How does this at all answer where I talked about hair metal?

Besides, the Oxford English Dictionary is a much better historical record for word usage than some book by some guy. especially when that book is written by MTV.

I know what you're saying, that it's not very likely that the word can be reclaimed, but when looking at hair metal and seeing how metal now represents the same kind of spirit that metal had before the 80s, it seems to me that the same thing can happen with emo. People into emo care just as much about their bands as metalheads.

Edit for anyone who's paying attention: outofnothing posted their last comment while I was responding. So here's my response to their response. i know, it's confusing but whatever

You assume that I am using "midwest emo" as a genre label.

No I don't. I was just pointing out those bands you listed (mineral, etc) are considered Midwest Emo and are a seperate genre. However, they're accepted as an evolution from the scene. People don't really care if you talk about them here or not. I made that entire point about them to differentiate between them and the faux emo bands. My point is, when people come in here and talk about Braid, nobody cares. When people come in here and talk about TBS, we do. Because TBS doesn't have connections to the scene and Braid does. simple.

You assume I am defending TBS.

No i don't. The only part I even implied that you were defending TBS was when you called me a snob. I was just pointing out that this isn't a "my music is better than your music" argument.

You assume I feel that 85 DC emo is unimportant. You assume that I don't think there's the same kind of emo now.

If this is true, then why did you say DC emo was dead?

You say and I quote: "The '85 DC scene was a short-lived, disunified subculture."

How is that not you saying the scene is dead?

You assume I don't know where Lifetime is from.

You're right. The fact that you lumped them with Christie Front Drive/Mineral made me think you didn't know where they were from since Lifetime was a part of the Jersey hardcore scene and these bands were a part of the Midwest Emo scene. Sorry, I was only pointing out that Lifetime isn't comparable to those bands.

You assume that my argument is because there's no mainstream books about 85 DC emo it didn't exist.

Once again, let me quote you: "It had a widespread influence through and beyond Sunny Day Real Estate, but in terms of impact, it had nowhere near the same cultural ramifications as the late '90s midwest scene that spawned the likes of Cap'n Jazz, Braid, Mineral, Christie Front Drive, Lifetime, etc. That's why there are no books dedicated to the '85 DC scene whereas there's an actual book on this late '90s scene by Kurt Loder (I believe)."

You flat out tell me that DC emo did not have as big a culture impact as MW Emo, and your way to prove this is through a book written by MTV.

You're right, I did assume that you were claiming that no mainstream books about DC emo helps prove it doesn't exist, since in the same post, you said that DC scene was short lived. How am I supposed to read your posts when you claim DC emo is dead, and then claim it's not?

Even if I made that assumption, it doesn't change any of my argument. Books on popular culture by people like MTV and other media coverage are not good barometers for these sorts of things because they go only by what's trendy.

But, let's talk about what you didn't do. You never answered any of what I said about the Oxford English Dictionary. This kills everything you say. It proves that we don't look at short lived trends when we define words.

[Web250]

I applaud you for this thread Togepi.

[mht]

midwest emo?


you got to be fucking kidding me, this genre crap is sickening.

[x togepi x]

i'm sure midwest emo would offend you less than what it could be called: post-emo indie.

[outofnothing]

To clarify, I feel that this 85 emo for lack of a better term was short-lived because it was a scene of people exclusively in Wash. DC who moved on afterward. My feeling is that although there may be bands who are carrying the torch forward by playing the same style of music and nurturing a similar culture, even in Washington, DC, that the original guys like Guy Piccioto and the fans who were part of this scene, because they were a very small group, went on to other things. The quote-unquote 85 DC emo that exists now pays homage to but is not directly tied in with this same group of people. So while I don't feel it's a dead genre, I feel that the true original was short-lived and disunified.

In contrast the so-called midwest emo bands have, even after breaking up, formed other bands, influenced other bands, and on and on in an endless chain. (See Owen, American Football, Owls, etc.)

For the record, I categorize Lifetime with the Get-up Kids with Cap'n Jazz and Braid and so on because I feel like there proximity in time and sound rather than their proximity in geography is really what determines their fundamental similarity. That's why I lumped them together.

[mht]

i just made up a genre today called philadelphia-post-hardcore-alternative-emo-inde and there are two bands in it,


circa survive and mewithoutyou. thats it. so lets hope 10 years from now i spark someone to bitch and moan about it on a forum somewhere.

[x togepi x]

To clarify, I feel that this 85 emo for lack of a better term was short-lived because it was a scene of people exclusively in Wash. DC who moved on afterward. My feeling is that although there may be bands who are carrying the torch forward by playing the same style of music and nurturing a similar culture, even in Washington, DC, that the original guys like Guy Piccioto and the fans who were part of this scene, because they were a very small group, went on to other things.
Im glad you clarified, but I must ask another question. Do you believe it's dead or not? I ask because at one point you basically said it was, then you criticized me for assuming you said that, and once again you're implying that it's gone.

My problem with your logic here is that it assumes that a scene must be static. By this I mean, you're telling me that for DC to thrive, the same people would have had to have been involved for longer than they were. It's your argument that the small group of people involved in the emo scene moved on to other things.

There's a few flaws in this reasoning, the first being in the idea that it's a problem that the original people moved on. People grow up and get real jobs. Being in a band, especially an underground one, isn't the best career if you want to make enough money to support a family. People had to move onto other things. The thing is, this isn't something that's unique to the DC scene, it happens everyhwere. Scenes replace themselves with new people, that's how new music comes out of them. There was an influx of new people into the DC scene that created all sorts of new DC-style stuff, bands like Q and Not U (who isn't emo) added a dance element to the music while DC's A Day In Black and White fused emo with post-punk music.

More importantly, many of the people involved in the scene are still involved in music at some point in time. There are many music critics that cut their teeth int he DC scene, ads well as the people who run Dischord and other indie labels.

At the point where you admit that bands are playing the same music, which you do when you say "My feeling is that although there may be bands who are carrying the torch forward by playing the same style of music and nurturing a similar culture...", you are essentially admitting the scene is still in existence. Are the same people involved? Not necessarily, but think of all the people who were punk in the 70s/80s and aren't now. Would you tell me punk's dead?

It's really elitist to assume that because most of the original people in the scene have moved on, that the scene dies. It doesn't as long as people are carrying on the torch. But, even then, the DC scene has expanded throughout the country and overseas, and these bands have been innovating with the classic dischord sound for years.

The quote-unquote 85 DC emo that exists now pays homage to but is not directly tied in with this same group of people. So while I don't feel it's a dead genre, I feel that the true original was short-lived and disunified. what's the difference between the two? the lack of the original members? If that's all you have, then you're making a weak argument. We classify scenes by what they stand for and what their music sounds like, not the people that make them up.

Even then, you're making a huge mistake by ignoring the fact that the scene expanded. I might agree that DC emo isn't as strong as it used to be, but that's not because it died, it's because it has expanded all over the country and into Europe and Asia.

you can't tell me that real emo is merely paying homage, when these bands are coming up with new ideas. There's a lot of innovation in the emo scene which shows that it's not merely imitating or paying homage to a past scene's glory days. It's still sthriving. In fact, the existence of foreign bands helps me prove my next point: there are more emo bands now than there ever have been. you can't tell me that doesn't prove that real emo is a thriving genre.

In contrast the so-called midwest emo bands have, even after breaking up, formed other bands, influenced other bands, and on and on in an endless chain. (See Owen, American Football, Owls, etc.)
This part is really unfair of you. You tell me the original DC bands break up and that makes the scene less important, yet you tell me that Midwest bands broke up, but it's okay because they formed new bands and influenced others forming what you call an endless chain.

How does this not apply also to DC? DC has influenced just as much, if not more than Midwest emo, and the dc scene has its own bands formed from members of previous bands. For example, Guy quits Rites of Spring, forms One Last Wish. Then One Last Wish breaks up and he helps form Fugazi. Fugazi goes on haitus and Guy is now a hardcore producer. There's an endless chain, especially as a producer, he can influence how other bands sound.

The same thing happens in real emo. A band called the state secedes breaks up and former members form Gospel (who everyone who likes emo needs to check out.) Saetia breaks up and members from Hot Cross (and a few other bands).

Nothing you've said about Midwest Emo doesn't apply to DC. DC influenced, and formed new bands; creating the same endless chain that Midwest did. If you don't buy that, then claim Midwest is dead too. You can't tell me that DC isn't important because the originals left, but Midwest is even though the originals are gone (because we know that a lot of people who formed that Midwest scene have moved on).

For the record, I categorize Lifetime with the Get-up Kids with Cap'n Jazz and Braid and so on because I feel like there proximity in time and sound rather than their proximity in geography is really what determines their fundamental similarity. That's why I lumped them together.
You're still ignoring what bands take influences from who, and that's why I pointed out geography. The Jersey bands took influences from Lifetime. Lifetime was a part of the hardcore scene for this reasoning. Besides, they don't really sound like Braid or The Geup Kids or Cap'n Jazz in all reality. That's why I was confused that you lumped them together.

i just made up a genre today called philadelphia-post-hardcore-alternative-emo-inde and there are two bands in it,


circa survive and mewithoutyou. thats it. so lets hope 10 years from now i spark someone to bitch and moan about it on a forum somewhere.
yeah but you're still wrong. It's obvious Circa Survive is genericore and mewithoutyou is post-rippingoffnationofulyssesandnotbein gverygoodatit, christian rock.

[mht]

yeah but you're still wrong. It's obvious Circa Survive is genericore and mewithoutyou is post-rippingoffnationofulyssesandnotbein gverygoodatit, christian rock.


okay two things

1) it was a joke, making fun of your stupid genres
2) im not a fan of circa survive
3) im not even going to bother to cut up the shit music you listen to and say mewithoutyou is better because that will lead you in writing a 2 page post im sure. so ill let you win.


that was three things, sorry.

[x togepi x]

I was joking too, but go ahead and "cut up the shit music" i listen to, since looking at your profile, we listen to a lot of the same bands.

[outofnothing]

First of all I think it's crap to ever say that one band is better than another based around any kind of genre it may or may not fit into. To say that midwest emo is better or worse than DC emo based on who first was described as "emo" is silly. I don't mind if a person's personal preference is for one or the other based purely on the sound of the band. So understand that I am not trying to argue anything in the nature of "midwest emo is better than/worse than/equal to DC emo" or any other kind of music for that matter. My argument about midwest emo is only that because these bands influenced more mainstream bands than DC emo and they got called "emo" for whatever reason, a majority of people began calling that sound emo and the result, as much as we dislike it, is that we are in this position now of having to reclaim it or accept it. I choose to accept it, and you choose to reclaim it, which is cool. I am not knocking that. But the fact that I accept it doesn't mean I am necessarily okay with it, or feel that midwest emo is some kind of superior music.

Second, with regards to emo being dead, the way I would put it is the scene is dead, but the genre is not. To me the definition of "scene" has to do with certain people in a certain place. Thus we have the Austin scene, the DC scene, the New York scene and each of these "scenes" is fragmented further by genre. The fact that the 85 DC emo scene spawned a particular sound is great, but I don't feel like it's a scene anymore when, like you alluded to, many of the bands are in separate countries from each other. Maybe they are fostering local music scenes but they are no longer the DC emo scene.

Most people I know who were personally involved in DC emo feel it was over by the '90s. That's the most common argument I've heard against anything being called emo.

To add on to your argument, I was about to ask the same thing of you. I'm well aware that sounds expand. You can definitely hear the DC Dischord sound in Q and Not U and yet it is something entirely new to that genre. Now, if you trace back Taking Back Sunday's roots, or Saves the Day's roots or whoever you are so adamant is not emo, you will come back to Rites of Spring at one point in their geneology. So to me it seems like you are the one ignoring that sounds expand. What do you think about that? On the one hand, I definitely see your point that emo be defined as part of hardcore and not pop-punk, but bands like The Promise Ring, Texas is the Reason and others connect the two. So where do we draw the line around what is emo and what is not, and why do we draw the line there? At least we should recognize that some of these bands are grandchildren of emo even if it doesn't make them emo.

[x togepi x]

Before going on, let's clean up this argument a little bit. DC's important, Midwest is important. They're both accepted as parts of the emo scene. We both agree on this. I realize that at the beginning i flat out said, emo isn't an indie genre, because I don't think it is. It's definitely a hardcore one. Obviously Midwest and Pure/True/Elitist/DC emo are related.

My question to you is where do you draw the line? nobody here, i think, is going to complain about midwest bands being talked about here. so let's ignore that for the time being. What i want to know is, why do you defend TBS, etc, being called emo? or if you even do that?

First of all I think it's crap to ever say that one band is better than another based around any kind of genre it may or may not fit into. To say that midwest emo is better or worse than DC emo based on who first was described as "emo" is silly. I don't mind if a person's personal preference is for one or the other based purely on the sound of the band.
I agree. I'm not doing that either. I'm only pointing this out to show that we're arguing about a definition and not who's music is better.

My argument about midwest emo is only that because these bands influenced more mainstream bands than DC emo and they got called "emo" for whatever reason, a majority of people began calling that sound emo and the result, as much as we dislike it, is that we are in this position now of having to reclaim it or accept it.
I disagree with the whole idea that dischord didn't influence more than Midwest, but I'm tired of telling you why. If you want to know again, ask. but right now typing a lot about DIY isn't going to change your mind at all.

There are two problems I see with your argument. First, I don't see the influence from Mineral/Cap'n Jazz/Braid in what's passing for emo now. I'll talk about that later. Secondly, when most people talk about emo, they're not saying "X band is emo because I can hear Mineral in them" they say, "it's because they have emotional lyrics". I can dig up tons of articles to back this up. The mainstream definition, which is the one I have the problem with, is about emotional content, which in my opinion makes the term meaningless. I've covered that earlier in the thread, but once again, if you want to know, ask and I'll clarify.

I agree that we have to reclaim or accept. I just think accepting the definition the mainstream uses is stupid because it's a meaningless term and that it will be easier to reclaim once emo stops the trendy thing to say.


Second, with regards to emo being dead, the way I would put it is the scene is dead, but the genre is not. To me the definition of "scene" has to do with certain people in a certain place. Thus we have the Austin scene, the DC scene, the New York scene and each of these "scenes" is fragmented further by genre. The fact that the 85 DC emo scene spawned a particular sound is great, but I don't feel like it's a scene anymore when, like you alluded to, many of the bands are in separate countries from each other. Maybe they are fostering local music scenes but they are no longer the DC emo scene.
I think you were missing my point though in that most of what I'm saying about DC isn't necessarily about the scene itself, but all the scenes that are continuing to play that kind of music. We can say DC is dead, though I'll still disagree and point out ADIBAW and Dischord, but in its death, there are tons of other scenes all over the place. This goes to show that the emo I'm referring to isn't dead, it's still thriving, which was my entire point. There are more bands that I would call emo now than there were in 85 and these bands aren't just simply rehashing the old ideas, so you can't say they're paying tribute, they're still important.

I was using the term DC because saying "true emo" sounds elitist and someone like Ilovepoprock would whine about it some more and without answering any of my reasoning as to why their definition is stupid. A lot of what I pointed out isn't from DC. Ebullition isn't. I'm pretty sure Level-Plane is based out of New York.

Most people I know who were personally involved in DC emo feel it was over by the '90s. That's the most common argument I've heard against anything being called emo.
I used to agree with this until i started listening to level-plane bands. It's kinda the same argument as there's no real punk after the mid 80s or whatever.

To add on to your argument, I was about to ask the same thing of you. I'm well aware that sounds expand. You can definitely hear the DC Dischord sound in Q and Not U and yet it is something entirely new to that genre. Now, if you trace back Taking Back Sunday's roots, or Saves the Day's roots or whoever you are so adamant is not emo, you will come back to Rites of Spring at one point in their geneology.
If that's true, trace TBS to rites of spring. show me the geneology.

I say this because I totally disagree. You definitely can trace TBS or STD to Lifetime, but as I said before, Lifetime's a huge hardcore band. It's a different scene. Any Saves the Day interview i've read said the same thing. They talk about how they were influenced by hardcore, and by this they meant the jersey scene.

I realize people here say emo is hardcore, but when STD is talking about hardcore, they're referring to that Jersey scene which wasn't emo. It's still different even though it's part of the same family.

More importantly, tracing a band's geneology doesn't do enough. You have to look at the kind of music they're playing, and what scene they're a part of. Taking Back Sunday is a part of that new Jersey scene that people refer to emo. It's a seperate scene, and it should be acknowledged as such. These bands do not exhibit the national evolution of the emo scene as they're not DIY or at least independent, and they aren't chaotic at all. They're mainstream and poppy because of the influences the Jersey scene has.


So to me it seems like you are the one ignoring that sounds expand. What do you think about that? On the one hand, I definitely see your point that emo be defined as part of hardcore and not pop-punk, but bands like The Promise Ring, Texas is the Reason and others connect the two.
I still do not see how the promise ring or texas is the reason really relate to bands like hawthorne heights. They don't sound the same, they don't even use the same types of lyrics. The real argument in this forum is that mainstream bands are emo, when they're not. Like I've said over and over, people aren't going to complain about a thread about these bands, but we do have a problem talking about pop-punk.

Even then, bands like the promise ring or texas is the reason that connect to genres don't prove that two genres are related. Those two bands just have varying influences (which more bands should). I mean, the mars volta has heavy salsa, prog, and punk influences, does that mean punk, salsa and prog rock are all related? No. It just means TMV is good at mixing a wide variety of music. I would say that the promise ring or Texas... are those kinds of bands that don't stick in one genre. good for them, but you can't use them to say that cookie cutter mainstream bands get to be emo.

where do we draw the line around what is emo and what is not, and why do we draw the line there? At least we should recognize that some of these bands are grandchildren of emo even if it doesn't make them emo.
I still disagree because I see no logical progression from the old dc scene to this new scene. they sound nothing alike. The new bands don't have the independent values of old emo. There is a paralell evolution in emo and this mainstream music. So you might say that they're related, but they're still not the same and as such, we shouldn't be talking about them here. I still don't agree in their relation, but that's not important for the rest of this post.

But, be careful using Q and Not U in this argument. Nobody's going to claim they're emo. I was just telling you that Dischord emo has influenced bands today. if anything, your use of a nonemo band influenced by emo proves me correct. Even if you can prove that these bands are influenced by real emo, then you're still going to have to show why they get to count as emo. Merely having influences is not enough. You have to be a part of the scene or at least sound like the genre. these new school bands don't.

Even if we say these bands are grandchildren of emo, that doesn't mean we talk about them in an emo forum because they still aren't. I mean, technically isn't all rock music the grandchildren of blues? We wouldn't go talking about death metal in a blues forum, now would we? If a forum is genre specific, we talk about that specific genre, and not about what bands that genre influenced.

[outofnothing]

I think we pretty much agree with each other on everything. I don't really care what you or anyone call TBS. To be honest I don't listen to TBS or like them. I also don't listen to Hawthorne Heights, My Chemical Romance, or whatever it might be that you are referring to. All I care about is that the artist is pure and that their music is really coming from a sincere creative heart and not done from a place that is just catering to or marketing to a supposed audience. Past that all the genre stuff is really all just geeking out to me. That doesn't mean I don't do it, but still I have to come back to that point whenever I stray.

From what I can tell, TBS / My Chemical Romance / Fallout Boy or whoever all have their strengths and weaknesses dealing with maintaining their music as art versus just disposable commerce. And its debatable what those artists really mean to their fans or the legacy they will leave when they are gone. I am rather skeptical that they will truly have a long-term impact on anything.

On the other side of the coin, I appreciate what Dischord has done. I don't exactly consider the Dischord sound equal to the emo sound if that's what you're saying? Because I do think Dischord has had an enormous impact and influence. If you would have asked me what has been more influential in music, Dischord or emo, I would probably have said Dischord.

You're both right and wrong about people not saying "oh it comes from Mineral" and instead saying "it has emotional lyrics." It depends on who you ask. You are right that if you look in mainstream articles there are kids all over the place talking about emotional lyrics. But in other circles, Mineral--or whoever it might be--is referenced. We agree on that.

I don't think we're really having an argument. At least I'm not. I have basically been saying "Why Bother?" and it seems like that got interpreted as "Hey these other things are emo too."

But like I said. It sounds like we agree on most everything else.

[Blake Solomon]

Damn, you guys have been working hard for your money.

[x togepi x]

Yeah I saw where a lot of what we were saying was the same thing in different ways and I got confused. At the end of my last post, I had no idea what we were even disagreeing about at times. I kept thinking to myself "why is he talking about all these bands that are already accepted in the emo scene so much and not talking about the trendy bands?"

I'd agree that dischord is more influential than emo. They're probably the most influential indie label that I can think of.

I still have never heard anyone reference Mineral when talking about the new trend of music. I had always felt that these new bands were influenced mainly by pop punk with a little bit of hardcore thrown in for good measure, so I was confused when you brought up that point. I mean, maybe you're right and some of them can be traced back....but I think that you have a better chance tracing certain indie bands back to Midwest Emo than you do a fake-emo band.

I was just confused, which is why I misinterpreted you. I had thought that if you were saying why bother that you'd just not respond. I mean, it's cool that you did, don't think that I'm saying you shouldn't have, it just sent me a mixed signal.

[punklet2101]

I don't see how emo can at all be construed to be indie rock/pop punk. it isn't a punk pop genre. It's a subset of hardcore music.

What you're saying is a thin line is what's commonly known as Midwest Emo...which is really just a group of indie bands like Christie Front Drive that got lumped into the emo genre because of Sunny Day Real Estate's popularity.

Sunny Day Real Estate isn't even really emo, they just get lumped in because you can hear Dischord/post-hardcore riffs in their earlier work, especially on Diary.


rites of spring
saetia (i'm ignoring screamo since it's basically the same)
circle takes the square
hot cross
city of caterpillar
moss icon

I had a much better list, but I don't feel like typing it out, as i'm sure you're not just going to accept what I just said as truth. (hence the point of debate)


good job. this man knows his emo

[heyRomanticA__x]

This thread also needs to become a sticky.

[okheidi]

Everyone has a different personal definition of emo. Also, what you once thought was a proper definition for emo has probably changed at some point.

I really don't see the point in debating this; there's no settling it.

[heyRomanticA__x]

Everyone has a different personal definition of emo. Also, what you once thought was a proper definition for emo has probably changed at some point.

I really don't see the point in debating this; there's no settling it.

So I see you're adding your two cents? Well, that same argument has been used countless times ( in this thread and others ) and it has been proven wrong. Honestly, did you even read through the thread? I'm guessing no, because if you did, you would have realized how meaningless your post was.

[okheidi]

So I see you're adding your two cents? Well, that same argument has been used countless times ( in this thread and others ) and it has been proven wrong. Honestly, did you even read through the thread? I'm guessing no, because if you did, you would have realized how meaningless your post was.


I'm looking forward to reading your input that will soon be on page 25 of this thread.

Good luck.

[x togepi x]

So basically, you can't defend your viewpoint but feel like putting it out there anyway?

go read the part where I talked about the oxford english dictionary. unless you can answer that, you're wrong.

[okheidi]

It all just seems like a bit too much effort when, at best, all you might do is change a few minds.

[heyRomanticA__x]

It all just seems like a bit too much effort when, at best, all you might do is change a few minds.

Again, you feel like putting your viewpoint/idea out there, but not defending it? You're not going to change any minds like that.

Do yourself a favor and read through this thread.

[Dan CiTi]

In the fitting words for these therads: Swoon this is the same old blood rush with a new touch.
This is some intelligent, meaningful stuff people need to see BTW.

[heyRomanticA__x]

This is one of the most important threads in the forum, yet no one pays attention to it. Bump.

[the thread]

i agree with togepi on pretty much everything he has said. i havent really read through this whole thread, but im sure there are numerous links to FOURFA, because for me, that really helped me understand a little further about emo. but i really hate how people call anything that talks about girls, relationships, and wears eyeliner "emo". and i also hate how peopel argue over something so static and something that has a real foundation, and isnt some trendy term that kids just throw around, it really is a genre of music with a firm basis and background. thereupon, this is my list of emo bands:

STILL LIFE
RITES OF SPRING
MOSS ICON
INDIAN SUMMER
LINCOLN
SWING KIDS
I WOULD SET MYSELF ON FIRE FOR YOU
SAETIA
OFF MINOR
EVERGREEN
ANGEL HAIR
CLIKATAT IKATOWI
EMBRACE
HEROIN
MOHINDER
HONEYWELL
SHOTMAKER
JULIA
JUNE PAIK
L'ANTIETAM

thats not nearly it, not even close. but those are some of my favorites and some that i consider more influential than most. i see honeywell, shotmaker along with the SD bands yhat fostered the gritter movement, such as neil perry, usurp synapse, saetia, swing kids...etc. im all about drawing parallels and connections. but im sure i dont have to tell that to you folks.

[heyRomanticA__x]

You mentioned Heroin and Angel Hair. We are now official playground buddies.

[the thread]

You mentioned Heroin and Angel Hair. We are now official playground buddies.

im delighted.:)

[Venona]

i decided ever since i heard a commercial for some tv concert on VH1 say Three Doors Down mixed Southern Rock and Emo that the medias perception of music is wayyyyy out of touch and that i didnt care about genres
i fact is EMO IS A STUPID TERM
all music is emotional

i listen to Taking Back Sunday and Brand New but i Also listen to Circle Takes The Square and Trophy Scars
so i guess i listen to "emo" any way you look at it

[broken_dream98]

OMG...what you ppl need to do to make ppl listen is stop writing a freaking book everytime you post something and get to the freaking point of what you want to say!!!!!!!!!.......you ppl made this forum the most boring book ever.......!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

[x togepi x]

i think reading ten million threads about the starting line and the format is way more boring.

[modtang]

I hope it's ok to bump this as I've found your arguments in this thread interesting to read. I have a couple of questions and I figure someone here might have a hope in hell of answering, or at least giving me some opinions/feedback, without it turning into an all-out flame-war.

I'd never heard the word 'emo' used until the late 1990s. I'd been a fan of what is commonly referred to as alternative/indie music for many years when I first heard 'emo' used to describe Sunny Day Real Estate. Until then I'd always heard them referred to as alternative or indie. I'd like to know when/why they suddenly became known as an emo band, even though they don't fit the traditional mould. As previously mentioned in this thread, some of their influences may have come from post-hardcore/emo bands but I can't understand why they ever got the label.

I think the problems with the definition of the genre began there. A lot of other bands that sounded a little bit like SDRE (eg. Jimmy Eat World) got lumped into the genre, and because JEW did some EPs/splits with some other similar emo bands (eg. Mineral) the problem was just compounded.

The major question is why bands like Taking Back Sunday, The Used, My Chemical Romance and Fall Out Boy (just some examples) are all now referred to as emo. None of them really have much in common musically, therefore it makes no sense that they would all be called emo. I think some of the early TBS records could have second generation emo influences, but they are so far removed from traditional emo bands that there is no logic in their label.

I also disagree with calling them punk-pop. Punk-pop is more like Blink 182 or Yellowcard. Punk, with mainstream pop elements. They are more alternative rock than anything else, but since that label has been bastardized by more mainstream bands now it hardly suits either. I think what Alt_fate83 said sums it up well:

you either have to accept the fact that the Emo you know is dead or is close to dying! If you won't accept that then you have to realize that there are bands out there who have to be classified in the same genre as the very bands that influenced them, at least until a genres is created for them.
I think the only solution is to create some new emo sub-genres. I like to call FOB, MCR and The Used "MTV emo", or MTVemo. ;)

It's obvious the MTV emo bands have little in common with the bands mentioned in the sputnikmusic (http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226512) thread but as they don't seem to fit anywhere else it's just easier to label them that way, and that's exactly what's happened. The whole commericalization of emo - the "fashion" and the "scene" - is what has made it into the horror that it has become. It's become a poor excuse for a goth rip-off with the all-black everything. It's a horrible, horrible trend that needs to die. I don't mind some of the music. In fact, I love some of it, but the stigma of saying you listen to 'emo' music in this day and age is almost too much to bear.

I have to agree with Venona... I like traditional emo as well as some of what is now called emo, and a whole lot inbetween. Thanks for some intelligent discussion on this subject.... FINALLY! It's good to know not everyone thinks emo is a fashion statement or what you are when you're 14 and depressed.

[x togepi x]

I should be doing my final for my night class tonight....but I like procrastinating.



I'd never heard the word 'emo' used until the late 1990s. I'd been a fan of what is commonly referred to as alternative/indie music for many years when I first heard 'emo' used to describe Sunny Day Real Estate. Until then I'd always heard them referred to as alternative or indie. I'd like to know when/why they suddenly became known as an emo band, even though they don't fit the traditional mould. As previously mentioned in this thread, some of their influences may have come from post-hardcore/emo bands but I can't understand why they ever got the label.

First off, the reason the word wasn't in common use until the 1990s was because emo was an extremely underground form of music. the early bands barely stayed together for a year. for example, rites of spring played about 10 shows.

We don't see the early bands considering themselves emo in zines or whatever mainly because at the time when emo started, the word emo was an insult. Tough hardcore guys thought they were bad ass for making fun of this emotional hardcore, so they'd call these bands emo. Not having a real genre title, the word emo stuck to describe this form of hardcore that has been constantly broadening since the late 80s.

However, the first instance in literature of the word emo being used was in the early to mid 90s (I think it was 95), where a music magazine talked about emo in the context that regulars here do. They defined it as bands like fugazi or as a form of hardcore.

What happened was, as fugazi was considered emo even though they as a band basically left the punk/hardcore genre, many other bands who had been influenced by fugazi like Sunny Day started to get the emo title given to them. Even though technically, they're not part of the genre, SDRE are considered emo because they came out of the scene, they just sound different.

I think the problems with the definition of the genre began there. A lot of other bands that sounded a little bit like SDRE (eg. Jimmy Eat World) got lumped into the genre, and because JEW did some EPs/splits with some other similar emo bands (eg. Mineral) the problem was just compounded.

well yeah this is pretty much right. What happened is a lot of bands in the early 90s were influenced by emo. These bands happened to exist in different regions of the country, so a different style of music was developed. This is the indie-emo people talk about. It's called Midwest Emo...but it's really a form of indie rock instead of a true form of emo.

what happened was somewhere in writing about these bands, people got lazy. They dropped the Midwest prefix and just started calling the bands emo. For example, reviews of Christie Front Drive said that CFD was the kind of music emo kids put on to make out to. This lead other people to believe that CFD was an emo band. By dropping the midwest prefix, which differentiated this indie rock from emo, as well as acknowledging its influence on the genre, the definitional problem that we have today was born.

The major question is why bands like Taking Back Sunday, The Used, My Chemical Romance and Fall Out Boy (just some examples) are all now referred to as emo. None of them really have much in common musically, therefore it makes no sense that they would all be called emo. I think some of the early TBS records could have second generation emo influences, but they are so far removed from traditional emo bands that there is no logic in their label.

the logic is weak at best. when asked what made midwest bands emo, most people said "well, they must be more emotional." These people knew nothing of true emo because of the lazy journalism. Thus, instead of basing the genre on music theory like we should, people started saying that any band that's "emotional" was emo. That's why TBS, The Used, MCR and FOB are considered emo because they act like they wear their heart on their sleeve.

I also disagree with calling them punk-pop. Punk-pop is more like Blink 182 or Yellowcard. Punk, with mainstream pop elements.

They are pop punk though. especially fall out boy. you can't tell me there aren't mainstream pop elements in these new bands. the songs use simple verse/chorus/verse song structure. it tends to be more melodic. that's why they do the sing/scream thing instead of the loud/quiet dynamic found in real emo bands. pop is there. Pop punk is so wide of a genre.

They are more alternative rock than anything else, but since that label has been bastardized by more mainstream bands now it hardly suits either. I think what Alt_fate83 said sums it up well:


I think the only solution is to create some new emo sub-genres. I like to call FOB, MCR and The Used "MTV emo", or MTVemo. ;)

I already covered that quote from Alt_Fate before. You should probably read my response before you say it sums everything up well. Emo's not dying. There are more real emo bands now than there have ever been. The scene in europe is amazingly strong. There's a scene in australia, and japan. labels like level-plane are still going strong. there's even a parallel evolution in emo music that goes completely ignored if you claim its dead. Emo hasn't disappered, it's become continually broader and broader with some bands taking a chaos element like orchid, others going more post-rock like envy and others being extremely experimental. My point is, there's way too much creativity in the scene for it to be considered dead.

also, those bands Alt_Fate was talking about aren't influenced by emo. they're influenced by pop punk/hardcore from Jersey and i covered that.

However, using emo in their genre title doesn't get rid of the problem at all, because lazy people and writers will keep dropping the MTV and just calling them emo. Besides, that title doesn't even make sense. If something has emo on the title, it should be influenced by emo, and this music isn't.

I call it popcore or pop punk.

[quote=It's obvious the MTV emo bands have little in common with the bands mentioned in the sputnikmusic (http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226512) thread but as they don't seem to fit anywhere else it's just easier to label them that way, and that's exactly what's happened. The whole commericalization of emo - the "fashion" and the "scene" - is what has made it into the horror that it has become. It's become a poor excuse for a goth rip-off with the all-black everything. It's a horrible, horrible trend that needs to die. I don't mind some of the music. In fact, I love some of it, but the stigma of saying you listen to 'emo' music in this day and age is almost too much to bear.
[/quote]

I just tell people i listen to emo. they try and make fun of me and I'll either say "hey, you like audioslave, shut up" or play them some real emo and watch their face as they realize it's a lot heavier than any music they like.

[heyRomanticA__x]

I just tell people i listen to emo. they try and make fun of me and I'll either say "hey, you like audioslave, shut up" or play them some real emo and watch their face as they realize it's a lot heavier than any music they like.

That always works. Nice job togepi, classic post.

[Bean]

good luck with that. Sometimes these bands are pretty hard to get into. I'll admit, the first time I heard Circle Takes the Square I couldn't handle more then 30 seconds. Of course, the second time was in concert, so I got lucky.
That's my exact experience with the band.
I also have to give you props for this quote you made in the other thread:
That quote said something about people bashing on 'emo', like the 'Fuck You Emo Kid' shit, being stupid...and uh...I agree.

Very insightful and inspiring thread. I listen to a few of these bands, but I'm glad I found AP and you guys. I'll be digging up this music and more for...as long as I'm alive.

[x togepi x]

thanks you guys

[Zeran]

i decided ever since i heard a commercial for some tv concert on VH1 say Three Doors Down mixed Southern Rock and Emo that the medias perception of music is wayyyyy out of touch and that i didnt care about genres
i fact is EMO IS A STUPID TERM
all music is emotional

i listen to Taking Back Sunday and Brand New but i Also listen to Circle Takes The Square and Trophy Scars
so i guess i listen to "emo" any way you look at it
hold up hold up...you mean to say that three doors down is NOT emo? :O

[modtang]

togepi, I think you're the first person I've "met" online that can back up their emo statements with actual facts. Most people just recite the same BS they've heard other people say because they want to sound cool. You actually know what you're talking about and it's nice to see. :)

There's a scene in australia, and japan.

Where is this scene in Australia that you speak of. Sure, there are emo bands in Australia but a "scene"? Surely this can't be on the east coast unless it's so far underground only 12 people know about it?

[heyRomanticA__x]

If you do a google search for Midwest Emo (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=midwest+emo&btnG=Google+Search), this is the 4th page that comes up.

[raven_b]

geez lol howcome no one likes Panic! At The Disco?

[graceregalbuto]

people just slap a label on everything these days, its stupid. Why can't music, just be music?!

[x togepi x]

You're 15. "these days" have been your entire life. get over it.

[heyRomanticA__x]

Music is music, but genres, label's if you must, are necessary. If I called a polar bear a fruit cake, that would piss off a few polar bear scientists.

[lawofaverages]

why is there always a thread about this on every music forum that involves emo/screamo? this one is almost as bad as the shitty screamo groups on myspace arguing about what screamo is.

[Drink_To_This]

Emo (an abbreviation of "emotionally-driven Hardcore punk") is a term now broadly used to describe almost any form of guitar-driven alternative rock that expresses emotions beyond traditional punk's limited emotional palette of alienation and rage. It is also used to describe fans of this genre, most commonly teenagers. (e.g., emo kid). The actual term "emo" originated in the mid-1980s D.C. scene, with the band Rites of Spring, as well as bands such as Fugazi, Moss Icon, and Antioch Arrow. ...

[funnylittlefrog]

my opinion:there's a difference between emo as in emo music and emo as in emo lifestyle. not everything emo's listen to is emo. if u find an emo that listens to bfmv that doesn't make bfmv emo-they're still a wannabe metal band.same with three doors down. or nickleback. or other stuff like that.

and i do agree that emo is a stupid term to describe music.what is music without emotions?damn, shitney spears has emotions in her lyrics, is she emo 2?

dang, togepi, u know your stuff!B-)

[offthewall13]

personally, i believe it is up to the bands themselves to define what they are. i dont mean that they should put in big letters on ther cds, WE ARE EMO. or WE ARE POPPUNK for that matter. genres of music are the fan's interpretation of what a band is. there is no way to really pin down a genre, because different fans will say different things.



the band i used to be in (if forced to i would describe them as "post-hardcore"), we played a show for some girls party. most of the ppl there wer wat people would call "scene". they loved us. then we played in some local battle of the bands. the 3 judges wer in their late 30's 40's i suppose, and had no clue what was going on with modern music. the other bands wer ok, some played covers of modern songs, some played covers of classic rock songs. one threesome had a really good guitarist, and played his own, classicrock/blues songs. however the bassist and drumer did not know how to play, by my standards. my dad, whos 53, said he fell asleep for every single band. until my band went on. a bunch of our friends from school wer there (the "scene" kids) and they went crazy just wen we wer setting up. each band got to play 4 songs or 20 minutes, whichever came first. however, alot of other bands that played classic rock songs wer told to stay on longer. we wer gunna play 3 songs at around 3 minutes each and our closing song was 5 minutes= 14 minutes, plus talking. so we get on there and we play our first two songs and by the end everyone in the crowd, the adults even are standing up. our friends were making there way to the front to start moshing. we had been up there approx 7 minutes. and one of the judges was like "u guys got 5 minutes" what the fuck?! so we finished our set, the crowd going crazy, and everyone was like, u guys definatly won it, even the adults and the other bands. i signed my first autograph for a 4 year old girl named dolci. and then.... we didnt win.


not 1st. not 2nd. not 3rd. why? well becuase they didnt understand our music, our "genre". they (the judges) came from a different time where the music was based around the guitarist. in "our genre" its more based around putting our good songs, being a GOOD BAND. granted, i was personally unable to do any songwriting as the other guitarist controled everything, and thus i was unable to put in any good leads, but still, it got the crowd going. but apparently we wer too loud/hard for them.


i am no long with that band, becuase a. my best friend/lead singer has moved to NC, and b. its a hostile evironment where nothing good can really be accomplished because of the other guitarist's ego. anyway, they recently played a show where they had a bunch of metal/hardcore bands open up for them, and by far they wer the softest band there.

ppl at the battle of the bands said we wer metal. guys at ther recent show wud probably say they wer like emo pussies or something, i dont know.

genre is up to intepretation. i dont around saying i love emo, because ppl will be like oh go slit your wrists or some other stereotype. when people ask me, i say i listen to rock. which is true. i listen to plenty of different sub-genres of rock.

in my band that i am putting together now, and my songwriting i do, i dont try to be like "oh lets make this emo" or "oh yea were soooo punk". i believe that bands define themselves by the songs they put out. just like the songs, their genre is open to interpretation. noone will ever agree on a meaning.


i dont think bands should be labeled based on like, stereotypes. i think that genres should be based on the music. are the lyrics emotionally honest? do they do some screaming as well as singing? do they come from a hardcore background? then maybe you have a emo/screamo/post-hardcore band. do the band tend to make radio friendly songs with plenty of hooks? do they come from a punk background? then maybe you have a pop-punk band. thats what genres should be. not, whether the band members all have mohawks and liberty spikes, or they wear girls jeans, or they are on mtv all the time, or they only wear slayer shirts. those are the band member's personally preferences, not the music itself.

and for the last time emo is not a group of pussies that sit in their rooms and cry while they jackoff and slit their wrists! emo is a type of rock. all music is really the expression of one's emotions.

people that sit in their rooms and cry and cut are just that, people that sit in their rooms and cry and cut. i mean, not that im being derogatory towards those people. all of us go through bad times, depressed times. people just need to realize that different people handle it differently, and some people have a harder time coming back from depressions than others.

[x togepi x]

nope, you're still wrong Mr. Probably A Gimmick Account. emo is hardcore.

what is it about the teenage years that makes you think you know more about music than someone who's majoring in music? kids are fucking stupid.

[heyRomanticA__x]

Damn, I just read that kids post..gross.

[HplessRomntic]

labels are lame!
i have given up on trying to explain the whole meaning. its retarded argueing with where the genre orriginated. people are always so supprised that it evolved from punk rock (minor threat) to be some what exact. if you look back thats around the time emoxcore started to come about. If you listen to emo expect to be ridiculed by everybody that knows absolutly nothing about the genre.

[x togepi x]

actually, pretty much every person I've talked to about this in real life ends up agreeing with me instead of mtv. especially when I sit people down and have them listen to it.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Yeah, and since I have a decent collection of old emo vinyls I can actually make it interesting and link in one of my hobbies. So not only can I easily clear up th emisconception, but I can have some fun showin gmy nerdy stuff of while doing it.

[lawofaverages]

Yeah, and since I have a decent collection of old emo vinyls I can actually make it interesting and link in one of my hobbies. So not only can I easily clear up th emisconception, but I can have some fun showin gmy nerdy stuff of while doing it.

lol, vinyls

[lawofaverages]

genre is up to intepretation.



hardly. the purpose of genres is for classification. and by classification, there are specific requirements needed to get into the genre. its kind of like classifying animals. i dont classify an iguana as a mammal because thats the way i want to intepret it. classification is for organization, and not for one's own opinion.

[Alibi. Alibis.]

actually, pretty much every person I've talked to about this in real life ends up agreeing with me instead of mtv. especially when I sit people down and have them listen to it.

MTV sucks. It's killing music.

[lawofaverages]

bump to get rid of lame threads on first page

[heyRomanticA__x]

I second that notion lawofaverages.

[rocktometal]

This has to be one of the most retarded things I have ever seen.

agreed. everyone knows that genres are useless, overated catagories ment to link common bands under an "umbrella" (if you will) or to describe a rising style. just consder modern emo a recarnation of the old term used to describe the emo bands of the 80's.

[x togepi x]

agreed. everyone knows that genres are useless, overated catagories ment to link common bands under an "umbrella" (if you will) or to describe a rising style. just consder modern emo a recarnation of the old term used to describe the emo bands of the 80's.

first off, genre's aren't useless. they tell us what things sound like. it makes it a lot easier to talk about bands. Your logic to say genres are uselesss negates the entire purpose of language. The word emo is a symbol for the various conventions found within the emo scene. It's a lot easier to say City of Caterpillar is an emo band than to describe what emo is. Hence the idea of a genre.

For it to be a reincarnation it'd have to describe bands that sound the same or at least hold the same values that the original emo bands did. Putting out generic music about slitting your wrists so you can get on MTV faster is not what Embrace or Rites of Spring stood for.

I think people need to look into some linguistic theory before they go spouting off their stupid ideas about genres being pointless.

[Music Ya Wai]

first off, genre's aren't useless. they tell us what things sound like. it makes it a lot easier to talk about bands. Your logic to say genres are uselesss negates the entire purpose of language. The word emo is a symbol for the various conventions found within the emo scene. It's a lot easier to say City of Caterpillar is an emo band than to describe what emo is. Hence the idea of a genre.

For it to be a reincarnation it'd have to describe bands that sound the same or at least hold the same values that the original emo bands did. Putting out generic music about slitting your wrists so you can get on MTV faster is not what Embrace or Rites of Spring stood for.

I think people need to look into some linguistic theory before they go spouting off their stupid ideas about genres being pointless.

bump

[rocktometal]

first off, genre's aren't useless. they tell us what things sound like. it makes it a lot easier to talk about bands. Your logic to say genres are uselesss negates the entire purpose of language. The word emo is a symbol for the various conventions found within the emo scene. It's a lot easier to say City of Caterpillar is an emo band than to describe what emo is. Hence the idea of a genre.

For it to be a reincarnation it'd have to describe bands that sound the same or at least hold the same values that the original emo bands did. Putting out generic music about slitting your wrists so you can get on MTV faster is not what Embrace or Rites of Spring stood for.

I think people need to look into some linguistic theory before they go spouting off their stupid ideas about genres being pointless.

from what i understand, i totally disagree. for one you just reworded what i said, but used it to try to prove your point, i'll even line it up for you:
i wrote: "genres are......categories meant to link common bands"
you wrote: "they (genres) tell us what things sound like."
i don't mind you arguing with me, but get something original. secondly i stated that modern emo was the recarnation of the "term" not of the genre.

on my side i hold that genres are pointless in that they are too intangible. most bands consider genres reidiculous, and don't care how they are categorized, because most bands combine a few if not several different genres together to form their sound, so they aren't categorized by one genre. and so then you get death metal, black metal, doom metal, nu metal, speed metal, power metal, industrial metal, alternative metal, gothic metal, celtic metal, classic metal, thrash metal, dark metal...... you see where im going? there are so many genres that it has become meaingless, suddenly a band can change from one genre to another depending on the song they play, and although i may not know much about linguitic theory, it seems to me that the process got screwed up somewhere.

and what does wrist cutting have to do with genres? thats like saying alice cooper belongs in the 'piss' genre cause he drank urine on stage. the music should determine the genre, not the lifestyle of its band or fans.

[x togepi x]

from what i understand, i totally disagree. for one you just reworded what i said, but used it to try to prove your point, i'll even line it up for you:
i wrote: "genres are......categories meant to link common bands"
you wrote: "they (genres) tell us what things sound like."
i don't mind you arguing with me, but get something original. secondly i stated that modern emo was the recarnation of the "term" not of the genre.

first off, your argument that there are too many genres has been made in this thread many times, and many times i and many other people in this thread have answered that point...so before ranting about originality.

secondly, of course i repeated part of your argument. A little logic lesson for you. Arguments are made of some premises and one conclusion. I borrowed your premise, that genres are categories meant to link common bands" and used it as a premise in my argument which you obviously missed in your rant.

I'll diagram it for you.

P1: Genres tell us what bands sound like.
P2. Genres allow us to talk about music, as they are classicfication system
Conclusion: Without genres, we can't talk about music and don't know what certain bands that we've never heard of sound like.

I know that it looks rather weak, but it's a lot stronger than anything you've "come up" with. To illustrate, the past two weeks, i've been posting out of a computer lab on campus without headphones or speakers. This meant that i couldn't readily listen to bands people mentioned, I only had their genre to go by. As I haven't heard of every band people talk about here, i need those genres to understand what's going on.

on my side i hold that genres are pointless in that they are too intangible.

and i hold that all language is intangible. the very words you use to create your sentences do not really exist in the material world, they're just as intangible as emo. Obviously that doesn't defeat your argument as a whole, but I am showing you that you, yourself use intangibles to explain yourself in the real world and on this forum, therefore, you should obviously see how a genre works.

a genre works because it's intangible...it's supposed to be. that's how we can keep them from changing. obviously music changes in the real world, but genres stay static. that's what's awesome about classification systems.

it's like the one we use to classify animals. A long time ago, there were apes that humans evolved from. Human and "whatever those apes were called" are classifications that did not change event hough humanity itself evolved. If human evolution continues and a new species greater than humans develops, the word human would still represent us, and the new species name would represent that new species, why? because those terms are intangible.

that's why i laugh at your notion of somethign being "too intangible". That really doesn't make any sense when you're talking about language.

More importantly, I will tell you that genres aren't really that intangible (other than them being words) because there are very specific boundaries for emo that are made up in musical theory. Compare that to your name "rocktometal" which is very vague and ambigous. What does that even mean? Are you Nickelback to Dragonforce? Are you The Beatles to Pantera, what?

see what i mean? your way involves way too much ambiguity as the terms rock and metal are extremely broad, as is hardcore,. thus we made subgenres like emo, sxe, youth crew, grind, etc so we can better understand what the hell we're talking about.

most bands consider genres reidiculous,

because bands exist in a realm outside of classification. People don't make art to be classified, they make it to make art. Us, the spectators classify it in order to have discussions. So yes, a band would think a genre is stupid, because they don't set out to stay within a genre's limits (which you later say,a nd will probably accuse me of beign unoriginal for agreeing again).



and don't care how they are categorized, because most bands combine a few if not several different genres together to form their sound, so they aren't categorized by one genre.

You're right, but we tend to classify them by what genre they write most of their songs in. There are crossover bands, the genre system isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than randomly saying "let's talk about music. i like Miles Davis. he plays music. oh really? Melt-banana also plays music. you might like them if you like Miles Davis. No shit? yeah man do it."

And to prove my point, melt-banana once covered a ska song. Nobody considered them to be a ska band because of that one band, they still classified them by what most of their songs sounded like.



and so then you get death metal, black metal, doom metal, nu metal, speed metal, power metal, industrial metal, alternative metal, gothic metal, celtic metal, classic metal, thrash metal, dark metal...... you see where im going? there are so many genres that it has become meaingless,

no. your way is meaningless. The fact that people have created all these new genres proves my point. Those names were needed because new bands popped up that soudned different enough to require a new label to be classified under when we started talking about them.

To use my animal example again. There are literally thousands of species of insects. They're different enough that we don't call them all bugs.

Nu-metal doesn't sound like black metal which doesnt' sound like power metal, which doesn't sound like industrial which doesn't sound like classic metal which doesn't sound like speed metal. just like emo doesn't sound like youth crew which doesn't sound like metalcore which doesn't sound like hardcore punk.


although i may not know much about linguitic theory, it seems to me that the process got screwed up somewhere.


language is fundamentally screwed up, because it was a system created by humans over thousands of years...of course there's a lot of mistakes. like, who the fuck came up with the idea of silent letters for spelling of words? or how some words can be spelled the same but be pronounced differently and have compeltely different meanings? that's all fucked up.

but, unless you're changing the system for the better...ie: not using the very words who's intangibility you're criticising, you offer nothing to the table but whining that you don't like the way things are. If you come up witha new linguistic system, i'll totally buy all your arguments. but you won't because you can't.

[rocktometal]

and i hold that all language is intangible. the very words you use to create your sentences do not really exist in the material world, they're just as intangible as emo. Obviously that doesn't defeat your argument as a whole, but I am showing you that you, yourself use intangibles to explain yourself in the real world and on this forum, therefore, you should obviously see how a genre works.

a genre works because it's intangible...it's supposed to be. that's how we can keep them from changing. obviously music changes in the real world, but genres stay static. that's what's awesome about classification systems.

it's like the one we use to classify animals. A long time ago, there were apes that humans evolved from. Human and "whatever those apes were called" are classifications that did not change event hough humanity itself evolved. If human evolution continues and a new species greater than humans develops, the word human would still represent us, and the new species name would represent that new species, why? because those terms are intangible.

that's why i laugh at your notion of somethign being "too intangible". That really doesn't make any sense when you're talking about language.

More importantly, I will tell you that genres aren't really that intangible (other than them being words) because there are very specific boundaries for emo that are made up in musical theory. Compare that to your name "rocktometal" which is very vague and ambigous. What does that even mean? Are you Nickelback to Dragonforce? Are you The Beatles to Pantera, what?

see what i mean? your way involves way too much ambiguity as the terms rock and metal are extremely broad, as is hardcore,. thus we made subgenres like emo, sxe, youth crew, grind, etc so we can better understand what the hell we're talking about.

You're right, but we tend to classify them by what genre they write most of their songs in. There are crossover bands, the genre system isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than randomly saying "let's talk about music. i like Miles Davis. he plays music. oh really? Melt-banana also plays music. you might like them if you like Miles Davis. No shit? yeah man do it."

And to prove my point, melt-banana once covered a ska song. Nobody considered them to be a ska band because of that one band, they still classified them by what most of their songs sounded like.


To use my animal example again. There are literally thousands of species of insects. They're different enough that we don't call them all bugs.

Nu-metal doesn't sound like black metal which doesnt' sound like power metal, which doesn't sound like industrial which doesn't sound like classic metal which doesn't sound like speed metal. just like emo doesn't sound like youth crew which doesn't sound like metalcore which doesn't sound like hardcore punk.

language is fundamentally screwed up, because it was a system created by humans over thousands of years...of course there's a lot of mistakes. like, who the fuck came up with the idea of silent letters for spelling of words? or how some words can be spelled the same but be pronounced differently and have compeltely different meanings? that's all fucked up.

but, unless you're changing the system for the better...ie: not using the very words who's intangibility you're criticising, you offer nothing to the table but whining that you don't like the way things are. If you come up witha new linguistic system, i'll totally buy all your arguments. but you won't because you can't.

i gotta give in. you know a hell of a lot more then i do, and so argueing with you just makes me look stupid, so even though i don't agree with all of it, it does make sence, and i concede genres do serve a purpose:they are catagories ment to link common bands. i gotta tell you that miles davis paragraph was good, you could of just written that and won me over.

[x togepi x]

well in your defense, i am double majoring in philosophy and music, which means i end up writing posts relating linguistic theory and music.

[asthesoulman]

this thread is severely hurting my head.

[r0ckl0bster]

haha wall of text dnr
im just gonna say i agree with the philosophizer

[Nevuk]

Nice major.

[indexfor...]

well in your defense, i am double majoring in philosophy and music, which means i end up writing posts relating linguistic theory and music.
philosophy eh...

who's your favorite author

[Bitter_Clinger]

As i've read through this thread, I've come to a few conclusions...

A: Most people have no clue as to what Emo either is or isn't...

B: x_togepi_x is actually a pretty sharp kid and has done his homework on the classifications and sub-classifications of the mid to late 80's (the original!!) post hardcore scene...

C: No one has mentioned Maxmillian Colby.. ;-(

D: I get angry when people hi-jack terms and labels from something very meaningful to me and attach those labels and terms to things that are completely un-related and irrelevant.

E: I must be getting old...

P.S. www.fourfa.com (http://www.fourfa.com) ... Go Read Up Fools!!!

[AP_Punk]

old-ish thread is old-ish.

neat thread bump!

[Rawrr]

Emo is Twilight, nothing else.

[Rawrr]

P.S. www.fourfa.com (http://www.fourfa.com) ... Go Read Up Fools!!!
AKA a site people can read and then act like they know what the genre was without actually listening to any of the bands.

[Bitter_Clinger]

AKA a site people can read and then act like they know what the genre was without actually listening to any of the bands.

Who needs to pretend... Interestingly enough, I was 21 and playing in an Emo band by the time you were even born...

[Rawrr]

Who needs to pretend... Interestingly enough, I was 21 and playing in an Emo band by the time you were even born...
I'm not knocking you at all dude, you seem like an awesome dude, I respect you for being in the "scene" for as long as you have been, thats cool. But no doubt that people go to fourfa and act like they know something, seriousy, fourfas been around for a while.

[Nevuk]

Who needs to pretend... Interestingly enough, I was 21 and playing in an Emo band by the time you were even born...
Just curious, what band did you play in? I've heard a lot of the early ones, but there are plenty I've yet to hear.