Fuck Arizona

[richter915]

Quite possibly one of the most discriminatory and racist bills to be considered since the Jim Crow era laws. It basically allows AZ authorities to ask individuals who they suspect are illegal immigrants to show them documentation of their citizenship based just on suspicion (ie, brown skin, spanish speaking). It also allows them to go into their homes for random searches.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/20/arizona-immigration-law-s_n_544864.html

editt: The part about searches iis wrong, apologies.

"The law would require the police “when practicable” to detain people they reasonably suspected were in the country without authorization. It would also allow the police to charge immigrants with a state crime for not carrying immigration documents. And it allows residents to sue cities if they believe the law is not being enforced. "

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/22/us/22immig.html

[BornUnderPunches]

The Huffington Post should change it's name

[Floater]

Does it actually allow warrantless searches of homes? I did not read that in the article you posted.

And in all fairness, asking someone to see proof of citizenship does not sound like the end of the world to me. How else do you intend on combatting something which is a multi-billion dollar burden on an already economically strained country? In my opinion, it seems like asking someone for proof of citizenship is a no-brainer. But apparently that's being racist.

[flks511]

Wow, you are an idiot. Solving the problem with illegal immigrants is more important than not appearing racist (asking for documentation isn't racist, by the way).

[The Summer Ends]

Don't come over here illegally and you won't have a problem. It may be racial profiling, but if you're legal then no biggie. At least one state is doing something drastic to address the huge problem we have with illegal immigration.

[richter915]

Does it actually allow warrantless searches of homes? I did not read that in the article you posted.

And in all fairness, asking someone to see proof of citizenship does not sound like the end of the world to me. How else do you intend on combatting something which is a multi-billion dollar burden on an already economically strained country? In my opinion, it seems like asking someone for proof of citizenship is a no-brainer. But apparently that's being racist.
Actually, illegal immigrants make up a significant amount of the workforce in AZ, NM, and TX. Getting rid of all of them would lead to greater economic problems than most people think.

The problem is that the police can pick and choose who to inspect based off of pure suspicion. How is that not racist?

[richter915]

Don't come over here illegally and you won't have a problem. It may be racial profiling, but if you're legal then no biggie. At least one state is doing something drastic to address the huge problem we have with illegal immigration.
as long as you admit that racist policy is now being instituted in the land of the free

[richter915]

Wow, you are an idiot. Solving the problem with illegal immigrants is more important than not appearing racist (asking for documentation isn't racist, by the way).
sick post dude.

[richter915]

The Huffington Post should change it's name
I don't ever really follow it, I just googled the bill and used the first link there.

[Machu505]

My dad's pretty tan, so I told him he ought to avoid driving in Arizona now.

[flks511]

as long as you admit that racist policy is now being instituted in the land of the free
You're so right dude. Appearing "politically correct" is more important than keeping illegal immigrants out of the country.

[richter915]

My dad's pretty tan, so I told him he ought to avoid driving in Arizona now.
good advice. I'm of South Asian descent, I'm not going south of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Smash Adams]

My dad's pretty tan, so I told him he ought to avoid driving in Arizona now.
Considering it gets to be 117 degrees there I'd assume there are a lot of very tan people

[richter915]

You're so right dude. Appearing "politically correct" is more important than keeping illegal immigrants out of the country.
just admit that you're a racist it's not that hard. Why be PC about it? Im not afraid to tell people that it's never justified to judge a man based on his skin color, so why should you be scared when your country supports a racist agenda? We've had no problem enslaving blacks, putting asians/italians/germans in internment camps, stopping women from voting...hell, you're as American as it gets.

[Machu505]

Man, why didn't we think of pulling over all Mexicans earlier? It seems so simple now...

[flks511]

just admit that you're a racist it's not that hard. Why be PC about it? Im not afraid to tell people that it's never justified to judge a man based on his skin color, so why should you be scared when your country supports a racist agenda? We've had no problem enslaving blacks, putting asians/italians/germans in internment camps, stopping women from voting...hell, you're as American as it gets.
Profiling and asking for documentation is not racist.

[richter915]

racial profiling is not racist. How'd I miss that one.

[Yellowcard2006]

OP are you an illegal immigrant?

[FueledByFrodo]

Profiling and asking for documentation is not racist.

You're joking, right? RACIAL profiling is totally not RACIST at all.

[flks511]

racial profiling is not racist. How'd I miss that one.
Your argument is ridiculous. You're more concerned with offending people by making them prove they're a citizen than the actual problem. I'd rather hurt a couple people's feelings than continue to let immigrants live here illegally.

[flks511]

You're joking, right? RACIAL profiling is totally not RACIST at all.
Is it wrong to take aside Middle-Eastern people for search at an airport?

Yeah, it's an extra precaution and could potentially save thousands of lives, but that guy is going to be OFFENDED, oh no.

[FueledByFrodo]

Is it wrong to take aside Middle-Eastern people for search at an airport?

Yeah, it's an extra precaution and could potentially save thousands of lives, but that guy is going to be OFFENDED, oh no.

Yes it is, because you're assuming every Middle-Eastern person is a terrorist, and oh wait, people of other races can be terrorists too? Who knew! Just because someone "looks" illegal doesn't mean they are, and just because someone "looks" like they live here legally doesn't mean they do. Unless you have reasonable cause to believe they're here illegally, you can't say that they are.

[Smash Adams]

Yes it is, because you're assuming every Middle-Eastern person is a terrorist, and oh wait, people of other races can be terrorist too? Who knew! Just because someone "looks" illegal doesn't mean they are, and just because someone "looks" like they live here legally doesn't mean they do. Unless you have reasonable cause to believe they're here illegally, you can't say that they are.
John Walker Lindh who?

[Scrandon]

Actually, illegal immigrants make up a significant amount of the workforce in AZ, NM, and TX. Getting rid of all of them would lead to greater economic problems than most people think.

Thank You! Someone who actually knows this exists, show them the light.

The problem is that the police can pick and choose who to inspect based off of pure suspicion. How is that not racist?

I remember riding the public bus and all of a sudden the driver stopped and a couple cops came on and asked all the Mexicans for ID. It was pretty messed up.

I just don't know how else to do it.

[flks511]

Yes it is, because you're assuming every Middle-Eastern person is a terrorist, and oh wait, people of other races can be terrorist too? Who knew! Just because someone "looks" illegal doesn't mean they are, and just because someone "looks" like they live here legally doesn't mean they do. Unless you have reasonable cause to believe they're here illegally, you can't say that they are.
Hence, airport searches and asking for documentation. Like it's some big inconvenience to prove you live here. If someone asked me for documentation I won't throw a temper tantrum, I promise.

[wall e]

My friend once proposed a river of fire across the US border.

[Rawrr]

I plan on doing this

I'm gonna force my "papers" on every single authority figure I come across (crossing guards, cops trying to eat lunch, teachers, librarians, wall mart greeters)

license to annoy

there should be a line outside Arpaio's house round the clock


But anyways, don't say "Fuck Arizona" when obviously millions in my state are against this

[The Summer Ends]

as long as you admit that racist policy is now being instituted in the land of the free
The people over here illegally don't have the same rights and privileges guaranteed by the Constitution as legal people. That's how it has always worked.

I don't inherently think this bill is great, don't get me wrong. It is racist, and I'm sure there is something better that should be done. However, until that time, small victories in the fight against illegal immigration are all we can take.

[Rawrr]

Also the bill says that
1. Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

Which has pretty much been going on here for a while anyways, it's just now under a stronger legal context. But yes, this will still create profiling and I am obviously against this

[ambulance]

Hence, airport searches and asking for documentation. Like it's some big inconvenience to prove you live here. If someone asked me for documentation I won't throw a temper tantrum, I promise.

Do you know anything about ICE or detention centers? About 'illegals' asking for asylum or being in the country legally, but having their visas expire, what happens next if they attempt to continue to stay in the country? Or are you just spouting out nonsense without knowing anything about the status of illegals in this country? Because that's what it seems like.

[Floater]

Actually, illegal immigrants make up a significant amount of the workforce in AZ, NM, and TX. Getting rid of all of them would lead to greater economic problems than most people think.

The problem is that the police can pick and choose who to inspect based off of pure suspicion. How is that not racist?

Unemployment rates are currently through the roof. For every illegal immigrant you remove you create a job opening, but where illegal immigrants really hurt the economy is through taxes, in that they don't pay any. In 2001 the cost of harboring illegal aliens in prison (getting back to my point on drug running and the increase in cartel activity) was in the billions. It's 9 years later and getting worse.

As for the profiling issue, one has to view it logically. The vast, vast majority of illegal aliens in Arizona are of Mexican descent. Common sense dictates that ethnicity would be a key factor in determining at least a portion of reasonable suspicion. I'm not proposing a mass deportation of people who are Mexican, but if someone lives in a tenant apartment, works as a day laborer, has no known history in the area and is of Mexican descent, would that not be reason enough to simply ask the guy where he's from?

Though in regards to the Jim Crowe laws, I'd suggest instead making a comparrison between the Arizona legislation and the Alien and Sedition Acts of the late 18th century. It's more conducive to the point you're trying to make, though I still find Arizona's doing both reasonable and responsible.

[flks511]

Do you know anything about ICE or detention centers? About 'illegals' asking for asylum or being in the country legally, but having their visas expire, what happens next if they attempt to continue to stay in the country? Or are you just spouting out nonsense without knowing anything about the status of illegals in this country? Because that's what it seems like.
In those cases, they'd still be considered "illegal," correct?

[ambulance]

In those cases, they'd still be considered "illegal," correct?

Okay so yeah, you are just spouting nonsense because you are ignorant. Sure they are 'illegal' in the most technical sense, but they are here applying for asylum. They 'escaped' their country for reasons of persecution, torture, etc etc. Would you rather them stay in the country they are being persecuted in, and wait for their application for asylum to go through (being mistreated, tortured, possibly killed)? There are plenty of accounts of people being in this country having applications open for asylum or refugee and since they are 'technically' illegal they are put in detention centers (where you aren't granted immigration hearings etc and then merely deported). Would you consider that 'fair?' Seriously, do some fucking homework. Look into ICE and detention centers. For fucks sake, the executive director of ICE said “If you don’t have enough evidence to charge someone criminally but you think he’s illegal, we [ICE] can make him disappear.” (http://www.amnestyusa.org/uploads/JailedWithoutJustice.pdf) I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like America to me.

[flks511]

Okay so yeah, you are just spouting nonsense because you are ignorant. Sure they are 'illegal' in the most technical sense, but they are here applying for asylum. They 'escaped' their country for reasons of persecution, torture, etc etc. Would you rather them stay in the country they are being persecuted in, and wait for their application for asylum to go through (being mistreated, tortured, possibly killed)? There are plenty of accounts of people being in this country having applications open for asylum or refugee and since they are 'technically' illegal they are put in detention centers (where you aren't granted immigration hearings etc and then merely deported). Would you consider that 'fair?' Seriously, do some fucking homework. Look into ICE and detention centers. For fucks sake, the executive director of ICE said “If you don’t have enough evidence to charge someone criminally but you think he’s illegal, we [ICE] can make him disappear.” (http://www.amnestyusa.org/uploads/JailedWithoutJustice.pdf) I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like America to me.
You misunderstood me. Asking for documentation doesn't change the immigration law at all, it just enforces it more. This bill has nothing to do with immigrants applying for asylum, because if they are caught across the border (without this bill passing) the same thing would have happened.

[J.C.]

The people over here illegally don't have the same rights and privileges guaranteed by the Constitution as legal people. That's how it has always worked.

The issue is with the people if effects who are here legally and are made to prove they live in this country just on the basis of how they look. It amazes me that the right can somehow see fascism in universal healthcare, but not in that.

I don't inherently think this bill is great, don't get me wrong. It is racist, and I'm sure there is something better that should be done. However, until that time, small victories in the fight against illegal immigration are all we can take.

That must be the 'more freedom, less government' I hear the tea partiers talking about. Apparently civil liberties are worth sacrificing as long as they're not your own.

Kudos for "it's racist, but we'll take it". Those are certainly principles we can be proud of as Americans when it comes to our laws.

[Impress]

Thank You! Someone who actually knows this exists, show them the light.



So you're saying that by removing illegal immigrants the economy of such states would collapse because of the job loss?


Wouldn't it just create jobs for Legal immigrants/Citizens who might be unemployed?

[richter915]

OP are you an illegal immigrant?
no (but I might look it which is why i need to carry around citizenship papers with me at all times if im in AZ)

[richter915]

Your argument is ridiculous. You're more concerned with offending people by making them prove they're a citizen than the actual problem. I'd rather hurt a couple people's feelings than continue to let immigrants live here illegally.
It's an injustice. The assumption is now that if you look the part, you are breaking the law and therefore must be searched and screened. It's simply un-American. I'm opposed to illegal immigration because it does damage the economy and certain American citizens have been hurt significantly by it...but I do not think this is the right way to go about it.

[Floater]

So you're saying that by removing illegal immigrants the economy of such states would collapse because of the job loss?


Wouldn't it just create jobs for Legal immigrants/Citizens who might be unemployed?

^This.

[richter915]

I plan on doing this



But anyways, don't say "Fuck Arizona" when obviously millions in my state are against this
haha I'm sorry, when I heard about the bill I was just irate. Obviously you have people even up here in NY who are all for this sort of legislation.

[.invisible ink.]

Quite possibly one of the most discriminatory and racist bills to be considered since the Jim Crow era laws. It basically allows AZ authorities to ask individuals who they suspect are illegal immigrants to show them documentation of their citizenship based just on suspicion (ie, brown skin, spanish speaking).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/20/arizona-immigration-law-s_n_544864.html



I have Hispanic friends here in NC who have told me that they have been stopped and have been asked for proof of documentation for no reason other than the fact that they look Hispanic and live in a predominantly Hispanic part of town. This isn't just happening in Arizona, it happens everywhere. Arizona is just the first to openly admit it and put it on the books.

Racial profiling is alive and well. Welcome to America.

[flks511]

It's an injustice. The assumption is now that if you look the part, you are breaking the law and therefore must be searched and screened. It's simply un-American. I'm opposed to illegal immigration because it does damage the economy and certain American citizens have been hurt significantly by it...but I do not think this is the right way to go about it.
Wrong again. Having to prove your citizenship is not an injustice. It's not like they're throwing you in jail based on your appearance.

This bill should only be a problem for illegal immigrants. If you're legal, you shouldn't even have to worry about it.

[richter915]

The people over here illegally don't have the same rights and privileges guaranteed by the Constitution as legal people. That's how it has always worked.

I don't inherently think this bill is great, don't get me wrong. It is racist, and I'm sure there is something better that should be done. However, until that time, small victories in the fight against illegal immigration are all we can take.
Right I understand that but legislation of this nature, in my eyes, takes a step back and truly lessens illegal immigrants as being less than human because they are not Americans on paper. It's now extending beyond illegal immigrants and claiming that your race and heritage puts you at suspicion for criminal activity.

[Yellowcard2006]

no (but I might look it which is why i need to carry around citizenship papers with me at all times if im in AZ)
Yeah from what I've heard this kinda sucks. Though everyone should carry a driver's license (or state license) at all times as a responsible adult.

[ambulance]

You misunderstood me. Asking for documentation doesn't change the immigration law at all, it just enforces it more. This bill has nothing to do with immigrants applying for asylum, because if they are caught across the border (without this bill passing) the same thing would have happened.

No, I understood you. It has more implications than you think. And it has everything to do with those seeking asylum. Did you even read what I said? The law makes it so that police officers have the right to ask for documentation (now practically without suspicion). There is also a program in Atlanta (and other places I believe) that does a similar thing called 287(g) (look it up) which allows police officers to act under ICE provisions. So now, those that are illegal, possibly seeking asylum or otherwise in this country legally to begin with, but have already begun living a normal life in America (has a job, going to school, etc) if they are involved in a criminal activity, lets say, they are mugged, get in a car wreck, etc. Any instance where police would be involved, and they are victims of a crime, they will be afraid to say anything about it. Since police use to not have this power, illegals could go to the police for protection. Now, not so much. They now have even more reason to FEAR the POLICE. Does that sound like a good thing to you? People like you and me, just because they are illegal, should FEAR those that are in place to PROTECT them. I could go on and on about this subject, but it seems like you just think all illegals in this country should be deported. Which I don't even understand. Sure there are illegal immigrants that exploit the system, but there are also illegal immigrants that have all intentions of creating a legitimate life here.

Like I said though, go read up about detention centers and ICE. Also, could you just clarify your position on illegal immigrants before I continue with this conversation.

[.invisible ink.]

Wrong again. Having to prove your citizenship is not an injustice. It's not like they're throwing you in jail based on your appearance.

This bill should only be a problem for illegal immigrants. If you're legal, you shouldn't even have to worry about it.

so it wouldn't bother you if you were pulled over and asked to prove your citizenship based on your looks alone? Give me a break. No one should be hassled needlessly. We don't need to live in a police state.

[apsterling]

Actually, illegal immigrants make up a significant amount of the workforce in AZ, NM, and TX. Getting rid of all of them would lead to greater economic problems than most people think.

Wrong. Because the people who are here legally and unemployed wouldn't instantly jump up and start taking these jobs as soon as they can?

[J.C.]

Wrong again. Having to prove your citizenship is not an injustice. It's not like they're throwing you in jail based on your appearance.

This bill should only be a problem for illegal immigrants. If you're legal, you shouldn't even have to worry about it.

So the government should be able to search your property whenever they wish? I mean, as long as you're not doing anything illegal, you don't have anything to worry about.

[J.C.]

Wrong. Because the people who are here legally and unemployed wouldn't instantly jump up and start taking these jobs as soon as they can?

Yeah, I imagine we'd see a large employment spike in jobs involving work in the fields!

[richter915]

Wrong again. Having to prove your citizenship is not an injustice. It's not like they're throwing you in jail based on your appearance.

This bill should only be a problem for illegal immigrants. If you're legal, you shouldn't even have to worry about it.
I'm not saying that having to prove citizenship is an injustice...I'm saying that it's an injustice to people who are suspected of illegal immigration based off of their looks...it's an injustice to them, not based off of American laws but from a human rights perspective. I think that's where we really disagree because I see it as more than just offensive or a shot to the ego.

I think the biggest argument against my position is that I cannot provide a reasonable alternative. This legislation is just "not right" but if you analyze the world from a utilitarian POV, this simplifies the jobs of the police and will likely be more effective at solving illegal immigration than many other current policies.

[richter915]

I have Hispanic friends here in NC who have told me that they have been stopped and have been asked for proof of documentation for no reason other than the fact that they look Hispanic and live in a predominantly Hispanic part of town. This isn't just happening in Arizona, it happens everywhere. Arizona is just the first to openly admit it and put it on the books.

Racial profiling is alive and well. Welcome to America.
right it's truly absurd but it's almost human nature to be suspicious of those who look different. Trust me, I know all too well about profiling being a Muslim-American in post 9-11 NY (though, Muslims outside of NY have had it harder than we have)

[apsterling]

Yeah, I imagine we'd see a large employment spike in jobs involving work in the fields!

I'd imagine that people struggling to feed their families might happen to take jobs they might not have before, if it means a better life. Sort of like the illegal immigrants they're replacing. I don't see what the issue is with this law, aside from a slight bit of civil liberties, but if you carry US identification like most legal Americans do in the form of a passport or driver's license, then there's no problem. It's not like they're proposing anything other than saying "We can now legally stop you at a traffic light because you look suspicious like we would have anyway before."

[flks511]

I'm not saying that having to prove citizenship is an injustice...I'm saying that it's an injustice to people who are suspected of illegal immigration based off of their looks...it's an injustice to them, not based off of American laws but from a human rights perspective. I think that's where we really disagree because I see it as more than just offensive or a shot to the ego.

I think the biggest argument against my position is that I cannot provide a reasonable alternative. This legislation is just "not right" but if you analyze the world from a utilitarian POV, this simplifies the jobs of the police and will likely be more effective at solving illegal immigration than many other current policies.
You're making too much out of nothing. If I were Hispanic and asked to prove my citizenship, I would. What exactly is the injustice there?

[ambulance]

I'm not saying that having to prove citizenship is an injustice...I'm saying that it's an injustice to people who are suspected of illegal immigration based off of their looks...it's an injustice to them, not based off of American laws but from a human rights perspective. I think that's where we really disagree because I see it as more than just offensive or a shot to the ego.

I think the biggest argument against my position is that I cannot provide a reasonable alternative. This legislation is just "not right" but if you analyze the world from a utilitarian POV, this simplifies the jobs of the police and will likely be more effective at solving illegal immigration than many other current policies.

Would you want a system that removes illegals, or would rather have something that promotes illegals into becoming legitimate citizens? Just curious.

[Floater]

I'd imagine that people struggling to feed their families might happen to take jobs they might not have before, if it means a better life. Sort of like the illegal immigrants they're replacing. I don't see what the issue is with this law, aside from a slight bit of civil liberties, but if you carry US identification like most legal Americans do in the form of a passport or driver's license, then there's no problem. It's not like they're proposing anything other than saying "We can now legally stop you at a traffic light because you look suspicious like we would have anyway before."

^Also this.

[richter915]

Wrong. Because the people who are here legally and unemployed wouldn't instantly jump up and start taking these jobs as soon as they can?
It's kind of funny you mention that because it turns out that the economy in AZ has become so bad with the businesses who hire cheap, illegal labor failing...that now the illegal immigrants don't even want to stay in AZ because they themselves can't get hired. So to answer your question, no, the unemployed in AZ can't really take up those jobs because many of the American run businesses there aren't even sustaining.

[The Summer Ends]

The issue is with the people if effects who are here legally and are made to prove they live in this country just on the basis of how they look. It amazes me that the right can somehow see fascism in universal healthcare, but not in that.



That must be the 'more freedom, less government' I hear the tea partiers talking about. Apparently civil liberties are worth sacrificing as long as they're not your own.

Kudos for "it's racist, but we'll take it". Those are certainly principles we can be proud of as Americans when it comes to our laws.
I don't see fascism is any of that, I see a country taking drastic measures to fix obvious problems it has. If people disagree with healthcare or the immigration bill, do something about it. I take an apathetic approach to politics since I know my voice means jack-shit (I do vote though), and I try to see where each side is coming from and rationalize their thoughts so I can accept it.

As for the tea partiers comment, get the fuck out of here. Those people are idiots, don't lump me in with them. The whole Patriot Act thing of giving up some liberties for security is bullshit too. I don't want the government in my shit watching me or whatever.

My comment about the "oh well racism lol" was meant to be taken as "desperate times call for desperate measures" instead of your interpretation, but I can see how it was misread.
Right I understand that but legislation of this nature, in my eyes, takes a step back and truly lessens illegal immigrants as being less than human because they are not Americans on paper. It's now extending beyond illegal immigrants and claiming that your race and heritage puts you at suspicion for criminal activity.
I don't disagree. It is plain wrong and offensive on a moral and personal level. However, on a legal level, what other choice does the state have if they're trying to fix the problem?

Edit:
Would you want a system that removes illegals, or would rather have something that promotes illegals into becoming legitimate citizens? Just curious.
I want a system that has a timeframe for citizenship. If you're here illegally, get told to start your application or whatever. If you haven't started your paperwork within so-and-so days, or your paperwork has remained stagnant for so-and-so days, then you get sent back. I don't know how well this would work though since I've done shit for research on the subject.

[apsterling]

It's kind of funny you mention that because it turns out that the economy in AZ has become so bad with the businesses who hire cheap, illegal labor failing...that now the illegal immigrants don't even want to stay in AZ because they themselves can't get hired. So to answer your question, no, the unemployed in AZ can't really take up those jobs because many of the American run businesses there aren't even sustaining.

Because of illegal immigration and labor. Funny, isn't it? This is the precise reason that the state is now more concerned than ever about solving these issues, because the economy is now suffering more than ever from them.

[ambulance]

You're making too much out of nothing. If I were Hispanic and asked to prove my citizenship, I would. What exactly is the injustice there?

You are thinking to simplistic and egotistical. I have a friend who's job allots him being late 7 times, doesn't matter if he is 1 minute late, it still counts as a tardy. If he goes over these he is punished a week off without pay. Now, lets say you are Hispanic, and a cop pulled you over on your way to work. You were doing NOTHING wrong, they just wanted to see if you were a legal citizen, and thus they make you late. That can have dire consequences, especially if you are the sole income provider for your family. Welp, then you talk to your legal hispanic friends, who also seem to be being hassled for no reason but to provide documentation. Would you not grow resentment towards the police? Again, stop thinking so simplistically.

[richter915]

Would you want a system that removes illegals, or would rather have something that promotes illegals into becoming legitimate citizens? Just curious.
I would support speeding up the citizenship process because I do think these people want to be in the States looking for a better life and the majority of us are here because we had an ancestor who came for the same reason. As was pointed out before, there's a large toll on our economy with illegal immigration so by legalizing them, we allow them to help support the country they're now a part of (aka, paying taxes). Right now, though, that would hurt the States because of increases in social programs as well as the poor economy meaning that each new citizen costs the country more money.

[richter915]

You're making too much out of nothing. If I were Hispanic and asked to prove my citizenship, I would. What exactly is the injustice there?
right we're going to have to disagree because I obviously don't think this is "nothing".

[flks511]

You are thinking to simplistic and egotistical. I have a friend who's job allots him being late 7 times, doesn't matter if he is 1 minute late, it still counts as a tardy. If he goes over these he is punished a week off without pay. Now, lets say you are Hispanic, and a cop pulled you over on your way to work. You were doing NOTHING wrong, they just wanted to see if you were a legal citizen, and thus they make you late. That can have dire consequences, especially if you are the sole income provider for your family. Welp, then you talk to your legal hispanic friends, who also seem to be being hassled for no reason but to provide documentation. Would you not grow resentment towards the police? Again, stop thinking so simplistically.
That is such a trivial and specific issue to have. I find it funny that you tell me to stop thinking so simplistically when your argument is over a Hispanic person being late to work, and mine is about helping rid the state of illegal immigrants.

[ambulance]

I would support speeding up the citizenship process because I do think these people want to be in the States looking for a better life and the majority of us are here because we had an ancestor who came for the same reason. As was pointed out before, there's a large toll on our economy with illegal immigration so by legalizing them, we allow them to help support the country they're now a part of (aka, paying taxes). Right now, though, that would hurt the States because of increases in social programs as well as the poor economy meaning that each new citizen costs the country more money.

Also the fact that many illegals work under the table, thus not receiving benefits (health care, minimum wage). If we granted them citizenship or even replaced them with legal citizens, it would still have a large effect on businesses and the economy. Any proposal we make is going to effect the economy negatively somehow IMO. We just have to allow the economy to stabilize, which could mean continued economic problems and, depending on which direction we go, greater benefits in the end.

[J.C.]

I'd imagine that people struggling to feed their families might happen to take jobs they might not have before, if it means a better life.

There is no finite number of jobs needing to be filled. It fluctuates based on what an employer can afford. They can't fire a bunch of illegal workers here who they pay peanuts to and then afford to pay law-abiding wages to an equal number of legal workers. They'd have to cut back somewhere else to afford doing so, which would probably result in a loss of jobs in another area.

As has been pointed out, the amount of production for such a cheap cost is actually aiding your economy. Lessening the amount of production and increasing the cost for it is automatically detrimental.

Sort of like the illegal immigrants they're replacing. I don't see what the issue is with this law, aside from a slight bit of civil liberties, but if you carry US identification like most legal Americans do in the form of a passport or driver's license, then there's no problem.

The fact you call yourself a libertarian is comical. This is literally the antithesis of libertarian principle. It's undefined government intrusion and you're reduced to defending it by saying "as long as you're not doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about!". That is a fascist defense.

[richter915]

Unemployment rates are currently through the roof. For every illegal immigrant you remove you create a job opening, but where illegal immigrants really hurt the economy is through taxes, in that they don't pay any. In 2001 the cost of harboring illegal aliens in prison (getting back to my point on drug running and the increase in cartel activity) was in the billions. It's 9 years later and getting worse.

As for the profiling issue, one has to view it logically. The vast, vast majority of illegal aliens in Arizona are of Mexican descent. Common sense dictates that ethnicity would be a key factor in determining at least a portion of reasonable suspicion. I'm not proposing a mass deportation of people who are Mexican, but if someone lives in a tenant apartment, works as a day laborer, has no known history in the area and is of Mexican descent, would that not be reason enough to simply ask the guy where he's from?

Though in regards to the Jim Crowe laws, I'd suggest instead making a comparrison between the Arizona legislation and the Alien and Sedition Acts of the late 18th century. It's more conducive to the point you're trying to make, though I still find Arizona's doing both reasonable and responsible.

in regards to the unemployment, like i've said before, the assumption that an immigrant not working means a citizen will take it is no longer the case. the economy has sunk so low that many businesses cannot "afford" to hire workers who are on the books. Yes, what those businesses are doing is illegal but it's also fiscally wise for them with the tanking economy. It just costs companies more to have American workers and that's not the fault of the immigrant worker who takes that job. With taxes, again like i've said, fill jobs with people who will ensure that immigrants become legalized ASAP so that they can pay those taxes. It's not always that easy as me and my family came here as legal residents, paid taxes every year, but were not full citizens (ie, couldn't vote) until 2007 (we came here in 1987)...so at the very least work on pushing legal residency. I won't even go into the argument on prison and drugs because US foreign policy screws us vigorously and to blame illegals is not even looking at the big picture.

I see the logic in profiling and have noted it's efficiency...but this is what makes humans different from animals. We have brains and conscious thoughts.

The Alien and Sedition acts had more to do with war time mania, but you're right, it's still rooted in prejudice against foreignors.

[Floater]

You are thinking to simplistic and egotistical. I have a friend who's job allots him being late 7 times, doesn't matter if he is 1 minute late, it still counts as a tardy. If he goes over these he is punished a week off without pay. Now, lets say you are Hispanic, and a cop pulled you over on your way to work. You were doing NOTHING wrong, they just wanted to see if you were a legal
citizen, and thus they make you late. That can have dire consequences, especially if you are the sole income provider for your family. Welp, then you talk to your legal hispanic friends, who also seem to be being hassled for no reason but to provide documentation. Would you not grow resentment towards the police? Again, stop thinking so simplistically.

I'm willing to wager it takes less than one minute to produce a driver's license. Maybe two minutes for the police to pull someone over and ask for identification, so the whole "totally inconvenient" scenario you described would take up approximately three minutes. If this employee is so worried about being late to work, why would he set off for work when an extra three minutes will make him let?

The point is, though it may not be entirely ethically just, it is reasonable, and the minor inconvenience that showing one's ID entails is much less signifigant than the ailing economy that the illegal immigrants are draining.

And it's not even like police are just going to randomly stop every Mexican man in sight just for the lulz. There has to be reasonable suspicion and according to the bill itself, witness testimony. Besides, if I were a legal immigrant in Mexico and they were having trouble with white Americans coming into their country illegally, I would gladly produce an ID if asked, as I would entirely understand the concern of the Mexican government.

[apsterling]

There is no finite number of jobs needing to be filled. It fluctuates based on what an employer can afford. They can't fire a bunch of illegal workers here who they pay peanuts to and then afford to pay law-abiding wages to an equal number of legal workers. They'd have to cut back somewhere else to afford doing so, which would probably result in a loss of jobs in another area.

As has been pointed out, the amount of production for such a cheap cost is actually aiding your economy. Lessening the amount of production and increasing the cost for it is automatically detrimental.



The fact you call yourself a libertarian is comical. This is literally the antithesis of libertarian principle. It's undefined government intrusion and you're reduced to defending it by saying "as long as you're not doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about!". That is a fascist defense.

I'm stating that they're not exactly changing their stance. I'm not in defense of the policies themselves, but I'm in defense of the people you're attacking, because your attacks are a little shallow and a little late. They'e been doing it for years, it's just now that they're making it truly legal.

[ambulance]

That is such a trivial and specific issue to have. I find it funny that you tell me to stop thinking so simplistically when your argument is over a Hispanic person being late to work, and mine is about helping rid the state of illegal immigrants.

I guess you are just going to gloss over my other posts?

Trivial? How is losing a weeks pay 'trivial?' And this is only one example of a MULTITUDE OF POSSIBILITIES that could create antipathy towards police. You are acting as if there is no injustice in this when there is. Just because you would hand over your documentation and not have a problem with it, doesn't mean that other people will have a different experience than you. You think it is okay if there is no reasonable suspicion except being hispanic? You find nothing wrong with racial profiling?

[ActionActionFan]

Actually, illegal immigrants make up a significant amount of the workforce in AZ, NM, and TX. Getting rid of all of them would lead to greater economic problems than most people think.

The problem is that the police can pick and choose who to inspect based off of pure suspicion. How is that not racist?

It's not like the country has 10% unemployment for legal residents or anything to fill the workforce.

[richter915]

And it's not even like police are just going to randomly stop every Mexican man in sight just for the lulz. There has to be reasonable suspicion and according to the bill itself, witness testimony. Besides, if I were a legal immigrant in Mexico and they were having trouble with white Americans coming into their country illegally, I would gladly produce an ID if asked, as I would entirely understand the concern of the Mexican government.

And I would argue that the Mexican government is wrong for doing that. To accuse you of a crime based off of your skin and tongue can never be justified regardless of the law of the land. And your point about "reasonable suspicion" is the main point of contention here...people, such as myself, are saying that when it comes down the cop having to provide evidence for "reasonable suspicion"...his word is enough because suspicion now includes "he's of Mexican descent and in a community of known illegal immigrants".

[richter915]

It's not like the country has 10% unemployment for legal residents or anything to fill the workforce.
I'll repeat myself until I'm dead. Follow my logic here...why does a business employ an immigrant over a citizen...afterall, if citizens were preferred, unemployment should not be an issue...the answer: immigrants are cheaper but just as productive...so it costs the company more to hire a citizen. Now, this company is in a failing economy, they're losing money to the point where they can't even afford immigrant labor (as evidenced by immigrants no longer wanting to stay in southern states due to the piss poor economy there)...so now you're saying that by ridding the country of immigrants, these companies can now manage to afford American workers without losing money themselves (the antithesis of any business motto btw). It's not as clear cut as it seems.

[paper halo]

I don't see fascism is any of that, I see a country taking drastic measures to fix obvious problems it has.

This is exactly how fascism creeps in to a society, sacrificing liberty to attain control.

The whole Patriot Act thing of giving up some liberties for security is bullshit too. I don't want the government in my shit watching me or whatever.

Yet you're ok with other people losing their liberties?

[ambulance]

I'm willing to wager it takes less than one minute to produce a driver's license. Maybe two minutes for the police to pull someone over and ask for identification, so the whole "totally inconvenient" scenario you described would take up approximately three minutes. If this employee is so worried about being late to work, why would he set off for work when an extra three minutes will make him let?

The point is, though it may not be entirely ethically just, it is reasonable, and the minor inconvenience that showing one's ID entails is much less signifigant than the ailing economy that the illegal immigrants are draining.

And it's not even like police are just going to randomly stop every Mexican man in sight just for the lulz. There has to be reasonable suspicion and according to the bill itself, witness testimony. Besides, if I were a legal immigrant in Mexico and they were having trouble with white Americans coming into their country illegally, I would gladly produce an ID if asked, as I would entirely understand the concern of the Mexican government.

Have you ever been pulled over? LOL. I wish it only took 3 minutes.

And you can make up all kind of scenarios, like 'leave earlier.' And I can come right back with some 'situation' in which he 'cant leave earlier.' I'm not going to argue in hypotheticals. I was only providing an example to explain how it COULD have an effect on someone. I don't see how you can continually say that this bill won't create any inconvenience or antipathy from what could end up being racial profiling. I'm not saying that this bill is already doing it because we haven't seen how it works, merely I'm concerned with the implications and that it does provide that window for racial profiling, which I think, is a step in the wrong direction towards dealing with immigration.

[The Summer Ends]

Yet you're ok with other people losing their liberties?
I'm not okay with it, I'm just accepting it since nothing else is being done.

[J.C.]

I don't see fascism is any of that, I see a country taking drastic measures to fix obvious problems it has.

You yourself said the law was racist and then you defended it as a necessary step. That's a clear avocation of racism. Saying the government has the right to racially profile and giving them an undefined ability to enforce that law is abhorrently fascist.

The whole Patriot Act thing of giving up some liberties for security is bullshit too. I don't want the government in my shit watching me or whatever.

You just got through condoning a measure that explicitly forfeits liberties in the name of security. :|

My comment about the "oh well racism lol" was meant to be taken as "desperate times call for desperate measures" instead of your interpretation, but I can see how it was misread.

1. These aren't "desperate times".

2. We don't sacrifice our values when we get tasted by something. If you sacrifice your principles once you get tested, then they weren't really principles. They were hobbies.

[The Summer Ends]

You yourself said the law was racist and then you defended it as a necessary step. That's a clear avocation of racism. Saying the government has the right to racially profile and giving them an undefined ability to enforce that law is abhorrently fascist.



You just got through condoning a measure that explicitly forfeits liberties in the name of security. :|



1. These aren't "desperate times".

2. We don't sacrifice our values when we get tasted by something. If you sacrifice your principles once you get tested, then they weren't really principles. They were hobbies.
You take this a lot more seriously than me, and I really don't want to keep arguing over something I don't care about so I'll just dip out here. I don't like politics.

[Skadrist]

There is no finite number of jobs needing to be filled. It fluctuates based on what an employer can afford. They can't fire a bunch of illegal workers here who they pay peanuts to and then afford to pay law-abiding wages to an equal number of legal workers. They'd have to cut back somewhere else to afford doing so, which would probably result in a loss of jobs in another area.

As has been pointed out, the amount of production for such a cheap cost is actually aiding your economy. Lessening the amount of production and increasing the cost for it is automatically detrimental.



The fact you call yourself a libertarian is comical. This is literally the antithesis of libertarian principle. It's undefined government intrusion and you're reduced to defending it by saying "as long as you're not doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about!". That is a fascist defense.


Well said; I work in a warehouse and even though my workplace is unionized, with full benefits at a year the place still has a turnover rate of about 60%. I can't imagine too many unemployed people working from sun up to sun down in a field for peanuts when a lot of people can't last 4 to 5 hours at my job.

I highly recommend reading this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Working-Shadows-Year-Doing-Americans/dp/1568584083/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272225150&sr=8-1

[Floater]

Have you ever been pulled over? LOL. I wish it only took 3 minutes.

And you can make up all kind of scenarios, like 'leave earlier.' And I can come right back with some 'situation' in which he 'cant leave earlier.' I'm not going to argue in hypotheticals. I was only providing an example to explain how it COULD have an effect on someone. I don't see how you can continually say that this bill won't create any inconvenience or antipathy from what could end up being racial profiling. I'm not saying that this bill is already doing it because we haven't seen how it works, merely I'm concerned with the implications and that it does provide that window for racial profiling, which I think, is a step in the wrong direction towards dealing with immigration.

So you're not willing to discuss hypotheticals, but you are willing to use them as proof to back up your assertions?

Right.

I acknowledge that this bill might give legal Mexican citizens a minor inconvenience (pulling out an ID really isn't that hard) but it pales in comparrison to the absolute destruction illegal immigration is doing to the economy. If we don't do ANYTHING about illegal immigration and continue to allow unneccesary drains on our finances, soon there will not be an America for anyone to enjoy, be they legal citizens or not.

[J.C.]

I'm not in defense of the policies themselves

I don't know who it is you normally argue with, but I can actually recall things you said five minutes earlier:

I don't see what the issue is with this law, aside from a slight bit of civil liberties, but if you carry US identification like most legal Americans do in the form of a passport or driver's license, then there's no problem.

You defended the policy and the forfeiting of civil liberties inherent in it.

[DevinDomino]

I can't take any of this serious with OP's avatar!

hahaha

[thatwasamoment]

If Arizona was serious about illegal immigration, they would heavily fine any employer who hires illegals. Anywho, regardless of how you feel about this bill, it will get thrown out when the first American citizen gets detained on a suspicion of being illegal.

[Love As Arson]

Isn't it interesting how those afraid of a return to Naziism want a particular group to carry papers to identify themselves?

[richter915]

Isn't it interesting how those afraid of a return to Naziism want a particular group to carry papers to identify themselves?
I was avoiding bringing that up because it'll lead to tons of accusations of slippery slope thinking...but that was the first thought that went through my mind. If people agree with this, will they be opposed to a bill that requires all illegal immigrants to have an issued document identifying themselves as such?

[apsterling]

I was avoiding bringing that up because it'll lead to tons of accusations of slippery slope thinking...but that was the first thought that went through my mind. If people agree with this, will they be opposed to a bill that requires all illegal immigrants to have an issued document identifying themselves as such?

It's as simple as a driver's license, though. You can't get a license in this state without proving citizenship. It's not like everyone doesn't already carry this proof with them.

[flks511]

I guess you are just going to gloss over my other posts?

Trivial? How is losing a weeks pay 'trivial?' 1. And this is only one example of a MULTITUDE OF POSSIBILITIES that could create antipathy towards police. You are acting as if there is no injustice in this when there is. Just because you would hand over your documentation and not have a problem with it, doesn't mean that other people will have a different experience than you. 2. You think it is okay if there is no reasonable suspicion except being hispanic? You find nothing wrong with racial profiling?
1. Who cares what the view of the police is as long as they get the job done?
2. Actually, yes. I'm not racist against Hispanics, but they are more likely to be illegal, so the bill makes sense.

[Love As Arson]

It's as simple as a driver's license, though. You can't get a license in this state without proving citizenship. It's not like everyone doesn't already carry this proof with them.
I do not think I should have to show authorities anything because they may believe I am not a resident of this country. That is a misuse of their power, which conservatives typically rail against. We're left to wonder what other dimension is left to explain their silence on this issue and the only thing I can come up with is racism. They want government out of their lives, but want it to keep tabs on the other, in order to make sure they don't cross some arbitrary line.

[Love As Arson]

1. Who cares what the view of the police is as long as they get the job done?
2. Actually, yes. I'm not racist against Hispanics, but they are more likely to be illegal, so the bill makes sense.

White males are more likely to be serial killers. Someone should pass a law requiring them to carry around their psychiatric profiles.

[flks511]

White males are more likely to be serial killers. Someone should pass a law requiring them to carry around their psychiatric profiles.
Good one.

[Love As Arson]

Good one.
I try.

[Floater]

I do not think I should have to show authorities anything because they may believe I am not a resident of this country. That is a misuse of their power, which conservatives typically rail against. We're left to wonder what other dimension is left to explain their silence on this issue and the only thing I can come up with is racism. They want government out of their lives, but want it to keep tabs on the other, in order to make sure they don't cross some arbitrary line.

The only explanation you can come up with is racism, huh? Why do I find that so typical?

So I guess everyone who brought up unemployment, financial security, drug cartels, and a burdened system which cannot support the surplus of aliens was just kidding and what they really meant was, "Lol, i h8 mexicans." Good call there, Malcom.

[caveBEAR]

Profiling and asking for documentation is not racist.

:lol: Wow.

Your argument is ridiculous. You're more concerned with offending people by making them prove they're a citizen than the actual problem. I'd rather hurt a couple people's feelings than continue to let immigrants live here illegally.

What exactly are your grievances with illegals here? What (exact) reasoning do you have for sending them back?

Is it wrong to take aside Middle-Eastern people for search at an airport?

Yeah, it's an extra precaution and could potentially save thousands of lives, but that guy is going to be OFFENDED, oh no.

It's actually been proven that it's counter-productive to do this very thing, and it's proven by the 'shoe bomber' and 'underpants bomber', neither 'Middle-Eastern' in appearance.


Which leads us to, what do you propose we do with illegal immigrants from countries like Haiti, where they don't look Hispanic, but instead look like an 'African-American'? Do we start stopping all black people, too?

[ohitsmark]

I don't see if any different as when you watch an episode of Cops and they pull over a white woman in a black neighborhood, ask her for ID and then ask her why she is up in the area, which is known for drugs, then she confesses.

[caveBEAR]

The only explanation you can come up with is racism, huh? Why do I find that so typical?

So I guess everyone who brought up unemployment, financial security, drug cartels, and a burdened system which cannot support the surplus of aliens was just kidding and what they really meant was, "Lol, i h8 mexicans." Good call there, Malcom.

Unemployment? What jobs do you think illegal immigrants are getting exactly?

Financial security? Those two words cast a pretty broad net. What financial security? Who's?

Drug cartels? That is an inherently racist statement, as a majority of illegal immigrants are not involved in drug cartels, and if you really had a problem with that you'd extend these policies to American's who peddle drugs and are in gangs.

Burdened system? Again, who and what are burdened? The system is burdened because America creates burdens with legislation like this.

[ambulance]

1. Who cares what the view of the police is as long as they get the job done?
2. Actually, yes. I'm not racist against Hispanics, but they are more likely to be illegal, so the bill makes sense.

Okay, you obviously are going to continue to gloss over my other post. I just explained why its a problem what people think of police. Police won't be able to get their job done, if people are afraid to go to the police to report a crime.

[caveBEAR]

I don't see if any different as when you watch an episode of Cops and they pull over a white woman in a black neighborhood, ask her for ID and then ask her why she is up in the area, which is known for drugs, then she confesses.

Yeah, except they're stopping a woman in a known drug area who seems suspiciously out of place. You really going to try to say that Hispanic people look out of place in Arizona? :rolleyes:

[caveBEAR]

Okay, you obviously are going to continue to gloss over my other post. I just explained why its a problem what people think of police. Police won't be able to get their job done, if people are afraid to go to the police to report a crime.

Not uh! Just look at how trusting the average African-American in an urban slum is of police!

Oh, wait... :sadangel:

[ohitsmark]

Yeah, except they're stopping a woman in a known drug area who seems suspiciously out of place. You really going to try to say that Hispanic people look out of place in Arizona? :rolleyes:

They look out of place anywhere. :p

But I get what you're saying. If they aren't doing anything wrong, just like with any stop from police, what is the problem then? Thats how I feel about it.

Oh well. I miss living in Arizona though.

[ambulance]

I don't see if any different as when you watch an episode of Cops and they pull over a white woman in a black neighborhood, ask her for ID and then ask her why she is up in the area, which is known for drugs, then she confesses.

uhhhhhh. Yeah, so hispanics look out of place in America? Is that what you're suggesting. Because there is a minority in our country we should be able to suspect them of not belonging? Are you serious?

[caveBEAR]

But I get what you're saying. If they aren't doing anything wrong, just like with any stop from police, what is the problem then? Thats how I feel about it.

This is an entirely ass-backwards way to look at police, legislature and law enforcement.

But to each their own, I guess.

[Love As Arson]

The only explanation you can come up with is racism, huh? Why do I find that so typical?

So I guess everyone who brought up unemployment, financial security, drug cartels, and a burdened system which cannot support the surplus of aliens was just kidding and what they really meant was, "Lol, i h8 mexicans." Good call there, Malcom.
My point is, their solutions run counter to their ideology which often deplores any increase in government authority. There has to be a reason for this inconsistency and when we listen to the rhetoric, it is highly racist and nationalistic.

[Love As Arson]

Also, if we granted them amnesty, they wouldn't be a burden because they'd pay into the system. Although, they already contribute billions of dollars to social security.

[caveBEAR]

Also, if we granted them amnesty, they wouldn't be a burden because they'd pay into the system. Although, they already contribute billions of dollars to social security.

But, but...but...then there'd be even more Hispanic people here. :shudder:






:rolleyes:

[ambulance]

So you're not willing to discuss hypotheticals, but you are willing to use them as proof to back up your assertions?

Right.

I acknowledge that this bill might give legal Mexican citizens a minor inconvenience (pulling out an ID really isn't that hard) but it pales in comparrison to the absolute destruction illegal immigration is doing to the economy. If we don't do ANYTHING about illegal immigration and continue to allow unneccesary drains on our finances, soon there will not be an America for anyone to enjoy, be they legal citizens or not.

No, I'm saying you can take my hypothetical, and make it not work by implying more hypotheticals. I'm not going to argue IN hypotheticals. I gave an example of what could happen, I'm not saying it will or won't, but that it is a possibility. He was acting as if there was no way this could cause an inconvenience or create antipathy within a group. I was showing him that it is possible. (still not sure if this makes sense).

And I think you are still ignoring how either deporting or making all illegals legal will have a negative effect on our economy like many people have stated in this thread. By 'fixing' our illegal immigrant problem our economy isn't going to just magically get better. The system will be strained even more as those newly legalized immigrants will have to be paid minimum wage, given benefits, essentially changing the entire structure of some business, possibly creating even more unemployment, etc etc.

[mattmatumbo]

Bill won't make it through the courts.

[katyara]

White males are more likely to be serial killers. Someone should pass a law requiring them to carry around their psychiatric profiles.

:appl:

[showmethefever]

Racial profiling or educated guessing? How many white people in Arizona are illegal immigrants?

[Floater]

Unemployment? What jobs do you think illegal immigrants are getting exactly?

Financial security? Those two words cast a pretty broad net. What financial security? Who's?

Drug cartels? That is an inherently racist statement, as a majority of illegal immigrants are not involved in drug cartels, and if you really had a problem with that you'd extend these policies to American's who peddle drugs and are in gangs.

Burdened system? Again, who and what are burdened? The system is burdened because America creates burdens with legislation like this.

Jobs? Landscaping primarily. I can gurantee what you're going to say is either, "White people won't take the jobs Mexicans do," (which is racist in itself, funny how easily that can be turned around, huh?) or, "Landscapers won't hire as many citizens because that will cost them more money than it would to hire an alien," which is half the problem with illegal immigration in the first place.

By jeopardizing the financial system I'm refferring to the billions of dollars it costs to retain aliens in our prison system, medicate aliens who crowd hospitals, and the loss of billions of dollars which aliens do not pay in taxes which could otherwise be going to causes such as medical research centres, community groups, and other forms of national infrastructure.

The cataclyst for this bill's passing is the murder of an Arizona rancher at the hands of a drug cartel. A Mexican drug cartel, no less. And at no point did I say all aliens were involved with cartels, and yet you're willing to just jump to any conclusion which allows you to pull the race card which is just an excuse for people who refuse to assess legitimate problems involved with various minority groups for the skek of being PC. Like it or not, increased gang and drug activity have increased dramatically in the Texas/Arizona region due to illegal immigration.

And by burdened system I'm again refferring to the American economy which simply cannot operate with the constant influx of illegal aliens who are usurping jobs which could otherwise be going to unemployed citizens, the tax dollars which aliens do not pay, and the various federal institutions which are burdened with caring for aliens who should not be here in the first place.

You've stated that the legislation of this bill is more of a burden to the American system than the millions of aliens who are leaching off of it; that is preposterous. The fact is, illegal aliens are a cancer which needs to be removed. And before you fly off the handel, I am not saying Mexicans or any other minority group is a cancer, I'm saying illegal aliens (AKA criminals) are a cancer, so no, that is not a racist statement either.

[<*)))><]

What type of drug are they bringing into the country?

[Floater]

What type of drug are they bringing into the country?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

Cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine... you know, the good stuff.

[<*)))><]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

Cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine... you know, the good stuff.
Well if we send them back they will just come back with more, so the only logical answer is to give Mexico, Arizona.

[flks511]

:lol: Wow.



What exactly are your grievances with illegals here? What (exact) reasoning do you have for sending them back?



It's actually been proven that it's counter-productive to do this very thing, and it's proven by the 'shoe bomber' and 'underpants bomber', neither 'Middle-Eastern' in appearance.


Which leads us to, what do you propose we do with illegal immigrants from countries like Haiti, where they don't look Hispanic, but instead look like an 'African-American'? Do we start stopping all black people, too?
My grievance with illegals here is that they don't pay taxes, steal jobs from Americans, and the country is already overpopulated.

The bill doesn't specify that Hispanics are the only race allowed to be asked to prove their citizenship. If police have reason to believe someone is here illegally, they would have the right to stop anyone. (It's much easier for a Mexican to sneak across American borders than someone from Haiti.)

[caveBEAR]

My grievance with illegals here is that they don't pay taxes, steal jobs from Americans, and the country is already overpopulated.

They aren't stealing jobs that people are lining up for, they don't pay taxes, but they also don't reap the rewards of paying taxes, and they do pay taxes when they buy things. The country, as well, is not that over-populated, we just layed it out horribly. If smart architecture techniques were used, we could fit most of America into the few states in the center of the US of A.

The bill doesn't specify that Hispanics are the only race allowed to be asked to prove their citizenship. If police have reason to believe someone is here illegally, they would have the right to stop anyone. (It's much easier for a Mexican to sneak across American borders than someone from Haiti.)

The bill doesn't specify that you only have to stop Hispanics, you're right. It's just how it's going to be implemented. Remember, your worldview is also the worldview some police officers have, which is downright scary to me.

[.dot]

Illegal immigrants can stay, deport the juggalos!

[caveBEAR]

Jobs? Landscaping primarily. I can gurantee what you're going to say is either, "White people won't take the jobs Mexicans do," (which is racist in itself, funny how easily that can be turned around, huh?) or, "Landscapers won't hire as many citizens because that will cost them more money than it would to hire an alien," which is half the problem with illegal immigration in the first place.

Your the one who specified 'white people'. I was actually going to say that most Americans won't take the jobs that illegal immigrants take, which is very true. If you want to complain about why Americans won't take the jobs, then your fight is with the people hiring the illegals, and not the illegals themselves.

Oh, and are you fucking serious? Landscaping? Oh shit! Someone call Superman, all the landscaping jobs are gone! Hurry, quick, or all the tomato picking spots will be gone, too!!! :rolleyes:

By jeopardizing the financial system I'm refferring to the billions of dollars it costs to retain aliens in our prison system, medicate aliens who crowd hospitals, and the loss of billions of dollars which aliens do not pay in taxes which could otherwise be going to causes such as medical research centres, community groups, and other forms of national infrastructure.

Care to post the proof? I'd like to see the numbers here on the billions we're apparently spending.

The cataclyst for this bill's passing is the murder of an Arizona rancher at the hands of a drug cartel. A Mexican drug cartel, no less. And at no point did I say all aliens were involved with cartels, and yet you're willing to just jump to any conclusion which allows you to pull the race card which is just an excuse for people who refuse to assess legitimate problems involved with various minority groups for the skek of being PC. Like it or not, increased gang and drug activity have increased dramatically in the Texas/Arizona region due to illegal immigration.

You hinted all Hispanics are involved in drug cartels when you say it's OK to stop all Hispanic people and use drug cartels as your reasoning for so. A --> B --> C.

Actually, I think using race as a link to gang violence is just an excuse to not assess the real problems of drug use and gang activity in the slums of our nation.

And by burdened system I'm again refferring to the American economy which simply cannot operate with the constant influx of illegal aliens who are usurping jobs which could otherwise be going to unemployed citizens, the tax dollars which aliens do not pay, and the various federal institutions which are burdened with caring for aliens who should not be here in the first place.

You said yourself the jobs were mostly landscaping. Illegal immigrants can't even work in Wal-Mart for fuck's sake. Do you know how difficult the path to citizenship is? Are you also aware of the reasons that people can flee their country seeking asylum? Especially from Mexico, which you said, has drug cartel issues.

You've stated that the legislation of this bill is more of a burden to the American system than the millions of aliens who are leaching off of it; that is preposterous. The fact is, illegal aliens are a cancer which needs to be removed. And before you fly off the handel, I am not saying Mexicans or any other minority group is a cancer, I'm saying illegal aliens (AKA criminals) are a cancer, so no, that is not a racist statement either.

Ha ha ha ha ha, wow. I don't even know what to say to this. I think you're doing a great enough job digging your own hole, so I'm just going to put away my shovel now...


Your name is perfect, by the way, Floater.

[Love As Arson]

Are we forgetting that the American drug war is fuelingh gang violence? If we integrated them in the workforce, then we can increase wages, as there would be no underclass to undercut wages.Employment can be bolstered if the government initiated public works projects.

[reckoner]

Your the one who specified 'white people'. I was actually going to say that most Americans won't take the jobs that illegal immigrants take, which is very true. If you want to complain about why Americans won't take the jobs, then your fight is with the people hiring the illegals, and not the illegals themselves.

Oh, and are you fucking serious? Landscaping? Oh shit! Someone call Superman, all the landscaping jobs are gone! Hurry, quick, or all the tomato picking spots will be gone, too!!! :rolleyes:



Care to post the proof? I'd like to see the numbers here on the billions we're apparently spending.



You hinted all Hispanics are involved in drug cartels when you say it's OK to stop all Hispanic people and use drug cartels as your reasoning for so. A --> B --> C.

Actually, I think using race as a link to gang violence is just an excuse to not assess the real problems of drug use and gang activity in the slums of our nation.



You said yourself the jobs were mostly landscaping. Illegal immigrants can't even work in Wal-Mart for fuck's sake. Do you know how difficult the path to citizenship is? Are you also aware of the reasons that people can flee their country seeking asylum? Especially from Mexico, which you said, has drug cartel issues.



Ha ha ha ha ha, wow. I don't even know what to say to this. I think you're doing a great enough job digging your own hole, so I'm just going to put away my shovel now...


Your name is perfect, by the way, Floater.

Thank you. I worked with a lot of Hispanics. There were legal to my knowledge, and most worked 2 jobs from literally 8am-12am, 6-7 days a week. They did that to support their family that was still in Mexico and to try and give them a better life. That's a main reason they come here. It's fucked up to deny a person the right to a better life.

[caveBEAR]

Thank you. I worked with a lot of Hispanics. There were legal to my knowledge, and most worked 2 jobs from literally 8am-12am, 6-7 days a week. They did that to support their family that was still in Mexico and to try and give them a better life. That's a main reason they come here. It's fucked up to deny a person the right to a better life.

'Fucked up' is a pretty good way to describe most of the views being thrown around in this thread.

[Floater]

Your the one who specified 'white people'. I was actually going to say that most Americans won't take the jobs that illegal immigrants take, which is very true. If you want to complain about why Americans won't take the jobs, then your fight is with the people hiring the illegals, and not the illegals themselves.

Oh, and are you fucking serious? Landscaping? Oh shit! Someone call Superman, all the landscaping jobs are gone! Hurry, quick, or all the tomato picking spots will be gone, too!!! :rolleyes:



Care to post the proof? I'd like to see the numbers here on the billions we're apparently spending.



You hinted all Hispanics are involved in drug cartels when you say it's OK to stop all Hispanic people and use drug cartels as your reasoning for so. A --> B --> C.

Actually, I think using race as a link to gang violence is just an excuse to not assess the real problems of drug use and gang activity in the slums of our nation.



You said yourself the jobs were mostly landscaping. Illegal immigrants can't even work in Wal-Mart for fuck's sake. Do you know how difficult the path to citizenship is? Are you also aware of the reasons that people can flee their country seeking asylum? Especially from Mexico, which you said, has drug cartel issues.



Ha ha ha ha ha, wow. I don't even know what to say to this. I think you're doing a great enough job digging your own hole, so I'm just going to put away my shovel now...


Your name is perfect, by the way, Floater.

1) Americans won't take jobs that aliens are willing to do? Believe it or not, people are willing to take menial and/or physically laborious jobs when their family is at stake.

2) http://immigrationcounters.com/ There you are, and the sources for the statistics are to the right of the counter, most of which are taken from the US Census Bureau and other official federal agencies. So that's over 700 billion dollars. I don't know what your background in economics is, but 700 Billion dollars is kind of a big deal. Like really, a very, very big deal. Almost like something which is crippling the financial well-being of the nation. Like something that as a tax payer should be at least slightly bothered by.

3) I listed drug cartels as one of numerous reasons to justify this legislation, which is why this post in itself is so lengthy. But again, the bill requires reasonable suspicion. "Lol that guy's a Spic," does not entail as reasonable suspicion, so for the umpteenth time I am not espousing the investigation of all Mexicans simply because they are Mexican.

4) Who said becoming a citizen was easy? Look back a few decades, there were tons of immigrants from all over the world who had to undergo grueling conditions on transport boats, wait in huge lines at places like Ellis Island, and many were turned back for simply being sick. With all that in mind, I'd say it's not nearly as hard as it used to be. And the fact that there ARE immigrants who are becoming legal citizens (I have a an Irish friend who recently became a full-fledged citizen herself, so trust me, it IS possible). And even if it is somewhat difficult, does that mean it's okay to just bypass that system and in the process harm the country you're entering as well as being extremely unfair to all of the folks who are going through the trouble of doing things the right way?

5) Illegal immigration is not a cancer? I suppose the 700 Billion they're costing us is just fun and games to you, right? Truly, your ignorance knows no bounds.

[saveferris]

Wow, you are an idiot. Solving the problem with illegal immigrants is more important than not appearing racist (asking for documentation isn't racist, by the way).
This. Although i'm not sure if you're being biased because you're from Arizona. Either way I agree with you.

[saveferris]

I'm gonna troll the shit out of this thread. That's right I said it.

[<*)))><]

Are we forgetting that the American drug war is fuelingh gang violence? If we integrated them in the workforce, then we can increase wages, as there would be no underclass to undercut wages.Employment can be bolstered if the government initiated public works projects.
Government work projects are very ineffective, because they tend not to be permanent and lack job security. Second the only way how they pay the workers with tax money and if everyone worked for the government their would be no way to pay for everyone. Third what does that have to do with drug wars?

[caveBEAR]

I'm gonna troll the shit out of this thread. That's right I said it.

Cool story, bro.

Government work projects are very ineffective, because they tend not to be permanent and lack job security. Second the only way how they pay the workers with tax money and if everyone worked for the government their would be no way to pay for everyone. Third what does that have to do with drug wars?

You totally missed his point, but that's par for the course with you.

You don't need government work projects, you need the government to allow them into the (private) work force.

[caveBEAR]

1) Americans won't take jobs that aliens are willing to do? Believe it or not, people are willing to take menial and/or physically laborious jobs when their family is at stake.

2) http://immigrationcounters.com/ There you are, and the sources for the statistics are to the right of the counter, most of which are taken from the US Census Bureau and other official federal agencies. So that's over 700 billion dollars. I don't know what your background in economics is, but 700 Billion dollars is kind of a big deal. Like really, a very, very big deal. Almost like something which is crippling the financial well-being of the nation. Like something that as a tax payer should be at least slightly bothered by.

3) I listed drug cartels as one of numerous reasons to justify this legislation, which is why this post in itself is so lengthy. But again, the bill requires reasonable suspicion. "Lol that guy's a Spic," does not entail as reasonable suspicion, so for the umpteenth time I am not espousing the investigation of all Mexicans simply because they are Mexican.

4) Who said becoming a citizen was easy? Look back a few decades, there were tons of immigrants from all over the world who had to undergo grueling conditions on transport boats, wait in huge lines at places like Ellis Island, and many were turned back for simply being sick. With all that in mind, I'd say it's not nearly as hard as it used to be. And the fact that there ARE immigrants who are becoming legal citizens (I have a an Irish friend who recently became a full-fledged citizen herself, so trust me, it IS possible). And even if it is somewhat difficult, does that mean it's okay to just bypass that system and in the process harm the country you're entering as well as being extremely unfair to all of the folks who are going through the trouble of doing things the right way?

5) Illegal immigration is not a cancer? I suppose the 700 Billion they're costing us is just fun and games to you, right? Truly, your ignorance knows no bounds.

God, I just don't care anymore. You win, congrats.

EDIT: I put human lives above numbers, money and politics, so we just are never going to see eye to eye on this subject.

[apresnuledeluge]

It's amazing how many people are incapable of forming a proper rebuttal.

[<*)))><]

Cool story, bro.



You totally missed his point, but that's par for the course with you.

You don't need government work projects, you need the government to allow them into the (private) work force.
What are you talking about?

[caveBEAR]

What are you talking about?

He was talking about integrating illegal immigrants into our workforce, not just government work programs.

[<*)))><]

He was talking about integrating illegal immigrants into our workforce, not just government work programs.
Why should we care about illegal immigrates, some of them bring drugs and crime into this country which is better left outside of our boarders.

[saveferris]

Cool story, bro.














http://blog.ltpigtails.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/kill-yourself.bmp
Edit: Don't kill yourself. You're just so damn funny

[caveBEAR]

Why should we care about illegal immigrates, some of them bring drugs and crime into this country which is better left outside of our boarders.

Wow.

[Smash Adams]

Why should we care about illegal immigrates, some of them bring drugs and crime into this country which is better left outside of our boarders.
Some white people are molesting their kids, so we should randomly stop white people and be like yo did you fondle your kid

also
KLni3wbndls

[<*)))><]

Some white people are molesting their kids, so we should randomly stop white people and be like yo did you fondle your kid

also
KLni3wbndls
Some Hispanic are molesting their kids too. So lets "randomly" start searching their homes.

[caveBEAR]

Some Hispanic are molesting their kids too. So lets "randomly" start searching their homes.

How short are you? Because his point went way over your head.

[Smash Adams]

Some Hispanic are molesting their kids too. So lets "randomly" start searching their homes.
We should just search everyone's house because America

[Theseventhson]

Yeah, fuck people trying to better themselves !!!!111!!1

[samsara]

It's as simple as a driver's license, though. You can't get a license in this state without proving citizenship. It's not like everyone doesn't already carry this proof with them.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. NM gives drivers licenses to illegals.

What if someone were visiting Arizona and all they had was their license?

[caveBEAR]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. NM gives drivers licenses to illegals.

Do they really? Awesome.

[samsara]

Do they really? Awesome.

Yeah they do but the illegals have to pass the same tests and go through a background check.

[<*)))><]

Yeah, fuck people trying to better themselves !!!!111!!1
If someone has to feed their family and they rob their neighbor is it okay because they only wanted to help their family?

[caveBEAR]

Yeah they do but the illegals have to pass the same tests and go through a background check.

At least they're given the opportunity. I just assumed they couldn't apply for them, nice to see I was wrong.

[Scrandon]

So you're saying that by removing illegal immigrants the economy of such states would collapse because of the job loss?


Wouldn't it just create jobs for Legal immigrants/Citizens who might be unemployed?

Think about the reality of the situation: there are not lines out the door of people waiting to get a job on a farm for minimum wage.

I don't know about you, but I would never want to go get a job on a farm, or in a factory, or in construction... etc. and if illegal immigrants were to leave, I would be the exact kind of person who would have to fulfill that labor demand.

I would much rather me future have the continuation of college and the start of a career, as I'm sure most people in my place would want.

[Theseventhson]

If someone has to feed their family and they rob their neighbor is it okay because they only wanted to help their family?

If the government told them it would take 2 years, tests, and interviews for them to get their food like everyone else.

[samsara]

At least they're given the opportunity. I just assumed they couldn't apply for them, nice to see I was wrong.

Yeah I think we are one of the few states that do it. I dont mind it though.

[caveBEAR]

If someone has to feed their family and they rob their neighbor is it okay because they only wanted to help their family?

Yeah, that's not a stretch... :rolleyes:

Think about the reality of the situation: there are not lines out the door of people waiting to get a job on a farm for minimum wage.

I don't know about you, but I would never want to go get a job on a farm, or in a factory, or in construction... etc. and if illegal immigrants were to leave, I would be the exact kind of person who would have to fulfill that labor demand.

I would much rather me future have the continuation of college and the start of a career, as I'm sure most people in my place would want.

You and I disagree on a lot, but I honestly couldn't think of a topic I'd rather agree with you on more than this.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

It's only a matter of time until similar laws will be enacted in Washington State, North Dakota, Montana, Minnesota, Michigan, New York, and Maine. So many illegal Canadians, it's getting ridiculous!!

[caveBEAR]

Yeah I think we are one of the few states that do it. I dont mind it though.

It's awesome. I think a lot of people forget in the argument that illegal immigrants are still people.

[richter915]

Yeah, fuck people trying to better themselves !!!!111!!1
what?

[richter915]

Think about the reality of the situation: there are not lines out the door of people waiting to get a job on a farm for minimum wage.

I don't know about you, but I would never want to go get a job on a farm, or in a factory, or in construction... etc. and if illegal immigrants were to leave, I would be the exact kind of person who would have to fulfill that labor demand.

I would much rather me future have the continuation of college and the start of a career, as I'm sure most people in my place would want.
right I think what a lot of people don't realize is that more and more people who are unemployed in this recession have more than a HS degree..hell even a HS degree should get you a better job than what most immigrants do.

[Theseventhson]

what?

I was being facetious

[samsara]

It's awesome. I think a lot of people forget in the argument that illegal immigrants are still people.

Yeah a lot of the girls I work with are working on getting their citizenship because they are afraid that something might happen.

[<*)))><]

If the government told them it would take 2 years, tests, and interviews for them to get their food like everyone else.
I think the law will say otherwise.

[Scrandon]

You and I disagree on a lot, but I honestly couldn't think of a topic I'd rather agree with you on more than this.

So no more calling me a one-dimensional tool? Cool Beans.

[Theseventhson]

I think the law will say otherwise.

So the government is right without question?

[richter915]

It's awesome. I think a lot of people forget in the argument that illegal immigrants are still people.
thank you. This is something that I blame the media for constantly. It's a device used since the beginning of time and perfectly symbolized during fascist regimes...you dehumanized those you appose and that way you get the support of the majority. Many people who support legislation such as this see illegal immigrants as less than human...thus justifying inhumane treatment of them such as requiring them to show identification based on superficial suspicion. This was the difference between the North and South during slavery and the post-war era...Southern slaveowners did not see slaves as humans but rather as property, therefore, they were doing nothing wrong. It's really no different now.

[caveBEAR]

So no more calling me a one-dimensional tool? Cool Beans.

:whistle:

Guilty as charged, but in my defense, this is the first time I'm seeing the other dimension.

I think the law will say otherwise.

Stupid laws are meant to be broken. ;-)

[Scrandon]

By the way... Even in a severe recession and job loss at record highs, we still could not fulfill all the jobs that would be left vacant if every illegal immigrant was to leave.

(And that's even assuming people would be 100% willing to accept shitty jobs for shitty wages, relocate their families,..... and the list goes on).

[richter915]

By the way... Even in a severe recession and job loss at record highs, we still could not fulfill all the jobs that would be left vacant if every illegal immigrant was to leave.

(And that's even assuming people would be 100% willing to accept shitty jobs for shitty wages, relocate their families,..... and the list goes on).
booyah

[caveBEAR]

By the way... Even in a severe recession and job loss at record highs, we still could not fulfill all the jobs that would be left vacant if every illegal immigrant was to leave.

(And that's even assuming people would be 100% willing to accept shitty jobs for shitty wages, relocate their families,..... and the list goes on).

Not to mention, as I learned from Food, Inc, apparently the meat packing industry would fall once again to the mafia. :shudder:

No, but seriously, companies in America are actively recruiting illegal immigrants as we pass legislation to kick them out. X-)

[saysmydoctor]

Ah, is the federal government intervention you demanded backfiring Arizona? Smart move, using the same failed basis for previous policy (racism) that didn't work....so of course, the logical thing to do is to continue using this as the basis for another policy.

[<*)))><]

So the government is right without question?
The government is mostly wrong, but liberals think it is always right, ask Beer4bears. But don't you think it is should be a hard process to gain the privilege of becoming an American citizen? It is pretty nice to be free and my ancestors worked to become citizens, theirs should too.
:whistle:

Guilty as charged, but in my defense, this is the first time I'm seeing the other dimension.



Stupid laws are meant to be broken. ;-)
Laws against thief are stupid? :-p

[perceptrons]

Wow, this thread was one of the most chock full of stupid I've read in awhile.

[caveBEAR]

The government is mostly wrong, but liberals think it is always right, ask Beer4bears. But don't you think it is should be a hard process to gain the privilege of becoming an American citizen? It is pretty nice to be free and my ancestors worked to become citizens, theirs should too.

Laws against thief are stupid? :-p

If there was a law requiring me to wait to years to provide for my family you better believe I'd break it in a heartbeat.

[Theseventhson]

The government is mostly wrong, but liberals think it is always right, ask Beer4bears. But don't you think it is should be a hard process to gain the privilege of becoming an American citizen? It is pretty nice to be free and my ancestors worked to become citizens, theirs should too.
Lol. That's all I can say. No it shouldn't be a hard process to become a citizen.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

It says this on the fucking Statue of Liberty.

[<*)))><]

If there was a law requiring me to wait to years to provide for my family you better believe I'd break it in a heartbeat.
Then bye bye :wave:

Lol. That's all I can say. No it shouldn't be a hard process to become a citizen.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

It says this on the fucking Statue of Liberty. My family came here illegally to avoid the Nazi's, but I guess they should've just been sent back, too.
Stereotypically Mexicans are tired and poor but know where does it say anything about bringing murder, drugs and crime in that.

[Theseventhson]

Then bye bye :wave:


Stereotypically Mexicans are tired and poor but know where does it say anything about bringing murder, drugs and crime in that.

Okay, I see we're done here.

[caveBEAR]

Stereotypically Mexicans are tired and poor but know where does it say anything about bringing murder, drugs and crime in that.

God, go back to the PL Forum you moron.

[richter915]

Then bye bye :wave:


Stereotypically Mexicans are tired and poor but know where does it say anything about bringing murder, drugs and crime in that.
hahahaha. Yet, he's allowed to vote. It's absurd.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Cracking down on Canadian immigrants should be just as important as cracking down on immigrants from Latin American countries.

[caveBEAR]

hahahaha. Yet, he's allowed to vote. It's absurd.

Exactly.

[samsara]

Then bye bye :wave:


Stereotypically Mexicans are tired and poor but know where does it say anything about bringing murder, drugs and crime in that.

Oh wow that is so fucking offensive.

[richter915]

Oh wow that is so fucking offensive.
well clearly murder, drugs, and crime didn't exist before illegal immigration.

[Adrian Villagomez]

Try as Arizona might, they won't be able to stop Chicanos from breeding like bunnies and overrunning the country.

[loveisdead]

Then bye bye :wave:


Stereotypically Mexicans are tired and poor but know where does it say anything about bringing murder, drugs and crime in that.

Thanks for stopping in. You officially crossed the line.

[loveisdead]

Try as Arizona might, they won't be able to stop Chicanos from breeding like bunnies and overrunning the country.

Just what we need. More Villagomezes.

[Adrian Villagomez]

Just what we need. More Villagomezes.I'm not breeding anytime soon. Hopefully.

[samsara]

well clearly murder, drugs, and crime didn't exist before illegal immigration.

Dont forget prostitution.

[loveisdead]

Dont forget prostitution.

That kid has been tiptoeing the line for so long.

[samsara]

That kid has been tiptoeing the line for so long.

He has been banned before but just made another profile. He is a dick.

[Love As Arson]

Government work projects are very ineffective, because they tend not to be permanent and lack job security. Second the only way how they pay the workers with tax money and if everyone worked for the government their would be no way to pay for everyone. Third what does that have to do with drug wars?
Government works is a short-term project which creates long-term growth in the economic center. In any event, I do not think amnesty would have a negative effect on employment. As for the drug violence, it is related to the harsh drug policy which creates a black market economy under which competition manifests itself as violence.

[caveBEAR]

He has been banned before but just made another profile. He is a dick.

He'll be back...and in greater numbers.

[samsara]

He'll be back...and in greater numbers.

That kinda depresses me.

[ArTkY_]

I'm not breeding anytime soon. Hopefully.
I'll be breeding like a mother fucker, bringing more Muslims named Khan into the world.

[richter915]

I'll be breeding like a mother fucker, bringing more Muslims named Khan into the world.
sickkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

[caveBEAR]

I'll be breeding like a mother fucker, bringing more Muslims named Khan into the world.

KHAAAAAAAAAANNN!!!!!



Sorry, seemed obligatory.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

G5f_gbzo4Q0

[samsara]

I'm sure fishboy will be glad to hear I wont be popping out any kids.

[caveBEAR]

I'm sure fishboy will be glad to hear I wont be popping out any kids.

I believe Fishboy won't be seeing anything from this thread anymore.

[samsara]

I believe Fishboy won't be seeing anything from this thread anymore.

Very true but I think if he wants to he will. People are sneaky like that.

[richter915]

I'm sure fishboy will be glad to hear I wont be popping out any kids.
you should breed. or at the least teach young ppl to have good morals.

[samsara]

you should breed. or at the least teach young ppl to have good morals.

Thats where my 8 nephews and nieces factor in.

[IntoTheSun]

Stereotypically Mexicans are tired and poor but know where does it say anything about bringing murder, drugs and crime in that.

Wow, what the fuck.

[richter915]

Wow, what the fuck.
nice reference to Xiu Xiu in your little quote thing there.

[IntoTheSun]

nice reference to Xiu Xiu in your little quote thing there.

Wait, where? haha. I wasn't aware I was referencing them. But yeah, great band.

[zion the lion]

So Arizona is racist? That's all I've really learned from this thread.

[caveBEAR]

So Arizona is racist? That's all I've really learned from this thread.

Nah, it is as it always has been; racists are racist.

[zion the lion]

Nah, it is as it always has been; racists are racist.

I thought arizona might be racist when I saw something on the KKK but now I know for sure that its on my list of states not to go to.

[samsara]

Never come to NM either.

[yeahdude]

Not gonna read through 14 pages of bullshit..

However, living in San Diego, (a border town next to Tijuana for those of you who aren't familiar with US Geography, which the first poster seemed to completely forget about California), I see the effects of illegal immigration nearly every day. I've had shit stolen out of my front yard, my car, and garage from illegals. I've actually caught them, and I'm not racially profiling. If I was in Mexico and stole something, I'd get fucking beheaded and hung from an overpass. What part of ILLEGAL is hard for people to understand? Why is it when someone breaks into your house, its ok to protect your home, call the police, do whatever it takes, and then the person who ILLEGALLY entered your house goes to jail, yet when someone breaks into the country, we reward them with benefits that our tax dollars pay for, yet legal citizens have to worry about paying bills and taxes and keep food on the table. Our country is so worried and caught up in politically correctness that we've forgotten what it means to do things the right way. Come here legally, or get the fuck out. Thanks.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Not gonna read through 14 pages of bullshit..

However, living in San Diego, (a border town next to Tijuana for those of you who aren't familiar with US Geography, which the first poster seemed to completely forget about California), I see the effects of illegal immigration nearly every day. I've had shit stolen out of my front yard, my car, and garage from illegals. I've actually caught them, and I'm not racially profiling. If I was in Mexico and stole something, I'd get fucking beheaded and hung from an overpass. What part of ILLEGAL is hard for people to understand? Why is it when someone breaks into your house, its ok to protect your home, call the police, do whatever it takes, and then the person who ILLEGALLY entered your house goes to jail, yet when someone breaks into the country, we reward them with benefits that our tax dollars pay for, yet legal citizens have to worry about paying bills and taxes and keep food on the table. Our country is so worried and caught up in politically correctness that we've forgotten what it means to do things the right way. Come here legally, or get the fuck out. Thanks.

I feel your pain. I live in New England. Every time I've been criminally victimized, it was from illegal European and Canadian immigrants.

[yeahdude]

I feel your pain. I live in New England. Every time I've been criminally victimized, it was from illegal European and Canadian immigrants.


Cool avatar man, way to show the Obama pride. He's doing great, by the way. I'm sure you're not jut another flaming liberal who believes anything CNN and Michael Moore tell you. I'm sure you're intelligent. Find me the statistics of Canadians coming here illegally and draining our tax dollars by the billions. I have no problem with Mexicans. I have no problem with Canadians or Europeans. I have a problem with people breaking the law and reaping the benefits of being a citizen without paying into it. When you grow up and take a gander at your paycheck, plus all the various taxes we pay, property, sales, etc, you will have no problem realizing nearly 70% of your earnings go to the government to do with as they please. Have fun.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Cool avatar man, way to show the Obama pride. He's doing great, by the way. I'm sure you're not jut another flaming liberal who believes anything CNN and Michael Moore tell you. I'm sure you're intelligent. Find me the statistics of Canadians coming here illegally and draining our tax dollars by the billions. I have no problem with Mexicans. I have no problem with Canadians or Europeans. I have a problem with people breaking the law and reaping the benefits of being a citizen without paying into it. When you grow up and take a gander at your paycheck, plus all the various taxes we pay, property, sales, etc, you will have no problem realizing nearly 70% of your earnings go to the government to do with as they please. Have fun.

Dude... if you haven't been keeping aware of my track record... I'm a fucking socialist. I want to spread the wealth. I'm glad my tax dollars are going towards those that need it. I'm a proud American. I welcome every person who wants to make it in this country, whether or not they were born to naturalized citizens or who were born abroad and wish to live here. You seem to associate that those who are here "illegally" tend to commit crimes. Well guess what, American citizens also commit crimes. And yes, I accept that my and your tax dollars are funding the well-being of convicted criminals (food, shelter, entertainment). It's the world we live in. I've adapted to it. If you cannot accept that, well, complaining won't do you much good.

[showmethefever]

We get it Jake Gyllenhaal, you never got to shoot your gun in Jarhead, now shut the fuck up.

[samsara]

We get it Jake Gyllenhaal, you never got to shoot your gun in Jarhead, now shut the fuck up.

He is just expressing his opinions like you are now.

[caveBEAR]

We get it Jake Gyllenhaal, you never got to shoot your gun in Jarhead, now shut the fuck up.

Swing and a miss.

[showmethefever]

Swing and a miss.
In the aspect that him bitching/trying to make a joke or something about illegal Canadian immigration? Then yeah.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Sort of off topic, but be sure to check out The Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time... May 19th from Walt Disney Pictures

A0Nr-82rbHA

[showmethefever]

Sort of off topic, but be sure to check out The Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time... May 19th from Walt Disney Pictures

A0Nr-82rbHA
Touché and he (you) looks comical in that role haha.

[reckoner]

Not gonna read through 14 pages of bullshit..

However, living in San Diego, (a border town next to Tijuana for those of you who aren't familiar with US Geography, which the first poster seemed to completely forget about California), I see the effects of illegal immigration nearly every day. I've had shit stolen out of my front yard, my car, and garage from illegals. I've actually caught them, and I'm not racially profiling. If I was in Mexico and stole something, I'd get fucking beheaded and hung from an overpass. What part of ILLEGAL is hard for people to understand? Why is it when someone breaks into your house, its ok to protect your home, call the police, do whatever it takes, and then the person who ILLEGALLY entered your house goes to jail, yet when someone breaks into the country, we reward them with benefits that our tax dollars pay for, yet legal citizens have to worry about paying bills and taxes and keep food on the table. Our country is so worried and caught up in politically correctness that we've forgotten what it means to do things the right way. Come here legally, or get the fuck out. Thanks.

As said before... perhaps if it was easier to become a citizen, crime would drop. Seems like the right approach.

[RX XR]

I haven't followed any of this thread so I have no idea what people have been saying, but for everyone against it you won't understand until you actually experience it. It is not racial profiling if you listen to what the governor has to say. If you want me to get into detail I will, but I live in central Phoenix and it is completely filled with illegals and it is still the most rundown part of the city despite recent tens of millions dollars in renovation to the area. The illegals come in and do whatever they want because they aren't registered and have nothing to lose at all. For all the people lashing the bill, come live in central Phoenix, or even worse Tucson.

[samsara]

I've stayed in Phoenix its not THAT bad.

[Gumbyjag]

Arizona is a wonderful state who just fell under the spell of a certain someone signing a bill that shit on millions of people's lives. So don't say "fuck Arizona".

Try living here and seeing how fun it's going to be when they start really enforcing this, seeing as almost every other person here is of Hispanic/Mexican descent.

I don't see the bill as infringing on actual American's civil rights, but it certainly a step in that direction. This shit just gave our government leeway to possibly come up with something similar in the future that could be really really serious.

Like many have said, this is just a horrible start to fixing a big problem, which if handled correctly, may not be a problem. Racism runs deep, even here, and there are many who feel like they've won something with this bill, likewise the ones who feel that our state took one huge leap backwards. Raising tension like this, in a time when militias are sprouting up more than ever, gang violence and drug trafficing show no signs of letting up (anywhere in the country), and there is a profound sense of racism in this country, singling out a particular race, for any reason, even if by trying to benefit the country, is not going to solve illegal immigration overnight.

[demora]

Not gonna read through 14 pages of bullshit..

However, living in San Diego, (a border town next to Tijuana for those of you who aren't familiar with US Geography, which the first poster seemed to completely forget about California), I see the effects of illegal immigration nearly every day. I've had shit stolen out of my front yard, my car, and garage from illegals. I've actually caught them, and I'm not racially profiling. If I was in Mexico and stole something, I'd get fucking beheaded and hung from an overpass. What part of ILLEGAL is hard for people to understand? Why is it when someone breaks into your house, its ok to protect your home, call the police, do whatever it takes, and then the person who ILLEGALLY entered your house goes to jail, yet when someone breaks into the country, we reward them with benefits that our tax dollars pay for, yet legal citizens have to worry about paying bills and taxes and keep food on the table. Our country is so worried and caught up in politically correctness that we've forgotten what it means to do things the right way. Come here legally, or get the fuck out. Thanks.



so non-citizens don't pay bills or worry about keeping food on the table because the government just drowns them in "rewards"? also, i highly doubt that immigrants are solely responsible for san diego's criminal activity. i've had shit stolen out of my front yard, my car, and garage by american citizens. stuff like that will keep going down whether or not immigrants are present in the country illegally.

[AttAss]

I just don't see an issue with this - if i was living in AZ and was of hispanic decent I would not feel offended if an officer suspected me of being illegal - I would be proud to provide documentation that I was here legally and say fuck you for thinking otherwise. I think the discrimination comes when everyone assumes that any hispanic person is here legal - oh this new bill will certainnly clear the air - good job AZ - lets hope more states follow!

[richter915]

Wait, where? haha. I wasn't aware I was referencing them. But yeah, great band.
"I will always be nicer to the cat" - that's from Dear God, I Hate Myself.

[richter915]

Not gonna read through 14 pages of bullshit..

However, living in San Diego, (a border town next to Tijuana for those of you who aren't familiar with US Geography, which the first poster seemed to completely forget about California), I see the effects of illegal immigration nearly every day. I've had shit stolen out of my front yard, my car, and garage from illegals. I've actually caught them, and I'm not racially profiling. If I was in Mexico and stole something, I'd get fucking beheaded and hung from an overpass. What part of ILLEGAL is hard for people to understand? Why is it when someone breaks into your house, its ok to protect your home, call the police, do whatever it takes, and then the person who ILLEGALLY entered your house goes to jail, yet when someone breaks into the country, we reward them with benefits that our tax dollars pay for, yet legal citizens have to worry about paying bills and taxes and keep food on the table. Our country is so worried and caught up in politically correctness that we've forgotten what it means to do things the right way. Come here legally, or get the fuck out. Thanks.
Just because the constitution says it's a crime does not always mean its a crime. Someone physically breaking into your house which you bought with your money (aka, your property), that's a crime and you have a right to defend it and go through the proper, humane means to protect it (2nd amendment can eat a dick). Someone coming into the US is not breaking into your property, you don't own the country, we all buy into it and we have to humanely approach the problem. Racial profiling is not humane. I'm sorry you got your shit stolen but as Jake pointed out, crimes can and are committed by all kinds of humans, not just people whom the US says is "illegal".

oh and to add on, the rewards you talk about are supplying basic human needs (food, water, education)...if you honestly believe that depriving men, women, and children of those things...I don't know what to tell you.

[richter915]

I just don't see an issue with this - if i was living in AZ and was of hispanic decent I would not feel offended if an officer suspected me of being illegal - I would be proud to provide documentation that I was here legally and say fuck you for thinking otherwise. I think the discrimination comes when everyone assumes that any hispanic person is here legal - oh this new bill will certainnly clear the air - good job AZ - lets hope more states follow!
well that's the real issue here, there have already been many cases of latinos being falsely accused and having to provide documentation...and now the police have the law on their side to do whatever they please. Think of it this way...your neighbors are having a party...turns out to be a quincenera...they're playing Mexican music, eating burritos, every stereotype you can think of. Now, you can call the police and tell them that you suspect your neighbors are illegal immigrants and the cops are totally allowed to come and investigate their papers. In fact, you can sue the state for refusing to do as such. Just try and put yourself in their shoes, that's the best I could hope for.

And from this thread, the feelings towards illegal immigrants are really split, you can bet this gives American citizens and authorities power that humans should not be given.

[Impress]

Think about the reality of the situation: there are not lines out the door of people waiting to get a job on a farm for minimum wage.

I don't know about you, but I would never want to go get a job on a farm, or in a factory, or in construction... etc. and if illegal immigrants were to leave, I would be the exact kind of person who would have to fulfill that labor demand.

I would much rather me future have the continuation of college and the start of a career, as I'm sure most people in my place would want.

Well if I was in dire need of some income I would undoubtedly take any job that I can get. Sure there would be some jobs that I would never consider, but since I know (somewhat) what it is like to work on a farm I would do so until a better opportunity came up.

I do understand what you are saying though. Maybe I would be the one guy out of however many unemployed people, that would be willing to work on a farm for a little bit of income.

[richter915]

Well if I was in dire need of some income I would undoubtedly take any job that I can get. Sure there would be some jobs that I would never consider, but since I know (somewhat) what it is like to work on a farm I would do so until a better opportunity came up.

I do understand what you are saying though. Maybe I would be the one guy out of however many unemployed people, that would be willing to work on a farm for a little bit of income.
right and to add on...because you are a citizen, it works against you here because the employer may not be able to afford American workers (remember, those who work off the books can be given less than minimum wage and do not collect benefits such as social security, insurance, or welfare - factoring this in, the american worker at minimum must get around 7-8 dollars an hour before taxes)

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

I just don't see an issue with this - if i was living in AZ and was of hispanic decent I would not feel offended if an officer suspected me of being illegal - I would be proud to provide documentation that I was here legally and say fuck you for thinking otherwise. I think the discrimination comes when everyone assumes that any hispanic person is here legal - oh this new bill will certainnly clear the air - good job AZ - lets hope more states follow!

I can only imagine a legal Hispanic citizen having to show proper documentation on a daily basis every time they are in the presence of law enforcement. That would get annoying.

[Scrandon]

Well if I was in dire need of some income I would undoubtedly take any job that I can get. Sure there would be some jobs that I would never consider, but since I know (somewhat) what it is like to work on a farm I would do so until a better opportunity came up.

I do understand what you are saying though. Maybe I would be the one guy out of however many unemployed people, that would be willing to work on a farm for a little bit of income.
Fair enough, but there's also this fact:

By the way... Even in a severe recession and job loss at record highs, we still could not fulfill all the jobs that would be left vacant if every illegal immigrant was to leave.

(And that's even assuming people would be 100% willing to accept shitty jobs for shitty wages, relocate their families,..... and the list goes on).

About 20 million illegal immigrants (presumably at full employment, because that's what there here for) vs. less than 10 million Americans jobless past the point of full employment.

[Nevuk]

Wrong again. Having to prove your citizenship is not an injustice. It's not like they're throwing you in jail based on your appearance.

This bill should only be a problem for illegal immigrants. If you're legal, you shouldn't even have to worry about it.edit : Maaaybe this was a bit excessive

[deFobbed14yrs]

jews had to carry passports too, back in the 40's. shit turned out well for them didn't it

[deFobbed14yrs]

I just don't see an issue with this - if i was living in AZ and was of hispanic decent I would not feel offended if an officer suspected me of being illegal - I would be proud to provide documentation that I was here legally and say fuck you for thinking otherwise. I think the discrimination comes when everyone assumes that any hispanic person is here legal - oh this new bill will certainnly clear the air - good job AZ - lets hope more states follow!



:jawdrop: srsly, be proud?


or not.

[caveBEAR]

I just don't see an issue with this - if i was living in AZ and was of hispanic decent I would not feel offended if an officer suspected me of being illegal - I would be proud to provide documentation that I was here legally and say fuck you for thinking otherwise. I think the discrimination comes when everyone assumes that any hispanic person is here legal - oh this new bill will certainnly clear the air - good job AZ - lets hope more states follow!

:lol:

You can't really be that stupid. Can you even spell 'civil rights'?

[re7ard1337]

Does it actually allow warrantless searches of homes? I did not read that in the article you posted.

And in all fairness, asking someone to see proof of citizenship does not sound like the end of the world to me. How else do you intend on combatting something which is a multi-billion dollar burden on an already economically strained country? In my opinion, it seems like asking someone for proof of citizenship is a no-brainer. But apparently that's being racist.

I WANT TO SEE OBAMA'S PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP!

/ignorantconservative

[richter915]

I WANT TO SEE OBAMA'S PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP!

/ignorantconservative
well, he fits the description...tan skinned but not clearly black, suspicious idea that America is a great country.

[Mibabalou]

Don't come over here illegally and you won't have a problem. It may be racial profiling, but if you're legal then no biggie. At least one state is doing something drastic to address the huge problem we have with illegal immigration.

yepp

[mattmatumbo]

Nah, it is as it always has been; racists are racist.

Ever since my dad moved to Yuma, he's hated Mexicans; but not Hondurans, Costa Ricans or any of the nationalities people who come here hail from. We've summed up a whole region of north america into one nationality. Bravo America, bravo!

[richter915]

yepp
easier said than done.

[jwicklun]

My friend on Facebook:
Sorry to inform you Barack, but it is 'legal' for police to ask for proof of citizenship if they are suspected as illegal. Sorry you dont live in AZ and deal with it, leave us alone and worry about Washington

Never knew that racial profiling was life long custom in Arizona.

[Mibabalou]

can i just move to switzerland?

[IntoTheSun]

"I will always be nicer to the cat" - that's from Dear God, I Hate Myself.

Oh, my usertitle! Gotcha.

[rawesome]

I haven't read through this whole thread, nor do I have the time, but I'm simply going to post this. (http://insert.newsvine.com/_news/2007/09/30/995266-we-need-illegal-immigrants-as-much-as-they-need-us)

All of the people who say we need to get ride of illegal immigrants are essentially dooming America. They're the new backbone of our labor force. Don't believe a guy on the internet, why not ask Washington apple farmers (http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/article_bace3717-df32-579f-9afe-05b9ec8e314a.html) house business is going. Hell the whole industry (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/world/americas/21iht-immig.1.7192110.html), as do almost all farms and the meat-packing industry.

Not only is this bill horribly backwards and racist, which, regardless of your stance on immigration, I don't see how anyone can deny. It also may serve to destroy the economy in the Soutwest, depending on how "effective" it is.

[RX XR]

Last year an illegal was pulling out onto a main street and my math teacher hit the illegal (it was obviously the illegals fault) and caused thousands of dollars in damage to both cars. While it should have been paid for by the illegal, he didn't have insurance or identification and my math teacher was forced to pay for the entire thing. Fair?

[caveBEAR]

Last year an illegal was pulling out onto a main street and my math teacher hit the illegal (it was obviously the illegals fault) and caused thousands of dollars in damage to both cars. While it should have been paid for by the illegal, he didn't have insurance or identification and my math teacher was forced to pay for the entire thing. Fair?

My father was in the exact same situation. Except the guy wasn't an illegal, he was a legal citizen who didn't have insurance. I know, crazy, right?

Your avatar has no place in a forum that has the potential the breed intelligent discussion. Fuck off.

[Mitch]

Wow, I didn't even notice his avatar. Wish you hadn't called my attention to it.

[Scrandon]

Last year an illegal was pulling out onto a main street and my math teacher hit the illegal (it was obviously the illegals fault) and caused thousands of dollars in damage to both cars. While it should have been paid for by the illegal, he didn't have insurance or identification and my math teacher was forced to pay for the entire thing. Fair?

Has nothing to do with whether the guy was illegal or not. Plenty of Americans don't buy insurance either.

Maybe tell your math teacher to pay for 'uninsured driver' in his insurance like the rest of us. Life sucks, deal with it.

[Scrandon]

My father was in the exact same situation. Except the guy wasn't an illegal, he was a legal citizen who didn't have insurance. I know, crazy, right?

Your avatar has no place in a forum that has the potential the breed intelligent discussion. Fuck off.

Wow.

[Love As Arson]

Last year an illegal was pulling out onto a main street and my math teacher hit the illegal (it was obviously the illegals fault) and caused thousands of dollars in damage to both cars. While it should have been paid for by the illegal, he didn't have insurance or identification and my math teacher was forced to pay for the entire thing. Fair?

For years, American agricultural and economic policies has forced Latin American countries into slashing social spending,as well as depressing wages; then there is anger when some cross the border because of these conditions. Fair? It also represents the most blatant hypocrisy: labor cannot move across borders as they wish, but capital can.

[caveBEAR]

Wow.

Too harsh or not harsh enough?

[Scrandon]

Too harsh or not harsh enough?

No, you beat me to it...

Has nothing to do with whether the guy was illegal or not. Plenty of Americans don't buy insurance either.

Maybe tell your math teacher to pay for 'uninsured driver' in his insurance like the rest of us. Life sucks, deal with it.

[saysmydoctor]

Tancredo's heart grew two sizes.
(http://feedproxy.google.com/%7Er/PoliticalWire/%7E3/CUmM7UuMSq0/tancredo_says_arizona_law_goes_too_ far.html)

[Floater]

I WANT TO SEE OBAMA'S PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP!

/ignorantconservative

That's uh, neither what I said nor what I implied. As a matter of fact, I'm not even remotely conservative. I'm just a bit of a polemicist is all. I did not know much about this issue when I first commented, and it seemed a bit one-sided, seeing as the thread itself is called "Fuck Arizona," (you know, keepin' it classy). So I took up the opposing viewpoint and defended it with varying degrees of logic so as to be met with equal degrees of logic from the other side. That way I'm able to attain a much more informed view, forming an opinion through the exchange of ideas.

The only downfall to that via internet is there's invariably going to be a large amount of simpletons who just revert to ad hominum attacks (yourself, for example). Sometimes it's good for a laugh when the humor being employed is satirical (the quip on white males being forced to reveal their mental competency since they make up the largest percentage of serial killers was good) but when it's just, "lol ur dumb," or "ur ignorant," it becomes an attack on the arguer instead of the arguement and that does not serve any purpose. In fact, it usually shows an inability to reason on the part of the aggressor since he or she appears incabaple of refuting the other's point.

So long story short, I do not neccessarily support this bill, but I understand why it was passed and the reasoning behind it. And when I debate something, I very rarely revert to my own personal views right away, especially when I'm ignorant of the discussion. I pick a side and stick with it regaurdless of whether or not I support that particular view and in that way I'm able to form an opinion based on the responses I receive.

I recommend others try it too; it's a great learning tool.

[re7ard1337]

That's uh, neither what I said nor what I implied. As a matter of fact, I'm not even remotely conservative. I'm just a bit of a polemicist is all. I did not know much about this issue when I first commented, and it seemed a bit one-sided, seeing as the thread itself is called "Fuck Arizona," (you know, keepin' it classy). So I took up the opposing viewpoint and defended it with varying degrees of logic so as to be met with equal degrees of logic from the other side. That way I'm able to attain a much more informed view, forming an opinion through the exchange of ideas.

The only downfall to that via internet is there's invariably going to be a large amount of simpletons who just revert to ad hominum attacks (yourself, for example). Sometimes it's good for a laugh when the humor being employed is satirical (the quip on white males being forced to reveal their mental competency since they make up the largest percentage of serial killers was good) but when it's just, "lol ur dumb," or "ur ignorant," it becomes an attack on the arguer instead of the arguement and that does not serve any purpose. In fact, it usually shows an inability to reason on the part of the aggressor since he or she appears incabaple of refuting the other's point.

So long story short, I do not neccessarily support this bill, but I understand why it was passed and the reasoning behind it.


haha, chill out bro. it wasn't attacking you, it was just a joke.

[caveBEAR]

That's uh, neither what I said nor what I implied. As a matter of fact, I'm not even remotely conservative. I'm just a bit of a polemicist is all. I did not know much about this issue when I first commented, and it seemed a bit one-sided, seeing as the thread itself is called "Fuck Arizona," (you know, keepin' it classy). So I took up the opposing viewpoint and defended it with varying degrees of logic so as to be met with equal degrees of logic from the other side. That way I'm able to attain a much more informed view, forming an opinion through the exchange of ideas.

Dude, I know what you mean. I hate it when everyone just gangs up on someone or something because they think it's 'wrong'. I mean, if I had a nickel every time I defended Nazis when people were all being one sided against them, I'd have...oh, that's right, no nickels.

:rolleyes:

[saysmydoctor]

I just think it's important to note that this argument of federal abandon is a bold lie. As a matter of fact, it was Napolitano who pushed and lobbied the federal government to bring more Border Patrol to the state, and successfully so, in response to a federal plan that essentially made Arizona the only place illegals could cross the border--a plan lobbied for by the former Governor and her past administration.

They may not agree with the federal government's methodology, fine, and the previous. But to say it's federal government failing to answer to the demands of the states is a bold-faced lie.

[whenyourearound]

I definitely think we need something to curb all these illegal mexicans coming in, but this is kind of fucked. Who is going to cut lawns and do all the shitty jobs Americans won't do when they get sent back to Mexico?

[caveBEAR]

For all the people who say 'if you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about', I was 'pulled over' tonight while walking on a public sidewalk.

So, transplant my situation to a Hispanic guy in Arizona...


I mean, all they have to do is constantly keep their papers on them...and it would probably be best if they adhered to a curfew...but that in no way echoes a certain time period in a certain European country...no, not at all. :rolleyes:

[samsara]

For all the people who say 'if you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about', I was 'pulled over' tonight while walking on a public sidewalk.

So, transplant my situation to a Hispanic guy in Arizona...


I mean, all they have to do is constantly keep their papers on them...and it would probably be best if they adhered to a curfew...but that in no way echoes a certain time period in a certain European country...no, not at all. :rolleyes:

Thats what my teacher said today. He also said people might have to start sewing an american flag on their clothes or something like that.

[apsterling]

Not only is this bill horribly backwards and racist, which, regardless of your stance on immigration, I don't see how anyone can deny. It also may serve to destroy the economy in the Soutwest, depending on how "effective" it is.

Our economy is ALREADY pretty damn low considering this. If they pull out, the 10+% unemployment rate in the area might say something about filling the jobs they leave behind. It might take a while but in the long term it ought to improve the situation down here. Things like San Francisco threatening to pull out of AZ's economy are more of a useless threat than anything else, considering they're also screwed in economics, it's just a losing proposition.

[RX XR]

My father was in the exact same situation. Except the guy wasn't an illegal, he was a legal citizen who didn't have insurance. I know, crazy, right?

Your avatar has no place in a forum that has the potential the breed intelligent discussion. Fuck off.

Cool answer smart guy, too bad not one illegal has insurance, not to mention have a license to drive a vehicle in the first place. Horrible ass comparison, so no it's not crazy. Maybe if we didn't have ignorant douchebags such as yourself we could possibly breed some more intelligent discussion.