Nettn07
01/30/10, 06:18 AM
I tried searching for a thread like this, but I couldn't find it. Basically I need help from all of you guys. I study music in Norway, and in not very long I have to do a presentation about the music business/industry. We all know the music business is changing, so I need your opinion on a few things. The core of what I'm going to talk about in the presentation is how to survive/succeed in the music business at any level.
So here's the questions;
- Is music through stream programs a good idea? (Programs like Spotify which lets you steam music for free, and if you want, buy the music) or does it kill the record sales even more?
- Indie vs major label? And why?
- What do you think has to be done to "save" the industry? Difficult question yes, but some genius has to give us the answer sometime..
- More and more bands are basically giving away their music for free, or they let the fans decide what to pay for the record. And then instead they rely on merch sales and ticket sales. Is that enough for a band on an indie label (with at least some recognition) to make a living out of? Will they even make enough money to do another album? How about major label bands? Is that a good way to go about it for them?
- Ok, last question and that's really the core of what I'm supposed to talk about in the presentation, and I guess it's kind of related to the previous question: I know there's a lot of people in bands on indie labels here that are doing well. So how does your band survive, and what do you guys do to get you music heard? (I guess anyone can answer this as long as your in a band and are serious about what you're doing. Record deal or no record deal)
- Any other opinion you want to add about all of this??
I would really appreciate all input you could give me. I have to stand in front of my class and talk about this for an hour.
Thanks in advance :)
Jeanette
JordanBuell
01/30/10, 08:03 AM
I tried searching for a thread like this, but I couldn't find it. Basically I need help from all of you guys. I study music in Norway, and in not very long I have to do a presentation about the music business/industry. We all know the music business is changing, so I need your opinion on a few things. The core of what I'm going to talk about in the presentation is how to survive/succeed in the music business at any level.
So here's the questions;
- Is music through stream programs a good idea? (Programs like Spotify which lets you steam music for free, and if you want, buy the music) or does it kill the record sales even more?
I think the idea is fine. In my opinion it is nothing more than the evolution of the radio. There are ways for websites and record labels to make money off of streaming music. As far as it killing record sales? It is possible, but if streaming music isnt hurting record sales then something else would. The time in history when a person would go out and purchase a physical album is gone, it is up to the "industry" to adapt and find a new way to make money.
- Indie vs major label? And why?
I perfer indie because indie labels treat the artists better. They are less in it for the money as the big 4 and are more likely to support an artist that has a mediocre release (they are exceptions on both sides to this though)
- What do you think has to be done to "save" the industry? Difficult question yes, but some genius has to give us the answer sometime..
Well this one is difficult.... i would say that to say the industry there needs to be a dynamic shift in the way we think about music as a product it self (relates to the question below)
- More and more bands are basically giving away their music for free, or they let the fans decide what to pay for the record. And then instead they rely on merch sales and ticket sales. Is that enough for a band on an indie label (with at least some recognition) to make a living out of? Will they even make enough money to do another album? How about major label bands? Is that a good way to go about it for them?
Is it enough for a band on an indie label? yes and no. depends on how you price tickets and merch and so on. Also when a band is younger and not that well heard i believe they should be doing stuff like giving away there music for free (a single at least) or have a pay for model. That way it gets the bands name out there and increases ticket/merch sales. It is also easier for an indie/scene band to pull this off because these bands tend to have a more dedicated fan base (IMO)
Major Label? Give away a single as a way of promotion, hope they buy the CD. It is much tougher for a major label though bc of the higher cost it takes for high profile names that dont really need alot of word of mouth exposure. Major labels are a tough game because they need a complete shake up in order to be at the top of their game again.
- Ok, last question and that's really the core of what I'm supposed to talk about in the presentation, and I guess it's kind of related to the previous question: I know there's a lot of people in bands on indie labels here that are doing well. So how does your band survive, and what do you guys do to get you music heard? (I guess anyone can answer this as long as your in a band and are serious about what you're doing. Record deal or no record deal)
Sorry not in a band
- Any other opinion you want to add about all of this??
I would really appreciate all input you could give me. I have to stand in front of my class and talk about this for an hour.
Thanks in advance :)
Jeanette
read up in quote...
I tried searching for a thread like this, but I couldn't find it. Basically I need help from all of you guys. I study music in Norway, and in not very long I have to do a presentation about the music business/industry. We all know the music business is changing, so I need your opinion on a few things. The core of what I'm going to talk about in the presentation is how to survive/succeed in the music business at any level.
So here's the questions;
- Is music through stream programs a good idea? (Programs like Spotify which lets you steam music for free, and if you want, buy the music) or does it kill the record sales even more?
- Indie vs major label? And why?
- What do you think has to be done to "save" the industry? Difficult question yes, but some genius has to give us the answer sometime..
- More and more bands are basically giving away their music for free, or they let the fans decide what to pay for the record. And then instead they rely on merch sales and ticket sales. Is that enough for a band on an indie label (with at least some recognition) to make a living out of? Will they even make enough money to do another album? How about major label bands? Is that a good way to go about it for them?
- Ok, last question and that's really the core of what I'm supposed to talk about in the presentation, and I guess it's kind of related to the previous question: I know there's a lot of people in bands on indie labels here that are doing well. So how does your band survive, and what do you guys do to get you music heard? (I guess anyone can answer this as long as your in a band and are serious about what you're doing. Record deal or no record deal)
- Any other opinion you want to add about all of this??
I would really appreciate all input you could give me. I have to stand in front of my class and talk about this for an hour.
Thanks in advance :)
Jeanette
I will answer your questions, i played in bands and toured for 8 years, both before and after the internet explosion
- Is music through stream programs a good idea? (Programs like Spotify which lets you steam music for free, and if you want, buy the music) or does it kill the record sales even more?
Do anything you can to get your music out there. The more people know it, the better. You have to go into it these days knowing your music will essentially be given away. One way to do it is give out samplers of 2-3 songs..and put the rest on itunes to buy, and stream some other songs that arent on the sampler. If you are on tour and want to get crazy, bring and ipod to a mall and talk to kids, its what we did and it worked out pretty well. walking away with 200 dollars before the show even started wasnt a bad feeling at all.
- Indie vs major label? And why?
Depends on the label and what they are gonna do for you. The industry on the whole can't recover itself from what has been happening the past few years. Majors are always changing figureheads and bosses, indies are popping up, essentially front bands money. If you have the capital to do it yourself, do it. Ask other bands what they are doing. Also depends on what each member of the band is fluent in. If one is good at internet stuff, one is good at talking to people and trying to get interviews, etc, you see where I am doing. Less Than Jake did everything themselves and split all the tasks up accordingly.
- What do you think has to be done to "save" the industry? Difficult question yes, but some genius has to give us the answer sometime..
I think ideas like rhapsody and pay per monthly services are a good start. I think labels should just start pressing more records again. It seems to be the trend amongst the younger people. I have always been into it, but more and more stuff is coming out on vinyl and people think its "new".
- More and more bands are basically giving away their music for free, or they let the fans decide what to pay for the record. And then instead they rely on merch sales and ticket sales. Is that enough for a band on an indie label (with at least some recognition) to make a living out of? Will they even make enough money to do another album? How about major label bands? Is that a good way to go about it for them?
I guess that goes up to the orginal answer. Get your music out there, and try an get what you can in merch and concert garuntees, if you can even get that. Having fans decide what they want to pay may work. The fanbase radiohead and NIN have as opposed to a band on an indie is drastically different, thus, the chances of making money on that may be different. Alot of the younger crowd may also not have the 8-10 to pay for a download of a band they like. A person that works in a law firm may love radiohead and have no problem throwing the 10 bucks down, but the kid that loves Wonder Years may not be able to afford the DL, even though the appreciation on the Wonder Years fan is far greater. As far as recording, the technology to record at home is so good most bands are going that route. What bands SHOULD do is put out a jar at their merch table accepting donations if you downloaded the record. All that money goes DIRECTLY to the band. Even if someone gives them 1-5 dollars, it can all add up with the other revenue that could come in.
- Ok, last question and that's really the core of what I'm supposed to talk about in the presentation, and I guess it's kind of related to the previous question: I know there's a lot of people in bands on indie labels here that are doing well. So how does your band survive, and what do you guys do to get you music heard? (I guess anyone can answer this as long as your in a band and are serious about what you're doing. Record deal or no record deal)
Again, we did the sampler/stream/itunes. Before that, we actually had pressed cds (this was 2003-2004, so the internet wasnt as free then). We walked around with discmans all over malls and towns we were in and tried to find like minded individuals that would be into what we were doing. We would try to get 10, and take no less than 5. If someone didnt have the money, then we told them we would give them a cd if they got someone else to buy one (if their friend bought one for 10, we stll made out, as it cost 97 cents to make a full color professional cd.) If that didn't pan out, if they paid to get to the show and brought a friend to the show, we would hook them up with a CD. We did anything we could to make sure that we didn't leave the conversation without a positive result (sales major). either I was going to sell that person on getting to give us money somehow, or that person was gonna sell me on reasons they couldn't. We generally won, and i was able to make a living on tour for a summer or 2.
- Any other opinion you want to add about all of this??
If you have any questions or want to get crazy, PM me as I could talk all day about this stuff.
I would really appreciate all input you could give me. I have to stand in front of my class and talk about this for an hour.
Thanks in advance :)
Jeanette
theguy77
01/30/10, 05:12 PM
if anyone who is more informed on any of this information than me would like to correct segments of this post, feel free. in fact, i welcome it, im always trying to learn more about what i hope can be my future career.
- Is music through stream programs a good idea? (Programs like Spotify which lets you steam music for free, and if you want, buy the music) or does it kill the record sales even more?
as someone else said, its just an evolution of the radio. people who are just going to sample your music are going to find a way to do that no matter what; for the whole decade of the 00's, since the inception of napster, there has always been a solid discrepancy between those who are devoted to supporting bands and owning full albums, and those who just go for free samples. i wouldn't worry about that too much because its actually much easier to salvage SOME value out of this form of exposure as a band (especially considering they have the option to purchase if they want) than it is when someone just finds a link to your album on mediafire/rapidshare/megaupload/sendspace/whatever, which would happen with or without the existence of streaming programs (in fact it probably happens less since streaming programs are more expedient for music listeners to use.)
- Indie vs major label? And why?
short answer: i'd really only go for a major label if my band is already really well known.
now here's all the specifics of why:
an indie label by nature is more concerned about trying to make SOME profit (even a small one) out of unabridged, organic quality music, whereas a major label wants to maximize profits and will comprimise/change the music at will so that it fits in with what they KNOW is making money at the time. therefore, if an indie label thinks a band makes good music, they're going to let that band do whatever they want regardless how unknown/unproven their music style is, and will do whatever they can to promote said band and make a little bit of money without changing their music. if they can't make a profit, then they have to drop you no matter what, but if they can make even a small profit without changing your sound, that's good enough for them and they'll continue on promoting you and you can continue on making the music that makes you happy. since they don't attempt to maximize profits to extremes and do support small-time bands with no guarantees other than quality music, they have much less leverage in the music world -- less money to give you (some indie labels can barely even offer advances for recording), less influence on the media to promote you with, etc. but at least you have full creative freedom, and if your music really is good enough, it will speak for itself and you'll slowly but surely gain enough of a fanbase so that you can live off of tours and not have to work a job on the side. in most cases, an indie label will give you a higher percentage of your sales profits than a major label as well. don't expect to be rich off of an indie label though -- this is mostly for people who have a real passion for making music and are happy to do it for a living even if it means they're broke all the time.
however, if a major label comes across a band that doesnt play mainstream-style music, unless they have proven that they can sell gold and/or platinum records with their own music style, the label is going to intervene with their top dollar producers and say "we know what works and what sells in the industry. either you let us make your music sound like the other music that's making us money, or there's no reason to promote you because we have no indication that your sales will be worth the investment." in terms of the "business", which is the sole focus of most major labels, it doesn't matter how well your band makes psychedelic music, psychedelic music is not popular and thus is not a secure or worthwhile investment, it's not worth the expense or effort of trying to promote it if its not something the majority of people out there would listen to. sometimes even after an album is released with a sound that the label is comfortable with, if it's not selling as well as they thought it would, they'll stop promoting you anyway.
think about the consequences: if you have a contract with a major label (or any label for that matter), technically they own the rights to your music (which rights they own or dont own is usually specified in the fine print). unless there's a clause in the contract that allows you to get them back under certain circumstances, you're basically trapped. so if they stop promoting/printing your record and no one knows about it, then that record is lost because there is no way you can break ties with that label and promote it on your own or re-release it because it belongs to them. the label can (and usually does) also decide to stop putting you on tours, and since they usually own most or all of the profits from the albums themselves, and tour/merch is your only source of income, this means they can make it so that you are seeing no money whatsoever. so basically, if you're under a contract with a major label that doesn't trust your own music style, your options are either "make a dishonest pop record" (hence why lots of bands "sell out" once they sign to major labels) or "lose your next record forever, and probably have to quit your music career for awhile and get a job because you wont get to make any money off of your music from that record, nor will you have the money or label support to record ANOTHER record afterward". both of those options are awful for any honest musician who wants to make a living off of their art -- either sell out; or quit for awhile, lose the rights to a huge piece of your work, and have a hard time starting up your music career again.
the latter happened to straylight run with their album The Needles The Space. that album was a creative departure from the piano-ballad pop sound they previously made, and from the time that album was released, Universal Records refused to give it ample promotion because they didn't think it would sell. the album flopped, much of their old fanbase lost interest in the band (in part because they were closed-minded to the change in sound, and in part because the lack of promotion caused some of the more casual fans to basically forget about straylight run), and also due to lack of promotion they gained very little new fanbase. now john nolan is struggling, trying to get his music career back up off the ground after losing the rights to his last full-length record due to Universal Records's ownership, and the fact that they stopped promoting the record and stopped putting him on tours meant that he had no income from his music for awhile. he's recently signed back onto an indie label and he's either released or is soon to release a solo album, but it'll be awhile before his music career has any security or stability again. oh and by the way, Universal Records STILL owns The Needles The Space, so only they have the authority to press more copies of it (probably won't happen) and not any of the straylight run members, and they also probably couldn't sell any merch related to that album without being sued by the label. another example: jawbreaker's album Dear You went out of print in the mid-90s because geffen records stopped pressing it after it failed to sell as well as they hoped. they broke up a year later despite having almost a cult following in communities of punk fans. it took the members of jawbreaker nearly 10 years to re-acquire the rights to their own album so that they could re-release it, and the only reason blake schwarzenbach is able to continue to support himself with a music career 14 years after his original and most well-respected band broke up, is because jawbreaker's fanbase is just that dedicated to him.
the ONLY way a major label will let you have creative freedom in the first place to make whatever music style you want, is if you have ALREADY proven that your sound sells and that you already have a massive fanbase for that music style -- then they have a guarantee that your music is worth the investment. example: radiohead was signed to EMI records for their post-grunge/britpop album Pablo Honey. they wanted to do some creative things with their next record but the label forced them to keep more of a straight rock sound on The Bends because the things they wanted to do were very unproven in a mainstream market. after that album also did well commercially, however, they were given a bit more freedom. OK Computer was a highly acclaimed album, but also a fairly challenging record that, while it was for the most part a rock album, it played with a lot of production tactics and song structures that were unproven in the mainstream, not to mention lyrics that were a little more cryptic and somewhat less accessible than their previous work. so it was a business risk for their label EMI to spend the money to release and promote it, but also a risk worth taking since radiohead was so popular already that with the proper promotion, their fanbase and all the hype they generated was sure to produce at least some profit. that album actually exploded, was critically acclaimed across the board and made EMI a lot of fucking money despite a lot of the record sounding very different from most mainstream music at the time, so from that point onward radiohead was finally allowed to do whatever they wanted. since then they have done some pretty weird stuff and remained very popular.
so if you ask me, the way to do it is to sign to an indie label from the get-go and stay on it, hoping that your music is good enough and that you're lucky enough to develop a large fanbase over time. then, once you've shown that the sounds YOU want to be free to make can sell, and once you have a fanbase big enough to make the label feel like you're a good investment, THEN go for the major label and all the extra promotion and money and career opportunities they have to offer. that way you can have the benefits of a major label, but you also have creative freedom because the label trusts that you can make them money no matter what music you make. death cab for cutie did this, and even though their music has always been pretty pop-sensible; even though they became one of the most popular indie bands around 2003; it still took them 6 years and 5 albums released on indie labels before they could comfortably make the switch from indie to major label. now that they are on majors, though, they make a solid amount of money and yet they're still allowed to release an album that has a really noisy ending to the first song, a self-indulgent 4-minute instrumental intro to the album's premier song, and several song structures/aesthetics that are differentiable from most of today's pop music, because the label knows that death cab will be popular regardless of what they do with their music (within reason -- they probably still couldn't make an album like Kid A).
- What do you think has to be done to "save" the industry? Difficult question yes, but some genius has to give us the answer sometime..
this section of my post is VERY idealistic and probably not pragmatic, so anyone who's reading this, bare with me and feel free to educate me on any part of this that's unrealistic.
at this point i personally don't much care what happens to the music industry's current structure, and even if i did, no one has the answer to this crisis. it's so unlikely for any band to be able to have creative freedom on a major label that im not putting my eggs in that basket and do not feel directly affected if major labels started to collapse -- if anything i feel like it would pave the way for bands who are persistent and hardworking enough to find a way to promote and support themselves, and would mean that DIY bands have much more leverage than they used to when it comes to booking shows and getting promotion considering corporations wouldn't control the industry anymore, and the corporations wouldn't have all the connections either. that all sounds like a good thing to me, and even without labels, its not like you cant still hire independent agents to help you out with your booking and promotion.
there WOULD be a massive void to fill when it comes to the mass production and sale of albums, as there would no longer be an entity that has the power, money, and resources to do that sort of thing on a large scale, but that doesnt bother me either because to me music isn't about buying and selling albums; while it's necessary to make money if you want to make music the primary focus of your life, ive never been comfortable with seeing the albums themselves as purely a commodity. even if the sale and purchase of physical albums stopped being a commercial industry altogether, i'd still be perfectly content with just putting my music out on the internet, both for free AND on itunes so that people have the choice of whether they want to pay or not (album sales are nothing more than a donation to me), and just making whatever money i can make off of tour/merch since those are things that are not directly tied to the art itself for me, unlike an album which is the pinnacle form of the art.
i apologize if my answer was more-so speaking in terms of what would happen if the music industry WASN'T saved and DID collapse/transform into something less centralized by business, and if you're really looking for solutions to preserve the industry's current structure, jason tate posted a lengthy blog about his ideas for the music industry at the beginning of last year i think. i found it pretty insightful throughout in spite of the fact that i dont generally agree with most of his opinions when it comes to music/the industry, so if you wanted to search for that on this site, he had a lot of solid solutions.
- More and more bands are basically giving away their music for free, or they let the fans decide what to pay for the record. And then instead they rely on merch sales and ticket sales. Is that enough for a band on an indie label (with at least some recognition) to make a living out of? Will they even make enough money to do another album? How about major label bands? Is that a good way to go about it for them?
well, for any band who's looking to promote themselves, this is by far the most efficient way to get your name out. just think about it from a music fan's perspective: there are so many bands out there and such a large majority of them either suck or just don't make the kind of music you'd be interested in. because there's such a small chance that you'll actually like whatever music you're going to hear, it is highly unlikely that you're willing to spend money on music that youve never heard and that none of your friends know about. you are about 100 times more likely to give it a chance if you get to hear it for free. now, lets take that a step further and apply it to bands who let you sample their music once before you buy it -- even if you mildly enjoy what you heard, if it didn't blow you away (which is even more rare to happen) you're still not gonna spend any money on it, and if buying the record is the only way you can listen to it a second time, you're probably never going to listen to it again and are going to forget that band even existed, thus even if you "like" them you don't REALLY become a part of their fanbase. now, add in the fact that, considering its so easy these days to get free music, we're living in a generation that actually EXPECTS music to be free, so most people feel no obligation to purchase anything no matter how much theyve already been exposed to it, and therefore its flat out dumb to try to oblige them to buy something they've never heard or heard of and expect to get any result.
this is why putting out music for free is the only surefire way for any young band to get recognition now. maybe 10, even 5 years ago that wasn't the case, but now i honestly feel that if you're a young, relatively unknown band and you don't make your music available for free somewhere, you will get nowhere. if you put your music out for free, you may not receive any money but people will hear it and if it's good, you'll get a fanbase out of it. meanwhile, if you put a pricetag on your music, hardly anyone will buy it and listen to your band, so you still receive no money but then you also have no fanbase. that's a lot worse. a young band needs fans a lot more than they need money if they want to progress.
the "pay what you want" method is obviously the best because it allows people who want to pay you to do so, without limiting your potential fanbase by forcing anyone to pay, but really the most healthy way to look at it in modern times is "my album is free whether i like it or not (because people will find a way to MAKE it free), and any money i receive from my record is more of a donation than anything".
in reality, it's not like it makes a difference to an unsigned band whether or not they sell any albums because most signed bands don't ever see any of the money from their album sales anyway, since the label hoards it all. money-wise, the result is still the same for the band -- any money you make comes from tour and merch. however, dont construe this to mean that signed bands aren't affected at all by their albums not being purchased. remember, the label needs to make a profit, so even though all the money from album sales tends to go to the label, all that means is if the album isn't selling, the label can't support the band, and the same thing that happened to straylight run happens to them. so, yes, with the way the industry currently is, signed bands DO need to put a pricetag on their music so that their labels will support them. however, for an unsigned band, particularly a younger one that isn't well-known, its simply not a good idea to try to force people to buy your music; in fact, you should see it as a blessing if they decide to do so.
- Ok, last question and that's really the core of what I'm supposed to talk about in the presentation, and I guess it's kind of related to the previous question: I know there's a lot of people in bands on indie labels here that are doing well. So how does your band survive, and what do you guys do to get you music heard? (I guess anyone can answer this as long as your in a band and are serious about what you're doing. Record deal or no record deal)
well, my band's still in the very early stages, so all i can do right now is put my music out for free (with itunes as an option for those who want to donate money) and just try to play as many shows as possible. i've got a ways to go before im at the point where i can use my music as my primary occupation, so i can't really tell you how my band "survives".
Chromefox
01/30/10, 10:10 PM
if anyone who is more informed on any of this information than me would like to correct segments of this post, feel free. in fact, i welcome it, im always trying to learn more about what i hope can be my future career.
as someone else said, its just an evolution of the radio. people who are just going to sample your music are going to find a way to do that no matter what; for the whole decade of the 00's, since the inception of napster, there has always been a solid discrepancy between those who are devoted to supporting bands and owning full albums, and those who just go for free samples. i wouldn't worry about that too much because its actually much easier to salvage SOME value out of this form of exposure as a band (especially considering they have the option to purchase if they want) than it is when someone just finds a link to your album on mediafire/rapidshare/megaupload/sendspace/whatever, which would happen with or without the existence of streaming programs (in fact it probably happens less since streaming programs are more expedient for music listeners to use.)
[SNIP]
well, my band's still in the very early stages, so all i can do right now is put my music out for free (with itunes as an option for those who want to donate money) and just try to play as many shows as possible. i've got a ways to go before im at the point where i can use my music as my primary occupation, so i can't really tell you how my band "survives". Solid (wall of) post. Sounds reasonable to me.
Nettn07
01/31/10, 04:32 AM
if anyone who is more informed on any of this information than me would like to correct segments of this post, feel free. in fact, i welcome it, im always trying to learn more about what i hope can be my future career.
as someone else said, its just an evolution of the radio. people who are just going to sample your music are going to find a way to do that no matter what; for the whole decade of the 00's, since the inception of napster, there has always been a solid discrepancy between those who are..........
I'm not going to quote the whole damn thing here, but wow! Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of this. It really helped me out, especially that part about indie vs major labels..
If anyone else wants to add anything, please do. :-) I would appreciate it
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