True Socialism. Debate.

[The Indigo]

http://www.worldsocialism.org/index.php

I'm just looking for some good, knowledgeable debate about socialism.

[caveBEAR]

http://www.worldsocialism.org/index.php

I'm just looking for some good, knowledgeable debate about socialism.

Then why don't you start it instead of relying on others to do it for you?

[bridgeofeldin]

our economy is already a mix of socialism and capitalism anyway, i don't see why anyone wants to have a completely socialist state

[rawspinner]

The Book of Acts.

[Manicapathy]

our economy is already a mix of socialism and capitalism anyway, i don't see why anyone wants to have a completely socialist state
Agreed. Already seen that fail too hard in other places. Too many people leech off the system, and the people in power always abuse said power. What we have now could be better, could use a few tweaks here and there, but the balance is pretty good.

[bridgeofeldin]

The Book of Acts.

its funny that you mention this, because the catholic church absolutely hates socialism. i've always found that ironic

[rawspinner]

its funny that you mention this, because the catholic church absolutely hates socialism. i've always found that ironic

32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Acts 4: 32-35

[Machu505]

32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Acts 4: 32-35

The Christian Socialism movement is amazing. There is no people more moral.

[SlappedActor]

All those verses say is that the people gave all their money and property to the religious authorities, trusting that they would re-distribute it accordingly.

aka Worst. Idea. Ever.

[deFobbed14yrs]

isn't medacare and social security socialism? like everyone paying for the old people

but considering health care, i think the government needs to regulate insurance companies and have a public option for the poor, and no not emergency rooms.

[bridgeofeldin]

32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Acts 4: 32-35

if only the vatican actually took this to heart

[rawesome]

Socialism is a slippery concept, for the most part. While there are obvious upsides to it, ultimately it would require an almost unattainably altruistic set of government officials to really make it work, as well as general consensus among the citizens.

It would, however, be a necessary step if a group were to attempt to create a pure Marxist society.

[The Indigo]

our economy is already a mix of socialism and capitalism anyway, i don't see why anyone wants to have a completely socialist state
Nope. Socialism cannot exist within capitalism. Most of the programs often heralded as "socialist" are actually closer to communist.

Agreed. Already seen that fail too hard in other places. Too many people leech off the system, and the people in power always abuse said power. What we have now could be better, could use a few tweaks here and there, but the balance is pretty good.
Socialism has never been implemented in the modern world. In a true socialist society, there would be no "people in power" to leech off said power.

[rawesome]

Nope. Socialism cannot exist within capitalism. Most of the programs often heralded as "socialist" are actually closer to communist.


Socialism has never been implemented in the modern world. In a true socialist society, there would be no "people in power" to leech off said power.
That is incorrect. You're thinking of pure Marxist philosophy. Socialism doesn't really have any guidelines, as, like I said, it's sort of just an en route to Marxism government, but generally thought is that Socialism does require government ownership of industry.

Unless you're purely talking philosophy, in which case Socialism doesn't exist, so there is no "true Socialism."

[The Indigo]

That is incorrect. You're thinking of pure Marxist philosophy. Socialism doesn't really have any guidelines, as, like I said, it's sort of just an en route to Marxism government, but generally thought is that Socialism does require government ownership of industry.

Unless you're purely talking philosophy, in which case Socialism doesn't exist, so there is no "true Socialism."
That's communism.

[rawesome]

That's communism.
No, it's the opposite. First sentence, third paragraph. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism)

[The Indigo]

No, it's the opposite. First sentence, third paragraph. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism)
My bad for using my modern definition. Both communism and socialism (in their philosophical forms) are without government, but it's the lack of possessions and "equal distribution" aspects of communism that I don't like.

[rawesome]

My bad for using my modern definition. Both communism and socialism (in their philosophical forms) are without government, but it's the lack of possessions and "equal distribution" aspects of communism that I don't like.
I think the idea with equal distribution is more about equal availability rather than everybody has to have the same amount of everything. As far as possessions, the general idea is just that no one really can "own" something, and that it's just use it and lose it. Like, everything is in an analogous library where you just rent stuff or use their computers as long as you need to. The idea, for both philosophies, is that the use value of something is what is important and that a product should only be considered for it's use value, not stretched beyond that.

But whatev.

[Illuminate]

socialism= fail.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

socialism= fail.

capitalism = survival of the fittest. If your business fails or you get laid off, well too fucking bad. Better luck next time.

[rawesome]

capitalism = survival of the fittest. If your business fails or you get laid off, well too fucking bad. Better luck next time.
Capitalism hasn't really worked, either, in any extreme degree.

It takes moderation with economics.

[Illuminate]

capitalism = survival of the fittest. If your business fails or you get laid off, well too fucking bad. Better luck next time.

So you're a believer in "sharing the wealth".

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

So you're a believer in "sharing the wealth".

Yes! I'm a patriotic American and I want every person in this great country to be able to make a living. I don't think it's fair for the rich to keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer.

[rawesome]

So you're a believer in "sharing the wealth".
lol

[Machu505]

There aren't many things I want more of than "sharing the wealth", if that's how you want to simplify it.

[Illuminate]

Yes! I'm a patriotic American and I want every person in this great country to be able to make a living. I don't think it's fair for the rich to keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer.

Even the americans who have no interest to work? You make it seem like the rich have easy lives, like they're given money for free, that's not how the world works.

[Illuminate]

There aren't many things I want more of than "sharing the wealth", if that's how you want to simplify it.

So than I suggest you leave this country.

[rawesome]

Even the americans who have no interest to work? You make it seem like the rich have easy lives, like they're given money for free, that's not how the world works.
Your implication is that people won't work if they don't have to. What you should be more concerned about is people not wanting to work because they're lives are a constant struggle to make end's meat, and they get very little of the precious "down time" that Capitalism preaches as being the ideal state of the working person. (What is the point of life if all of the time we spend not working is filled up trying to unwind from work?) People become "welfare leeches" because it is a better alternative than working 3 jobs to pay for someone else's Hummer.

Also: http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f166/bones2jack/Paris%20Hilton/ParisHilton_Caulfield_8572072.jpg

[rawesome]

So than I suggest you leave this country.
then*

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Even the americans who have no interest to work? You make it seem like the rich have easy lives, like they're given money for free, that's not how the world works.

Every free market conservative believes every American can earn $100k a year if they work hard enough. Even Rush Limbaugh, who chooses not to have health insurance, believes that any American can work hard and choose not to have health insurance by limiting oneself from luxuries in life by saving money for potential hospitals stays. The reality is that not every American can achieve that status, given social barriers of education and work opportunities. There are generations of people who feel entitled to freebees (thanks in part to Mr. Rogers who taught everyone that they are "special" and in turn made them narcissistic) and you, yes you Illuminate have no control over it. While your ideologies are your own, you cannot control the fact that there are Americans who feel entitled.

[rawspinner]

All those verses say is that the people gave all their money and property to the religious authorities, trusting that they would re-distribute it accordingly.

aka Worst. Idea. Ever.

Ya I can see your point, but you have to realize that there is a huge distinction between the "religious" authorities during the early church and the religious authorities now. The apostles were not distant from the group and were actively involved in the community and part of the community sharing in meals, helping the widows, etc. t's a lot harder nowadays though because congregations can be larger and it's probably a lot easier for the pastor or minister to fall into the trap of building up a wall between themselves and the congregation, although I believe in God's plan, there is no social distinction.
But it can exist today and pretty amazingly. Just check out The Simple Way in Philly. Shane Claiborne probably has some really insightful stuff to say on the matter. And Aaron from mewithoutYou spent some time there to I believe.

Of course, I'm not saying that nations need to convert to Christianity and establish these sort of practives, heavens, no. Heck, I would probably even major Christian communities don't practice this as disciplined as they should or could. But I think that within a faith community, it was interesting that God really blessed them when they were completely transparent, honest, faithfull, and generous with what was "theirs".

[rawesome]

Every free market conservative believes every American can earn $100k a year if they work hard enough. Even Rush Limbaugh, who chooses not to have health insurance, believes that any American can work hard and choose not to have health insurance by limiting oneself from luxuries in life by saving money for potential hospitals stays. The reality is that not every American can achieve that status, given social barriers of education and work opportunities. There are generations of people who feel entitled to freebees (thanks in part to Mr. Rogers who taught everyone that they are "special" and in turn made them narcissistic) and you, yes you Illuminate have no control over it. While your ideologies are your own, you cannot control the fact that there are Americans who feel entitled.
The very, VERY basic principle of Capitalism is essentially that if one person is rich, one, at least, has to be poor. Where some people consider Socialism to be working to provide for others, which it is, it is the same way with Capitalism. The difference? In one system everyone profits, in the other only very few profit.

[Illuminate]

Your implication is that people won't work if they don't have to. What you should be more concerned about is people not wanting to work because they're lives are a constant struggle to make end's meat, and they get very little of the precious "down time" that Capitalism preaches as being the ideal state of the working person. (What is the point of life if all of the time we spend not working is filled up trying to unwind from work?) People become "welfare leeches" because it is a better alternative than working 3 jobs to pay for someone else's Hummer.

Also: http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f166/bones2jack/Paris%20Hilton/ParisHilton_Caulfield_8572072.jpg

Personally speaking, yes, I would not work as hard as I did if it wasn't for bonuses and the opportunity to make more money. I'm not saying everyone has this opportunity but you do need to work for it, through networking, schooling, etc. I did not grow up with a rich family, nor did I go into/join a friend/family member's business. I pay my taxes and am okay with how the tax bracket system works even though I do believe it can potentially poorly affect the middle class and that's an issue too.

[Illuminate]

then*

Then*, thanks for correcting me. Albeit, my grammatical error on absolutepunk.net holds no significant value in measuring my intelligence and I hope you're smart enough to understand that.

[bridgeofeldin]

Even the americans who have no interest to work? You make it seem like the rich have easy lives, like they're given money for free, that's not how the world works.

most poor people live in a vicious cycle. to say they "have no interest" to work isn't fair. if you grow up in an environment with failing schools, gangs, and drugs you can't really compete with the middle class can you? you can't get into the better schools, you can't get any decent job, you don't have any healthcare or contraceptives. if you're responsible for a pregnancy, there's no doctor that will help or that will safely take care of your child. because you're unskilled, you may work for minimum wage or less

i understand that the wealthiest pay by far the most in taxes, but its important to understand what its like for poor people. they aren't just living off of welfare (as if its possible to live entirely from welfare) because they're lazy. unemployment means actively seeking work, and thats 1 out of 10 americans. i doubt these people are lazy.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Is public education considered socialism? Since I've been a registered voter, I've always voted in favor of public education budgets. I have friends who are teachers and I've always felt public schools deserve more funds and resources. The biggest cop-out is of residents who feel that even though they have no children, they shouldn't have to pay for others' education. These are future generations of Americans who will one day be taking care or our generation. Last I checked, "greed" is a deadly sin.

[rawesome]

Personally speaking, yes, I would not work as hard as I did if it wasn't for bonuses and the opportunity to make more money. I'm not saying everyone has this opportunity but you do need to work for it, through networking, schooling, etc. I did not grow up with a rich family, nor did I go into/join a friend/family member's business. I pay my taxes and am okay with how the tax bracket system works even though I do believe it can potentially poorly affect the middle class and that's an issue too.
I'm not advocating not working hard, in fact that's the basis of making any society run. I work my ass off at everything I do, be it school or a job, because I understand that it is important. That being said, I and most people in this thread, I'll assume, have a problem with the idea that one person's hard work = profit for somebody else. That's the basic issue with exchange value, is that someone's labor becomes the lowest common denominator, and then prices are adjusted up from that. So basically, Random factory worker X works so that his boss can profit, while he wallows around the poverty line.

[rawspinner]

if only the vatican actually took this to heart

The Simple Way.

[Illuminate]

Every free market conservative believes every American can earn $100k a year if they work hard enough. Even Rush Limbaugh, who chooses not to have health insurance, believes that any American can work hard and choose not to have health insurance by limiting oneself from luxuries in life by saving money for potential hospitals stays. The reality is that not every American can achieve that status, given social barriers of education and work opportunities. There are generations of people who feel entitled to freebees (thanks in part to Mr. Rogers who taught everyone that they are "special" and in turn made them narcissistic) and you, yes you Illuminate have no control over it. While your ideologies are your own, you cannot control the fact that there are Americans who feel entitled.

I don't think everyone has the ability to earn 100k a year, however I do believe that capitalism is a more fair system financially for Americans than Socialism

[Regards]

All those verses say is that the people gave all their money and property to the religious authorities, trusting that they would re-distribute it accordingly.

aka Worst. Idea. Ever.
Lol, that's probably the worst conclusion to come to on that verse, and it turned out to be an excellent idea considering how thriving that community was.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

I don't think everyone has the ability to earn 100k a year, however I do believe that capitalism is a more fair system financially for Americans than Socialism

So is it wrong of me to continue collecting unemployment benefits for the past two years?

[rawspinner]

The Christian Socialism movement is amazing. There is no people more moral.

I dont know if this is sarcastic or not.

[rawspinner]

Lol, that's probably the worst conclusion to come to on that verse, and it turned out to be an excellent idea considering how thriving that community was.

YOU BELIEVE THE SAME THING I DO SO IM GOING TO AUTOMATICALLY BE FRIENDS WITH YOU OM NOM NOM NOM

[Illuminate]

So is it wrong of me to continue collecting unemployment benefits for the past two years?

Not if you're out doing your best looking for work. And I wish you the best of luck

[SlappedActor]

Lol, that's probably the worst conclusion to come to on that verse, and it turned out to be an excellent idea considering how thriving that community was.

It's the only conclusion to come to. And if it was such a great idea, it would have lasted longer before the church turned around and started taking advantage of its members. It was a crappy idea then, and it would be a crappy idea today.

Take my original post, replace "religious authorities" with "government authorities", and it's pretty much the exact same thing. I'm not an anarchist, I understand taxes and such things are necessary to effectively run a government, but as a general rule, the less money I have to give to the government, the better. If I decide I want to help my fellow man, it should be of my own volition, and not some stupid government mandate masquerading as "compassion."

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Not if you're out doing your best looking for work. And I wish you the best of luck

But I can thank the taxpayers of my state for helping me through my plight.

[Regards]

It's the only conclusion to come to. And if it was such a great idea, it would have lasted longer before the church turned around and started taking advantage of its members. It was a crappy idea then, and it would be a crappy idea today.

Take my original post, replace "religious authorities" with "government authorities", and it's pretty much the exact same thing. I'm not an anarchist, I understand taxes and such things are necessary to effectively run a government, but as a general rule, the less money I have to give to the government, the better. If I decide I want to help my fellow man, it should be of my own volition, and not some stupid government mandate masquerading as "compassion."
What are you talking about? The only reason it didn't last longer was the intense persecution that happened when Nero took office, the church went into all kinds of disarray. It had nothing to do with the "church leaders."

[SlappedActor]

What are you talking about? The only reason it didn't last longer was the intense persecution that happened when Nero took office, the church went into all kinds of disarray. It had nothing to do with the "church leaders."

I disagree, but the last thing I want to see is another non-religious thread turned into a religious argument for the millionth time on these forums, so I'm going to end things here, for the general welfare of the board.

[Kurt Retenauer]

All I've gotten out of this thread was Paris Hilton.

[rawspinner]

All I've gotten out of this thread was Paris Hilton.

I lub joo.

[Praetor]

I like it, but the economic calculation problem troubles me.

[Regards]

I disagree, but the last thing I want to see is another non-religious thread turned into a religious argument for the millionth time on these forums, so I'm going to end things here, for the general welfare of the board.
Haha, it isn't a religious debate, its history, but that's fine; do what you've got to do.

[The Indigo]

I don't think everyone has the ability to earn 100k a year, however I do believe that capitalism is a more fair system financially for Americans than Socialism
How so? It's already been pointed out that people unfortunate enough to have been born into poverty have a much harder time achieving financial security than those who weren't.

[inthemidst]

32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Acts 4: 32-35

Good call. One could dream, right?

[inthemidst]

Ya I can see your point, but you have to realize that there is a huge distinction between the "religious" authorities during the early church and the religious authorities now. The apostles were not distant from the group and were actively involved in the community and part of the community sharing in meals, helping the widows, etc. t's a lot harder nowadays though because congregations can be larger and it's probably a lot easier for the pastor or minister to fall into the trap of building up a wall between themselves and the congregation, although I believe in God's plan, there is no social distinction.
But it can exist today and pretty amazingly. Just check out The Simple Way in Philly. Shane Claiborne probably has some really insightful stuff to say on the matter. And Aaron from mewithoutYou spent some time there to I believe.

Of course, I'm not saying that nations need to convert to Christianity and establish these sort of practives, heavens, no. Heck, I would probably even major Christian communities don't practice this as disciplined as they should or could. But I think that within a faith community, it was interesting that God really blessed them when they were completely transparent, honest, faithfull, and generous with what was "theirs".

Shane Claiborne is great. Although I may not agree with all of his ideologies, I still find them insightful and revolutionary. Have you read Jesus for President or Irresistible Revolution?

[rawspinner]

Shane Claiborne is great. Although I may not agree with all of his ideologies, I still find them insightful and revolutionary. Have you read Jesus for President or Irresistible Revolution?

I haven't yet, although I think my friends saw him speak at Urbana this year. I acutally saw him on a segment for healthcare by CNN. He had some cool stuff to say there too.

[inthemidst]

I haven't yet, although I think my friends saw him speak at Urbana this year. I acutally saw him on a segment for healthcare by CNN. He had some cool stuff to say there too.

I HIGHLY recommend reading both books, especially Jesus for President. Really enlightening stuff.

He came here to Jacksonville last month, I think. I didn't know until he was already gone. Oh well...

[rawspinner]

Good call. One could dream, right?

Ya, there are aspects of waiting for that to happen again when JC comes, but we can still try to recreate that now. Even at my campus fellowship we've been taking steps to be more of a community than an organization, and I think people have had vast changes in how they view and experience the Kingdom of God, for the better.

[inthemidst]

Ya, there are aspects of waiting for that to happen again why JC comes, but even doing the most to do that now. Even at my campus fellowship we've been taking steps to be more of a community than an organization, and I think people have had vast changes in how they view and experience the Kingdom of God, for the better.

That's really admirable man. It really is. It's tough down here; it seems that I'm in the extreme minority when it comes to that particular subject. I really think with enough prayer, and imagination, we can make God's dream for the world a reality. It's just hard in a world that calls it "unrealistic".

[Theseventhson]

There aren't many things I want more of than "sharing the wealth", if that's how you want to simplify it.

I second this post.

[PaulPelc5]

So is it wrong of me to continue collecting unemployment benefits for the past two years?

2 years??? really??

[Machu505]

So than I suggest you leave this country.

Because there's only one legitimate American belief, right?

[GuitarR0cker1]

I like Social Democracy.

[caveBEAR]

People become "welfare leeches" because it is a better alternative than working 3 jobs to pay for someone else's Hummer.

Exactly. The fact that some people aren't aware that you can legally be paid a wage that's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay below the standard of living is fucking disturbing. They act like 'get a job' = 'good lifestyle'. People are so fucking clueless, it's a shame.


(There are, of course, people who just don't want to work, but there's also trust fund babies, so everything even's out, IMO)

[<*)))><]

Exactly. The fact that some people aren't aware that you can legally be paid a wage that's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay below the standard of living is fucking disturbing. They act like 'get a job' = 'good lifestyle'. People are so fucking clueless, it's a shame.


(There are, of course, people who just don't want to work, but there's also trust fund babies, so everything even's out, IMO)
Well trust fund babys arn't paid for by society it is just their family wealth that makes it so they don't have to work. Hardly comparable.

[caveBEAR]

Well trust fund babys arn't paid for by society it is just their family wealth that makes it so they don't have to work. Hardly comparable.

Not really. If you'd like to discuss people being grandfathered into their economic status (be it trust fund babies or welfare cases) that'd be fine, but the hard evidence shows that the smart money is on you never leaving your socioeconomic level. They are definitely comparable. Most trust fund babies don't work because the money is there for them. Some people don't want to work, and so they leech welfare, because the money is there for them.

Not saying what they do is right, but it most definitely is comparable. They're opposite ends of the same spectrum; swindlers.

[<*)))><]

Not really. If you'd like to discuss people being grandfathered into their economic status (be it trust fund babies or welfare cases) that'd be fine, but the hard evidence shows that the smart money is on you never leaving your socioeconomic level. They are definitely comparable. Most trust fund babies don't work because the money is there for them. Some people don't want to work, and so they leech welfare, because the money is there for them.

Not saying what they do is right, but it most definitely is comparable. They're opposite ends of the same spectrum; swindlers.
Well trust fund babys buy a lot and the money has been earned by someone and just left for them. Also you aren't born into welfare you have to choose to do nothing or not work. Id rather have more trust fund baby and less welfare because I have to pay for those someone else choose to pay for the babys.

[caveBEAR]

Well trust fund babys buy a lot and the money has been earned by someone and just left for them. Also you aren't born into welfare you have to choose to do nothing or not work. Id rather have more trust fund baby and less welfare because I have to pay for those someone else choose to pay for the babys.

Definitely not, and if you don't understand the socioeconomic situations that can lead anyone to need welfare (whether they want to work or not), then I will not :wallbash: with you.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

2 years??? really??

well, going on 26 months.

[<*)))><]

Definitely not, and if you don't understand the socioeconomic situations that can lead anyone to need welfare (whether they want to work or not), then I will not :wallbash: with you.
When you are born your parents can be on welfare but the child isn't. I guess you can say it counts for the years they are allowed on welfare later in life. For the most part people go on welfare when they are changing jobs, looking for jobs or just being lazy. While people who inherit their money are most likely going to spend and help create jobs.

[caveBEAR]

well, going on 26 months.

If you don't mind, why aren't you working?

[caveBEAR]

When you are born your parents can be on welfare but the child isn't. I guess you can say it counts for the years they are allowed on welfare later in life. For the most part people go on welfare when they are changing jobs, looking for jobs or just being lazy. While people who inherit their money are most likely going to spend and help create jobs.

That's fine, but you refered to everyone on welfare as being lazy (which isn't true), and says nothing about what they do for the economy, only about their attitude towards work. Some trust fund babies don't want to work. This speaks of their attitude. These two things are comparable.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

If you don't mind, why aren't you working?

I'm working part time

[rawesome]

When you are born your parents can be on welfare but the child isn't. I guess you can say it counts for the years they are allowed on welfare later in life. For the most part people go on welfare when they are changing jobs,looking for jobsor just being lazy. While people who inherit their money are most likely going to spend and help create jobs.
I think you'll find that the bolded is a very small minority, and even in those cases, as I said before, for some people it is preferable to making similar or only slightly more money by working multiple jobs, having no health insurance, and basically never sleeping. I imagine that you, too, would rather collect welfare than go through what some people have to just to get by living.

[caveBEAR]

I'm working part time

Really? By your welfare status, I naturally assumed you were lazy and a bad person. Hmmm. Learn something new everyday... :rolleyes:



Shit sucks out there, if I didn't luck into a better situation recently, I'd be in the exact same boat as you, and I've never had a tough time finding work before.

[rawesome]

Jesus, guys. Why can't you just go to college like me. I mean, I get plenty of money from the government to pay for my schooli...oh wait...shit.

I'm part of the great burden on America.

[<*)))><]

That's fine, but you refered to everyone on welfare as being lazy (which isn't true), and says nothing about what they do for the economy, only about their attitude towards work. Some trust fund babies don't want to work. This speaks of their attitude. These two things are comparable.
When did I say everyone single person who is on welfare is just someone who doesn't want to work? But I'm sure some people make it their job to collect welfare and choose not to work. One of my friends graduated last spring from college and instead of looking for a job he just ran straight to collect free money. I think that if someone wants to go on welfare for over a year they should be given a public service job a few days a week in order to rationalize it. Why should people who inherit money work they have money, security and all they need. They were born in to wealth and don't have to do a thing.

I think you'll find that the bolded is a very small minority, and even in those cases, as I said before, for some people it is preferable to making similar or only slightly more money by working multiple jobs, having no health insurance, and basically never sleeping. I imagine that you, too, would rather collect welfare than go through what some people have to just to get by living.
Well who wouldn't want to collect welfare? Free money is free money

[rawesome]

When did I say everyone single person who is on welfare is just someone who doesn't want to work? But I'm sure some people make it their job to collect welfare and choose not to work. One of my friends graduated last spring from college and instead of looking for a job he just ran straight to collect free money. I think that if someone wants to go on welfare for over a year they should be given a public service job a few days a week in order to rationalize it. Why should people who inherit money work they have money, security and all they need. They were born in to wealth and don't have to do a thing.


Well who wouldn't want to collect welfare? Free money is free money
Just out of curiosity, what makes one person contributing nothing to society okay, but another one not? I mean, I'm not here to defend gaming the system, and I don't think anyone is, but you seem to be okay with the idea of making some people work very hard to provide for the families of these trust fund kids, which in the end amounts to the same as welfare.

[caveBEAR]

When did I say everyone single person who is on welfare is just someone who doesn't want to work?

You didn't outright say it, but it was hinted. As a matter of fact, this is what most people do. That's the problem. When you even bring up the fact that 'some' people get welfare because they're lazy, you're blowing a very small portion of that population up to prove a point that doesn't exist. It'd be like condemning police because 'some people become police just so they can fuck with people'. Sure, they're a problem, but they are a problem on the whole, the whole is not the problem.

But I'm sure some people make it their job to collect welfare and choose not to work. One of my friends graduated last spring from college and instead of looking for a job he just ran straight to collect free money.

So? There are also people with houses who panhandle everyday. Some people do weird shit to make money. Some people are lazy. Your friend is an asshole.

I think that if someone wants to go on welfare for over a year they should be given a public service job a few days a week in order to rationalize it.

Good idea. That's a positive proactive approach to the situation (that even benefits the community) that would be much better suited than 'lazy people get on welfare'.

Why should people who inherit money work they have money, security and all they need. They were born in to wealth and don't have to do a thing.

Because it's not their money. You're only changing your opinion because it's your money involved, not due to the principle, which is ridiculous.

Trust fund kid - has a situation where money is available - chooses to take money rather than work
Person on welfare - has a situation where money is available - chooses to take money rather than work

The only difference here is that your money is involved, not the principle of the situation, and that's stupid as such a small percent of your money goes to welfare and such a small percentage of people on welfare abuse the system that it'd be like not paying your taxes because someone at the water plant may steal home filters; it's ridiculous.

Well who wouldn't want to collect welfare? Free money is free money

I wouldn't. It's a respect thing, actually working to earn your keep. Welfare is a safety net. Welfare abusers and trust fund babies annoy me because neither of them have the ethic to actually work.

[xshady121]

You didn't outright say it, but it was hinted. As a matter of fact, this is what most people do. That's the problem. When you even bring up the fact that 'some' people get welfare because they're lazy, you're blowing a very small portion of that population up to prove a point that doesn't exist. It'd be like condemning police because 'some people become police just so they can fuck with people'. Sure, they're a problem, but they are a problem on the whole, the whole is not the problem.



So? There are also people with houses who panhandle everyday. Some people do weird shit to make money. Some people are lazy. Your friend is an asshole.



Good idea. That's a positive proactive approach to the situation (that even benefits the community) that would be much better suited than 'lazy people get on welfare'.



Because it's not their money. You're only changing your opinion because it's your money involved, not due to the principle, which is ridiculous.

Trust fund kid - has a situation where money is available - chooses to take money rather than work
Person on welfare - has a situation where money is available - chooses to take money rather than work

The only difference here is that your money is involved, not the principle of the situation, and that's stupid as such a small percent of your money goes to welfare and such a small percentage of people on welfare abuse the system that it'd be like not paying your taxes because someone at the water plant may steal home filters; it's ridiculous.



I wouldn't. It's a respect thing, actually working to earn your keep. Welfare is a safety net. Welfare abusers and trust fund babies annoy me because neither of them have the ethic to actually work.

You're leaving out the trust fund babies that collect (some form of) welfare.

[caveBEAR]

You're leaving out the trust fund babies that collect (some form of) welfare.

I wasn't aware there was such a thing, but if I ever go to jail for 'hate-rape', you'll know I stumbled across one.

[xshady121]

I wasn't aware there was such a thing, but if I ever go to jail for 'hate-rape', you'll know I stumbled across one.

In Massachusetts, and I'm sure it is also the case in other states, you can collect food stamps if you have filled out a fafsa and do not have any current job (or, if you are a work study student but make below a certain amount a month). Thus, you can be a college kid from a rich family but still live off of food stamps because technically you have no means of providing for yourself

[Plutonio]

The only difference here is that your money is involved, not the principle of the situation, and that's stupid as such a small percent of your money goes to welfare and such a small percentage of people on welfare abuse the system that it'd be like not paying your taxes because someone at the water plant may steal home filters; it's ridiculous.
This.

[caveBEAR]

In Massachusetts, and I'm sure it is also the case in other states, you can collect food stamps if you have filled out a fafsa and do not have any current job (or, if you are a work study student but make below a certain amount a month). Thus, you can be a college kid from a rich family but still live off of food stamps because technically you have no means of providing for yourself

In Florida, I have to wait until I'm 24, married or in the military to receive financial aid because my parents (who I haven't lived with since I was 19) make too much money (and, ha ha ha ha ha, they don't make that much at all. Ones a teacher, one does some kind of nursing...thing. I don't know).

I have to wait until the next school year to get back into class because I can't get financial aid...meanwhile, I can't scrape two dimes together. It sucks.



Or, I could have knocked a girl up years ago, married her, and circumvented the entire system.

[Plutonio]

In Massachusetts, and I'm sure it is also the case in other states, you can collect food stamps if you have filled out a fafsa and do not have any current job (or, if you are a work study student but make below a certain amount a month). Thus, you can be a college kid from a rich family but still live off of food stamps because technically you have no means of providing for yourself
That is like saying that fat people have no means of getting to the fridge to eat. Are there no background checks that go into this? Shouldn't trust-fund babaies be rejected at the door?

[Plutonio]

In Florida, I have to wait until I'm 24, married or in the military to receive financial aid because my parents (who I haven't lived with since I was 19) make too much money (and, ha ha ha ha ha, they don't make that much at all. Ones a teacher, one does some kind of nursing...thing. I don't know).

I have to wait until the next school year to get back into class because I can't get financial aid...meanwhile, I can't scrape two dimes together. It sucks.



Or, I could have knocked a girl up years ago, married her, and circumvented the entire system.
So middle-class/impovishered people cannot get financial aid but trust-fund babies can?

[xshady121]

That is like saying that fat people have no means of getting to the fridge to eat. Are there no background checks that go into this? Shouldn't trust-fund babaies be rejected at the door?

No they shouldn't. I mean, if you go to college in MA and your family is in NY, and you're living on your own, technically you have no way to survive. I understand why they do it, and I agree with it. I do know plenty of college kids that are struggling to get by right now. Is it abused? Sure. Is the system flawed? Sure. Should they tell you "well, your family makes too much so even though you live on your own (as bear described) your families (who you no longer live with) income precludes you from government assistance". Hell no.

[caveBEAR]

So middle-class/impovishered people cannot get financial aid but trust-fund babies can?

I make ~ $125 a week. (Middle-class ain't the word ;-) )

[xshady121]

So middle-class/impovishered people cannot get financial aid but trust-fund babies can?

Have you applied for fafsa? Unless you are dirt, dirt, dirt poor, you're not getting any sort of money from the government. However, I said for the above quote filled out a fafsa and not received any sort of money from fafsa. Big difference.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Really? By your welfare status, I naturally assumed you were lazy and a bad person. Hmmm. Learn something new everyday... :rolleyes:

I'm the male version of this:

http://blogs.bet.com/entertainment/whattheflick/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/monique-precious.jpg

[<*)))><]

Just out of curiosity, what makes one person contributing nothing to society okay, but another one not? I mean, I'm not here to defend gaming the system, and I don't think anyone is, but you seem to be okay with the idea of making some people work very hard to provide for the families of these trust fund kids, which in the end amounts to the same as welfare.

It is my family that worked for the money not some stranger that I don't know. If my grandparents died I'd be left with a pretty nice sum of $$$ but for me it doesn't mean I wouldn't get a job and try to gain more wealth. In the mean time Id invest that money and that would help other unlike people on welfare they just use to on like necessity which I guess helps spending but I feel like it would of been better spent if it was spent by the person who earned the money.

You didn't outright say it, but it was hinted. As a matter of fact, this is what most people do. That's the problem. When you even bring up the fact that 'some' people get welfare because they're lazy, you're blowing a very small portion of that population up to prove a point that doesn't exist. It'd be like condemning police because 'some people become police just so they can fuck with people'. Sure, they're a problem, but they are a problem on the whole, the whole is not the problem.



So? There are also people with houses who panhandle everyday. Some people do weird shit to make money. Some people are lazy. Your friend is an asshole.



Good idea. That's a positive proactive approach to the situation (that even benefits the community) that would be much better suited than 'lazy people get on welfare'.



Because it's not their money. You're only changing your opinion because it's your money involved, not due to the principle, which is ridiculous.

Trust fund kid - has a situation where money is available - chooses to take money rather than work
Person on welfare - has a situation where money is available - chooses to take money rather than work

The only difference here is that your money is involved, not the principle of the situation, and that's stupid as such a small percent of your money goes to welfare and such a small percentage of people on welfare abuse the system that it'd be like not paying your taxes because someone at the water plant may steal home filters; it's ridiculous.



I wouldn't. It's a respect thing, actually working to earn your keep. Welfare is a safety net. Welfare abusers and trust fund babies annoy me because neither of them have the ethic to actually work.
Not all trust fund babies have no work ethic how can assume such a thing. Hypocrite

[caveBEAR]

No they shouldn't. I mean, if you go to college in MA and your family is in NY, and you're living on your own, technically you have no way to survive. I understand why they do it, and I agree with it. I do know plenty of college kids that are struggling to get by right now. Is it abused? Sure. Is the system flawed? Sure. Should they tell you "well, your family makes too much so even though you live on your own (as bear described) your families (who you no longer live with) income precludes you from government assistance". Hell no.

Yeah, I agree. I long for a system like you have. It's not fair to assume just because someone's parents are well off that their associations with the parents are good.

[xshady121]

It is my family that worked for the money not some stranger that I don't know. If my grandparents died I'd be left with a pretty nice sum of $$$ but for me it doesn't mean I wouldn't get a job and try to gain more wealth. In the mean time Id invest that money and that would help other unlike people on welfare they just use to on like necessity which I guess helps spending but I feel like it would of been better spent if it was spent by the person who earned the money.


Not all trust fund babies have no work ethic how can assume such a thing. Hypocrite

Surprisingly agreed with the bolded.

[xshady121]

Yeah, I agree. I long for a system like you have. It's not fair to assume just because someone's parents are well off that their associations with the parents are good.

So it's settled. You're moving to MA. Awesome.

[caveBEAR]

Not all trust fund babies have no work ethic how can assume such a thing. Hypocrite

Yes. Yes, they do. That's what makes them a 'trust fund baby'. They're people who leech the trust fund. People who have a trust fund but go to work everyday are called 'people'.

Way to blow off my entire post with an asinine half-retort, you twat.

[<*)))><]

Surprisingly agreed with the bolded.
Didn't agree with the hypocrite part?

[caveBEAR]

Surprisingly agreed with the bolded.

I've never refered to a 'trust fund baby' as anyone but someone who takes advantage of the trust fund (and nothing else), so my context could be off here.

So it's settled. You're moving to MA. Awesome.

I'm sure as shit not staying in Florida.

[rawesome]

It is my family that worked for the money not some stranger that I don't know. If my grandparents died I'd be left with a pretty nice sum of $$$ but for me it doesn't mean I wouldn't get a job and try to gain more wealth. In the mean time Id invest that money and that would help other unlike people on welfare they just use to on like necessity which I guess helps spending but I feel like it would of been better spent if it was spent by the person who earned the money.

But really, especially with the case of most trust fund kids, some stranger is the reason why they have so much money. That's how they make a profit, by finding cheap labor at the lowest possible wage amount, which results in a profit for their company. They take that profit and keep it, eventually building up a trust fund for their kid. That kid is still using money that somebody else actually did the work to "earn."

Or, the whole system is silly because workers at any level but the highest in a company do a shit ton of work, and then hand their work over to their employer who rewards them monetarily, only to turn around and sell that product for a profit. This means that these trust fund kids indirectly are reaping the fruits of someone else's labor.

[caveBEAR]

Or, the whole system is silly because workers at any level but the highest in a company do a shit ton of work, and then hand their work over to their employer who rewards them monetarily, only to turn around and sell that product for a profit.

This has always been my biggest problem with...everything. We go to work to (in most cases) do or make something to get paid so that we can go buy some shit from the same companies/people we were just making the shit for.

[rawesome]

This has always been my biggest problem with...everything. We go to work to (in most cases) do or make something to get paid so that we can go buy some shit from the same companies/people we were just making the shit for.
I mean, people can debate the merits of that system, it wasn't the point of my post. What was the point was that Capitalism in a lot of ways isn't all that far off from welfare.

[<*)))><]

Yes. Yes, they do. That's what makes them a 'trust fund baby'. They're people who leech the trust fund. People who have a trust fund but go to work everyday are called 'people'.

Way to blow off my entire post with an asinine half-retort, you twat.
Well then I guess it makes everyone on welfare lazy, that is the way you see it. People on welfare just leech off society and Uncle Sam. People who are on welfare don't go to work, well unless they have to pick up the check. Now because you want me I will respond to all your points


My friend is an asshole but man he can drink a lot of beer.


They use to have something called welfare at work but I believe they got rid of it because it is was to hard for the people on welfare.

So you're saying it is ridiculous because they are different? One I lose money the other I don't so that means they are the same? Not at all. If you have a trust fund you have great wealth and have no reason to work so why should you? Then when they gain more money you will be mad at them because they are even wealthier and the gap between upper and lower class are widening. If anything you should think that it is a good thing because you hate people with money. So they wont earn anything making you happy.



Trust fund- chooose to take parents money rather than work
Welfare- chooses to take my money rather than work



Someone is in the government is stealing, oh my god breaking news! My dad works had so when he passes me and my sister can be left financially secure. It is the love of the parents who wanted to work hard to make sure their children can have a nice life. It is the American dream.

[caveBEAR]

I mean, people can debate the merits of that system, it wasn't the point of my post. What was the point was that Capitalism in a lot of ways isn't all that far off from welfare.

Agreed. Unless you're indepently quite wealthy, you're probably reliant on some other entity for work/income, and even if you are indepently wealthy, you probably rely on all those other 'underlings' to keep you up.

[<*)))><]

But really, especially with the case of most trust fund kids, some stranger is the reason why they have so much money. That's how they make a profit, by finding cheap labor at the lowest possible wage amount, which results in a profit for their company. They take that profit and keep it, eventually building up a trust fund for their kid. That kid is still using money that somebody else actually did the work to "earn."

Or, the whole system is silly because workers at any level but the highest in a company do a shit ton of work, and then hand their work over to their employer who rewards them monetarily, only to turn around and sell that product for a profit. This means that these trust fund kids indirectly are reaping the fruits of someone else's labor.
LOLWHAT?

So my grandpa who had a small business was evil because he sold stuff for a profit?

[rawesome]

Agreed. Unless you're indepently quite wealthy, you're probably reliant on some other entity for work/income, and even if you are indepently wealthy, you probably rely on all those other 'underlings' to keep you up.
:clap: Winner.

[<*)))><]

Agreed. Unless you're indepently quite wealthy, you're probably reliant on some other entity for work/income, and even if you are indepently wealthy, you probably rely on all those other 'underlings' to keep you up.
Small business is the greatest way to obtain wealth in this country. So yeah you're wrong that they need "underling" because they take the risk themselves and take the reward.

[rawesome]

LOLWHAT?

So my grandpa who had a small business was evil because he sold stuff for a profit?
No? Your grandpa who had a small business was still involved in a system of commerce that required him to profit off of other' people's work. Unless he hand built everything he sold, with raw materials he gathered on his own, than he was making a profit based on someone else's labor.

Again, I'm not here to judge the system, but it is what it is.

[caveBEAR]

Well then I guess it makes everyone on welfare lazy, that is the way you see it. People on welfare just leech off society and Uncle Sam. People who are on welfare don't go to work, well unless they have to pick up the check. Now because you want me I will respond to all your points

:wallbash: I associate the term 'trust fund baby' with someone who uses nothing else but the trust fund, so to inject 'anyone who has a trust fund' into that scenario skews my entire point. I thought that my post to you (and shady) would have made that clear, but you still could be functionally retarded, so I can't be too sure.



My friend is an asshole but man he can drink a lot of beer.


They use to have something called welfare at work but I believe they got rid of it because it is was to hard for the people on welfare.

So you're saying it is ridiculous because they are different? One I lose money the other I don't so that means they are the same? Not at all. If you have a trust fund you have great wealth and have no reason to work so why should you? Then when they gain more money you will be mad at them because they are even wealthier and the gap between upper and lower class are widening. If anything you should think that it is a good thing because you hate people with money. So they wont earn anything making you happy.



Trust fund- chooose to take parents money rather than work
Welfare- chooses to take my money rather than work



Someone is in the government is stealing, oh my god breaking news! My dad works had so when he passes me and my sister can be left financially secure. It is the love of the parents who wanted to work hard to make sure their children can have a nice life. It is the American dream.


I'm not going back and matching all these up because you couldn't have been bothered the first time. You can either match them all up in a new quote or edit, or I don't give enough of a shit to look at the answers.

[caveBEAR]

Small business is the greatest way to obtain wealth in this country. So yeah you're wrong that they need "underling" because they take the risk themselves and take the reward.

I work in a pizzeria owned by three inept family members who happen to have enough money to pay for all the taxes, fees and bills that come with owning a business.

It is run by about 8 minimum wage workers (myself included) who bust our asses just to get a pittance from these assholes who would lose the business if we weren't so fucked by the current economy that we can't leave.

The systems damaged if not broken, and you're shining an idealistic, simplistic, and uneducated/unrealistic light on this entire subject. God damn, just let the fucking grown-ups talk.

[rawesome]

I work in a pizzeria owned by three inept family members who happen to have enough money to pay for all the taxes, fees and bills that come with owning a business.

It is run by about 8 minimum wage workers (myself included) who bust our asses just to get a pittance from these assholes who would lose the business if we weren't so fucked by the current economy that we can't leave.

The systems damaged if not broken, and you're shining an idealistic, simplistic, and uneducated/unrealistic light on this entire subject. God damn, just let the fucking grown-ups talk.
I believe, without trying to come off as an arrogant prick, that he either doesn't understand how the exchange of product works, is confused by what we're saying, is a troll, or is just intentionally skewing the argument to make us sound like we're anti-small business and anti-anyone owning property and being happy.

[<*)))><]

No? Your grandpa who had a small business was still involved in a system of commerce that required him to profit off of other' people's work. Unless he hand built everything he sold, with raw materials he gathered on his own, than he was making a profit based on someone else's labor.

Again, I'm not here to judge the system, but it is what it is.
My grandpa served in the army then got a job making furniture then after a number of years he finally got enough money to start a business. He happen to be really good at running it and make a lot of money. He risked everything with the hope that one day he will be able to give his children a nice life. Then you have fucking nerve to call him evil because he was an average Joe who saved, invested and worked hard. He never went to college but he gave my grandma a chance and she graduated from NYU, when traditionally she should of been taking care of her 3 children. But him being such a nice guy he hired a nanny to help my grandma raise the children. He lived the American dream of working hard and obtaining great wealth then you say it was all because he stole IT. Fuck you and learn what the fuck you are talking about

[caveBEAR]

I believe, without trying to come off as an arrogant prick, that he either doesn't understand how the exchange of product works, is confused by what we're saying, is a troll, or is just intentionally skewing the argument to make us sound like we're anti-small business and anti-anyone owning property and being happy.

Exactly what I believe.

[caveBEAR]

My grandpa served in the army then got a job making furniture then after a number of years he finally got enough money to start a business. He happen to be really good at running it and make a lot of money. He risked everything with the hope that one day he will be able to give his children a nice life. Then you have fucking nerve to call him evil because he was an average Joe who saved, invested and worked hard. He never went to college but he gave my grandma a chance and she graduated from NYU, when traditionally she should of been taking care of her 3 children. But him being such a nice guy he hired a nanny to help my grandma raise the children. He lived the American dream of working hard and obtaining great wealth then you say it was all because he stole IT. Fuck you and learn what the fuck you are talking about

:lol:


God, you're either not good at subtle, sarcastic comedy or you're a mental toddler.

[<*)))><]

I work in a pizzeria owned by three inept family members who happen to have enough money to pay for all the taxes, fees and bills that come with owning a business.

It is run by about 8 minimum wage workers (myself included) who bust our asses just to get a pittance from these assholes who would lose the business if we weren't so fucked by the current economy that we can't leave.

The systems damaged if not broken, and you're shining an idealistic, simplistic, and uneducated/unrealistic light on this entire subject. God damn, just let the fucking grown-ups talk.

Why should you be paid more it is not like you are doing anything special any idiot can work at a pizza place. Yes you can leave even during a bad economy if you can make someone money then you got a job. If people started business and didn't make money why would anyone have a business? For a grown-up you are honestly a fucking idiot. Here is your point "ohh no someone using me to make themselves money, they are evil'. Well you are making money to so don't complain.

[<*)))><]

:lol:


God, you're either not good at subtle, sarcastic comedy or you're a mental toddler.
How can that be taken as subtle or comedy? It is saying my grandpa worked hard to give his children a nice life and you hate him for it.

[rawesome]

My grandpa served in the army then got a job making furniture then after a number of years he finally got enough money to start a business. He happen to be really good at running it and make a lot of money. He risked everything with the hope that one day he will be able to give his children a nice life. Then you have fucking nerve to call him evil because he was an average Joe who saved, invested and worked hard. He never went to college but he gave my grandma a chance and she graduated from NYU, when traditionally she should of been taking care of her 3 children. But him being such a nice guy he hired a nanny to help my grandma raise the children. He lived the American dream of working hard and obtaining great wealth then you say it was all because he stole IT. Fuck you and learn what the fuck you are talking about
K, well, you're tough to deal with.

Let's recap.
LOLWHAT?

So my grandpa who had a small business was evil because he sold stuff for a profit?
No? Your grandpa who had a small business was still involved in a system of commerce that required him to profit off of other' people's work. Unless he hand built everything he sold, with raw materials he gathered on his own, than he was making a profit based on someone else's labor.

Again, I'm not here to judge the system, but it is what it is.
First, please re-read the bolded.

Look, not only am I NOT anti-small business, I'm actually very pro-small business. I also NEVER EVER EVER FUCKING EVER said your grandpa was "evil" (only you did, harboring some issues?) and I respect what he did with his life. All I'm saying is that THE WAY THAT A CAPITALISTIC SYSTEM WORKS means that everyone benefits from work that someone else does. Your grandpa benefited by getting the materials to make his furniture, which was the result of someone else making a profit off of selling their furniture. They made a profit because they had someone doing the work of gathering the raw materials for them, and they paid them the lowest amount possible that said worker was willing to accept for that job. They then turned around and sold those materials to your wonderful fucking grandpa for more than it cost them to get the materials, so they could make a profit.

Ergo, your grandpa was assisted in his work by the guy selling the material, who profited off of his employee. Your grandpa used that material to make furniture, which, I'll assume, he sold for more than it cost him to make it. Tah-dah!

I'd also like to point out that I've been extremely civil with you even though you appear stupid as Hell, so I'd like to suggest that maybe you "learn what the fuck you are talking about."

[caveBEAR]

Why should you be paid more it is not like you are doing anything special any idiot can work at a pizza place. Yes you can leave even during a bad economy if you can make someone money then you got a job. If people started business and didn't make money why would anyone have a business? For a grown-up you are honestly a fucking idiot. Here is your point "ohh no someone using me to make themselves money, they are evil'. Well you are making money to so don't complain.

Ha.

You've obviously never worked in a busy one, and us 8 are busy 'grand re-opening' our restaurant, for which I redesigned our menu, etc., just basically, you don't know what I do at my job.

The point is, my place of work is owned by two idiots who have a rich daddy. 8 people get paid minimum wage to do all the work, and at the end of the day, Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum take almost all the money home, because, hey, Daddy bought them the register.

I know you don't understand any of this, so at this point, it's all merely for the spectators. I'm done with you.

[<*)))><]

K, well, you're tough to deal with.

Let's recap.


First, please re-read the bolded.

Look, not only am I NOT anti-small business, I'm actually very pro-small business. I also NEVER EVER EVER FUCKING EVER said your grandpa was "evil" (only you did, harboring some issues?) and I respect what he did with his life. All I'm saying is that THE WAY THAT A CAPITALISTIC SYSTEM WORKS means that everyone benefits from work that someone else does. Your grandpa benefited by getting the materials to make his furniture, which was the result of someone else making a profit off of selling their furniture. They made a profit because they had someone doing the work of gathering the raw materials for them, and they paid them the lowest amount possible that said worker was willing to accept for that job. They then turned around and sold those materials to your wonderful fucking grandpa for more than it cost them to get the materials, so they could make a profit.

Ergo, your grandpa was assisted in his work by the guy selling the material, who profited off of his employee. Your grandpa used that material to make furniture, which, I'll assume, he sold for more than it cost him to make it. Tah-dah!

I'd also like to point out that I've been extremely civil with you even though you appear stupid as Hell, so I'd like to suggest that maybe you "learn what the fuck you are talking about."
He was the person who hired to make money for factory. He was the bottom of the chain and moved up which is the way how the capitalistic system works. I didn't put it in cap-locks because that is just like yelling or clapping to make your point sounds better.

[caveBEAR]

God, you're either not good at subtle, sarcastic comedy or you're a mental toddler.

How can that be taken as subtle or comedy?

As I thought, mental toddler.

It is saying my grandpa worked hard to give his children a nice life and you hate him for it.

I don't hate your Grandfather, I don't know him. If he suppled his workers with wages that allowed them to live nice lives as well, then I commend him. If he didn't, then I have nothing against him, but feel he is part of a broken system.

[rawesome]

He was the person who hired to make money for factory. He was the bottom of the chain and moved up which is the way how the capitalistic system works. I didn't put it in cap-locks because that is just like yelling or clapping to make your point sounds better.
You just ranted about how he was a Great American Hero because he owned a small business. Now you're saying he worked for a factory?

Are you saying that he sold his product to a factory?

I mean really, this sentence:
He was the person who hired to make money for factory.makes no sense. I'm about done talking to you.

[<*)))><]

Ha.

You've obviously never worked in a busy one, and us 8 are busy 'grand re-opening' our restaurant, for which I redesigned our menu, etc., just basically, you don't know what I do at my job.

The point is, my place of work is owned by two idiots who have a rich daddy. 8 people get paid minimum wage to do all the work, and at the end of the day, Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum take almost all the money home, because, hey, Daddy bought them the register.

I know you don't understand any of this, so at this point, it's all merely for the spectators. I'm done with you.
I use to deliver for a pizza place that main business came from 3 towns, in a populated suburb. Those idiots arn't your trust fund baby because they are doing something. Investing in a pizza place and just happen to be smart enough to run a turn key operation. Why should you get paid more? If they fire you they can look outside and find 20 other people who will do the same job as you for the same amount. You shouldn't make more money because the owners are making a profit. If they didn't make a profit you wouldn't have a job.

[<*)))><]

You just ranted about how he was a Great American Hero because he owned a small business. Now you're saying he worked for a factory?

Are you saying that he sold his product to a factory?

I mean really, this sentence:
makes no sense. I'm about done talking to you.
Before he could start a business he had to make money and he worked for a factory making furniture.

[rawesome]

Before he could start a business he had to make money and he worked for a factory making furniture.
Okay. What is the point you're trying to make?

[<*)))><]

As I thought, mental toddler.



I don't hate your Grandfather, I don't know him. If he suppled his workers with wages that allowed them to live nice lives as well, then I commend him. If he didn't, then I have nothing against him, but feel he is part of a broken system.
Why should he give his money to some idiot he hired to lift car parts? He risked so he gets rewarded average joe did not so they don't.

[<*)))><]

Okay. What is the point you're trying to make?
He started at the bottom and made his way to the top.

[rawesome]

He started at the bottom and made his way to the top.
That has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.

[caveBEAR]

Why should he give his money to some idiot he hired to lift car parts? He risked so he gets rewarded average joe did not so they don't.

He doesn't have to. I just think that means the system fucks the 'average joe', and putting yourself at risk shouldn't be the only way to make a good living.

I believe this is the point where we agree to disagree/our comprehension levels differ.

[Plutonio]

I'm the male version of this:

http://blogs.bet.com/entertainment/whattheflick/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/monique-precious.jpg
I'm watching Precious right now for the ninth time. I'm at the part where Precious learns she has HIV.
Have you applied for fafsa? Unless you are dirt, dirt, dirt poor, you're not getting any sort of money from the government. However, I said for the above quote filled out a fafsa and not received any sort of money from fafsa. Big difference.
Misread that.
I make ~ $125 a week. (Middle-class ain't the word ;-) ) Well, at least you make 6500 bucks a year.

No they shouldn't. I mean, if you go to college in MA and your family is in NY, and you're living on your own, technically you have no way to survive. I understand why they do it, and I agree with it. I do know plenty of college kids that are struggling to get by right now. Is it abused? Sure. Is the system flawed? Sure. Should they tell you "well, your family makes too much so even though you live on your own (as bear described) your families (who you no longer live with) income precludes you from government assistance". Hell no.
I see your point, but people can still wire money, get jobs, etc. before doing such a thing, and I understand most do, but there is a small minority who don't.

[<*)))><]

He doesn't have to. I just think that means the system fucks the 'average joe', and putting yourself at risk shouldn't be the only way to make a good living.

I believe this is the point where we agree to disagree/our comprehension levels differ.
If you don't want to be put at risk then take the safer route but getting a job with a corporation they pay you your salary. Spend you years working for said company and hopefully they will reward you. But an amazing thing about our society is how easy it is to invest and create great wealth. With that $8 dollar wage you can put it in the stock market and watch the money grow. An example I know is when about 50 years you could of bought 100shares of lowes stock about $2000 and today it would be worth about 2,000,000. It is a small risk but it can have great rewards.

[Plutonio]

If you don't want to be put at risk then take the safer route but getting a job with a corporation they pay you your salary. Spend you years working for said company and hopefully they will reward you. But an amazing thing about our society is how easy it is to invest and create great wealth. With that $8 dollar wage you can put it in the stock market and watch the money grow. An example I know is when about 50 years you could of bought 100shares of lowes stock about $2000 and today it would be worth about 2,000,000. It is a small risk but it can have great rewards.
If someone is making eight dollars an hour they most likely shouldn't be putting any of it in a stock market. There's a difference between the blind dreams of wealth and actual stability. The latter is something which your grandfather chose. Yes, it's a risk to own a small business, but he's not Geffen. He made practical decisions and succeeded. He's not a wunderkind.

[vodyanoj]

That is incorrect. You're thinking of pure Marxist philosophy. Socialism doesn't really have any guidelines, as, like I said, it's sort of just an en route to Marxism government, but generally thought is that Socialism does require government ownership of industry.

Unless you're purely talking philosophy, in which case Socialism doesn't exist, so there is no "true Socialism."

Not quite. A socialist state is the sum total of the pepople, so state ownership pretty much equal public ownership, and there is nothing wrong with that. For some of the more succseeful forms of socialism see Scandinavian models: social democracy of that kind is a great idea, but sadly is only possible in small communities. (Power also devolves to small communities, which may have unpleasant implications).

[PaulPelc5]

I'm working part time

You and I are the same age. Is there something thats inhibiting you from working 2 part time jobs if you can't find a good full time job?? Now, I know things are a little better down here in Texas, but, I still see now hiring signs all over the city. Im a delivery driver, so, I see the lay of the land on a daily basis ha. I saw one yesterday that said "Forklift Operator 10-12 an hour". Ozarka is hiring all the time, and thats a walk in and start making 35-45 a year right off the bat with no college experience. You just have to work your ass off.

What im seeing alot in my life from these pro-socialism folks between 20-30 is that they arent getting the Starbucks manager/Whole Foods/Apple Store cool hipster jobs so they are so opting to not work at all. I think people just really get lazy and arent willing inconvenience themselves for just a little while to work a job or two that they dont like to get by. There's no shame in that. Before I finally landed this gig, I worked as an aide at a middle school during the day and a restaurant at night. A restaurant has crazy turnover and will basically let you work whenever you want... you just have to have the drive to do it and not give into the talking heads in the media and decide "well... im not making 60k a year, so, I guess i need help from the Government" dont buy it!!!

[<*)))><]

If someone is making eight dollars an hour they most likely shouldn't be putting any of it in a stock market. There's a difference between the blind dreams of wealth and actual stability. The latter is something which your grandfather chose. Yes, it's a risk to own a small business, but he's not Geffen. He made practical decisions and succeeded. He's not a wunderkind.
I make 8 dollars an hour and I invest.

[caveBEAR]

I make 8 dollars an hour and I invest.

What bills are you paying? What outstanding debt do you have?

[<*)))><]

What bills are you paying? What outstanding debt do you have?
I'm paying for college and I pay for food.

[rawspinner]

That's really admirable man. It really is. It's tough down here; it seems that I'm in the extreme minority when it comes to that particular subject. I really think with enough prayer, and imagination, we can make God's dream for the world a reality. It's just hard in a world that calls it "unrealistic".

Well, it doesn't have to start with financial decision. At the Intervarsity chapter here at Univ. of Toronto, we decided to axe large group meetings/bible studies all together. We stil lhave small group ones, but now on Mondays, instead of large group, we just meet to cook and share a meal together. Everyone tries to bring an ingredient and then people rotate in and out of cooking and cleaning up while others take some time just to socialize and catch up. One of the coolest things that happened was when we were chatting after dinner about just movies, and we started talking about how most of us wanted to The Book of Eli. It came out of nowehere, and one of our staff workers was like, "Hey, we should go see it right now." Completely spontaneously. We checked the trailer and times and a lot of us went to go see it. And it was so awesome because it was something as simple as going to go see a movie, but it was a really cool time for us to grow as a community.

I thinkyou're right and if we prayerfully and honestly seeks God's plan for our communities, he can grow them in knowledge of Him more than we could have imagined as well as changing how we view how communities function. I think the scripture is awesome because it shows what people genuinely and earnestly seeking after God looked like, and how that model doesn't necessarily change because the times and culture has changed. I'll pray for your community man, and that whatever God wants it to look like, he'll put it in your guys' hearts to seek after that.

[caveBEAR]

I'm paying for college and I pay for food.

Are you helped out by your parents, and do you pay for all your college or are you on scholarship? As well, who pays your phone bill, your insurance, your car payments, your rent?

[<*)))><]

Are you helped out by your parents, and do you pay for all your college or are you on scholarship? As well, who pays your phone bill, your insurance, your car payments, your rent?
Well I pay for half of my college, I pay the phone bill, half of my car insurance, the car was free but I was pay for the repairs( which feels like I spend $500 a week on keeping it running) and I live at home so no rent.

[inthemidst]

Well, it doesn't have to start with financial decision. At the Intervarsity chapter here at Univ. of Toronto, we decided to axe large group meetings/bible studies all together. We stil lhave small group ones, but now on Mondays, instead of large group, we just meet to cook and share a meal together. Everyone tries to bring an ingredient and then people rotate in and out of cooking and cleaning up while others take some time just to socialize and catch up. One of the coolest things that happened was when we were chatting after dinner about just movies, and we started talking about how most of us wanted to The Book of Eli. It came out of nowehere, and one of our staff workers was like, "Hey, we should go see it right now." Completely spontaneously. We checked the trailer and times and a lot of us went to go see it. And it was so awesome because it was something as simple as going to go see a movie, but it was a really cool time for us to grow as a community.

I thinkyou're right and if we prayerfully and honestly seeks God's plan for our communities, he can grow them in knowledge of Him more than we could have imagined as well as changing how we view how communities function. I think the scripture is awesome because it shows what people genuinely and earnestly seeking after God looked like, and how that model doesn't necessarily change because the times and culture has changed. I'll pray for your community man, and that whatever God wants it to look like, he'll put it in your guys' hearts to seek after that.

That's incredible, and a good choice of movie haha. Community is absolutely essential. Without it, none of us will grow spiritually as individuals. "Man is not meant to live alone".

I really appreciate that. I guess I just want everyone in our community to live with that kind of humility, and look out for others first, and themselves second. Especially the "least of these". We do have programs to help them, but in my immediate community (college age, young adults under 30), I feel like we're missing that hunger and desire for service to the needy.

[InTheatersNow]

I read about 3 posts in this thread and couldn't stomach it anymore. You kids need to stay in school and once you get to college make sure to stay away from people holding signs.

[caveBEAR]

Well I pay for half of my college, I pay the phone bill, half of my car insurance, the car was free but I was pay for the repairs( which feels like I spend $500 a week on keeping it running) and I live at home so no rent.

But yet, at only $8.00 an hour, you still manage to invest money? :rolleyes:

You reek of no real world experience, yet plenty of 'real world' advice.

[paper halo]

But yet, at only $8.00 an hour, you still manage to invest money? :rolleyes:

You reek of no real world experience, yet plenty of 'real world' advice.

Don't know why you're bothering, mate. This kid's shown before that he has no understanding of the concept of socialism, and a raging boner for capitalism, regardless of how many pesky 'facts' you throw at him.

[caveBEAR]

Don't know why you're bothering, mate. This kid's shown before that he has no understanding of the concept of socialism, and a raging boner for capitalism, regardless of how many pesky 'facts' you throw at him.

You don't fix something by ignoring it. :shrug:



Thanks for those links on the Thai situation, btw.

[paper halo]

You don't fix something by ignoring it. :shrug:

Admirable, but potentially a losing battle. Good luck.

Thanks for those links on the Thai situation, btw.

No problem.

[caveBEAR]

Admirable, but potentially a losing battle. Good luck.

I've been involved in a lot of losing battles here, but I still get a few good lines of logic in there hopefully, if for no one else than the lurkers hoping to actually learn something.

[<*)))><]

But yet, at only $8.00 an hour, you still manage to invest money? :rolleyes:

You reek of no real world experience, yet plenty of 'real world' advice.
I do it is isn't hard to invest $20 dollars a week and it really adds up. I been putting at least $20 a week from my pay check since I started working. I'm pretty sure most people can find $20 dollars a week they don't need to spend. I don't get what you mean I don't have real world experience, I work, I spend, I invest. Is that not real enough for your real world?

[rawesome]

Not quite. A socialist state is the sum total of the pepople, so state ownership pretty much equal public ownership, and there is nothing wrong with that. For some of the more succseeful forms of socialism see Scandinavian models: social democracy of that kind is a great idea, but sadly is only possible in small communities. (Power also devolves to small communities, which may have unpleasant implications).
See, this is where things get confusing. I've always equated that idea with "pure" Communism, with Socialism being more of the in-between phase in which the government is largely in control of economy and property. It may be incorrect, I think the issue arises when people just blatantly substitute the two terms for one another.

[paper halo]

See, this is where things get confusing. I've always equated that idea with "pure" Communism, with Socialism being more of the in-between phase in which the government is largely in control of economy and property. It may be incorrect, I think the issue arises when people just blatantly substitute the two terms for one another.

In Leninist-Marxist terms, socialism is a transitional phase between capitalism and communism. But there are many other branches and interpretations.

[Plutonio]

I'm paying for college and I pay for food.
Then you're retarded, or you eat once a week.

[<*)))><]

Then you're retarded, or you eat once a week.
Huh?

[Plutonio]

I do it is isn't hard to invest $20 dollars a week and it really adds up. I been putting at least $20 a week from my pay check since I started working. I'm pretty sure most people can find $20 dollars a week they don't need to spend. I don't get what you mean I don't have real world experience, I work, I spend, I invest. Is that not real enough for your real world?

Here's some simple math for you: Let's say you work 40 hours a week. 40x8=320. Subtract 20 dollars for investments and you have 300 dollars. 300x48=$14,400 a year. Subtract tuition (3,264 dollars a year) and you get 11136. Subtract 20 dollars per month for your phone bill, and you get 10,896 dollars a year. Now subtract groceries (let's say 350 dollars a month) and you get 6696 a month. If you subtract car repairs (200 a month if what you say is true and you get 2496. If you then take out any sort of health visits, about another 2500 a year, you get 1796. If you then take away any sort of personal needs/expenses, you would get about 1200. Then subtract recreational things/bills/other repairs, and you get next to nothing, if anything. Considering I left out utilities and such, you probably have outstanding debts, and most likely would go bankrupt if, let's say, you're car broke beyond repair. No work=no money=what you have. Now, if you make 450 bucks a year on investments, you really don't have that much to spend, if any money at all, now do you?

[Plutonio]

Huh?
Refer to the above post.

[caveBEAR]

Here's some simple math for you: Let's say you work 40 hours a week. 40x8=320. Subtract 20 dollars for investments and you have 300 dollars. 300x48=$14,400 a year. Subtract tuition (3,264 dollars a year) and you get 11136. Subtract 20 dollars per month for your phone bill, and you get 10,896 dollars a year. Now subtract groceries (let's say 350 dollars a month) and you get 6696 a month. If you subtract car repairs (200 a month if what you say is true and you get 2496. If you then take out any sort of health visits, about another 2500 a year, you get 1796. If you then take away any sort of personal needs/expenses, you would get about 1200. Then subtract recreational things/bills/other repairs, and you get next to nothing, if anything. Considering I left out utilities and such, you probably have outstanding debts, and most likely would go bankrupt if, let's say, you're car broke beyond repair. No work=no money=what you have. Now, if you make 450 bucks a year on investments, you really don't have that much to spend, if any money at all, now do you?

Thanks. Didn't want to have to do the math to prove to him how he'd flounder on that budget in the real world, let alone have money left to invest.

[<*)))><]

Here's some simple math for you: Let's say you work 40 hours a week. 40x8=320. Subtract 20 dollars for investments and you have 300 dollars. 300x48=$14,400 a year. Subtract tuition (3,264 dollars a year) and you get 11136. Subtract 20 dollars per month for your phone bill, and you get 10,896 dollars a year. Now subtract groceries (let's say 350 dollars a month) and you get 6696 a month. If you subtract car repairs (200 a month if what you say is true and you get 2496. If you then take out any sort of health visits, about another 2500 a year, you get 1796. If you then take away any sort of personal needs/expenses, you would get about 1200. Then subtract recreational things/bills/other repairs, and you get next to nothing, if anything. Considering I left out utilities and such, you probably have outstanding debts, and most likely would go bankrupt if, let's say, you're car broke beyond repair. No work=no money=what you have. Now, if you make 450 bucks a year on investments, you really don't have that much to spend, if any money at all, now do you?
Well I don't have any health visits so that takes out 2500 a year. Second I make more then 320 a week, a lot more during the summer. I don't spend on myself at all I save my extra money or invest it. All my recreational needs are covered by my job. Also from all my saving over the years I have 8,000 worth in stocks. Not bad for a 19 year old.

[Plutonio]

Thanks. Didn't want to have to do the math to prove to him how he'd flounder on that budget in the real world, let alone have money left to invest. You're welcome.

Well I don't have any health visits so that takes out 2500 a year. Second I make more then 320 a week, a lot more during the summer. I don't spend on myself at all I save my extra money or invest it. All my recreational needs are covered by my job. Also from all my saving over the years I have 8,000 worth in stocks. Not bad for a 19 year old.
That's impossible. Health fluxuates. Not spending on yourself could become dangerous, and that leaves no room for college time.

[<*)))><]

Thanks. Didn't want to have to do the math to prove to him how he'd flounder on that budget in the real world, let alone have money left to invest.
Most of the stuff he says is off my tuition is about half that. Plus I make way more per week and even more during the summer because of lovely tips. For food I basically eat celery, tuna and Tyson chicken which cost me about $40 a week. I got health insurance with a $25 dollar co pay and my dad repays me for that. I'm also reimbursement for all gas I use. I have no bills, he added repairs twice and all my recreational things I use my work for. When I go to partys I never have to pay because the frat I'm with owns a bar and the cover the tab.

[<*)))><]

You're welcome.


That's impossible. Health fluxuates. Not spending on yourself could become dangerous, and that leaves no room for college time.
Insurance!

[Plutonio]

Insurance!
Doesn't pay for everything. And other things need to be repaired. If the slightest occurrence happens to you, you're fucked. And you're blissfully oblivious.

[<*)))><]

Doesn't pay for everything. And other things need to be repaired. If the slightest occurrence happens to you, you're fucked. And you're blissfully oblivious.
What doesn't it pay for? I got pretty good insurance I never remember paying more then $25 for a doctor visits. That is ranging from dentist- checkups- getting a cast- xrays- emergency room.

[Plutonio]

What doesn't it pay for? I got pretty good insurance I never remember paying more then $25 for a doctor visits. That is ranging from dentist- checkups- getting a cast- xrays- emergency room.
What happens if you get hit by a car? Your insurance company goes bankrupt? Your insurance doesn't pay for something? Your car breaks?

[<*)))><]

What happens if you get hit by a car? Your insurance company goes bankrupt? Your insurance doesn't pay for something? Your car breaks?
Already happen insurance paid for my foot when I got hit by a car. Then I get another insurance company? I think the only thing my insurance doesn't cover is breast cancer. If my car breaks I get it fixed I got plenty saved up to fix it or if needed get a new car, which I might be getting in a few weeks. I think the question you are really missing is what happen is a super nova destroys the world how can I pay for that? Or what if Optimus Prime teams up with Darth Vader and they decide to destroy the world banking system, what can I do to save the world?

[Plutonio]

Already happen insurance paid for my foot when I got hit by a car. Then I get another insurance company? I think the only thing my insurance doesn't cover is breast cancer. If my car breaks I get it fixed I got plenty saved up to fix it or if needed get a new car, which I might be getting in a few weeks. I think the question you are really missing is what happen is a super nova destroys the world how can I pay for that? Or what if Optimus Prime teams up with Darth Vader and they decide to destroy the world banking system, what can I do to save the world?
You're missing my point. You are not invincible. Yet you assume all these things could not go wrong.

[zion the lion]

Already happen insurance paid for my foot when I got hit by a car. Then I get another insurance company? I think the only thing my insurance doesn't cover is breast cancer. If my car breaks I get it fixed I got plenty saved up to fix it or if needed get a new car, which I might be getting in a few weeks. I think the question you are really missing is what happen is a super nova destroys the world how can I pay for that? Or what if Optimus Prime teams up with Darth Vader and they decide to destroy the world banking system, what can I do to save the world?

Or just what if you get breast cancer?

[<*)))><]

You're missing my point. You are not invincible. Yet you assume all these things could not go wrong.
Well until Optimus Prime and Darth Vader team up, I'm good.

[<*)))><]

Or just what if you get breast cancer?
Then I'm pretty sure I'd get paid to get treated.

[paper halo]

Well until Optimus Prime and Darth Zader team up, I'm good.

*Vader.

[<*)))><]

*Vader.
Thank you.

[caveBEAR]

Most of the stuff he says is off my tuition is about half that. Plus I make way more per week and even more during the summer because of lovely tips. For food I basically eat celery, tuna and Tyson chicken which cost me about $40 a week. I got health insurance with a $25 dollar co pay and my dad repays me for that. I'm also reimbursement for all gas I use. I have no bills, he added repairs twice and all my recreational things I use my work for. When I go to partys I never have to pay because the frat I'm with owns a bar and the cover the tab.

Well, that's great for you, but you don't live in the 'real world'. As a matter of fact, compared to the average American, you're downright spoiled. Life's not as easy for everyone as it is for you, not all of us have Dad's reimbursing our insurance, jobs that give us recreation/tips, $40 food bills, etc.

Sure you can put money away at the end of the week, you don't have to give it all away.




You can't be as clueless to the rest of the world as you're coming off.

[Love As Arson]

I support a dictatorship of the proletariat.

[<*)))><]

Well, that's great for you, but you don't live in the 'real world'. As a matter of fact, compared to the average American, you're downright spoiled. Life's not as easy for everyone as it is for you, not all of us have Dad's reimbursing our insurance, jobs that give us recreation/tips, $40 food bills, etc.

Sure you can put money away at the end of the week, you don't have to give it all away.




You can't be as clueless to the rest of the world as you're coming off.
It is pretty easy to feed a person on $40 a week. I bet your job can cover food cost, when I worked for a pizza place I got food about face value. Most spoiled people don't tend to live off canned tuna.

[caveBEAR]

It is pretty easy to feed a person on $40 a week. I bet your job can cover food cost, when I worked for a pizza place I got food about face value. Most spoiled people don't tend to live off canned tuna.

Most people aren't just feeding themselves, they have families to feed. As well, my restaurant gives it's employees about a dollar off anything they want. It's not like the employees are able to go home without food shopping.

Oh, don't think you aren't spoiled because you're eating tuna. You get your Dad to pay you back for your health insurance.

[<*)))><]

Most people aren't just feeding themselves, they have families to feed. As well, my restaurant gives it's employees about a dollar off anything they want. It's not like the employees are able to go home without food shopping.

Oh, don't think you aren't spoiled because you're eating tuna. You get your Dad to pay you back for your health insurance.
Wont really matter soon because it is FREE, right and oh god I'm sorry if my parents care about my health. The point is that it is easy to make money just about any wage if you invest.

[caveBEAR]

Wont really matter soon because it is FREE, right and oh god I'm sorry if my parents care about my health. The point is that it is easy to make money just about any wage if you invest.

No. The point is that most people don't have Daddy footing their bills, and therefore can't afford things like food/utilities/bills, let alone have scratch left over to 'invest'.

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about, and that's OK. That's even really good for you, because the only way you can realy speak about having NO MONEY TO SPARE is having been there. Lucky for you, you seem to be (at least for the moment) spared from that situation.

An alarming number of Americans aren't.


Wake the fuck up.

[<*)))><]

No. The point is that most people don't have Daddy footing their bills, and therefore can't afford things like food/utilities/bills, let alone have scratch left over to 'invest'.

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about, and that's OK. That's even really good for you, because the only way you can realy speak about having NO MONEY TO SPARE is having been there. Lucky for you, you seem to be (at least for the moment) spared from that situation.

An alarming number of Americans aren't.


Wake the fuck up.
Most people care spare $20 bucks a week it isn't hard at all. Give up smoking or don't get popcorn when you see a movie.

[paper halo]

Most people care spare $20 bucks a week it isn't hard at all. Give up smoking or don't get popcorn when you see a movie.

Wrong. I can't spare that much at the moment, and havent been able to since before Christmas.

[<*)))><]

Wrong. I can't spare that much at the moment, and havent been able to since before Christmas.
Stop drinking starbucks problem solved.

[Plutonio]

Wont really matter soon because it is FREE, right and oh god I'm sorry if my parents care about my health. The point is that it is easy to make money just about any wage if you invest.
That's not his point. His point is that many parents simply don't have the money to finance themselves (they age and thus, they need more things) and their children, as you say your parents do. We're not making excuses, we're making points which you are dismissing based on ONE SINGLE example.


Here think of this:

A woman makes about $560 a week working 70 hours a week, every week with one or two weeks off-unpaid vacation. She has three children: an infant who needs, as you should know, several things for hygeine and sustenance; a pubescent teenager who needs new clothes on a regular basis and food; and a toddler. Only the teen is her own child. Her sister and brother-in-law died recently, and she was the godmother (the godfather died). Now while the house, car, and such are the same, the food, water, electricity, and other bills are tripled. She also is working seventy hours a week. That's not nearly enough money to pay for three children and yourself. If this woman has a disease like diabetes, she'll need to amp up her bills. If her new children have a disease that came from the other side of the family, then there's that to take care of. If they all fall ill, that's completely out the window. If one of them gets in trouble with the law, or injured, or any other amount of things, then do you think this woman will be able to invest while feeding, taking care of, and paying for another three children while working these long hours with very little pay? Most likely not. And if her investments fail, then she is again totally, one hundred percent fucked.

[Plutonio]

Most people care spare $20 bucks a week it isn't hard at all. Give up smoking or don't get popcorn when you see a movie.
A. The nicotine addiction is often cured via pills which cost money.
B. It's cheaper to smoke regularly than to do that and quit for most people. So either way, you're screwed.
C. MOST PEOPLE IN THIS SITUATION DON'T GO TO MOVIES AND THEY STILL DON'T HAVE THIS MONEY.
D. If you're trying to keep your house, your children in health, and yourself the same, then you're not investing money. It's most likely the LAST thing on your mind.

[<*)))><]

That's not his point. His point is that many parents simply don't have the money to finance themselves (they age and thus, they need more things) and their children, as you say your parents do. We're not making excuses, we're making points which you are dismissing based on ONE SINGLE example.


Here think of this:

A woman makes about $560 a week working 70 hours a week, every week with one or two weeks off-unpaid vacation. She has three children: an infant who needs, as you should know, several things for hygeine and sustenance; a pubescent teenager who needs new clothes on a regular basis and food; and a toddler. Only the teen is her own child. Her sister and brother-in-law died recently, and she was the godmother (the godfather died). Now while the house, car, and such are the same, the food, water, electricity, and other bills are tripled. She also is working seventy hours a week. That's not nearly enough money to pay for three children and yourself. If this woman has a disease like diabetes, she'll need to amp up her bills. If her new children have a disease that came from the other side of the family, then there's that to take care of. If they all fall ill, that's completely out the window. If one of them gets in trouble with the law, or injured, or any other amount of things, then do you think this woman will be able to invest while feeding, taking care of, and paying for another three children while working these long hours with very little pay? Most likely not. And if her investments fail, then she is again totally, one hundred percent fucked.
You forgot to mention that she is running from the law and is actually a giant a squid. She might not be able to invest but your average lower middle class family can. Some people can only get by living day to day and I believe it is mostly their fault. During normal economic times if they had an education they can get a better job but instead they had 4 kids. So for those people I don't really care about and I bet the example you gave she did the same thing.

[Plutonio]

You forgot to mention that she is running from the law and is actually a giant a squid. She might not be able to invest but your average lower middle class family can. Some people can only get by living day to day and I believe it is mostly their fault. During normal economic times if they had an education they can get a better job but instead they had 4 kids. So for those people I don't really care about and I bet the example you gave she did the same thing.
You're forgetting that people in normal economic times still struggle to go to college. People also are born into poverty, which is something you've grown blissfully ignorant to.

[<*)))><]

A. The nicotine addiction is often cured via pills which cost money.
B. It's cheaper to smoke regularly than to do that and quit for most people. So either way, you're screwed.
C. MOST PEOPLE IN THIS SITUATION DON'T GO TO MOVIES AND THEY STILL DON'T HAVE THIS MONEY.
D. If you're trying to keep your house, your children in health, and yourself the same, then you're not investing money. It's most likely the LAST thing on your mind.
I'm saying most people sure the bottom 10% of the population can't do shit because they are worthless.
A. I gave up smoking without expensive pills it aint hard, just need gotta not give in. Also pretty stupid for starting to smoke.
B. Get an electrical cigarette for about $100 never pay again
C. Most people do go to the movies
D. http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc328/AxelordFTW/CapLock2.jpg

[Plutonio]

What if a middle class family with an adequate paycheck have a child and it gets cancer?

What if another similar family experiences a flood, something which I know most people are not insured for?

[<*)))><]

You're forgetting that people in normal economic times still struggle to go to college. People also are born into poverty, which is something you've grown blissfully ignorant to.
Wrong I grown in poverty during most of my elementary- highschool I lived with my mom who was as broke as broke can get. She had a mortgage, two kids to take care, 12 hour work days making less then $20,000 a year. She saved some money and invested, now she uses it go on trips.

[<*)))><]

What if a middle class family with an adequate paycheck have a child and it gets cancer?

What if another similar family experiences a flood, something which I know most people are not insured for?
You love the what if game.
What if Denzel Washington shot you?
Also if they invested money for a long time they will have money to pay for that flood in Arizona or their son with breast cancer.

[paper halo]

Stop drinking starbucks problem solved.

Hilarious, asshole.

[<*)))><]

Hilarious, asshole.
It is $3 bucks for muffin, someone should call out the starbucks people as greedy businessmen.

[Plutonio]

I'm saying most people sure the bottom 10% of the population can't do shit because they are worthless.
A. I gave up smoking without expensive pills it aint hard, just need gotta not give in. Also pretty stupid for starting to smoke.
B. Get an electrical cigarette for about $100 never pay again
C. Most people do go to the movies
D. http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc328/AxelordFTW/CapLock2.jpg


A. Again, one person example.
B. Granted, many people should and could do this, but you are still missing the point.
C. Most people are not in this situation.
D.
no but yelling in this case is.

[Plutonio]

You love the what if game.
What if Denzel Washington shot you?
Also if they invested money for a long time they will have money to pay for that flood in Arizona or their son with breast cancer.
Investments don't always go so well.

[Plutonio]

Wrong I grown in poverty during most of my elementary- highschool I lived with my mom who was as broke as broke can get. She had a mortgage, two kids to take care, 12 hour work days making less then $20,000 a year. She saved some money and invested, now she uses it go on trips.
LISTEN: I mean really listen.
One person example.

[Plutonio]

It is $3 bucks for muffin, someone should call out the starbucks people as greedy businessmen.
that i can agree with. caribou coffee is worlds better.

[caveBEAR]

Most people care spare $20 bucks a week it isn't hard at all. Give up smoking or don't get popcorn when you see a movie.

Go see a movie!? You're so fucking out of touch, it's unbelievable.

[Machu505]

I haven't gone to see a movie in four months and I'm in high school.

[caveBEAR]

I haven't gone to see a movie in four months and I'm in high school.

I haven't gone to a movie since every cent I earned went to some bill or another.

[Plutonio]

The last movie I saw was The Lovely Bones, so I'm wary of American cinema.

[<*)))><]

LISTEN: I mean really listen.
One person example.

All of your examples are very very rare. The way to protect yourself is to have saved money. Im aware that hou can lose money but it in the long run most people will come out ahead. if you guys cant find a way to save $20 a week that is your problem. most normal people do not suffer crazy illness. but hey if you honest believe that no one can save your a special one. good night and good luck

[Plutonio]

All of your examples are very very rare. The way to protect yourself is to have saved money. Im aware that hou can lose money but it in the long run most people will come out ahead. if you guys cant find a way to save $20 a week that is your problem. most normal people do not suffer crazy illness. but hey if you honest believe that no one can save your a special one. good night and good luck
It's amazing how you still miss what we're saying./

I encourage those who can save and invest to do so. However, it is not always rational to put your investments over many other things. You act as though anyone can always invest weekly. However, in the case of emergency, that is not always possible, and like anything else, investments have risks.

[catscradle]

Good god, fishboy. i can't believe you STILL don't get what has been said and explained. Are you just that ignorant or just that arrogant?

[Theseventhson]

I liked you better when you were making an ass of yourself on purpose, Ted.

[samsara]

How can someone be so out of touch with the world?

[zion the lion]

Then I'm pretty sure I'd get paid to get treated.

What?

[xshady121]

What?

Don't feed him.

[Tec Mason]

Socialism is a tricky thing to debate, because so many people use the term to refer to different things. Often we yell at each other debating this without explicitly saying what each of our key words mean. Let me take a wack:

Socialism, the sharing of all stuff by everyone in a territory regardless of weather they want to is a terrible idea if the goal is to make society "better off" (which as a term itself is plagued with subjectivism). There is a calculation problem in socialist societies and a Hayekian information problem. In short, the overlords/central planners/democratic election cannot allocate resources to align with demand the way a price system can.

Socialism, the sharing of stuff by everyone in a territory voluntarily can, and often does work. This is because in voluntary socialism, there is often still non-pecuniary costs. In normal speak, this means that, while money prices don't exist because everything is shared, prices still exist in the form of social trade offs. If me and my brother share everything, he might not take all for himself because he knows i would be sad/mad and it costs him psychically to do that to me (or perhaps he fears being ostracized ).

Great topic.

[<*)))><]

It's amazing how you still miss what we're saying./

I encourage those who can save and invest to do so. However, it is not always rational to put your investments over many other things. You act as though anyone can always invest weekly. However, in the case of emergency, that is not always possible, and like anything else, investments have risks.
Well it is hard to invest if your arm is being chopped of by a shark with a laser on it's head. But for most people it is pretty easy, and in the long most people will come out ahead then behind.

[<*)))><]

What?
Being a man with breast cancer, people would want to study that shit.

[<*)))><]

Good god, fishboy. i can't believe you STILL don't get what has been said and explained. Are you just that ignorant or just that arrogant?
I get it but your average college graduate family of four can invest just not the person with cow cancer and has 16 kids all with even rarer forms of cancer.

[The Indigo]

Being a man with breast cancer, people would want to study that shit.
Men can get breast cancer.

[caveBEAR]

:lol:

[zion the lion]

Don't feed him.

I'm curious george, and curiosity kills the cat every time. I just break his skull open and pick apart his brain and eat it to understand what the hell he's saying (like with most people)...in a non cannibalistic way. And so I'll end up going into the creepy old abandoned house every time and yelling "hello!?" like an idiot waiting to be stabbed by the killer, because I want to know whats inside.

Being a man with breast cancer, people would want to study that shit.

No, men get breast cancer a lot, its not something unnatural or rare, men have breasts just like men have arms, so men can get breast cancer.

[<*)))><]

Men can get breast cancer.
Learn something new everyday.

[Echo Park]

I'm canadian. The way they run shit is perfect. Tax dollars pay the necessities -- Healthcare, trashpickup, homeless people.
it's awesome. Capitalism (US) gov't doesn't pay for human necessities simply because they care more for money and profit than its people. owell.

[caveBEAR]

Capitalism (US) gov't doesn't pay for human necessities simply because they care more for money and profit than its people.

Pretty much.

[Plutonio]

Well it is hard to invest if your arm is being chopped of by a shark with a laser on it's head. But for most people it is pretty easy, and in the long most people will come out ahead then behind.
Yes. However, most of this would be settled far easier by an almost-Canadian brand of socialism.

[Sean Rizzo]

If "true" socialism were in place, then everyone would be honest and no one would try to seize power, since that's the theory.

Sadly this doesn't work in the real world. I believe we'll be living under socialism in heaven, though. Since, yknow, it's perfect and all.

[The Indigo]

If "true" socialism were in place, then everyone would be honest and no one would try to seize power, since that's the theory.

Sadly this doesn't work in the real world. I believe we'll be living under socialism in heaven, though. Since, yknow, it's perfect and all.
I've never really understood this assumption.

[<*)))><]

I've never really understood this assumption.
People are greedy and want power but if everyone was caring socialism would be perfect.

[Sean Rizzo]

I've never really understood this assumption.
Simple. People by nature are sometimes dishonest and are never perfect on the whole, even though we all try not to be dishonest and work toward being perfect. This degenerates socialism whether people are ethical or not, which forces the government to impose control. This leads ultimately to tyranny because the people running the government aren't always honest and are never perfect either.

People are greedy and want power but if everyone was caring socialism would be perfect.
Thank you.

[The Indigo]

People are greedy and want power but if everyone was caring socialism would be perfect.

Simple. People by nature are sometimes dishonest and are never perfect on the whole, even though we all try not to be dishonest and work toward being perfect. This degenerates socialism whether people are ethical or not, which forces the government to impose control. This leads ultimately to tyranny because the people running the government aren't always honest and are never perfect either.

Another assumption I don't understand. Greed isn't a genetic trait. Neither is dishonesty. I feel like the whole "people are naturally greedy" thing is just something that's been said so much, people have started to take it as fact (like how people say men think about sex every seven seconds; it's completely unverifiable rhetoric).

[Sean Rizzo]

Another assumption I don't understand. Greed isn't a genetic trait. Neither is dishonesty. I feel like the whole "people are naturally greedy" thing is just something that's been said so much, people have started to take it as fact (like how people say men think about sex every seven seconds; it's completely unverifiable rhetoric).

It's not genetic, but it's inherent in sentient beings. But of course if you're an atheist then you can't think on another plane apart from biology in this respect.

[caveBEAR]

It's not genetic, but it's inherent in sentient beings. But of course if you're an atheist then you can't think on another plane apart from biology in this respect.

This doesn't make any sense. What, you come from a religious (I assume, as with 'atheist' shit) background so you understand something on a higher level than biology?

Where's the 'sarcastically jacking self off to call bullshit' smiley?

[The Indigo]

It's not genetic, but it's inherent in sentient beings. But of course if you're an atheist then you can't think on another plane apart from biology in this respect.
I'm not an atheist, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

[<*)))><]

Another assumption I don't understand. Greed isn't a genetic trait. Neither is dishonesty. I feel like the whole "people are naturally greedy" thing is just something that's been said so much, people have started to take it as fact (like how people say men think about sex every seven seconds; it's completely unverifiable rhetoric).
Id rather get rich then equal to everyone else. Also another flaw is if anyone had the same amount of money inflation would become an issue.

[Sean Rizzo]

This doesn't make any sense. What, you come from a religious (I assume, as with 'atheist' shit) background so you understand something on a higher level than biology?

Where's the 'sarcastically jacking self off to call bullshit' smiley?

I was talking about how atheists' only explanation is biology since they believe there is no other cause for intelligence in sentient beings. My religion has nothing to do with that other than the fact that I recognize we have a spiritual consciousness apart from our genetic makeup.

I'm not an atheist, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

See here. lol.

[caveBEAR]

Id rather get rich then equal to everyone else. Also another flaw is if anyone had the same amount of money inflation would become an issue.

You can't mash together concepts of socialism and concepts of capitalism and assume you have a grasp on either one.

[caveBEAR]

I was talking about how atheists' only explanation is biology since they believe there is no other cause for intelligence in sentient beings. My religion has nothing to do with that other than the fact that I recognize we have a spiritual consciousness apart from our genetic makeup.

No. You 'feel'. Don't confuse the two, and especially don't think you can use your feeling to prove that 'greed is inherent'. That makes no sense on any level, beyond all the fallacies it invokes.

[GuitarR0cker1]

Workers of the world unite y'all.

[The Indigo]

Id rather get rich then equal to everyone else. Also another flaw is if anyone had the same amount of money inflation would become an issue.
That's not an inherent trait though. You were born and raised in a capitalist society (and from your other posts in this thread, it seems you're fairly pampered in it) and that affects your thoughts on it. Had you been raised in a socialist society, you'd have no concept of "getting rich," therefore, you wouldn't care about having more than anyone else.

Also, socialism, in it's purest form, would have no money and, thusly, no inflation.

[The Indigo]

I was talking about how atheists' only explanation is biology since they believe there is no other cause for intelligence in sentient beings. My religion has nothing to do with that other than the fact that I recognize we have a spiritual consciousness apart from our genetic makeup.

And assuming such a spiritual consciousness exists, what makes you so sure that consciousness is inherently greedy?

[Sean Rizzo]

And assuming such a spiritual consciousness exists, what makes you so sure that consciousness is inherently greedy?

Name someone who never has been greedy, not even once (apart from Christ). If you can't find anyone, my point is made.

[The Indigo]

Name someone who never has been greedy, not even once (apart from Christ). If you can't find anyone, my point is made.
You're asking me to provide information that no one could possibly confirm or deny.

[caveBEAR]

Name someone who never has been greedy, not even once. If you can't find anyone, my point is made.

:lol:


Holy shit. This was funny enough on it's own, but then you went back and edited this;

Name someone who never has been greedy, not even once (apart from Christ). If you can't find anyone, my point is made.

HA HA HA! Did you consciously say in your head, 'oh, fuck, I forgot Jesus!'?

Holy shit, this is great.

[Sean Rizzo]

You're asking me to provide information that no one could possibly confirm or deny.

It was rhetorical. But even yourself, you must admit that you have had selfish thoughts from time to time. Why would everyone else be any different from you?

[Sean Rizzo]

:lol:


Holy shit. This was funny enough on it's own, but then you went back and edited this;



HA HA HA! Did you consciously say in your head, 'oh, fuck, I forgot Jesus!'?

Holy shit, this is great.

Mock me all you want. And yeah that was pretty much it, minus the expletive.

[caveBEAR]

Mock me all you want.

Don't worry.

[The Indigo]

It was rhetorical. But even yourself, you must admit that you have had selfish thoughts from time to time. Why would everyone else be any different from you?
I was born into capitalism. What I'm saying is that greed isn't an inherent trait, but a product of our environment. People aren't greedy because it's our nature; we're greedy because in capitalism, greed is the only way to succeed.

[Sean Rizzo]

Don't worry.

So you're a libertarian eh? Yeah, I looked at your profile. :-0

What's your take on all the socialism fun?

[<*)))><]

No. You 'feel'. Don't confuse the two, and especially don't think you can use your feeling to prove that 'greed is inherent'. That makes no sense on any level, beyond all the fallacies it invokes.
What ever you say boss having say :-)

That's not an inherent trait though. You were born and raised in a capitalist society (and from your other posts in this thread, it seems you're fairly pampered in it) and that affects your thoughts on it. Had you been raised in a socialist society, you'd have no concept of "getting rich," therefore, you wouldn't care about having more than anyone else.

Also, socialism, in it's purest form, would have no money and, thusly, no inflation.
If one was created from the start then I guess it could work. But if it was done now it would have to shun it self out from the world. Use propaganda to tell their people that they only exist and keep very strict laws on who can enter and leave. Second why would anyone work hard, they would gain nothing. Relating to the second point I don't think anyone would want to become a doctor or jobs of the nature because of the difficulty and no reward. Just a few points off the top of my head, I'm interested in seeing what you think.

[The Indigo]

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Matthew 19:21

[Sean Rizzo]

I was born into capitalism. What I'm saying is that greed isn't an inherent trait, but a product of our environment. People aren't greedy because it's our nature; we're greedy because in capitalism, greed is the only way to succeed.

Our environment has been creating the sentiments of greed since humans first had to provide for themselves. The hungry envy the fed. So it's inherent regardless of whether the environment fosters it or not. (which I do agree with by the way since I believe that's what God intended for us in this life to experience)

[caveBEAR]

So you're a libertarian eh? Yeah, I looked at your profile. :-0

I wouldn't define myself as libertarian at all now, seeing that I understand what a libertarian is now. I don't care you looked at my profile, it's public for a reason. :-0

What's your take on all the socialism fun?

I feel that almost all philosophical schools of thought on different political setups fall short in their application in the real world, but feel that mimicking the idea of socialism is the most natural and 'equal' form of government that we could sustain on a large level. However, it requires people to think of living in an entirely different setup than they do now, which makes people wet themselves in fear, so I don't think things will ever change 'round these parts.

[caveBEAR]

Our environment has been creating the sentiments of greed since humans first had to provide for themselves. The hungry envy the fed. So it's inherent regardless of whether the environment fosters it or not. (which I do agree with by the way since I believe that's what God intended for us in this life to experience)

The hungry envy the fed because they want food, not because they're greedy. Wanting things like food, water, shelter, human contact, etc., are not greedy, they are natural. Wanting a new 3D TV because you have to see Avatar in all it's glory is greedy.

[Sean Rizzo]

I wouldn't define myself as libertarian at all now, seeing that I understand what a libertarian is now. I don't care you looked at my profile, it's public for a reason. :-0



I feel that almost all philosophical schools of thought on different political setups all fall short in their application in the real world, but feel that mimicking the idea of socialism is the most natural and 'equal' form of government that we could sustain on a large level. However, it requires people to think of living in an entirely different setup than they do now, which makes people wet themselves in fear, so I don't think things will ever change 'round these parts.

Honestly I think true socialism would be good for us all as well. I just don't think it can ever be implemented effectively for a long period of time by humanity.

[Sean Rizzo]

The hungry envy the fed because they want food, not because they're greedy. Wanting things like food, water, shelter, human contact, etc., are not greedy, they are natural. Wanting a new 3D TV because you have to see Avatar in all it's glory is greedy.

My point was we want what others have that we don't have. We just have to stop and think to neutralize it, however.

[The Indigo]

If one was created from the start then I guess it could work. But if it was done now it would have to shun it self out from the world. Use propaganda to tell their people that they only exist and keep very strict laws on who can enter and leave. Second why would anyone work hard, they would gain nothing. Relating to the second point I don't think anyone would want to become a doctor or jobs of the nature because of the difficulty and no reward. Just a few points off the top of my head, I'm interested in seeing what you think.
1. What? I have no clue what you're talking about in that second and third sentence.

2. People would work because if they didn't, society would fall apart. Society falling apart is not in the best interest of people. That's why socialism is a society that cannot be forced on people; it only works if people want it.

3. People would become doctors because society needs doctors. Those who want to take on that profession would take it on. I actually think it'd be better that way, because you wouldn't have a shit ton of doctors only in the business to make money; every doctor would be doing it because they legit wanted to help people.

[Sean Rizzo]

2. People would work because if they didn't, society would fall apart. Society falling apart is not in the best interest of people. That's why socialism is a society that cannot be forced on people; it only works if people want it.

My point exactly. I find it ironic however that all the self-proclaimed socialist governments have turned into tyrannical regimes.

[caveBEAR]

Aaah, and here's the problem.

You say;

Honestly I think true socialism would be good for us all as well.

Then why not?

I just don't think it can ever be implemented effectively for a long period of time by humanity.

That's the problem. You've already doomed it to fail. You're the reason it won't work, not the idea itself. ('You' in the society sense)

[The Indigo]

Aaah, and here's the problem.

You say;



Then why not?



That's the problem. You've already doomed it to fail. You're the reason it won't work, not the idea itself. ('You' in the society sense)
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

[caveBEAR]

My point was we want what others have that we don't have. We just have to stop and think to neutralize it, however.

No. I want food. I want water. I want a roof. I want clothing.


That's it. I don't really desire anything else. I like watching National Geographic Channel, the Discovery-History Channel Row, and Comedy Central. I like the internet. I like marijuana.

I can do without all of the things in the second list. All I need, and therefore, really want are the things in the top row. Everything else we are accustomed to is bullshit to me.

[Sean Rizzo]

Aaah, and here's the problem.

You say;



Then why not?



That's the problem. You've already doomed it to fail. You're the reason it won't work, not the idea itself. ('You' in the society sense)

Everyone would like it to work, but common sense tells me a bunch of dissatisfied selfish people will come along eventually and break the system.

[Sean Rizzo]

No. I want food. I want water. I want a roof. I want clothing.


That's it. I don't really desire anything else. I like watching National Geographic Channel, the Discovery-History Channel Row, and Comedy Central. I like the internet. I like marijuana.

I can do without all of the things in the second list. All I need, and therefore, really want are the things in the top row. Everything else we are accustomed to is bullshit to me.

Then get rid of it right this second and tell me you don't miss it with a straight face. The fact that you can't is called want.

[caveBEAR]

Everyone would like it to work, but common sense tells me a bunch of dissatisfied selfish people will come along eventually and break the system.

That's what you think/feel, but you haven't exactly been a shining beacon for knowledge on the subject, have you?

[samsara]

I wouldn't define myself as libertarian at all now, seeing that I understand what a libertarian is now. I don't care you looked at my profile, it's public for a reason. :-0



I feel that almost all philosophical schools of thought on different political setups fall short in their application in the real world, but feel that mimicking the idea of socialism is the most natural and 'equal' form of government that we could sustain on a large level. However, it requires people to think of living in an entirely different setup than they do now, which makes people wet themselves in fear, so I don't think things will ever change 'round these parts.

my hero