Unsure Religion

[MuseofMayhem16]

I just need to say this, here and now. I'm catholic, but I don't feel like I'm truly am. I listen to punk music, dress differently from what the church are. I can't pretend to be someone I'm not. I can't dress up in some perfect skirt and say I'm holy.
This year I'm getting conformation, and I'm scared shitless. How am I supposed to be confirmed if I feel like I don't believe in God anymore? I know he promised to leave us be, but can't he see when his people need him more than ever? Can't he see that we've screwed ourselves into a corner with Iraq? If we pull out, they may drop another attack on the US, but if we keep fighting, then more innocent people are going to die. Why can't God interfere again? Why let us suffer?
I'm told that God doesn't like something different from what he created. But that truly doesn't sound like what God would say, only something from the mouths of adults of older generations. They're the ones who don't except gay people, interracial marriage or those other controversies. It makes me so mad that they can't get the idea that things change. They can't just move on.
I'm sorry I'm rambling on like I am, but has been in my head forever. It's makes me sick everytime my mom mentions church school or anything holy. I get nervous and don't talk for a while. I'm terrified to the point of crazyness. And I can't tell my parents, cause it would just kill them to know that their daughter doesn't believe in God.
There, I said it. I do not believe in God anymore. If he really cared about anyone, he'd help us. He wouldn't just watch us die like we are now. If I stood in the middle of church and said "Fuck" over and over, do you think he would banish me to hell? We all die, but I don't believe there is such a place of heaven and hell. I'm sorry, but I just don't.
Okay, I'm done.

[apoemtothedead]

:o

[MuseofMayhem16]

0_0' What is that exactly mean? I'm such a confused chick.

[ForeverInADay]

yeah I was raised catholic, but then I was like "Fuck, this is stupid. Religion is fucking dumb".

I hate every religion. The only religion I somewhat have respect for (most likely because I don't know ALL that much about it) is Buddhism.

[FondestMemory]

i was raised very religious, but about 13 my mother gave me the choice to make up my own mind.

it wasn't long after that when i realized i never bought any of it and was really an atheist all along.

and to this day, i'm a very strong atheist.

the way i look at it, is if i'm wrong, and there is an infinite being up there controlling things, why is he letting happen so much of the shit that happens? too many good things happen to too many good people. so, if there's somebody controlling all that, they can suck my dick and they're not worth me worshiping anyways.

[Freud]

youre going to hell

[MuseofMayhem16]

youre going to hell
But that's the truth. I can't lie to myself anymore. or are you talking about everyone in this thread?

[MuseofMayhem16]

What if your parents don't give you a choice? What if they say that's just an excuse to be lazy? I hate it when they do that. I may be lazy but I know when I feel something is wrong.

[FondestMemory]

What if your parents don't give you a choice? What if they say that's just an excuse to be lazy? I hate it when they do that. I may be lazy but I know when I feel something is wrong.

tell them you don't believe in god. and that you're not being lazy, but you really don't believe any of the shit being fed to you.

[MuseofMayhem16]

I know, but everytime I even think of telling them, it scares me and I start to feel kinda sick.

[mikeford]

i got confirmed catholic and havent been to church since that day and denounce the existance of god on a daily basis.

fuck it man. make up your own mind. if you dont believe in the religion your parents thrust upon you, fuck it, dont believe in it.

[ForeverInADay]

Tell your parents. Who cares if they're disappointed in you, you should have to fake it just to please them.

Fuck that.

Tell them that Christians are just want to be cannibals eating and drinking the body and blood of an extremely dead magical man. That should make them happy.

[Shoes]

How/why have you lost you faith?

[Jra1]

the great thing about catholicism is you can do whatever the fuck you want and aslong as you repent on your death bed you're in the first elevator to upper-H-town

as you can tell i dont care about religion at all, its all the same shit written different ways

[mikeford]

the great thing about catholicism is you can do whatever the fuck you want and aslong as you repent on your death bed you're in the first elevator to upper-H-town

as you can tell i dont care about religion at all, its all the same shit written different ways

not 100% true
there is 1 unforgivable sin in the bible. if you denounce the existance of the holy spirit, you can NEVER be saved. ever. you can say or do anything else and be forgiven, but the second you deny the holy spirit, youre doomed to hell no matter what and you will never be forgiven.


thats assuming the bible isnt a racist load of shit.... which it is... so who really cares.

[KB3RG]

I was also raised a catholic and also confirmed. When I went through the process I didnt really understand much of it at all. My parents never really went to church so neither did I. I started to lose faith and my friend got me back into it. However, I really dont know what to think about being a catholic because it is very strict. I believe in God and havent been to church in a long time. Do I feel bad yes. I went to a different church with one of my friends and it helped a lot more because well as one of my friends put it "being a catholic basically a repeat, pray, knee, pray, sing, leave" its not FUN and there is a lot of lecture. When I went with my friend to church. They made it a lot easier for people to understand by giving examples of today.

As for telling your family, I think you need to tell them how you feel about it. Also what made you no believe in God at first? Just talk things over with the family. It may be hard to do but do it.

[RememberFminus2]

kids grow up way too fast. your 16 you shouldnt be bothered by finding god right now in my opinion.

for the record:
Almost Here- The Academy Is /Phantoms- Acceptance /Heroine- From First To Last /The Same Old Blood Rush With A New Touch- Cute Is What We Aim For /Volcano- Gatsby's American Dream /Zombies!Vampires!Aliens!Dinosaurs!- Hellogoodbye"

none of that is punk rock, you know just so you know.

[FondestMemory]

What if your parents don't give you a choice? What if they say that's just an excuse to be lazy? I hate it when they do that. I may be lazy but I know when I feel something is wrong.

ok, i could have said this earlier, but didn't for some reason. i went through what you're going through when i was about 13, like i said.

it wasn't so much that my mom just up and gave me a choice out of the blue. but one day after the sermon, i was confused why my pastor made a reference to all gays going to hell and telling us we should feel the need to save them from their lives of sin.

i simply asked my mom, if we're taught to love our brothers in christ, and we're taught not to judge, how can our pastor get up in front of the congregation and denounce an entire group of people. and tell everybody that these people none of us had never met were going to hell. that sounded very hateful and judging to me. so i brought it up to my mom.

she then realized that i was smart enough to make my own choice, and made her realize that i was listening and wasn't just trying to get out of going. she felt i was mature enough to go my own way. so i stopped going to church and eventually became a full out atheist.

figure out what you're not happy with. what's made you feel the way you do. then talk to your parents about it. talking it out will prove it's not just a lazy way of getting out of church. if you go to them and logically explain your feelings, and that's not ok with them, then they never should have had children in the first place.

[Shoes]

kids grow up way too fast. your 16 you shouldnt be bothered by finding god right now in my opinion.

for the record:
Almost Here- The Academy Is /Phantoms- Acceptance /Heroine- From First To Last /The Same Old Blood Rush With A New Touch- Cute Is What We Aim For /Volcano- Gatsby's American Dream /Zombies!Vampires!Aliens!Dinosaurs!- Hellogoodbye"

none of that is punk rock, you know just so you know.
That's not true at all. Any age is a good age to find God.

[Moatilliatta085]

That's not true at all. Any age is a good age to find God.

I think that his point was that if you don't find God at 16, you shouldn't feel like a sinning monster or whatever, cuz you eventually will come to more of an understanding of life and stuff. Well...tho it depends on whether you're open to understand and not just say "fuck everything I don't give a damn"
I'm a catholic and have been all my life and did my confirmation and all, and even so there's a lot of the bible and stuff I don't believe in. I don't feel like a hypocrite cuz I feel that the ultimate point is not what you believe in or not, but what your actions are, not just because religion or society say it's right or wrong, but because of what you feel.
In my whole family we incorporate aspects of buddhism and even hinduism (yes, strange for a hispanic family, but whatever), but in any case, I think that if your moral codes aren't strong enough, you need religion to keep you straight. If you're fine w/o religion and still consider yourself a good person, then it's because you have gone past the necessity of religion.
Oh, and the reason why so much shit goes around is because stuff happens for a reason that our puny little minds can't really comprehend. Some person x could get HIV and it's like "why is this happening to me?" but then that person goes and joins HIV awareness campaigns to help other people from falling in that same situation, so there, he saved a bunch of people. I know it sounds overly simplistic, but that's how stuff works

[GoWaitInTheCar]

the great thing about catholicism is you can do whatever the fuck you want and aslong as you repent on your death bed you're in the first elevator to upper-H-town

as you can tell i dont care about religion at all, its all the same shit written different ways


I'll buy what you are selling.

[GoWaitInTheCar]

I can see what you are trying to say, but disagree. I think you believe in God and you feel as though you aren't sure why he's letting things go on.

Also, if you don't give a shit about the catholic church, you wouldn't be worried about getting confirmed. At your age, you'd be forced to get confirmed and that's that and you wouldn't what it intentions were, you'd shrug it of as bullshit, you I believe you do care with that Religion.

All and all, I think you wanna believe but you are just to confused to know what's right and what's just random stuff peole put in God's mouth. You want to know what he really ment and what he really said.

All and all, I can relate, I'm at the same stage of life that you are.

[ForeverInADay]

I can see what you are trying to say, but disagree. I think you believe in God and you feel as though you aren't sure why he's letting things go on.

Also, if you don't give a shit about the catholic church, you wouldn't be worried about getting confirmed. At your age, you'd be forced to get confirmed and that's that and you wouldn't what it intentions were, you'd shrug it of as bullshit, you I believe you do care with that Religion.

All and all, I think you wanna believe but you are just to confused to know what's right and what's just random stuff peole put in God's mouth. You want to know what he really ment and what he really said.

All and all, I can relate, I'm at the same stage of life that you are.
Wait, you're telling her what she believes in?

[GoWaitInTheCar]

Wait, you're telling her what she believes in?

Right, that's exactly what I just said...

:wacko:

[FondestMemory]

Wait, you're telling her what she believes in?

he's telling her what he thinks she believes in.

[Kram41]

eh...i've gone to catholic schools my whole life (though high school and college are both Jesuit schools so they don't really count).

i got confirmed in eighth grade and the whole deal. i haven't been to church in years. my beliefs aren't in line with those of the catholic church so i stopped going. i have no idea what i believe in (in terms of a god and afterlife). it's not a big deal to me though, whatever.

[MuseofMayhem16]

kids grow up way too fast. your 16 you shouldnt be bothered by finding god right now in my opinion.

for the record:
Almost Here- The Academy Is /Phantoms- Acceptance /Heroine- From First To Last /The Same Old Blood Rush With A New Touch- Cute Is What We Aim For /Volcano- Gatsby's American Dream /Zombies!Vampires!Aliens!Dinosaurs!- Hellogoodbye"

none of that is punk rock, you know just so you know.

Do you realize I don't give a damn? About the music I mean. And I'm having a meeting for my conformation this Tuesday.

[MuseofMayhem16]

I can see what you are trying to say, but disagree. I think you believe in God and you feel as though you aren't sure why he's letting things go on.

Also, if you don't give a shit about the catholic church, you wouldn't be worried about getting confirmed. At your age, you'd be forced to get confirmed and that's that and you wouldn't what it intentions were, you'd shrug it of as bullshit, you I believe you do care with that Religion.

All and all, I think you wanna believe but you are just to confused to know what's right and what's just random stuff peole put in God's mouth. You want to know what he really ment and what he really said.

All and all, I can relate, I'm at the same stage of life that you are.

O__O Holy fudge, he's right. At least...That's a pretty close thing to what I'm thinking.

[Jra1]

not 100% true
there is 1 unforgivable sin in the bible. if you denounce the existance of the holy spirit, you can NEVER be saved. ever. you can say or do anything else and be forgiven, but the second you deny the holy spirit, youre doomed to hell no matter what and you will never be forgiven.


thats assuming the bible isnt a racist load of shit.... which it is... so who really cares.

but if you're begging forgiveness you must beleive in God...

my family is plastic-catholic, born into it but dont practise... i really couldnt care if God existed either way, having sensible morals is enough imo, i dont plan on killing anyone or stealing anything, ill do whatever i want as long as it only effects me and even if that isnt enough ill die without regret.

[Shoes]

I think that his point was that if you don't find God at 16, you shouldn't feel like a sinning monster or whatever, cuz you eventually will come to more of an understanding of life and stuff. Well...tho it depends on whether you're open to understand and not just say "fuck everything I don't give a damn"
I'm a catholic and have been all my life and did my confirmation and all, and even so there's a lot of the bible and stuff I don't believe in. I don't feel like a hypocrite cuz I feel that the ultimate point is not what you believe in or not, but what your actions are, not just because religion or society say it's right or wrong, but because of what you feel.
In my whole family we incorporate aspects of buddhism and even hinduism (yes, strange for a hispanic family, but whatever), but in any case, I think that if your moral codes aren't strong enough, you need religion to keep you straight. If you're fine w/o religion and still consider yourself a good person, then it's because you have gone past the necessity of religion.
Oh, and the reason why so much shit goes around is because stuff happens for a reason that our puny little minds can't really comprehend. Some person x could get HIV and it's like "why is this happening to me?" but then that person goes and joins HIV awareness campaigns to help other people from falling in that same situation, so there, he saved a bunch of people. I know it sounds overly simplistic, but that's how stuff works
Hmm I can kindof see what you mean. And I do agree that you shouldn't feel like you're going to Hell, but at the the same time if you're really worried about you feel and where you are at that moment you should speak to someone who has had that kind of experience. Not just think fuck it, I can repent in a few years when I'm feeling it more.

[Scott Weber]

I hope you don't think that Christianity/Catholicism is all about hating gay people and bashing interracial relationships and that's your reason for denouncing Christ. That's not Christianity. That's an extreme radical conservative view that is often mis-associated with Christianity.

If God let everyone live, what kind of world would this be? You're asking for a utopia in which there are no consequences for our actions. No deaths. How would this be a society? Every death is unjust to somebody, and where does the blame end up? People blame God for everything. Why did he let my daddy kill himself? Why would God do that to me? Well, your daddy was given a gift from God, the power of choice. He chose to live/end his life like that. Most deaths are consequences of choices we've made, not just Americans, but everyone. That is a gift from God, one that people often choose to abuse - but I know I'm thankful I have the power of choice in my life.

[RememberFminus2]

I hope you don't think that Christianity/Catholicism is all about hating gay people and bashing interracial relationships and that's your reason for denouncing Christ. That's not Christianity. That's an extreme radical conservative view that is often mis-associated with Christianity.

If God let everyone live, what kind of world would this be? You're asking for a utopia in which there are no consequences for our actions. No deaths. How would this be a society? Every death is unjust to somebody, and where does the blame end up? People blame God for everything. Why did he let my daddy kill himself? Why would God do that to me? Well, your daddy was given a gift from God, the power of choice. He chose to live/end his life like that. Most deaths are consequences of choices we've made, not just Americans, but everyone. That is a gift from God, one that people often choose to abuse - but I know I'm thankful I have the power of choice in my life.



i fail to see how a poor 3 year old african child who is starving to death is guitly of anything. and i fail to see how him dieing is in anyways justfiable

[Scott Weber]

i fail to see how a poor 3 year old african child who is starving to death is guitly of anything. and i fail to see how him dieing is in anyways justfiable
Any child who has not stared God in the face and denied him will not be damned...I have always believed that. So what do you want? We do not live in a utopia. People get sick. People die. God allows it because he's allowed us to live our lives with complete freedom. That has resulted in some amazing things and also some horrible things...both consequences of God creating the earth and leaving it alone to be whatever it may be.

[RememberFminus2]

Any child who has not stared God in the face and denied him will not be damned...I have always believed that. So what do you want? We do not live in a utopia. People get sick. People die. God allows it because he's allowed us to live our lives with complete freedom. That has resulted in some amazing things and also some horrible things...both consequences of God creating the earth and leaving it alone to be whatever it may be.

hmm yea i understand. i just cant find myself able to forgive a higher being for letting people suffer. what do i want a utpoia? yes.

[Scott Weber]

hmm yea i understand. i just cant find myself able to forgive a higher being for letting people suffer. what do i want a utpoia? yes.
I don't want a utopia. That would be awful. What is pleasure without a chance of pain? How can we appreciate beauty without imperfections? It's like that Twilight Zone where the guy dies and goes to heaven, and everything is perfect, he wins every game of cards, he gets everything he wants, it's perfect weather every day, and so he asks God to visit hell because he's bored...and God says "This is hell."

[RememberFminus2]

I don't want a utopia. That would be awful. What is pleasure without a chance of pain? How can we appreciate beauty without imperfections? It's like that Twilight Zone where the guy dies and goes to heaven, and everything is perfect, he wins every game of cards, he gets everything he wants, it's perfect weather every day, and so he asks God to visit hell because he's bored...and God says "This is hell."


i think ill take the inconvience of not being able to enjoy a game of cards, over letting an innocent child suffer. i would rather not my pleasure be at the expense of the innocent. it just seems wrong.

[Scott Weber]

i think ill take the inconvience of not being able to enjoy a game of cards, over letting an innocent child suffer. i would rather not my pleasure be at the expense of the innocent. it just seems wrong.
You're missing the entire point. How would you be able to enjoy anything in life if everything was perfect? What would make you appreciate anything? ANYTHING? Life would be a nightmare if every single thing went our way for every single person (which is impossible, which is why a utopia cannot exist, or come anywhere close)

[FondestMemory]

there's a lot more about christianity that made me turn from it than judging gays and various others.

yeah, we have choice. just like i choose to not believe in god.

my girlfriend came down with cancer when she was 16. she beat it. then got it again on her 21st birthday. never in her life has she done anything putting herself first. never once has she turned away from anybody. she has been nothing but kind and caring and loving her entire life. but yet, now for the second time in her 23 years she's battling for her life against one of the most difficult oppenents ever.

i'm sorry, maybe it's just me being a little personal, but if there is a god and it's his choice to let somebody like her go through something like that, not once, but twice, then he can suck my fucking dick and he doesn't deserve my worship and praise.

but as we've already established, that's my choice that i'm able to make.

[Scott Weber]

there's a lot more about christianity that made me turn from it than judging gays and various others.

yeah, we have choice. just like i choose to not believe in god.

my girlfriend came down with cancer when she was 16. she beat it. then got it again on her 21st birthday. never in her life has she done anything putting herself first. never once has she turned away from anybody. she has been nothing but kind and caring and loving her entire life. but yet, now for the second time in her 23 years she's battling for her life against one of the most difficult oppenents ever.

i'm sorry, maybe it's just me being a little personal, but if there is a god and it's his choice to let somebody like her go through something like that, not once, but twice, then he can suck my fucking dick and he doesn't deserve my worship and praise.

but as we've already established, that's my choice that i'm able to make.
Of course you're welcome to choice, I'm not going to sit here and judge you, that'd be horrible. That's terrible about your girlfriend. Sometimes we are all tested in the hardest ways...again, I have to go back to the wish for a utopia thing though. But I'd rather not get into it with you because of how personal the situation is.

[FondestMemory]

Of course you're welcome to choice, I'm not going to sit here and judge you, that'd be horrible. That's terrible about your girlfriend. Sometimes we are all tested in the hardest ways...again, I have to go back to the wish for a utopia thing though. But I'd rather not get into it with you because of how personal the situation is.

it's not that i wish for a utopia. cause i was an atheist long before i even met her. but i used to work as an emt for a year and saw some shit that i can't imagine anybody wanting to put anybody through. too many bad things happening to good people while the bad people run away scott free. i don't expect a higher being to bring utopia, but if there were one, balance would be nice.

[Scott Weber]

it's not that i wish for a utopia. cause i was an atheist long before i even met her. but i used to work as an emt for a year and saw some shit that i can't imagine anybody wanting to put anybody through. too many bad things happening to good people while the bad people run away scott free. i don't expect a higher being to bring utopia, but if there were one, balance would be nice.
What sort of balance do you wish for? Even though people live and die, anyone can gain redemption in Christianity. That's one thing that I've always considered about it...if you accept God, you have nothing to lose (if there is no God) and everything to gain. If you deny God, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose (if there is a God).

[FondestMemory]

What sort of balance do you wish for? Even though people live and die, anyone can gain redemption in Christianity. That's one thing that I've always considered about it...if you accept God, you have nothing to lose (if there is no God) and everything to gain. If you deny God, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose (if there is a God).

but if you deny god, you really have nothing to win or lose. worst case scenario, you're wrong and go somewhere that you don't believe in anyway, so it's not like you're afraid of it.

i gave it a fair shot though. just wasn't for me. and at one point my closest friends were extremely born again religious. and i saw how they lived, refusing to do things they knew they enjoyed solely because of their new found faith. that just isn't me. not doing little shit that doesn't hurt anybody just because 'god' doesn't want me to? just didn't work for me.

i mean, i'm not arguing, or trying to sell anything. i understand it's everybody's choice. i would never ever try to talk anybody out of believing in god. nor would i look down on anybody or turn away from anybody for the same reason.

sadly though, not all christians feel the same way about atheists. i'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it's hard to say you're in atheist in front of christians without them acting like you need to be fixed.

[Scott Weber]

but if you deny god, you really have nothing to win or lose. worst case scenario, you're wrong and go somewhere that you don't believe in anyway, so it's not like you're afraid of it.

i gave it a fair shot though. just wasn't for me. and at one point my closest friends were extremely born again religious. and i saw how they lived, refusing to do things they knew they enjoyed solely because of their new found faith. that just isn't me. not doing little shit that doesn't hurt anybody just because 'god' doesn't want me to? just didn't work for me.

i mean, i'm not arguing, or trying to sell anything. i understand it's everybody's choice. i would never ever try to talk anybody out of believing in god. nor would i look down on anybody or turn away from anybody for the same reason.

sadly though, not all christians feel the same way about atheists. i'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it's hard to say you're in atheist in front of christians without them acting like you need to be fixed.

Haha, yeah I hear you. That's messed up. I'm not here to judge you - that's not my place. What did your friends give up that they enjoyed? I live a seriously normal life and still believe in God. Salvation is easy to achieve. The rest are details. Not to deny their importance, but they are details.

[FondestMemory]

Haha, yeah I hear you. That's messed up. I'm not here to judge you - that's not my place. What did your friends give up that they enjoyed? I live a seriously normal life and still believe in God. Salvation is easy to achieve. The rest are details. Not to deny their importance, but they are details.

it was ridiculous. like, they wouldn't even curse. made me feel like the devil always because i just naturally drop f bombs like they're hot. they all quit drinking, which is no biggie. but the fact that they would talk about how much they missed drinking. not saying everybody has to drink, but to bitch about missing it and still not, only because of church. made no sense to me.

and they were all very anti-sex before marriage. a whole group of them. this was like six years ago, when we were all around 18-20. so, the couples were typical couples at that age, but wouldn't have sex. that lead to all the couples getting married ridiculously early. they'd never say so, but i'm convinced that if they were banging they'd have waited til the time was right. well, a bunch of them got married. and now, six years later, none of them are together anymore.

i understand they were extreme cases. and that most people are able to carry on a normal life and still have faith.

[cal1082]

i think those looking for answers should remember that for a Christian life on earth is just a fraction of a tenth of a % of reality. 70 years on earth is just a blip of time of infinity and the trials and pain you face on earth would nothing compared to those after death without Christ.

We might have a loved one come down with cancer or something else horrible and naturally would question why. What we fail to realize is life is made up of tests and there are always things to be thankful for when you face even the hardest parts of life.

[dai the flu]

i understand that something from the bible doesnt mean anything at all to an atheist, but when asking religious people for an answer, thats what you'll get. im not sure why people always blame god for bad things that happen.
here's a couple biblical references.
james 1:13 "when under trial, let no one say 'i am being tried by god.' for with evil things god cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone."
ecclesiastes 9:11 states that the authors noticed that the wise ones dont have food, understanding ones dont have riches and so on, but answers why - "time and unforeseen occurence befall us all"
luke 13:4 jesus himself mentions a current event at the time where innocent people got killed in an accident but states that those involved werent greater sinners than others. in other words, they didnt deserve what happened to them, it just did. it wasnt an act of god.

bad things happen, god doesnt cause them, its just a result of our own physical imperfections and the state of the world we live in.
on the other hand, god does recognize this and gives us a hope for a better future. 50 years of miserableness will feel like nothing compared to eternity without pain.

but again, thats for people that believe the bible. so dont bash me, im just stating the bibles answer to these questions.

[dai the flu]

and not all christian religions believe in the existence of a hell, or some other place of eternal torment.
ive seen that blanket statement thrown around here and its been really bothering me.

[cal1082]

and not all christian religions believe in the existence of a hell, or some other place of eternal torment.
ive seen that blanket statement thrown around here and its been really bothering me.

really? i didnt know this. what Christian religions don't believe in a hell or a place of seperation from Christ?

[Scott Weber]

really? i didnt know this. what Christian religions don't believe in a hell or a place of seperation from Christ?
yeah, i was wondering the same thing.

[dai the flu]

let me first of all say that for some reason, there's a lot of misconceptions about us which leads people to think we're not a serious respectable religion, but im one of jehovahs witnesses.
and we don't believe in hellfire, simply for the fact that the bible itself does not teach it.
the bible plainly states that nothing survives after death and the dead are not made to suffer for their sins. i can explain it more in depth if you'd like.
the actual teaching of hellfire has roots outside of christianity, whether it was adapted into todays christian religions as a way to control people and instill fear, i dont know. but its not a belief compatible with what the bible teaches.

[Scott Weber]

I know a decent amount about Jehovah's Witnesses and even though they may associate themselves with Christianity, others would not. I have some huge theological issues with that...faith.

[dai the flu]

why exactly would people not consider us christian?

[Scott Weber]

why exactly would people not consider us christian?
Becuase you deny key doctrines of Christianity...salvation by grace, the physical ressurection, the deity of Christ...

[dai the flu]

Becuase you deny key doctrines of Christianity...salvation by grace, the physical ressurection, the deity of Christ...

1. we believe jesus is god's son
2. we believe that jesus sacrifice made it possible for forgiveness of our sins, therefore faith in his sacrifice and living your life accordingly is what leads to salvation
3. yes we believe in the physical ressurection

in fact our whole life/religion is modeled after jesus life, trying our best to follow his example as closely as possible. i really dont understand how we can be considered "unchristian".

[Scott Weber]

1. we believe jesus is god's son
2. we believe that jesus sacrifice made it possible for forgiveness of our sins, therefore faith in his sacrifice and living your life accordingly is what leads to salvation
3. yes we believe in the physical ressurection

in fact our whole life/religion is modeled after jesus life, trying our best to follow his example as closely as possible. i really dont understand how we can be considered "unchristian".
Then you don't believe in everything the Watchtower teaches. You believe Jesus is Christ's son, but do you believe that he is worthy of worship and praise as a deity? Don't even get me started on salvation...144,000? That's it?

[Scott Weber]

7. The Holy Spirit. JWs deny the deity of the third person of the Trinity, as either God or as a person; they claim that the Holy Spirit is only an impersonal "active force of Almighty God which moves His servants to do His will"

6. Resurrection of Christ . JWs deny the bodily resurrection of Christ through their teaching that the body of Christ was annihilated by God -- not risen -- but rather a new one was created three days after His death. This they call the "resurrection" of Christ. Thus, Jesus was "resurrected" as a "glorious spirit creature" and does not now have a glorified physical body. Instead, they claim Jesus arose spiritually and only "materialized" at various times after His resurrection so He could be seen alive.

4. Jesus Christ. Since JWs do not believe in the Trinity, they also do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.


1. Source of Authority. JWs claim the Bible as their final authority, but Russell's writings, especially Studies in the Scriptures, are considered "the light of the Scriptures." JWs have their own translation of the Scriptures (New World Translation, published in 1961), which reflects the binding interpretations of the group's leaders. The JWs' New World Translation greatly perverts the Scriptures to avoid placing themselves under the judgment of God (cf. Jn. 1:1; 8:58; I Tim. 2:6; Ac. 10:36; Col. 1:16-17; 2:9-10; etc.). Hence, the leader's interpretation of the Bible, not the Bible itself, is the final authority of JWs. The Watchtower magazine is one of the JWs main sources of doctrine, and is considered authoritative by its members.


These are some things I take major issue with.

[dai the flu]

Then you don't believe in everything the Watchtower teaches. You believe Jesus is Christ's son, but do you believe that he is worthy of worship and praise as a deity? Don't even get me started on salvation...144,000? That's it?

no i believe that jesus christ is gods son. two seperate beings. jesus is definately in an exalted position and worthy of our respect (big understatement). philippians states that 'in the name of jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth.'
but being worshipped as god himself? no.
jesus himself said to satan 'it is god you must worship, it is to him alone you must render sacred service'
and yes, the number 144,000 factors into our beliefs but that is by no means the limit of people that can come into an eternal relationship with god and have a place in his future purposes.

[Scott Weber]

Dai:

I don't want to see specific quotes from the bible pulled out of context and ignoring others that state otherwise. I posted a big thing that I take issue with and that's that - I'm not going to argue with you about it (I've done it before and it gets nowhere) I do personally believe that JW is a cult (no offense) and is misleading and misinterpretive of the word of God. I do believe JW have their hearts in the right place, I just feel they are misled. But that's not for me to judge, and you have to choose your own path.

[dai the flu]

7. The Holy Spirit. JWs deny the deity of the third person of the Trinity, as either God or as a person; they claim that the Holy Spirit is only an impersonal "active force of Almighty God which moves His servants to do His will"

6. Resurrection of Christ . JWs deny the bodily resurrection of Christ through their teaching that the body of Christ was annihilated by God -- not risen -- but rather a new one was created three days after His death. This they call the "resurrection" of Christ. Thus, Jesus was "resurrected" as a "glorious spirit creature" and does not now have a glorified physical body. Instead, they claim Jesus arose spiritually and only "materialized" at various times after His resurrection so He could be seen alive.

4. Jesus Christ. Since JWs do not believe in the Trinity, they also do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.


1. Source of Authority. JWs claim the Bible as their final authority, but Russell's writings, especially Studies in the Scriptures, are considered "the light of the Scriptures." JWs have their own translation of the Scriptures (New World Translation, published in 1961), which reflects the binding interpretations of the group's leaders. The JWs' New World Translation greatly perverts the Scriptures to avoid placing themselves under the judgment of God (cf. Jn. 1:1; 8:58; I Tim. 2:6; Ac. 10:36; Col. 1:16-17; 2:9-10; etc.). Hence, the leader's interpretation of the Bible, not the Bible itself, is the final authority of JWs. The Watchtower magazine is one of the JWs main sources of doctrine, and is considered authoritative by its members.


These are some things I take major issue with.

1. we can scripturally back up our beliefs on the holy spirit. can you?
2. we believe that jesus was resurrected and ascended as a spirit person to heaven. 1 cor. 15:50 "now this i say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god" physical bodies can't ascend to heaven.
3. i dont believe that jesus is god. how could god 'send his son' to earth, 'resurrect him', jesus claims that 'the father is greater than i am', jesus claims that he doesnt know but only god knows the time of judgement, and on and on and on...how could this be so if god and jesus were the same?
4. and since you take issue with the new world translation of the bible, i will from now on, only use the king james version.

[dai the flu]

ok scott, thats fine. i was typing my reply when you posted your last one. if you want to drop it, lets drop it.

[Scott Weber]

1. we can scripturally back up our beliefs on the holy spirit. can you?
2. we believe that jesus was resurrected and ascended as a spirit person to heaven. 1 cor. 15:50 "now this i say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god" physical bodies can't ascend to heaven.
3. i dont believe that jesus is god. how could god 'send his son' to earth, 'resurrect him', jesus claims that 'the father is greater than i am', jesus claims that he doesnt know but only god knows the time of judgement, and on and on and on...how could this be so if god and jesus were the same?
4. and since you take issue with the new world translation of the bible, i will from now on, only use the king james version.

I refuse to discuss religious beliefs with somebody who is smug and condescending. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise or trivialize what you believe in, I'm merely stating my position.

[dai the flu]

I refuse to discuss religious beliefs with somebody who is smug and condescending. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise or trivialize what you believe in, I'm merely stating my position.
how am i being smug and condescending?
i state what i believe, then i post scriptural reasons for my beliefs.
you claim im taking things out of context, yet offer no example to prove it. you copy and paste things from notorious anti-JW websites that have no real basis, and basicly tell me im part of an unchristian cult for doing what? actually reading the bible instead of using it as decoration.
maybe i am smug and condescending, but you know what? i can back up what i believe. that should tell you something.

[Scott Weber]

how am i being smug and condescending?
i state what i believe, then i post scriptural reasons for my beliefs.
you claim im taking things out of context, yet offer no example to prove it. you copy and paste things from notorious anti-JW websites that have no real basis, and basicly tell me im part of an unchristian cult for doing what? actually reading the bible instead of using it as decoration.
maybe i am smug and condescending, but you know what? i can back up what i believe. that should tell you something.
It tells me that you're well-versed in a religion that is fundamentally wrong in my mind. It's also something I haven't talked about in 2 years, in which I had a long and informative discussion about it with somebody who works here and is a JW - and it was civilized. I learned a lot, but I've forgotten it since, it's not like I have over-aggressive JW coming down my throat on a daily basis. I'm at work and I don't have time to bust out my bible and remember everything I learned in my HS apologetics class. I don't even associate myself personally with the Christian faith anymore because of how corrupt the church is and how ridiculous some Christians act towards others. So yeah, i do need to "brush up" on my skills (not going to church for 5 years doesn't help), but I'm sure the real Christian thing to do is to go on the attack, like you did! And you wonder why JW are so hated for pushing their beliefs on people. That should tell YOU something. Go ruin somebody's dinner by knocking on their door. See, I can be smug too.

[dai the flu]

It tells me that you're well-versed in a religion that is fundamentally wrong in my mind. It's also something I haven't talked about in 2 years, in which I had a long and informative discussion about it with somebody who works here and is a JW - and it was civilized. I learned a lot, but I've forgotten it since, it's not like I have over-aggressive JW coming down my throat on a daily basis. I'm at work and I don't have time to bust out my bible and remember everything I learned in my HS apologetics class. I don't even associate myself personally with the Christian faith anymore because of how corrupt the church is and how ridiculous some Christians act towards others. So yeah, i do need to "brush up" on my skills (not going to church for 5 years doesn't help), but I'm sure the real Christian thing to do is to go on the attack, like you did! And you wonder why JW are so hated for pushing their beliefs on people. That should tell YOU something. Go ruin somebody's dinner by knocking on their door. See, I can be smug too.

im an over-agressive JW, i went on the attack, and pushed my beliefs on you. ok, lets review.

1. i stated not all christians believe in hell, JW's as an example.
2. you told me JW's werent christian, saying you had problems with our "faith"
3. i asked why.
4. you list things about JW's that you disagree with, beliefs you dont feel are christian, and claim we're a misleading cult.
5. i answer each of your points with actual bible answers.

and now, you say im attacking and pushing my beliefs.

does anyone else think this is ridiculous?

[Scott Weber]

haha, you missed the point where you questioned the legitimacy of my personal faith, then saying that "that should show you something" when I didn't have time to research how to effectively respond to your claims. People should see how ridiculous this is.

[dai the flu]

haha, you missed the point where you questioned the legitimacy of my personal faith, then saying that "that should show you something" when I didn't have time to research how to effectively respond to your claims. People should see how ridiculous this is.
fine scott. i apologize. i just think you should be ready to defend your stance before you make accusations.
i do have one final question. you dont have to answer if you dont want to. and anybody else reading can answer if they want.
its not so much a question of doctrine, but simply a rational question.

when jesus said 'cramped and narrow is the road to life, and few are the ones finding it'...

do you really think the largest, most influential, and most powerful christian religion in the entire world could be classified as "few"?

[Scott Weber]

fine scott. i apologize. i just think you should be ready to defend your stance before you make accusations.
i do have one final question. you dont have to answer if you dont want to. and anybody else reading can answer if they want.
its not so much a question of doctrine, but simply a rational question.

when jesus said 'cramped and narrow is the road to life, and few are the ones finding it'...

do you really think the largest, most influential, and most powerful christian religion in the entire world could be classified as "few"?
Who was Jesus saying that to? I'd like to see the reference. Remember that most books in the Bible are letters written to specific groups for a specific reason. When Jesus said that, there were far less Christians per population than there are globally today - especially with how heavily they were being persecuted, which is what likely spurred this comment (I still need to see the reference). Jesus's comments are important, but they are also a snapshot in time, and we must take them in context with the current situation.

And I don't recall accusing you of anything. What I did was state my personal beliefs. I didn't single you out or judge you personally.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Thank God I'm an atheist.

[Jra1]

Agnosticism all the way.

"who gives a fuck?"

[we are cured]

two different people can barely agree on one thing, let alone an entire doctrine of beliefs. what makes anyone think that an entire faith based on a book written by many different people can be a consisent form of belief? point is that if you believe in x god with a b and c values, and another person believes in x god with a and d values, who cares..the fact is that you both believe in something, leave it at that.

seriously though religion to me is like the kid in the class who thinks he knows everything..ask him a question and you'll get an answer. until you find out later that the reply was substantiated on nothing.

[Scott Weber]

and I never got an answer to my response to him anyways.

[seconds]

Agnosticism all the way.

"who gives a fuck?"
haha, I am to, but religion and the idea of God gets to me and I start thinking. I just don't know anymore.

[normalgene]

Meh, Organized religion really just drives me up the wall. More people have died in the name of god than for any other reason. Believe what you believe but accept what other other people believe too.

[Scott Weber]

Meh, Organized religion really just drives me up the wall. More people have died in the name of god than for any other reason. Believe what you believe but accept what other other people believe too.
Do you feel organized religion DOESN'T accept what other people believe? Because that's anti-christian to do that in my mind. All people should be accepting, regardless.

[Jared Kaufman]

Becuase you deny key doctrines of Christianity...salvation by grace, the physical ressurection, the deity of Christ...
1). we believe all people that call on the name of God and do his will according to what's stated in the bible and serve him the way he wants to be served will be saved.

2). we believe jesus ressurected lazarus. and we also believe that there will be a future (physical) ressurection of the righteous and unrighteous after the world is cleared of all the wicked people and its problems.

3). as dai the flu mentioned, we don't believe that jesus is god or that he is worthy of worship. we recognize that jesus did come to earth and die for our sins. we believe it was only through his ransom sacrifice that we have the ability to be saved again and have god's favor; it was his blood that atoned for adam and eve's sin, which is why the world is the way it is now.
Then you don't believe in everything the Watchtower teaches. You believe Jesus is Christ's son, but do you believe that he is worthy of worship and praise as a deity? Don't even get me started on salvation...144,000? That's it?
1). i answered what you stated about jesus above.

2). what are your thoughts on the 144,00? who are they? why are they mentioned in the book of revelation?
7. The Holy Spirit. JWs deny the deity of the third person of the Trinity, as either God or as a person; they claim that the Holy Spirit is only an impersonal "active force of Almighty God which moves His servants to do His will"

6. Resurrection of Christ . JWs deny the bodily resurrection of Christ through their teaching that the body of Christ was annihilated by God -- not risen -- but rather a new one was created three days after His death. This they call the "resurrection" of Christ. Thus, Jesus was "resurrected" as a "glorious spirit creature" and does not now have a glorified physical body. Instead, they claim Jesus arose spiritually and only "materialized" at various times after His resurrection so He could be seen alive.

4. Jesus Christ. Since JWs do not believe in the Trinity, they also do not believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.


1. Source of Authority. JWs claim the Bible as their final authority, but Russell's writings, especially Studies in the Scriptures, are considered "the light of the Scriptures." JWs have their own translation of the Scriptures (New World Translation, published in 1961), which reflects the binding interpretations of the group's leaders. The JWs' New World Translation greatly perverts the Scriptures to avoid placing themselves under the judgment of God (cf. Jn. 1:1; 8:58; I Tim. 2:6; Ac. 10:36; Col. 1:16-17; 2:9-10; etc.). Hence, the leader's interpretation of the Bible, not the Bible itself, is the final authority of JWs. The Watchtower magazine is one of the JWs main sources of doctrine, and is considered authoritative by its members.


These are some things I take major issue with.
1). yes, we believe the holy spirit is "god's active force" and what he uses to make something happen.

2). i also agree with what dai the flu stated in regards to the fact that a physical body / person cannot enter the spirt realm and let alone see god and live.

3). our translation of the bible is everything you can read in the king james version, but just in modern english so it's easier to understand. the context/meaning hasn't been changed, but they've replaced words that we don't use in our language anymore with words that we do. or things have been rephrased so our society can understand it better. we actually don't believe the watchtower is authorative, but just something that focuses on certain bible topics each issue. if you look at an issue of the watchtower, all the points have scriptures cited to them and where the belief stems from.
no i believe that jesus christ is gods son. two seperate beings. jesus is definately in an exalted position and worthy of our respect (big understatement). philippians states that 'in the name of jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth.'
but being worshipped as god himself? no.
jesus himself said to satan 'it is god you must worship, it is to him alone you must render sacred service'
and yes, the number 144,000 factors into our beliefs but that is by no means the limit of people that can come into an eternal relationship with god and have a place in his future purposes.
well put.
Dai:

I don't want to see specific quotes from the bible pulled out of context and ignoring others that state otherwise. I posted a big thing that I take issue with and that's that - I'm not going to argue with you about it (I've done it before and it gets nowhere) I do personally believe that JW is a cult (no offense) and is misleading and misinterpretive of the word of God. I do believe JW have their hearts in the right place, I just feel they are misled. But that's not for me to judge, and you have to choose your own path.
i have no idea how you see us as a cult. there are 6 million plus JWs currently in the world. JWs are preaching in 280something plus lands. JWs are preaching in some 400 languages. our religion is all over the world. anyone, and i mean anyone (any race, gender, ethnicity, walk of life, etc). can come to any of our meetings. anyone can go on our official website. anyone can find out what we do. nothing we have to say and nothing we do is in secret. we don't have one authoritarian leader. we are not exclusive.
It tells me that you're well-versed in a religion that is fundamentally wrong in my mind. It's also something I haven't talked about in 2 years, in which I had a long and informative discussion about it with somebody who works here and is a JW - and it was civilized. I learned a lot, but I've forgotten it since, it's not like I have over-aggressive JW coming down my throat on a daily basis. I'm at work and I don't have time to bust out my bible and remember everything I learned in my HS apologetics class. I don't even associate myself personally with the Christian faith anymore because of how corrupt the church is and how ridiculous some Christians act towards others. So yeah, i do need to "brush up" on my skills (not going to church for 5 years doesn't help), but I'm sure the real Christian thing to do is to go on the attack, like you did! And you wonder why JW are so hated for pushing their beliefs on people. That should tell YOU something. Go ruin somebody's dinner by knocking on their door. See, I can be smug too.
in all honesty, scott -- i didn't see him get smug, push his beliefs down your throat, or go on the attack. and i guess the pushing our beliefs on someone comment is in regards to the door-to-door ministry that JWs engage in; well, i'm curious when people bring that up. what do you think of jesus and his ministry? he went from door-to-door. he discussed his beliefs any chance he got with whomever. he also commanded us to preach, so i don't understand people's issue with that. i can definitely understand if they're too busy to talk or don't care to talk, then we move on and go to the next person. i guess i should explain it this way. JWs, one, just want to encourage bible reading and they also just enjoy spiritual discussions. they are by no means trying to convert anyone and don't get a prize for doing so. also, they feel they have a message that could save lives or help someone get through tough issues that they may be enduring, hence the reason they preach with such earnesty.

[Scott Weber]

I will discuss these things with you via AIM Jared, like we did about a year and a half ago. I don't feel this is the forum for it, plus I have a lot of questions that I know you'll be able to answer. And the moment he got smug was when he said:
we can scripturally back up our beliefs on the holy spirit. can you?

maybe i am smug and condescending, but you know what? i can back up what i believe. that should tell you something.
I'm not interested in making this a public discussion when it's already soured. Hit me up on AIM, Jared.

[Jared Kaufman]

I will discuss these things with you via AIM Jared, like we did about a year and a half ago. I don't feel this is the forum for it, plus I have a lot of questions that I know you'll be able to answer. And the moment he got smug was when he said:


I'm not interested in making this a public discussion when it's already soured. Hit me up on AIM, Jared.
Haha. I know. I just responded here so I didn't forget my points until we talked. And I didn't notice the part(s) where you thought he was being smug. I can't believe it's been that long since we had that talk, but I look forward to our next one. Talk to you soon, bro.

[dai the flu]

im providing you with bible-based answers to each question/issue you have with us.
if you tell me im wrong, if you dont agree with what i say, then at least have something, anything, some kind of basis for WHY im wrong.
telling me im fundamentally wrong without giving me some kind of explanation does nothing. it almost demands a smug response.

[Scott Weber]

im providing you with bible-based answers to each question/issue you have with us.
if you tell me im wrong, if you dont agree with what i say, then at least have something, anything, some kind of basis for WHY im wrong.
telling me im fundamentally wrong without giving me some kind of explanation does nothing. it almost demands a smug response.
Ironically enough, I provided you a rational response to your last post and you ignored it. I've since moved on.

[dai the flu]

im sorry i missed your response altogether.
i was quoting from jesus' sermon on the mount. the context shows it does have an application today. he follows with the thought that not everyone calling on him will be saved, their works would show who they really are and they'd be judged accordingly. since we have yet to face that judgment, its only reasonable to conclude that the 'narrow gate' with 'few finding it' also applies to today as well.
jesus actually gave a lot of signs to look for when identifying his true followers.
one of those was after jesus refused to be made king, wanting nothing to do with worldly governmental power, he said his followers would be 'no part of the world, just as i am no part of the world'.
now how many religions today stay neutral, and dont get involved in politics?

[Scott Weber]

im sorry i missed your response altogether.
i was quoting from jesus' sermon on the mount. the context shows it does have an application today. he follows with the thought that not everyone calling on him will be saved, their works would show who they really are and they'd be judged accordingly. since we have yet to face that judgment, its only reasonable to conclude that the 'narrow gate' with 'few finding it' also applies to today as well.
jesus actually gave a lot of signs to look for when identifying his true followers.
one of those was after jesus refused to be made king, wanting nothing to do with worldly governmental power, he said his followers would be 'no part of the world, just as i am no part of the world'.
now how many religions today stay neutral, and dont get involved in politics?
that can be interpreted several different ways, though, which is why we will never get anywhere. not everyone calling upon jesus will be saved could also mean that those who begged forgiveness for selfish reasons with unpure hearts would not be saved (deathbed wishes, etc.)

[dai the flu]

that can be interpreted several different ways, though, which is why we will never get anywhere. not everyone calling upon jesus will be saved could also mean that those who begged forgiveness for selfish reasons with unpure hearts would not be saved (deathbed wishes, etc.)
though i agree that deathbed repentence is fairly pathetic and worthless, im pretty sure thats not what jesus had in mind. or anything of the sort.
the full text is:
"not everyone saying to me, 'lord, lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my father who is in the heavens will. many will say to me in that day, 'lord, lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' and yet then i will confess to them: i never knew you. get away from me you workers of lawlessness."

i think thats a fairly obvious reference to those professing faith in god and putting on a good show of being religious and holy, but in actuality not living up to gods standards. not practicing what they preach. they're described in 2 timothy 3:5 as "having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power".
i think its interesting that most people that hate organized religion have that same complaint. hypocrisy in religion has completely turned people away.

[Skacialist]

hmm, I'm athiest, I believe in no god, but the words of a religion can be inspiring to me.
Gods dont appeal to me, but the moral views of a few religions do, and thats how I live my life

[lunalovesyou]

imm catholic, and i hate skirts. >-<...
my grandmother gets mad when i read harry potter instead of the bible. and she says i listen to the devil music (er... fall out boy is not the devil!).
i do believe in my religion though. the books you read, the music you listen to, or how you dress does not choose you religion.

[RU freak]

The reason God isn't helping out in war because God gives us free will to do whatever we want so we can leave him at any time if he didn't we would be like robots without any thoughts or any sense of emotion. Oh yeah I'm Christian and I go to a home church it's a lot different from those legalistic churches where you have to dress a certain way and say only good stuff. In my home church there's really deep relationships with other people and you can talk about anything with anyone which makes me feel a lot better because they don't judge. I also listen to punk and it hasn't made me any different in my relationship with God, just know if you walk away from God you can always come back he did give you free will so do whatever you want. In my opinion I don't think you've experienced who God really is (just my opinion though so please don't get offended).

[Mrs.Sweeny Todd]

agree'd

[spitzfire321]

I just need to say this, here and now. I'm catholic, but I don't feel like I'm truly am. I listen to punk music, dress differently from what the church are. I can't pretend to be someone I'm not. I can't dress up in some perfect skirt and say I'm holy.
This year I'm getting conformation, and I'm scared shitless. How am I supposed to be confirmed if I feel like I don't believe in God anymore? I know he promised to leave us be, but can't he see when his people need him more than ever? Can't he see that we've screwed ourselves into a corner with Iraq? If we pull out, they may drop another attack on the US, but if we keep fighting, then more innocent people are going to die. Why can't God interfere again? Why let us suffer?
I'm told that God doesn't like something different from what he created. But that truly doesn't sound like what God would say, only something from the mouths of adults of older generations. They're the ones who don't except gay people, interracial marriage or those other controversies. It makes me so mad that they can't get the idea that things change. They can't just move on.
I'm sorry I'm rambling on like I am, but has been in my head forever. It's makes me sick everytime my mom mentions church school or anything holy. I get nervous and don't talk for a while. I'm terrified to the point of crazyness. And I can't tell my parents, cause it would just kill them to know that their daughter doesn't believe in God.
There, I said it. I do not believe in God anymore. If he really cared about anyone, he'd help us. He wouldn't just watch us die like we are now. If I stood in the middle of church and said "Fuck" over and over, do you think he would banish me to hell? We all die, but I don't believe there is such a place of heaven and hell. I'm sorry, but I just don't.
Okay, I'm done.


you and i are going through the same situation [ i made up my mind yesterday ]. simple solution: be a non conformist. i WAS a catholic, but i got tired of all the shit about gays are going to hell, goths are satanists [ not true !!! ], etc etc. and besides, i didnt do any of the shit like confession... sooo... i decided: fuck authority and sterotypes im a non conformist [ if you cant talk to your mom, make her listen or get your ass out of there ]... hope this helps you

' arma-goddamn-motherfucking-geddon ' marilyn manson

[isntnikione]

As someone mentioned (and you agreed), I think you believe in God, but you're very confused. I was raised Catholic too and found that I didn't feel my old church accurately represented my beliefs on what it means to be a Christian. Obviously this is something that matters to you or you wouldn't care, in which case I would suggest checking out some other churches of different denominations. When I found my current church (its part of the Newfrontiers churches, look online you might be able to find one near you), I was completely shocked to find that church could be so much fun, so loving, and so honest.. a church that wasn't full of hypocrisy. It was nothing like this really strict traditional rehearsed thing that I was used to, and I was so much better able to understand God and Christianity in a place like that.

You said that God can't exist because he allows suffering. Remember that God suffered just like we did, when he became a man through his son. He was mutilated and humiliated for us. He knows what it's like to feel alone and hurt, that's why the Bible says that in the lowest times, that's when the power of God is strongest, because he knows how bad our hurt is, how bad we need him. We might be too blind to see that what seems awful now could turn into something so much more beautiful later, like an estranged family that gets close again after a loved one dies, they all find each other again. It's a tragic instant but it reminds them that they love each other. You know what I mean? If God is good, he knows he can't save everyone, he knows that death is part of life and so do we. It has to be fair.

Also, about hypocritical Christians, I agree, I find it really annoying. Although I recently read something that opened my eyes... It was something in the Bible about how God doesn't try to reach for the richest people or the kindest, he reaches for the evilest, the worst, the biggest sinners. He tries to save those people. So yes, Christians do have this incentive to be good because they know of God's love... but at the same time, they are still people, who are flawed, who've done alot of wrong or have been through alot and they have a loooong way to go. Don't be discouraged though, I was used to dealing with alot of religious people who were complete hypocrites and would go to church one day and get wasted the next, but trust me, if you find a good strong church thats true to itself, you'll be seeing non of that. Not every Christian hates gays or rock music or whatever, and if they do, like I said, they've got a long way to go. Don't let them be the thing pushing you away from God or their beliefs be that, just pray or listen to your own heart and see how you feel.

Hope that helps you understand a bit.

[Big_Guy]

I'm obviously so late to this thread, but i'm gonna have to post a big "DUH"

religion is man made and a huge waste of time. if you need a "god" to give you comfort you are obviously a weak ass person. just go on living your life like you normally would, don't kill anybody and try not to break any other laws and you will be fine.

[Big_Guy]

and why do people say shit like "god does this and god does that for a reason and blah blah blah"

how the fuck do you know god exists? at least put in my opinion at the beginning of your posts

[Big_Guy]

Agnosticism all the way.

"who gives a fuck?"

yeah, this seems like a good mentality if everybody thought this way.

when people use their crazy dumbfuck beliefs to make desicions that affect other people in a negative way (gay marriage, abortion, etc.) that is not a good mentality.

[Alaina <3]

I think religion is good if you believe in it. I personally don't really care. I have a really hard time believing in God/Christianity, mainly because the Adam and Eve theory has so many holes in it. I mean, really, can two (supposedly) white people make every race, body type, and all that other stuff? No. And the fact that if you truly believe in that, then any person you have sex with is (at least kind of) related to you.

[Big_Guy]

the concept of a god itself is pretty sketchy, let alone all this adam and eve bullshit.


see, how many religions are there in the world? they can't possibly all be right, but they can all be and are wrong.

why can't people see this?

[argg_xo]

too much color in OP, didn't read 3 year old thread.

[4N6 science]

Religion is about faith and hope. Asking God to do what you want to prove himself is not going to happen. Just evaluate how you feel about religion and whether you have a relationship/want a relationship with God.

[ohheroine]

What if your parents don't give you a choice? What if they say that's just an excuse to be lazy? I hate it when they do that. I may be lazy but I know when I feel something is wrong.


they only say that cause they're afraid they'll go to hell for having an atheist daughter

[AlexEnglish]

you can dress however you want and worship whichever god you fucking please. god works in mysterious ways, don't try to understand it.

[chassmariee]

Organized religion is wack. You can love God without all that nonsense.

[bstthngunvrhd7]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you--I went to a Lutheran school from PK-8th and went to church from about age 3 or 4 to about last year, beginning of this year (I'm 23 now) and was baptized when I was 7 and got confirmed in 8th grade.
But in in the past few years, I've found myself drifting farther away from what the church stands for and just not enjoying going to church at all so I quit going about at least good 9 months ago. I didn't see the point in going and pretending that I believed it in my heart what I was there to listen to--I thought that was "worse" than not going at all.
I disagree with their stance on gay marriage--if we are supposed to accept everyone and whatnot, how can you discriminate against those whose love of their life just happens to be the same gender as them.
I also disagree with the whole you can't live together before marriage deal--I just remember that when I was still in middle school, my cousin and her fiancee (well now husband) tried to get married at the church that my family goes to but they weren't allowed to because they were living together before they were married and that it was "wrong" and I thought to myself that I knew people (friends of the family) who were living together with their significant other and were not married and I knew that they were not bad people, so it didn't make sense to me.
And the thing that got me the most about the church I went to was that everything was about "money money money"--all the time they were asking for money--at the beginning of the service elders and whatnot would get up and say that people need to think about giving more money--and to me, and especially in tough times like this, do not tell people that they NEED to give money--seriously, their offering could be their food money for the week or their gas money that gets them to their job. To me, church should be the LAST place where you should worry about money. Yes I understand the whole tithing thing, but you can still help out without giving money.

So I've just been coming to the conclusion that just being a good friend and family member and helping people out and being productive and kind and caring and the like is the way I will live my life.

[Waldorf]

lol this is a funny thread

[unionx]

Threadstarter, don't do something you don't want to. It's your life.

[ArtForLovers]

wow this thread was started a long time ago, but here is my two cents...
I was raised Catholic. Went to all the PSR classes, got confirmed and all that. But I never really felt liked I belonged. Sometimes I would be forced to believe in everything they believed in. Now I just believe in God. I don't call myself catholic or anything. I really try not to associate myself with any demonination. There are so many things that happen in this world that religion puts down. I try to love everyone as God loves everyone. That's how he would like it, religion just makes up all the other rules, such as homosexuals having "satanic influences" blablabla. Sounds like you are just mixed up in the religious world. I know that the world is messed up in war and shit, but God cannot control people. Only being influenced by him. He cannot phyisically stop a war, but the people can learn how to be civil and peaceful.
This is what I believe anyhow.