Discrimination Against Tattoos, Opinions.

[gabrielM]

hey everyone, i recently had a big problem with the tattoos on my skin. i love my tattoos with everything in me and i dont regret them. i have tats down my arms, my chest, my hands and my fingers. none of them are gang/drug related or sexual. theyre all symbols of indivitualism and artwork i personally love and tell or hold stories within them.

anyhow, the problem is this; over a year and a half ago i had applied for work with TSA (transportation security association), for those who arent sure what that is, it's the security at the airport. it's a great job to build a career from, with great pay, great benefits and great opportunities to continue to work for the federal government. i know other people who work there as well. now, since it's security at the airport and the government is involved, it has a very extensive hiring process which i've been in for a year and a half. i passed background checks, credit checks, medical exams including eye and ear tests, general knowledge tests, xray tests, color exams and even had to collect information for the past 10 years of my job and living history. the process was really long but i was feeling good and confident i would get the job soon because i was passing all of those exams and tests. i even had a face to face interview with a superior in TSA. during the interview he saw my tattoos on my hands and said that those may be a problem in the future with TSA but not to become an entry level officer because i would be required to wear gloves at the checkpoints anyhow. i said ok, that's not a problem, i'll cross that bridge when i get there. i just wanted to get my foot in the door. he even went as far as telling me how nice my tattoos were and how some of the employees for TSA have some and i told him about the employees i knew who also had some tattoos. so i passed that interview as well.

the problem came when i got a call last week from TSA Miami and i thought i was going to be set up for my final training and finally be hired. instead they told me they had new policies and had to ask me a few questions. 1st they asked if i had worked for TSA before and i said no. the next question was "do u have any tattoos that the TSA uniform cannot cover?" i said yes, but i was told they wouldn't be a problem to be an entry level officer for TSA and i would have to wear gloves at the checkpoints to deal with the public anyhow. the woman said that gloves are not considered part of the uniform even though i would have to wear them. she then told me i wouldnt be hired or considered for hiring because of the tattoos on my hands.

what bothered me the most is that i was told that the real reason i wont be hired is because of my tattoos. even more so, TSA prides itself on being "an equal opportunity employer" when in all reality my opportunity was taken from me because of tattoos on my hand. tattoos neither make me more or less qualified to do a job but they basically told me i was unqualified to do the job because of the tattoos on my hands.

i currently work for my county and represent them very well as a process server and my tattoos are not a problem. i'm shocked and disgusted that in a country as diverse and equal as ours, i was denied a job because of my tattoos. i was trying to get a good job and better myself and my situation and i was denied that because of my love for artwork.

the worst part is that i called a free legal hotline in my area and they told me that what was done to me is not ilegal because a tattoo is an external marking. it's something i added to my body. i still feel cheated and i still feel bad about what has happened to me. there's acts in place to defend religion, race, sexual orientation and gender in the work field but tattoos and those who have them don't get the same respect. it's a shame.

anyone have any ideas, opinions or just similar stories they wanna share?

[bard]

usually, i would just post "tl;dr", but i did read the whole story.

this situation sucks, especially since they "changed" the rules from the last time you talked to someone about the tattoos, but rules are rules. doubt there is anything that you can do.

my company just recently said that we can have visible tattoos as long as they aren't crude/offensive in anyway.

you have to also consider that with any job in the airport is going to be closely watched due to 9/11, and for whatever reason they think that tattoos is a problem.

sucks.

[TROKyle]

the next question was "do u have any tattoos that the TSA uniform cannot cover?" i said yes, but i was told they wouldn't be a problem to be an entry level officer for TSA and i would have to wear gloves at the checkpoints to deal with the public anyhow. the woman said that gloves are not considered part of the uniform even though i would have to wear them. she then told me i wouldnt be hired or considered for hiring because of the tattoos on my hands.

That right there does not make any sense, I would love to hear the logic behind that one from the lady.



the worst part is that i called a free legal hotline in my area and they told me that what was done to me is not ilegal because a tattoo is an external marking. it's something i added to my body. i still feel cheated and i still feel bad about what has happened to me. there's acts in place to defend religion, race, sexual orientation and gender in the work field but tattoos and those who have them don't get the same respect. it's a shame.

Religion is also something you add to your body, so by that logic why are there acts in place to protect that? You choose to be religious or not, just like one chooses to get tattoos.

Really the only thing I have is that tattoos may give off a sort of unprofessional aura about someone. And they're a distinguishing characteristic, jobs like the secret service can not have tattoos because of this reason. But I don't think that is a legitimate argument from TSA either.

I agree, its bullshit that you are denied a job just because of your tattoos. But I can't see anything that you can do about this.

[saysmydoctor]

I would take TSA officials more seriously if they had tattoos.

[Chrisj182]

That's shit man, shows you that even though it's illegal to discriminate on creed, sexuality, gender, age or how religion, people still discriminate on the grounds of tattoos and piercings, because there's no law against it.

[Maiaophilia]

This is what I'm most afraid of.
I have three tattoos, but because I plan on being a teacher I have to carefully plan where I put them to ensure that a respectable school will eventually hire me after college, otherwise yeah; I'd have a sleeve. My tattoos aren't crude, violent, gang related or sexual but regardless when I wear skirts or dresses that show my tattoos (two of the three are on my legs) I feel like people do discriminate against me, to the point where when I go to job interviews I make sure I wear pants so the tattoos are covered. I do not regret my tattoos at all. I love them more than anything. I just wish it wasn't a big deal in the work place.

[sleepyseanzzz]

i have a friend who went to technical school and is working as an electrician with stuff on his forearms and calves. i have other friends in college that aren't sure what they are going to be doing yet with hidden tattoos (back, shoulder, thigh) i guess if you know what you are going to be doing in life you have to plan accordingly where you get a tattoo and for how a boss in that field might react to seeing visible tattoos.

[Derka Derka]

Discrimination against tattoos and piercings is ridiculous. It's discrimination based on what a person looks like which is just plain ignorant. Can the person preform the duties that their job requires them to do? If so then hire them.

[Anything1216]

Jack Bauer has tattoos...

[wendjiqn]

This is what I'm most afraid of.
I have three tattoos, but because I plan on being a teacher I have to carefully plan where I put them to ensure that a respectable school will eventually hire me after college, otherwise yeah; I'd have a sleeve. My tattoos aren't crude, violent, gang related or sexual but regardless when I wear skirts or dresses that show my tattoos (two of the three are on my legs) I feel like people do discriminate against me, to the point where when I go to job interviews I make sure I wear pants so the tattoos are covered. I do not regret my tattoos at all. I love them more than anything. I just wish it wasn't a big deal in the work place.
A few of my current/previous teachers have tattoos in visible places. I wouldn't worry about that too much, as long as they aren't huge.

[yves.]

it's a business. in business, you are required to have a professional look, and people should understand that. i have two facial piercings, and i have to take them out when i go to work because i am representing the company and the company wants to be taken seriously. if i were still in high school and was in the DECA program (marketing students), i would have to do the same thing. they technically are not discriminating against you - you chose to get the tattoos that are in visible areas. if they had said something like 'oh, we can't hire you because you are too tall' then you may have an argument, but because tattoos and piercings are currently not acceptable in the business/professional arena, you just have to deal with it.
this guy that started teaching at my high school had full sleeves, he had to wear a long-sleeved shirt every day because he couldn't show his tattoos.

tl;dr it's a business, get over it.

[Derka Derka]

it's a business. in business, you are required to have a professional look, and people should understand that. i have two facial piercings, and i have to take them out when i go to work because i am representing the company and the company wants to be taken seriously. if i were still in high school and was in the DECA program (marketing students), i would have to do the same thing. they technically are not discriminating against you - you chose to get the tattoos that are in visible areas. if they had said something like 'oh, we can't hire you because you are too tall' then you may have an argument, but because tattoos and piercings are currently not acceptable in the business/professional arena, you just have to deal with it.
this guy that started teaching at my high school had full sleeves, he had to wear a long-sleeved shirt every day because he couldn't show his tattoos.

tl;dr it's a business, get over it.

It's still discrimination against someone because of how they look.

[reckoner]

It'll take some time, but I bet we come around with tattoos. It generally seems like we learn to accept what we originally discrimated against.

[yves.]

It's still discrimination against someone because of how they look.
no. they chose to look like that. the exact same thing could be said about models; a clothing line may choose not to hire a model because he/she has visible tattoos and that is not the look they are going for.

[kwsqd]

It's still discrimination against someone because of how they look.
Looking clean, neat, and professional is a requirement for many jobs. This isn't bigotry. The only real complaint here is that he was shafted by their policy.

[drawndead]

i don't think that men are as frowned upon as women in the workplace with tattoos. one of my male teachers had a tattoo on his hand and no one cared but when we found out that mrs. "so and so" had a tiny tattoo we searched for it everyday

[x togepi x]

"looking professional"=biopower. read some foucault kids. you gotta assimilate.

i don't think that men are as frowned upon as women in the workplace with tattoos. one of my male teachers had a tattoo on his hand and no one cared but when we found out that mrs. "so and so" had a tiny tattoo we searched for it everyday

also true.

[Derka Derka]

no. they chose to look like that. the exact same thing could be said about models; a clothing line may choose not to hire a model because he/she has visible tattoos and that is not the look they are going for.

In the case of the model I'd call bullshit because they can cover up tattoos with make up or photoshop. I know that many places don't want to hire a tattooed individual, my main question is why not? If a tattoo is not gang or drug related, sexual or offensive then what's the problem with it? Oh yeah it's called stereotyping, which is still discrimination on a very ignorant level. Just because someone has a piercing or a tattoo then they're immediately viewed as a rebel or a seedy member of society. It's not just businesses that do this, many members of today's society discriminate against people with tattoos and piercings too. It's time that they realize that it is a form of art and there is nothing unprofessional about it.

[kwsqd]

"looking professional"=biopower. read some foucault kids. you gotta assimilate.



also true.
or you can purchase your counter-culture. Tough choice.

[x togepi x]

or you can purchase your counter-culture. Tough choice.

this is also very true and somewhat linking back to the first thing i said. damn it.

[yves.]

In the case of the model I'd call bullshit because they can cover up tattoos with make up or photoshop. I know that many places don't want to hire a tattooed individual, my main question is why not? If a tattoo is not gang or drug related, sexual or offensive then what's the problem with it? Oh yeah it's called stereotyping, which is still discrimination on a very ignorant level. Just because someone has a piercing or a tattoo then they're immediately viewed as a rebel or a seedy member of society. It's not just businesses that do this, many members of today's society discriminate against people with tattoos and piercings too. It's time that they realize that it is a form of art and there is nothing unprofessional about it.

yeah, because you can photoshop tattoos out of a runway show.

the problem is that the company wants to be represented professionally. tattoos simply are not professional. i don't think that nowadays they would be viewed as rebellious, especially because so many people have them. it's just that the company image does not allow for tattoos. now, there are certain companies that will let you have tattoos, like certain record labels or more... 'street' oriented companies like vans and such, but a majority of those are not what you could call business professionals (not trying to piss on anyone here, just saying that your dress code may not require a professional look). a business professional dress code is what most jobs require.
and if you're going to use the cover tattoos up with makeup argument, couldn't anyone with visible tattoos just do that and pretend they don't have them? also, if someone comes into work every day with face paint are you going to defend it the same way, saying it's art so it's okay for them to have it?

[kwsqd]

this is also very true and somewhat linking back to the first thing i said. damn it.
haha I really need to change my major to philosophy.

[ambulance]

it's a business. in business, you are required to have a professional look, and people should understand that. i have two facial piercings, and i have to take them out when i go to work because i am representing the company and the company wants to be taken seriously. if i were still in high school and was in the DECA program (marketing students), i would have to do the same thing. they technically are not discriminating against you - you chose to get the tattoos that are in visible areas. if they had said something like 'oh, we can't hire you because you are too tall' then you may have an argument, but because tattoos and piercings are currently not acceptable in the business/professional arena, you just have to deal with it.
this guy that started teaching at my high school had full sleeves, he had to wear a long-sleeved shirt every day because he couldn't show his tattoos.

tl;dr it's a business, get over it.

The image we have for "looking professional" is the problem. While some tattoo's can be vulgar/ugly, most of them are art, you know, that shit you pay 20 dollars to go stare at for a couple hours in museums. Why people can't 'look professional' while having a few tattoos showing is ludicrous. You can have all the 'looks' of being professional: suit, nice shoes, clean shaven and nice haircut, but slap a few tattoos on and all of a sudden you 'look' unprofessional. Yeah, okay. Companies should worry less about looks and more about how their employees act and how well they do the job. We need to break this deceptive connection between 'looking professional' and being...I don't know, whatever the fuck, that is suppose to mean.

"looking professional"=biopower. read some foucault kids. you gotta assimilate.

Foucault.... -_____-

[Derka Derka]

yeah, because you can photoshop tattoos out of a runway show.

the problem is that the company wants to be represented professionally. tattoos simply are not professional. i don't think that nowadays they would be viewed as rebellious, especially because so many people have them. it's just that the company image does not allow for tattoos. now, there are certain companies that will let you have tattoos, like certain record labels or more... 'street' oriented companies like vans and such, but a majority of those are not what you could call business professionals (not trying to piss on anyone here, just saying that your dress code may not require a professional look). a business professional dress code is what most jobs require.
and if you're going to use the cover tattoos up with makeup argument, couldn't anyone with visible tattoos just do that and pretend they don't have them? also, if someone comes into work every day with face paint are you going to defend it the same way, saying it's art so it's okay for them to have it?

Tattoos are covered up with make up everyday on movie sets and on the runway and yes someone with tattoos could do that if they wanted to, I never said they couldn't. I'm also aware that it depends on your career path, I don't ever have to worry about how many tattoos I have because of mine. I still think it's bullshit that businesses discrimate against them. Like you said many people today have them, why can't businesses just accept that and adapt their policies to our changing society.

[SlappedActor]

Tattoos are a choice, unlike race, gender, etc. If you decide you want them, be prepared to accept the fact that some businesses won't hire you. You have the right to make a choice to get a tattoo, and a company has the right to deny you a position if they don't like the choices you have made. If getting a certain job is more important to you, don't get the tattoo (or get it somewhere where it is easily hid).

I don't see any room for complaint here.

[x togepi x]

Tattoos are a choice, unlike race, gender, etc. If you decide you want them, be prepared to accept the fact that some businesses won't hire you. You have the right to make a choice to get a tattoo, and a company has the right to deny you a position if they don't like the choices you have made. If getting a certain job is more important to you, don't get the tattoo (or get it somewhere where it is easily hid).

I don't see any room for complaint here.

i don't know, maybe the idea that your body is your personal property's and not your workplace's.

[ambulance]

Tattoos are a choice, unlike race, gender, etc. If you decide you want them, be prepared to accept the fact that some businesses won't hire you. You have the right to make a choice to get a tattoo, and a company has the right to deny you a position if they don't like the choices you have made. If getting a certain job is more important to you, don't get the tattoo (or get it somewhere where it is easily hid).

I don't see any room for complaint here.

You are missing the point. There is no reason that these businesses shouldn't hire these people. It doesn't effect their work performance in any way. Isn't that the point of a job...to work?

[SlappedActor]

i don't know, maybe the idea that your body is your personal property's and not your workplace's.

I never said your body is the property of the workplace. A company can't force you to do anything with your body, whether that is getting a tattoo or getting one removed. But they should still have the right to accept or reject your application for employment based on the choices that you have made, and tattoos are 100% choice.

[SlappedActor]

You are missing the point. There is no reason that these businesses shouldn't hire these people. It doesn't effect their work performance in any way. Isn't that the point of a job...to work?

Yes, and a professional image is something that can be directly related to how well that job is performed and how successful a given company is, whether you think it is fair or not.

[x togepi x]

I never said your body is the property of the workplace. A company can't force you to do anything with your body, whether that is getting a tattoo or getting one removed. But they should still have the right to accept or reject your application for employment based on the choices that you have made, and tattoos are 100% choice.

Why should they be able to reject your employment application for something so shallow especially if it can be covered up?

who cares if it's a choice? I don't understand people's obsession with choice v. determinism. so what? a dude/girl wants to have a tattoo. how exactly does that effect their job performance? Obviously there are extreme cases like hardcore facial tattoos or white power shit, but it's 2009. People really don't care all that much anymore.

[caveBEAR]

I didn't choose to want tattoos.

[jeremypeele]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. give me a second. i'm thinking.

[Kozzy333]

I'm sure it kind of sucks but in a way I can understand why businesses wouldn't hire someone with visible tattoos that can not be covered up. I don't agree with it though.

[SlappedActor]

Why should they be able to reject your employment application for something so shallow especially if it can be covered up?

who cares if it's a choice? I don't understand people's obsession with choice v. determinism. so what? a dude/girl wants to have a tattoo. how exactly does that effect their job performance? Obviously there are extreme cases like hardcore facial tattoos or white power shit, but it's 2009. People really don't care all that much anymore.

See my post above yours:

Yes, and a professional image is something that can be directly related to how well that job is performed and how successful a given company is, whether you think it is fair or not.

[SlappedActor]

I didn't choose to want tattoos.

Then have some self-control and learn to prioritize, or do whatever you want and learn to accept that certain consequences will follow. I could care less what you do, but it's not like it's that difficult to figure out.

[Derka Derka]

I understand that a business can choose not to hire you based on if you have them or not. I just don't understand why they are considered unprofessional.

[x togepi x]

See my post above yours:

See the post you quoted. It's 2009. It doesn't matter all that much.

besides, professional image=tool for social control. why should we let the economy dictate how we look?

[SlappedActor]

See the post you quoted. It's 2009. It doesn't matter all that much.

besides, professional image=tool for social control. why should we let the economy dictate how we look?

Because businesses care more about making money and being successful than your desire to express yourself through your personal choices. Pretty logical.

Also I should mention, although it should be obvious, that I'm only referring to tattoos that aren't easily hid. If it's something that can easily be 100% covered up during work, even fairly strict companies rarely have a problem with it in my experience.

[bard]

i've been reading this and thinking about this subject.

slappedactor is right. if you choose to get a tattoo, you have to expect any or all critiques of it in the future.

i mean, I don't care if someone has tattoos, but there are a lot of people that would get "freaked" out if they go into open a bank account and there is a dude with a big tattoo on his/her neck/arm/hand/etc....

i think that's stupid, but it's also something you just have to expect.

[Derka Derka]

See the post you quoted. It's 2009. It doesn't matter all that much.

besides, professional image=tool for social control. why should we let the economy dictate how we look?

Exactly, people always bitch about the government meddling in our personal lives. Why should a business get to decide what you look like? Take it to the extreme and soon we'll all look the same and be the same.

[perceptrons]

It's funny reading people get so angry about this.

A business wants X.
A business may be of the opinion that tattoos on their workers weaken their ability to obtain X.
Therefore, a business may decide not to hire an employee due to the fact that they have tattoos.

Too bad for you if you have a visible tattoo, go find another employer.

[x togepi x]

Because businesses care more about making money and being successful than your desire to express yourself through your personal choices. Pretty logical.

It is logical if you want to mindlessly side with business, but we could also use your logic to justify all sorts of shitty things.

I'm saying personal autonomy trumps business interests.

[ambulance]

Yes, and a professional image is something that can be directly related to how well that job is performed and how successful a given company is, whether you think it is fair or not.

Oh do you have facts to back that up? I would love to see how you can make a statement like that, especially when people are forced into dressing in this professional way and are discriminated on the way they look, regardless of their abilities to perform the job. I'm sure if people had the choice they wouldn't choose to wear a suit and tie every day just to 'look professional' why they are trying to do there job. Get real kid.

[perceptrons]

It is logical if you want to mindlessly side with business, but we could also use your logic to justify all sorts of shitty things.

I'm saying personal autonomy trumps business interests.
If we are assessing the situation from a 'how to better the world' viewpoint, then yes, personal autonomy is better. But we aren't, we are assessing the situation from a 'business X wants to maximize outcome Y' viewpoint.

No one is saying, "I love that businesses care about this." No one thinks it's awesome that businesses do this, but they do, and they have their reasons (however good or bad they may be).

[perceptrons]

Oh do you have facts to back that up? I would love to see how you can make a statement like that, especially when people are forced into dressing in this professional way and are discriminated on the way they look, regardless of their abilities to perform the job. I'm sure if people had the choice they wouldn't choose to wear a suit and tie every day just to 'look professional' why they are trying to do there job. Get real kid.
I guarantee that if you line up two people to sell something to "Generic American X," the person who looks professional will outsell tattooed guy (all other things equal). Whether or not that's how it should be is irrelevant.

[ambulance]

I guarantee that if you line up two people to sell something to "Generic American X," the person who looks professional will outsell tattooed guy (all other things equal). Whether or not that's how it should be is irrelevant.

No that is not irrelevant. It is discrimination pure and simple. Are you retarded?

[bard]

Oh do you have facts to back that up? I would love to see how you can make a statement like that, especially when people are forced into dressing in this professional way and are discriminated on the way they look, regardless of their abilities to perform the job. I'm sure if people had the choice they wouldn't choose to wear a suit and tie every day just to 'look professional' why they are trying to do there job. Get real kid.
there are plenty of jobs that require professional dress or "good looks", and if you don't have them, you don't get hired/do work. and the better you look, the more you're paid, etc... modeling, acting, etc...

i'm not saying it's right, it's just the truth.

[bard]

No that is not irrelevant. It is discrimination pure and simple. Are you retarded?
it's not discrimination because that person CHOSE to get a visible tattoo.

discrimination is not hiring someone because of race or something. something they didn't get to choose.

[perceptrons]

No that is not irrelevant. It is discrimination pure and simple. Are you retarded?
The business can't help the way that society perceives people. You think the business should hire someone that will make less money for them?

No need to get all huffy.

[kwsqd]

it's not discrimination because that person CHOSE to get a visible tattoo.

discrimination is not hiring someone because of race or something. something they didn't get to choose.
that would be "racism or something." Discrimination doesn't have a defined prejudice.

[SlappedActor]

Oh do you have facts to back that up? I would love to see how you can make a statement like that, especially when people are forced into dressing in this professional way and are discriminated on the way they look, regardless of their abilities to perform the job. I'm sure if people had the choice they wouldn't choose to wear a suit and tie every day just to 'look professional' why they are trying to do there job. Get real kid.

How naive are you?

Do you really not think there is a reason you can see hundreds of auto mechanics with sleeve and neck tattoos, but virtually no lawyers? Because auto mechanics generally have little interaction with the public. They are hired based on their ability to do the best work possible, and tattoos don't really factor into that. Lawyers are also hired on their ability to do their best work possible, and that includes interacting with the public and presenting an image that has been empirically proven to be the most successful and bring in the most clients and money. Do you really think businesses don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars researching this type of thing? This is Business Psychology 101. Get real, kid.

[:-)]

I would take TSA officials more seriously if they had tattoos. This.

[ambulance]

there are plenty of jobs that require professional dress or "good looks", and if you don't have them, you don't get hired/do work. and the better you look, the more you're paid, etc... modeling, acting, etc...

i'm not saying it's right, it's just the truth.

I understand that as those are based on the appearance of an individual, and they are looking for certain characteristics that best suit their needs. That is not the case with most jobs, especially the job in question at the beginning of this thread.

it's not discrimination because that person CHOSE to get a visible tattoo.

discrimination is not hiring someone because of race or something. something they didn't get to choose.

2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

Discrimination is judging someone on things other than their merit. As brought up earlier, religion is part of discrimination, is it not. People CHOOSE their religion.

[SlappedActor]

It is logical if you want to mindlessly side with business, but we could also use your logic to justify all sorts of shitty things.

I'm saying personal autonomy trumps business interests.

That's fine, good for you. Be prepared to find employment elsewhere. YOU are the one asking for employment (in this hypothetical situation). You need them, not the other way around.

I'm not "mindlessly" siding with business. You have every right to make choices about your body, and businesses have every right to make choices that will allow them to be as successful and profitable as possible (with the exception of unfair discrimination, and I don't believe visible tattoos fall under that category).

[ambulance]

How naive are you?

Do you really think there is a reason you can see hundreds of auto mechanics with sleeve and neck tattoos, but virtually no lawyers? Because auto mechanics generally have little interaction with the public. They are hired based on their ability to do the best work possible, and tattoos don't really factor into that. Lawyers are also hired on their ability to do their best work possible, and that includes interacting with the public and presenting an image that has been empirically proven to be the most successful and bring in the most clients and money. Do you really think businesses don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars researching this type of thing? This is Business Psychology 101. Get real, kid.

Look, I'm not arguing whether that is the case or not, I'm arguing that its discrimination pure and simple. You are so entrenched in this idea of market fundamentalism that you don't realize that as a people, we would be better off working to move past this idea of what 'professionalism' is and base jobs on merit. You are limiting peoples freedom by buying into this idea that people must 'look professional' in order to get certain jobs. Why? Why should people cater to BUSINESS? Peoples appearances do not get in the way of getting their job done, why should businesses be allowed to control how we present ourselves?

Nice job trying to mock me at the end btw.

[bard]

I understand that as those are based on the appearance of an individual, and they are looking for certain characteristics that best suit their needs. That is not the case with most jobs, especially the job in question at the beginning of this thread.



2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

Discrimination is judging someone on things other than their merit. As brought up earlier, religion is part of discrimination, is it not. People CHOOSE their religion.
i understand what you're saying, and AGREE that tattoos shouldn't be used as something to not hire someone over, BUT that is not how the world works. the business world sucks in a lot of different ways, this is just one of them.

[ambulance]

i understand what you're saying, and AGREE that tattoos shouldn't be used as something to not hire someone over, BUT that is not how the world works. the business world sucks in a lot of different ways, this is just one of them.

I understand that. What I don't understand is why we should allow business...people in it only to make profit, should control our lives? It's not right and we shouldn't just let it be 'the way the world works.' Should I say that about same-sex marriage? I mean, it's just the way the world works.

[perceptrons]

I understand that as those are based on the appearance of an individual, and they are looking for certain characteristics that best suit their needs. That is not the case with most jobs, especially the job in question at the beginning of this thread.

2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

Discrimination is judging someone on things other than their merit. As brought up earlier, religion is part of discrimination, is it not. People CHOOSE their religion.
The TSA does all kinds of stupid shit, so no real point look for logic from them.

As far as religion, everyone knows that religions gets benefits that they shouldn't. American's are too obsessed with their religions for that to change much anytime soon, though.

[kwsqd]

Look, I'm not arguing whether that is the case or not, I'm arguing that its discrimination pure and simple. You are so entrenched in this idea of market fundamentalism that you don't realize that as a people, we would be better off working to move past this idea of what 'professionalism' is and base jobs on merit. You are limiting peoples freedom by buying into this idea that people must 'look professional' in order to get certain jobs. Why? Why should people cater to BUSINESS? Peoples appearances do not get in the way of getting their job done, why should businesses be allowed to control how we present ourselves?

Nice job trying to mock me at the end btw.
/thread

[bard]

I understand that. What I don't understand is why we should allow business...people in it only to make profit, should control our lives? It's not right and we shouldn't just let it be 'the way the world works.' Should I say that about same-sex marriage? I mean, it's just the way the world works.
the thing is, they aren't "controlling our lives".

if i went and got a tattoo on my face at 18, i am responsible for any consequences in doing so. one of which is possibly not getting a good job.

and i know that you understand that, BUT it's not necessarily the business themself that doesn't want tattoo covered people. it's the realization that there are TONS of ignorant people who don't want to do business with "different looking people"

that is what SlappedActor is trying to get through to. if the research didn't show that hiring someone with facial tattoos wouldn't be good for business, then they wouldn't have as big of a problem with it, especially when tattoos don't interfere with their job duties.

[kwsqd]

the thing is, they aren't "controlling our lives".

if i went and got a tattoo on my face at 18, i am responsible for any consequences in doing so. one of which is possibly not getting a good job.

and i know that you understand that, BUT it's not necessarily the business themself that doesn't want tattoo covered people. it's the realization that there are TONS of ignorant people who don't want to do business with "different looking people"

that is what SlappedActor is trying to get through to. if the research didn't show that hiring someone with facial tattoos wouldn't be good for business, then they wouldn't have as big of a problem with it, especially when tattoos don't interfere with their job duties.
With this way of thinking, that won't change.

[bard]

With this way of thinking, that won't change.
absolutely.

same thing as gay marriage. and racism for that matter. there are still a ton of homophobes/racists where i live.

[SlappedActor]

Look, I'm not arguing whether that is the case or not, I'm arguing that its discrimination pure and simple. You are so entrenched in this idea of market fundamentalism that you don't realize that as a people, we would be better off working to move past this idea of what 'professionalism' is and base jobs on merit.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. There are many, many jobs in which your appearance can be directly tied to your ability to do the job, aka MERIT. You've even agreed with this, I don't know why you keep driving this argument into the ground. Businesses want to make money. If it can be proven that you having visible tattoos can prevent them from making as much money as possible, they have every right to find somebody else who can do the job.

You are limiting peoples freedom by buying into this idea that people must 'look professional' in order to get certain jobs. Why?

Nobody is limiting your freedom. Your body is your own, get as many tattoos as you want. Lots of people do it and do just fine in their lives. Unless you get some hardcore facial tattoos, you'll probably still be able to find a job somewhere, but it might not be the one you want. You just don't want to deal with any possible consequences of your choices.

Why should people cater to BUSINESS? Peoples appearances do not get in the way of getting their job done, why should businesses be allowed to control how we present ourselves?

Aren't you the one asking for employment? God forbid you actually have to meet some requirements to work for a company. Why should businesses have to to cater to you based on YOUR CHOICES? If you don't want to adapt to them, they'll find somebody else who can probably do the job just as good or better.

Nice job trying to mock me at the end btw.

Well, you make it so easy.

[perceptrons]

With this way of thinking, that won't change.
It's the truth, why are you guys taking it out on the businesses? It's not their fault that people are like that. Businesses have to cater to their customers if they want to get their business. If they don't, they wont succeed.

If you guys would like to see a change, working on changing people's perceptions. If people's perceptions change, then business will be free to hire a wider variety of people.

[bard]

It's the truth, why are you guys taking it out on the businesses? It's not their fault that people are like that. Businesses have to cater to their customers if they want to get their business. If they don't, they wont succeed.

If you guys would like to see a change, working on changing people's perceptions. If people's perceptions change, then business will be free to hire a wider variety of people.
every time i read 'perceptions' in this post i kept fumbling over it thinking 'perceptrons' in my head.

[kwsqd]

It's the truth, why are you guys taking it out on the businesses? It's not their fault that people are like that. Businesses have to cater to their customers if they want to get their business. If they don't, they wont succeed.

If you guys would like to see a change, working on changing people's perceptions. If people's perceptions change, then business will be free to hire a wider variety of people.
You have it backwards, somewhat.. People are socially constructed by the dominant class of society. Yes, it is true that BOTH sides would need to change simultaneously. However, if businesses were to say "fuck you, I don't care what my employees look like as long as they do the best job possible" that would change everything. (At least, a lot more effectively than a percentage of people doing it.) Unfortunately, major corporations will never do such a thing. People's perceptions are based on the media which, like it or not, are owned by businesses.

[bard]

You have it backwards, somewhat.. People are socially constructed by the dominant class of society. Yes, it is true that BOTH sides would need to change simultaneously. However, if businesses were to say "fuck you, I don't care what my employees look like as long as they do the best job possible" that would change everything. (At least, a lot more effectively than a percentage of people doing it.) Unfortunately, major corporations will never do such a thing. People's perceptions are based on the media which, like it or not, are owned by businesses.
it would be awesome if all the businesses would do this. oh well...

[MyNameIsRoss]

in 20 years (less really) this won't even be a problem.

[perceptrons]

You have it backwards, somewhat.. People are socially constructed by the dominant class of society. Yes, it is true that BOTH sides would need to change simultaneously. However, if businesses were to say "fuck you, I don't care what my employees look like as long as they do the best job possible" that would change everything. (At least, a lot more effectively than a percentage of people doing it.) Unfortunately, major corporations will never do such a thing. People's perceptions are based on the media which, like it or not, are owned by businesses.
While it would be more effective for corporations to just say "fuck off, these guys are the best," it isn't in their best interest to do so. For a business to do that, they would have to put a lot on the line just to take an ideological stand. It would certainly be admirable for them to do so, but what makes it worth the risk to them? Their customers, however, have nothing to lose by changing their perceptions (for the most part).

[SlappedActor]

While it would be more effective for corporations to just say "fuck off, these guys are the best," it isn't in their best interest to do so. For a business to do that, they would have to put a lot on the line just to take an ideological stand. It would certainly be admirable for them to do so, but what makes it worth the risk to them? Their customers, however, have nothing to lose by changing their perceptions (for the most part).

This.

I have no problem with tattoos personally, I still consider getting one every now and then. But any change in how they are perceived has to come from the ground up.

[saysmydoctor]

Because businesses care more about making money and being successful than your desire to express yourself through your personal choices. Pretty logical.
What an asinine justification.

[gabrielM]

well, i saw sum1 here say its the same with models, u may not be hired because of a tattoo. but that doesnt apply, a model is literally hired for his/her physical looks. at TSA my physical appearance doesn't matter. it is discrimination.

i hate when i hear people say that the company has to be taken seriously or that tattoos let off a bad image. that's ignorant as hell. the reason tattoos let off a "bad image" or aren't taken seriously is because the big companies require those with tattoos to cover them or won't hire them at all. that translates into the public, who are ignorant and discriminative, to think there must be something wrong with tattoos if the people who have them are not chosen to represent the company regardless of w/e they have already completely or accomplished to become an employee of the company. it's ridiculous.

just like how the military is very picky about letting people sign up with tattoos but god forbid there's a draft, every1 is going. tattoos or not. so they won't let us defend the country because we want to but when the country's back is against the wall, they'll force us in. that's bullshit.

another good point is this. if there is a doctor who is magnificent at heart transplants and you needed 1 but he had a huge tattoo on his hand of god-knows-what, would you deem him incapable of performing the surgery? or would you not take him seriously? or on a less serious note, if you were at the beach and you got dragged under by a riptide and a lifeguard with a throat full of tattoos jumped in to save you, would you turn him down? would you deny him giving you cpr because you think his throat tattoos make him look dirty?

i think not. if my tattoos are not offensive in any way and i have a clean record, i dont see why i cannot represent anything or anybody.

[Crowe41]

Businesses should be allowed to discriminate against tattoos in the same way they are allowed to discriminate with a dress code. I really hope that people know before getting a tattoo what they are getting themselves into. I remember reading all these articles on women who get lower back tattoos and then can't get an epiderul when giving birth. You should understand these things before you get a tattoo!

There are plenty of jobs out there that let you work with visible tattoos, however, if being a professional in a business type environment is your goal then are definitely limiting yourself.

[SlappedActor]

What an asinine justification.

:ok:

[EchoPark]

as an avid tattoo collector myself, I feel for you mate.

[bard]

i think not. if my tattoos are not offensive in any way and i have a clean record, i dont see why i cannot represent anything or anybody.
you are correct in thinking this, but that just isn't the way the world works.

sucks.

btw, what and where are your tattoos anyways?

[perceptrons]

well, i saw sum1 here say its the same with models, u may not be hired because of a tattoo. but that doesnt apply, a model is literally hired for his/her physical looks. at TSA my physical appearance doesn't matter. it is discrimination.

i hate when i hear people say that the company has to be taken seriously or that tattoos let off a bad image. that's ignorant as hell. the reason tattoos let off a "bad image" or aren't taken seriously is because the big companies require those with tattoos to cover them or won't hire them at all. that translates into the public, who are ignorant and discriminative, to think there must be something wrong with tattoos if the people who have them are not chosen to represent the company regardless of w/e they have already completely or accomplished to become an employee of the company. it's ridiculous.

just like how the military is very picky about letting people sign up with tattoos but god forbid there's a draft, every1 is going. tattoos or not. so they won't let us defend the country because we want to but when the country's back is against the wall, they'll force us in. that's bullshit.

another good point is this. if there is a doctor who is magnificent at heart transplants and you needed 1 but he had a huge tattoo on his hand of god-knows-what, would you deem him incapable of performing the surgery? or would you not take him seriously? or on a less serious note, if you were at the beach and you got dragged under by a riptide and a lifeguard with a throat full of tattoos jumped in to save you, would you turn him down? would you deny him giving you cpr because you think his throat tattoos make him look dirty?

i think not. if my tattoos are not offensive in any way and i have a clean record, i dont see why i cannot represent anything or anybody.
You seem to be responding as if we think tattoos are bad. We don't, we're just talking about the general public's perceptions of tattoos.

[gabrielM]

i read so many ppl saying tattoos are unprofessional but that's ignorant. im sorry. but it is. it's ignorant to deny someone the opportunity to better themself because of a tattoo. because of a love for art. because of someone wanting to get a mark of a special time in their life or be creative or express something that moves them. it sucks. it's sad.

this country isnt equal and that proves it completely.

[bard]

i read so many ppl saying tattoos are unprofessional but that's ignorant. im sorry. but it is. it's ignorant to deny someone the opportunity to better themself because of a tattoo. because of a love for art. because of someone wanting to get a mark of a special time in their life or be creative or express something that moves them. it sucks. it's sad.

this country isnt equal and that proves it completely.
are you even reading the discussion in this thread?

everyone is saying that they don't think tattoos aren't professional, in their personal opinion. they're just saying that business DO think they're unprofessional, and that sucks. it's just the truth.

[gabrielM]

someone asked what my tats were. the visible 1s on my hands are a rose on my right hand with the words STAY TRUE around it. Last Hope across my fingers. Believe In Me... in cursive on my palms. and Vena Amoris on my left ring finger.

and ur rite perceptrons, im sorry. i know you all dont think tats are bad or are even saying that. but im just trying to say that look how we all know that tats are supposed to be bad or unprofessional. but why do we know that? because it was forced upon us. we may not believe it but we know it. and it's a shame.

it's a big time letdown and it's kinda disgusting that in a country as strong as ours, that's a problem.

[gabrielM]

tattoos being unprofessional, wether we believe it or not, should no longer be floating around. they are not unprofessional if you master your craft or are good at your job. what makes me professional is how i carry myself and speak to the public or co-workers (whoever i interact with at my job), how i work and how well i can do my job, the respect i give those around me. not the fact of me having a tattoo on my hand or throat.

[kbi the crowing]

discrimination is not hiring someone because of race or something. something they didn't get to choose.

you sound like Fred Phelps

[kbi the crowing]

hey everyone, i recently had a big problem with the tattoos on my skin. i love my tattoos with everything in me and i dont regret them. i have tats down my arms, my chest, my hands and my fingers. none of them are gang/drug related or sexual. theyre all symbols of indivitualism and artwork i personally love and tell or hold stories within them.

anyhow, the problem is this; over a year and a half ago i had applied for work with TSA (transportation security association), for those who arent sure what that is, it's the security at the airport. it's a great job to build a career from, with great pay, great benefits and great opportunities to continue to work for the federal government. i know other people who work there as well. now, since it's security at the airport and the government is involved, it has a very extensive hiring process which i've been in for a year and a half. i passed background checks, credit checks, medical exams including eye and ear tests, general knowledge tests, xray tests, color exams and even had to collect information for the past 10 years of my job and living history. the process was really long but i was feeling good and confident i would get the job soon because i was passing all of those exams and tests. i even had a face to face interview with a superior in TSA. during the interview he saw my tattoos on my hands and said that those may be a problem in the future with TSA but not to become an entry level officer because i would be required to wear gloves at the checkpoints anyhow. i said ok, that's not a problem, i'll cross that bridge when i get there. i just wanted to get my foot in the door. he even went as far as telling me how nice my tattoos were and how some of the employees for TSA have some and i told him about the employees i knew who also had some tattoos. so i passed that interview as well.

the problem came when i got a call last week from TSA Miami and i thought i was going to be set up for my final training and finally be hired. instead they told me they had new policies and had to ask me a few questions. 1st they asked if i had worked for TSA before and i said no. the next question was "do u have any tattoos that the TSA uniform cannot cover?" i said yes, but i was told they wouldn't be a problem to be an entry level officer for TSA and i would have to wear gloves at the checkpoints to deal with the public anyhow. the woman said that gloves are not considered part of the uniform even though i would have to wear them. she then told me i wouldnt be hired or considered for hiring because of the tattoos on my hands.

what bothered me the most is that i was told that the real reason i wont be hired is because of my tattoos. even more so, TSA prides itself on being "an equal opportunity employer" when in all reality my opportunity was taken from me because of tattoos on my hand. tattoos neither make me more or less qualified to do a job but they basically told me i was unqualified to do the job because of the tattoos on my hands.

i currently work for my county and represent them very well as a process server and my tattoos are not a problem. i'm shocked and disgusted that in a country as diverse and equal as ours, i was denied a job because of my tattoos. i was trying to get a good job and better myself and my situation and i was denied that because of my love for artwork.

the worst part is that i called a free legal hotline in my area and they told me that what was done to me is not ilegal because a tattoo is an external marking. it's something i added to my body. i still feel cheated and i still feel bad about what has happened to me. there's acts in place to defend religion, race, sexual orientation and gender in the work field but tattoos and those who have them don't get the same respect. it's a shame.

anyone have any ideas, opinions or just similar stories they wanna share?

I feel for you dude, my condolences.

[optimusrob]

Discrimination against the color of your skin

[x togepi x]

That's fine, good for you. Be prepared to find employment elsewhere. YOU are the one asking for employment (in this hypothetical situation). You need them, not the other way around.

I'm not "mindlessly" siding with business. You have every right to make choices about your body, and businesses have every right to make choices that will allow them to be as successful and profitable as possible (with the exception of unfair discrimination, and I don't believe visible tattoos fall under that category).

The reason i'm saying you're mindlessly buying corporate bullshit is because you're ignoring the point that public perception of tattoos is completely different than it was twenty years ago.

[xshady121]

It's pretty humorous reading some of the posts here.

Ideally, it wouldn't matter. But it does.

Ask your HR rep at work why they don't hire people with uncoverable tattoos. It's the same reason they require a "professional appearance" at work. You represent the company and the image they would like to project. If you can't adhere to that image, then good luck finding work elsewhere.

[five inch taint]

http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/foia/TSA_MD_1100_73_2_FINAL_070621.pdf

"(6) Tattoos: Tattoos must be covered at all times and not visible to the general public. Officers whose tattoos are visible when wearing a short sleeve shirt must wear a long sleeve shirt on duty. Officers with visible arm tattoos should order long sleeve shirts when placing their initial uniform orders. Exceptions may be granted by the FSD only when the tattoo is covered by an acceptable band that does not detract from the uniform."


The Air Force is going to prevent some individuals with tattoos from re-enlisting.

[SlappedActor]

The reason i'm saying you're mindlessly buying corporate bullshit is because you're ignoring the point that public perception of tattoos is completely different than it was twenty years ago.

How did I ignore that exactly? I never said public perception hasn't changed. But obviously it hasn't changed enough, or the original post would never have been made. I'm still not sure what bullshit I'm supposedly buying.

Regardless of where public opinion on tattoos swings, tattoos are still a choice, and because of that, businesses still have the choice of choosing whether or not to incorporate tattoos into their company image. It simply makes it much less of an issue, or a non-issue entirely, if the public proves that they are accepting of doing business with people who have them, which hasn't happened (enough) yet.

[x togepi x]

i'm just pro-people living how they want to and not having their jobs dictate their lifestyle.

[ambulance]

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. There are many, many jobs in which your appearance can be directly tied to your ability to do the job, aka MERIT. You've even agreed with this, I don't know why you keep driving this argument into the ground. Businesses want to make money. If it can be proven that you having visible tattoos can prevent them from making as much money as possible, they have every right to find somebody else who can do the job.

Look, I know how businesses work, you don't have to keep telling me. You keep ignoring the point I'm making. THIS SHOULD NOT BE AN ISSUE. IT IS DISCRIMINATION. I'm proposing that we need to move past this, and continuing to perpetuate this idea of what 'professionalism' LOOKS like is idiotic. Businesses, and people, need to move past this and the only way it's going to happen is from the businesses side. Should I even bring up race? Do you really expect the people to just magically realize that people with tattoos can be just as 'professional' and qualified as any other person in a suit and tie if they aren't given the chance to prove it? You are really getting annoying.

Nobody is limiting your freedom. Your body is your own, get as many tattoos as you want. Lots of people do it and do just fine in their lives. Unless you get some hardcore facial tattoos, you'll probably still be able to find a job somewhere, but it might not be the one you want. You just don't want to deal with any possible consequences of your choices.

Okay let me run this scenario by you, (you even said it yourself). 1. You want to get a tattoo 2. You don't because you realize it won't allow you to take full advantage of the job market 3. Your freedom has been limited.
Sure you still have 'freedom' in the existential sense, you can do what you want with your life and your body. The facticity of our life, however, prevents us from taking advantage of our full freedom. This is a superfluous limit on our freedom. It's discrimination.

Aren't you the one asking for employment? God forbid you actually have to meet some requirements to work for a company. Why should businesses have to to cater to you based on YOUR CHOICES? If you don't want to adapt to them, they'll find somebody else who can probably do the job just as good or better.

Yeah, you want to WORK for the business, not look pretty. If you meet those requirements you shouldn't be denied a job just because you have tattoos.

They shouldn't be catering, it should be a non-issue altogether.

Well, you make it so easy.

THIS FUCKING GUY.

[SlappedActor]

Look, I know how businesses work, you don't have to keep telling me. You keep ignoring the point I'm making. THIS SHOULD NOT BE AN ISSUE. IT IS DISCRIMINATION. I'm proposing that we need to move past this, and continuing to perpetuate this idea of what 'professionalism' LOOKS like is idiotic. Businesses, and people, need to move past this and the only way it's going to happen is from the businesses side. Should I even bring up race? Do you really expect the people to just magically realize that people with tattoos can be just as 'professional' and qualified as any other person in a suit and tie if they aren't given the chance to prove it? You are really getting annoying.



Okay let me run this scenario by you, (you even said it yourself). 1. You want to get a tattoo 2. You don't because you realize it won't allow you to take full advantage of the job market 3. Your freedom has been limited.
Sure you still have 'freedom' in the existential sense, you can do what you want with your life and your body. The facticity of our life, however, prevents us from taking advantage of our full freedom. This is a superfluous limit on our freedom. It's discrimination.



Yeah, you want to WORK for the business, not look pretty. If you meet those requirements you shouldn't be denied a job just because you have tattoos.

They shouldn't be catering, it should be a non-issue altogether.



THIS FUCKING GUY.

Every remark in that flurry of stupidity has already been addressed multiple times in this thread, so I won't bother. For the record, my lack of tattoos has nothing to do with concern over getting the job I want, and I never said any such thing. In my field, it's more or less irrelevant. I've just never seen one that I wanted bad enough to get. I don't know what you do for a living, and don't really care, but you clearly DON'T know how business works. You are a genuine idiot, and not even worth responding to anymore. Good luck.

[ambulance]

Every remark in that flurry of stupidity has already been addressed multiple times in this thread, so I won't bother. For the record, my lack of tattoos has nothing to do with concern over getting the job I want, and I never said any such thing. In my field, it's more or less irrelevant. I've just never seen one that I wanted bad enough to get. I don't know what you do for a living, and don't really care, but you clearly DON'T know how business works. You are a genuine idiot, and not even worth responding to anymore. Good luck.

LOL. Okay, call me stupid and continue to not address any of my points. You keep saying I don't know how it works when I agreed with you and other posters in this thread. But what you don't seem to understand is, that I find how our current business model is to be flawed and discriminatory. That's all I'm saying yet you continually ignore it by saying 'THAT'S JUST HOW BUSINESS IS BRO. GOTTA MAKE THAT $$$$.' Whatever.

[caveBEAR]

Then have some self-control and learn to prioritize, or do whatever you want and learn to accept that certain consequences will follow. I could care less what you do, but it's not like it's that difficult to figure out.

I was being facetious. Calm down, John Elway.

[SlappedActor]

I was being facetious. Calm down, John Elway.

Haha, sorry dude, didn't pick up on it.

[x togepi x]

i think "learn to prioritize" is a little unfair when you're holding people at economic gunpoint.

[oh...rly]

Damn people will complain about the stupidest shit.

Life isn't fair. Deal with it.

[Mibabalou]

i have a huge meth pipe on my back

[katyara]

This has two sides. If you know what you want to do isn't the kind of job where you can display tattoos and be taken as seriously as possible (IE lawyer) and you get a tattoo anyway, it's your fault when you're not hired. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

[ohitsmark]

I didn't get a chance to read all 7 pages of this thread, but basically the whole discriminating against people with tattoos and piercings is simple.

It's all about customer service. When dealing with a younger generation or even parents, they can understand you have that tattoo, usually regardless if its nice artwork, a band logo or something or if you have your nose pierced or something.

But there is always the conservative type of people that believe that having that stuff, makes you a bad person. Then you get all your stereotypes. Tattoos: must be in a gang, does drugs, and what not.

As for the OP, he chose to make a decision in which having tattoos in very visible places would prevent him from having certain jobs dealing with the public.

[open mind]

it's perfectly acceptable to discriminate against people because of actions they've chosen to take.

background checks, credit reports, drug testing, and body modification are just the more obvious examples of that.

[zion the lion]

In 10, maybe 15 years tattoos on the arms and maybe the hands will be okay, until then you just have to deal with it. The fact that more and more businesses are becoming open minded when it comes to some body modification is a good sign. My mom works at a rehab, not only did she recently get tattoos on her feet, but the bosses there are perfectly fine with them being visible.

I have to start looking for a job soon, this thread actually reminded me that I have a nose ring (hoop, not a stud), but I think I'll be able to keep it in for a couple more years and get away with it.

In the case of the model I'd call bullshit because they can cover up tattoos with make up or photoshop. I know that many places don't want to hire a tattooed individual, my main question is why not? If a tattoo is not gang or drug related, sexual or offensive then what's the problem with it? Oh yeah it's called stereotyping, which is still discrimination on a very ignorant level. Just because someone has a piercing or a tattoo then they're immediately viewed as a rebel or a seedy member of society. It's not just businesses that do this, many members of today's society discriminate against people with tattoos and piercings too. It's time that they realize that it is a form of art and there is nothing unprofessional about it.

Dead wrong. Photoshopping is expensive. Applying enough body makeup to cover up every hint of a tattoo takes a lot of time, on the runway it can rub into the clothes, and when taking pictures it can rub on to other models (not everyone is the same shade, not to mention the makeup artist would have to reapply it) or on to clothes or on the set. The only top model I can think of off the top of my head who has a tattoo is Jessica Stam. Not many people want to hire models with tattoos because it takes up too much time and time is really expensive, they'll make exceptions for the big models but even then, they dont really start off with tattoos.

[xshady121]

In 10, maybe 15 years tattoos on the arms and maybe the hands will be okay, until then you just have to deal with it. The fact that more and more businesses are becoming open minded when it comes to some body modification is a good sign. My mom works at a rehab, not only did she recently get tattoos on her feet, but the bosses there are perfectly fine with them being visible.

I have to start looking for a job soon, this thread actually reminded me that I have a nose ring (hoop, not a stud), but I think I'll be able to keep it in for a couple more years and get away with it.



Dead wrong. Photoshopping is expensive. Applying enough body makeup to cover up every hint of a tattoo takes a lot of time, on the runway it can rub into the clothes, and when taking pictures it can rub on to other models (not everyone is the same shade, not to mention the makeup artist would have to reapply it) or on to clothes or on the set. The only top model I can think of off the top of my head who has a tattoo is Jessica Stam. Not many people want to hire models with tattoos because it takes up too much time and time is really expensive, they'll make exceptions for the big models but even then, they dont really start off with tattoos.

Never in the corporate world.

If you believe otherwise you're mistaken.

[bard]

Never in the corporate world.

If you believe otherwise you're mistaken.
i'm not speaking for all corporations, but i work for a multi-million dollar corporation and tattoos/piercings are allowed as long as they aren't crude/offensive/grotesque/etc....

but we also don't interact with customers in person...

[zion the lion]

Never in the corporate world.

If you believe otherwise you're mistaken.

Maybe in 20 years, but I cant imagine it never happening in the corporate world.

[xshady121]

Maybe in 20 years, but I cant imagine it never happening in the corporate world.

Ignorance is bliss.

[xshady121]

i'm not speaking for all corporations, but i work for a multi-million dollar corporation and tattoos/piercings are allowed as long as they aren't crude/offensive/grotesque/etc....

but we also don't interact with customers in person...

From my experiences working with a large international lawfirm, the policy was strict. No visible tattoos. Their reasoning was, even though I had no interaction directly with clients, clients are present in various places of the firm. As a member of the firm, I was expected to project a certain image they wanted to convey to their clients.

It's the same reason that I couldn't wear jeans and a tshirt, even though my interactions were limited to a handful of middle management type guys all day. I wish I could have-- would have saved me alot on dry cleaning.

[zion the lion]

Ignorance is bliss.

It truly is.

[xshady121]

It truly is.

When you get a feel of what the corporate world actually is, and how the real world actually works, we'll continue this conversation.

[saysmydoctor]

What do you know, bro, zion the lion has an anecdote for everything so obviously it is YOU who is wrong.

[Animalhill]

When you get a feel of what the corporate world actually is, and how the real world actually works, we'll continue this conversation.
I worked in an office for a Fortune 1000 company and they had no problem with visible tattoos;-).

[xshady121]

I worked in an office for a Fortune 1000 company and they had no problem with visible tattoos;-).

I'm not saying some of it won't be, I'm saying if she thinks it will be the industry standard to allow visible tattoos (and I'm not talking about just one tattoo, I'm talking many like the OP had said before), then she's mistaken.

[saysmydoctor]

<zion the lion story here>

[Animalhill]

I'm not saying some of it won't be, I'm saying if she thinks it will be the industry standard to allow visible tattoos (and I'm not talking about just one tattoo, I'm talking many like the OP had said before), then she's mistaken.
True- there will obviously be certain corporations that forbid it, but its not like its impossible to have visible tattoos and get a corporate job. Still, the fact that tattoos predate corporations should mean something... but it doesn't.

[caveBEAR]

<zion the lion story here>

Ha ha ha, I thought I was the only one noticing that. I swear, I could start a thread about 'Encounters With Grandparents & Primates on Distant Planets', and she'd come in with 'I remember when me and my grandmother were on Pluto, and we had just gotten back from her eye appointment, she had bad eyes, so she wore glasses, but it was cool because she was kinda conservative but no worries because she was nice to everyone, when all of a sudden a baboon came down and killed her. It was sad because she was my ride home.'

[gabrielM]

do u mind if i ask what fortune 1000 company you work for?

[OutOfStep187]

I'm a public librarian with a master's degree and I have three tattoos, two of which are very visible when I wear short sleeves. When I got my first tattoo I didn't worry because it was my shoulder blade and very easy to cover. I was going to school to teach at the time. I was substitute teaching when I got the second one on the inside of my arm and the third one two years ago around my wrist. Public libraries are government jobs and are definitely a business atmosphere. It all depends on the area that interests you. When I was teaching I worried about them. Now that I'm in the library I don't and plan to get more.

That people are being discriminated against because of tattoos still in this day and age is ridiculous. Tattoo, like clothes can be very expressive and different and still be tasteful and nice. I love mine. I will never work a job where they aren't allowed though I could conceivably hide them if I wanted to. I just don't want to work in a place where they're that closed minded. I'm happy that I found a place where they're happy to accept me with all of my tattoos and value my skills.

[kbi the crowing]

What do you know, bro, zion the lion has an anecdote for everything so obviously it is YOU who is wrong.

<zion the lion story here>

:appl:

best honest laugh I've gotten from the site in a while

[gabrielM]

that's good to hear. there should be more places like where you work. where ppl aren't so ignorant and close minded.

the way i see it is at 1 point, jobs were allowed to deny employment to handicapped ppl, further back it was ok to deny ppl employment because they were African American but then enough ppl stopped being ignorant and decided to fight and an act was made to prevent these things from happening. so i believe that if enough ppl stop being ignorant, an act can be made to defend us with tattoos in the work field and in public in general. i just don't know how to go about it or how to start it.

when you think about it, not so far back, maybe 10-15 years ago or even less in some places, blacks or women were not going to be accepted as leaders of this country and this year a woman ran for president and now a black man is president. i wish i could speak to Barack Obama and get his honest opinion on this because i know he knows what it feels like to be discriminated against.

absolutepunk.net should find a way to speak to mr. obama and express our disgust with what's happening in America with discrimination. lol.

[SlappedActor]

<zion the lion story here>

Hahahaha so true.

[Kozzy333]

Ha ha ha, I thought I was the only one noticing that. I swear, I could start a thread about 'Encounters With Grandparents & Primates on Distant Planets', and she'd come in with 'I remember when me and my grandmother were on Pluto, and we had just gotten back from her eye appointment, she had bad eyes, so she wore glasses, but it was cool because she was kinda conservative but no worries because she was nice to everyone, when all of a sudden a baboon came down and killed her. It was sad because she was my ride home.'

I fucking lol'd.

[RedWineSheets]

It's pretty humorous reading some of the posts here.

Ideally, it wouldn't matter. But it does.

Ask your HR rep at work why they don't hire people with uncoverable tattoos. It's the same reason they require a "professional appearance" at work. You represent the company and the image they would like to project. If you can't adhere to that image, then good luck finding work elsewhere.

this.

you chose to get visible tatoos. obviously you knew this was looked down upon in the business world, you did it anyway. tough shit.

[samsara]

I think if you want to work in a more professional environment you have to adhere to their rules. Covering up tattoos and taking out piercings may seem inconvenient but if it helps you get money then I think that it is worth the small sacrifice.

[gabrielM]

well that's the problem, honestly i would cover them if they ask and regardless, in TSA you are touching ppl and you have to wear gloves regardless. that's why it's even more stupid. that shit is garbage.

[zion the lion]

When you get a feel of what the corporate world actually is, and how the real world actually works, we'll continue this conversation.

That depends on what you consider to be the corporate world.

I'm not saying some of it won't be, I'm saying if she thinks it will be the industry standard to allow visible tattoos (and I'm not talking about just one tattoo, I'm talking many like the OP had said before), then she's mistaken.

I meant a few visible tattoos, not a body suit or even sleeve, more like a small tattoo on a finger and a few small ones on the arms that wouldnt need to be covered up. Which I think will happen. I doubt having something like a body suit or tattoos on your face is going to be accepted in the white collar world any time soon.

Ha ha ha, I thought I was the only one noticing that. I swear, I could start a thread about 'Encounters With Grandparents & Primates on Distant Planets', and she'd come in with 'I remember when me and my grandmother were on Pluto, and we had just gotten back from her eye appointment, she had bad eyes, so she wore glasses, but it was cool because she was kinda conservative but no worries because she was nice to everyone, when all of a sudden a baboon came down and killed her. It was sad because she was my ride home.'

Man made technology hasnt even been near Pluto, and if you're going to name a dwarf planet at all, why not use Eris instead?

well that's the problem, honestly i would cover them if they ask and regardless, in TSA you are touching ppl and you have to wear gloves regardless. that's why it's even more stupid. that shit is garbage.

Would they have made you wear latex gloves or the other kind?

[xshady121]

That depends on what you consider to be the corporate world.




What experiences do you, as a 17 year old, have in the corporate world

[zion the lion]

What experiences do you, as a 17 year old, have in the corporate world

I was asking what you consider what's really corporate and what isnt, after you define that, I'll be able to tell you what experiences I may or may not have in the corporate world...which also depends on what you consider real experience.

[xshady121]

You're too funny. Really.

[RedWineSheets]

cashier at the local anchorage, alaska mcdonalds.

[xshady121]

cashier at the local anchorage, alaska mcdonalds.

Well that's obviously corporate america. I mean, they're a multinational corporation RIGHT?!?

[gabrielM]

yea they let you choose, either latex gloves or cloth white gloves. a friend of mine wears cloth white 1s because his hands get rashes when he wears the latex 1s for to long.

[zion the lion]

You're too funny. Really.

Well, as long as I brought you a mental chuckle, its all good.

cashier at the local anchorage, alaska mcdonalds.

There's probably 30 of them, I cant really work, and I havent been to mcdonalds in a long time, so no.

Well that's obviously corporate america. I mean, they're a multinational corporation RIGHT?!?

I'm assuming you didnt understand what I was asking. If you only consider "real" experience in that kind of environment to be legally working there 40 hours a week and a pay check that includes tax deductions, then I have none. What you think of as a corporate job and what I think is a corporate job could be two completely different things. If you want to consider it an office job with a cubicle, dress code, and a bunch of bitter, angry people, then, I have had to sit around and watch other people work there. My mom (and here comes the zion the lion story dedicated for saysmydoctor) has worked with many different types of companies doing different types of jobs (none of them being factory worker, hair dresser, tattoo artist, chef, burger flipper, ditch digger, truck driver, etc.) and I have had to spend most of my time with her while she was at work , where I helped around the office and got a firsthand look at how the corporate world works.

And no, I dont consider being a cashier at one of the local anchorage, alaska mcdonalds the type of job you'd call corporate.

[zion the lion]

yea they let you choose, either latex gloves or cloth white gloves. a friend of mine wears cloth white 1s because his hands get rashes when he wears the latex 1s for to long.

I would understand them considering latex gloves not to be apart of the uniform, but it makes no sense for the cloth ones not to be included as a part of the uniform.

[saysmydoctor]

Man made technology hasnt even been near Pluto, and if you're going to name a dwarf planet at all, why not use Eris instead?
Whoa, you read some random Wikipedia article, you must be really smart, dude!

[zion the lion]

Whoa, you read some random Wikipedia article, you must be really smart, dude!

You mean the wikipedia article that mentions how I've been obsessed with astronomy for 13 years and kept a little journal of my own "research" when I was seven years old? You read it too?! I'm really glad you've had surveillance cameras watching me, random people spying on me, and microchips in my brain and skin, since the day I was conceived so that you would know every single detail about me in order to invalidate everything I say as if I'm just some random wikipedia junkie. Thank you for being my guardian angel. Truly, you are the sunshine of my life, big brother, and I'm eternally grateful.

[xshady121]

Well, as long as I brought you a mental chuckle, its all good.



There's probably 30 of them, I cant really work, and I havent been to mcdonalds in a long time, so no.



I'm assuming you didnt understand what I was asking. If you only consider "real" experience in that kind of environment to be legally working there 40 hours a week and a pay check that includes tax deductions, then I have none. What you think of as a corporate job and what I think is a corporate job could be two completely different things. If you want to consider it an office job with a cubicle, dress code, and a bunch of bitter, angry people, then, I have had to sit around and watch other people work there. My mom (and here comes the zion the lion story dedicated for saysmydoctor) has worked with many different types of companies doing different types of jobs (none of them being factory worker, hair dresser, tattoo artist, chef, burger flipper, ditch digger, truck driver, etc.) and I have had to spend most of my time with her while she was at work , where I helped around the office and got a firsthand look at how the corporate world works.

And no, I dont consider being a cashier at one of the local anchorage, alaska mcdonalds the type of job you'd call corporate.

Have you worked in a corporate office? Have you worked for a company that has more than 9 employees and more than 1 branch? Have you worked for a company with a big HR department, a CEO/CFO, or another business-world type atmosphere? I'm not talking about local jobs or blue collar jobs. Have you ever worked at a position that requires a B.A. or B.S. before they even think about reviewing your resume? No? You haven't? Then shut up.

A job with an office and a cubicle isn't always the "corporate world". A local company is hardly "the corporate world".

You can think that you are this wealth of knowledge and real world experience, but you have none.

[zion the lion]

Have you worked in a corporate office? Have you worked for a company that has more than 9 employees and more than 1 branch? Have you worked for a company with a big HR department, a CEO/CFO, or another business-world type atmosphere? I'm not talking about local jobs or blue collar jobs. Have you ever worked at a position that requires a B.A. or B.S. before they even think about reviewing your resume? No? You haven't? Then shut up.

A job with an office and a cubicle isn't always the "corporate world". A local company is hardly "the corporate world".

You can think that you are this wealth of knowledge and real world experience, but you have none.

Did I ever say that I was some "wealth of knowledge and real world experience"? Absolutely not. If you actually try not to misunderstand what I'm saying you would realize that I never said that in 10 years, heavily tattooed people will be climbing the corporate ladder with their tattoos (no matter how vulgar or disturbing they are) clearly visible the whole way up. I never said that I worked for any company at all. You said this:

When you get a feel of what the corporate world actually is, and how the real world actually works

And I asked for your definition of the corporate world, which you didnt give me until now. You never said anything about working, and I even said (more than once now) that I've never worked for a corporate company. I do, though, consider spending my summers/winter and spring breaks and the hours after school (as well as weekends most of the time) with my mom at work since I was 4 to be getting a feel of what the corporate world actually is and how the "real world" really works. That's not me claiming to have a "wealth of knowledge and real world experience" but I at least know a little bit.

[xshady121]

Did I ever say that I was some "wealth of knowledge and real world experience"? Absolutely not. If you actually try not to misunderstand what I'm saying you would realize that I never said that in 10 years, heavily tattooed people will be climbing the corporate ladder with their tattoos (no matter how vulgar or disturbing they are) clearly visible the whole way up. I never said that I worked for any company at all. You said this:



And I asked for your definition of the corporate world, which you didnt give me until now. You never said anything about working, and I even said (more than once now) that I've never worked for a corporate company. I do, though, consider spending my summers/winter and spring breaks and the hours after school (as well as weekends most of the time) with my mom at work since I was 4 to be getting a feel of what the corporate world actually is and how the "real world" really works. That's not me claiming to have a "wealth of knowledge and real world experience" but I at least know a little bit.

I spent a few days watching the Miami Heat practice when my friends dad was their assistant coach. I guess I can consider myself to have a pretty good idea about how to run an NBA Offense. Fuck Kiki Vandeweghe, the Nets should give me a call.

[rawesome]

Whoa, you read some random Wikipedia article, you must be really smart, dude!
Are you implying that someone who seeks out information to learn something is somehow less intelligent than you?

[samsara]

Are you implying that someone who seeks out information to learn something is somehow less intelligent than you?

Probably saying someone that gets their information from an unreliable source shouldnt be really giving their opinion on anything since it can be proven as false since they didnt do the proper research.

:shrug:

Thats what I took from it.

[rawesome]

Probably saying someone that gets their information from an unreliable source shouldnt be really giving their opinion on anything since it can be proven as false since they didnt do the proper research.

:shrug:

Thats what I took from it.
Oh. Was what she said false?

[Tead42]

Probably saying someone that gets their information from an unreliable source shouldnt be really giving their opinion on anything since it can be proven as false since they didnt do the proper research.

:shrug:

Thats what I took from it.
I think it's that they educated themselves after the opinion was stated.

[rawesome]

By the way, your username is great.

EDIT: To samsara

[xshady121]

Really you three? He's saying she consulted wikipedia to make herself sound worldly by name dropping a planet (and a fact) she shouldn't have heard of.

She does it all the time.

[samsara]

Oh. Was what she said false?

No I said if she didnt do the proper research then it could be false.
I think it's that they educated themselves after the opinion was stated.

Uh huh

[samsara]

By the way, your username is great.

EDIT: To samsara

Thanks.

[Tead42]

Really? He's saying she consulted wikipedia to make herself sound worldly by name dropping a planet she shouldn't have heard of.

She does it all the time.
:nod:

[rawesome]

Really you three? He's saying she consulted wikipedia to make herself sound worldly by name dropping a planet she shouldn't have heard of.

She does it all the time.
Whatever, I don't follow her posting but that doesn't make his statement any less arrogant. To try and belittle her for making an effort to learn and engage herself in conversation is entirely unnecessary.

I mean, is it any different for him to make himself feel smart for making fun of her than it is for her to try and feel smart by looking at Wikipedia?

[xshady121]

:nod:

Stick around here long enough (or the personal life forum) and you'll get to experience the hilarity that is Zion the lion.

[Tead42]

Whatever, I don't follow her posting but that doesn't make his statement any less arrogant. To try and belittle her for making an effort to learn and engage herself in conversation is entirely unnecessary.

I mean, is it any different for him to make himself feel smart for making fun of her than it is for her to try and feel smart by looking at Wikipedia?
Copy-pasting is not educating one's self.

[zion the lion]

I spent a few days watching the Miami Heat practice when my friends dad was their assistant coach. I guess I can consider myself to have a pretty good idea about how to run an NBA Offense. Fuck Kiki Vandeweghe, the Nets should give me a call.

Because a few days is the same as 13 years.

I do love how you think the four years you have on me, somehow makes you a god and devalues any amount of experience I've ever had.

[xshady121]

Whatever, I don't follow her posting but that doesn't make his statement any less arrogant. To try and belittle her for making an effort to learn and engage herself in conversation is entirely unnecessary.

I mean, is it any different for him to make himself feel smart for making fun of her than it is for her to try and feel smart by looking at Wikipedia?

Sean's a class act.

Zion the lion is the worlds most worldly 17 year old ever, apparently. Anything you've ever done, she (and her grandmother and aunt) have done twice. Remember when Jonas Salk discovered the polio vaccine? Well her grandmother discovered it first but her family was too poor to further develop the vaccine and distribute it.

She's ridiculous. If you were around here long enough, you'd feel the same way.

[Tead42]

Stick around here long enough (or the personal life forum) and you'll get to experience the hilarity that is Zion the lion.
I think I may have started seeing the light. Btw you might be proud since I am registering libertarian when I turn of age next year.

[samsara]

Whatever, I don't follow her posting but that doesn't make his statement any less arrogant. To try and belittle her for making an effort to learn and engage herself in conversation is entirely unnecessary.

I mean, is it any different for him to make himself feel smart for making fun of her than it is for her to try and feel smart by looking at Wikipedia?

Have you actually seen her post?


She isnt trying to futher herself. She is trying to one up people by trying to sound smarter than they are.

[rawesome]

Copy-pasting is not educating one's self.
How does one educate themselves?

[xshady121]

Because a few days is the same as 13 years.

I do love how you think the four years you have on me, somehow makes you a god and devalues any amount of experience I've ever had.

No. I think the 2 years (well, 12 months spread over 18 months) I've spent working in one of the 25 biggest lawfirms in the world makes me a little bit more qualified to judge the corporate world than you are.

Unless you have worked for another firm that I just didn't know about.

[Tead42]

How does one educate themselves?
Researching and understanding.

[saysmydoctor]

Are you implying that someone who seeks out information to learn something is somehow less intelligent than you?

Really you three? He's saying she consulted wikipedia to make herself sound worldly by name dropping a planet (and a fact) she shouldn't have heard of.

She does it all the time.
Jesus Christ, didn't think I'd have to spell this the fuck out, as if I'm talking to a bunch of idiot Wheel of Fortune contestants.

[rawesome]

Sean's a class act.

Zion the lion is the worlds most worldly 17 year old ever, apparently. Anything you've ever done, she (and her grandmother and aunt) have done twice. Remember when Jonas Salk discovered the polio vaccine? Well her grandmother discovered it first but her family was too poor to further develop the vaccine and distribute it.

She's ridiculous. If you were around here long enough, you'd feel the same way.
Haha, alright. I just don't feel like people should attack someone else for not having the same knowledge that they do. Her agenda may be lame, but there's no need to be snarky.

[xshady121]

I think I may have started seeing the light. Btw you might be proud since I am registering libertarian when I turn of age next year.

I'm still a registered republican, but only so I can vote in the primaries. I voted for paul (in both the primary and elections). I really see no benefit to registering libertarian at this point.

[saysmydoctor]

zion the lion is one of those one-uppers who always has a tale that's somehow better and more elaborate than yours.

The only talent she has is fiction. The problem is, it's in the vein of Stephanie Meyer.

[Tead42]

I'm still a registered republican, but only so I can vote in the primaries. I voted for paul (in both the primary and elections). I really see no benefit to registering libertarian at this point.
Hmm I suppose that's a good choice.

[Tead42]

zion the lion is one of those one-uppers who always has a tale that's somehow better and more elaborate than yours.

The only talent she has is fiction. The problem is, it's in the vein of Stephanie Meyer.
Well I'm better than zion because I am.

[rawesome]

Researching and understanding.
Wouldn't that be research?

[zion the lion]

Really you three? He's saying she consulted wikipedia to make herself sound worldly by name dropping a planet (and a fact) she shouldn't have heard of.

She does it all the time.

Please do prove to me that I do it all the time?

Again, my goal has always been to have an astronomy based job. It has been my obsession since I was four years old. I'm sure if you liked something as a child, you tried to learn as much about it as possible, and wanted to participate in anything that involved it. That being said, I do think that if I wanted to make a career out of observing celestial objects, I should know a little bit about the fact and the planet that you're referring to.

[saysmydoctor]

Because a few days is the same as 13 years.

I do love how you think the four years you have on me, somehow makes you a god and devalues any amount of experience I've ever had.
Also, is not what he said.

[Tead42]

Wouldn't that be research?
To some extent, but she searched for one specific answer to one specific question, allegedly.

[zion the lion]

No. I think the 2 years (well, 12 months spread over 18 months) I've spent working in one of the 25 biggest lawfirms in the world makes me a little bit more qualified to judge the corporate world than you are.

Unless you have worked for another firm that I just didn't know about.

Do show me where I said I had more experience than you do. Do show me where I said I knew more about it than you did. And then stop putting words in my mouth because its pathetic.

[zion the lion]

Sean's a class act.

Zion the lion is the worlds most worldly 17 year old ever, apparently. Anything you've ever done, she (and her grandmother and aunt) have done twice. Remember when Jonas Salk discovered the polio vaccine? Well her grandmother discovered it first but her family was too poor to further develop the vaccine and distribute it.

She's ridiculous. If you were around here long enough, you'd feel the same way.

I also want proof that I've claimed this ever.

[Tead42]

I also want proof that I've claimed this ever.
lol....

[xshady121]

Do show me where I said I had more experience than you do. Do show me where I said I knew more about it than you did. And then stop putting words in my mouth because its pathetic.


I do love how you think the four years you have on me, somehow makes you a god and devalues any amount of experience I've ever had

I've worked in a corporate environment. You've sat next to your mom (aunt, or grandmother) on bring your daughter to work day. One of us has experience, one of us watched someone do work.

I can watch CSPAN all I want, but I won't ever claim I have experience in the Senate.

[saysmydoctor]

Do show me where I said I had more experience than you do. Do show me where I said I knew more about it than you did. And then stop putting words in my mouth because its pathetic.
God, please, for the love of God, shut the fuck up. All you ever do is jump into a thread, share some senseless fucking anecdote or construct some asinine fucking argument--which leads everyone, including myself, to become so awe-inspired with just how mind-bogglingly stupid--yet how mind-bogglingly serious, all in the same motion--which leads to the complete distraction of the thread.

Honestly, this forum is not your speed. Take your shitty anecdotes to Personal Life, or something, please.

[zion the lion]

I've worked in a corporate environment. You've sat next to your mom (aunt, or grandmother) on bring your daughter to work day. One of us has experience, one of us watched someone do work.

I can watch CSPAN all I want, but I won't ever claim I have experience in the Senate.

That wasnt me saying I had more experience than you, that was me saying that you act like my observations of the corporate world dont count as real observations in the corporate world because I'm 17 and havent worked where you work. Did I ever claim to have experience?


God, please, for the love of God, shut the fuck up. All you ever do is jump into a thread, share some senseless fucking anecdote or construct some asinine fucking argument--which leads everyone, including myself, to become so awe-inspired with just how mind-bogglingly stupid--yet how mind-bogglingly serious, all in the same motion--which leads to the complete distraction of the thread.

Honestly, this forum is not your speed. Take your shitty anecdotes to Personal Life, or something, please.

Says the person who always has something to say about me when I post in any thread. God do you ever pay attention to how pathetically desperate you are for internet drama that you have to hound someone and make things up about them to satisfy your little needs?

[Brand-new-123]

:popcorn:

[samsara]

That wasnt me saying I had more experience than you, that was me saying that you act like my observations of the corporate world dont count as real observations in the corporate world because I'm 17 and havent worked where you work. Did I ever claim to have experience?




Says the person who always has something to say about me when I post in any thread. God do you ever pay attention to how pathetically desperate you are for internet drama that you have to hound someone and make things up about them to satisfy your little needs?

Maybe if you didnt trying so fucking hard.

[xshady121]

That wasnt me saying I had more experience than you, that was me saying that you act like my observations of the corporate world dont count as real observations in the corporate world because I'm 17 and havent worked where you work. Did I ever claim to have experience?




Says the person who always has something to say about me when I post in any thread. God do you ever pay attention to how pathetically desperate you are for internet drama that you have to hound someone and make things up about them to satisfy your little needs?


Now you're kidding me.

Did I ever say that I was some "wealth of knowledge and real world experience"? Absolutely not. If you actually try not to misunderstand what I'm saying you would realize that I never said that in 10 years, heavily tattooed people will be climbing the corporate ladder with their tattoos (no matter how vulgar or disturbing they are) clearly visible the whole way up. I never said that I worked for any company at all. You said this:

And I asked for your definition of the corporate world, which you didnt give me until now. You never said anything about working, and I even said (more than once now) that I've never worked for a corporate company. I do, though, consider spending my summers/winter and spring breaks and the hours after school (as well as weekends most of the time) with my mom at work since I was 4 to be getting a feel of what the corporate world actually is and how the "real world" really works. That's not me claiming to have a "wealth of knowledge and real world experience" but I at least know a little bit.


That's you claiming to have experience. So yes. Yes you did claim to have experience.

[Tead42]

That wasnt me saying I had more experience than you, that was me saying that you act like my observations of the corporate world dont count as real observations in the corporate world because I'm 17 and havent worked where you work. Did I ever claim to have experience?
Yes.
any amount of experience I've ever had.

[xshady121]

Yes.

Ouch, how'd I miss that one? Must be all the trash on the Jersey Shore Afterhours.

[zion the lion]

Now you're kidding me.




That's you claiming to have experience. So yes. Yes you did claim to have experience.

You dont know how to fucking read, do you? Look at the rest of the post before jumping to the conclusion that me observing automatically equals me having experience.

[Tead42]

Ouch, how'd I miss that one? Must be all the trash on the Jersey Shore Afterhours.
;-)

[zion the lion]

Yes.

That last quote meant with anything.

[Tead42]

That last quote meant with anything.
Backpedaling?

[samsara]

I love how she is ignoring me. Bitch.

[zion the lion]

Backpedaling?

No, clarifying.

Hey, can you provide me with the exact wikipedia article that I "copied and pasted" since you're in the habit of scrutinizing everything I've ever put down in writing.

[xshady121]

You dont know how to fucking read, do you? Look at the rest of the post before jumping to the conclusion that me observing automatically equals me having experience.

Oh come on.



And I asked for your definition of the corporate world, which you didnt give me until now. You never said anything about working, and I even said (more than once now) that I've never worked for a corporate company. I do, though, consider spending my summers/winter and spring breaks and the hours after school (as well as weekends most of the time) with my mom at work since I was 4 to be getting a feel of what the corporate world actually is and how the "real world" really works. That's not me claiming to have a "wealth of knowledge and real world experience" but I at least know a little bit.

That's you claiming to have experience. Right there!

[xshady121]

;-)

Absofruitly. It's like watching MTV follow around my high school class.

[Tead42]

Absofruitly. It's like watching MTV follow around my high school class.
It's agonizing to imagine.

[saysmydoctor]

Says the person who always has something to say about me when I post in any thread. God do you ever pay attention to how pathetically desperate you are for internet drama that you have to hound someone and make things up about them to satisfy your little needs?
I'm desperate for internet drama as I beg you, the source of drama currently in this thread, to shut the fuck up and leave because you aren't contributing anything worthwhile.

I'm so desperate.

[zion the lion]

Oh come on.



That's you claiming to have experience. Right there!

Stop reading between the lines and take what I say as just exactly what I say for just it's "surface" meaning, and then maybe you'll notice that I actually said I had no experience working in the corporate world. I dont consider getting a feel for what it is and seeing how it works to be "work experience" like you seem to think I do. I do, however, consider my observations to have given me some basic knowledge about it. Do I know the inner workings of it like a clockmaker knows how a clock works? No. But you seem to have been sidetracked and have forgotten what this was originally about. I have seen enough of the corporate world to know an employee's appearance is expected to be professional, to know how some companies react to tattoos in visible areas, and to make a guess about how those expectations might change in the next decade or two.

When you, sean, and that other idiot decide to stop making this a flame thread and go back to the original topic, I'd be more than glad to continue this conversation.

[xshady121]

Stop reading between the lines and take what I say as just exactly what I say for just it's "surface" meaning, and then maybe you'll notice that I actually said I had no experience working in the corporate world. I dont consider getting a feel for what it is and seeing how it works to be "work experience" like you seem to think I do. I do, however, consider my observations to have given me some basic knowledge about it. Do I know the inner workings of it like a clockmaker knows how a clock works? No. But you seem to have been sidetracked and have forgotten what this was originally about. I have seen enough of the corporate world to know an employee's appearance is expected to be professional, to know how some companies react to tattoos in visible areas, and to make a guess about how those expectations might change in the next decade or two.

When you, sean, and that other idiot decide to stop making this a flame thread and go back to the original topic, I'd be more than glad to continue this conversation.


You base that on nothing. Since you have no experience to base that on, your opinion is worthless.

With that said, judging by the knowledge I've gained by watching Miami Heat practices and talking with the coaching staff and players, I would make a guess that there will be a woman playing on the team in 5-7 years.

My absurd opinion has just as much weight as yours-- ZERO!

[zion the lion]

You base that on nothing. Since you have no experience to base that on, your opinion is worthless.

With that said, judging by the knowledge I've gained by watching Miami Heat practices and talking with the coaching staff and players, I would make a guess that there will be a woman playing on the team in 5-7 years.

My absurd opinion has just as much weight as yours-- ZERO!

Maybe I'm not using the right words, but you really arent understanding any bit of what I'm trying to say. If you stop harping on the fact that I've never had any corporate "work" experience, and pay attention to more than just that, you'll understand it better.

I'm really not sure how I based my opinion on nothing, or how my observations (which include knowing the employees, being around for the hiring process, watching the everyday things the employees do, seeing their dress code, and seeing how many employees adjust their clothing to comply with the dress code expectations when it comes to whatever body modifications they may have) equates to nothing thus making my opinion worthless, at all. Dont let your bias get in the way of acknowledging that I do have some ground to stand on when it comes to this subject, I do know a lot of people who work in the corporate world, I've seen how it works, I know how they deal with body art, and how much is acceptable now. I know that a good amount of generation X has had some form of body modification done, and that in 20 years they'll be the ones who will be the bosses, I also know that our generation has a more receptive attitude towards tattoos than those in the silent generation, greatest generation, or lost generation may have had towards them. The clientele will be changing in the next two decades and as tattoos become more common, so will the amount of employees and clients with them.

[xshady121]

Maybe I'm not using the right words, but you really arent understanding any bit of what I'm trying to say. If you stop harping on the fact that I've never had any corporate "work" experience, and pay attention to more than just that, you'll understand it better.

I'm really not sure how I based my opinion on nothing, or how my observations (which include knowing the employees, being around for the hiring process, watching the everyday things the employees do, seeing their dress code, and seeing how many employees adjust their clothing to comply with the dress code expectations when it comes to whatever body modifications they may have) equates to nothing thus making my opinion worthless, at all. Dont let your bias get in the way of acknowledging that I do have some ground to stand on when it comes to this subject, I do know a lot of people who work in the corporate world, I've seen how it works, I know how they deal with body art, and how much is acceptable now. I know that a good amount of generation X has had some form of body modification done, and that in 20 years they'll be the ones who will be the bosses, I also know that our generation has a more receptive attitude towards tattoos than those in the silent generation, greatest generation, or lost generation may have had towards them. The clientele will be changing in the next two decades and as tattoos become more common, so will the amount of employees and clients with them.

You either have experience, and base the opinion on that or you don't have any experience and base the opinion on nothing.

Now since you say many times that you never claimed to have experience, it has to be the latter.


I've observed many Miami Heat practices. I've "known the employees, been around for the process, and watched the everyday things teh employees do, seeing their dress code..." Does that make me qualified to render an opinion as to when I think the team will add a women to the roster? Or does that make me qualified to give shooting tips to Dwayne Wade? Or should I call up Pat Riley (I'll let you wikipedia him) and tell him "Yo pat, I know you're the basketball mind here, but I've seen enough watching practice to know that Q Rich is shit right now. I think in a few months, he's FGP is going to be so shitty that it has the potential to hurt the team. What is that? What do I base this on? Well, as you know, I've seen a few practices. I have a feel for how the bball world works. Thx pat"

[zion the lion]

You either have experience, and base the opinion on that or you don't have any experience and base the opinion on nothing.

Now since you say many times that you never claimed to have experience, it has to be the latter.


I've observed many Miami Heat practices. I've "known the employees, been around for the process, and watched the everyday things teh employees do, seeing their dress code..." Does that make me qualified to render an opinion as to when I think the team will add a women to the roster? Or does that make me qualified to give shooting tips to Dwayne Wade? Or should I call up Pat Riley (I'll let you wikipedia him) and tell him "Yo pat, I know you're the basketball mind here, but I've seen enough watching practice to know that Q Rich is shit right now. I think in a few months, he's FGP is going to be so shitty that it has the potential to hurt the team. What is that? What do I base this on? Well, as you know, I've seen a few practices. I have a feel for how the bball world works. Thx pat"

Okay then, apparently (like I assumed) our opinions of what should be considered "experience" are different. Which is why I asked a few pages ago what you considered "experience" to be.

Do you mind switching that analogy to something like astronomy so that I can understand it a little bit better?

[caveBEAR]

Okay then, apparently (like I assumed) our opinions of what should be considered "experience" are different. Which is why I asked a few pages ago what you considered "experience" to be.

Do you mind switching that analogy to something like astronomy so that I can understand it a little bit better?

Because everyone at ap.net is so well versed in astronomy...

[zion the lion]

Because everyone at ap.net is so well versed in astronomy...

That's quite obvious. I mean, when people in a thread can turn into a Jerry Springer audience because, according to them, things that are considered general knowledge in astronomy, are facts that shouldnt be known unless someone goes to wikipedia with the sole intent of sounding smart.

But I know nothing about basketball, so FPG's or whatever, make absolutely no sense to me. I thought that since he had such a well developed opinion about what I should and should not know about astronomy, that maybe he knew enough to make up a metaphor using it instead of basketball.

[bard]

wtf is going on in here now?

[paper halo]

wtf is going on in here now?

It's become a Zion the Lion thread and, as such, has lost any of it's original purpose or value.

[bard]

lol, sounds about right.

[caveBEAR]

That's quite obvious. I mean, when people in a thread can turn into a Jerry Springer audience because, according to them, things that are considered general knowledge in astronomy, are facts that shouldnt be known unless someone goes to wikipedia with the sole intent of sounding smart.

But I know nothing about basketball, so FPG's or whatever, make absolutely no sense to me. I thought that since he had such a well developed opinion about what I should and should not know about astronomy, that maybe he knew enough to make up a metaphor using it instead of basketball.

Jesus F. Christ, his point was obvious; just because you have been around something doesn't mean you are well suited to make decisions about it. You don't need to know what any of that meant because the point remained the same. You seem to have missed the point, so I don't think that a different set of variables would have changed that.

[zion the lion]

Jesus F. Christ, his point was obvious; just because you have been around something doesn't mean you are well suited to make decisions about it. You don't need to know what any of that meant because the point remained the same. You seem to have missed the point, so I don't think that a different set of variables would have changed that.

I did catch his point, but clearly you've fucking missed my point for the past few pages.

[caveBEAR]

I did catch his point, but clearly you've fucking missed my point for the past few pages.

I don't care what your point was, I'm not reading through all that drivel. I saw his post and your post, and felt like pointing out that you didn't need to comprehend the nuances and details of what he was describing to understand the point.

[bastard_of_ness]

While private industry can get away with this, I think the legal advice you got was bad because government work is guided by specific laws. If the position is a civil service position, there are even more laws and guidelines.

[zion the lion]

I don't care what your point was, I'm not reading through all that drivel. I saw his post and your post, and felt like pointing out that you didn't need to comprehend the nuances and details of what he was describing to understand the point.

That's wonderful to know. But it seems like that wasnt your intention with that first post at all. It seems to me that you were trying to be more of a dick. However, understanding the nuances and details of what he was describing could have helped me see where he went wrong and misunderstood what I was saying.

[xshady121]

Jesus F. Christ, his point was obvious; just because you have been around something doesn't mean you are well suited to make decisions about it. You don't need to know what any of that meant because the point remained the same. You seem to have missed the point, so I don't think that a different set of variables would have changed that.

Yes.

That's quite obvious. I mean, when people in a thread can turn into a Jerry Springer audience because, according to them, things that are considered general knowledge in astronomy, are facts that shouldnt be known unless someone goes to wikipedia with the sole intent of sounding smart.

But I know nothing about basketball, so FPG's or whatever, make absolutely no sense to me. I thought that since he had such a well developed opinion about what I should and should not know about astronomy, that maybe he knew enough to make up a metaphor using it instead of basketball.

Neither do I. That's the point. Me sitting there observing them work doesn't give me enough information to render an informed opinion.

You know, similar to yours.

[zion the lion]

Yes.



Neither do I. That's the point. Me sitting there observing them work doesn't give me enough information to render an informed opinion.

You know, similar to yours.

An informed opinion on how receptive the corporate world will be to tattoos in 20 years? If you didnt get caught up in that whole semantics bullshit earlier, I dont think you'd be at the point where you're too stubborn to admit that in 20 years, a small tattoo on the ankle, finger, wrist, forearm, upper arm, or foot wont be such a concern that it keeps people from working in the corporate world, which is exactly what I've been saying.

[xshady121]

An informed opinion on how receptive the corporate world will be to tattoos in 20 years? If you didnt get caught up in that whole semantics bullshit earlier, I dont think you'd be at the point where you're too stubborn to admit that in 20 years, a small tattoo on the ankle, finger, wrist, forearm, upper arm, or foot wont be such a concern that it keeps people from working in the corporate world, which is exactly what I've been saying.

With my experience working in the corporate world, I do not think that will be the case.

[TangledUp]

I really feel for you, OP. That sucks.

It reminds me of a story. There is a makeup/beauty store around here called Ulta, and my mom's good friend is high up in their corporate HR department. The Ulta by my mom's house had a girl working there who had several piercings (other than ears, like monroe, lip, etc) and also a chest piece that was sometimes seen if she wore low enough tops. Apparently someone had called my mom's friend to complain about said employee because "her appearance scared her children". She was fired. That just made me sad to be from suburbia. Those poor people need to get a life.

[Kozzy333]

I don't see what's so scary about tattoos and piercings. Usually I find that people who cut hair who have piercings, tattoos are usually good at what they do. That's just a generalization though.

[gabrielM]

shit. this thread blew up. lol.

[caveBEAR]

An informed opinion on how receptive the corporate world will be to tattoos in 20 years? If you didnt get caught up in that whole semantics bullshit earlier, I dont think you'd be at the point where you're too stubborn to admit that in 20 years, a small tattoo on the ankle, finger, wrist, forearm, upper arm, or foot wont be such a concern that it keeps people from working in the corporate world, which is exactly what I've been saying.

Is that what your point was? Oh, OK. You're wrong. Do you know what the word 'corporate' means? We're not talking Walgreens and McDonald's here...just because you're incorporated doesn't mean you are a 'corporate' job. No one's letting an executive walk into a office with SINK OR SWIM tattooed on his knuckles.

[zion the lion]

Is that what your point was? Oh, OK. You're wrong. Do you know what the word 'corporate' means? We're not talking Walgreens and McDonald's here...just because you're incorporated doesn't mean you are a 'corporate' job. No one's letting an executive walk into a office with SINK OR SWIM tattooed on his knuckles.

Did I say Walgreens or McDonalds? And did I say with the words SINK OR SWIM tattooed on someone's knuckles? No. Oh and did I say right now? Nope. I do know what the word corporate means. Did you even read that post at all? I fucking said, in 10 to 20 years, I'm not going to be passed up for a job just because I have a small tattoo on my finger (as on one small tattoo on one finger) or a small tattoo on my wrist, or tattoos on my feet, or hey, a small one on my forearm. In 10 to 20 years, I'd have a better chance of getting the job I want at NASA with the small tattoo on my finger, than I would now with that same tattoo. Really, how are you not getting it?

Dont be a condescending piece of shit by implying that having a corporate job to me means being a burger flipper.

[kbi the crowing]

Dont be a condescending piece of shit by implying that having a corporate job to me means being a burger flipper.

pretty sure that's not what he was saying...

[ted is lying]

Just saying I wouldn't want to go a business where the employees are covered in tattoos and piercings.

[kbi the crowing]

Just saying I wouldn't want to go a business where the employees are covered in tattoos and piercings.

why not?
& every business?

[ted is lying]

why not?
& every business?
Yes and yes.

[kbi the crowing]

Yes and yes.

cop out =P

[caveBEAR]

Did I say Walgreens or McDonalds? And did I say with the words SINK OR SWIM tattooed on someone's knuckles? No. Oh and did I say right now? Nope. I do know what the word corporate means. Did you even read that post at all? I fucking said, in 10 to 20 years, I'm not going to be passed up for a job just because I have a small tattoo on my finger (as on one small tattoo on one finger) or a small tattoo on my wrist, or tattoos on my feet, or hey, a small one on my forearm. In 10 to 20 years, I'd have a better chance of getting the job I want at NASA with the small tattoo on my finger, than I would now with that same tattoo. Really, how are you not getting it?

Dont be a condescending piece of shit by implying that having a corporate job to me means being a burger flipper.

I was trying to make sure you weren't considering anything that wasn't 'mom & pop' corporate. I understand the point you are trying to make. I still stand by mine. I think that in 20 years it will be just as hard for someone with visible tattoos to get a job in the 'wear a suit to work everyday' corporate world as it is today. Look at corporate workers in pictures from the 1910's. Aside from the fashion changes, nothing much else have. Tattoos may have become more acceptable in the general populace, but so has long hair and beards. However, you see neither of them in the corporate world today, and both of those became accepted years ago. If the job you want at NASA is someone sitting in the control room doing some job at a desk there, that's great. Your tattoo probably won't stand in the way at all. If you want a corporate job at NASA, one that has next to nothing to do with space exploration and everything to do with all the corporate aspects of NASA, then the tattoo will at least not help you, if not harm your chances of getting a position.

[five inch taint]

http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/foia/T...NAL_070621.pdf (http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/foia/TSA_MD_1100_73_2_FINAL_070621.pdf)

"(6) Tattoos: Tattoos must be covered at all times and not visible to the general public. Officers whose tattoos are visible when wearing a short sleeve shirt must wear a long sleeve shirt on duty. Officers with visible arm tattoos should order long sleeve shirts when placing their initial uniform orders. Exceptions may be granted by the FSD only when the tattoo is covered by an acceptable band that does not detract from the uniform."

TSA is not a corporation. It is a is a U.S. government law enforcement agency. The tattoo policy is pretty standard with in the goverment work force.

[rawesome]

Just saying I wouldn't want to go a business where the employees are covered in tattoos and piercings.
What? Why?

[zion the lion]

I was trying to make sure you weren't considering anything that wasn't 'mom & pop' corporate. I understand the point you are trying to make. I still stand by mine. I think that in 20 years it will be just as hard for someone with visible tattoos to get a job in the 'wear a suit to work everyday' corporate world as it is today. Look at corporate workers in pictures from the 1910's. Aside from the fashion changes, nothing much else have. Tattoos may have become more acceptable in the general populace, but so has long hair and beards. However, you see neither of them in the corporate world today, and both of those became accepted years ago. If the job you want at NASA is someone sitting in the control room doing some job at a desk there, that's great. Your tattoo probably won't stand in the way at all. If you want a corporate job at NASA, one that has next to nothing to do with space exploration and everything to do with all the corporate aspects of NASA, then the tattoo will at least not help you, if not harm your chances of getting a position.

I consider tattoos and fashion to be in the same category, and fashion has evolved quite a bit in the workplace. The general population has warmed up quite a bit to tattoos, a lot of people in generation X have tattoos, and a lot of those who dont have them, are at least okay with them, and our generation is extremely receptive of tattoos which is obvious. The reason there is even an expectation of a professional appearance in a workplace is for the clients. In 20 years, which generation is going to be the clientele?

In the late 60's women were wearing pants to work, when two decades earlier, it was a big deal that Katherine Hepburn was wearing pants. If something changes in our culture, it's going to change in the professional world too. I dont remember mentioning the corporate world in my original post, in fact, when I said 10 years, I was thinking of jobs more like the one with the TSA that guy was trying to get.

I'm not sure that long hair or beards are anymore well received now than they were 30 or 40 years ago.

[ted is lying]

What? Why?
Exactly.

[Broclee]

If you knew that you weren't allowed to wear t-shirts to work, no matter how expensive, fashionable, or artistic you may think they are, but all you owned were t-shirts, and you wore them into your interview, and told them that you only owned t-shirts, and they said they wouldn't hire you because you only owned/wore t-shirts, would that still be the companies fault?

It's not an exact parallel, but I feel like it's close enough to be the same concept.

[rawesome]

If you knew that you weren't allowed to wear t-shirts to work, no matter how expensive, fashionable, or artistic you may think they are, but all you owned were t-shirts, and you wore them into your interview, and told them that you only owned t-shirts, and they said they wouldn't hire you because you only owned/wore t-shirts, would that still be the companies fault?

It's not an exact parallel, but I feel like it's close enough to be the same concept.
You can just buy a new shirt, bro.

[Broclee]

You can just buy a new shirt, bro.
The concept of choice still applies, though. You choose to own all t-shirts, you choose to get a highly visible tattoo.

[rawesome]

The concept of choice still applies, though. You choose to own all t-shirts, you choose to get a highly visible tattoo.
Yeah but if someone becomes interested in a job that won't let them wear t-shirts they can buy new shirts. They can't just get their tattoos removed without, at least, a lot of expense. They really don't have an alternative choice.

[Broclee]

Yeah but if someone becomes interested in a job that won't let them wear t-shirts they can buy new shirts. They can't just get their tattoos removed without, at least, a lot of expense. They really don't have an alternative choice.
Anyone with any sort of common sense should realize that "nice jobs" (for lack of a better term here) in our country generally aren't going to let you have very visible tattoos. Think before making your choice. I'm getting a tattoo myself in about a month, but I'm also planning on going into teaching, so I'm putting in a location where it can easily be hidden for work. I have no issue with tattoos, nor do I think it's right for the tattoo "discrimination" to take place, but let's be realistic. If you don't realize that getting highly visible tattoos, especially very many/large ones, might hinder you if you're going for a job that values the "professional look" to a very high degree (or any sort of job, to play it safe), then I'd say you're delusional. Like it or not, it's the way things are in our society at this point. Might it change eventually? Possibly. But for now, if you want to play with the companies, you have to play by their rules. That's the way I see it.

[rawesome]

Anyone with any sort of common sense should realize that "nice jobs" (for lack of a better term here) in our country generally aren't going to let you have very visible tattoos. Think before making your choice. I'm getting a tattoo myself in about a month, but I'm also planning on going into teaching, so I'm putting in a location where it can easily be hidden for work. I have no issue with tattoos, nor do I think it's right for the tattoo "discrimination" to take place, but let's be realistic. If you don't realize that getting highly visible tattoos, especially very many/large ones, might hinder you if you're going for a job that values the "professional look" to a very high degree (or any sort of job, to play it safe), then I'd say you're delusional. Like it or not, it's the way things are in our society at this point. Might it change eventually? Possibly. But for now, if you want to play with the companies, you have to play by their rules. That's the way I see it.
Yeah, you're right, but I think the point of the thread is arguing the validity of tattoo discrimination, not whether or not it exists.

Also, I'm not getting a tattoo because of teaching, so I know how you feel.

[caveBEAR]

Yeah, you're right, but I think the point of the thread is arguing the validity of tattoo discrimination, not whether or not it exists.

Also, I'm not getting a tattoo because of teaching, so I know how you feel.

Meh, I have visable tattoos, and most teachers aren't stopped from teaching because of tattoos. Maybe a particular school will not hire you because the principle is a tight ass, but you can just go to another one and apply there.

[rawesome]

Meh, I have visable tattoos, and most teachers aren't stopped from teaching because of tattoos. Maybe a particular school will not hire you because the principle is a tight ass, but you can just go to another one and apply there.
There's a guy from Hawaii that's in the same education program as me who has a full sleeve of tribal designs. He doesn't seem too worried about it...

[caveBEAR]

There's a guy from Hawaii that's in the same education program as me who has a full sleeve of tribal designs. He doesn't seem too worried about it...

Yeah, if you want tattoos, don't let wanting to become a teacher hold you back. In almost all cases, principles have the sole hiring power, and it's based on their own discretion, so if you go to a school, apply for a job, and get hired/not hired based on things like tattoos, you'll have to work in that school with that principle, and the people that principle felt were 'pure' enough for the job. I'd rather work somewhere that you're accepted for who you are, so maybe that school accepts the kids for who they are.

[Villanova1L]

the worst part is that i called a free legal hotline in my area and they told me that what was done to me is not ilegal because a tattoo is an external marking. it's something i added to my body. i still feel cheated and i still feel bad about what has happened to me. there's acts in place to defend religion, race, sexual orientation and gender in the work field but tattoos and those who have them don't get the same respect. it's a shame.

Calling a hotline like this was a good idea, but I'd recommend calling someone a bit higher profile than just a free consultation line offered by a local firm that likely doesn't deal in free speech cases. Usually these lines are set up to get an idea of if you have a case that will win large amount of money, not if you have a case that can succeed on the merits.

If this is something you're serious about pursuing I'd call the ACLU or send them an e-mail detailing your situation. I'm not sure how often they get involved in hiring situations, but one involving the government seems up their alley.

[Broclee]

Yeah, if you want tattoos, don't let wanting to become a teacher hold you back. In almost all cases, principles have the sole hiring power, and it's based on their own discretion, so if you go to a school, apply for a job, and get hired/not hired based on things like tattoos, you'll have to work in that school with that principle, and the people that principle felt were 'pure' enough for the job. I'd rather work somewhere that you're accepted for who you are, so maybe that school accepts the kids for who they are.
I'm definitely with you on this. There are several teachers at my old high school who had visible tattoos, and they may have hidden them i the initial interview/first couple of months, but once you're in, and you've proven yourself as an asset to the school, they said that it's not as big of an issue.

[sarahsarahsarah]

Jack Bauer has tattoos...

that just made me laugh way too hard

[rawesome]

Yeah, if you want tattoos, don't let wanting to become a teacher hold you back. In almost all cases, principles have the sole hiring power, and it's based on their own discretion, so if you go to a school, apply for a job, and get hired/not hired based on things like tattoos, you'll have to work in that school with that principle, and the people that principle felt were 'pure' enough for the job. I'd rather work somewhere that you're accepted for who you are, so maybe that school accepts the kids for who they are.
I agree with you on the last sentence, but it doesn't always work that way. But, that being said, you make a good point. Maybe I will get one done the next time my friend asks.

[gabrielM]

If this is something you're serious about pursuing I'd call the ACLU or send them an e-mail detailing your situation. I'm not sure how often they get involved in hiring situations, but one involving the government seems up their alley.

pretty crazy u mention that to me. today a friend of mine told me to do the same. i'm definitely going to look into it.

[five inch taint]

(6) Tattoos: Tattoos must be covered at all times and not visible to the general public. Officers whose tattoos are visible when wearing a short sleeve shirt must wear a long sleeve shirt on duty. Officers with visible arm tattoos should order long sleeve shirts when placing their initial uniform orders. Exceptions may be granted by the FSD only when the tattoo is covered by an acceptable band that does not detract from the uniform.

http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/foia/TSA_MD_1100_73_2_FINAL_070621.pdf

[Brand-new-123]

(6) Tattoos: Tattoos must be covered at all times and not visible to the general public. Officers whose tattoos are visible when wearing a short sleeve shirt must wear a long sleeve shirt on duty. Officers with visible arm tattoos should order long sleeve shirts when placing their initial uniform orders. Exceptions may be granted by the FSD only when the tattoo is covered by an acceptable band that does not detract from the uniform.

http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/foia/TSA_MD_1100_73_2_FINAL_070621.pdf
How many times have you posted that in here?

[five inch taint]

How many times have you posted that in here?

2 times.

[xshady121]

I Don't think you have a legal leg to stand on.

Unless the courts feel like overriding precedent, they will side with TSA here.

I doubt you'd make it very far.

[gabrielM]

yea i know. but fuck it, maybe i can go down in history as the guy who fought his heart out to give tattood people the respect and opportunities they deserve.

with enough bitching, anything can change.

[xshady121]

yea i know. but fuck it, maybe i can go down in history as the guy who fought his heart out to give tattood people the respect and opportunities they deserve.

with enough bitching, anything can change.

Not true.



///

The laws are the laws. There is nothing in the constitution that could help you. Judges won't over rule precedent with out first taking a cue from the political elites.

Tattoos aren't anymore accepted in the work place than they ever were, and public opinion isn't on your side. Courts are hardly trend setters, they follow the waves of public opinion.

[Josh Weinstein]

pretty crazy u mention that to me. today a friend of mine told me to do the same. i'm definitely going to look into it.

The ACLU will defend anybody. They successfully defended the Westboro Baptist Church from protesting at American soldiers' funerals. If they can get that accomplished, they can certainly get you hired just because you have some silly ink design on your hands.

[Brand-new-123]

The ACLU will defend anybody. They successfully defended the Westboro Baptist Church from protesting at American soldiers' funerals. If they can get that accomplished, they can certainly get you hired just because you have some silly ink design on your hands.
Even the crazies have a right to free speech. Freedom goes both ways.

[xshady121]

The ACLU will defend anybody. They successfully defended the Westboro Baptist Church from protesting at American soldiers' funerals. If they can get that accomplished, they can certainly get you hired just because you have some silly ink design on your hands.

They will take cases they can win, and help change public policy.

That was protecting first amendment rights.

This isn't violating any rights.

They won't touch this. It would be a losing venture.

[atthegates]

Damn people will complain about the stupidest shit.

Life isn't fair. Deal with it.

Are you serious? So if you see injustices in the way society treats certain people, you should just get over it because "life is unfair"? There is a reason people are complaining about it; simply, it's discrimination. I understand that businesses won't hire those with tattoos because society has an unfavorable pre-conceived view of tattooed people and those businesses have the right to not hire for risk of losing business. My dispute is with the fact that you just accept the injustice and intolerance and sit there, letting society dictate you. You are a sad human being, have you fought for one worthy thing in your life? I can't imagine what a person with your mindset would be like during the oppression of blacks in this country, let alone any other marginalized minority group in history. Thankfully there are people who see these injustices and fight for a more open minded social consciousness.

[Broclee]

Are you serious? So if you see injustices in the way society treats certain people, you should just get over it because "life is unfair"? There is a reason people are complaining about it; simply, it's discrimination. I understand that businesses won't hire those with tattoos because society has an unfavorable pre-conceived view of tattooed people and those businesses have the right to not hire for risk of losing business. My dispute is with the fact that you just accept the injustice and intolerance and sit there, letting society dictate you. You are a sad human being, have you fought for one worthy thing in your life? I can't imagine what a person with your mindset would be like during the oppression of blacks in this country, let alone any other marginalized minority group in history. Thankfully there are people who see these injustices and fight for a more open minded social consciousness.
Sorry dude, but getting tattoo is a choice, and when you make that choice, you choose to take on the responsibilities that come with it.

[Villanova1L]

I Don't think you have a legal leg to stand on.

Unless the courts feel like overriding precedent, they will side with TSA here.

I doubt you'd make it very far.

How was your first year of law school?

A tattoo couldn't exist as expressive speech/conduct? I think he has a chance, although not a good one. Especially if he can show an effect on racial hiring due to this.

Obviously a stretch, but if we blindly followed precedent we'd still have slavery/segregated schools/sodomy laws and a heap of other terrible precedent.

[xshady121]

How was your first year of law school?

A tattoo couldn't exist as expressive speech/conduct? I think he has a chance, although not a good one. Especially if he can show an effect on racial hiring due to this.

Obviously a stretch, but if we blindly followed precedent we'd still have slavery/segregated schools/sodomy laws and a heap of other terrible precedent.

He was talking about possibly pursuing a case against the TSA, one which you and I know he wouldn't win, and any lawyer who tells him otherwise would be fooling both him and themselves. I was being blunt and telling him not to get his hopes up.

We both know that the eeoc says that:

The CSRA prohibits any employee who has authority to take certain personnel actions from discriminating for or against employees or applicants for employment on the bases of race, color, national origin, religion, sex, age or disability. It also provides that certain personnel actions can not be based on attributes or conduct that do not adversely affect employee performance, such as marital status and political affiliation. The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) has interpreted the prohibition of discrimination based on conduct to include discrimination based on sexual orientation. The CSRA also prohibits reprisal against federal employees or applicants for whistle-blowing, or for exercising an appeal, complaint, or grievance right. The CSRA is enforced by both the Office of Special Counsel (OSC) and the Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB).

Tattoos and other self created works of body art are left absent, because that is something you choose to do to yourself. They haven't ever been protected under first amendment rights (the courts have continued to rule that they aren't) and they will continue to, especially in the private sector. If this is going to change, it must first in the legislature.

But you're a law student, so I'm sure you knew all of this already.

[Villanova1L]

He was talking about possibly pursuing a case against the TSA, one which you and I know he wouldn't win, and any lawyer who tells him otherwise would be fooling both him and themselves. I was being blunt and telling him not to get his hopes up.

We both know that the eeoc says that:



Tattoos and other self created works of body art are left absent, because that is something you choose to do to yourself. They haven't ever been protected under first amendment rights (the courts have continued to rule that they aren't) and they will continue to, especially in the private sector. If this is going to change, it must first in the legislature.

But you're a law student, so I'm sure you knew all of this already.

I didn't/don't have the EEOC memorized unfortunately. I can, however, read the non-bolded sections of your quote namely this one:
It also provides that certain personnel actions can not be based on attributes or conduct that do not adversely affect employee performance, such as marital status and political affiliation.

I can see someone make an argument that claims tattoos are "attributes" that have no affect on employee performance. Color me shocked.

Where do you go to school?

[oh...rly]

Are you serious? So if you see injustices in the way society treats certain people, you should just get over it because "life is unfair"? There is a reason people are complaining about it; simply, it's discrimination. I understand that businesses won't hire those with tattoos because society has an unfavorable pre-conceived view of tattooed people and those businesses have the right to not hire for risk of losing business. My dispute is with the fact that you just accept the injustice and intolerance and sit there, letting society dictate you. You are a sad human being, have you fought for one worthy thing in your life? I can't imagine what a person with your mindset would be like during the oppression of blacks in this country, let alone any other marginalized minority group in history. Thankfully there are people who see these injustices and fight for a more open minded social consciousness.

Yeah dude, im so totally serious. Because its not an injustice. Its like you're fighting for segregation over here. A tattoo is a CHOICE. You don't have to get it.

And don't you dare compare the opression of blacks to your shit little cause. They should not even be brought up together.

And by the way. I have 3 tattoos. But i sleep very well at night knowing i could not get a job if those were in visible places.

Life is all about decisions, sometimes you make the right one, sometimes you don't.

[caveBEAR]

Yeah dude, im so totally serious. Because its not an injustice. Its like you're fighting for segregation over here. A tattoo is a CHOICE. You don't have to get it.

And don't you dare compare the opression of blacks to your shit little cause. They should not even be brought up together.

And by the way. I have 3 tattoos. But i sleep very well at night knowing i could not get a job if those were in visible places.

Life is all about decisions, sometimes you make the right one, sometimes you don't.

Exactly. Almost everyone seems to misunderstand what either 'rights' or 'choices' mean, but few people seem to understand what both mean.