Racism? Yes or No?

[justinevans]

We all know the truly negative forms of racism, but do we overlook though, in good faith, other forms. I was listening to the radio today and they were talking about how Gates donated something like a billion dollars to the minority fund for education. I forget the specific name. Anyway, a general definition of the term racism is any policy based on a race. Do things such as Affirmative Action, specific schools (such as Grambling State), and other organizations that single a specific race out or group be considered racism?

This is just for an open discussion. Personally, it was just a topic that caused me to think. Is segregation just as wrong when it is voluntary as when it is demanded?

Speak.

[catscradle]

Racism and prejudice will always exist in this world, it is a part of the human pschye that is always being touched upon subconsciously or consciously. Institutions such as affirmative action are nothing more than reverse discrimination. It's combating racism with more racism by discriminating againts the non minority. It's equivalent to fighting fire with fire. The best person should always be rewarded for their merits.

Things like this always single out minorites as well, as it leads others to believe that the person is there solely on the basis of affirmative action, instead of their own merit. It establishes superiority and inferiority complexes among the community and takes away from the diversity that affirmative action strives for.

Programs like this aren't benefiting people and do not help to deal, and/or combat racism. Until programs are set up where race isn't even a factor through processes of admission and hiring will diversity begin to takes its course through natural means as now, everyone has the resources to pursue any of their dreams through scholarships, loans, etc.

[xshady121]

Racism and prejudice will always exist in this world, it is a part of the human pschye that is always being touched upon subconsciously or consciously. Institutions such as affirmative action are nothing more than reverse discrimination. It's combating racism with more racism by discriminating againts the non minority. It's equivalent to fighting fire with fire. The best person should always be rewarded for their merits.

Things like this always single out minorites as well, as it leads others to believe that the person is there solely on the basis of affirmative action, instead of their own merit. It establishes superiority and inferiority complexes among the community and takes away from the diversity that affirmative action strives for.

Programs like this aren't benefiting people and do not help to deal, and/or combat racism. Until programs are set up where race isn't even a factor through processes of admission and hiring will diversity begin to takes its course through natural means as now, everyone has the resources to pursue any of their dreams through scholarships, loans, etc.

well said.

[xvszero]

Everyone has *some* resources to pursue their dreams right now but things are far from equal. A kid growing up in a posh suburban school just plain gets a much better education than a kid growing up in the projects. They both make it through high school, both want to go to college, but one has way better credentials due to where they were raised... is that equal? Then the richer one gets accepted at Yale and the poor one maybe gets into his local community college...

I don't think Affirmative Action is the answer though. Not sure what is.

By the way racism is generally viewed as not just making decisions based on race, but making decisions based on supposed superiority of one race over another. And Affirmative Action is not that, it is more based on what I said... certain races not getting the same advantages growing up, not an inate inferiority.

[matt_rawlings]

All the cool kids are racists

[catscradle]

All the cool kids are racists
el mayo.

[The Revisionist]

I am not a fan of affirmative action because I am not a fan of the government trying to give more support to any race over another, I don't believe that's their job.

[A picasso blue]

I am not a fan of affirmative action because I am not a fan of the government trying to give more support to any race over another, I don't believe that's their job.
when some need it though, whose job is it? when its at a point where the system is set against them and they need more backing

[The Revisionist]

when some need it though, whose job is it? when its at a point where the system is set against them and they need more backingIt's the job of... the people themselves who want to achieve as much as they can? If anybody works hard and strong and becomes the best at what they do, their rewards will be reaped.

[xvszero]

when some need it though, whose job is it? when its at a point where the system is set against them and they need more backing

The problem with Affirmative Action is race itself isn't a problem, it just might be a factor in leading to other things like lesser education, poverty, etc.

So instead of having Affirmative Action for a race, why not have something geared towards those who got poor educations or grew up in poverty? The fact is this would still cover a lot of minorities while focusing on the real problems.

[xvszero]

It's the job of... the people themselves who want to achieve as much as they can? If anybody works hard and strong and becomes the best at what they do, their rewards will be reaped.

As much as everyone says things like this, the fact is class matters. You have people who grow up in poverty and go to a crappy school and graduate high school at the top of said crappy school and still have trouble getting into a real college. Work hard? What happens when your schools teachers don't give a crap about you and don't know how to handle an overachiever anyway? And then this person barely makes it into a decent college, has to take out a crapload of loans, then has to jump right into the first job they can find in a struggling economy just to pay bills while someone else who milked their parents money can leisurely look for whatever job they want because their parents are still paying for everything for them...

Meanwhile my cousin has a millionaire father who got him a posh job right out of college through connections. He is 26 and making 75k a year now. Did he deserve it more than everyone else struggling to get by? Nope.

Statistics show that most people remain in the same class as their parents. This isn't a coincidance. Life ain't fair, that's just the way it is.

[selftitled85]

i agree with affirmative action to an extent. i understand it for things like school...

but when people start bitching and complaining about not enough black guys or women in politics i draw the line.

yes i believe helping them is good and what not but in no way shape or form should race or gender have any bearing on who gets voted into an office. or who gets a high level position at some job.

[cal1082]

Everyone has *some* resources to pursue their dreams right now but things are far from equal. A kid growing up in a posh suburban school just plain gets a much better education than a kid growing up in the projects. They both make it through high school, both want to go to college, but one has way better credentials due to where they were raised... is that equal? Then the richer one gets accepted at Yale and the poor one maybe gets into his local community college...

I don't think Affirmative Action is the answer though. Not sure what is.

By the way racism is generally viewed as not just making decisions based on race, but making decisions based on supposed superiority of one race over another. And Affirmative Action is not that, it is more based on what I said... certain races not getting the same advantages growing up, not an inate inferiority.

Question that should be asked and addressed is why is this the case and how can it be fixed. Simply overlooking their education and say providing them with a job that would be better fulfilled by someone else is not the solution.

[x togepi x]

So instead of having Affirmative Action for a race, why not have something geared towards those who got poor educations or grew up in poverty? The fact is this would still cover a lot of minorities while focusing on the real problems.

I agree with this statement to a degree. I just don't know if there's a difference between going to a poor rural school and a poor inner city one. I mean, I want to assume that inner city schools give worse educations, but I can't make that claim and feel okay with it.

though, i do want to point out that most of the time, those who get a job becuase of affirmative action can still do the job.

[xvszero]

Maybe they can still do the job. But maybe someone who can do it better is unfairly getting passed up.

I know for the Chicago fireman's test my cousin just took his uncle who works for the department said you basically have no chance at the moment, we are so far behind quota for hiring minorities blah blah blah that they actually made the test easier just so more minorities could pass it. Now I'm not saying his uncle is right, I have no idea. But it could be true, and that would suck for white kids trying to be firemen in Chicago wouldn't it?

Or suck for the people caught in fires who have firemen who passed an easier test and don't quite have the skills they should making some key mistakes at the wrong times...

[justinevans]

Everyone has *some* resources to pursue their dreams right now but things are far from equal. A kid growing up in a posh suburban school just plain gets a much better education than a kid growing up in the projects. They both make it through high school, both want to go to college, but one has way better credentials due to where they were raised... is that equal? Then the richer one gets accepted at Yale and the poor one maybe gets into his local community college...

I don't think Affirmative Action is the answer though. Not sure what is.

By the way racism is generally viewed as not just making decisions based on race, but making decisions based on supposed superiority of one race over another. And Affirmative Action is not that, it is more based on what I said... certain races not getting the same advantages growing up, not an inate inferiority.

yes, but some white kids goto those poor inner city schools. And some hispanics may go there, maybe people who are native american. than it is racism, because they all had the same opportunity, but one gets more points than the next.

[justinevans]

when some need it though, whose job is it? when its at a point where the system is set against them and they need more backing

Well Slavery and Segregation ended long ago.

[justinevans]

As much as everyone says things like this, the fact is class matters. You have people who grow up in poverty and go to a crappy school and graduate high school at the top of said crappy school and still have trouble getting into a real college. Work hard? What happens when your schools teachers don't give a crap about you and don't know how to handle an overachiever anyway? And then this person barely makes it into a decent college, has to take out a crapload of loans, then has to jump right into the first job they can find in a struggling economy just to pay bills while someone else who milked their parents money can leisurely look for whatever job they want because their parents are still paying for everything for them...

Meanwhile my cousin has a millionaire father who got him a posh job right out of college through connections. He is 26 and making 75k a year now. Did he deserve it more than everyone else struggling to get by? Nope.

Statistics show that most people remain in the same class as their parents. This isn't a coincidance. Life ain't fair, that's just the way it is.

True, but 90% of millionaires are self-made.

[justinevans]

Maybe they can still do the job. But maybe someone who can do it better is unfairly getting passed up.

I know for the Chicago fireman's test my cousin just took his uncle who works for the department said you basically have no chance at the moment, we are so far behind quota for hiring minorities blah blah blah that they actually made the test easier just so more minorities could pass it. Now I'm not saying his uncle is right, I have no idea. But it could be true, and that would suck for white kids trying to be firemen in Chicago wouldn't it?

Or suck for the people caught in fires who have firemen who passed an easier test and don't quite have the skills they should making some key mistakes at the wrong times...

Oh come on now, a fireman? that is not an important job. Anyone can do it. Sarcasm.

What it really boils down to is that some people value education and some don't.

Granted this is 2001, but it is just an example:

A new national study shows that Philadelphia has a better high school graduation rate - 70 percent - than many other large cities, including Los Angeles, Chicago, Detroit, New York and Washington.

The same study, however, shows that one-third of black students and nearly half of Latinos in the city never finish high school. Fewer than 10 percent of white students drop out.

Chicago, the study found, graduates 47 percent of its students; New York, 54 percent; and Los Angeles, 56 percent.

If you're not going to school, you're not going to get educated.

Also, we see basketball players all the time who have come from top notch prep schools and they still cannot speak our language properly.

[x togepi x]

Well Slavery and Segregation ended long ago.

if you think segregation is over, you ought to visit certain US cities. It's still there, it's just not a legal institution, and you can't tell me that those who's families weren't enslaved and segregated against do not have an advantage over those who aren't.

minorities have been screwed by the system ever since it was created, but so have poor white kids. that's why I think AA should be more based on socio-economic class.

I do think it's interesting how, in a few years, we might be favoring men with AA over women since the trend now is that more women are going to college and graduating than men. (or so I was told over and over in my english class last semester)

[xvszero]

yes, but some white kids goto those poor inner city schools. And some hispanics may go there, maybe people who are native american. than it is racism, because they all had the same opportunity, but one gets more points than the next.

That's why I said I don't think Affirmative Action is the answer, I think something more class/income-based would be.

[xvszero]

True, but 90% of millionaires are self-made.

Where did you get this statistic? It seems highly unlikely.

Then again they probably mean self-made as in no one handed them a million dollars. Just handed them a bunch of posh jobs and means to make it without too much effort.

Like my cousin. His father is a millionaire. My cousin already makes 75k a year and is supposed to get a raise close to 100k a year or something. He is unmarried and has no dependents. If he is smart and saves money 10 years from now he could EASILY be a millionaire. Make a few safe investments here and there, just plain bank a ton of money... it would be insanely easy at the money he is making and the fact that he claims he will never get married.

And then people would call him a self-made millionaire, because no one handed him free money. Oh, yeah his millionaire dad had some connections that got him a sweet job but he had to go work every day for 10 or 15 years to make his first million! What a devoted, self-made man!

Of course, with him it is a moot point because he blows his money as fast as he makes it so I doubt he will ever have a million. He actually had to borrow 2 grand from my aunt a few months back... he makes 75k a year and has no dependents, she makes 50k a year and has a son she is putting through college... and he borrows from her. Sad, in a way.

Then again at his current career path he is expected to be making like 200k a year within the next 10 years or so... I bet he blows all that money too though.

[ClapClapSnap]

That "poor inner-city school" thing is bull. I went to an "urban" high school with 8,00+ kids, and you wouldn't believe the amount of money thrown at that school. There were a ridiculous amount of resources for anyone who wanted/needed it. We had a 20 page packet given out to the seniors full of scholarships from people/businesses/organizations. I was even in a program that [was supposed to be for minorities, but I knew it helped you get into college] that helped kids with the FAFSA, applications, and essays.

Meanwhile, I knew of three suburban high schools, that were basically falling apart because they had no funding. And they weren't poor towns at all.

[cal1082]

Novel idea but how about letting people make their own opportunities.

I'm 100% sure some blacks are held back because they enrolled in bad schools.
I'm 100% sure some white kids are dirt poor and dont have every advantage as someone else does
I'm 100%............................... ...........

Point is that everyone has their hurddles to go over whether it be their SES, physical disability, mental disability, learning disability, and other things. Most of us could probably think of someone that has. On the other hand it is not the governments job to decide who deserves the better chance by placing quotas.

[cal1082]

That "poor inner-city school" thing is bull. I went to an "urban" high school with 8,00+ kids, and you wouldn't believe the amount of money thrown at that school. There were a ridiculous amount of resources for anyone who wanted/needed it. We had a 20 page packet given out to the seniors full of scholarships from people/businesses/organizations. I was even in a program that [was supposed to be for minorities, but I knew it helped you get into college] that helped kids with the FAFSA, applications, and essays.

Meanwhile, I knew of three suburban high schools, that were basically falling apart because they had no funding. And they weren't poor towns at all.

If I remember right economic status is like 28 or so on a list of underachievment in school..........in our country though it's #1.

[A picasso blue]

It's the job of... the people themselves who want to achieve as much as they can? If anybody works hard and strong and becomes the best at what they do, their rewards will be reaped.
thats the Great American Dream but there are other factors holding people back such as wealth, the family theyre born into, the education they can afford

and dont use some exception like Bill Gates as a general example of everyone succeeding

[justinevans]

if you think segregation is over, you ought to visit certain US cities. It's still there, it's just not a legal institution, and you can't tell me that those who's families weren't enslaved and segregated against do not have an advantage over those who aren't.

minorities have been screwed by the system ever since it was created, but so have poor white kids. that's why I think AA should be more based on socio-economic class.

I do think it's interesting how, in a few years, we might be favoring men with AA over women since the trend now is that more women are going to college and graduating than men. (or so I was told over and over in my english class last semester)

yeah, I think a native American woman get the most points. However, I do not mind it for education sometimes, but when it comes to being part of the supply side of the economy...you shouldn't be helped out twice. I just don't like reading things about Equal Opportunity that isn't equal opportunity. I agree the economic class thing would be a good idea. Sometimes I just think too much of a welfare system causes problems. The provide little incentive. If it comes down to well they fill the quota rather than they are more educated, sadly it keeps one face superior over the rest. It also comes down to the student actually completing and attending school.

[justinevans]

Where did you get this statistic? It seems highly unlikely.

Then again they probably mean self-made as in no one handed them a million dollars. Just handed them a bunch of posh jobs and means to make it without too much effort.

Like my cousin. His father is a millionaire. My cousin already makes 75k a year and is supposed to get a raise close to 100k a year or something. He is unmarried and has no dependents. If he is smart and saves money 10 years from now he could EASILY be a millionaire. Make a few safe investments here and there, just plain bank a ton of money... it would be insanely easy at the money he is making and the fact that he claims he will never get married.

And then people would call him a self-made millionaire, because no one handed him free money. Oh, yeah his millionaire dad had some connections that got him a sweet job but he had to go work every day for 10 or 15 years to make his first million! What a devoted, self-made man!

Of course, with him it is a moot point because he blows his money as fast as he makes it so I doubt he will ever have a million. He actually had to borrow 2 grand from my aunt a few months back... he makes 75k a year and has no dependents, she makes 50k a year and has a son she is putting through college... and he borrows from her. Sad, in a way.

Then again at his current career path he is expected to be making like 200k a year within the next 10 years or so... I bet he blows all that money too though.

Maybe I should shouldn't say millionaires, but Financially successful people. 90% of them are self-made. Meaning, they came from average - poor families.

And getting jobs 75% of the time depends on who you know thanks to the Baby Boomers age.

[justinevans]

That "poor inner-city school" thing is bull. I went to an "urban" high school with 8,00+ kids, and you wouldn't believe the amount of money thrown at that school. There were a ridiculous amount of resources for anyone who wanted/needed it. We had a 20 page packet given out to the seniors full of scholarships from people/businesses/organizations. I was even in a program that [was supposed to be for minorities, but I knew it helped you get into college] that helped kids with the FAFSA, applications, and essays.

Meanwhile, I knew of three suburban high schools, that were basically falling apart because they had no funding. And they weren't poor towns at all.

Exactly, most of the shitty schools are ones in the south no matter the color or location.

[justinevans]

thats the Great American Dream but there are other factors holding people back such as wealth, the family theyre born into, the education they can afford

and dont use some exception like Bill Gates as a general example of everyone succeeding

Yes and no?

Look at the NBA. African-Americans are more talented and better players. You don't see anyone signing a white guy just so they look better as a team or a fill a quota.

Why should a fire company have to hire a african-american to fill a quota if 5 white guys are better than him?

[xvszero]

That "poor inner-city school" thing is bull. I went to an "urban" high school with 8,00+ kids, and you wouldn't believe the amount of money thrown at that school. There were a ridiculous amount of resources for anyone who wanted/needed it. We had a 20 page packet given out to the seniors full of scholarships from people/businesses/organizations. I was even in a program that [was supposed to be for minorities, but I knew it helped you get into college] that helped kids with the FAFSA, applications, and essays.

Meanwhile, I knew of three suburban high schools, that were basically falling apart because they had no funding. And they weren't poor towns at all.

Too bad that isn't the way it works in Chicago.

Or pretty much most everywhere else for that matter.

[xvszero]

Maybe I should shouldn't say millionaires, but Financially successful people. 90% of them are self-made. Meaning, they came from average - poor families.

And getting jobs 75% of the time depends on who you know thanks to the Baby Boomers age.

Again where did you get this statistic? I'd find it hard to believe that 90% of millionaires came from middle class and poor families, that would leave only 10% coming from rich families, which means what... all the rich kids are doing crappy for themselves nowadays?

It also doesn't line up with your second statement. Getting jobs 75% of the time depends on who you know... and you tend to know mostly the people you grew up around, who are generally the same economic class as you...

[justinevans]

Again where did you get this statistic? I'd find it hard to believe that 90% of millionaires came from middle class and poor families, that would leave only 10% coming from rich families, which means what... all the rich kids are doing crappy for themselves nowadays?

It also doesn't line up with your second statement. Getting jobs 75% of the time depends on who you know... and you tend to know mostly the people you grew up around, who are generally the same economic class as you...

Economics teacher it was also in this one book we had to read for Omniquest.

No, it means if 50 million people are financially successful 5 million come from rich families. which can be understandable.

And no...If you're going to get a real job where you need secondary education...you network with people in college. no matter their race or family's financial stability.

[cal1082]

social economic status is not a top factor on why kids dont succeed in school

[justinevans]

social economic status is not a top factor on why kids dont succeed in school

I agree.

[Love As Arson]

social economic status is not a top factor on why kids dont succeed in school
If you believe it plays no role, then that's foolish.

The fact is, there are specific groups which were systematically denied both political and economic rights. The government sanctioned this. As Martin Luther King said, you cannot oppress a people for centuries, then grant them freedom and expect them to be able to compete in society. You must provide programs so they have acces to the tools that will allow them to compete in our society. To this end, the government must take action, as it institutionalised the racism and sexism that hindered the progress of these specific groups.

[catscradle]

If you believe it plays no role, then that's foolish.

The fact is, there are specific groups which were systematically denied both political and economic rights. The government sanctioned this. As Martin Luther King said, you cannot oppress a people for centuries, then grant them freedom and expect them to be able to compete in society. You must provide programs so they have acces to the tools that will allow them to compete in our society. To this end, the government must take action, as it institutionalised the racism and sexism that hindered the progress of these specific groups.
It's is not the gov'ts job to spoon feed people, the govt is overstepping its constitutional boundaries by favoring one race over another. In this day and age everyone that has goals and aspirations can pursue those under equal oppurtunities as there are countless resources available to do so. Combatting racism and sexism with more racism and sexism accomplishes nothing. It's nothing more than reverse discrimination.

[justinevans]

If you believe it plays no role, then that's foolish.

The fact is, there are specific groups which were systematically denied both political and economic rights. The government sanctioned this. As Martin Luther King said, you cannot oppress a people for centuries, then grant them freedom and expect them to be able to compete in society. You must provide programs so they have acces to the tools that will allow them to compete in our society. To this end, the government must take action, as it institutionalised the racism and sexism that hindered the progress of these specific groups.

The Irish were opressed in Britain...not to the sense of African Americans....They've moved on In America.

However Slavery did end close to 200 years ago and the Equal Rights movement, and women's rights movements have ended 50 and 80 years ago.

[Love As Arson]

It's is not the gov'ts job to spoon feed people
The government's job is whatever the people desire it to be.
the govt is overstepping its constitutional boundaries by favoring one race over another.
That isn't what affirmative action does. It simply allows groups to have access to opportunities they do not have access to because of government's institutionalised oppression.
In this day and age everyone that has goals and aspirations can pursue those under equal oppurtunities as there are countless resources available to do so.
The problem is class restricts one's ability to pursue dreams. Statistics bear this out. The vast majority of people do not transcend their class. Are we to believe that all of these individuals simply have no motivation, or is there a systemic problem?
Combatting racism and sexism with more racism and sexism accomplishes nothing. It's nothing more than reverse discrimination.
It is not reverse discrimnation, if there even is such a thing. Affirmative action is about access. The dominant culture cannot take part in such programs because they have access to them, for the most part, at birth.
There should be programs for poor whites, do not get me wrong, but there are special programs that are necessary to bypass the racism that is implicit in our country's institutions.

[Love As Arson]

The Irish were opressed in Britain...not to the sense of African Americans....They've moved on In America.
The problem with this is, after a generation, they were able to blend in with the main population of America, thus being able to get past the oppression against immigrants. They were able to accumulate wealth and spread it throughout those populations.

However Slavery did end close to 200 years ago and the Equal Rights movement, and women's rights movements have ended 50 and 80 years ago.
African-Americans, on the other hand, were systematically denied education, economic opportunities and political rights. This took place for over four hundred years. Women's oppression goes back to thousands of years. Now, logically speaking, do you believe centuries of oppression can be eliminated, without any programs to aid these people, by simply signing something into law? Are we to believe that centuries of oppression can be rid of in decades? That seems ridiculous.

[justinevans]

The government's job is whatever the people desire it to be.

That isn't what affirmative action does. It simply allows groups to have access to opportunities they do not have access to because of government's institutionalised oppression.

The problem is class restricts one's ability to pursue dreams. Statistics bear this out. The vast majority of people do not transcend their class. Are we to believe that all of these individuals simply have no motivation, or is there a systemic problem?

It is not reverse discrimnation, if there even is such a thing. Affirmative action is about access. The dominant culture cannot take part in such programs because they have access to them, for the most part, at birth.
There should be programs for poor whites, do not get me wrong, but there are special programs that are necessary to bypass the racism that is implicit in our country's institutions.

Please explain to me this...How does it Affirmative Action not make White Males the superior race? It is saying White males are better than everyone else, so other races need assistance in being "equal". It is not equal opportunity. Poor people can become rich. Class does not restrict that. There are loads and loads and loads of scholarships available for people to goto the college. THE STUDENT MUST BE MOTIVATED. I've said it before and I will say it again...Once the government assumes responsibility for its people, people lose responsibility for themselves. Students attend class. Students of all different races have learning disabilities. If you don't attend school, and you do not have good parenting, then you will not succeed. It is that simple. Is it the government's fault for bad parenting? A lack of motivation? Just because education is not valued as highly in the urban communities of America, it is not the government's fault. In the south urban communities more times than not will have better education than rural ones. And you talk about groups? Who is to say one minority group is better or worse than the next?

[justinevans]

The problem with this is, after a generation, they were able to blend in with the main population of America, thus being able to get past the oppression against immigrants. They were able to accumulate wealth and spread it throughout those populations.

African-Americans, on the other hand, were systematically denied education, economic opportunities and political rights. This took place for over four hundred years. Women's oppression goes back to thousands of years. Now, logically speaking, do you believe centuries of oppression can be eliminated, without any programs to aid these people, by simply signing something into law? Are we to believe that centuries of oppression can be rid of in decades? That seems ridiculous.

1607 ...the first town was in America to 1865?

400 years in America? come on now. Even 1965 makes it 350.

And for alot of the time it was only half of the country.

[Love As Arson]

Please explain to me this...How does it Affirmative Action not make White Males the superior race? It is saying White males are better than everyone else, so other races need assistance in being "equal".
No, it is stating that white males have been the dominant class in society, and have used government to oppress other groups, therefore the government must repare that, through programs.
Poor people can become rich. Class does not restrict that.
Statistics say differently.
There are loads and loads and loads of scholarships available for people to goto the college. THE STUDENT MUST BE MOTIVATED.
Scholarships are limited. Something must be done to address the masses who have been affected by past oppression.
I've said it before and I will say it again...Once the government assumes responsibility for its people, people lose responsibility for themselves.
Government is the people, and should be used for the betterment of lives.
Students attend class.
Are these students getting the same quality of education? No, it is divided up along class lines.

If you don't attend school, and you do not have good parenting, then you will not succeed. It is that simple.
You can eliminate the conditions that create that and increase motivation. The lack of motivation is an expression of this failed system, not a lack of interest. If you provide a student with a working model, then you will see motivation. As it is now, kids in the inner city have no working model.

Is it the government's fault for bad parenting? A lack of motivation?
It is the government's fault for creating conditions like that arise. It is no coincident that there is a correlation with bad parenting and poverty. Furthermore, do not generalise whether or not groups are receiving bad parenting.

And you talk about groups? Who is to say one minority group is better or worse than the next?
I never posited such a thing. I believe oppressed groups are deserving of equal help with affirmative action.

[cal1082]

If you believe it plays no role, then that's foolish.

The fact is, there are specific groups which were systematically denied both political and economic rights. The government sanctioned this. As Martin Luther King said, you cannot oppress a people for centuries, then grant them freedom and expect them to be able to compete in society. You must provide programs so they have acces to the tools that will allow them to compete in our society. To this end, the government must take action, as it institutionalised the racism and sexism that hindered the progress of these specific groups.

I didnt say it plays no role, but it's not one of the main signifcant ones. It's simply the easiest thing to blame because that's how we do it here.........throw money at problems

[Love As Arson]

Just because education is not valued as highly in the urban communities of America, it is not the government's fault.
This is fallacious, but I will still address it. Government policies are responsible for the state that urban communities, who are made up of large minority populations, are in. It is not hard to see the correlation.

[Love As Arson]

1607 ...the first town was in America to 1865?

400 years in America? come on now. Even 1965 makes it 350.

And for alot of the time it was only half of the country.
You do realise that the North Atlantic Slave trade predates that time period? Moreover, do you know anything about the share-cropping system? It was essentially fuedalism for freed slaves, who could find no work. All legislation created to help African-Americans during the reconstruction was repealed by Jim Crow laws. As you can see, oppression did not end with the abolition of slavery. They were given poor schools, restricted rights as far as creating businesses and voting, and were paid low-wages. Given these conditions, how do you expect a population to amass wealth and pick themselves up by their bootstraps? And do not speak as though racism was not prevalent in northern states. If one looks at Jim Crow laws, you find a number of northern instituted these laws.

[catscradle]

The government's job is whatever the people desire it to be.

That isn't what affirmative action does. It simply allows groups to have access to opportunities they do not have access to because of government's institutionalised oppression.

The problem is class restricts one's ability to pursue dreams. Statistics bear this out. The vast majority of people do not transcend their class. Are we to believe that all of these individuals simply have no motivation, or is there a systemic problem?

It is not reverse discrimnation, if there even is such a thing. Affirmative action is about access. The dominant culture cannot take part in such programs because they have access to them, for the most part, at birth.
There should be programs for poor whites, do not get me wrong, but there are special programs that are necessary to bypass the racism that is implicit in our country's institutions.
omg i have never seen something so wrong than this post.


how can you seriously deny reverse discrimination?

how is it not discriminating against the race that is not subject to the affirmative action?

[catscradle]

I'll just say this, African Americans are far from an oppressed people in this day and age.

[justinevans]

No, it is stating that white males have been the dominant class in society, and have used government to oppress other groups, therefore the government must repare that, through programs.

Statistics say differently.

Scholarships are limited. Something must be done to address the masses who have been affected by past oppression.

Government is the people, and should be used for the betterment of lives.

Are these students getting the same quality of education? No, it is divided up along class lines.


You can eliminate the conditions that create that and increase motivation. The lack of motivation is an expression of this failed system, not a lack of interest. If you provide a student with a working model, then you will see motivation. As it is now, kids in the inner city have no working model.


It is the government's fault for creating conditions like that arise. It is no coincident that there is a correlation with bad parenting and poverty. Furthermore, do not generalise whether or not groups are receiving bad parenting.


I never posited such a thing. I believe oppressed groups are deserving of equal help with affirmative action.

The government does not make people join gangs, do drugs, MURDER PEOPLE. Opression of their ancestors does not make that happen. There also things called...PUBLIC LIBRARIES. If these students do not feel they are getting what they deserve out of their school system, they can take the initiative

Affirmative Action exists for jobs such as Firemen. This is a job that involves the safety of the public. The best people, no matter their color, should be the people with the jobs.

Affirmative Action still produces one race to be Superior. Also, what happens when Latins are the majority race in 20 years?

Government is the people? Keep dreaming.

[cal1082]

This is fallacious, but I will still address it. Government policies are responsible for the state that urban communities, who are made up of large minority populations, are in. It is not hard to see the correlation.

Also look at the ethics, crime, and values of the inner cities and it's not hard to see that correlation.

Poverty does not make you have bad values and a criminal. Just gives you an easy excuse

[justinevans]

Also look at the ethics, crime, and values of the inner cities and it's not hard to see that correlation. poverty has not direct relation to these it's just an excuse.

If it isn't the government's fault, it is no one's.

[Love As Arson]

how can you seriously deny reverse discrimination?
There is no such thing as reverse discrimination. It is essentially a myth.

how is it not discriminating against the race that is not subject to the affirmative action?
Well, let me put it in more simpler terms. I am running a race against someone. They, in order to gain the reward, pay off the referee to let them get a head start. Now, this becomes evident to the committee. Are we to let the race stand, as I should have been able to catch up, or shall we begin the race anew, where we are on equal footing? Is it discriminatory to give me that access to the one who had the head start or is it fair?

[justinevans]

There is no such thing as reverse discrimination. It is essentially a myth.

Well, let me put it in more simpler terms. I am running a race against someone. They, in order to gain the reward, pay off the referee to let them get a head start. Now, this becomes evident to the committee. Are we to let the race stand, as I should have been able to catch up, or shall we begin the race anew, where we are on equal footing? Is it discriminatory to give me that access to the one who had the head start or is it fair?

A Myth? are you fucking kidding me? Someone is being discriminated against because there is not an equal playing field.

Your analogy for Affirmative Action should be more like this.

The minority racer starts at the 1 mile marker in a 2 mile race and the white guy starts at the 0 mile marker, the starting line. That is what Affirmative Action. Numerous students who HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SLAVERY AND SEGREGATION are being discriminated against because of Affirmative Action and quotas. Still, what happens when Euro-Centric Whites are no longer the majority. We are nearing that moment soon.

Want to reward them? Send them back to their homeland, which many know nothing about, and send them back to their black ancestors, whom were of course part of the slave trading process as they sold their own people.

Oh, look it up too, the first slaves in America were White.

[Love As Arson]

The government does not make people join gangs, do drugs, MURDER PEOPLE. Opression of their ancestors does not make that happen.
The government is complicit in creating the conditions which allowed those values to become dominant. There is quiate a clear correlation between crime and poverty. So, it is easy to see how government has created these conditions in the African-American community, given its policies were enacted to relegate African-Americans to those conditions. As such, it is responsible to alleviate that which they had a hand in creating.
There also things called...PUBLIC LIBRARIES. If these students do not feel they are getting what they deserve out of their school system, they can take the initiative
The children have an expectation of fairness and quality. That is similar to saying one should buy a gun in order to take an initiative against crime because there is no expectation of the police doing their job.

Affirmative Action exists for jobs such as Firemen. This is a job that involves the safety of the public. The best people, no matter their color, should be the people with the jobs.
This only reasserts your lack of understanding of affirmative action. It is not the condition that simply because you are black you get a job, but that because you are black and qualified you have the access to colleges and jobs. Would it bother you at all if a black man, who was qualified, was hired over a white man simply because he was black?

Affirmative Action still produces one race to be Superior. Also, what happens when Latins are the majority race in 20 years?
Your assertion is false, it simply creates a level playing field, which would not occur if minorities were simply left with nothing but legal precedent. I am assuming conditions in this country will be much different at that time, so I cannot speculate as to what they will do.

Government is the people? Keep dreaming.
That is the founding principle of democracy. It is only your attitude that breaks this down. The government becomes a problem when it is an external force, outside of the people, which is why Americans must make government theirs and have it carry out their will.

[Love As Arson]

A Myth? are you fucking kidding me?
There is either discrimination or there isn't. Reverse discrimination is a myth, because it implies it is extraordinary, when it is nothing of the sort.
Someone is being discriminated against because there is not an equal playing field.
Really? Whom?

The minority racer starts at the 1 mile marker in a 2 mile race and the white guy starts at the 0 mile marker, the starting line. That is what Affirmative Action.
I suppose that it what it is if one has no understanding of the policy. Again, educate yourself, then begin to speak on the subject.

Numerous students who HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SLAVERY AND SEGREGATION are being discriminated against because of Affirmative Action and quotas.
They are not. Statistics bare that out. Furthermore, they may have had nothing to do with it, however, they reap the benefits of it, in that, their ancestors were allowed to accumulate wealth, whereas African-Americans were not. The lack of competing forces in accumulating wealth allowed caucasians to have unequal access to the jobs, benefits and ability to start businesses.

Want to reward them? Send them back to their homeland, which many know nothing about, and send them back to their black ancestors, whom were of course part of the slave trading process as they sold their own people.
Ah, I see, bad behaviour justifies bad behaviour, regardless of whom truly benefitted from it?

Oh, look it up too, the first slaves in America were White.
I never denied it. However, the prevalence of such a practice diminished exponentially when African slaves began to be imported and the ideology of white supremacy was being crafted in the Americas.

[Love As Arson]

Also look at the ethics, crime, and values of the inner cities and it's not hard to see that correlation.

Poverty does not make you have bad values and a criminal. Just gives you an easy excuse
Poverty elicits the creation of differing values from the mainstream, hence the crime rate in poverty stricken streets.

[x togepi x]

the term "reverse discrimination" is racist.

why should white people get their own special kind of discrimination?

If you consider AA discrimation, call it that. Don't put it in its own special category.

[justinevans]

The government is complicit in creating the conditions which allowed those values to become dominant. There is quiate a clear correlation between crime and poverty. So, it is easy to see how government has created these conditions in the African-American community, given its policies were enacted to relegate African-Americans to those conditions. As such, it is responsible to alleviate that which they had a hand in creating.

The Government created these conditions? Give me a fucking break. The poverty rate is higher in other countries and Americans have higher crimes rates. Why is that? What about people in the country that are not given fair conditions? Like you said, the government is the people. Who are you going to blame it on? The people or the government. And for once, look something up...African-Americans don't benefit the most from Affirmative Action. Also, when you have more people of the majority race, you should expect more people to have those jobs.

The children have an expectation of fairness and quality. That is similar to saying one should buy a gun in order to take an initiative against crime because there is no expectation of the police doing their job.

The children have to goto school to have that expectation. Look at the graduation rates of inner-city schools. They are hurrendous. People also have to take responsibility for themselves, but no they have people like you that put the blame on someone else for them. Crime and Education are something totally different. Why shouldn't someone want to learn more outside of what the school teaches them. Also, I had black kids in my school. Given the same opportunity as everyone else, and they still missed class often.


This only reasserts your lack of understanding of affirmative action. It is not the condition that simply because you are black you get a job, but that because you are black and qualified you have the access to colleges and jobs. Would it bother you at all if a black man, who was qualified, was hired over a white man simply because he was black?

I do not have a lack of understanding affirmative action. It is based on quotas and tests points. Minorities receive more points soley based on race. They receive a benefit soley based on race. That is the most broad form of the definition of racism. If they are qualified, they are qualified, but does not mean someone cannot be more qualified and you want the most qualified person in the position. I don't care if he black, white, grey, red, or whatever color.


Your assertion is false, it simply creates a level playing field, which would not occur if minorities were simply left with nothing but legal precedent. I am assuming conditions in this country will be much different at that time, so I cannot speculate as to what they will do.

It is not false. When you consider one race inferior to another and thus decide to aid them to get into a system, that means another race must be superior.

That is the founding principle of democracy. It is only your attitude that breaks this down. The government becomes a problem when it is an external force, outside of the people, which is why Americans must make government theirs and have it carry out their will.

Your attitude breaks it down when people like you blame everything on the government rather than the people.

[Jentheoptimist]

We all know the truly negative forms of racism, but do we overlook though, in good faith, other forms. I was listening to the radio today and they were talking about how Gates donated something like a billion dollars to the minority fund for education. I forget the specific name. Anyway, a general definition of the term racism is any policy based on a race. Do things such as Affirmative Action, specific schools (such as Grambling State), and other organizations that single a specific race out or group be considered racism?

This is just for an open discussion. Personally, it was just a topic that caused me to think. Is segregation just as wrong when it is voluntary as when it is demanded?

Speak.
I've actually had this argument on here before, I believe it is racist to a certain extent, and very case sensitive. I think it's really unfair the hypocrisy that goes on especially in the black community, they have caucasians walking on egg shells as to not offend them. Yet they have carte blanche to say what they want and form these organizations, if we as caucasians were to do the same we would be crucified, and forced to incorporate minorities if we wanted to be allowed to continue without criticism. Really though the black community needs to ask themselves is Affirmative Action really a victory for them as a race? It has no merit whatsoever, it's basically an organization that hands employers these guidelines and ultimatums that guarantee/force job placement based on race. If I were an african american women and I got a job based on race over someone who is more qualfied, I wouldn't want it. It's racism at it's most blantant form but because it benifits them it then becomes okay. Which is a step back for the integrity of the black community, hence the sterotypes of bad work ethics of the african american people. I hate the argument that it can't be done any other way, because you then need to be refered to your closest womens lib. class. I am by no means a racist, I just call people as I see them, I believe every single race is flawed severely. I just don't think it's fair that one particular race (this case being african americans) can call racism unjust and yet take hand outs because of it, then demand equality between the races. It's just plain hypocrisy.

[justinevans]

There is either discrimination or there isn't. Reverse discrimination is a myth, because it implies it is extraordinary, when it is nothing of the sort.

Really? Whom?

I suppose that it what it is if one has no understanding of the policy. Again, educate yourself, then begin to speak on the subject.

They are not. Statistics bare that out. Furthermore, they may have had nothing to do with it, however, they reap the benefits of it, in that, their ancestors were allowed to accumulate wealth, whereas African-Americans were not. The lack of competing forces in accumulating wealth allowed caucasians to have unequal access to the jobs, benefits and ability to start businesses.

Ah, I see, bad behaviour justifies bad behaviour, regardless of whom truly benefitted from it?

I never denied it. However, the prevalence of such a practice diminished exponentially when African slaves began to be imported and the ideology of white supremacy was being crafted in the Americas.

Proponents of such policies argue that they bring about a closer equality of opportunities among groups by creating an increase in opportunities for historically disadvantaged groups.

The definition or delineation of disadvantaged groups is a tricky matter, as well as the definition of disadvantage itself. For example, a purely race-based definition ignores any advantage or disadvantage from class. In the United States, where most affirmative action is mainly in favor of African-Americans and Latinos, many critics point out that such policies do not help poor whites or Asians. 1 Critics of reverse discrimination, typically in the politically and socially dominant groups, believe proponents take a situational stand where a principled stand is more appropriate, arguing that the practice replaces one form of discrimination with another.

In some states, such as the United Kingdom, reverse discriminatory practices are not given special consideration and is considered illegal under anti-discrimination laws. In the UK, though, employers may offer benefits such as training solely to disadvantaged races or classes, where a given job role is not held by a notable proportion of members of that group.

Examples of the effects can be seen in both the job market and college admissions. With quotas of minorities to fill, it may be necessary for the common sociopolitical groups to be passed over in certain circumstances to select a candidate solely due to their sociopolitical background. It is worth noting that in particular, racial quotas for collegiate admission were held to be unconstitutional in the United States, although non-quota race preferences in admissions are legal.

Taking right from Wikipedia.

I'll call it positive discrimination if that makes you feel better, but it is still discrimination against one race. I agree things have hurt, but why is there nothing for poor white folks on farms? Why do latins benefit when they came to America as refugees? What have we done to them?

[justinevans]

I've actually had this argument on here before, I believe it is racist to a certain extent, and very case sensitive. I think it's really unfair the hypocrisy that goes on especially in the black community, they have caucasians walking on egg shells as to not offend them. Yet they have carte blanche to say what they want and form these organizations, if we as caucasians were to do the same we would be crucified, and forced to incorporate minorities if we wanted to be allowed to continue without criticism. Really though the black community needs to ask themselves is Affirmative Action really a victory for them as a race? It has no merit whatsoever, it's basically an organization that hands employers these guidelines and ultimatums that guarantee/force job placement based on race. If I were an african american women and I got a job based on race over someone who is more qualfied, I wouldn't want it. It's racism at it's most blantant form but because it benifits them it then becomes okay. Which is a step back for the integrity of the black community, hence the sterotypes of bad work ethics of the african american people. I hate the argument that it can't be done any other way, because you then need to be refered to your closest womens lib. class. I am by no means a racist, I just call people as I see them, I believe every single race is flawed severely. I just don't think it's fair that one particular race (this case being african american) can call racism unjust and yet take hand outs because of it, then demand equality between the races. It's just plain hypocrisy.

Thank you.

[vandalsandquinn]

no

[The Revisionist]

All that stuff you saidI adore you.

[Love As Arson]

The Government created these conditions? Give me a fucking break.
Did they not relegate African-Americans to poverty with their repressive policies, or are they to be given a pass for such actions?
The poverty rate is higher in other countries and Americans have higher crimes rates. Why is that? What about people in the country that are not given fair conditions?
Actually, among industralised countries, the US is ahead in terms of povery rates.
The people or the government. And for once, look something up...African-Americans don't benefit the most from Affirmative Action.
Actually, since the inception of affirmative action, the groups covered under the program have seen an increase in gaining degrees, high school graduation and gaining jobs. That, however, is relative to their status prior to the programs use.
Also, when you have more people of the majority race, you should expect more people to have those jobs.
Proportionally, inequality still persists.

The children have to goto school to have that expectation. Look at the graduation rates of inner-city schools. They are hurrendous.
Let us look at the qualities of the schools, first, which are deplorable. The quality of schools run along class lines, so is it at all surprising that those who go to low quality schools are unable to compete?

People also have to take responsibility for themselves, but no they have people like you that put the blame on someone else for them
I place blame where it is due. For all the talk of responsibility, you refuse to allow government to take responsibility for its past actions against specific groups, saying that it goes against individual responsibility. However, using your own logic, ones ins that it is the definition of accountability to provide those groups with benefits.

Crime and Education are something totally different. Why shouldn't someone want to learn more outside of what the school teaches them.
I never said that they should not learn outside of school. I am saying is that there is an expectation of quality, which is not being met and to place the burden upon the child is illogical, given that the government's rhetoric has always been one of desiring quality education.

Also, I had black kids in my school. Given the same opportunity as everyone else, and they still missed class often.
That is borderline racist. In any case, I am going to say this, with all due respect, but your personal experience means nothing. It is meaningless and is of no consequence to this debate, so please, for the sake of intelligent debate, refrain from putting it forth as though it is some absolute truth, by which we should judge the world.
I do not have a lack of understanding affirmative action. It is based on quotas and tests points. Minorities receive more points soley based on race. They receive a benefit soley based on race. That is the most broad form of the definition of racism. If they are qualified, they are qualified, but does not mean someone cannot be more qualified and you want the most qualified person in the position. I don't care if he black, white, grey, red, or whatever color.
Actually, affirmative action is about access of qualified individuals of specific groups. Quotas were used in the early days of the program, but have since been deemed illegal and in most cases fallen out of use. As for the point system, that is only relevant if one believes it is indicative of how they will perform in schools. Studies have consistently shown that they do not. What it allows is qualified minorities to be allowed access. Is that a bad thing? I hardly think so if all we are looking for is qualified individuals.

It is not false. When you consider one race inferior to another and thus decide to aid them to get into a system, that means another race must be superior
I see a man who has been shot in the knee as needing healing before he can race. Does that mean I view him as an inferior competitor? No, it means that I acknowledge an injury that inhibits his ability to compete.

[Love As Arson]

Proponents of such policies argue that they bring about a closer equality of opportunities among groups by creating an increase in opportunities for historically disadvantaged groups.

The definition or delineation of disadvantaged groups is a tricky matter, as well as the definition of disadvantage itself. For example, a purely race-based definition ignores any advantage or disadvantage from class. In the United States, where most affirmative action is mainly in favor of African-Americans and Latinos, many critics point out that such policies do not help poor whites or Asians. 1 Critics of reverse discrimination, typically in the politically and socially dominant groups, believe proponents take a situational stand where a principled stand is more appropriate, arguing that the practice replaces one form of discrimination with another.

In some states, such as the United Kingdom, reverse discriminatory practices are not given special consideration and is considered illegal under anti-discrimination laws. In the UK, though, employers may offer benefits such as training solely to disadvantaged races or classes, where a given job role is not held by a notable proportion of members of that group.

Examples of the effects can be seen in both the job market and college admissions. With quotas of minorities to fill, it may be necessary for the common sociopolitical groups to be passed over in certain circumstances to select a candidate solely due to their sociopolitical background. It is worth noting that in particular, racial quotas for collegiate admission were held to be unconstitutional in the United States, although non-quota race preferences in admissions are legal.

Taking right from Wikipedia.
The document should get its facts straight. Asian Americans did benefit from affirmative action. In any case, I am not sure what you are trying to prove by posting an article, rather than arguing my points.

I'll call it positive discrimination if that makes you feel better, but it is still discrimination against one race. I agree things have hurt, but why is there nothing for poor white folks on farms? Why do latins benefit when they came to America as refugees? What have we done to them?
I support affirmative action for poor whites, as well, however, I am sure I would hear cries that, "Poor people are taking our jobs". As for Latinos, racism against them was prevalent as well.

[Love As Arson]

Your attitude breaks it down when people like you blame everything on the government rather than the people.
The people must take control of government. Especially now, as one can see the gap between public opinion and policy has increased.

[Love As Arson]

I think it's really unfair the hypocrisy that goes on especially in the black community, they have caucasians walking on egg shells as to not offend them. Yet they have carte blanche to say what they want and form these organizations, if we as caucasians were to do the same we would be crucified, and forced to incorporate minorities if we wanted to be allowed to continue without criticism.
There are various caucasian groups, formed along the lines of ethnicity. Furthermore, if one looks at the status of the caucasian, is a group for their advancement necessary? No, it is only a double standard if one is on equal footing. In this case, they are not, circumstances are different, therefore to say a double-standard exists ignores the facts.
Really though the black community needs to ask themselves is Affirmative Action really a victory for them as a race? It has no merit whatsoever, it's basically an organization that hands employers these guidelines and ultimatums that guarantee/force job placement based on race. If I were an african american women and I got a job based on race over someone who is more qualfied, I wouldn't want it.
That is a bit condescending, as it implies that there is no moral debate in the African-American community. The question you should ask yourself is this, "If I were an African-American woman, who was qualified, and was given a job over a white woman who had the same credentials,because I was black, would I take the job? Would I be racist for doing so?" These assertions of unqualified individuals getting job have yet to meet the burden of porrof.

It's racism at it's most blantant form but because it benifits them it then becomes okay.
Racism implies they are being given something special. Under affirmative action, they are being given that which is the norm for whites: Access.
Which is a step back for the integrity of the black community, hence the sterotypes of bad work ethics of the african american people.
The stereotypes existed prior to the civil rights movement that bore this program. It was propogated by caucasians to maintain dominance and limit the ability of blacks to get jobs.
I am by no means a racist, I just call people as I see them, I believe every single race is flawed severely. I just don't think it's fair that one particular race (this case being african americans) can call racism unjust and yet take hand outs because of it, then demand equality between the races. It's just plain hypocrisy.
They are demanding equality, hence the necessity for programs which allow them to be on equal footing. Again, hypocrisy would be for asking for more, they are simply asking for the norm.

[x togepi x]

The people must take control of government. Especially now, as one can see the gap between public opinion and policy has increased.

haha. won't happen.

[Broken Parachute]

Maybe if they all just got jobs and quit complaining about how everyone is racist to them, they wouldn't have to live in the projects. :shrugs: </joke>

[justinevans]

Did they not relegate African-Americans to poverty with their repressive policies, or are they to be given a pass for such actions?

Actually, among industralised countries, the US is ahead in terms of povery rates.

Actually, since the inception of affirmative action, the groups covered under the program have seen an increase in gaining degrees, high school graduation and gaining jobs. That, however, is relative to their status prior to the programs use.

Proportionally, inequality still persists.

Let us look at the qualities of the schools, first, which are deplorable. The quality of schools run along class lines, so is it at all surprising that those who go to low quality schools are unable to compete?

I place blame where it is due. For all the talk of responsibility, you refuse to allow government to take responsibility for its past actions against specific groups, saying that it goes against individual responsibility. However, using your own logic, ones ins that it is the definition of accountability to provide those groups with benefits.

I never said that they should not learn outside of school. I am saying is that there is an expectation of quality, which is not being met and to place the burden upon the child is illogical, given that the government's rhetoric has always been one of desiring quality education.

That is borderline racist. In any case, I am going to say this, with all due respect, but your personal experience means nothing. It is meaningless and is of no consequence to this debate, so please, for the sake of intelligent debate, refrain from putting it forth as though it is some absolute truth, by which we should judge the world.

Actually, affirmative action is about access of qualified individuals of specific groups. Quotas were used in the early days of the program, but have since been deemed illegal and in most cases fallen out of use. As for the point system, that is only relevant if one believes it is indicative of how they will perform in schools. Studies have consistently shown that they do not. What it allows is qualified minorities to be allowed access. Is that a bad thing? I hardly think so if all we are looking for is qualified individuals.

I see a man who has been shot in the knee as needing healing before he can race. Does that mean I view him as an inferior competitor? No, it means that I acknowledge an injury that inhibits his ability to compete.

Considering my mother and my grandmother have both taught in Public and Private schools in the Philadelphia area and in suburban schools in New Jersey, they have said the lack of attendance and value of Education is what is different. Just because they do not have the newest books, it does not mean that they cannot read, write, and so forth. The people in the school systems now...past policies may have effected their territorial region that they live in, but they are given the opportunity. The difference between 2nd editions and 4th editions are not much besides history and science. Yeah they may change some typos and pictures. Big wow. However, you should be able to read and write.

My main point is stop focusing on only poor minorities. There are poor white people who are in just as much trouble but they are left out to dry.

Now, I agree something needs to be done, but I don't believe Affirmative Action is the way to do it.

And you still talk about people being qualified. All I am saying is I would rather have the most qualified individual. You keep acting like I care about the color of the person's skin. If one black is a little better than the white guy, I rather have the black guy. Better is simply better.

What really, bothers me is things called Black Universities. They fucking segregate themselves and continue to do so. Yes, I know it is in good faith for the black community, but it is indeed some form of segregation, am I wrong?

[justinevans]

The people must take control of government. Especially now, as one can see the gap between public opinion and policy has increased.

they do take control...they put those people in office that are doing so?

What about what happened in Philly years ago when they had a Black mayor and they said all black contractors must be made an offer? What is the difference there?

What people overlook is that every race is racist. If black people were in power or latinos, the same policies would exist.

[Love As Arson]

Considering my mother and my grandmother have both taught in Public and Private schools in the Philadelphia area and in suburban schools in New Jersey, they have said the lack of attendance and value of Education is what is different.
Again, what is it that creates differing values from the mainstream? The conditions of one's surrounding directly corresponds to their values. A lot of lip service is given to the need for better education, however, little is done in the communities that need it most to ensure those values, rather than values like crime, are dominant.
The people in the school systems now...past policies may have effected their territorial region that they live in, but they are given the opportunity. The difference between 2nd editions and 4th editions are not much besides history and science. Yeah they may change some typos and pictures. Big wow. However, you should be able to read and write.
It is not simply the conditions of the books, but many schools have one computer, leaky ceilings, large classrooms, etc. All of these are not conducive to teaching. You posit that there is not much of a difference given the conditions, but if we are at all concerned about having these kids compete in the world, they need to be given the best, not second best. If you are so sure that the second hand books and poor conditions of the schools are not to blame for suburban schools doing better than inner city schools, then what is to blame? It cannot be that all of them are simply criminals.

My main point is stop focusing on only poor minorities. There are poor white people who are in just as much trouble but they are left out to dry.
I've said that there must be programs for poor whites.

Now, I agree something needs to be done, but I don't believe Affirmative Action is the way to do it.
Shall we let the free market take care of it?


And you still talk about people being qualified. All I am saying is I would rather have the most qualified individual. You keep acting like I care about the color of the person's skin. If one black is a little better than the white guy, I rather have the black guy. Better is simply better.
And you've yet to meet the burden of proof for that argument. You have provided no instances in which unqualified minorities, given their jobs because of affirmative action, have caused some sort of terrible incident.

What really, bothers me is things called Black Universities. They fucking segregate themselves and continue to do so. Yes, I know it is in good faith for the black community, but it is indeed some form of segregation, am I wrong?
There is a difference between being historically black and actively keeping whites from attending colleges.

[Love As Arson]

they do take control...they put those people in office that are doing so?
Explain, then, the deficit between public opinion and policy put forth by government. What we have now are representatives that we vote for that carry out corporate agendas. The public must take control and put worthy candidates into power now.

What about what happened in Philly years ago when they had a Black mayor and they said all black contractors must be made an offer? What is the difference there?
It was well-meaning. Would I have done it in that manner? Probably not, but it is important to give all opportunities.

What people overlook is that every race is racist. If black people were in power or latinos, the same policies would exist.
Speculation.

[justinevans]

Alright,

This is my ultimate opinion on the matter. When you use policies to combat people's beliefs it does not work. Yes, I agree it does help minorities, moreso latinos than blacks, however, I think it further bridges the openmindedness of whites and produces more racism. Whether they are taking jobs or not, people have that perception about it. Every race is prejudice against one another. Of course there are people whom are more openminded than others, but then they are prejudice against people in their own group who do not feel the same. I just find it all to be one big hypocrisy.

[EnderDove]

The KKK, skin heads, and anything to do with Hitler fascinate me. Never cease to interest me.

[boysdontcry17]

could it be said that racism/discrimiation/prejudice is just part of human nature in a psychological level (whether innate or learned)

[dai the flu]

so black culture today is all about the bling and the nice rims and the bitches and the drug running and the crack addict baby mamas because of the government? i didnt know that.
i have a question. how come the only african-americans embraced by the black youth today are the ones promoting the "thug" life? and why is this the white's fault?
public school. go to it. study. apply yourself. go to college. quit trying to live in ice cube's gangsta' nation and get your life straight. quit using ancient history as an excuse for failure and overcome lifes problems like the rest of us. by trying.

[justinevans]

so black culture today is all about the bling and the nice rims and the bitches and the drug running and the crack addict baby mamas because of the government? i didnt know that.
i have a question. how come the only african-americans embraced by the black youth today are the ones promoting the "thug" life? and why is this the white's fault?
public school. go to it. study. apply yourself. go to college. quit trying to live in ice cube's gangsta' nation and get your life straight. quit using ancient history as an excuse for failure and overcome lifes problems like the rest of us. by trying.

sad, but often true.

[rokbandersnatch]

could it be said that racism/discrimiation/prejudice is just part of human nature in a psychological level (whether innate or learned)

I actually do agree with this somewhat far-fetched sounding proposition. It is very true that it shaped into our psychological minds before we even are born. did you know that when we're in our mother's womb that things that are happening around her affect us also.

[catscradle]

I actually do agree with this somewhat far-fetched sounding proposition. It is very true that it shaped into our psychological minds before we even are born. did you know that when we're in our mother's womb that things that are happening around her affect us also.
it actually is a part of our social psychological complex. We have a tendency to group things in our mind as with us or not with us, and this is what leads us to discriminate and prejudge those that aren't in our "group."

[hollywoodchase]

so black culture today is all about the bling and the nice rims and the bitches and the drug running and the crack addict baby mamas because of the government? i didnt know that.
i have a question. how come the only african-americans embraced by the black youth today are the ones promoting the "thug" life? and why is this the white's fault?
public school. go to it. study. apply yourself. go to college. quit trying to live in ice cube's gangsta' nation and get your life straight. quit using ancient history as an excuse for failure and overcome lifes problems like the rest of us. by trying.

Up until now, the oppsoing writer to ideas like this has restrained his urge to call you people outright racists, but this claim draws the line, especially with agreement from paris1sinflames.

To suggest that the entire "black youth" is under the impression that rapping or playing basketball is their only way out proves just how little you know about African-Americans or anything really. Also, when you say things like "the only african-americans embraced..." you sound pretty ignorant, considering that the highest regarded African-Americans were figures of peace and civil rights like Martin Luther King Jr.

In other news, to suggest that "Black colleges," are inherantly racist, you might want to suggest the statistics of other private schools such as Villanova, or many other schools that charge over 40,000 a year, and see how white they are, without calling it a white college.

Please, I know that opinions aren't going to change from this forum, but don't go flashing statements around like, "they all want to be rappers," or "all it takes is to stop committing crimes and start studying," because some people might actually believe this.

[boysdontcry17]

I actually do agree with this somewhat far-fetched sounding proposition. It is very true that it shaped into our psychological minds before we even are born. did you know that when we're in our mother's womb that things that are happening around her affect us also.

well it has been present since the earliest times so one would be inclined to think that it is part of human behaviour. i say, it could be learned behaviour because it has been in existance for so long so maybe it is something we are born with. by that i mean that, we are indifferent (at the very least) to strangers, newcomers and those that are unlike us because we are in competition and because we are unfamiliar with them. think Darwing. for example, a stranger shows up in a small town, the new kid at school, or an outcast tries to join a tribe. all cases of discrimination. dont quote me on this, just one man's opinion. assuming for a second, that the above is correct, it doesnt make it morally right.

[boysdontcry17]

Up until now, the oppsoing writer to ideas like this has restrained his urge to call you people outright racists, but this claim draws the line, especially with agreement from paris1sinflames.

To suggest that the entire "black youth" is under the impression that rapping or playing basketball is their only way out proves just how little you know about African-Americans or anything really. Also, when you say things like "the only african-americans embraced..." you sound pretty ignorant, considering that the highest regarded African-Americans were figures of peace and civil rights like Martin Luther King Jr.

In other news, to suggest that "Black colleges," are inherantly racist, you might want to suggest the statistics of other private schools such as Villanova, or many other schools that charge over 40,000 a year, and see how white they are, without calling it a white college.

Please, I know that opinions aren't going to change from this forum, but don't go flashing statements around like, "they all want to be rappers," or "all it takes is to stop committing crimes and start studying," because some people might actually believe this.

probably the smartest thing i've read in an AP forum

[justinevans]

Up until now, the oppsoing writer to ideas like this has restrained his urge to call you people outright racists, but this claim draws the line, especially with agreement from paris1sinflames.

To suggest that the entire "black youth" is under the impression that rapping or playing basketball is their only way out proves just how little you know about African-Americans or anything really. Also, when you say things like "the only african-americans embraced..." you sound pretty ignorant, considering that the highest regarded African-Americans were figures of peace and civil rights like Martin Luther King Jr.

In other news, to suggest that "Black colleges," are inherantly racist, you might want to suggest the statistics of other private schools such as Villanova, or many other schools that charge over 40,000 a year, and see how white they are, without calling it a white college.

Please, I know that opinions aren't going to change from this forum, but don't go flashing statements around like, "they all want to be rappers," or "all it takes is to stop committing crimes and start studying," because some people might actually believe this.

I've know more black people who have attended Villanova than white people. It is a Christian school and a private school, meaning that no students there receive public government aid. Calling it a white school? That is out of line. It is a fairly prestigious academic University and that is why tuition is high in addition to their not being as many students as a public university (they have more costs to cover) So it is more for people who can afford it, no matter the race. If more white people can afford it, so be it? It does not mean they need to lower the tuition. You also need to look at the # of applicants compared to the # of each race accepted.

I wrote a paper on this subject awhile back. It was for a black teacher too in racism class and he appreciated it. I will load it up after dinner.

[dai the flu]

Up until now, the oppsoing writer to ideas like this has restrained his urge to call you people outright racists, but this claim draws the line, especially with agreement from paris1sinflames.

To suggest that the entire "black youth" is under the impression that rapping or playing basketball is their only way out proves just how little you know about African-Americans or anything really. Also, when you say things like "the only african-americans embraced..." you sound pretty ignorant, considering that the highest regarded African-Americans were figures of peace and civil rights like Martin Luther King Jr.

Please, I know that opinions aren't going to change from this forum, but don't go flashing statements around like, "they all want to be rappers," or "all it takes is to stop committing crimes and start studying," because some people might actually believe this.

my mistake was implying that all black people act like this. obviously there are many exceptions.
i never said that black youth feel rapping or basketball or anything of the like is their only way out. but when the majority of black youth in an area idolize and emulate the gangsta rap lifestyle of drugs and violence and then complain that its the whites oppression holding them back? no thanks. i dont buy it.
i see it firsthand, i know what its like.
and i dont blame the youth for feeling that way. who do they have as role models today? t.i.? g-unit?
sure you say there's plenty of outstanding examples for them to follow like denzel washington and jamie foxx and etc... but when it comes right down to it, who do they have hanging on posters on their wall? thats right. 50 cent 'get rich or die tryin'.
and thats not a racist attitude. its a realistic one. the ignorant ones here are the ones too stuck on their own idealized vision of society to really see the truth about things.

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

yes to racism

[Blake Solomon]

I would highly recommend everyone hear read the book "Racism without Racists" by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva. It speaks of how people today that claim fervently to not be rascist still have many racial prejudices, how our culture has taught us to just accept things how they are and not try to change. The thought that blacks and whites or hispanics dont mix because they are "too different" or "want to be separate" is absurd. Its a very interesting read that doesn't point fingers and tries to solve a problem that will probably never be solved.

[x togepi x]

I actually do agree with this somewhat far-fetched sounding proposition. It is very true that it shaped into our psychological minds before we even are born. did you know that when we're in our mother's womb that things that are happening around her affect us also.

no because race is a social construct. there's no biological basis for it, therefore, if we were to elminate the construct of race from upbringing our children, we could, in theory, eliminate racism.

[justinevans]

no because race is a social construct. there's no biological basis for it, therefore, if we were to elminate the construct of race from upbringing our children, we could, in theory, eliminate racism.

you may have to eliminate the 5 senses too.

[catscradle]

you may have to eliminate the 5 senses too.
exactly, or atleast visual stimui.

[x togepi x]

you may have to eliminate the 5 senses too.

take a basic anthropology class. There is nothing biological about race. It's been constructed by society. If you break that down, you would get rid of racism. Sure, us already born would remain racist (though I don't buy that 'everyone's a little racist' bs), but the future generations would not.

five senses? I'm white. I highly doubt a Black person is going to smell, feel, taste and sound all that different from me. We chose skin colour for arbitrary reasons back in the early part of history to define race, but skin colour is based on adapting to the environment.

that's all it means. society tells us that there are inherent differences in racial groups, and that's the problem.

[justinevans]

take a basic anthropology class. There is nothing biological about race. It's been constructed by society. If you break that down, you would get rid of racism. Sure, us already born would remain racist (though I don't buy that 'everyone's a little racist' bs), but the future generations would not.

five senses? I'm white. I highly doubt a Black person is going to smell, feel, taste and sound all that different from me. We chose skin colour for arbitrary reasons back in the early part of history to define race, but skin colour is based on adapting to the environment.

that's all it means. society tells us that there are inherent differences in racial groups, and that's the problem.

there is nothing in our lifetime that any of us will be able to do about racism.

[x togepi x]

That might be true, but that doesn't mean that it can't be eliminated entirely. Maybe not in our lifetime, but generations down the road.

[richter915]

I like when white kids complain about affirmative action and how it's not fair that kids who try harder than them do better in school.

[Zeran]

is it racism when things are biased against whites? or is it not because they're the minority? serious question, not being a douche.

[justinevans]

That might be true, but that doesn't mean that it can't be eliminated entirely. Maybe not in our lifetime, but generations down the road.

maybe, but prejudices will always exist.

[richter915]

is it racism when things are biased against whites? or is it not because they're the minority? serious question, not being a douche.
I think it's racism by definition. My opinion is that most things that're against whites in America is a result of whites being racist against other groups for most of the history of the US. I'm not saying white america should feel guilty about it...but I think that policies today may lead to equality down the road...hopefully soon too cause I hate people bitching about reverse racism and shit.

[thewibs]

so this is my first post, and what better a topic to start out on than racism?!

affirmative action is a racist idea. giving someone an advantage in the workplace based on any race is a ridiculous idea. if somebody gets a job, it should be because they are the best person for that job, not because they are an asian living in the projects living off of food stamps. just because they come from a poor upbringing doesn't mean they should be given an advantage in the work place. and then if this person complains that the employer is racist, they are technically being racist themselves, thinking that the employer is not hiring him or her just because of their race and background.

maybe i'm totally off, maybe this has already been said, maybe i'll get totally criticized for saying any of that, but whatever. just my opinion :-P