The whole Jason Grimsley thing

[DaveFeelsRight]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2474247


Yikes.

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

this will make some people happy and some people sad, but there are reports saying that one of the names mentioned in Grimsleys snitching is Chris Mihlfeld. Mihfeld apparently has also been Pujols' personal trainer since he was drafted in 1999.

if this is true, it sucks.

[crit]

this will make some people happy and some people sad, but there are reports saying that one of the names mentioned in Grimsleys snitching is Chris Mihlfeld. Mihfeld apparently has also been Pujols' personal trainer since he was drafted in 1999.

if this is true, it sucks.
I really hope Pujols is clean.

[LeftWideOpen]

that'd be terrible, clearstuff.

how come espn isnt all over this? (the pujols connection)

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

i dont know, they probably have a lot more of their asses to cover than deadspin does.

and the guy who runs deadspin, the guy that posted the story, is a huge Cards fan.

[xearlynovemberx]

I really hope Pujols is clean.

so do i

[bigmike]

jeff nelson and ozzie guillen need to get a fucking grip and quit shit talking Jason Grimsley. Let's see them look the feds in the face and not give up names and risk going to jail and throwing his life away like he has his major league career. they need to seriously shut the fuck up. and i love ozzie guillen.

[crit]

jeff nelson and ozzie guillen need to get a fucking grip and quit shit talking Jason Grimsley. Let's see them look the feds in the face and not give up names and risk going to jail and throwing his life away like he has his major league career. they need to seriously shut the fuck up. and i love ozzie guillen.

right on. i couldn't agree more.

[wessa]

jeff nelson and ozzie guillen need to get a fucking grip and quit shit talking Jason Grimsley. Let's see them look the feds in the face and not give up names and risk going to jail and throwing his life away like he has his major league career. they need to seriously shut the fuck up. and i love ozzie guillen.

agreed, if any of them had to sit down and talk to the feds and have them warn you of going to jail, those guys would have gave up names as well. Personally, i do not really mind when guys give up names of other people doing wrong. Some people considering it snitching, but who cares, those guys did something wrong, if they got caught in any way it is ultimately their own fault.

[Split2nd]

Here's the deadspin article on the Pujols thing. dead spin (http://www.deadspin.com/sports/baseball/so-weve-got-some-affidavit-names-179400.php)

[bigmike]

Fuck, I give him credit for refusing to wear a wire. I'd basically lick their nuts while wearing a wire for a week straight to avoid jail time.

[DaveFeelsRight]

Alot of people are saying he should keep his mouth shut, but didnt he name names already?

[bigmike]

Alot of people are saying he should keep his mouth shut, but didnt he name names already?
yeah, that's why they're saying he should keep his mouth shut. To just "bring himself down, not others." fuck that.

[FondestMemory]

if the whole wire thing is true about only trying to get dirt on bonds, that's bullshit. i think there's more pressing issues the feds should be worrying about.

and i'm on the other side of the argument on people shit talking him giving names. he deserves shit for snitching. if you get caught, you're fucked. you take the shit. never, ever drag other people with you.

[LeftWideOpen]

jeff nelson and ozzie guillen need to get a fucking grip and quit shit talking Jason Grimsley. Let's see them look the feds in the face and not give up names and risk going to jail and throwing his life away like he has his major league career. they need to seriously shut the fuck up. and i love ozzie guillen.

i agree ...this whole "players code" thing shouldn't be worn as a badge when the issue at hand is illegal steroids. they've cheated the game and the fans ....everyone who is guilty deserves to be singled out and dealt with accordingly.

[bigmike]

if the whole wire thing is true about only trying to get dirt on bonds, that's bullshit. i think there's more pressing issues the feds should be worrying about.

and i'm on the other side of the argument on people shit talking him giving names. he deserves shit for snitching. if you get caught, you're fucked. you take the shit. never, ever drag other people with you.
no. You look the feds in the face and not give up names. THEN you can say Grimsley shouldn't snitch.
This whole "players code" thing is bullshit. This isn't Bud Selig. This isn't MLB asking someone for names. These are the fucking feds. He's already thrown away what was left of his career, he needs to do what he can to not throw away the rest of his life by going by the "players code" and going to jail.

Besides, who doesn't he have a bigger committment to? his last teammates in Arizona, or some washed up reliever in Jeff Nelson who is playing in Chicago?

[LeftWideOpen]

no. You look the feds in the face and not give up names. THEN you can say Grimsley shouldn't snitch.
This whole "players code" thing is bullshit. This isn't Bud Selig. This isn't MLB asking someone for names. These are the fucking feds. He's already thrown away what was left of his career, he needs to do what he can to not throw away the rest of his life by going by the "players code" and going to jail.

Besides, who doesn't he have a bigger committment to? his last teammates in Arizona, or some washed up reliever in Jeff Nelson who is playing in Chicago?

i know, this is basically baseball's "stop snitching" campaign. it's the same code fellow gang bangers follow when they have knowledge of murder. yeah thats definitely something to mimic :rolleyes:

[FondestMemory]

no. You look the feds in the face and not give up names. THEN you can say Grimsley shouldn't snitch.
This whole "players code" thing is bullshit. This isn't Bud Selig. This isn't MLB asking someone for names. These are the fucking feds. He's already thrown away what was left of his career, he needs to do what he can to not throw away the rest of his life by going by the "players code" and going to jail.

Besides, who doesn't he have a bigger committment to? his last teammates in Arizona, or some washed up reliever in Jeff Nelson who is playing in Chicago?

i'm not saying anything about 'player's code.' and i don't care who it's too, a snitch is a snitch. i have something against snitching in any circumstance. it's a disgraceful, nonrespectable thing to do.

but basically, who cares if people like guillen and nelson are talking shit on him, i'm sure shit talking is extremely low on his list of concerns right now.

[bigmike]

i'm not saying anything about 'player's code.' and i don't care who it's too, a snitch is a snitch. i have something against snitching in any circumstance. it's a disgraceful, nonrespectable thing to do.

but basically, who cares if people like guillen and nelson are talking shit on him, i'm sure shit talking is extremely low on his list of concerns right now.
so he should have just forgotten about his life outside of baseball, you know, family, kids, wife, friends, parents, sibilings, and just kept quiet and gone to jail?

Hmm, keep quiet and go to prision, or 'snitch' and not go to jail. Tough choice.

[LeftWideOpen]

i'm not saying anything about 'player's code.' and i don't care who it's too, a snitch is a snitch. i have something against snitching in any circumstance. it's a disgraceful, nonrespectable thing to do.

but basically, who cares if people like guillen and nelson are talking shit on him, i'm sure shit talking is extremely low on his list of concerns right now.

so do you have something against snitching to bail yourself out? or snitching in general?

because if i saw a murder and were to report it, that would amount to snitching out the murderer. is that a disgraceful thing? am i not showing the murderer enough respect? i'm assuming you think so, because you said any circumstance. that's absolutely insane if that is indeed your position on the issue of snitching.

[lilhockeybro]

i dont really know of the guy at all.
he's not a big-name player, he even plays (played) on my local team.

but hey,

at least he was honest.

mmkay bye.

[FondestMemory]

so do you have something against snitching to bail yourself out? or snitching in general?

because if i saw a murder and were to report it, that would amount to snitching out the murderer. is that a disgraceful thing? am i not showing the murderer enough respect? i'm assuming you think so, because you said any circumstance. that's absolutely insane if that is indeed your position on the issue of snitching.

no, maybe it was worded wrong. if you witness a murder and report it, that's the right thing to do.

however, if you and a buddy commit a murder, and you're the one that gets caught. you bite the bullet.

so to answer your question, i have everything against snitching to bail yourself out.

[LeftWideOpen]

interesting sidenote to consider when hearing that jeff nelson is pissed off about the situation ...he was a teammate of Grimsley's when they were Yankees together. Maybe he knows he may be one of the guys going down next (or knows some of his former Yankee teammates could be going down). Reportedly it was many ex teammates who may be implicating.

[thejetstolehome]

interesting sidenote to consider when hearing that jeff nelson is pissed off about the situation ...he was a teammate of Grimsley's when they were Yankees together. Maybe he knows he may be one of the guys going down next (or knows some of his former Yankee teammates could be going down). Reportedly it was many ex teammates who may be implicating.

that thought ran through my head, too.

[bigmike]

interesting sidenote to consider when hearing that jeff nelson is pissed off about the situation ...he was a teammate of Grimsley's when they were Yankees together. Maybe he knows he may be one of the guys going down next (or knows some of his former Yankee teammates could be going down). Reportedly it was many ex teammates who may be implicating.
if he was one of the guys, you'd think he'd have more seasons than just 3 in which batters actually hit under .300 off him.

in the three seasons he did hold batters under .300 the averages were: .291, .294, .295

[preppyak]

if he was one of the guys, you'd think he'd have more seasons than just 3 in which batters actually hit under .300 off him.

in the three seasons he did hold batters under .300 the averages were: .291, .294, .295
hah...true
interesting sidenote to consider when hearing that jeff nelson is pissed off about the situation ...he was a teammate of Grimsley's when they were Yankees together. Maybe he knows he may be one of the guys going down next (or knows some of his former Yankee teammates could be going down). Reportedly it was many ex teammates who may be implicating.
I think that is more likely. If he was guilty, I'm fairly sure he'd avoid a Rafael Palmiero like deal where he says "don't snitch", but then is the next one taken down an turns over info himself

[ActorInThisPlay]

maybe Bonds won't get so much shit once people realize how many people in baseball actually are doing and did illegal things to better their performance.

[bigmike]

maybe Bonds won't get so much shit once people realize how many people in baseball actually are doing and did illegal things to better their performance.
i know how many people are doing it. but none of those people are approaching the most sacred record. but let's not turn it into a pro/against bonds thread.

[LeftWideOpen]

i know how many people are doing it. but none of those people are approaching the most sacred record. but let's not turn it into a pro/against bonds thread.

my thoughts exactly.

[ActorInThisPlay]

i know how many people are doing it. but none of those people are approaching the most sacred record. but let's not turn it into a pro/against bonds thread.
I know, I don't want to either. It's just that some people make it seem like he is the only one that ever did anything that was considered "cheating."

[bigmike]

I know, I don't want to either. It's just that some people make it seem like he is the only one that ever did anything that was considered "cheating."
right. i get what you're saying.

[lilhockeybro]

Ok People.

Jason Grimsley isnt even good.

you could ask any of our decent pitchers (Brandon Webb, Jose Valverde, etc.) a week ago who he was and they would say "who? he's on our team?!"

but on second thought, maybe since he sucks, it brings the issue closer to home (?)
ha.

[bigmike]

Ok People.

Jason Grimsley isnt even good.

you could ask any of our decent pitchers (Brandon Webb, Jose Valverde, etc.) a week ago who he was and they would say "who? he's on our team?!"

but on second thought, maybe since he sucks, it brings the issue closer to home (?)
ha.
Oh, so since he sucks his opinion/knowledge of other players is void. you're right.

Not to mention the the fact that your entire pitching staff, bullpen and starters, not named webb fucking suck and it's an anomaly that you're still even in the race.

[lilhockeybro]

dude- Detroit is never good at bseball.

Ever.

See where they are 3 months from now;)



..and yes, our pitching staff does suck.

[LeftWideOpen]

dude- Detroit is never good at bseball.

Ever.

See where they are 3 months from now;)



..and yes, our pitching staff does suck.

Where's Weber? Bring out the ban hammer. This kind of stupidity warrants such an action.

[bigmike]

dude- Detroit is never good at bseball.

Ever.

See where they are 3 months from now;)



..and yes, our pitching staff does suck.
haha. an arizona fan talking shit about another baseball fan. wow.

[lilhockeybro]

haha. an arizona fan talking shit about another baseball fan. wow.
Was i wrong in saying that the Detriot Tigers are never good at baseball (besides the exception of early this season)? Nope- i was right in saying that:rolleyes:

Chill your shit out dude.

No need to get whiny at me just because my post count is ridiculously lower than yours.

[FondestMemory]

Was i wrong in saying that the Detriot Tigers are never good at baseball (besides the exception of early this season)? Nope- i was right in saying that:rolleyes:

Chill your shit out dude.

No need to get whiny at me just because my post count is ridiculously lower than yours.

post count doesn't mean anything in here.

[bigmike]

Was i wrong in saying that the Detriot Tigers are never good at baseball (besides the exception of early this season)? Nope- i was right in saying that:rolleyes:

Chill your shit out dude.

No need to get whiny at me just because my post count is ridiculously lower than yours.
I was unaware that I made reference to your 'post count'. This isn't the general forum, it doesn't matter. What matter's here is not saying completely assinine statements. But, please, point this out if I did and wasn't paying attention.

And You're right. The Tigers have never, ever had a winning season. Ever. In 100 years we've never, ever been good. Minus, you know 1935 when we won the World Series. or 1945.
Or, 1968 when we won the world series, beating Bob Gibson who single handedly was responsible for changing the rules of the game (lowering the mound), to clinch the series.

And minus 1984 when we started 35-5, the best record ever after 40 games in the History of baseball and went on to win the world series.

Talk to me when your team has actually been around for more than a decade, kid.

[lilhockeybro]

We won the World Series in 2001...

i didnt say that the Tigers were never good, i said that they are never good.

mmkay this argument is lame and partially my fault for saying that jason grimsley sucks.

[bigmike]

We won the World Series in 2001...

i didnt say that the Tigers were never good, i said that they are never good.

mmkay this argument is lame and partially my fault for saying that jason grimsley sucks.
"are" would imply present tense, therefore your statement is completely wrong. Either way, dude, you look completely retarded. Good call on your part to just quit while you're behind.

[lilhockeybro]

"are" would imply present tense, therefore your statement is completely wrong. Either way, dude, you look completely retarded. Good call on your part to just quit while you're behind.

its cool to have someone admit partial responsibility and then be completely condescending to them.

[bigmike]

its cool to have someone admit partial responsibility and then be completely condescending to them.
yeah, post counts don't matter in here, but being condescending is pretty much a staple.

[LeftWideOpen]

its cool to have someone admit partial responsibility and then be completely condescending to them.

yeah but bro, the entire thing was your responsibility. you came in here acting like an ass and got called out ...get over it or get out. we try to have decent conversations here.

[preppyak]

i didnt say that the Tigers were never good, i said that they are never good.
I'm confused...what the fuck did you just say?

Aside from him pointing out that they were good (4 World Series I do believe I saw listed), and are good (37-22 currently)...I'm going to assume that none of that sentence makes sense (which is true) and move on

[preppyak]

yeah, post counts don't matter in here, but being condescending is pretty much a staple.
true story..it makes this forum go round

[lilhockeybro]

shit im down with moving on.

i actually wonder sometimes how many pro baseball players (MLB) still use steroids.
If i was to guess today, id say somewhere around 10%

[bigmike]

shit im down with moving on.

i actually wonder sometimes how many pro baseball players (MLB) still use steroids.
If i was to guess today, id say somewhere around 10%
Denny Hocking on Jim Rome Is Burning today said he thinks it's possible there's 5 guys minimum per team using something like HGH. 5x30=150 guys out of 750.

[preppyak]

Denny Hocking on Jim Rome Is Burning today said he thinks it's possible there's 5 guys minimum per team using something like HGH. 5x30=150 guys out of 750.
I doubt it's that high, but like an average of about 3 a team wouldn't suprise me

[bigmike]

I doubt it's that high, but like an average of about 3 a team wouldn't suprise me
Denny Hocking makes ridiculous statements on jim rome's show. Jim Gray was filling in and Hocking said they should look into Pujols or something ridiculous like that, implying he didn't think he was clean. It was like the final 10 seconds of the forum and Jim Gray was like, "good work guys, we gotta go. (addressing the other guy) nice job, and Denny, well, that was just ridiculous. We'll be right back. . ."

[LeftWideOpen]

Denny Hocking makes ridiculous statements on jim rome's show. Jim Gray was filling in and Hocking said they should look into Pujols or something ridiculous like that, implying he didn't think he was clean. It was like the final 10 seconds of the forum and Jim Gray was like, "good work guys, we gotta go. (addressing the other guy) nice job, and Denny, well, that was just ridiculous. We'll be right back. . ."

did you see what clearstuff posted today? There appears to be a connection between one of the trainers involved in the Grimsley story and Pujols. He's been training him since before he was drafted.

I also wouldnt be surprised if Hocking was a juicer, himself. Dude looks like a goon.

[bigmike]

did you see what clearstuff posted today? There appears to be a connection between one of the trainers involved in the Grimsley story and Pujols. He's been training him since before he was drafted.

I also wouldnt be surprised if Hocking was a juicer, himself. Dude looks like a goon.
yeah, i saw that. so he might not be as crazy as he sounded. but he said this like yesterday or the day before. i'm not sold on the pujols part. but that's probably me hoping that it's not true.

[LeftWideOpen]

yeah, i saw that. so he might not be as crazy as he sounded. but he said this like yesterday or the day before. i'm not sold on the pujols part. but that's probably me hoping that it's not true.

yeah, i am by no means ready to convict the guy (because it's all hearsay right now). It is troubling though, since that would have to be a pretty big coincidence if it were true. It really would be no different then the Bonds and Andersen situation (speaking strictly in regards to the athlete/trainer connection).

[ActorInThisPlay]

haha. an arizona fan talking shit about another baseball fan. wow.
Arizona did win a world series against the Yankees...

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

this hockey guy is a douche

[bigmike]

Arizona did win a world series against the Yankees...
yes. 1.
tigers, 4.

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

to say the tigers have always been a horrible team, just proves that you have no reason to be talking baseball.

as poorly as they have done as a franchise in the recent past, they are an organization with a proud past.

whitaker and trammel....up the middle, cmon, amazing.

[bigmike]

to say the tigers have always been a horrible team, just proves that you have no reason to be talking baseball.

as poorly as they have done as a franchise in the recent past, they are an organization with a proud past.

whitaker and trammel....up the middle, cmon, amazing.
I'll say it.
Whitaker and Trammel are the best SS/2B combo ever.

and I'd also venture to say that we're up there with the Chicago teams, Boston, and the NY teams (including the ones from before the move westward), in terms of history.

[ActorInThisPlay]

yes. 1.
tigers, 4.
Diamondbacks weren't a team until 1998 and they won in 2001, probably a lot faster then it took the Tigers to win a World Series I'm guessing.

haha the Tigers were a franchise in 1901...yeah so those numbers basically mean nothing. I bet the Diamondbacks will have more then 4 World Series by the time they have been around for more then 100 years.

The Tigers first World Series was in 1907 and their first World Series win was in 1935. They are 4-6 in World Series.

[SePaMc]

Diamondbacks weren't a team until 1998 and they won in 2001, probably a lot faster then it took the Tigers to win a World Series I'm guessing.

haha the Tigers were a franchise in 1901...yeah so those numbers basically mean nothing. I bet the Diamondbacks will have more then 4 World Series by the time they have been around for more then 100 years.

The Tigers first World Series was in 1907 and their first World Series win was in 1935. They are 4-6 in World Series.

dude, you're a giants fan. you have no right to talk about championships.

i LOVE the giants. we need to win soon.

[bigmike]

Diamondbacks weren't a team until 1998 and they won in 2001, probably a lot faster then it took the Tigers to win a World Series I'm guessing.

haha the Tigers were a franchise in 1901...yeah so those numbers basically mean nothing. I bet the Diamondbacks will have more then 4 World Series by the time they have been around for more then 100 years.

The Tigers first World Series was in 1907 and their first World Series win was in 1935. They are 4-6 in World Series.
You're right. In fact, we should just sell the team and let it move else where since we're clearly not good at running franchises and keeping them existing for basically 105 years.

[ActorInThisPlay]

dude, you're a giants fan. you have no right to talk about championships.

i LOVE the giants. we need to win soon.
why we have 5 World Series victories? should be 6 except for we fuckin blew it vs. the Angels. Up 5-0 in what would have a final Game 6 but no Dusty decides to put in a pitcher who had been pitching shitty all fuckin series....AHHHH!!!

yeah the Giants are 5-12 in World Series...

[SePaMc]

why we have 5 World Series victories? should be 6 except for we fuckin blew it vs. the Angels. Up 5-0 in what would have a final Game 6 but no Dusty decides to put in a pitcher who had been pitching shitty all fuckin series....AHHHH!!!

yeah the Giants are 5-12 in World Series...
they haven't won since coming to San Fran tho. And aren't they towards the top in longest drought w/o a series? 52 years =\

[bigmike]

why we have 5 World Series victories? should be 6 except for we fuckin blew it vs. the Angels. Up 5-0 in what would have a final Game 6 but no Dusty decides to put in a pitcher who had been pitching shitty all fuckin series....AHHHH!!!
oooh, only 5 in since 1883? God, you should scrap your team, too. Arizona basically owns the league. I don't know why the rest of the teams even try. We're clearly not in Arizona's league at all.

[ActorInThisPlay]

they haven't won since coming to San Fran tho. And aren't they towards the top in longest drought w/o a series? 52 years =\
yeah but we still have more then the Tigers don't we? plus we have been to 17 World Series as opposed to their 10.

[SePaMc]

yeah but we still have more then the Tigers don't we? plus we have been to 17 World Series as opposed to their 10.

not since i have been alive =( ...well, not counting that choke job that tore my heart out.

[ActorInThisPlay]

oooh, only 5 in since 1883? God, you should scrap your team, too. Arizona basically owns the league. I don't know why the rest of the teams even try. We're clearly not in Arizona's league at all.
dude chill out man...I simply put that Arizona has won a World Series and then you pulled the Tigers have more card even they have been in the league almost a 100 years longer. Do you have something against Arizona or something?

[SePaMc]

dude chill out man...I simply put that Arizona has won a World Series and then you pulled the Tigers have more card even they have been in the league almost a 100 years longer. Do you have something against Arizona or something?

i think he's just pissed about that kids' statement. not that i blame him...just sayin.

[ActorInThisPlay]

i think he's just pissed about that kids' statement. not that i blame him...just sayin.
well then don't fucking take it out on me...shit you would think that I personally attacked him or something.

[SePaMc]

well then don't fucking take it out on me...shit you would think that I personally attacked him or something.

lol.

can we all just get along...and talk about how my statement like a month ago about Pujols not being clean is coming true? i mean, like someone said...he has the same guilt as bonds thus far (busted trainer, linked player).

those 200+ pages on Bonds are bullshit of people that want money.

[bigmike]

haha, i love that everyone that's read this thread thinks that I'm bursting with anger. I'm really not. yes, i did use the "we have more than they do" card. And then you tried to discredit it when the Giants (even though I'm not sure you should be counting NY championships as your own in SF) have been in the league 13 years longer than the tigers and have only won 1 more title. I don't count "how many times we've been there" because I think that's really ridiculous. No one count's 2nd places, only wins/championships.
But all this is neither here nor there. and I'm definitely not angry, so don't take it as malicious and pissed off. More sarcastic than anything.

[ActorInThisPlay]

haha, i love that everyone that's read this thread thinks that I'm bursting with anger. I'm really not. yes, i did use the "we have more than they do" card. And then you tried to discredit it when the Giants (even though I'm not sure you should be counting NY championships as your own in SF) have been in the league 13 years longer than the tigers and have only won 1 more title. I don't count "how many times we've been there" because I think that's really ridiculous. No one count's 2nd places, only wins/championships.
But all this is neither here nor there. and I'm definitely not angry, so don't take it as malicious and pissed off. More sarcastic than anything.
but we still have 1 more...yes the NY Giants are the same team as the SF Giants. Just because they changed venues doesn't make it a different team.

let's get back to the topic at hand now...

[ActorInThisPlay]

they haven't won since coming to San Fran tho. And aren't they towards the top in longest drought w/o a series? 52 years =\
oh and I love your usertitle btw...

[bigmike]

but we still have 1 more...yes the NY Giants are the same team as the SF Giants. Just because they changed venues doesn't make it a different team.

let's get back to the topic at hand now...
As a fan, if a team had moved here from elsewhere, i wouldn't consider their previous accomplishments/titles as my teams own. They'd be seperate in my mind.

and the topic at hand, yes. Like i said before I really hope that Pujols didn't take anything illegal. But if he did, I will be the first to say that he should be booed.

[SePaMc]

oh and I love your usertitle btw...

haha thnx. i don't actually believe it..but that play i have in my avatar was fucking amazing. and plus, he made it further then the other 2...yes he has walker, shaq, payton, williams, haslem, and pat riley at the helm.

[mikeford]

if yer team hasnt won a title in your lifetime please stop talking about how many championships you have.

[BarrelIsPointed]

Go away Jason Grimsley thread (I know, I'm contibuting, but I don't care).

[LeftWideOpen]

if yer team hasnt won a title in your lifetime please stop talking about how many championships you have.

no offense, but i'm sure you were defending the history of the Sox before 2004 and for good reason. I have no problem with a Tigers fan trying to defend his franchise (especially when someone is trying to say that a team which has been around for only 8 years is better). There's something to be said for tradition.

[imirish06]

I absolutely love this. I can't wait for names to be run off and see 99.5% of you on here who bashed Bonds start crying and whining.

This is absolutely brilliant

1. You have a player noting that loopholes in the new policy allow for players to get away with taking HGH(not a steroid but still illegal). Which also causes an increase in crown size. Which also explains Barry Bonds 9 something something inch skull and clean piss tests. So asianxcore and the rest of San Fran that think he's innocent can suck on that.

2. You all can suck on it. Steroids and HGH are all over baseball. deal with it

[LeftWideOpen]

I absolutely love this. I can't wait for names to be run off and see 99.5% of you on here who bashed Bonds start crying and whining.

This is absolutely brilliant

1. You have a player noting that loopholes in the new policy allow for players to get away with taking HGH(not a steroid but still illegal). Which also causes an increase in crown size. Which also explains Barry Bonds 9 something something inch skull and clean piss tests. So asianxcore and the rest of San Fran that think he's innocent can suck on that.

2. You all can suck on it. Steroids and HGH are all over baseball. deal with it

You kill me ..you speak as if you are steroid abuser yourself. do you do them? because that's the impression you give when you defend them so vigorously.

Your rational is similar to the 85 pound anoxeric teenager who looks in the mirror and says she's fat because her mind is so warped she begins to believe it's true. "oh shes starving herself to death, but deal with it mommy and daddy because since its started there's no reason to stop it". Just because something has started doesn't mean we should throw our hands in the air and just give up. Not to mention, you are bordering on delusional when you come in here and try to explain the health benefits of steroids or how it's okay to do them because you have to work out anyway for them to serve there purpose.

Baseball is a multi-million (actually its probably in the billions by now) dollar business and we, the fans, are the consumer. We celebrate these guys because they play a game most of us love and for many people it's there only source of entertainment and pleasure. i'm not going to try argue the legality of the subject because that's pretty clear and that isn't what it's entirely about for me. We pay these guys salaries, in a way. There wouldn't be professional baseball if there weren't fans. The overwhelming majority of fans demand a clean game and the players owe it to us to give us what we want. They are professional ballplayers ...they get paid millions of dollars to fulfill a dream that WE make possible. It's like the pro athlete who says "i don't want to be a role model" after he just got busted for DUI ...tough shit. You have no choice. It comes with the territory of the job title. Well, guess what? So does playing by the rules that the fan/consumer are in support of. We don't want to watch a bunch of juiced up guys playing like they are swinging fungo's, so they can either get clean or give it up.

[asianxcore]

I have never seen any measurements that prove his head grew.

[imirish06]

You kill me ..you speak as if you are steroid abuser yourself. do you do them? because that's the impression you give when you defend them so vigorously.

Your rational is similar to the 85 pound anoxeric teenager who looks in the mirror and says she's fat because her mind is so warped she begins to believe it's true. "oh shes starving herself to death, but deal with it mommy and daddy because since its started there's no reason to stop it". Just because something has started doesn't mean we should throw our hands in the air and just give up. Not to mention, you are bordering on delusional when you come in here and try to explain the health benefits of steroids or how it's okay to do them because you have to work out anyway for them to serve there purpose.

Baseball is a multi-million (actually its probably in the billions by now) dollar business and we, the fans, are the consumer. We celebrate these guys because they play a game most of us love and for many people it's there only source of entertainment and pleasure. i'm not going to try argue the legality of the subject because that's pretty clear and that isn't what it's entirely about for me. We pay these guys salaries, in a way. There wouldn't be professional baseball if there weren't fans. The overwhelming majority of fans demand a clean game and the players owe it to us to give us what we want. They are professional ballplayers ...they get paid millions of dollars to fulfill a dream that WE make possible. It's like the pro athlete who says "i don't want to be a role model" after he just got busted for DUI ...tough shit. You have no choice. It comes with the territory of the job title. Well, guess what? So does playing by the rules that the fan/consumer are in support of. We don't want to watch a bunch of juiced up guys playing like they are swinging fungo's, so they can either get clean or give it up.


I minor in Anatomy and Physiology. I have PT certification from ace, afpa, and nesta. I defend them because of the science aspect and the fact that you and the majority of the common public are beyond ignorant on them in general. I could care less who uses steroids or doesn't use steroids. That's a personal choice. I do however get annoyed when people flog around on messageboards spewing out shit about them that couldn't be further from the truth. As for what I do, you could think what you want. Stuff like that doesn't bother me. I also never once said steroids had health benefits, so don't put words into my mouth.

Yes you're right, we do pay their salaries in a way. And as a paying customer we demand they play their best 162 games a year. We demand to see balls fly out the park left and right. We demand pitchers always be ready to throw down. Whether or not you think that way is irrelavent, because a LOT of people do think that way and that's why steroids and other enhancers have entered this game. It's why people like Barry and whoever else gets named are taking things like this so late in to their career. They're so used to being at the top for so many years as are a lot of their fans. They turn to things like Steroids and HGH to stay at the top.

Fans of all sports demand the best from players that are getting paid to pay well. Fans of baseball love long balls.

If you think the FANS of sports aren't partial to blame for how deep this steroid issue is you're beyond delusional.

[ActorInThisPlay]

I minor in Anatomy and Physiology. I have PT certification from ace, afpa, and nesta. I defend them because of the science aspect and the fact that you and the majority of the common public are beyond ignorant on them in general. I could care less who uses steroids or doesn't use steroids. That's a personal choice. I do however get annoyed when people flog around on messageboards spewing out shit about them that couldn't be further from the truth. As for what I do, you could think what you want. Stuff like that doesn't bother me. I also never once said steroids had health benefits, so don't put words into my mouth.

Yes you're right, we do pay their salaries in a way. And as a paying customer we demand they play their best 162 games a year. We demand to see balls fly out the park left and right. We demand pitchers always be ready to throw down. Whether or not you think that way is irrelavent, because a LOT of people do think that way and that's why steroids and other enhancers have entered this game. It's why people like Barry and whoever else gets named are taking things like this so late in to their career. They're so used to being at the top for so many years as are a lot of their fans. They turn to things like Steroids and HGH to stay at the top.

Fans of all sports demand the best from players that are getting paid to pay well. Fans of baseball love long balls.

If you think the FANS of sports aren't partial to blame for how deep this steroid issue is you're beyond delusional.
yeah basically agreed with everything you said...

[ActorInThisPlay]

You kill me ..you speak as if you are steroid abuser yourself. do you do them? because that's the impression you give when you defend them so vigorously.

Your rational is similar to the 85 pound anoxeric teenager who looks in the mirror and says she's fat because her mind is so warped she begins to believe it's true. "oh shes starving herself to death, but deal with it mommy and daddy because since its started there's no reason to stop it". Just because something has started doesn't mean we should throw our hands in the air and just give up. Not to mention, you are bordering on delusional when you come in here and try to explain the health benefits of steroids or how it's okay to do them because you have to work out anyway for them to serve there purpose.

Baseball is a multi-million (actually its probably in the billions by now) dollar business and we, the fans, are the consumer. We celebrate these guys because they play a game most of us love and for many people it's there only source of entertainment and pleasure. i'm not going to try argue the legality of the subject because that's pretty clear and that isn't what it's entirely about for me. We pay these guys salaries, in a way. There wouldn't be professional baseball if there weren't fans. The overwhelming majority of fans demand a clean game and the players owe it to us to give us what we want. They are professional ballplayers ...they get paid millions of dollars to fulfill a dream that WE make possible. It's like the pro athlete who says "i don't want to be a role model" after he just got busted for DUI ...tough shit. You have no choice. It comes with the territory of the job title. Well, guess what? So does playing by the rules that the fan/consumer are in support of. We don't want to watch a bunch of juiced up guys playing like they are swinging fungo's, so they can either get clean or give it up.
don't hate on him because he is actually educated on the matter unlike you are.

[LeftWideOpen]

I minor in Anatomy and Physiology. I have PT certification from ace, afpa, and nesta. I defend them because of the science aspect and the fact that you and the majority of the common public are beyond ignorant on them in general. I could care less who uses steroids or doesn't use steroids. That's a personal choice. I do however get annoyed when people flog around on messageboards spewing out shit about them that couldn't be further from the truth. As for what I do, you could think what you want. Stuff like that doesn't bother me. I also never once said steroids had health benefits, so don't put words into my mouth.

Yes you're right, we do pay their salaries in a way. And as a paying customer we demand they play their best 162 games a year. We demand to see balls fly out the park left and right. We demand pitchers always be ready to throw down. Whether or not you think that way is irrelavent, because a LOT of people do think that way and that's why steroids and other enhancers have entered this game. It's why people like Barry and whoever else gets named are taking things like this so late in to their career. They're so used to being at the top for so many years as are a lot of their fans. They turn to things like Steroids and HGH to stay at the top.

Fans of all sports demand the best from players that are getting paid to pay well. Fans of baseball love long balls.

If you think the FANS of sports aren't partial to blame for how deep this steroid issue is you're beyond delusional.

i'm not trying to compare knowledge on steroids. i know a bit myself but its from a psychological point of view, not a scientific. i'm not trying to make any scientific claims here ...what i'm saying is that steroids do enhance performance. that much is clear. do you need a good workout plan in order for them to work? yes. but they still, when used effectively, enhance performance. this is where my point comes in ...

you said "steroids and HGH are all over baseball. deal with it." Why must we accept it, or even put up with it? These guys make the money they do because of us. Without us, there would be no pro baseball to speak of. Obviously, not every fan is going to come together and boycott baseball because people love the game too much. But if you asked every fan whether or not they'd trade a decrease in performance (which would be small, lets not forget that steroids are a fairly new thing in the game of baseball. Offensive numbers are the only thing that have skyrocketed, although I'm aware both pitchers and hitters are cheating) for the abolotion of steroids and HGH, the overwhelming majority (at LEAST 2/3) would say yes in a heartbeat. The consumer is being taken advantage of by greedy ballplayers and we shouldn't just have to admit defeat and wear our ignorance as a badge.

Athletes though, will refuse to cooperate and do the right thing. They'll point to unfair expectations as an excuse, when in actuality it comes down to being worth as much as possible. Fans have always been in love with baseball, we didn't need tons of HR's to renew our interest.

[LeftWideOpen]

don't hate on him because he is actually educated on the matter unlike you are.

yeah, because i was totally talking all about chemistry and physiology in my post. What I am saying has nothing to do with science, it has to do with morality and integrity. Those are two things that anyone who accepts the use of steroids in professional sports lack.

[preppyak]

you said "steroids and HGH are all over baseball. deal with it." Why must we accept it, or even put up with it?
I agree with you here...it's the valid part of the argument.

Fans have always been in love with baseball, we didn't need tons of HR's to renew our interest.
True fans...no. Casual fans...yes. Why is hockey still not covered anywhere (aside from ESPN being douches) Because there hasn't been something that draws unusual attention (like Crosby having an unreal season, etc). Because, at least that I'm aware of, there hasn't been anything to draw mainstream media to it.

I feel that if baseball hadn't had that home run chase, only now would it actually be getting the coverage it recieved from 1999-2006.

[LeftWideOpen]

I agree with you here...it's the valid part of the argument.


True fans...no. Casual fans...yes. Why is hockey still not covered anywhere (aside from ESPN being douches) Because there hasn't been something that draws unusual attention (like Crosby having an unreal season, etc). Because, at least that I'm aware of, there hasn't been anything to draw mainstream media to it.

I feel that if baseball hadn't had that home run chase, only now would it actually be getting the coverage it recieved from 1999-2006.



the history of baseball in america is far greater then hockey, though. they dont even really compare. The only time attendance was ever really an issue was the immediate backlash to the strike of 94'. The total attendance of 1996 (well before the Sosa/Mcgwire chase) went up a full 10,000,000 compared to 1995. Attendance and interest in baseball wasnt an issue when steroids allegedly became used somewhat frequently in baseball (late 80s/early 90s) either.

I just don't buy the notion that baseball was doomed before what happened with McGwire and Sosa. That obviously catapulted the interest from the general public, but baseball was doing just fine before then.

[preppyak]

I just don't buy the notion that baseball was doomed before what happened with McGwire and Sosa. That obviously catapulted the interest from the general public, but baseball was doing just fine before then.
doomed, no, but I'd like to see the ratings comparison pre and post strike. I mean, those that go to the games are more traditionally the people that aren't going to abandon the game due to a strike. I don't think Baseball's TV ratings were as high...and the Sosa/McGwire thing reminded any older fans that had left baseball that it could still be compelling.

These are my assumptions based on following general sports trends and fans, because I really know nothing about baseball attendance/ratings at all

[imirish06]

i'm not trying to compare knowledge on steroids. i know a bit myself but its from a psychological point of view, not a scientific. i'm not trying to make any scientific claims here ...what i'm saying is that steroids do enhance performance. that much is clear. do you need a good workout plan in order for them to work? yes. but they still, when used effectively, enhance performance. this is where my point comes in ...

you said "steroids and HGH are all over baseball. deal with it." Why must we accept it, or even put up with it? These guys make the money they do because of us. Without us, there would be no pro baseball to speak of. Obviously, not every fan is going to come together and boycott baseball because people love the game too much. But if you asked every fan whether or not they'd trade a decrease in performance (which would be small, lets not forget that steroids are a fairly new thing in the game of baseball. Offensive numbers are the only thing that have skyrocketed, although I'm aware both pitchers and hitters are cheating) for the abolotion of steroids and HGH, the overwhelming majority (at LEAST 2/3) would say yes in a heartbeat. The consumer is being taken advantage of by greedy ballplayers and we shouldn't just have to admit defeat and wear our ignorance as a badge.

Athletes though, will refuse to cooperate and do the right thing. They'll point to unfair expectations as an excuse, when in actuality it comes down to being worth as much as possible. Fans have always been in love with baseball, we didn't need tons of HR's to renew our interest.

You go to college don't you?
Why? because you want to better your education to make yourself worth as much as possible in your career. Nobody goes to college to make Min. wage for a living.

Regardless of what occupation you do for a living, you're going to do things to make yourself worth as much as possible.

And how you can say that unfair expectations are not a part of it is beyond me. I mean.... I'm sure you've had death threats and racial slurs thrown at you and your family for having a bad day at work. So I GUESS you could understand after all. My bad.

If there was a switch to pull that would stop all steroid use in baseball and I had the chance to pull it. Would I? Sure I would. I love a clean game as much as the next guy.

But, my question to you is...

when this finally gets blown open. Whether it be Grimes or someone else that does it.
When the big names come of people you've idolized for years. When the names come out of people you always thought were poster boys of the game of baseball....

how much of this are you going to let ruin your joy of baseball and the players?

I love baseball and I always have. Which is why I'm not getting myself worked up with what has happened with this steroid issue and what's about to happen with it. I'm not going to stop loving it or thinking any less of it or the players because of all this. Especially when I have no idea of what it's like to be in their shoes and have to face the constant demand for excellence.

[jusscali]

dude the mlb is a joke, shut it down. bunch of fucking cheaters and low lifes. i could give a shit less what the home runs and the advanced play has done for the game, if the game was meant to die because it wasnt as exciting than it should have gone down with some class. this shit is rediculous. and its rather disgusting as well.

america's past time, naturally a perfect fit

[imirish06]

I'm more upset with the people in charge of the game for all of this than I am with the players.

[jusscali]

I'm more upset with the people in charge of the game for all of this than I am with the players.
well yes, but you have to blame these assholes. if your a decent human being and world class athlete stand up to this shit and show some moral character. i just think its a crying shame. this whole thing could have been and probably has been going on for years now, and even players you didnt originally suspect as steroid users, theya re probably on this new stuff. i mean maybe just shut it down for a season or two, investigate fully, clean the place up, set examples and then rebuild. i think respect and credibility has been lost. period.

[LeftWideOpen]

You go to college don't you?
Why? because you want to better your education to make yourself worth as much as possible in your career. Nobody goes to college to make Min. wage for a living.

Regardless of what occupation you do for a living, you're going to do things to make yourself worth as much as possible.

Do I cheat on tests? No. I get my grades the honorable and legal way. A lot of baseball players make there living the legal way to ..what do you have to say to them? They could potentially be losing out on millions because there numbers are being exceeded by guys who don't have the same natural ability but juice.

And how you can say that unfair expectations are not a part of it is beyond me. I mean.... I'm sure you've had death threats and racial slurs thrown at you and your family for having a bad day at work. So I GUESS you could understand after all. My bad.

You are speaking of Barry Bonds I assume, who is only in that position because of the steroid allegations. He was a son of a bitch before, sure, but all the irrational threats and such are in response to his juicing being discovered.



But, my question to you is...

when this finally gets blown open. Whether it be Grimes or someone else that does it.
When the big names come of people you've idolized for years. When the names come out of people you always thought were poster boys of the game of baseball....

how much of this are you going to let ruin your joy of baseball and the players?

My joy for the game of baseball hasn't changed. I love the game of baseball and the strategy behind it, players aside. What has changed is my perception of the ballplayers who have been discovered to be taking steroids. I don't think they deserve to play another day in a game that provides them with riches that people like me and you can only dream about. Even worse, they are taking up the spot of another guy who is clean and is more deserving. It's the fringe player who gets screwed here, because he's losing out on a better life due to the deceit of those around him.

The players have no defense here. By choosing to be a professional athlete, they choose to be scrutinized and they choose to be a role model. Even if David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez, Josh Beckett and Curt Schilling were all found to be juicers, my opinion wouldnt change. Throw them out of the league because theres a 22 year old kid in AAA who's clean and may have a much better life as a result. Once players start getting banned from baseball, then we'll see a drastic change. People make mistakes but when there's as many people juicing as there is, there is no mistake being made. These people know exactly what they are doing. In doing so, they are cheating the game and they are cheating us as fans. I'm not willing to forgive and forget when there's all that money on the line.

[LeftWideOpen]

I'm more upset with the people in charge of the game for all of this than I am with the players.

there's no doubt that they deserve blame too. They knew the home run ball was increasing there ratings so they did nothing to stop it. Selig always has, and always will, be a terrible commissioner because he has no direction. The only thing he has done for baseball is introduce the wild card.