best rotation in baseball?

[fcknazisympathy]

IMO, its the white sox with contreras, garland, buherle, garcia, and vazquez all being quality starting pitchers that can go 7-8ip always and give up minimal runs.

[Broken Parachute]

AL: White Sox
Beuhrle (8-4)
Contreras (7-0)
Garland (6-3)
Garcia (9-4)
Javier Vasquez (8-4)

NL: Cardinals
Marquis (9-5)
Suppan (6-4)
Carpenter (6-4)
Ponson (4-3)
Reyes (1-1)

[wessa]

AL: White Sox
NL: Mets


mets? are you kidding me, im a mets fan but i cannot in good conscience say that they have the best staff in the NL. Pedro and Glavine have been very good. Glavine started red hot, he has come back to earth but has had a lot of run support. I like trachsel as a solid three although most people dont like him. Then there is El Duque and Alay Soler, i dont think they can be counted on for anything. I might have to reconsider my view when bannister comes back. He was solid early on.

[Broken Parachute]

mets? are you kidding me, im a mets fan but i cannot in good conscience say that they have the best staff in the NL. Pedro and Glavine have been very good. Glavine started red hot, he has come back to earth but has had a lot of run support. I like trachsel as a solid three although most people dont like him. Then there is El Duque and Alay Soler, i dont think they can be counted on for anything. I might have to reconsider my view when bannister comes back. He was solid early on.
I changed it if you noticed, I put that before I thought about it.

[fcknazisympathy]

mets? are you kidding me, im a mets fan but i cannot in good conscience say that they have the best staff in the NL. Pedro and Glavine have been very good. Glavine started red hot, he has come back to earth but has had a lot of run support. I like trachsel as a solid three although most people dont like him. Then there is El Duque and Alay Soler, i dont think they can be counted on for anything. I might have to reconsider my view when bannister comes back. He was solid early on.

el duque is 3-1 as a met
soler is 3-1
trachsel sucks hes old and has back problems.

[GoWaitInTheCar]

White Sox or NY Mets

I think Minnesota has an underrated staff as well, but they aren't the best.

[Goodbye Forever]

Alay Soler is the Mets third best pitcher. They don't have the best rotation in baseball. The NL just makes them look good.

[fcknazisympathy]

White Sox or NY Mets

I think Minnesota has an underrated staff as well, but they aren't the best.

minnesota has nothing outside of santana and radke and maybe silva

[wessa]

el duque is 3-1 as a met
soler is 3-1
trachsel sucks hes old and has back problems.

el duque is 2-3 with a 5.40 era with the mets.
soler is 2-1 with a 3.32 era (respectable) but i dont trust him yet, he has had 6 major league starts and has been up and down.
I just don't think you can consider this team to have a top flight rotation. They have two big names and a couple of guys who get bailed out by good run support.

[Goodbye Forever]

White Sox or NY Mets

I think Minnesota has an underrated staff as well, but they aren't the best.

Their rotation is awful after Santana/Liriano. Radke is done, Carlos Silva is one of the worst starters is baseball, and Boof Bonser has pitched five unspectacular career games and one good one, and his name is Boof Bonser.

[fcknazisympathy]

el duque is 2-3 with a 5.40 era with the mets.
soler is 2-1 with a 3.32 era (respectable) but i dont trust him yet, he has had 6 major league starts and has been up and down.
I just don't think you can consider this team to have a top flight rotation. They have two big names and a couple of guys who get bailed out by good run support.

its still better than anything the NL has

[wessa]

its still better than anything the NL has

astros

oswalt
clemens

that's all that needs to be said

[xbrokendownx]

white sox or astros

whoever said the mets must be high

[Broken Parachute]

Cardinals, anyone?

[fcknazisympathy]

astros

oswalt
clemens

that's all that needs to be said
oswalt is 6-3 3.26era (only .07 away from solers) thats not that good hes also giving up more than a hit per inning
and clemens hasnt proven shit yet

[Broken Parachute]

Cardinals.

[fcknazisympathy]

Cardinals.

who just got swept by the tigers?

[xbrokendownx]

Cardinals.




the cardinals pitchers are bad

carpenter is great, yeah. marquis sucks, idk how he has 9 wins. mulder is horrible, and then what, jeff suppan? sidney ponson? cmon

[Goodbye Forever]

Los Tigres have a rotation that features not a single pitcher that has an ERA over 4.00.

[fcknazisympathy]

the cardinals pitchers are bad

carpenter is great, yeah. marquis sucks, idk how he has 9 wins. mulder is horrible, and then what, jeff suppan? sidney ponson? cmon

mulders on the DL
since when has ponson been reliable
marquis has an era over 5
suppan has an era over 5 and is 6-4
carpenter is having a less than stellar year at 6-4

please check yourself at the door before you try to argue noob

[fcknazisympathy]

Los Tigres have a rotation that features not a single pitcher that has an ERA over 4.00.

i agree bonderman and maroth are easily two of the best young pitchers in the game

[NetNerdsRevenge]

looking at this: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/teams/

I gotta say LAA and for the NL I gotta say Col or Sd.

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

minnesota has nothing outside of santana and radke and maybe silva

you know nothing about baseball

[fcknazisympathy]

you know nothing about baseball

who does minnesota have then

[StandMyBrothers]

who does minnesota have then
Liriano, Bonser, Baker had a few good outings till he was sent down

[bigmike]

Los Tigres have a rotation that features not a single pitcher that has an ERA over 4.00.
and it only took 19 posts for someone to actually mention this. impressive.

and this isn't me being a homer or anything. But right now, at this moment, detroit's rotation is the best.

[fcknazisympathy]

Liriano, Bonser, Baker had a few good outings till he was sent down

liriano is good but baker was horrible he was like 2-4
and bonser isnt that great either

[Goodbye Forever]

and it only took 19 posts for someone to actually mention this. impressive.

and this isn't me being a homer or anything. But right now, at this moment, detroit's rotation is the best.

I was considering holding out and waiting for you to say it, but things started getting a little rediculous.

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

if you tell me the twins have no one besides santana, and then you list two people not named Francisco Liriano, then i would have to say you know nothing about baseball.

if you wish to talk to someone on your level, go find that astros fan kid

[LeftWideOpen]

astros

oswalt
clemens

that's all that needs to be said

ohhhh im convinced. Last time I checked, Clemens has pitched 5 innings this season and even if one were to assume Clemens was going to be lights out, the question being asked is "what's the best rotation", not "whats the best 1-2 punch".

The best rotation in the league is Detroit though. Trying to argue otherwise is foolish because they are over half a point better then any other team and the closer certainly isn't contributing to that.

As for the NL, you can make a case for a bunch of teams because they have all been terrible. I'm going to go with the Dodgers though, w/ Penny and Lowe having great years to go along w/ the resurgence of Aaron Sele and the emergence of Billingsley.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

and it only took 19 posts for someone to actually mention this. impressive.

and this isn't me being a homer or anything. But right now, at this moment, detroit's rotation is the best.
I would say Detroit is pretty good, but it seems as though some of the success should be credited to the defense. Again, looking at the link I posted, Detroit has the best defense in the AL.

[bigmike]

I was considering holding out and waiting for you to say it, but things started getting a little rediculous.
exactly. maybe by seasons end they don't have the best rotation. but as of today, they do. hands down. case closed. the NL is a different story.


if you tell me the twins have no one besides santana, and then you list two people not named Francisco Liriano, then i would have to say you know nothing about baseball.

if you wish to talk to someone on your level, go find that astros fan kid
That astro's fan is a fucking tool. He believes that the Blue Jays have a better shot of hanging in the race than the tigers, despite the fact that the blue jays have two of their "top 3" pitchers on the DL, their bullpen is atrocious, and everyone not named roy halladay is almost as bad as the pen.

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

chicago and detroit are right up there neck and neck in my opinion.


and yes that astros fan is a tool, im sorry but for me to take you seriously as a baseball fan or with some amount of baseball knowledge you need to have heard of Francisco Liriano.

[bigmike]

I would say Detroit is pretty good, but it seems as though some of the success should be credited to the defense. Again, looking at the link I posted, Detroit has the best defense in the AL.
so you want to punish/degrade what the pitching's done because we put out a good defensive team?

[xbrokendownx]

mulders on the DL
since when has ponson been reliable
marquis has an era over 5
suppan has an era over 5 and is 6-4
carpenter is having a less than stellar year at 6-4

please check yourself at the door before you try to argue noob




i hope that wasnt directed at me, im on your side lol the cards rotation sucks

[Broken Parachute]

Anyone who says the Astros have the best rotation in the NL really is kidding themselves. Clemens has proved nothing so far and Oswalt is having a good year..but that's really it. I'm waitin for that Astros kid to tell us that Oswalt is going to win the Cy Young.

[Broken Parachute]

liriano is good but baker was horrible he was like 2-4
and bonser isnt that great either
You're joking...


..right?

[Cocaine&Whiskey]

The Cardinals rotation has the potential to be one of the best. Carpenter has an ERA under 3 and Marquis has a lot of potential. However, Carpenter hasn't been reliable and Marquis will probably never reach his potential. If Mulder gets healthy he could go on a good run as well, but there is another huge if. And Suppan is a decent innings eater but he is nothing special. Ponson has shown flashes of being really good this year and really bad, so we will have to see with him. He probably will be decent the rest of the year but once again, nothing great. Now Anthony Reyes has been nothing short of amazing this year, so him and Carpenter will have to hold up the rotation for a lot of the year, and that is alot of pressure to put on a young pitcher, just ask Rick Ankiel. So the Cardinals definitely don't have the best rotation but they could possibly be towards the top by the end of the year if they play to their potential. But that is something this Cardinals fan is not betting on, there are way to many ifs.

[wessa]

ohhhh im convinced. Last time I checked, Clemens has pitched 5 innings this season and even if one were to assume Clemens was going to be lights out, the question being asked is "what's the best rotation", not "whats the best 1-2 punch".

The best rotation in the league is Detroit though. Trying to argue otherwise is foolish because they are over half a point better then any other team and the closer certainly isn't contributing to that.

As for the NL, you can make a case for a bunch of teams because they have all been terrible. I'm going to go with the Dodgers though, w/ Penny and Lowe having great years to go along w/ the resurgence of Aaron Sele and the emergence of Billingsley.

that was basically for the NL, i just wrote that because somebody was claiming the mets had the best rotation in the NL, i am a mets fan and i dont even believe that is true. I know it's a one two punch, but it is the best one two punch in the majors and that counts for a lot. They also have pettite, who i have never been a huge fan of, but he has proven through the years that he can pitch.

But yes, for the whole league, i would say detroit.

[fcknazisympathy]

that was basically for the NL, i just wrote that because somebody was claiming the mets had the best rotation in the NL, i am a mets fan and i dont even believe that is true. I know it's a one two punch, but it is the best one two punch in the majors and that counts for a lot. They also have pettite, who i have never been a huge fan of, but he has proven through the years that he can pitch.

But yes, for the whole league, i would say detroit.

pettitte has sucked since he left the yankees

[Chriz2z]

Detroit

[jwizz928]

best rotation in baseball is kansas city and pittsburgh

[NetNerdsRevenge]

so you want to punish/degrade what the pitching's done because we put out a good defensive team?
When we analyze a pitching staff, shouldn't we also take into account the defense that plays behind them as well as the parks they play in? This is not to say the best defensive team cannot hold the best pitching staff, nor does the worst defensive team hold the best pitching staff. But, when asked the question of the best rotation in baseball, why should we let better defensive teams enhance the numbers? I thought we wanted to know how good the rotation was, not the whole team?

[LeftWideOpen]

When we analyze a pitching staff, shouldn't we also take into account the defense that plays behind them as well as the parks they play in? This is not to say the best defensive team cannot hold the best pitching staff, nor does the worst defensive team hold the best pitching staff. But, when asked the question of the best rotation in baseball, why should we let better defensive teams enhance the numbers? I thought we wanted to know how good the rotation was, not the whole team?

because it's just as easy to say the rotation makes the defense better by having the balls hit in the right places. pitching and defense are intertwined to such a degree that tryng to analyze defense and pitching separately and then hypothesize their effects on each other is impossible to do in an objective fashion. It isn't like hitting ..it can't be broken down completely as some sort of science. You can do it to some degree, but it can only go so far before you are just becoming so abstract that you are counter-productive.

[dubey]

Blue Jays

Josh Towers (1-9)

pretty sure he's still in the regular rotation too.

[jwizz928]

yeah im with you man, Josh Towers for MVP

[bigmike]

because it's just as easy to say the rotation makes the defense better by having the balls hit in the right places. pitching and defense are intertwined to such a degree that tryng to analyze defense and pitching separately and then hypothesize their effects on each other is impossible to do in an objective fashion. It isn't like hitting ..it can't be broken down completely as some sort of science. You can do it to some degree, but it can only go so far before you are just becoming so abstract that you are counter-productive.
exactly.

so the team with the best team era despite a closer's era who is about 6.50 which is skewing it to be higher than it actually is (3.54), the team with the most saves in the majors (28), allowing the 3rd fewest hits in the majors (633) in the 3rd most innings(693.1) in the majors, the fewest runs allowed in the majors (289), with the lowest team WHIP in the majors (1.24), with the 3rd lowest slugging % against (.388), with the 2nd lowest On Base % against (.309), with the lowest opponent batting average against (.243), with the 6th most holds in the majors (39), with the 19th best K/BB Ratio in the majors (2.13), and with the lowest H/9 IP allowed in the majors (8.22) all get's basically washed out because we play in comerica park and have a good defense behind our pitchers? No, it shouldn't. And it doesn't. Pitching and defense are hand in hand like LeftWideOpen said. You don't have a good staff with a shitty defense and vice versa. So to say the Tigers aren't the best based solely on their great defense thus far, is foolish. I normally like your outside-the-box thinking with all those stats you use, but this time it's just foolish.

[livethesounds]

Anyone who says the Astros have the best rotation in the NL really is kidding themselves. Clemens has proved nothing so far and Oswalt is having a good year..but that's really it. I'm waitin for that Astros kid to tell us that Oswalt is going to win the Cy Young.

Wont do that cause he most likley wont. but lets face it the NL is down this year, theres not that many really good teams besides the mets. of course they get most of their wins from their batting and not neccesarily from their pitching.
The Cardinals have been getting shelled on a regular basis for the past two weeks, its hard to say the cardinals. but if you say you cant put the astros rotation in the convorsation then YOUR kidding yourself, Oswalt hasent been amazing this year, but hes still been pretty damn good, Andy has been pretty inconsistant, but if he could string together a couple solid starts instead of good outindg bad outing like hes been doing he could get things going again. Brandon backe has been hurt most of the season and will be back right after the all star break, hes a firey guy and the astros need that in the roatation. Yes clemens hasent showed anything, but do you honestly think hes gonna be that much worse than last year? he had a hammy injury at the end of the year but has been pitching since...so why the hell is clemens not going to amoutn to anything for you guys??? Anyway if i had to pick the best roattions RIGHT NOW. id say this

AL: White Sox
NL: Reds

[bigmike]

Wont do that cause he most likley wont. but lets face it the NL is down this year, theres not that many really good teams besides the mets. of course they get most of their wins from their batting and not neccesarily from their pitching.
The Cardinals have been getting shelled on a regular basis for the past two weeks, its hard to say the cardinals. but if you say you cant put the astros rotation in the convorsation then YOUR kidding yourself, Oswalt hasent been amazing this year, but hes still been pretty damn good, Andy has been pretty inconsistant, but if he could string together a couple solid starts instead of good outindg bad outing like hes been doing he could get things going again. Brandon backe has been hurt most of the season and will be back right after the all star break, hes a firey guy and the astros need that in the roatation. Yes clemens hasent showed anything, but do you honestly think hes gonna be that much worse than last year? he had a hammy injury at the end of the year but has been pitching since...so why the hell is clemens not going to amoutn to anything for you guys??? Anyway if i had to pick the best roattions RIGHT NOW. id say this

AL: White Sox
NL: Reds
it's none of this "if andy could string together a few good starts" bull shit. He's not. he's inconsistent. Outside of Roy Oswalt, the rotation is mediocre, at best. And clemens does not drastically change that. You're the most unreasonably retarded, bias kid i've ever seen. The astros are no where close to the best rotation in the NL. they aren't in the discussion. fuck there not in the same area code as the top 3 in the NL.

and clemens will be worse than last year because HE HAD A CAREER YEAR LAST YEAR. of course he won't top that or come close to it. he's not bob gibson and this isn't 1968. No one's saying he won't be good. But he won't be enough to get the disastros to the playoffs or to vault them into the "best rotation" discussion. You're argument for why their rotation is the best is: If andy pettitte turns around and when brandon backe comes back.... that's retarded.

If the pirates young pitchers suddenly morph into about 5 Bob Gibson's then they'd be in the discussion too. but it's not happening.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

because it's just as easy to say the rotation makes the defense better by having the balls hit in the right places. pitching and defense are intertwined to such a degree that tryng to analyze defense and pitching separately and then hypothesize their effects on each other is impossible to do in an objective fashion. It isn't like hitting ..it can't be broken down completely as some sort of science. You can do it to some degree, but it can only go so far before you are just becoming so abstract that you are counter-productive.
A pitcher can place the ball wherever he wants, but if the defense doesn't make the play it looks bad for both parties. Its much easier to say (and prove) that the defense is good than say the pitchers make hitters hit it to a certain area. Like it or not, defense does effect a pitchers stats. Its quite easily to analyze it differently because they have made statistics which separate the two. FIP for pitchers and DER for defense. Those are two stats which I looked at when I posted in this thread.

exactly.
you dont like it because this time its the tigers. When you post stats such as hits, era, runs allowed, etc. you have to account for defense. This is not to say the Tigers rotation is terrible, but you also have to acknowledge they pitch infront of a good defense. I really dont like saves and holds because a guy can walk the bases loaded, but still revive a hold or save because he didn't give up a run, or didn't let the other team go ahead. Its not the say he had a terrible outing, he may have struck the side out, but you cannot look past the 3 walks. I mean, dont get me wrong, of all the playoff contending teams, I would take the Tigers over anyone (maybe no the A's). However, if you look at the link I posted, you'll see the tigers defense is pretty damn good. You should be proud of this.....they have pitching and defense. That'll get them a long ways if they make it to October.

and by the way, thank you for complementing me on my thinking. Most people think im fucking nuts, which may be true.

[livethesounds]

it's none of this "if andy could string together a few good starts" bull shit. He's not. he's inconsistent. Outside of Roy Oswalt, the rotation is mediocre, at best. And clemens does not drastically change that. You're the most unreasonably retarded, bias kid i've ever seen. The astros are no where close to the best rotation in the NL. they aren't in the discussion. fuck there not in the same area code as the top 3 in the NL.

and clemens will be worse than last year because HE HAD A CAREER YEAR LAST YEAR. of course he won't top that or come close to it. he's not bob gibson and this isn't 1968. No one's saying he won't be good. But he won't be enough to get the disastros to the playoffs or to vault them into the "best rotation" discussion. You're argument for why their rotation is the best is: If andy pettitte turns around and when brandon backe comes back.... that's retarded.

If the pirates young pitchers suddenly morph into about 5 Bob Gibson's then they'd be in the discussion too. but it's not happening.

so whats your top two with all your reasons. im sick of you dudes shitting on everything i say, i have a south texas/ houston POV, you have a detroit POV damn near everyone else has a Boston/ New England point of view. get the fuck over it, everybody likes to talk about the redsox in the baseball forum, and they are pretty biased, all i say is that the astros should be at least in the convorsation I NEVER SAID THEY WERE THE BEST. and if no pitchers has the ability to make ajustments and get better than this year will be a really shitty year for MLB.

[bigmike]

A pitcher can place the ball wherever he wants, but if the defense doesn't make the play it looks bad for both parties. Its much easier to say (and prove) that the defense is good than say the pitchers make hitters hit it to a certain area. Like it or not, defense does effect a pitchers stats. Its quite easily to analyze it differently because they have made statistics which separate the two. FIP for pitchers and DER for defense. Those are two stats which I looked at when I posted in this thread.


you dont like it because this time its the tigers. When you post stats such as hits, era, runs allowed, etc. you have to account for defense. This is not to say the Tigers rotation is terrible, but you also have to acknowledge they pitch infront of a good defense. I really dont like saves and holds because a guy can walk the bases loaded, but still revive a hold or save because he didn't give up a run, or didn't let the other team go ahead. Its not the say he had a terrible outing, he may have struck the side out, but you cannot look past the 3 walks. I mean, dont get me wrong, of all the playoff contending teams, I would take the Tigers over anyone (maybe no the A's). However, if you look at the link I posted, you'll see the tigers defense is pretty damn good. You should be proud of this.....they have pitching and defense. That'll get them a long ways if they make it to October.

and by the way, thank you for complementing me on my thinking. Most people think im fucking nuts, which may be true.
"You don't like it because this time its the tigers" come on now. I'm basically always looking for a reason to why my teams will fail. everyone should know this. So it's not a favorite team bias or anything.

And i understand your point, but how can you not say the defense is good because the pitching staff is so dominant?

[LeftWideOpen]

so whats your top two with all your reasons. im sick of you dudes shitting on everything i say, i have a south texas/ houston POV, you have a detroit POV damn near everyone else has a Boston/ New England point of view. get the fuck over it, everybody likes to talk about the redsox in the baseball forum, and they are pretty biased, all i say is that the astros should be at least in the convorsation I NEVER SAID THEY WERE THE BEST. and if no pitchers has the ability to make ajustments and get better than this year will be a really shitty year for MLB.

mmhmm, okay, whatever you say.

[bigmike]

so whats your top two with all your reasons. im sick of you dudes shitting on everything i say, i have a south texas/ houston POV, you have a detroit POV damn near everyone else has a Boston/ New England point of view. get the fuck over it, everybody likes to talk about the redsox in the baseball forum, and they are pretty biased, all i say is that the astros should be at least in the convorsation I NEVER SAID THEY WERE THE BEST. and if no pitchers has the ability to make ajustments and get better than this year will be a really shitty year for MLB.
having a rotation with 2 good guys does not put you into the best rotation discussion. sorry, it just doesn't happen. And I'm actually the least bias kid here when it comes to my favorite teams.

But you're basing your argument for the houston to have the best on the fact that you think clemens will have a better year this year than last year, and that pettitte will turn it around into an all star pitcher, and a guy that's been hurt all year to come back and regain playoff type success/form. that is not the makings of the best rotation. I mean, come on, you've got Wandy Rodriguez heading out there once every 5 days. please.

AL: Tigers.
NL: I'm going to take the Dodgers with Penny, Lowe, and the resurgence of Aaron Sele.

[livethesounds]

having a rotation with 2 good guys does not put you into the best rotation discussion. sorry, it just doesn't happen. And I'm actually the least bias kid here when it comes to my favorite teams.

But you're basing your argument for the houston to have the best on the fact that you think clemens will have a better year this year than last year, and that pettitte will turn it around into an all star pitcher, and a guy that's been hurt all year to come back and regain playoff type success/form. that is not the makings of the best rotation. I mean, come on, you've got Wandy Rodriguez heading out there once every 5 days. please.

AL: Tigers.
NL: I'm going to take the Dodgers with Penny, Lowe, and the resurgence of Aaron Sele.

DUDE THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT. LISTEN TO ME THIS TIME AND TRY NOT TO MAKE UP WHATEVER YOU WANT WHEN YOU REPLY.
I NEVER based this on the fact that I think clemens is going to have a better year than last year, but based on what happend last year is it not reasonable to say that he could have at least a decent or good year?? is it not reasonable to say that he could get at least 10 wins, and help this team out??
I NEVER said pettite will turn it around into an all star pitcher, i jut know what hes capable of and that not sucking on a night to night basis. sure maybe hes lost something, but there have been plenty of games when hes been great, and the next game he struggles, but can he not turn things around and have a decent year? is that far too much to fathom???

[bigmike]

DUDE THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT. LISTEN TO ME THIS TIME AND TRY NOT TO MAKE UP WHATEVER YOU WANT WHEN YOU REPLY.
I NEVER based this on the fact that I think clemens is going to have a better year than last year, but based on what happend last year is it not reasonable to say that he could have at least a decent or good year?? is it not reasonable to say that he could get at least 10 wins, and help this team out??
I NEVER said pettite will turn it around into an all star pitcher, i jut know what hes capable of and that not sucking on a night to night basis. sure maybe hes lost something, but there have been plenty of games when hes been great, and the next game he struggles, but can he not turn things around and have a decent year? is that far too much to fathom???
and all those questions are exactly why the astros aren't in the discussion for the best rotation.

this isn't some personal attack, but there is nothing that you've said that even makes me think the astros are in the question. right now, they've got Oswalt pitching outstanding, a clemens who has to slow down eventually. i mean he is like what 44 or 45? pettitte who has been inconsistent since leaving the yankees a guy named Wandy Rodriguez who we shelled last night, and taylor buchholz who is young and inconsistent. this doesn't sound like a team near the discussion of best rotation. i'm sorry, they just aren't there in my book.

[livethesounds]

and all those questions are exactly why the astros aren't in the discussion for the best rotation.

this isn't some personal attack, but there is nothing that you've said that even makes me think the astros are in the question. right now, they've got Oswalt pitching outstanding, a clemens who has to slow down eventually. i mean he is like what 44 or 45? pettitte who has been inconsistent since leaving the yankees a guy named Wandy Rodriguez who we shelled last night, and taylor buchholz who is young and inconsistent. this doesn't sound like a team near the discussion of best rotation. i'm sorry, they just aren't there in my book.

well while we argue this, well see what happends tonight...i belive its robertson vs clemens. see what happends.

[bigmike]

well while we argue this, well see what happends tonight...i belive its robertson vs clemens. see what happends.
i wouldn't expect more than 6 innings out of roger. actually, if i were an astros fan, that'd be all i want out of him because i wouldn't want him to get hurt in just his 5th start in pro ball this year.

Plus, when he was with NY we tended to beat him up kind of. so we'll see. outside of berkman, your lineup really doesn't offer up much to be afraid of, though. and your bullpen is a bit over-extended from the white sox series.

[livethesounds]

i wouldn't expect more than 6 innings out of roger. actually, if i were an astros fan, that'd be all i want out of him because i wouldn't want him to get hurt in just his 5th start in pro ball this year.

Plus, when he was with NY we tended to beat him up kind of. so we'll see. outside of berkman, your lineup really doesn't offer up much to be afraid of, though. and your bullpen is a bit over-extended from the white sox series.

Yea, its not gonna be pretty if we have to get into the bullpen. They seem pretty fatigued, and gave up a chance to come from behind last night. I disagree with you about the anybody other than berkman statement though. other players have stepped up latley, ive said it before lamb and burke have been on fire and with them immideatley in front of berkman in the lineup = runs.
heres how i can tell everybody here is an AL fan, they can only seem to recall Clemens as a yankee, same with pettite

[bigmike]

Yea, its not gonna be pretty if we have to get into the bullpen. They seem pretty fatigued, and gave up a chance to come from behind last night. I disagree with you about the anybody other than berkman statement though. other players have stepped up latley, ive said it before lamb and burke have been on fire and with them immideatley in front of berkman in the lineup = runs.
heres how i can tell everybody here is an AL fan, they can only seem to recall Clemens as a yankee, same with pettite
yes, i know. i meant as a run producing threat, berkman's the only one i'm concerned with. he drove in their 1st 2 runs last night before getting ejected with phil garner, which was a lot of bullshit.

and i'm not just an AL fan because i mentioned clemens. I mentioned him being with the yankees because that's the last time we saw him in detroit, and the last 2 years there we hit him pretty hard. that's the only reason. it has nothing to do with league affiliation.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

And i understand your point, but how can you not say the defense is good because the pitching staff is so dominant?
Because pitching has a lesser effect on defense than defense has on pitching. Ya, if you have filthy stuff youre probably going to induce slow ground balls and weak pop ups more than usual, but as far as I know, that cannot be measured accurately.

Again, I'm not saying the rotation is not as good as people say, but I dont think its the best in the AL.

[bigmike]

Because pitching has a lesser effect on defense than defense has on pitching. Ya, if you have filthy stuff youre probably going to induce slow ground balls and weak pop ups more than usual, but as far as I know, that cannot be measured accurately.

Again, I'm not saying the rotation is not as good as people say, but I dont think its the best in the AL.
I know. I'm just saying that I think it's way too tied together to dismiss a staff because of it's team defense.

so, agree to disagree.

[NetNerdsRevenge]

fair enough.

[mikeford]

oh by the way, i was thinking about this when i was mowing the lawn today

the best rotation in the NL might be, (if healthy... big IF, i know)... The Cubs.

but they'd actually need Prior and Wood to pitch games and you know, not be on the DL for seasons at a time.

[bigmike]

oh by the way, i was thinking about this when i was mowing the lawn today

the best rotation in the NL might be, (if healthy... big IF, i know)... The Cubs.

but they'd actually need Prior and Wood to pitch games and you know, not be on the DL for seasons at a time.
yeah. i agree with this. if completely healthy, wood, prior, zambrano are thes best 1-2-3 in baseball, hands down, imo.

[mikeford]

of course, that will never happen because kerry wood cant throw more than 60 pitches anymore.

[bigmike]

of course, that will never happen because kerry wood cant throw more than 60 pitches anymore.
if he could stay healthy long enough to experiment him as the closer or set up guy again, i'd really like to see that. he's still got unreal stuff.

[mikeford]

well everything i've read about him... he doesn't wanna be a closer. he still thinks he can start. he's really good for 60 pitches. he hits that and its midnight, and turns back into a pumpkin.

[bigmike]

well everything i've read about him... he doesn't wanna be a closer. he still thinks he can start. he's really good for 60 pitches. he hits that and its midnight, and turns back into a pumpkin.
haha. wow. he really thinks he can start still? If i were him i'd be more concerned with staying in the big leagues anyway possible -- even if that means closing or being a set up guy.

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

his rookie season, that game against the astros with 20 k's was one of the most amazing baseball performances ive ever seen.

[bigmike]

the more he get's hurt, the more i'm thinking those rumors of stories of when he was in High school and his coach would start him and let him finish both games of the double-headers, might be true.

[TheDeekay]

If they stayed healthy the Blue Jays (minus Josh Towers) would have a really good rotation. Halladay, Burnett, Lilly, Chacin and Jansen would make a fairly good rotation if they could all be healthy.
The White Sox probably have the best in the majors right now though.

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

if if if if if if if if if if if if if, life isnt about ifs. if my dick were 5 inches longer id walk around all day in bike shorts.

[histrionics22]

damn near everyone else has a Boston/ New England point of view..

Yet notice how none of them mentioned the Sox in this discussion. Maybe you could learn something.

[xbrokendownx]

i change my pick.



the tigers pitching is fucking filthy

[livethesounds]

i change my pick.



the tigers pitching is fucking filthy

yea, i picked the white sox, and they are definintly rigt there with them but id have to say detroit now, i dont know how all thos rookies keep pitching lights out but they do. that team dosent have any real superstars besides pudge and they are rolling teams. i said before, they remind me of the 02 marlins, well see what happens.

[bigmike]

yea, i picked the white sox, and they are definintly rigt there with them but id have to say detroit now, i dont know how all thos rookies keep pitching lights out but they do. that team dosent have any real superstars besides pudge and they are rolling teams. i said before, they remind me of the 02 marlins, well see what happens.
I take back anything bad i've said about your rotation because it's a moot point until your offense can actually hit a baseball.

We shut the disastros out for the last 20 innings of the series (including back to back shutouts) and outscored them 19-4 in the 3 game set.

Your lack of offense is a bigger problem than your pitching.

[Ratherbedead22]

the white sox. and im not being biased.

detroit is right behind them.

[DaveFeelsRight]

woot go mickey