pick a slugger...

[mat1419]

you get to pick a slugger to build your team around...which do you get?

[bigmike]

i'll take ortiz. it's not like howards 22 and doing these things, so i discard the age difference.

[Scott Weber]

Yeah, isn't Howard like 27?

[Talib Scottie]

Ortiz hands down... (Go Yankees though...)

[KB3RG]

howards 26 will be 27 nov 19

[MrMet]

David Wright or Carlos Beltran:)

[Dirty Ernie]

howard plays the field

[mikeford]

howard plays the field

yeah poorly. david ortiz could do just as good a job as howard, he just doesnt have to. take off the homer glasses for once in your life.

[Dirty Ernie]

and now begins an ortiz for al mvp even though he doesn't play the field hijacking of this thread

[mikeford]

and now begins an ortiz for al mvp even though he doesn't play the field hijacking of this thread

who would you vote for... if not ortiz, then who?

[FondestMemory]

he's the clear cut mvp in the al. doesn't matter if he's not in the field. he's the most valuable player in the league.

[Scott Weber]

he's the clear cut mvp in the al. doesn't matter if he's not in the field. he's the most valuable player in the league.
easy.

[Dirty Ernie]

who would you vote for... if not ortiz, then who?


i'm a homer but i'm not a moron, ortiz is better then howard and deserves the al mvp...that being said howard deserves to be in contention for nl mvp

[bigmike]

howard plays the field
Yeah. Because he plays in the NL. If he were in the AL right now, no team in their right mind would play him regularly in the field.

and if you can't see that Ortiz is the AL MVP then your opinions on baseball are null and void.

If the defense was such a great aspect of it, then Ozzie Smith would've won MVP every year considering he was possibly the best defender in baseball history. Also, Andruw Jones should win it then this year, considering he's the best defensive player in the league.

Please, quit talking.

[mat1419]

yeah poorly. david ortiz could do just as good a job as howard, he just doesnt have to. take off the homer glasses for once in your life.

you don't need homer glasses to see howard has a better batting average, the same home runs, and close to the rbi total of ortiz with less men in front of him to hit in. plus he's 5 years younger and more athletic.

[mikeford]

how is he more athletic? because he plays the field poorly due to being in the national league? please tell me?


ps Ortiz is actually very good at picking balls over at 1b.

[mat1419]

how is he more athletic? because he plays the field poorly due to being in the national league? please tell me?


ps Ortiz is actually very good at picking balls over at 1b.

because he's 20 lbs heavier and can clearly run faster, dive farther, and jump higher.

[mikeford]

post 40 times or it didnt happen

[bigmike]

because he's 20 lbs heavier and can clearly run faster, dive farther, and jump higher.
is this track and field or is this baseball? please, dude stands at 1B and if he were in the AL he'd be DH'ing, no doubt. he's a younger Ortiz, but Ortiz is the AL MVP. I don't care if he rides a tricycle while fondling donkeys in right field. He's the MVP.

[Dirty Ernie]

i'm a homer but i'm not a moron, ortiz is better then howard and deserves the al mvp...that being said howard deserves to be in contention for nl mvp

Yeah. Because he plays in the NL. If he were in the AL right now, no team in their right mind would play him regularly in the field.

and if you can't see that Ortiz is the AL MVP then your opinions on baseball are null and void.

If the defense was such a great aspect of it, then Ozzie Smith would've won MVP every year considering he was possibly the best defender in baseball history. Also, Andruw Jones should win it then this year, considering he's the best defensive player in the league.

Please, quit talking.


see above

[Scott Weber]

You know what else? howard has ONE good season now under his belt. Nobody knows if he'll keep this up for the rest of his career. Ortiz has proved he's consistent and clutch. Howard hasn't proved shit except that he could be the next Adrian Beltre. If we're building a team around a guy, I want a vet who I KNOW will produce year in and year out.

[mat1419]

is this track and field or is this baseball? please, dude stands at 1B and if he were in the AL he'd be DH'ing, no doubt. he's a younger Ortiz, but Ortiz is the AL MVP. I don't care if he rides a tricycle while fondling donkeys in right field. He's the MVP.

and if i were building a team, i'd take the younger version of him who is 4 years ahead of Ortiz in hitting his stride and still hasn't hit his full upside. When Ortiz was this age, he couldn't hit over 20 home runs.

[allisterkid]

I pick Adam Dunn And Gone

[FondestMemory]

and if i were building a team, i'd take the younger version of him who is 4 years ahead of Ortiz in hitting his stride and still hasn't hit his full upside. When Ortiz was this age, he couldn't hit over 20 home runs.

but you're missing his point. ortiz has proven he can do it every season.

howard hasn't yet. the beltre comparison was perfect. he had a season like howard's having, then look how that's working out for him.

[mat1419]

You know what else? howard has ONE good season now under his belt. Nobody knows if he'll keep this up for the rest of his career. Ortiz has proved he's consistent and clutch. Howard hasn't proved shit except that he could be the next Adrian Beltre. If we're building a team around a guy, I want a vet who I KNOW will produce year in and year out.

this marks Ortiz's 3rd year in his career he has more than 31 home runs. i'm not exactly blown away by him yet. i'm not saying he's not great or that he won't keep it up, but he's not exactly a guy with 450 home runs on his career.

[bigmike]

and if i were building a team, i'd take the younger version of him who is 4 years ahead of Ortiz in hitting his stride and still hasn't hit his full upside. When Ortiz was this age, he couldn't hit over 20 home runs.
oh. because only playing over 100 games 2 times in his 6 seasons in minnesota doesn't have anything to do with that. Nah, who needs playing time? In his 10 games in 1999 he should've hit 85 homeruns, you're right.

please. shut it down.

[mikeford]

also until Ryan Howard has 15 career walkoff hits, ill take ortiz.

[mat1419]

but you're missing his point. ortiz has proven he can do it every season.

howard hasn't yet. the beltre comparison was perfect. he had a season like howard's having, then look how that's working out for him.

i just replied to the first part before i saw your post

and the beltre thing isn't valid at all...you're comparing a 6-4, 250 pound guys home run consistancy with a 5-11 220 pound guys consistency. might as well throw luis gonzalez and every other fluke little guy who had a lot of home runs in one year to a kid who's been a power hitter all through out the minor up through the majors.

[Scott Weber]

this marks Ortiz's 3rd year in his career he has more than 31 home runs. i'm not exactly blown away by him yet. i'm not saying he's not great or that he won't keep it up, but he's not exactly a guy with 450 home runs on his career.

It's actually his 4th year with over 31, and his 3rd year in a row with over 40 HRs. Above .287 in all those years. Get yo shit straight, son. Plus, who are you kidding? Ortiz is 30. Stop acting like he's 34 or something. Howard is turning 27 in 3 months, dude.

edit ANNNND Ortiz hit 31 hrs in 128 games when he was Howard's age. Your argument sucks.

[mat1419]

oh. because only playing over 100 games 2 times in his 6 seasons in minnesota doesn't have anything to do with that. Nah, who needs playing time? In his 10 games in 1999 he should've hit 85 homeruns, you're right.

please. shut it down.

fuck that...he had over 400 at bats two years in a row and had 20 and 31...not bad, but not exactly mind blowing. fact is he just didn't get his shit together until he had a ton of protection in the lineup and was close to 30.

[bigmike]

i just replied to the first part before i saw your post

and the beltre thing isn't valid at all...you're comparing a 6-4, 250 pound guys home run consistancy with a 5-11 220 pound guys consistency. might as well throw luis gonzalez and every other fluke little guy who had a lot of home runs in one year to a kid who's been a power hitter all through out the minor up through the majors.
suddenly you have to be 6'4" to be a homerun hitter?

uhh, size has nothing to do with consistency. Ken Griffey isn't 6'4" 260 and he's a proven homerun hitter.

[mat1419]

It's actually his 4th year with over 31, and his 3rd year in a row with over 40 HRs. Above .287 in all those years. Get yo shit straight, son. Plus, who are you kidding? Ortiz is 30. Stop acting like he's 34 or something. Howard is turning 27 in 3 months, dude.

ortiz is turning 31 a day before howard turns 27, and i apoligize profusely for being one year off. throws the whole argument out the window.

[Scott Weber]

i just replied to the first part before i saw your post

and the beltre thing isn't valid at all...you're comparing a 6-4, 250 pound guys home run consistancy with a 5-11 220 pound guys consistency. might as well throw luis gonzalez and every other fluke little guy who had a lot of home runs in one year to a kid who's been a power hitter all through out the minor up through the majors.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/kevin_maas_autograph.jpg

[bigmike]

fuck that...he had over 400 at bats two years in a row and had 20 and 31...not bad, but not exactly mind blowing. fact is he just didn't get his shit together until he had a ton of protection in the lineup and was close to 30.
HE DIDN'T HAVE A GOOD YEAR UNTIL HE STARTED GETTING 140+ GAMES A YEAR.

what the fuck. dudes need playing time to hit homeruns. and the fact that he didn't get any besides 2 years in minnesota shouldn't be held against him.

And why'd it take Ryan Howard this fucking long to get up in the big leagues? He's almost 27, dudes are into their prime by that age, not just making their full season debuts.

[Scott Weber]

ortiz is turning 31 a day before howard turns 27, and i apoligize profusely for being one year off. throws the whole argument out the window.
Actually, it kind of does considering you talked about how Ortiz couldn't do shit when he was Howard's age, which isn't true at all. This is such a dumb argument. There is NO contest here.

[mat1419]

suddenly you have to be 6'4" to be a homerun hitter?

uhh, size has nothing to do with consistency. Ken Griffey isn't 6'4" 260 and he's a proven homerun hitter.

and beltre was 5-11 and wasn't one. point is, beltre wasn't a home run hitter, then had one year, then went back to normal. he never was a home run guy before that. it's not a valid comparison.

[mat1419]

HE DIDN'T HAVE A GOOD YEAR UNTIL HE STARTED GETTING 140+ GAMES A YEAR.

what the fuck. dudes need playing time to hit homeruns. and the fact that he didn't get any besides 2 years in minnesota shouldn't be held against him.

And why'd it take Ryan Howard this fucking long to get up in the big leagues? He's almost 27, dudes are into their prime by that age, not just making their full season debuts.

because they had jim thome and ed wade is a dickhead who wouldn't bring him up because it would show how bad a signing thome was.

[mikeford]

hey heres a good question

how many clutch homeruns does ryan howard have in the post season?

oh wait, he has none because the team hes on is shit and will always be shit.

[FondestMemory]

and beltre was 5-11 and wasn't one. point is, beltre wasn't a home run hitter, then had one year, then went back to normal. he never was a home run guy before that. it's not a valid comparison.

the whole point is that howard hasn't proven he can do this over multiple seasons yet. he hasn't had the chance to.

ortiz has proven that, so in a lot of people's mind he's the safe choice.

[mat1419]

Actually, it kind of does considering you talked about how Ortiz couldn't do shit when he was Howard's age, which isn't true at all. This is such a dumb argument. There is NO contest here.

there completely is a contest, you have two guys doing the same exact thing. one with no protection in his lineup, the other with some. one is 4 years and a day younger. the one guy just hit his stride in the past 3 years, the other is just hitting his now. there's a very valid debate.

all your argument is based on is the guy you like has done it twice in a row before this.

and what i said before is that he'd only hit OVER 31 home runs three times which is right now that i double check. he had 31 one time, which is not OVER 31.

[Spicoli hey bud]

i choose AIDS.

in all seriousness though, Ortiz is a better baseball player.

[mat1419]

hey heres a good question

how many clutch homeruns does ryan howard have in the post season?

oh wait, he has none because the team hes on is shit and will always be shit.

way to stick to the point...you really make your case well.

[mat1419]

the whole point is that howard hasn't proven he can do this over multiple seasons yet. he hasn't had the chance to.

ortiz has proven that, so in a lot of people's mind he's the safe choice.

i totally get that and thats what the debate should be, but for people to act like ortiz's two past seasons (which were the only two even comprable to this one) are enough experience to make this a mortal lock is just ridiculous.

[bigmike]

the "howard has no protection" argument is retarded when he's still getting pitches to hit. You don't need anyone behind you when still aren't pitching around you.

[mikeford]

i'm pretty sure 3 seasons in a row hitting 40 homeruns is enough to prove a guy is legit.

[Scott Weber]

there completely is a contest, you have two guys doing the same exact thing. one with no protection in his lineup, the other with some. one is 4 years and a day younger. the one guy just hit his stride in the past 3 years, the other is just hitting his now. there's a very valid debate.

all your argument is based on is the guy you like has done it twice in a row before this.

and what i said before is that he'd only hit OVER 31 home runs three times which is right now that i double check. he had 31 one time, which is not OVER 31.
Haha semantics, semantics. What a stupid cover-up for an obvious mistake or attempt to misconstrue an argument in your favor. Ortiz has been an absolutely dominant slugger for 3 straight years, is a huge positive energy in the clubhouse, is 30 years old and still improving, and is unquestionably the greatest clutch big-time hitter of our generation. He's possibly the best overall bat in the entire league. Now how do you choose around him again?

[Scott Weber]

i'm pretty sure 3 seasons in a row hitting 40 homeruns is enough to prove a guy is legit.
Yeah, no shit. When it's been proven that one over 40 doesn't mean anything.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/brady_anderson_autograph.jpg

[mat1419]

i'm pretty sure 3 seasons in a row hitting 40 homeruns is enough to prove a guy is legit.

it is and i'm not taking ortiz down, but it's not like those two extra seasons really put the guy ahead of a guy who's done the same for a season and a half now in my opinion.

if ortiz was doing it for 5 years or whatever, that's a little different, but howards getting ortiz-like production 2 years before ortiz got it.

[mikeford]

Yeah, no shit. When it's been proven that one over 40 doesn't mean anything.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/brady_anderson_autograph.jpg

brady coulda been a contendah.... if he kept juicing.

and he hit like 54 that season
hahaha.

[justinevans]

You know what else? howard has ONE good season now under his belt. Nobody knows if he'll keep this up for the rest of his career. Ortiz has proved he's consistent and clutch. Howard hasn't proved shit except that he could be the next Adrian Beltre. If we're building a team around a guy, I want a vet who I KNOW will produce year in and year out.

2 good seasons....he was rookie of the year last year.

Ortiz didn't do shit for the most part until he was 27 so lets not even talk about age.

I believe it is a toss-up...Howard's numbers could grow if he were a DH in the AL.

Howard is up there with Ortiz in in game-winning rbis...there just more often in the 7th and 8 innings than the 9th.

Howard also has Pat Burrell behind him...not Manny Ramirez...so if a lefty pitcher or reliever is in, they'll pitch to Ortiz and not Manny. Ryan Howard was intentionally walked 3 straight times the other night.

[bigmike]

it is and i'm not taking ortiz down, but it's not like those two extra seasons really put the guy ahead of a guy who's done the same for a season and a half now in my opinion.

if ortiz was doing it for 5 years or whatever, that's a little different, but howards getting ortiz-like production 2 years before ortiz got it.
BECAUSE HE GOT A STARTING JOB 2 YEARS BEFORE ORTIZ DID!

[mat1419]

Haha semantics, semantics. What a stupid cover-up for an obvious mistake or attempt to misconstrue an argument in your favor. Ortiz has been an absolutely dominant slugger for 3 straight years, is a huge positive energy in the clubhouse, is 30 years old and still improving, and is unquestionably the greatest clutch big-time hitter of our generation. He's possibly the best overall bat in the entire league. Now how do you choose around him again?

so you can call me out on a mistake that wasn't even there, and when i call you out on making the mistake you call it stupid? sounds good to me....

i choose against him because for a year and a half howard has matched his home run total, his rbi total, had a higher average, still has a lot more of an upside, and gives you 4 extra years to play with. that enough for you?

[mat1419]

BECAUSE HE GOT A STARTING JOB 2 YEARS BEFORE ORTIZ DID!

so you're going to hold that against the guy?

[bigmike]

so you're going to hold that against the guy?
Apparently you're holding at against Ortiz.

[mikeford]

http://www.bosox1.com/SoxRing.jpg

[mat1419]

Apparently you're holding at against Ortiz.

well, if you can get an extra two years of equal production out of a guy, it's a definate plus for him in this debate. i'm not holding against ortiz as much as i'm saying its a plus for howard to be there ahead of him.

[Scott Weber]

it is and i'm not taking ortiz down, but it's not like those two extra seasons really put the guy ahead of a guy who's done the same for a season and a half now in my opinion.

if ortiz was doing it for 5 years or whatever, that's a little different, but howards getting ortiz-like production 2 years before ortiz got it.

Uh yeah, 3 straight seasons with over 40 HRs puts a guy WAYYYYYYY ahead of somebody who did it in one. And who cares if Howard's doing it this season, that doesn't mean SHIT until he does it in multiple seasons, and if you were to build a team around somebody you'd sure as hell do it around a proven, clutch LEADER than a young prospect who's future is yet to be seen. Plus, I think Clubhouse effect has a lot to do with this.

[Scott Weber]

brady coulda been a contendah.... if he kept juicing.

and he hit like 54 that season
hahaha.
At least he made it so we'd remember him for something.

[Split2nd]

Fuck Papi, fuck Howard. I'll take Albert Pujols.

[mat1419]

who the fuck said howard should win mvp?

[Split2nd]

I don't think Howard's going to get much better than what he's at right now. He's about 27, hitting his prime. This type of 45-50 HR 1.000 ops season is his peak imo.

[mat1419]

Uh yeah, 3 straight seasons with over 40 HRs puts a guy WAYYYYYYY ahead of somebody who did it in one. And who cares if Howard's doing it this season, that doesn't mean SHIT until he does it in multiple seasons, and if you were to build a team around somebody you'd sure as hell do it around a proven, clutch LEADER than a young prospect who's future is yet to be seen. Plus, I think Clubhouse effect has a lot to do with this.

see, i don't really think it does. howard had an all star caliber half season last year, did it the full campaign this year, which to me shows there's a pretty good shot he's legit. i think that's enough to make the case for him

[Split2nd]

whatre you talking about? ;)

[mat1419]

I don't think Howard's going to get much better than what he's at right now. He's about 27, hitting his prime. This type of 45-50 HR 1.000 ops season is his peak imo.

i mean, he's on pace for 57...so if this is where he peaks i'm ok with that.

though he's just learning how to hit lefties now and still doesn't really pull the ball as much as he should. if he gets the pulling down, that's going to drive his home run total up a lot.

[justinevans]

BECAUSE HE GOT A STARTING JOB 2 YEARS BEFORE ORTIZ DID!

ortiz played 130 games with minnesota in 2000 and 125 in 2002...

In 2000, Ortiz was 24.

I like you, but just shut up.

[mat1419]

whatre you talking about? ;)

you were just quick enough to keep it out of quotes...

[mikeford]

ortiz played 130 games with minnesota in 2000 and 125 in 2002...

In 2000, Ortiz was 24.

I like you, but just shut up.

how many games did he START

pinch hitting means playing in a game.

[bigmike]

ortiz played 130 games with minnesota in 2000 and 125 in 2002...

In 2000, Ortiz was 24.

I like you, but just shut up.
yeah, he played 6 years there and only had 2 years with 100+ games. pay attention. you're behind.

I like you, but shut the fuck up.

[justinevans]

Uh yeah, 3 straight seasons with over 40 HRs puts a guy WAYYYYYYY ahead of somebody who did it in one. And who cares if Howard's doing it this season, that doesn't mean SHIT until he does it in multiple seasons, and if you were to build a team around somebody you'd sure as hell do it around a proven, clutch LEADER than a young prospect who's future is yet to be seen. Plus, I think Clubhouse effect has a lot to do with this.

Howard is in his 2nd year and he and utley are the team leaders?

[justinevans]

how many games did he START

pinch hitting means playing in a game.

415 at-bats and 412 at-bats.

[Scott Weber]

so you can call me out on a mistake that wasn't even there, and when i call you out on making the mistake you call it stupid? sounds good to me....

i choose against him because for a year and a half howard has matched his home run total, his rbi total, had a higher average, still has a lot more of an upside, and gives you 4 extra years to play with. that enough for you?

Either way you fucked up by not mentioning 3 seasons over 40 in a row. And no, it's not enough for me. And his average is higher by like 10 points, which is all of about 4 hits tops. And Ortiz's 4 year average is virtually the same. And how can you say his upside is bigger when Ortiz already has 41 HRs with 50 games to go? Obviously Ortiz is still improving as well, completely disregarding age. And since Ortiz is a DH, he will last longer in the league.

[Scott Weber]

see, i don't really think it does. howard had an all star caliber half season last year, did it the full campaign this year, which to me shows there's a pretty good shot he's legit. i think that's enough to make the case for him

"Pretty good shot" is not something I'd want to BUILD A FRANCHISE AROUND. Plus, you cannot deny how positive of an influence Papi is on the Sox and their fans. I truly believe he makes everyone around him better by his attitude. And, he's still got the best clutch hitting reputation in the league by far.

[Scott Weber]

415 at-bats and 412 at-bats.
What the fuck does that matter anyways? Fuck his past, look at what he is RIGHT NOW. Why are we even talking about that.

Edit: I just realized the forum is locked and nobody else can post in here but me. Lame. This was a fun one.

[mat1419]

sooo...did somebody say ortiz is overrated?

let's get it on!

[mat1419]

What the fuck does that matter anyways? Fuck his past, look at what he is RIGHT NOW. Why are we even talking about that.



so can't we say the same about ryho?

[Scott Weber]

..............and we're back!

[Scott Weber]

Because his past is AAA.... lol. All Howard needs is one more big .290, 40-50 HR season and I'll be sold on him. Until then, I still think it's foolish to say he's a better pick than Ortiz.

[Spicoli hey bud]

i think all you can say right now is that Howard has the POTENTIAL to live up to his hype. give him another season or 2 of this production.

however, 130+ strikeouts at this point in the season scares me.

[mat1419]

Because his past is AAA.... lol. All Howard needs is one more big .290, 40-50 HR season and I'll be sold on him. Until then, I still think it's foolish to say he's a better pick than Ortiz.

but it's not a foolish idea to use potential as a reason to build a franchise around a player. he's just beginning his growth and he's already to ortiz's numbers, and ortiz is an AL mvp candidate. the sky's the limit for howard.

[mat1419]

i think all you can say right now is that Howard has the POTENTIAL to live up to his hype. give him another season or 2 of this production.

however, 130+ strikeouts at this point in the season scares me.

he's getting better with that...a lot of it goes back to his struggles against lefties. he's still not there, but he's better. still, will 130 strikeouts, to be at .300 with 41 homers and 50 games left is pretty solid.

[mikeford]

ill still take ortiz 15 walkoff hits.

[mat1419]

ill still take ortiz 15 walkoff hits.

well shit, someday howard might be there if his team stays in games. this is the kid who had all 7 rbi's in a game that they lost this year.

[mikeford]

how many he got this season? cuz ortiz has at least 4 by my count.

[mat1419]

how many he got this season? cuz ortiz has at least 4 by my count.

justin might know...i don't think the phils have more than 4 as a team.

does the home run derby count? 500 round trip flights you know...

[mikeford]

hahah no, homerun derby does not count.

[Scott Weber]

but it's not a foolish idea to use potential as a reason to build a franchise around a player. he's just beginning his growth and he's already to ortiz's numbers, and ortiz is an AL mvp candidate. the sky's the limit for howard.
the sky's the limit for everyone. Ortiz is going to have more homers this year than ever before in his career. He's improving as well.

[mat1419]

the sky's the limit for everyone. Ortiz is going to have more homers this year than ever before in his career. He's improving as well.

(full circle)

yeah, but his best year is still coming 4 years later than howards

[Scott Weber]

(full circle)

yeah, but his best year is still coming 4 years later than howards
*rolls eyes* That is so incredibly irrelevant.

[mat1419]

*rolls eyes* That is so incredibly irrelevant.

not really...if the question is "who would you rather build a team with"...number of years he could potentially be effective is an obvious selling point. if they're equally productive now, and howard could potentially have 4 extra years, you have a chance at more of a payout.

the only argument for each guy is

for ortiz - he's done it longer/he's proven, he's clutch

howard - he's hit his stride earlier, he's got more time in the league

there's a very solid argument for each guys

[Scott Weber]

not really...if the question is "who would you rather build a team with"...number of years he could potentially be effective is an obvious selling point. if they're equally productive now, and howard could potentially have 4 extra years, you have a chance at more of a payout.

the only argument for each guy is

for ortiz - he's done it longer/he's proven, he's clutch

howard - he's hit his stride earlier, he's got more time in the league

there's a very solid argument for each guys

Wait, wait wait...who says Howard has more time in the league? A guy like Ortiz could effectively DH until he's 40, easily. Thomas's body could wear down faster. We don't know. But look at Frank Thomas, he's almost 40 and he's having a pretty solid season. And the fact that you keep mentioning "potentially" is why you wouldn't choose him.

Another thing that I was thinking about mentioning but held off until now...if we really wanter consider EVERYTHING in this whole argument, another reason to take Ortiz is because he's box office, he's a media darling and he'll fill the seats a whole lot more than Howard will. Ortiz is money at the plate and money in the owner's pocket.

[mikeford]

yeah how many pink ryan howard jersey are gettin sold? hahah

apparently the closet racist of the sports forum (paris1sinflames) would let ryan howard be the "only black guy" to date his sister though...

[mat1419]

Wait, wait wait...who says Howard has more time in the league? A guy like Ortiz could effectively DH until he's 40, easily. Thomas's body could wear down faster. We don't know. But look at Frank Thomas, he's almost 40 and he's having a pretty solid season. And the fact that you keep mentioning "potentially" is why you wouldn't choose him.

Another thing that I was thinking about mentioning but held off until now...if we really wanter consider EVERYTHING in this whole argument, another reason to take Ortiz is because he's box office, he's a media darling and he'll fill the seats a whole lot more than Howard will. Ortiz is money at the plate and money in the owner's pocket.

um...reggie bush "potentially" become better than shaun alexander. are you saying that there's no argument behind building a franchise around bush? it's a stretch of an analogy, but it points to the basic principle that that potential is based on very real evidence that it could happen.

and ortiz is a media darling, which is EXACTLY why so many people think he's had a long career of being amazing instead of just three years. Howard has been in the league for a little over 400 days. He's got plenty of time to make his fans across the country.

[Scott Weber]

um...reggie bush "potentially" become better than shaun alexander. are you saying that there's no argument behind building a franchise around bush? it's a stretch of an analogy, but it points to the basic principle that that potential is based on very real evidence that it could happen.

and ortiz is a media darling, which is EXACTLY why so many people think he's had a long career of being amazing instead of just three years. Howard has been in the league for a little over 400 days. He's got plenty of time to make his fans across the country.

Haha, I am a huge Reggie Bush fan. He may already be better than Shaun Alexander. Shaun is good at reading defenses, slipping through cracks, and turning on the speed in the open field. Bush is good at everything. But if I'm building a franchise around somebody, I'd take somebody who's already established themselves for at least a season (I'd probably take LT) And by the way, you said 3 years again instead of 4 in Boston. Again you fucked up...don't pretend like you didn't say it this time *ducks* (but Howard doesn't have the personality and the huuuuuuuuge resume of playoff clutch hits to ever make him CLOSE to the media attraction Ortiz is.)

[bigmike]

basically all this tells me is that I'd still rather have pujols over howard.

[mat1419]

Haha, I am a huge Reggie Bush fan. He may already be better than Shaun Alexander. Shaun is good at reading defenses, slipping through cracks, and turning on the speed in the open field. Bush is good at everything. But if I'm building a franchise around somebody, I'd take somebody who's already established themselves for at least a season (I'd probably take LT) And by the way, you said 3 years again instead of 4 in Boston. Again you fucked up...don't pretend like you didn't say it this time *ducks* (but Howard doesn't have the personality and the huuuuuuuuge resume of playoff clutch hits to ever make him CLOSE to the media attraction Ortiz is.)

ah, i see the problem...i keep saying three years in reference to the 40 home run years, you keep thinking i'm saying it in reference to his time in boston. he's only had two other years comprable to this year before, so that's what i keep going back to.

and howard is such a likeable kid that if he gets the exposure (i.e. gets in the playoffs), he'll be an american superhero.

[mat1419]

basically all this tells me is that I'd still rather have pujols over howard.

well pujols trumps both

[mikeford]

pujols is actually directed decended from zeus

in fact i think zeus is the one who actually caught that homerun off lidge last year.

[bigmike]

pujols is actually directed decended from zeus

in fact i think zeus is the one who actually caught that homerun off lidge last year.
Ahh, it finally landed somewhere?

[mat1419]

pujols is actually directed decended from zeus

in fact i think zeus is the one who actually caught that homerun off lidge last year.

i think that ball is on its 20 or 21st orbit around the planet this week

[mikeford]

Ahh, it finally landed somewhere?

yeah i think its flight was impaired when it hit the moon.

[Scott Weber]

ah, i see the problem...i keep saying three years in reference to the 40 home run years, you keep thinking i'm saying it in reference to his time in boston. he's only had two other years comprable to this year before, so that's what i keep going back to.

and howard is such a likeable kid that if he gets the exposure (i.e. gets in the playoffs), he'll be an american superhero.
He'll never be as likeable until he gets 2 game winning hits in succession in the playoffs against the most hated and liked team in America.

[bigmike]

yeah i think its flight was impaired when it hit the moon.
well that will do it. fucking moon.

[mat1419]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UezGLjr4Wk

[mikeford]

He'll never be as likeable until he gets 2 game winning hits in succession in the playoffs against the most hated and liked team in America.

its too bad bellhorn didnt benefit from this.

[mat1419]

He'll never be as likeable until he gets 2 game winning hits in succession in the playoffs against the most hated and liked team in America.

goddammit he's trying! if gillick comes through and fills the rest of the lineup, with utley third and him fourth next year, he's got a show to destroy his numbers of this year.

[mikeford]

you better worry about getting a pitching staff so the boy can ever GET to the postseason.

[Scott Weber]

goddammit he's trying! if gillick comes through and fills the rest of the lineup, with utley third and him fourth next year, he's got a show to destroy his numbers of this year.
We had Gillick in Seattle...good luck. He did a decent job here but he never shelled out the big bucks to bring any big MLB free agents in really.

[mat1419]

you better worry about getting a pitching staff so the boy can ever GET to the postseason.

hamels and myers are here to stay...we need 2 and a half more pitchers, a third baseman and a catcher. if we do that, we're a playoff team. it doesn't seem unreasonable, but its philly, so of course, it is.

[mikeford]

coste looks like he could be a servicable catcher for the future. i dont know how old he is but youve been wild card battling for like 3 years in a row with mike fuckin lieberthal anyway

no one could be THAT bad.

[mat1419]

coste looks like he could be a servicable catcher for the future. i dont know how old he is but youve been wild card battling for like 3 years in a row with mike fuckin lieberthal anyway

no one could be THAT bad.

um...we had sal fasano too. that's how bad it was.

coste is like 33...he was a career minor leaguer. if he was a young guy i'd be stoked, but he's at best a back up next year. we need a new guy back there. nunez can get back on the bench and let a new guy come in. other than that though, our field is set. we just need a #1 probably a #4 and we can probably get a #5 from our team now or the minors.

i'd love to upgrade tom gordon too...

[mikeford]

oof 33. yeah nevermind about that.

whats up with randy wolf? he a UFA after this season?

[Dirty Ernie]

if you can bring randy back for a 1 year 2 mil contract or so, i would do it

[mat1419]

oof 33. yeah nevermind about that.

whats up with randy wolf? he a UFA after this season?

yeah, he's free i think after this one...i don't know if its unrestricted though. he's doing well now though so if he stays healthy who knows, he could be back.

[Split2nd]

hamels and myers are here to stay...we need 2 and a half more pitchers, a third baseman and a catcher. if we do that, we're a playoff team. it doesn't seem unreasonable, but its philly, so of course, it is.

That's a lot to be far away from. Hamels and Myers are studly, but Cole has had health issues and filling out a backend of the rotation with such a shitty farm system can be a problem.

[xbrokendownx]

i didnt read any of this thread, but if you didnt vote for ortiz, you must be high



or a phillies fan

[justinevans]

hahah no, homerun derby does not count.

I'm not sure exactly. I know he hit the game-winning rbi alot on the road so it wouldn't be in the bottom of the 9th and technically not a walk-off. Ortiz and Howard are 1 and 2 in Game-winning rbi. Howard leads the NL I know.

[justinevans]

Wait, wait wait...who says Howard has more time in the league? A guy like Ortiz could effectively DH until he's 40, easily. Thomas's body could wear down faster. We don't know. But look at Frank Thomas, he's almost 40 and he's having a pretty solid season. And the fact that you keep mentioning "potentially" is why you wouldn't choose him.

Another thing that I was thinking about mentioning but held off until now...if we really wanter consider EVERYTHING in this whole argument, another reason to take Ortiz is because he's box office, he's a media darling and he'll fill the seats a whole lot more than Howard will. Ortiz is money at the plate and money in the owner's pocket.

I think "box office" is irrelevant because Boston's seats fill when he wasn't there.

Howard - bobble-head night...largest crowd ever at citizen bank park.

[justinevans]

We had Gillick in Seattle...good luck. He did a decent job here but he never shelled out the big bucks to bring any big MLB free agents in really.

no one wanted to come?

[Scott Weber]

no one wanted to come?
116 wins in 2001 - most in AL history - I think the appeal was there to come.

[mat1419]

116 wins in 2001 - most in AL history - I think the appeal was there to come.

yeah, but it was raining out...who wants to drive in the rain?

[Scott Weber]

yeah, but it was raining out...who wants to drive in the rain?
Haha. It doesn't actually rain as much as people think it does in Seattle. New York gets more rainfall per year than Seattle does. Plus, Safeco Field is the best park in the majors and it has a retractable roof. We're covered!

[bigmike]

116 wins in 2001 - most in AL history - I think the appeal was there to come.
*Most in MLB history, i do believe.

[Scott Weber]

*Most in MLB history, i do believe.
They tied the all-time record, beat the AL one.

[fcknazisympathy]

*Most in MLB history, i do believe.

You think the Tigers will go over 105 wins?

[bigmike]

They tied the all-time record, beat the AL one.
oh, damn. I thought for sure it was an MLB record.

[bigmike]

You think the Tigers will go over 105 wins?
no. 101-102 is what I think.

[Scott Weber]

oh, damn. I thought for sure it was an MLB record.
The cubs also had 116 in 1920 something. that record is actually more impressive because they played less games in a season back then.

[justinevans]

Haha. It doesn't actually rain as much as people think it does in Seattle. New York gets more rainfall per year than Seattle does. Plus, Safeco Field is the best park in the majors and it has a retractable roof. We're covered!

Statisically, Seattle is the most depressing city with the most suicides.

[justinevans]

The cubs also had 116 in 1920 something. that record is actually more impressive because they played less games in a season back then.

1906- 116-36

[Scott Weber]

Statisically, Seattle is the most depressing city with the most suicides.

what the fuck, where did you hear that? I don't believe that. Statistically, Seattle is the most intelligent city in the nation.

[Scott Weber]

1906- 116-36
word, 152 games instead.

[FondestMemory]

what the fuck, where did you hear that? I don't believe that. Statistically, Seattle is the most intelligent city in the nation.

smart people can kill themselves too silly.

i've actually heard people say that also, but have never seen stats to back it up. i think it's just a random stat that somebody made up and people keep passing along.

[Scott Weber]

Statisically, Seattle is the most depressing city with the most suicides.

you fucker, I just researched that. It's not Seattle, it's TACOMA...which is Seattle's ghetto, worthless neighbor. That city is awful. I'm not suprised.

[Scott Weber]

you fucker, I just researched that. It's not Seattle, it's TACOMA...which is Seattle's ghetto, worthless neighbor. That city is awful. I'm not suprised.

Hey Parisinflames:

Wait, fuck that, Tacoma's just in the most stressful cities - in an official poll from Men's Health magazine, PHILADELPHIA was the number one most depressing city in America!!!! Haha, eat that!!!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1359647/posts

oh how the tides have turned! Haha.

[xbrokendownx]

Hey Parisinflames:

Wait, fuck that, Tacoma's just in the most stressful cities - in an official poll from Men's Health magazine, PHILADELPHIA was the number one most depressing city in America!!!! Haha, eat that!!!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1359647/posts

oh how the tides have turned! Haha.





i dont doubt it


the pro sports teams alone would make me want to kill myself

[justinevans]

Hey Parisinflames:

Wait, fuck that, Tacoma's just in the most stressful cities - in an official poll from Men's Health magazine, PHILADELPHIA was the number one most depressing city in America!!!! Haha, eat that!!!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1359647/posts

oh how the tides have turned! Haha.

1st off, that is from Men's Health magazine. Secondly, the article was from March 2005. So that is also a month after the Eagles super bowl loss. It'd better be fucking depressing.

Third, I don't live in Philadelphia or within an hour. The players rarely even live in Pennsylvania. I think it comes down to our owners willing to spend the $$ vs yours?

[Scott Weber]

1st off, that is from Men's Health magazine. Secondly, the article was from March 2005. So that is also a month after the Eagles super bowl loss. It'd better be fucking depressing.

Third, I don't live in Philadelphia or within an hour. The players rarely even live in Pennsylvania. I think it comes down to our owners willing to spend the $$ vs yours?
Men's Health is credible. But anyways, Philly sucks. :P

[justinevans]

Men's Health is credible. But anyways, Philly sucks. :P

Ha, I was there today. There are some nice parts. Northeast cities are far different than cities in the rest of the country. Well actually most north cities as well.