Religious Views and Children [Archive]

WakingTheMisery

03/01/10, 12:36 PM

For those of you who have children or plan on having them, how do you plan on approaching theology with your children?

Personally I plan on bringing my children up on the Bible as a resource for educating and moralizing. I don't think I will have my children baptized or attend a CCD type deal. If they want to partake in religion later, so be it.

I realize a lot of people here may not have belief in a higher being or the divine. I guess this thread isn't aimed toward you, maybe.

bard

03/01/10, 12:41 PM

I was raised in a VERY religious household. I grew up in a non-denominational church and was pretty much "forced" to go every Sunday morning/night and Wednesday nights until I was 15 or 16 or so. I definitely don't plan on doing that if I have kids. I would want to teach the most important parts of Christianity to my children, without making it another chore that is done throughout the week.

Teaching religion shouldn't be anything like school (how my parents viewed it). Reading the Bible in a year when I was twelve? I didn't understand the majority of it, which bored/frustrated me, and pretty much caused me to not care about any religion for quite some time, until I matured out of it.

The Indigo

03/01/10, 12:49 PM

I feel like shoving religion down child's throat will only result in one of two things; either the child will grow to resent whatever faith they were brought up in, or they'll blindly believe it because they've never been given the opportunity to question it. I plan to share my beliefs with my kids, but always let them know that mine aren't the only views on religion, or even on Christianity. I was raised in a very Christian house-hold (I'm a PK) and I had to go to church almost three times a week up until I was around 18. My preacher father developed a drug addiction, and I had never been given the tools to deal with a crisis of faith (I was always just taught that God is basically some kick ass dude who is always awesome and fair) so I stopped believing in God for a long time. I regained my faith eventually, but I don't want my kids to have to go through a similar thing. I want them to be able to make the most informed decision about what they believe, if anything.

jmo182

03/01/10, 01:05 PM

as long as you teach your kids right from wrong it doesn't matter. they'll find their own way religion-wise later.

Machu505

03/01/10, 01:06 PM

I won't be taking them to church.

jmo182

03/01/10, 01:07 PM

drawndead

03/01/10, 01:28 PM

I'm a practicing Jew and my girlfriend was raised Roman Catholic who has recently started going to church again at 20 and we've talked about this and if we had kids we would teach them about both Catholicism and Judaism but not force it on them and let them decide if they want to follow one or the other or neither. I do think it is important to teach your children to believe in something, give them the option but don't force it on them

FueledByFrodo

03/01/10, 01:29 PM

I would never force religion on them. I want them to make their own decisions, not blindly believe what some priest (or in my case Rabbi) tells them.

I'm a practicing Jew and my girlfriend was raised Roman Catholic and we've talked about this and if we had kids we would teach them about both but not force it on them and let them decide if they want to follow one or the other or neither.

Replace "Roman Catholic" with "Baptist" and this is me.

re7ard1337

03/01/10, 01:32 PM

religious beliefs are generally passed down (and therefore, are hardly "beliefs") so I plan on hiding any of my own thoughts on spirituality in the hopes that they will find what they really believe.

drawndead

03/01/10, 01:34 PM

I would never force religion on them. I want them to make their own decisions, not blindly believe what some priest (or in my case Rabbi) tells them.

Replace "Roman Catholic" with "Baptist" and this is me.

you can't find a new jewish girl in jersey to date either? or you don't wanna end up marrying your jewish mother like me haha.

FueledByFrodo

03/01/10, 01:39 PM

you can't find a new jewish girl in jersey to date either? or you don't wanna end up marrying your jewish mother like me haha.

Well I live in extremesprejudice-ville, so there are about 15 Jews here. Besides, I have a girlfriend I really love. "Blah blah you're fifteen," I've already heard it all. But honestly, I would do the same thing either way. I would expose them to as many religions as possible and let them decide.

Haha, where in Jersey are you?

drawndead

03/01/10, 01:41 PM

Well I live in extremesprejudice-ville, so there are about 15 Jews here. Besides, I have a girlfriend I really love. "Blah blah you're fifteen," I've already heard it all. But honestly, I would do the same thing either way. I would expose them to as many religions as possible and let them decide.

Haha, where in Jersey are you?

haha yeah true, I met my current girlfriend when I was 17 anyways so I know how it haha

i'm in Middletown right before the Red Bank bridge next to Homdel and stuff. what about you

FueledByFrodo

03/01/10, 01:44 PM

haha yeah true, I met my current girlfriend when I was 17 anyways so I know how it haha

i'm in Middletown right before the Red Bank bridge next to Homdel and stuff. what about you

<---------- (Or if you don't feel like looking, Jackson)

My best friend lives in Middletown though. He lives right near one of the middle schools I think, not sure which though.

live.

03/01/10, 01:45 PM

drawndead

03/01/10, 01:45 PM

<---------- (Or if you don't feel like looking, Jackson)

My best friend lives in Middletown though. He lives right near one of the middle schools I think, not sure which though.

yeah not too far. I live right down the block from Thompson MS. Middletown is a decent size

drawndead

03/01/10, 01:47 PM

I can't speak for where I will be religiously when the time comes. I'd love to send my children to private schooling because of the faculty-to-student ratios and solid moral foundations. I think, with that, inevitably comes at least a loosely religious upbringing.

Holy Trinity if they do drugs
Kellenberg if their assholes
Chaminade if they wear pantyhose
St Anthonys if you're rich
St Marys if you're rich and pretentious haha

FueledByFrodo

03/01/10, 01:48 PM

yeah not too far. I live right down the block from Thompson MS. Middletown is a decent size

Hm, That might be the one. However, not too sure.

drawndead

03/01/10, 01:51 PM

Hm, That might be the one. However, not too sure.

we're probably neighbors then haha my backyard is Middletown South HS. it's terrible ha. I was in Lakewood the other day, I felt at home with all the Orthodox

FueledByFrodo

03/01/10, 01:56 PM

we're probably neighbors then haha my backyard is Middletown South HS. it's terrible ha. I was in Lakewood the other day, I felt at home with all the Orthodox

Haha.

sleepyseanzzz

03/01/10, 02:01 PM

its true. if you make your kids go, they will hate it. just like school.

i went to catholic school from preschool til high school graduation. i went to church almost weekly and took religion every year in school but i dont hate it nor am i a religious nut. im happy i went that route because the school i went to from k to 8 was the same kids, and we pretty much went to the same catholic high school and are still all best friends to this day. my brother did the same thing with his friends. we all do things together that God wouldn't be too proud to see but we also attend church and have a decent knowledge of the church and sacraments. perfect balance for me but hey thats just me

J.C.

03/01/10, 02:25 PM

I couldn't have a definitive answer on this until I know who my wife is and what her thoughts are and how she'll want to bring up our children.

Speaking solely for myself, I wouldn't try to indoctrinate them into organized religion all in the name of building some spiritual foundation to guide them. That's essentially what my parents attempted with me and it proved pointless. Everything I've learned and all the beliefs that guide my behavior have come from outside the school of religious thought acquired in my younger years. None of it's necessary to raising an intelligent, upstanding person with a good head on their shoulders.

saysmydoctor

03/01/10, 02:32 PM

.invisible ink.

03/01/10, 03:09 PM

i hope i marry an atheist like myself so it doesn't become an issue ever. i was raised to believe what i wanted (my family are agnostic/atheist) and attended Unitarian Universalist church services when i was a kid where they didn't push god or religion down your throat. that's the way i want it to be for my hypothetical child if i choose to have one.

I can't speak for where I will be religiously when the time comes. I'd love to send my children to private schooling because of the faculty-to-student ratios and solid moral foundations. I think, with that, inevitably comes at least a loosely religious upbringing.

there are tons of fantastic private schools in this country that are not based in religion so that doesn't need to be an issue unless you want it to be one when you choose a school.

Jake Gyllenhaal

03/01/10, 03:36 PM

I'm telling my kids you don't need religion to be a good person.

Machu505

03/01/10, 03:40 PM

The Indigo

03/01/10, 03:40 PM

I'm telling my kids you don't need religion to be a good person.
I want my kids to understand that as well.

perceptrons

03/01/10, 03:47 PM

I will treat it like every other unsupported idea, which is to let them know what it is and what it's about, but that there is no evidence to back up any of it's claims. If they want to know more, I'll point them in the direction to do so.

loveisdead

03/01/10, 03:54 PM

Holy Trinity if they do drugs
Kellenberg if their assholes
Chaminade if they wear pantyhose
St Anthonys if you're rich
St Marys if you're rich and pretentious haha
I went to St. Anthony's. I'm not rich. I don't care what I have to do but my kids are going there. I absolutely adore the school.

My plan for my kids would be to tell them if they have any questions on the various religions or God in general, to ask me. If I don't know the answer I'll direct them to a book/religious text. I'd hope they can make up their own mind on what makes the most sense to them.

zion the lion

03/01/10, 04:26 PM

I was baptized at least three times (the last time was forced in the same place as jesus apparently) I've had exorcisms preformed on me since I was 3 or 4 years old. I was raised in a very religious household, and we went by the whole "spare the rod, spoil the child" rule like other families did. I was taught to fear the lord by the church, they forced us to watch left behind and it scared the shit out of me.

I have no idea how I'll be raising my kids, maybe I'll be raising them the same way, maybe not...it depends on where I am on my spiritual path when children come into my life I guess. I just hope that whatever choice I make is the right one for them.

.invisible ink.

03/01/10, 04:45 PM

drawndead

03/01/10, 05:09 PM

I went to St. Anthony's. I'm not rich. I don't care what I have to do but my kids are going there. I absolutely adore the school.

My plan for my kids would be to tell them if they have any questions on the various religions or God in general, to ask me. If I don't know the answer I'll direct them to a book/religious text. I'd hope they can make up their own mind on what makes the most sense to them.

Most of the kids I'm friends with who went there are from Huntington, Cold Spring Harbor, Syosset parents definitely have some money. But I agree it is a great school I seriously considered transferring there while a sophomore but them we moved to jersey. Hopefully your kids are good at football and can keep the Friars a winning program

drawndead

03/01/10, 05:11 PM

yeknom

03/01/10, 05:19 PM

one of my biggest fears is that my child will resent me enough during his/her teens to become heavily involved and waste his life in priesthood or something; but I plan to keep my views (or lack there of) out of the childs mind until they're able to think critically.

Machu505

03/01/10, 05:20 PM

Jesus was a Jew, he was never baptized.

Yeah Jesus was a jew...

Yes he was baptized. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Jesus)

live.

03/01/10, 05:21 PM

Holy Trinity if they do drugs
Kellenberg if their assholes
Chaminade if they wear pantyhose
St Anthonys if you're rich
St Marys if you're rich and pretentious haha

I actually meant for grammar school. Catholic High Schools are worse than most public when it comes to drugs and sex, believe it or not.

Also, I am a pantyhose graduate.

live.

03/01/10, 05:21 PM

Yes he was baptized. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Jesus)

What's your point?

drawndead

03/01/10, 05:23 PM

I actually meant for grammar school. Catholic High Schools are worse than most public when it comes to drugs and sex, believe it or not.

Also, I am a pantyhose graduate.

ah a Flyer! great sports facilities over there. Do you like Cugini's?

Machu505

03/01/10, 05:23 PM

What's your point?

That someone was saying Jesus was never baptized, when according to Christian canon he was.

loveisdead

03/01/10, 05:24 PM

I actually meant for grammar school. Catholic High Schools are worse than most public when it comes to drugs and sex, believe it or not.

Also, I am a pantyhose graduate.
I'm so tempted to give you infraction points for going to Chaminade haha.

drawndead

03/01/10, 05:29 PM

I'm so tempted to give you infraction points for going to Chaminade haha.

My mom went to St. Mary's and my uncle went to Chaminade, the song is a staple of my childhood haha

loveisdead

03/01/10, 05:31 PM

My mom went to St. Mary's and my uncle went to Chaminade, the song is a staple of my childhood haha
Ugh haha. It's hilarious how I'm 4 years graduated from St. Tony's and I still despise Chaminade. Though I can admit it is an absolutely extraordinary school.

live.

03/01/10, 05:32 PM

I'm so tempted to give you infraction points for going to Chaminade haha.

Haha, I hated it. I was going to transfer but my mom claimed that in doing so I would break my grandmother's heart. So she offered me a new car if I graduated, and low and behold, I'm on a half-ride to a decent college with a new whip.

ah a Flyer! great sports facilities over there. Do you like Cugini's?

Only went a few times. I wasn't much of an after-school activities guy aside for a couple sports which I ended up getting cut from because everyone there was just so damn good.

jmo182

03/01/10, 05:33 PM

i went to catholic school from preschool til high school graduation. i went to church almost weekly and took religion every year in school but i dont hate it nor am i a religious nut. im happy i went that route because the school i went to from k to 8 was the same kids, and we pretty much went to the same catholic high school and are still all best friends to this day. my brother did the same thing with his friends. we all do things together that God wouldn't be too proud to see but we also attend church and have a decent knowledge of the church and sacraments. perfect balance for me but hey thats just me

you went to catholic school, therefore the religious life is pretty much all you knew. in public school, especially these days, sex and drugs and other things not ok by religion's standards are emphasized greatly. so that would be my argument as to why you turned out that way. but i'm glad it worked in your favor bro =]

jwicklun

03/01/10, 05:34 PM

i dunno. I was baptised, had communion, but since then I really have not gone to church. I might have my kids baptised, but I really do not want to put my kids to going to church constantly. Only around easter and christmas I will probably bring them to church. other than that, I just want to raise them smart enough to make their own choices in religion.

loveisdead

03/01/10, 05:34 PM

Haha, I hated it. I was going to transfer but my mom claimed that in doing so I would break my grandmother's heart. So she offered me a new car if I graduated, and low and behold, I'm on a half-ride to a decent college with a new whip.

Only went a few times. I wasn't much of an after-school activities guy aside for a couple sports which I ended up getting cut from because everyone there was just so damn good.
Yeah man even I can admit that going to Chaminade is great for your future. It's an insanely respected school by colleges. I'm just a typical St. Anthony's graduate and am still bitter about losing leagues to someone from your school in league finals Sophomore year.

Machu505

03/01/10, 05:34 PM

Ugh haha. It's hilarious how I'm 4 years graduated from St. Tony's and I still despise Chaminade. Though I can admit it is an absolutely extraordinary school.

I can't believe we'd elect such a prep school elitist as mod.

drawndead

03/01/10, 05:34 PM

Only went a few times. I wasn't much of an after-school activities guy aside for a couple sports which I ended up getting cut from because everyone there was just so damn good.

the place is wayyyy overhyped but being a grad from there is a huge accomplishment though. great school academically/sports.

loveisdead

03/01/10, 05:35 PM

I can't believe we'd elect such a prep school elitist as mod.
I love how you and Anthony still make mod jokes haha.

drawndead

03/01/10, 05:35 PM

Ugh haha. It's hilarious how I'm 4 years graduated from St. Tony's and I still despise Chaminade. Though I can admit it is an absolutely extraordinary school.

'06? i know a few '07s

loveisdead

03/01/10, 05:36 PM

'06? i know a few '07s
'05. Who do you know? Pm or write on my wall cause we're taking a relatively good thread way off track.

boxingwithstars

03/01/10, 05:45 PM

i will probably raise my children similar to the way my parents raised me. i was baptized in the Episcopal church, never forced to go to church or sunday school (but i went because i wanted to), and i also observed Jewish holiday's and traditions with my dad's family even though he has very strong atheist views himself. on top of that, my mother has always been very interested in Buddhism and passed a lot of her knowledge about it on to me and my sister.

i consider myself agnostic today, so i will probably skip baptizing my children (unless their father had strong feelings about it) but i would like to introduce them to religion... just not any religion in particular.

loveisdead

03/01/10, 05:46 PM

drawndead

03/01/10, 05:48 PM

I think it is important to give your kids the option of wanting to learn or be taught instead of being forced to not believe or for the belief to be shoved down their throats

sleepyseanzzz

03/01/10, 05:52 PM

you went to catholic school, therefore the religious life is pretty much all you knew. in public school, especially these days, sex and drugs and other things not ok by religion's standards are emphasized greatly. so that would be my argument as to why you turned out that way. but i'm glad it worked in your favor bro =]

thanks, i go to a public university and also have a lot of the same friends growing up in my town through the public system including my current girlfriend, dont know if that makes a difference though but i didnt mention it before

live.

03/01/10, 06:03 PM

Yeah man even I can admit that going to Chaminade is great for your future. It's an insanely respected school by colleges. I'm just a typical St. Anthony's graduate and am still bitter about losing leagues to someone from your school in league finals Sophomore year.

Haha, St. Anthony's is a great school, bro. I actually really wanted to go there, but actually was wait listed.

the place is wayyyy overhyped but being a grad from there is a huge accomplishment though. great school academically/sports.

Thanks dude

klawansie7

03/01/10, 06:16 PM

even though both my parents are jewish by birth, me and my sisters weren't really raised under any religion. my dad's parents strongly wanted us to be raised as super jews, and my parents were like "no way jose!".
but i joined a jewish youth group in high school and now wish i'd learned more about judaism when i was younger.

assuming i marry someone jewish, i think i'll want to send my kids to hebrew school so i can have a bat mitzvah with him/her (i have a family friend who did that and i thought it was a really cool concept).
but i wouldn't want to force my kid to believe in any particular religion, since i don't really believe in any.

GeeBee

03/01/10, 06:44 PM

Too much focus on teaching your kids WHAT to think, rather than HOW.

What's wrong with teaching morals sans magic?

bard

03/01/10, 07:53 PM

Too much focus on teaching your kids WHAT to think, rather than HOW.

What's wrong with teaching morals sans magic?
i agree with what you're saying. you can teach basic moral lifestyles without bringing religion into it at all.

but what the topic at hand is that it's inevitable that religion will be introduced to the child at some point and how you would want to handle it.

and i imagine that this topic is mainly focused at people who are religiously involved in some way.

also, AWESOME avatar.

xshady121

03/01/10, 08:21 PM

I can't believe we'd elect such a prep school elitist as mod.

I read this post first and was going to say something like "I love how we're still making election jokes"...

then i saw.
I love how you and Anthony still make mod jokes haha.

Exactly.

davehennessy

03/01/10, 08:35 PM

as long as you teach your kids right from wrong it doesn't matter. they'll find their own way religion-wise later.

You can't introduce one without mentioning the other

bard

03/01/10, 08:43 PM

You can't introduce one without mentioning the other
*preparing for the onslaught of posts caused by this idiotic post*

perceptrons

03/01/10, 08:43 PM

You can't introduce one without mentioning the other
Totally! Religion has a monopoly on that whole right-from-wrong/morality thing.

caveBEAR

03/01/10, 08:53 PM

You can't introduce one without mentioning the other

:-| <-- All that's needed, because I'm sure you know how I feel.

Oh, and :popcorn:

caveBEAR

03/01/10, 08:54 PM

I plan on raising my children to believe that the color orange is called green, and vice versa. Everything else I do with them will be normal. However, I can't wait for the first day when they come back from school, and I get to see their faces when they have to explain to me that I've been wrong the entire time. Then, Ashton jumps out, and we all have a good laugh.

bard

03/01/10, 08:57 PM

hahahahaha

caveBEAR

03/01/10, 08:59 PM

hahahahaha

Was this directed towards my color swap?

bard

03/01/10, 08:59 PM

Was this directed towards my color swap?
that and Ashton

caveBEAR

03/01/10, 09:01 PM

that and Ashton

Ha ha ha ha, I was worried the Ashton was a little too subtle, I'm happy it landed. It hinged on Ashton, and I'm happy he pulled his weight.

zion the lion

03/01/10, 09:47 PM

Jesus was a Jew, he was never baptized.

not according to Christianity

Yeah Jesus was a jew...

your point being?

saysmydoctor

03/01/10, 09:52 PM

not according to Christianity

your point being?
Oh, I guess if Christianity said it, it must be true.

loveisdead

03/01/10, 09:58 PM

Oh no this is going places I really hope it doesn't.

A7XXX

03/01/10, 10:12 PM

Well I live in extremesprejudice-ville, so there are about 15 Jews here. Besides, I have a girlfriend I really love. "Blah blah you're fifteen," I've already heard it all. But honestly, I would do the same thing either way. I would expose them to as many religions as possible and let them decide.

Haha, where in Jersey are you?
Wouldn't that make the kids more confused? It's ok to let them make the choice when they're a teenager but how can you expect an 6 years old kid to make up his mind whether Jesus, Budda, Allah, or Muhammad is real.

For me, I would expose my kids to the idea of a creator from a very young age. No religion or anything but I just want them to be involve in the church life

WakingTheMisery

03/01/10, 10:15 PM

Oh no this is going places I really hope it doesn't.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised it went this well. Haha.

Too much focus on teaching your kids WHAT to think, rather than HOW.

What's wrong with teaching morals sans magic?

I'm not arguing that teaching children using the Bible is THE way to go about it, but it certainly shaped me into the person I always wanted to be. I would love for my children to be in the same place I am.

emilymarie100

03/01/10, 10:19 PM

I personally have no clue, I myself believe in and love God even though I don't particularly have a certain religion, I want to talk with them about theories of religion and things like that but I don't want to influence them, but I don't want other people influencing them either if that makes sense. I want them to come to their own understand of life and God but to know that I'm always there to talk with them and hear what they have to say. Uhh I don't know if any of that made any sense, It's late.

loveisdead

03/01/10, 10:19 PM

I'm actually pleasantly surprised it went this well. Haha.

I'm not arguing that teaching children using the Bible is THE way to go about it, but it certainly shaped me into the person I always wanted to be. I would love for my children to be in the same place I am.

Zion and Sean's exchange scared me. Looks like we're ok for now.

zion the lion

03/01/10, 10:21 PM

Oh, I guess if Christianity said it, it must be true.

Stop being so desperate, I never said that. Read my original post, stop making up shit to go in between the lines, because, quite frankly, you dont even know my religion. And if you werent so quick to jump to conclusions maybe you would catch a key word in that whole thing (which was "apparently").

WakingTheMisery

03/01/10, 10:21 PM

Zion and Sean's exchange scared me. Looks like we're ok for now.

Any exchange with Zion is scary.

EchoPark

03/01/10, 10:23 PM

Raised in a devout Maronite Christian household, my wife had nothing to do with Christianity growing up so we will probably meet in the middle.

zion the lion

03/01/10, 10:25 PM

Zion and Sean's exchange scared me. Looks like we're ok for now.

No, I'm considering ignoring him or taking a nap or eating cookie dough. Probably all three. He's a cotton headed ninny muggins and I will have nothing to do with it anymore...probably.

emilymarie100

03/01/10, 10:27 PM

No, I'm considering ignoring him or taking a nap or eating cookie dough. Probably all three. He's a cotton headed ninny muggins and I will have nothing to do with it anymore...probably.

this sentence is amazing, careful on the cookie dough though, it gives me tummy aches. :-(

zion the lion

03/01/10, 10:37 PM

this sentence is amazing, careful on the cookie dough though, it gives me tummy aches. :-(

You'll learn to hate that amazingness just like the rest of these people soon enough.

saysmydoctor

03/01/10, 11:12 PM

Stop being so desperate, I never said that. Read my original post, stop making up shit to go in between the lines, because, quite frankly, you dont even know my religion. And if you werent so quick to jump to conclusions maybe you would catch a key word in that whole thing (which was "apparently").
You said "not according to Christianity"

If you meant something else, you should have said something else.

zion the lion

03/01/10, 11:30 PM

You said "not according to Christianity"

If you meant something else, you should have said something else.

Yes Jesus the Christ had a religion based on him which I was raised in. In said religion we are taught about how Jesus was baptized, so according to Christianity, he was baptized. For all you know, he could have not existed, he could have existed and been baptized in the Cape of Good Hope, but thats not the point. The tiny point is that according to the religion I was raised in, the messiah has already been baptized.

.invisible ink.

03/02/10, 03:25 AM

not according to Christianity

your point being?

Yes he was baptized. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Jesus)

Oh, I guess if Christianity said it, it must be true.

thanks ^, I came back in here to say this but you covered it for me.

xxemo_kittyxx

03/02/10, 05:23 AM

I don't think I would really want to have kids unless I figure my own religious conflicts out. I'd like to marry a guy who's on the same terms with me in religion: currently it's "that faith is between you and God and noone else". My parents raised me with the belief that if their children did not believe in the same things as they do, they will be condemned and punished. A lot of times I was told off using "do you want me to go to hell?" as an excuse, which doesn't really work at all. In some parts, i think it has benifited me in moral aspects but it gave me a lot more questions, some of which I still haven't found the answers to.

I want my kids to know God as a friend, but even that I think that religion should not be the main foundation everything. If anyone knows anything about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I want to make sure I have tried to meet all their needs there first before using God as an intervention.

Sorry if I'm not making any sense.

whiterussian

03/02/10, 06:03 AM

This is a really interesting thread idea. I'm impressed!

During my childhood I lived in the States and for a little while I was in some sort of really mild Sunday school or whatever that I can barely recall.

From a Catholic family - that school or whatever was pretty unspecific, besides being for Christians. It was nice... I think.
Now I'm not religious at all (never was much), but I won't go the point of saying I'm agnostic.
The point is, morally speaking I turned out fine. Oh, and I was baptized and all that other sacramental jazz.

If I ever have kids, I'll probably give them a Christianity Extra Lite. Or whatever my baby mama wants, if moderate.
And of course, they will be in charge of what they choose to believe, as long as they stay hate-free.

Actually, screw that. I'm raising them on Dudeism.

drawndead

03/02/10, 06:13 AM

come to thinking of it growing up, I was the only jewish kid i knew besides my cousins. (born on long island, raised in strasburg,pa and currently live in nj)

i would want to expose my kids to my beliefs and my wifes and all other religions and give them the option of believing or not or forming their own opinions

inthemidst

03/02/10, 08:29 AM

I would introduce them to my beliefs once they're old enough to understand. I wouldn't force it down their throats, but I would take them to church, though. Most churches aren't like what they used to be. They actually have children ministries that are fun for the kids, and also theologically educational at the same time. Since I am a Christian, I'm pretty biased towards the idea that I would like my children to share the same beliefs.

caveBEAR

03/02/10, 08:58 AM

inthemidst

03/02/10, 09:18 AM

Would you be forcing them to go to church?

Now that I think about it, I really hate the term "force". I mean, yes I will take them to church, but just because I'm taking them, doesn't mean that I'm taking them against their will. That's what I think of when the term "force" is used. I will teach them what I believe, and why I believe what I believe, and I will bring them into a loving community that shares these beliefs, and encourages my children in the best way possible.

caveBEAR

03/02/10, 09:23 AM

Now that I think about it, I really hate the term "force". I mean, yes I will take them to church, but just because I'm taking them, doesn't mean that I'm taking them against their will. That's what I think of when the term "force" is used. I will teach them what I believe, and why I believe what I believe, and I will bring them into a loving community that shares these beliefs, and encourages my children in the best way possible.

What if they don't want to go?

inthemidst

03/02/10, 09:31 AM

What if they don't want to go?

Depends on the age. My prayer is that they would want to go to church, since I'm active in my own church. But if they're old enough to explain that they don't believe in the same thing; as heartbreaking as that would be, I would have to understand. Making them go would only worsen the situation, and they would distaste all religious activity.

caveBEAR

03/02/10, 09:36 AM

Depends on the age. My prayer is that they would want to go to church, since I'm active in my own church. But if they're old enough to explain that they don't believe in the same thing; as heartbreaking as that would be, I would have to understand. Making them go would only worsen the situation, and they would distaste all religious activity.

:-| Maybe it's because I'm not a religious person, but I don't see how taking your kid to church every week and raising them to follow a religion isn't (I understand there's a negative connotation, I don't mean to push it) 'shoving it down their throats'. If you raise them in an environment in which religion is a big factor, you're maybe not 'shoving' religion so much as you are 'pushing' it. Which is fine, that's how you want to raise you children, I guess my gripe is with people wishing to raise their children religiously trying to say they're not shoving it on their kids; if their kids are raised with it, they don't really know much else.

Although, the fact that you would be accepting of a child who wants to find a different path is awesome, that's all a kid could ever hope for in a parent.

inthemidst

03/02/10, 09:46 AM

:-| Maybe it's because I'm not a religious person, but I don't see how taking your kid to church every week and raising them to follow a religion isn't (I understand there's a negative connotation, I don't mean to push it) 'shoving it down their throats'. If you raise them in an environment in which religion is a big factor, you're maybe not 'shoving' religion so much as you are 'pushing' it. Which is fine, that's how you want to raise you children, I guess my gripe is with people wishing to raise their children religiously trying to say they're not shoving it on their kids; if their kids are raised with it, they don't really know much else.

Although, the fact that you would be accepting of a child who wants to find a different path is awesome, that's all a kid could ever hope for in a parent.

The negative connotation of the term "forced" is what causes me to despise it. I just want my children to grow up in a home with parents who love, respect, and accept them for who they are. The best way I know how to do that is through Christianity. Not the right-wing political demographic that most seem to think of, but the "Jesus loves you no matter what, and so do we" Christianity.

Religion is just one of those things that has so many different negative things attached to it. I'm not here to use cliches, but I believe in Jesus, I love my life, and I want my kids to grow up the same, and experience the same joy that this all-encompassing belief has brought me.

jmo182

03/02/10, 09:47 AM

You can't introduce one without mentioning the other

you can't tell your kids that stealing or hitting their friends is wrong without telling them about jesus? is that what you're saying?

caveBEAR

03/02/10, 09:47 AM

The negative connotation of the term "forced" is what causes me to despise it. I just want my children to grow up in a home with parents who love, respect, and accept them for who they are. The best way I know how to do that is through Christianity. Not the right-wing political demographic that most seem to think of, but the "Jesus loves you no matter what, and so do we" Christianity.

Religion is just one of those things that has so many different negative things attached to it. I'm not here to use cliches, but I believe in Jesus, I love my life, and I want my kids to grow up the same, and experience the same joy that this all-encompassing belief has brought me.

Sounds good to me. :-)

xshady121

03/02/10, 09:48 AM

:-| Maybe it's because I'm not a religious person, but I don't see how taking your kid to church every week and raising them to follow a religion isn't (I understand there's a negative connotation, I don't mean to push it) 'shoving it down their throats'. If you raise them in an environment in which religion is a big factor, you're maybe not 'shoving' religion so much as you are 'pushing' it. Which is fine, that's how you want to raise you children, I guess my gripe is with people wishing to raise their children religiously trying to say they're not shoving it on their kids; if their kids are raised with it, they don't really know much else.

Although, the fact that you would be accepting of a child who wants to find a different path is awesome, that's all a kid could ever hope for in a parent.

"shoving it down their throats" and "taking my kids to church" are two separate things.

I can't explain it much better than that, but trust me. I was raised in a religious environment, and I didn't have religion shoved down my throat. I openly questioned certain aspects of christian doctrine and still do. If it was shoved down my throat, I'd be a mindless christian drone.

inthemidst

03/02/10, 09:51 AM

caveBEAR

03/02/10, 09:52 AM

"shoving it down their throats" and "taking my kids to church" are two separate things.

I can't explain it much better than that, but trust me. I was raised in a religious environment, and I didn't have religion shoved down my throat. I openly questioned certain aspects of christian doctrine and still do. If it was shoved down my throat, I'd be a mindless christian drone.

I was raised in a home where no one was a deep believer, but we went to church every week because 'that's what you do', so it's hard for me not to equate taking the kids to church and forcing it a bit, but I get what both of you guys are saying. Diff'rent strokes, diff'rent folks!

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 10:29 AM

I was "forced" to go to church through my confirmation, and for a little while really enjoyed going to church. Then the priest started getting pissy about people parking in his parking spot and I said to myself, "this guy probably shouldn't care about where he parks." and abandoned it all. Haha. I never really took church as an absolute truth and after reading the book Ishmael now see the Old Testament for what it was intended. It's actually quite intriguing how metaphorical those books are.

Scrandon

03/02/10, 12:51 PM

Machu505

03/02/10, 01:20 PM

Oh, I guess if Christianity said it, it must be true.
This has been addressed, but I have to say this is the most desperate post you've ever written. Clearly what's being referred to is Christian canon.

Good day.

davehennessy

03/02/10, 01:32 PM

you can't tell your kids that stealing or hitting their friends is wrong without telling them about jesus? is that what you're saying?

Are you saying you believe morals could/would exist without religion?

jmo182

03/02/10, 01:36 PM

i am without religion, and i would like to think i have morals. christianity is elitist. religion =/= morals.

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 01:40 PM

i am without religion, and i would like to think i have morals. christianity is elitist. religion =/= morals.

That is not true at all. Religion is essentially a set of moral codes. You can have morals without religion but to say they are not related is the most ignorant thing I've heard in a while.

davehennessy

03/02/10, 01:42 PM

That is not true at all. Religion is essentially a set of moral codes. You can have morals without religion but to say they are not related is the most ignorant thing I've heard in a while.

This

perceptrons

03/02/10, 01:47 PM

Are you saying you believe morals could/would exist without religion?
Is that a serious question?

drawndead

03/02/10, 01:52 PM

To a child, it's not gonna be about choosing between religions, it's gonna be more like choosing between mom and dad. I just don't think a kid can make this decision.

well i mean when they get older, around bar/bat mitzvah/confirmation age. Right now I go to church with my girlfriend's family and she comes to synagogue with my family. If we were to get married we would continue that

davehennessy

03/02/10, 02:02 PM

Is that a serious question?

I'm not saying non-religious people can't have morals. I'm talking about origins... morals exist because what is "right" and what is "wrong" was established at the very beginning of time. I guess you could say religion wasn't directly associated with morals at first, but it came to be that way as the idea of religion began to take shape

caveBEAR

03/02/10, 02:06 PM

I'm not saying non-religious people can't have morals. I'm talking about origins... morals exist because what is "right" and what is "wrong" was established at the very beginning of time. I guess you could say religion wasn't directly associated with morals at first, but it came to be that way as the idea of religion began to take shape

Are we talking about the real beginning of time or the Old Testament beginning of time here?

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 02:10 PM

Hamurabi's Code!

Kozzy333

03/02/10, 02:12 PM

Raised in a completely religion free household. I have never had a religious discussion with my parents, I don't even know if they believe in god although I would like to talk to them about it. I think I'll probably end up being similar depending on my wife's views.

White Noise

03/02/10, 02:13 PM

I was raised in the Church, and plan on doing so for my children.

GeeBee

03/02/10, 02:28 PM

i agree with what you're saying. you can teach basic moral lifestyles without bringing religion into it at all.

but what the topic at hand is that it's inevitable that religion will be introduced to the child at some point and how you would want to handle it.

and i imagine that this topic is mainly focused at people who are religiously involved in some way.

also, AWESOME avatar.
haha, thx.

I agree, they should be knowledgeable about what people believe so as not to be ignorant, but that's more a question of teaching sociology than it is morals.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised it went this well. Haha.

I'm not arguing that teaching children using the Bible is THE way to go about it, but it certainly shaped me into the person I always wanted to be. I would love for my children to be in the same place I am.
There's such a thing as doing the right things for the right reasons. The bible, it could be argued, teaches people to do the right things out of fear of punishment. Secular humanism offers far more by way of values than the Bible does.

perceptrons

03/02/10, 02:29 PM

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to wait for your children to make the decision for themselves when they were old enough to understand.

jmo182

03/02/10, 02:30 PM

That is not true at all. Religion is essentially a set of moral codes. You can have morals without religion but to say they are not related is the most ignorant thing I've heard in a while.

i didn't say they weren't related.
religion does not equal morals in the same way that morals do not equal religion.
the bible (minus all the bullshit of course) is essentially a book of morals. so yes, they are related.
but you do not have to have religion in your life to have morals. that was my point.

GeeBee

03/02/10, 02:30 PM

Ugh. After reading through some of these answers, I'm not even gonna try. Bear, it's all yours.

davehennessy

03/02/10, 02:32 PM

but you do not have to have religion in your life to have morals. that was my point.

Well I agree with this

jmo182

03/02/10, 02:34 PM

Are you saying you believe morals could/would exist without religion?

then why did you ask this question?

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 02:38 PM

There's such a thing as doing the right things for the right reasons. The bible, it could be argued, teaches people to do the right things out of fear of punishment. Secular humanism offers far more by way of values than the Bible does.

The problem with secular humanism, is the difficulty to teach it to a developing adolescent. I agree, you don't need to bring God into the picture to make light of moral issues but it is quite easy to use Catholicism when there are countless books and teachings catered toward children. You don't need to tell the child to believe particular things in order for them to get a basic handle of concepts. I look at the books more as an Aesop's Fable type deal more than anything. Hell, the book is responsible for my learning how to read.

http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/precious%20moments%20bible.jpg

davehennessy

03/02/10, 03:01 PM

then why did you ask this question?

I thought you were saying that morals are separate from religion

perceptrons

03/02/10, 03:16 PM

The problem with secular humanism, is the difficulty to teach it to a developing adolescent. I agree, you don't need to bring God into the picture to make light of moral issues but it is quite easy to use Catholicism when there are countless books and teachings catered toward children. You don't need to tell the child to believe particular things in order for them to get a basic handle of concepts. I look at the books more as an Aesop's Fable type deal more than anything. Hell, the book is responsible for my learning how to read.
What sorts of things would be difficult to teach?

I thought you were saying that morals are separate from religion
Not sure what you mean by this but I read it two ways. All morals are tied to religion, or the morals that are espoused by a religion are intertwined/inseparable from said religion. I hope you didn't mean the former.

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 03:18 PM

What sorts of things would be difficult to teach?

Teaching ethical concepts to a six year old. Sure, "stealing is bad" works but I just feel as though it simplifies it.

saysmydoctor

03/02/10, 03:31 PM

This has been addressed, but I have to say this is the most desperate post you've ever written. Clearly what's being referred to is Christian canon.

Good day.
And my point remains that the Christian canon has been known to be inaccurate.

Earth is round, the Earth revolves around the Sun, etc, etc.

Just because it's Christian canon does not make it true. If anything, it makes it even more suspect--but that's my serious bias.

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 03:57 PM

And my point remains that the Christian canon has been known to be inaccurate.

Earth is round, the Earth revolves around the Sun, etc, etc.

Just because it's Christian canon does not make it true. If anything, it makes it even more suspect--but that's my serious bias.

Most historians (the ones who believe Jesus lived) will say that Jesus was baptized. A lot of Jews were actually baptized in those days. The circumstances were different, but the whole water thing used to happen fairly often.

saysmydoctor

03/02/10, 04:01 PM

Most historians (the ones who believe Jesus lived) will say that Jesus was baptized. A lot of Jews were actually baptized in those days. The circumstances were different, but the whole water thing used to happen fairly often.
I struggle to believe a lot of the information around Jesus. I can fathom him not being married, I don't buy into the conception, I wonder where 18-35 in the Bible disappeared to.

Jake Gyllenhaal

03/02/10, 04:10 PM

I struggle to believe a lot of the information around Jesus. I can fathom him not being married, I don't buy into the conception, I wonder where 18-35 in the Bible disappeared to.

you mean 18 - 30?

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 04:12 PM

I struggle to believe a lot of the information around Jesus. I can fathom him not being married, I don't buy into the conception, I wonder where 18-35 in the Bible disappeared to.

There is no doubt that a large portion of his life was shrouded in mystery, but somethings just did happen. Of course most of the stuff pertaining to what we do know is hyperbolic. From what I have learned about the events in my historical methods classes, the assumption of truth behind cannot be accepted as fact, but is close enough where most will say it happened. I don't exactly understand the whole idea behind that, but whatever.

perceptrons

03/02/10, 04:13 PM

Teaching ethical concepts to a six year old. Sure, "stealing is bad" works but I just feel as though it simplifies it.
"How would you feel if Johnny stole your favorite toy, little Jenny?"
"Sad."
"How do you think Johnny would feel if you stole his favorite toy, then?"
"Sad, too"
... etc.

Seems easy enough to me.

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 04:15 PM

"How would you feel if Johnny stole your favorite toy, little Jenny?"
"Sad."
"How do you think Johnny would feel if you stole his favorite toy, then?"
"Sad, too"
... etc.

Seems easy enough to me.

If that works for you, give it a go. I'll stick with my way. :shrug:

perceptrons

03/02/10, 04:21 PM

If that works for you, give it a go. I'll stick with my way. :shrug:
It's cool. I'm not trying to be a dick about it or anything, I was just curious.

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 04:24 PM

It's cool. I just love the way I was brought up and don't want to change too much.

davehennessy

03/02/10, 04:41 PM

Not sure what you mean by this but I read it two ways. All morals are tied to religion, or the morals that are espoused by a religion are intertwined/inseparable from said religion. I hope you didn't mean the former.

What I mean was all morals stem from religion. No one has to introduce right and wrong to their kids that way, but it really doesn't make sense to teach little Johnny that "lying to your parents is bad" without explaining the reasons behind it. Sure, kids are kids, and if they're young enough they'll buy anything you tell them, but that's not the point

saysmydoctor

03/02/10, 04:45 PM

you mean 18 - 30?
Thought it was 35, I've been wrong before though.

bard

03/02/10, 04:51 PM

What I mean was all morals stem from religion. No one has to introduce right and wrong to their kids that way, but it really doesn't make sense to teach little Johnny that "lying to your parents is bad" without explaining the reasons behind it. Sure, kids are kids, and if they're young enough they'll buy anything you tell them, but that's not the point
saying all morals stem from religion is pretty ignorant. i mean, i'm a Christian and was raised with Christ-like morals, but what you're saying is really ignorant.

all people have a sense of right and wrong. for some people it comes from religious upbringing, and for some, it's just a general "golden rule" idea.

Jake Gyllenhaal

03/02/10, 04:52 PM

Thought it was 35, I've been wrong before though.

You're talking his age, right? I'm pretty sure he was crucified at age 33.

bard

03/02/10, 04:54 PM

yeah, came out of the desert and whatnot at 30, crucified at 33.

clearly states that he was raised in school like any other normal child, and was a carpenter his whole life.

perceptrons

03/02/10, 04:54 PM

You're talking his age, right? I'm pretty sure he was crucified at age 33.
That's the most common age thrown around, yes.

davehennessy

03/02/10, 05:03 PM

saying all morals stem from religion is pretty ignorant. i mean, i'm a Christian and was raised with Christ-like morals, but what you're saying is really ignorant.

all people have a sense of right and wrong. for some people it comes from religious upbringing, and for some, it's just a general "golden rule" idea.

I understand what you're saying, but people have a sense of right and wrong either because they are brought up a certain way or because they observe on their own. People are not born with a sense of right and wrong.. it is something that gets communicated to them in some way or another over and over again throughout their lives

Praetor

03/02/10, 05:05 PM

What I mean was all morals stem from religion.
I really don't know how to respond to this without being condescending. Just...I mean, you're wrong.

bard

03/02/10, 05:05 PM

I understand what you're saying, but people have a sense of right and wrong either because they are brought up a certain way or because they observe on their own. People are not born with a sense of right and wrong.. it is something that gets communicated to them in some way or another over and over again throughout their lives
.... i don't know what to tell you about this anymore.

edit: lol at the post above mine + this post

davehennessy

03/02/10, 05:10 PM

I really don't know how to respond to this without being condescending. Just...I mean, you're wrong.

How so?

macabre

03/02/10, 05:12 PM

People are not born with a sense of right and wrong.

Evidence?

Praetor

03/02/10, 05:14 PM

How so?
I honestly don't know how to explain this to you. If you said "the sky is black", I would not know how to respond other than saying "it's blue, look up and see for yourself". Morality gave birth to religion, not the other way around.

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 05:14 PM

Hammurabi's code was not based on any religious belief, simple punishable things. If you do something wrong, you will learn through capital punishment. If I saw a man killed after killing another man, I would know killing is wrong, if I didn't already.

davehennessy

03/02/10, 05:19 PM

I honestly don't know how to explain this to you. If you said "the sky is black", I would not know how to respond other than saying "it's blue, look up and see for yourself". Morality gave birth to religion, not the other way around.

Morality existed before religion.. it did not give birth to it

bard

03/02/10, 05:23 PM

Morality existed before religion.. it did not give birth to it
so you're saying that morals were around before religion?

you just contradicted what you posted on the last page.

Praetor

03/02/10, 05:23 PM

Morality existed before religion.. it did not give birth to it
Ugh, I forgot for a second that I was talking to someone who believed that God created man and not the other way around. My bad.

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 05:24 PM

Morality existed before religion.. it did not give birth to it

I would say most of them. Definitely all of the modern religions. Even some of the ancients were as well.

Look at Shinto. The basis of the religion is respect for everything. Giving all things, living or inanimate, a soul begs for the respect of everyone. Sure the religion isn't practical today, but it was definitely built on moral principle.

davehennessy

03/02/10, 05:24 PM

Ugh, I forgot for a second that I was talking to someone who believed that God created man and not the other way around. My bad.

Well then there you go

macabre

03/02/10, 05:25 PM

All morals stem from religion.

Morality existed before religion.

How can morality stem from religion if it existed before it?

bard

03/02/10, 05:26 PM

http://biobreak.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/facepalm.jpg

Praetor

03/02/10, 05:29 PM

How can morality stem from religion if it existed before it?
Jesus clearly owned a Delorean.

davehennessy

03/02/10, 05:33 PM

How can morality stem from religion if it existed before it?

Physical religion (churches, etc.) did not exist at the beginning of time. However, morality has existed since the beginning of time because it is a part of the design of life

macabre

03/02/10, 05:54 PM

Physical religion (churches, etc.) did not exist at the beginning of time. However, morality has existed since the beginning of time because it is a part of the design of life

Please clarify your points if you're going to make an argument. One of the main reasons people have mocked you on this forum is because you articulate your arguments in an incredibly lazy manner. In the two posts I quoted you on, you used different meanings of the word religion without specifying and it came off as a blatant inconsistency.

My question to you, is this: If morality is not innate and humans can only learn about morals by interacting with their environment, how is morality a part of "the design of life"? Wouldn't that presuppose morality being innate?

davehennessy

03/02/10, 06:17 PM

WakingTheMisery

03/02/10, 06:26 PM

When the world was created, there was one rule created with it (anyone with any knowledge of the book of Genesis knows what I'm referencing, 'do not eat of the tree of good and evil'). When man fell, the ideas of morality and punishment were born. When I said morality "is a part of the design of life," I didn't mean we were born with the distinction between right and wrong.. I meant that it has been designed that humans observe what morals are through their own experiences (or alternately, by being taught by their parents, friends, whoever). Morality is a societal construct, something that differs from culture to culture, religion to religion. We are brought up influenced by what we observe or what we learn from others.. in this way, it is a part of the design of life

I'd love for you to read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael_(novel)#Plot_summary) and give me your take. It is long, but essentially reshaped my view of the Bible and birth of civilization. If it seems too sensitive, just disregard it. I find it to be a rather brilliant interpretation.

And I realize it's told from the perspective of an ape.

macabre

03/02/10, 06:33 PM

When the world was created, there was one rule created with it (anyone with any knowledge of the book of Genesis knows what I'm referencing, 'do not eat of the tree of good and evil'). When man fell, the ideas of morality and punishment were born. When I said morality "is a part of the design of life," I didn't mean we were born with the distinction between right and wrong.. I meant that it has been designed that humans observe what morals are through their own experiences (or alternately, by being taught by their parents, friends, whoever). Morality is a societal construct, something that differs from culture to culture, religion to religion. We are brought up influenced by what we observe or what we learn from others.. in this way, it is a part of the design of life

I think a lot of people on this forum would agree with what you just said, minus the biblical origins of morality.

GeeBee

03/02/10, 06:37 PM

jmo182

03/02/10, 08:35 PM

I thought you were saying that morals are separate from religion

if you can have morals without religion, then it is separate from religion.

davehennessy

03/02/10, 09:27 PM

if you can have morals without religion, then it is separate from religion.

When the world was created, there was one rule created with it (anyone with any knowledge of the book of Genesis knows what I'm referencing, 'do not eat of the tree of good and evil'). When man fell, the ideas of morality and punishment were born. When I said morality "is a part of the design of life," I didn't mean we were born with the distinction between right and wrong.. I meant that it has been designed that humans observe what morals are through their own experiences (or alternately, by being taught by their parents, friends, whoever). Morality is a societal construct, something that differs from culture to culture, religion to religion. We are brought up influenced by what we observe or what we learn from others.. in this way, it is a part of the design of life

this

The Indigo

03/02/10, 10:25 PM

The ethic of reciprocity (the golden rule) predates most religious notions currently popular by several thousand years.

Despite religious morons like davehennesy, I still fail to see how teaching secular humanist values is not equal (if not superior) to religious instruction.
Having faith really helps people in times of need. Personally, I've been through hard times that were made easier to deal with by my faith (whether a higher being had anything to do with it is beside the point for me) and I would hope my children would have that to fall back on as well to help them in times of trouble. If they choose not to, that's OK too.

To harken back to an earlier discussion, I almost definitely won't be taking my kids to church. I don't regularly go myself (Sundays = sleeping in), but I wouldn't consider taking a kid to church every Sunday to be "forcing" them any more than all the other things one would "force" a kid to do. I remember someone asking, "What if they don't want to go?" a few pages back and I just thought to myself, "Who cares what a six year old wants to do?"

jmo182

03/02/10, 11:30 PM

this

you see, thats how christians believe it all began. not what everyone believes or what is fact.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 01:02 AM

you see, thats how christians believe it all began. not what everyone believes or what is fact.

:rolleyes:

perceptrons

03/03/10, 04:39 AM

Having faith really helps people in times of need. Personally, I've been through hard times that were made easier to deal with by my faith (whether a higher being had anything to do with it is beside the point for me) and I would hope my children would have that to fall back on as well to help them in times of trouble. If they choose not to, that's OK too.

To harken back to an earlier discussion, I almost definitely won't be taking my kids to church. I don't regularly go myself (Sundays = sleeping in), but I wouldn't consider taking a kid to church every Sunday to be "forcing" them any more than all the other things one would "force" a kid to do. I remember someone asking, "What if they don't want to go?" a few pages back and I just thought to myself, "Who cares what a six year old wants to do?"
So... you think crutches are a positive thing? Interesting.

Also, I would care what my six year old wants, to a certain extent.

xshady121

03/03/10, 06:25 AM

When the world was created, there was one rule created with it (anyone with any knowledge of the book of Genesis knows what I'm referencing, 'do not eat of the tree of good and evil'). When man fell, the ideas of morality and punishment were born. When I said morality "is a part of the design of life," I didn't mean we were born with the distinction between right and wrong.. I meant that it has been designed that humans observe what morals are through their own experiences (or alternately, by being taught by their parents, friends, whoever). Morality is a societal construct, something that differs from culture to culture, religion to religion. We are brought up influenced by what we observe or what we learn from others.. in this way, it is a part of the design of life

I thought the world was created in 7 days by God. Which story is right?!?!

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 07:32 AM

I thought the world was created in 7 days by God. Which story is right?!?!

You know, I had almost this exact response typed up last night, and then I thought better of it because there's no getting through to this guy...so goooood luck.

xshady121

03/03/10, 09:11 AM

You know, I had almost this exact response typed up last night, and then I thought better of it because there's no getting through to this guy...so goooood luck.

I don't want to deal with him either. As a theist, I don't believe the stories even contradict each other. But that's more theology then I like to engage in as personally, I believe they are moral-based and not fact-based.

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 09:13 AM

I don't want to deal with him either. As a theist, I don't believe the stories even contradict each other. But that's more theology then I like to engage in as personally, I believe they are moral-based and not fact-based.

This is why I don't (generally) clash with you on religious issues.

Hennessey, however, now that's a different situation...

jmo182

03/03/10, 09:41 AM

:rolleyes:

i win.

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 09:48 AM

:rolleyes:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha, are you really being condescending about your lack of understanding towards the history of the physical world?

Hmm, interesting...

davehennessy

03/03/10, 10:04 AM

i win.

haha, blind

I thought the world was created in 7 days by God. Which story is right?!?!

all the same story my friend

<*)))><

03/03/10, 10:12 AM

I do not have morals because I do not have religion.

paper halo

03/03/10, 10:17 AM

Ha ha ha ha ha ha, are you really being condescending about your lack of understanding towards the history of the physical world?

Hmm, interesting...

Who needs to understand things when you can just say God did it?

With regards to the topic, I don't plan to introduce my hypothetical children to any religion or set of beliefs. Though if they were to ask me, for example, how the world came about, my answer would be based in science.

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 10:18 AM

haha, blind

What exactly is he blind to?

<*)))><

03/03/10, 10:19 AM

What exactly is he blind to?
Color

paper halo

03/03/10, 10:19 AM

What exactly is he blind to?

I would advise against going down this road. Unless you particularly enjoy banging your head against walls.

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 10:22 AM

I would advise against going down this road. Unless you particularly enjoy banging your head against walls.

I'll bang my head against any wall he can build. I'm familiar with Hennessey.

WakingTheMisery

03/03/10, 10:28 AM

I'll bang my head against any wall he can build. I'm familiar with Hennessey.

Break down dem wallz.

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 10:41 AM

Seems like he won't reply to me anyway...so there goes that.

macabre

03/03/10, 10:57 AM

When the world was created by aliens, there was one rule created with it. It was, "Do not eat the purple plant". One of the humans mistakenly ate the purple plant and because of this, he and his friends were then transported to a movie theater in a distant planet. The aliens then forced the humans to watch a terribly boring documentary which described morality and what humans ought to do in every situation. The aliens then wiped their memory clean, leaving only the moral lessons that they had learned during the movie. The lessons were then passed on from generation to generation and that's how morality came to be.

Prove me wrong... you won't. :rolleyes:

The Indigo

03/03/10, 11:08 AM

So... you think crutches are a positive thing? Interesting.

Also, I would care what my six year old wants, to a certain extent.
Not everyone can be as strong as they have to be 100% of the time. Some of us need something to fall back on.

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 11:23 AM

Not everyone can be as strong as they have to be 100% of the time. Some of us need something to fall back on.

My crutch is marijuana. You're 100% accepting of my crutch, right?

The Indigo

03/03/10, 11:29 AM

My crutch is marijuana. You're 100% accepting of my crutch, right?
Yup. As long as the crutch isn't hurting anyone else, I'm cool with it, for the most part. Most of my friends are pot smokers, and I eclipsed them in smoking up until a little over a year ago.

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 11:31 AM

Yup. As long as the crutch isn't hurting anyone else, I'm cool with it, for the most part. Most of my friends are pot smokers, and I eclipsed them in smoking up until a little over a year ago.

Cool. Not often that open-mindedness towards alternative lifestyles and religion go hand in hand. Nice to see.

The Indigo

03/03/10, 11:33 AM

Cool. Not often that open-mindedness towards alternative lifestyles and religion go hand in hand. Nice to see.
Depends on the religion. I think Hinduism and Buddhism are both notable for their acceptance of other belief systems, even within the space of their own religion.

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 11:35 AM

Depends on the religion. I think Hinduism and Buddhism are both notable for their acceptance of other belief systems, even within the space of their own religion.

Ha ha ha, well, yeah, but I've never really run into asshole Hindus, you know? Those religions don't aim themselves to be as rigid and rule-based as Christianity and Islam.

The Indigo

03/03/10, 11:37 AM

Ha ha ha, well, yeah, but I've never really run into asshole Hindus, you know? Those religions don't aim themselves to be as rigid and rule-based as Christianity and Islam.
It's most Christians who push the rigidity of the "rules" of Christianity. For a group of a people who claim to have such incredible belief in a vengeful, wrathful God, the majority of Christians are quite a scared collection of people, threatened by any idea that isn't their own.

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 11:39 AM

It's most Christians who push the rigidity of the "rules" of Christianity. For a group of a people who claim to have such incredible belief in a vengeful, wrathful God, the majority of Christians are quite a scared collection of people, threatened by any idea that isn't their own.

That's the main thing, and being scared is no way to live.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 01:39 PM

peder458

03/03/10, 02:09 PM

Show me a text that's survived for thousands and thousands of years that tells that exact story and I'll consider taking you more seriously in the future

So any text that is thousands of years old and tells a story is to be taken literally? I am sure you see the problem with that...

davehennessy

03/03/10, 02:25 PM

So any text that is thousands of years old and tells a story is to be taken literally? I am sure you see the problem with that...

The Bible is the oldest text.. ever. Of course just because something is really old doesn't necessarily make it factual, but the Bible is of course different. Obviously I don't expect anyone on here to agree with me or ever stop shooting down the Bible and what it represents for Christians and the world in general, but opinions are opinions, so believe what you want to

macabre

03/03/10, 02:30 PM

Show me a text that's survived for thousands and thousands of years that tells that exact story and I'll consider taking you more seriously in the future

My point wasn't that such an event actually occurred. It was merely a story to demonstrate the flaw of using mere speculation to make an argument. You did not witness the the creation of this world nor did you know Adam and Eve, your belief in Genesis is based on faith and with the absence of evidence on your part, you should be a bit more humble in your dealings with people.

Furthermore, your argument that morality is a social construct and that the mere existence of cultural ideals and traditions are a part of the design of life does not require the existence of a god nor does it demonstrate a strong argument in its favor. Cultures throughout history have had myths that invoke the divine in order to explain the existence of certain phenomena and morality is no different. If you want to take the Genesis description literally, you're entitled to your own opinion but please cut the arrogance.

xshady121

03/03/10, 02:34 PM

I'm too busy laughing right now.

This kid gives theists a bad name. End of story.

xshady121

03/03/10, 02:37 PM

davehennessy

03/03/10, 02:51 PM

Now you're just talking out of your ass.

The oldest text ever is egyptian, not hebrew.

In addition, the bible wasn't reconciled until the common era. The bible as it stands now and the original "texts" are two different beasts.

I wasn't talking about actual texts or languages, I was referring to the Bible's content and ideas. They are all the same. Obviously the Bible has not been translated word for word exactly over the thousands of years it has existed, but the content is consistent

davehennessy

03/03/10, 02:52 PM

My point wasn't that such an event actually occurred. It was merely a story to demonstrate the flaw of using mere speculation to make an argument. You did not witness the the creation of this world nor did you know Adam and Eve, your belief in Genesis is based on faith and with the absence of evidence on your part, you should be a bit more humble in your dealings with people.

Furthermore, your argument that morality is a social construct and that the mere existence of cultural ideals and traditions are a part of the design of life does not require the existence of a god nor does it demonstrate a strong argument in its favor. Cultures throughout history have had myths that invoke the divine in order to explain the existence of certain phenomena and morality is no different. If you want to take the Genesis description literally, you're entitled to your own opinion but please cut the arrogance.

This is somewhat off-topic, but I'm just curious: What is your honest personal opinion on how the world was created?

xshady121

03/03/10, 02:52 PM

I wasn't talking about actual texts or languages, I was referring to the Bible's content and ideas. They are all the same. Obviously the Bible has not been translated word for word exactly over the thousands of years it has existed, but the content is consistent
So the bible isn't the oldest text.....ever as you claimed?

I'm genuinely trying to understand how this isn't a contradiction.

GeeBee

03/03/10, 02:58 PM

Having faith really helps people in times of need. Personally, I've been through hard times that were made easier to deal with by my faith (whether a higher being had anything to do with it is beside the point for me) and I would hope my children would have that to fall back on as well to help them in times of trouble. If they choose not to, that's OK too.

To harken back to an earlier discussion, I almost definitely won't be taking my kids to church. I don't regularly go myself (Sundays = sleeping in), but I wouldn't consider taking a kid to church every Sunday to be "forcing" them any more than all the other things one would "force" a kid to do. I remember someone asking, "What if they don't want to go?" a few pages back and I just thought to myself, "Who cares what a six year old wants to do?"

As to your first paragraph: no argument. I've got no problem with faith. The only thing I have a problem with is faith posited as fact.

As to your second paragraph: There's a difference between making a child do something for his own good, and exposing a child to wild speculation and indoctrination.

GeeBee

03/03/10, 03:00 PM

I'm genuinely trying to understand
Pretty much the definition of "futile enterprise" with mr. hennessy.

xshady121

03/03/10, 03:04 PM

Pretty much the definition of "futile enterprise" with mr. hennessy.

I actually feel bad for this guy, because he doesn't see how contradictory he is.

He gives theists a bad name.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 03:04 PM

So the bible isn't the oldest text.....ever as you claimed?

I'm genuinely trying to understand how this isn't a contradiction.

With this response

The oldest text ever is egyptian, not hebrew.

In addition, the bible wasn't reconciled until the common era. The bible as it stands now and the original "texts" are two different beasts.

I got the impression that you were talking about the language of the Bible, the exact wording of its content. I'm talking about the actual content and ideas within the Bible.. its stories, parables, accounts of events, they are all exactly the same stories that were written down originally. The translations (exact wording) of these stories might differ from version to version, but the stories are the same, which is proof that the Bible, in its entirety, is an actual document that has truthfully existed since its beginning

xshady121

03/03/10, 03:06 PM

With this response

I got the impression that you were talking about the language of the Bible, the exact wording of its content. I'm talking about the actual content and ideas within the Bible.. its stories, parables, accounts of events, they are all exactly the same stories that were written down originally. The translations (exact wording) of these stories might differ from version to version, but the stories are the same, which is proof that the Bible, in its entirety, is an actual document that has truthfully existed since its beginning

You said the bible is the oldest text ever.

That is a lie.

The oldest texts are of egyptian origin and they have nothing to do with the bible. The bible is an old text (and when I say bible here, I loosely mean the individual stories that comprise it) but it is an outright lie to claim, as you did, that it's the oldest text...ever

Theseventhson

03/03/10, 03:10 PM

Subscribing

+1

xshady121

03/03/10, 03:11 PM

Subscribing

+1

I used to follow you on twitter until I deleted my account.

Just letting you know that.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 03:12 PM

I actually feel bad for this guy, because he doesn't see how contradictory he is.

He gives theists a bad name.

I may not be the best at clearly communicating my defenses, but I know what I'm talking about (unlike a lot of people in this forum who have no real beliefs but decide they're going to shoot someone down anyway)

Theseventhson

03/03/10, 03:14 PM

I used to follow you on twitter until I deleted my account.

Just letting you know that.
Yeah, I hardly used it, and when I did it was usually sports related. It's a silly website but I can't help but have one.

/being off topic.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 03:14 PM

You said the bible is the oldest text ever.

That is a lie.

The oldest texts are of egyptian origin and they have nothing to do with the bible. The bible is an old text (and when I say bible here, I loosely mean the individual stories that comprise it) but it is an outright lie to claim, as you did, that it's the oldest text...ever

You misunderstood what I said. I said "text", yes, but by text I was referring to the Bible as a surviving piece of literature

Praetor

03/03/10, 03:15 PM

You misunderstood what I said. I said "text", yes, but by text I was referring to the Bible as a surviving piece of literature
Dude, when you get called on bullshit, just admit it. I have. Everybody else in this forum has been able to back off and say "my bad". I don't understand why you can't.

xshady121

03/03/10, 03:16 PM

You misunderstood what I said. I said "text", yes, but by text I was referring to the Bible as a surviving piece of literature

If you're talking about it as a "surviving piece of literature" then you're talking about it when it was already reconciled (and became one "text" rather than a bunch of individual stories), which once again, did not come until the common era.

You can't have it both ways here.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 03:20 PM

Dude, when you get called on bullshit, just admit it. I have. Everybody else in this forum has been able to back off and say "my bad". I don't understand why you can't.

That post wasn't bullshit, it was someone else misunderstanding what I said. There's a difference. I'm completely down with admitting when I bullshit, but most of the back and forth in this thread (and forum) is because of people's misunderstandings or wanting clarifications. I've already admitted several times that I'm no good at clearly communicating my point over forums like this, but I try, which is what's important to me

Praetor

03/03/10, 03:21 PM

That post wasn't bullshit, it was someone else misunderstanding what I said. There's a difference. I'm completely down with admitting when I bullshit, but most of the back and forth in this thread (and forum) is because of people's misunderstandings or wanting clarifications. I've already admitted several times that I'm no good at clearly communicating my point over forums like this, but I try, which is what's important to me
It's funny that there seems to be a misunderstanding/miscommunication when it comes to every single thing you post ever.

xshady121

03/03/10, 03:22 PM

It's funny that there seems to be a misunderstanding/miscommunication when it comes to every single thing you post ever.

No dude, you're just misunderstanding him.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 03:22 PM

If you're talking about it as a "surviving piece of literature" then you're talking about it when it was already reconciled (and became one "text" rather than a bunch of individual stories), which once again, did not come until the common era.

You can't have it both ways here.

I'm more referring to it as a surviving piece of literature (as a whole, that exists today)

Theseventhson

03/03/10, 03:23 PM

Heyzues Christo

davehennessy

03/03/10, 03:23 PM

It's funny that there seems to be a misunderstanding/miscommunication when it comes to every single thing you post ever.

Which is exactly why I've admitted I'm not the best at communicating my point clearly.. read my last post again, slowly

macabre

03/03/10, 03:24 PM

This is somewhat off-topic, but I'm just curious: What is your honest personal opinion on how the world was created?

I've actually vacillated over the past few years between a purely materialistic explanation and a materialistic explanation with the addition of a prime mover. If God exists, I don't think he's as involved in our everyday affairs as the major religions have made him out to be.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 03:26 PM

I've actually vacillated over the past few years between a purely materialistic explanation and a materialistic explanation with the addition of a prime mover. If God exists, I don't think he's as involved in our everyday affairs as the major religions have made him out to be.

So you do or do not believe in a higher being?

Praetor

03/03/10, 03:26 PM

Which is exactly why I've admitted I'm not the best at communicating my point clearly.. read my last post again, slowly
You lecturing me on reading comprehension. Oh, the irony. Let me see if I can make my point: if you can't articulate your nonsensical points here, you don't belong here. If I was deaf, I wouldn't wander into the music forum and talk about Sun Ra's music. And that's your problem - you are intellectually deaf. You've got your faith and shit, and that's cool man, honestly I respect that. But we try to debate things here in terms of reason, and faith and reason exist in two different sphere. You're trying to talk about apples in terms of oranges.

Praetor

03/03/10, 03:28 PM

On the topic of the thread, I probably wouldn't deliberately expose my children to religion but if they asked I would give them an honest answer and tell them that it's up to them to decide. I wouldn't push any belief/nonbelief on them.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 03:31 PM

You lecturing me on reading comprehension. Oh, the irony. Let me see if I can make my point clearly: if you can't articulate your nonsensical points here, you don't belong here. If I was deaf, I wouldn't wander into the music forum and talk about Sun Ra's music. You are intellectually deaf. You've got your faith and shit, and that's cool man, honestly I respect that. But faith and reason exist in two different spheres, and you're trying to debate apples in terms of oranges.

So the way I try to defend my faith doesn't quite do it for you.. I'm sorry. But the reason I contribute to these forums (religious forums) is usually because I see some post that's just completely ridiculous and I feel moved to comment on it, which of course turns into an entire five pages of me and other people going back and forth. The way I see it is this is a thread about religion (like others on the AP forums) and everyone that contributes to the AP forums has an opinion and a right to speak it.. I am no exception. If I want to defend my faith, I have every right to do so. If you and whoever else thinks everything I say is bullshit, fine, but understand I'm contributing because I want to, not because I'm trying to be a dick about anything and everything

macabre

03/03/10, 03:33 PM

So you do or do not believe in a higher being?

At this point in my life, I'm probably more of a deist than anything. However, I'm always willing to change my mind.

Praetor

03/03/10, 03:38 PM

So the way I try to defend my faith doesn't quite do it for you.. I'm sorry.
No man, that's not it. I wouldn't go into a church and hand out copies of The Origin of Species. Because I know that's the wrong venue to debate science vs. religion. You have to recognize that this is not the place for you to bring your voodoo.
But the reason I contribute to these forums (religious forums) is usually because I see some post that's just completely ridiculous and I feel moved to comment on it,
This (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=62974512#post62974 512) was your first post in the thread. You know, the one in which you posited that religion and morals were inseparable. I mean, just saying. Your story/posts don't match up.
which of course turns into an entire five pages of me and other people going back and forth.[/'quote]
Because you say stupid shit.
[quote]The way I see it is this is a thread about religion
In a way, but it's not a debate thread. An open-ended question. It's not even really political, although I totally understand why Henry put it here. And like most other threads, you ruined it with your idiocy.
(like others on the AP forums) and everyone that contributes to the AP forums has an opinion and a right to speak it.. I am no exception. If I want to defend my faith, I have every right to do so.
Absolutely, but I wish you wouldn't. Because it's obnoxious.Here's the thing: I go to church. Hell, I've worked there for the last two years. The reasons aren't important. The thing I'm trying to say is that I know that's not the right venue to go around disagreeing with everything everybody there says. If I had to pick a fight with my pastor every time he said something dumb I wouldn't be doing anything else with my life.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 03:49 PM

The thing I'm trying to say is that I know that's not the right venue to go around disagreeing with everything everybody there says.

So you're saying that because 99% of AP is either atheist or just has something against Christianity, I shouldn't contribute? Welcome to the world. There's many more places and people that don't take Christianity seriously (or even hate it), but that doesn't mean I (or any other Christian) should be discouraged from speaking the truth. Just because someone doesn't want to hear something, doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't tell them anyway

Praetor

03/03/10, 03:52 PM

davehennessy

03/03/10, 03:55 PM

No, I'm saying you should recognize that the Politics forum is about debate, and saying "God did it" is not debate.

So how do you suggest I go about "debating" next time I make a comment in the religion forum?

Praetor

03/03/10, 03:57 PM

So how do you suggest I go about "debating" next time I make a comment in the religion forum?
I suggest that you don't rely on anything other than logic.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 04:00 PM

I suggest that you don't rely on anything other than logic.

So this is truly a forum of atheists

Praetor

03/03/10, 04:01 PM

So this is truly a forum of atheists
No, it's a forum of smart people. For example, Anthony doesn't try to debate his religion. Sure, he'll debate some parts of it, but only the parts that are rooted in fact, and I have a lot of respect for that.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 04:04 PM

No, it's a forum of smart people. For example, Anthony doesn't try to debate his religion. Sure, he'll debate some parts of it, but only the parts that are rooted in fact, and I have a lot of respect for that.

How do you expect someone to not debate their religion in a religion forum? Are you saying do more listening instead of do more talking?

Machu505

03/03/10, 04:04 PM

So this is truly a forum of atheists

Spooky, I know.

Praetor

03/03/10, 04:05 PM

How do you expect someone to not debate their religion in a religion forum? Are you saying do more listening instead of do more talking?
You're clearly not reading any of my posts. I'm done with you.

macabre

03/03/10, 04:07 PM

So how do you suggest I go about "debating" next time I make a comment in the religion forum?

No one would really bother you if you stated your arguments in terms of beliefs rather than factual statements. There's a huge gulf between the two and you seem to ignore that whenever you make an argument. Belief and knowledge are not the same thing. Just adding the simple clause of "I believe" before your statements would make you seem much less abrasive.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 04:09 PM

No one would really bother you if you stated your arguments in terms of beliefs rather than factual statements. There's a huge gulf between the two and you seem to ignore that whenever you make an argument. Belief and knowledge are not the same thing. Just adding the simple clause of "I believe" before your statements would make you seem much less abrasive.

Well that's the trick isn't it

xshady121

03/03/10, 04:10 PM

Well that's the trick isn't it

If you would acknowledge the contradictions I could put up with you using beliefs, as I am a man with beliefs as well.

However you are everything wrong with theists in one poster.

jmo182

03/03/10, 04:11 PM

haha, blind

all the same story my friend

thats good logic. i'm blind. you're living in a dream, sir.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 04:13 PM

If you would acknowledge the contradictions I could put up with you using beliefs, as I am a man with beliefs as well.

However you are everything wrong with theists in one poster.

Thanks. I'll try to be more open to contradictions in the future

perceptrons

03/03/10, 04:21 PM

Not everyone can be as strong as they have to be 100% of the time. Some of us need something to fall back on.
I understand that, just as I understand that most people have a crutch of some form or another. I don't, however, understand why someone would promote a crutch as you appear to be doing. Crutches are bad, and should not be promoted.

A lot of people use alcohol as a crutch, should alcoholics promote that to their children?

The Indigo

03/03/10, 05:13 PM

As to your first paragraph: no argument. I've got no problem with faith. The only thing I have a problem with is faith posited as fact.

As to your second paragraph: There's a difference between making a child do something for his own good, and exposing a child to wild speculation and indoctrination.
For someone who is more overt in their religion, I don't know how I'd ask them to not expose their child to it when it's such a huge part of their life.

The Indigo

03/03/10, 05:16 PM

I understand that, just as I understand that most people have a crutch of some form or another. I don't, however, understand why someone would promote a crutch as you appear to be doing. Crutches are bad, and should not be promoted.

A lot of people use alcohol as a crutch, should alcoholics promote that to their children?
I don't think they should. The difference I see is that faith works very well as a crutch for some people, even though not for all. Alcoholism, on the other hand, is factually proven to be a detrimental crutch. Faith as a crutch is much more subjective as to whether or not it's detrimental. Personally, it's something I've found is helpful to me and if my kids find it's helpful as well, I'd like that (but again, I'd be perfectly fine if they didn't as well).

peder458

03/03/10, 05:37 PM

The Bible is the oldest text.. ever. Of course just because something is really old doesn't necessarily make it factual, but the Bible is of course different. Obviously I don't expect anyone on here to agree with me or ever stop shooting down the Bible and what it represents for Christians and the world in general, but opinions are opinions, so believe what you want to
The bible is certainly NOT the oldest text ever..... no matter how you try to define or spin this sentence, it is wrong.
This is somewhat off-topic, but I'm just curious: What is your honest personal opinion on how the world was created?
I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I feel compelled to respond. In the goal of understanding the big picture, I don't see how positing God as the prime mover solves any questions about the origins of the world/universe. With as much as scientists have learned about cosmology, what good does it do to slap God before that... just because you happen to believe in him? It adds nothing to knowledge about origins because how God might have done it is just as much of a mystery.
I may not be the best at clearly communicating my defenses, but I know what I'm talking about (unlike a lot of people in this forum who have no real beliefs but decide they're going to shoot someone down anyway)
I personally find it really interesting what you (as well as others) really think/believe. It isn't to shoot anybody down. I also don't think you need to have religious beliefs to understand them... and it goes both ways; I would expect religious people to at least try to understand why some people have a hard (or impossible) time believing in any sort of God whatsoever.

xshady121

03/03/10, 05:51 PM

The bible is certainly NOT the oldest text ever..... no matter how you try to define or spin this sentence, it is wrong.

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I feel compelled to respond. In the goal of understanding the big picture, I don't see how positing God as the prime mover solves any questions about the origins of the world/universe. With as much as scientists have learned about cosmology, what good does it do to slap God before that... just because you happen to believe in him? It adds nothing to knowledge about origins because how God might have done it is just as much of a mystery.

I personally find it really interesting what you (as well as others) really think/believe. It isn't to shoot anybody down. I also don't think you need to have religious beliefs to understand them... and it goes both ways; I would expect religious people to at least try to understand why some people have a hard (or impossible) time believing in any sort of God whatsoever.

You're misunderstanding him. It's the oldest text in the form as complete compiled book. But then its not "thousands of years" old as he said. "facts" and "logic" only apply when it behooves his argument.

peder458

03/03/10, 05:58 PM

You're misunderstanding him. It's the oldest text in the form as complete compiled book. But then its not "thousands of years" old as he said. "facts" and "logic" only apply when it behooves his argument.

I see what you are/he was trying to say, but his sentence is still wrong. Not sure it is worth it to argue with him, but it is pretty interesting to me at least.

xshady121

03/03/10, 05:59 PM

I see what you are/he was trying to say, but his sentence is still wrong. Not sure it is worth it to argue with him, but it is pretty interesting to me at least.

It's 100% wrong. Each time I told him he was wrong, he said I wasn't understanding.

He's wrong. Period.

peder458

03/03/10, 06:32 PM

It's 100% wrong. Each time I told him he was wrong, he said I wasn't understanding.

He's wrong. Period.

I noticed that... seems to be a trend for a handful of people around here. My goal is to avoid being that person.

caveBEAR

03/03/10, 06:48 PM

So you're saying that because 99% of AP is either atheist or just has something against Christianity, I shouldn't contribute? Welcome to the world. There's many more places and people that don't take Christianity seriously (or even hate it), but that doesn't mean I (or any other Christian) should be discouraged from speaking the truth. Just because someone doesn't want to hear something, doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't tell them anyway

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, the regulars here are able to debate, you're able to repeat what you think over and over and over and over again, albeit convoluted and incomprehensible. I am the ONLY person in my entire extended family who isn't religious, and I haven't ever clashed with them on the subject, mostly because they refrain from saying stupid, contrived, ignorant, unprovable bullshit. You should try it sometime.

Oh, and your 'truth' is relative.

davehennessy

03/03/10, 07:47 PM

I would expect religious people to at least try to understand why some people have a hard (or impossible) time believing in any sort of God whatsoever.

Absolutely. It's definitely fascinating to me, and that's a huge part of the reason why I love the fact that AP has religious (or technically 'Politics') boards. It's so interesting to hear what other people believe, regardless of my 'in the end' opinion of what those beliefs are

GeeBee

03/03/10, 07:53 PM

Absolutely. It's definitely fascinating to me, and that's a huge part of the reason why I love the fact that AP has religious (or technically 'Politics') boards. It's so interesting to hear what other people believe, regardless of my 'in the end' opinion of what those beliefs are

That's because your opinions seem to be formulated, "in the end", and protrude therefrom.