Minarets Banned In Switzerland

[denissuxx]

Swiss voters have supported a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets, official results show.

More than 57% of voters and 22 out of 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban.

The proposal had been put forward by the Swiss People's Party, (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which says minarets are a sign of Islamisation.

The government opposed the ban, saying it would harm Switzerland's image, particularly in the Muslim world.

She sought to reassure Swiss Muslims, saying the decision was "not a rejection of the Muslim community, religion or culture".

Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.


Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8385069.stm

This is a blatent, public, display of Islamophoebia. I am shocked that this could happen in postmodern, secular Europe.

Thoughts?

[KStrat]

Definitely Islamophobia, while I don't nessecarily agree with the religion; I think it's a terrible thing that a few bad eggs have ruined the public's opinion on the whole bunch. I'm sure this will be fought pretty hard.

Too bad this won't ever make an American news network, they're too busy making a big deal about Tiger Woods hitting a fire hydrant/tree.

[joelibyan]

This is a blatent, public, display of Islamophoebia. I am shocked that this could happen in postmodern, secular Europe.

Thoughts?

You should know better. Americans have a rep for being conservative and fundamental, but the Old World is VERY traditional, especially in the smaller towns/countryside. It is indeed blatant and phobic, and the government was not in support if it, but for a country who's identity is wrapped up in its old culture/traditions and historically resistant to ethnicities other than their own, it is shameful, but not shocking.

[saysmydoctor]

Thank you, far right party in Switzerland for distracting the issue.

[Smeee]

Good old democracy!

[open mind]

this shouldn't cause any trouble.

[Machu505]

This is something we need here in the States. Definitely.

[Roboman]

Definitely Islamophobia, while I don't nessecarily agree with the religion; I think it's a terrible thing that a few bad eggs have ruined the public's opinion on the whole bunch. I'm sure this will be fought pretty hard.

Too bad this won't ever make an American news network, they're too busy making a big deal about Tiger Woods hitting a fire hydrant/tree.

Please excuse me while I roll my eyes to the fact that I saw this story on NBC news last night.

[ArTkY_]

Four minarets? And that's Islamisization of the whole country?

[saysmydoctor]

Four minarets? And that's Islamisization of the whole country?
Switzerland's small, that's a lot of minarets per capita.

[Sic Transit Zeb]

wow and people said the US was bad.

[zion the lion]

Are they going to take all of the crosses off of the churches and chapels?

[GuitarR0cker1]

I'm not surprised.

[.invisible ink.]

sheesh. what other forms of architecture will be banned next? this is pretty offensive.

[Machu505]

This is getting overblown. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091130/wl_nm/us_swiss_minarets)

[KStrat]

Please excuse me while I roll my eyes to the fact that I saw this story on NBC news last night.
I missed it. lol. my bad.

[thepianominstre]

There's a difference between Islamophobia because 9/11 was carried out by a few people who called themselves Muslims, and Islamophobia because millions of Muslims are immigrating into your countries, dwarfing out your population with their much higher birth rate, refusing to assimilate and living by their own cruel laws. Regardless of whether or not all of that is really reason for concern, those are the reasons behind the fears of a lot of Europeans, and increasingly, Americans. Read about the honor killings (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-11-29-honor-killings-in-the-US_N.htm?poe=HFMostPopular) and other horrible actions that are becoming more common, even though there's always another Muslim to say that that's not really how our religion works...

I don't know the demographic breakdown of people who call themselves Muslims as far as who claims they're completely peaceful, who claims it's ok to murder your daughter if she rebels too much, and who claims they need to kill all the infidels, but a lot of people are worried that even if there's not too many of the latter types living in their neighborhood, they're afraid of the middle types, and the continuing news stories don't help all that much...

I'm not saying there's not paranoia that's overblown, but I understand the foundation that some of it comes from.

[Machu505]

I thought we might be able to go at least to the second page before someone defended it. I guess I was wrong.

[GeeBee]

I thought we might be able to go at least to the second page before someone defended it. I guess I was wrong.

Can't we just outlaw all religions instead?

[Machu505]

Can't we just outlaw all religions instead?
I vote we bad poor people because of their higher birth rates.

[saysmydoctor]

There's a difference between Islamophobia because 9/11 was carried out by a few people who called themselves Muslims, and Islamophobia because millions of Muslims are immigrating into your countries, dwarfing out your population with their much higher birth rate, refusing to assimilate and living by their own cruel laws. Regardless of whether or not all of that is really reason for concern, those are the reasons behind the fears of a lot of Europeans, and increasingly, Americans. Read about the honor killings (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-11-29-honor-killings-in-the-US_N.htm?poe=HFMostPopular) and other horrible actions that are becoming more common, even though there's always another Muslim to say that that's not really how our religion works...

I don't know the demographic breakdown of people who call themselves Muslims as far as who claims they're completely peaceful, who claims it's ok to murder your daughter if she rebels too much, and who claims they need to kill all the infidels, but a lot of people are worried that even if there's not too many of the latter types living in their neighborhood, they're afraid of the middle types, and the continuing news stories don't help all that much...

I'm not saying there's not paranoia that's overblown, but I understand the foundation that some of it comes from.
No. You're just wrong.

[GeeBee]

No. You're just wrong.

Again...just discourage all irrational, baseless ideologies. That rids us of the whole problem.
Ahhh, utopia.

[thepianominstre]

No. You're just wrong.

Good reasons, thanks.

I'm not defending the ban itself, which is silly. But I do understand the conditions behind the fears that the right-wing party was able to play on, and to just declare it as generic Islamophobia to miss the point. When the number and percentage of Muslims are increasing in your country, and when many of them seem to continue to be living by all the cultural laws of their old country, and when these cultural laws include things like murdering rebellious daughters, and when reports of murdered rebellious daughters in your country also increase, this leads to the fear that all of the cultural-law-following Muslims in your country are capable of such things, and this gets people scared to the point that they start thinking irrational things like banning minarets might stop them.

Unless, you know, it's Islamophobic to not be OK with the uncivilized parts of Sharia law being practiced in your country...

[open mind]

Good reasons, thanks.

I'm not defending the ban itself, which is silly. But I do understand the conditions behind the fears that the right-wing party was able to play on, and to just declare it as generic Islamophobia to miss the point. When the number and percentage of Muslims are increasing in your country, and when many of them seem to continue to be living by all the cultural laws of their old country, and when these cultural laws include things like murdering rebellious daughters, and when reports of murdered rebellious daughters in your country also increase, this leads to the fear that all of the cultural-law-following Muslims in your country are capable of such things, and this gets people scared to the point that they start thinking irrational things like banning minarets might stop them.

Unless, you know, it's Islamophobic to not be OK with the uncivilized parts of Sharia law being practiced in your country...

it's almost always an unreasonable fear to project the actions of the minority onto the majority....and a phobia is defined as an unreasonable fear.....so yeah it's islamophobia.

[saysmydoctor]

Good reasons, thanks.

I'm not defending the ban itself, which is silly. But I do understand the conditions behind the fears that the right-wing party was able to play on, and to just declare it as generic Islamophobia to miss the point. When the number and percentage of Muslims are increasing in your country, and when many of them seem to continue to be living by all the cultural laws of their old country, and when these cultural laws include things like murdering rebellious daughters, and when reports of murdered rebellious daughters in your country also increase, this leads to the fear that all of the cultural-law-following Muslims in your country are capable of such things, and this gets people scared to the point that they start thinking irrational things like banning minarets might stop them.

Unless, you know, it's Islamophobic to not be OK with the uncivilized parts of Sharia law being practiced in your country...
It's islamophobic to generalize in the way the law does and in the way you are defending the ban by trying to justify their position.

[caveBEAR]

Good reasons, thanks.

I'm not defending the ban itself, which is silly. But I do understand the conditions behind the fears that the right-wing party was able to play on, and to just declare it as generic Islamophobia to miss the point. When the number and percentage of Muslims are increasing in your country, and when many of them seem to continue to be living by all the cultural laws of their old country, and when these cultural laws include things like murdering rebellious daughters, and when reports of murdered rebellious daughters in your country also increase, this leads to the fear that all of the cultural-law-following Muslims in your country are capable of such things, and this gets people scared to the point that they start thinking irrational things like banning minarets might stop them.

Unless, you know, it's Islamophobic to not be OK with the uncivilized parts of Sharia law being practiced in your country...

You're a fucking tool. These 'cruel laws' you talk about are bullshit. I'm sure that someone out there has done some stupid shit in the name of their religion before (see; 9/11, Abraham narrowly misses sacrificing son, etc.) but a father who murders a rebellious daughter is still governed by the rules and law of his country, not his religion, so he would be tried and punished the same way a father who murders a boy his daughter was going down on is going to jail too.

Banning the minarets is essentially trying to ban Islam. They are (for the most part) a religious community, pray many times, and use the minarets as part of their prayer. It would be like the U.S. Government going into all the churches, taking the Jesus statues, crosses, and, fuck it, maybe the pulpit, but saying 'You guys can still stay if you want...' It's like playing BrokeNCYDE at a Hot Water Music concert; sure you're not kicking anyone out, but you're pretty hopeful they're going to leave.

It's racist, ass-backwards and bullshit, but hey, at least you can see the logic behind it.

[jessicalynn-xx]

You're a fucking tool. These 'cruel laws' you talk about are bullshit. I'm sure that someone out there has done some stupid shit in the name of their religion before (see; 9/11, Abraham narrowly misses sacrificing son, etc.) but a father who murders a rebellious daughter is still governed by the rules and law of his country, not his religion, so he would be tried and punished the same way a father who murders a boy his daughter was going down on is going to jail too.

...

It's racist, ass-backwards and bullshit, but hey, at least you can see the logic behind it.

I don't agree with banning the minarets but you are just wrong. Sharia Law (special laws for Muslims to abide by which include among them stoning women to death) is being passed in many European countries. That's not a "bullshit cruel law," that's an real, existing cruel law. As well as anti-blasphemy laws that focus specifically on Islam, making it ILLEGAL to deny Allah, draw pictures of Muhammed, etc. Can you not see how someone living in a country where Muslims are being given special laws and rights the rest of us don't have might be concerned? It's not that they're racist, it's that they are concerned that religious people are being given different laws than the rest of us.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/13092

I want to make it clear that I'm not supporting the banning of the minarets specifically, just pointing out that you were wrong to say that religious people will of course be held to the same laws as non-religious people. They won't. And in many European countries, they aren't.

[thepianominstre]

it's almost always an unreasonable fear to project the actions of the minority onto the majority....and a phobia is defined as an unreasonable fear.....so yeah it's islamophobia.

These 'cruel laws' you talk about are bullshit. I'm sure that someone out there has done some stupid shit in the name of their religion before (see; 9/11, Abraham narrowly misses sacrificing son, etc.) but a father who murders a rebellious daughter is still governed by the rules and law of his country, not his religion, so he would be tried and punished the same way a father who murders a boy his daughter was going down on is going to jail too.

open mind, I agree that it's unreasonable to project the actions of the minority onto the majority, but it's perfectly legitimate to be concerned about how great of a proportion that minority is. BEERfortheBEAR, the problem is that we're not talking about some random people out there who have done "stupid shit" in the name of their religion (a.k.a. abortion-doctor-slaying "Christians"). We're talking about practices that are explicitly codified in religious laws that are strictly adhered to by many of these people. Did you even look at the "honor killings" link I posted in my first post? These killings have happened by the THOUSANDS in countries like Egypt and Jordan, and are perfectly acceptable there... Now that the Muslim population is increasing in Europe and America, the same honor killings are starting to increase there as well. We're not talking about a few outcast Taliban -- we're talking about practices that widely occur in Muslim countries and are beginning to show up here. That's something to be legitimately afraid of.. of course the father may be punished to the full extent of the law, but that doesn't do much for the daughter, does it? Many Europeans are concerned about what else such cold-blooded killers are capable of...

Now I agree that it doesn't make sense to jump from fearing that minority, however big they may be (tho wouldn't you agree that almost any percentage is dangerous in your country?), to banning minarets for all of them. I'm just defending what I see as a perfectly legitimate fear, which I think the right-wing party exploited into the fears of Shariah law taking over Switzerland if they didn't stop those minarets right now!

Banning the minarets is essentially trying to ban Islam. They are (for the most part) a religious community, pray many times, and use the minarets as part of their prayer. It would be like the U.S. Government going into all the churches, taking the Jesus statues, crosses, and, fuck it, maybe the pulpit, but saying 'You guys can still stay if you want...'

I agree. But Switzerland already bans the prayer call from the existing minarets due to "noise pollution laws," so banning new minarets isn't doing much to further limit the practice of Islam than it already is there... it's more symbolic of the fear that exists. But to look at the irrational part of the fear and dismiss it all with a "most people who call themselves muslims are peaceful" handwaving is a grave mistake.

[eights]

I live in Switzerland, though can not yet vote. I want to say that most Swiss would/should never have voted on this ban but we know the outcome. The majority spoke, so is democracy. The flaw in this decision came from the politicization of the fear of Islamic cultural influence by the Swiss Peoples Party through the use of a large media campaign which the opposition (majority of government and mainstream media included) demonized. Preliminary polls showed a large margin between against (51%) the ban and for (35%) less than a month before the vote. The eventual outcome can only be the result of the denial of many to willfully speak their truthfull pov on the issue at hand. Obviously there was a large difference in yes/no votes between the cities and rural areas (and also culturally different areas meaning the western/french speaking Swiss cantons + Basel city). It just goes to show that one should always vote if you have the option (you tick a few boxes and send off the letter) so that the rallied up crowd (through large scale propaganda campaigns) aren't the voice of a country that is better than passing a law that discriminizes a religious minority as opposed to the rest.

[paper halo]

I don't agree with banning the minarets but you are just wrong. Sharia Law (special laws for Muslims to abide by which include among them stoning women to death) is being passed in many European countries. That's not a "bullshit cruel law," that's an real, existing cruel law. As well as anti-blasphemy laws that focus specifically on Islam, making it ILLEGAL to deny Allah, draw pictures of Muhammed, etc. Can you not see how someone living in a country where Muslims are being given special laws and rights the rest of us don't have might be concerned? It's not that they're racist, it's that they are concerned that religious people are being given different laws than the rest of us.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/13092

I want to make it clear that I'm not supporting the banning of the minarets specifically, just pointing out that you were wrong to say that religious people will of course be held to the same laws as non-religious people. They won't. And in many European countries, they aren't.

In regards to the bolded: you're a fucking idiot. Sharia law is used in some European countries in civil disputes. European countries are not allowing women to be stoned.

The website you linked to is awful as well.

[jessicalynn-xx]

In regards to the bolded: you're a fucking idiot. Sharia law is used in some European countries in civil disputes. European countries are not allowing women to be stoned.

The website you linked to is awful as well.

I'm not an idiot. I was responding to someone else's post where they said that a country would never allow a person to be held accountable to the laws of their religion instead of the laws everyone else. Clearly that is not true. I know that European countries are not allowing women to be stoned, I never said that they were. What I said was that Sharia Law condones the stoning of women. The fact that this set of laws is being used for anyone anywhere is frankly disgusting. I would call you a "fucking idiot" for your demonstrated lack of reading comprehension skill, but that would be rude, totally unnecessary, and undermine my points ;)

[paper halo]

I'm not an idiot. I was responding to someone else's post where they said that a country would never allow a person to be held accountable to the laws of their religion instead of the laws everyone else. Clearly that is not true.

Congratulations on demonstrating that you are, indeed, an idiot.

1. You clearly have no idea of how Sharia law would work in practice in secular/non-Muslim countries.

2. Religious courts have existed within country's legal systems for ages:

"Religious councils already exist in Britain - there are a number of sharia councils and Roman Catholic ecumenical councils that make judgements on religious matters.

The Beth Din, or Jewish courts, have existed for centuries.

David Frei, Registrar at the London Beth Din, stresses that the court operates within, and according to, UK civil law rather than as a replacement."

Source. (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/law_order/factcheck+is+sharia+law+a+recipe+fo r+chaos/1515147)

I know that European countries are not allowing women to be stoned, I never said that they were.

Sharia Law (special laws for Muslims to abide by which include among them stoning women to death) is being passed in many European countries. That's not a "bullshit cruel law," that's an real, existing cruel law.


How is that not what you're saying here? Ok, maybe you meant something different, but in that case, you really failed to articulate your point effectively.

What I said was that Sharia Law condones the stoning of women.

No you didn't. Say that was what you meant all you want, but it's not what you typed.

The fact that this set of laws is being used for anyone anywhere is frankly disgusting. I would call you a "fucking idiot" for your demonstrated lack of reading comprehension skill, but that would be rude, totally unnecessary, and undermine my points ;)

Your points are retarded as it is, and backed up by absolutely nothing except a clearly anti-Islam website. Insulting me couldn't possibly undermine them further.

While I'm here, I would also like to see some support for this statement of yours:

just pointing out that you were wrong to say that religious people will of course be held to the same laws as non-religious people. They won't. And in many European countries, they aren't.

I would like a list of European countries in which this is true.