Ethnic Cleansing

[richter915]

In my opinion, it's the worst crime against humanity that can ever be committed. As much as I disagree with the policies in the US, I'm thankful that we'll never face the problems seen in Darfur, Nazi Germany, Cambodia, China at certain points...even what happened with Israel is scene as Ethnic Cleansing (removal of Palestinians from their homes through use of force)...When it comes down to it, the cultures may clash in the US but it'll never get to the point of organized removal.

[catscradle]

In my opinion, it's the worst crime against humanity that can ever be committed. As much as I disagree with the policies in the US, I'm thankful that we'll never face the problems seen in Darfur, Nazi Germany, Cambodia, China at certain points...even what happened with Israel is scene as Ethnic Cleansing (removal of Palestinians from their homes through use of force)...When it comes down to it, the cultures may clash in the US but it'll never get to the point of organized removal.

You tend to forget that thousands of jews have also been forcefully removed from their homesteads as well as palestinians. so, i don't think ethnic cleansing is the right term to use for that region. But overall, i agree that it will never get to that point here.

[boysdontcry17]

you forgot about the shitstorm in the balkans back when clinton was in office

[richter915]

You tend to forget that thousands of jews have also been forcefully removed from their homesteads as well as palestinians. so, i don't think ethnic cleansing is the right term to use for that region. But overall, i agree that it will never get to that point here.
I don't know how or why Jews would be removed from the area? I'd think they'd rather live in Israel but I can see it happening.

[richter915]

you forgot about the shitstorm in the balkans back when clinton was in office
there're tons...a lot that people probably don't even know about. I was never well-versed in what happened then...but that was the whole thing with Milosevic...was he trying to cleanse the area? if so, who was being removed?

[cal1082]

I don't know how or why Jews would be removed from the area? I'd think they'd rather live in Israel but I can see it happening.

happened last summer to jewish people in the Gaza Strip by the defenition of ethnic cleansing you are using.

[Rock]

even what happened with Israel is scene as Ethnic Cleansing
spend less time on absolutepunk, and more time in the classroom.

[richter915]

happened last summer to jewish people in the Gaza Strip by the defenition of ethnic cleansing you are using.
and prior to that Palestinians were removed from that region, right?

[richter915]

spend less time on absolutepunk, and more time in the classroom.
haha. Pretty funny. More time in the classroom tho? sure, whatever u say brother.

[cal1082]

and prior to that Palestinians were removed from that region, right?

and you can go back further that back to the israelites............

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Remember that time Suharto was killing Timorese with bombing planes the US gave him?
Remember that time Hussein was killing Kurds wiith chemcial weapons the US gave him?
Remember that time that there was a campaign of genocide in Darfur and the US did jack shit about it? Oh yea, thats still happening.

Im glad we aren having genocide on our dollar right now, but we're still not trying very hard to stop it.

[Justin_stacy]

and you can go back further that back to the israelites............



Not to mention that the stated goal of these terrorist groups (and the Arab world in general) is the utter elimination of the Jewish people......genocide. But of course this is not wrong because the Arabs only want to murder Jews to get back land that they don’t have anymore legal right to then the Jews, they are wanting to mass slaughter.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Not to mention that the stated goal of these terrorist groups (and the Arab world in general) is the utter elimination of the Jewish people......genocide. But of course this is not wrong because the Arabs only want to murder Jews to get back land that they don’t have anymore legal right to then the Jews, they are wanting to mass slaughter.


Dude, why the over the top rhetoric? You came SO close to making a valid point, but you had to toss in your ignorant comment about "the Arab world in general". Do you see nothing wrong with just grouping together an entire ethnic group and saying they have a "stated goal" of genocide?

Secondly, you're skewing the facts when you say the goal is the elimination of the Jewish people. I'm not going to deny that some extremists do want that. But not even all violent Arab groups want that, and I think very few non-violent Arab political organizations (and there are many of them) would validate that goal. Unfortunately, do to extremist Zionist policies, the choices of the Arab people are severely limited. Many just want Palestinians to e able to return to their homelands - but that would mean allowing Palestiniants to return to Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and so on, not just West Bank and Gaza. Israel claims that it can refuse the right of return, in order to preserve the "Jewish character of Israel". This means that the option of being for an Israeli state that allows a Palestinian right of return is off the table, and Arab groups are forced to choose "for Israel as it is now" or "against Israel entirely". Now, I don't think that at all justifies violence b terrorist groups, but it does add some perspective - it is Zionism that makes Arabs play the "for us or against us" game and snuffs out the possibility of moderate reforms, encouraging extremism. No one should be telling the Jews to leave their land, but at the same time, you can't say they have an "equal right" to it and support an Israeli regime that has brutally forced civilians off of those same lands, destroyed farms and orchards, assasinated community leaders, and so forth.

[Justin_stacy]

Dude, why the over the top rhetoric? You came SO close to making a valid point, but you had to toss in your ignorant comment about "the Arab world in general". Do you see nothing wrong with just grouping together an entire ethnic group and saying they have a "stated goal" of genocide? .

Dude because a thread that starts with a comparison between dafur and Israel's approach to hostilities kind of calls for it, no? Wouldn’t you say objectivity is pretty much thrown out the window when the basis for the thread is grounded in such absolute stupidity?
See this comes back to the problem with only reading one post and jumping to a conclusion.

Now to your question of course it wouldn't be fair to lump every Arab nation together, particularly when 3 nations have done the honorable thing and made peace with Israel. But to that same effect it is also foolish and counterproductive to act as though the destruction and elimination of Israel is not a strong (even dominating) force within the Arab world. Something’s can not just be candy coated over. When a group like Hezbollah has a 97% approval rate within Palestine and Hamas takes the Parliament, it makes it rather hard to say the extremist voice is not the voice of the people.

Secondly, you're skewing the facts when you say the goal is the elimination of the Jewish people. I'm not going to deny that some extremists do want that. But not even all violent Arab groups want that, and I think very few non-violent Arab political organizations (and there are many of them) would validate that goal. Unfortunately, do to extremist Zionist policies, the choices of the Arab people are severely limited. Many just want Palestinians to e able to return to their homelands - but that would mean allowing Palestiniants to return to Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and so on, not just West Bank and Gaza. Israel claims that it can refuse the right of return, in order to preserve the "Jewish character of Israel". This means that the option of being for an Israeli state that allows a Palestinian right of return is off the table, and Arab groups are forced to choose "for Israel as it is now" or "against Israel entirely". Now, I don't think that at all justifies violence b terrorist groups, but it does add some perspective - it is Zionism that makes Arabs play the "for us or against us" game and snuffs out the possibility of moderate reforms, encouraging extremism. No one should be telling the Jews to leave their land, but at the same time, you can't say they have an "equal right" to it and support an Israeli regime that has brutally forced civilians off of those same lands, destroyed farms and orchards, assasinated community leaders, and so forth.

Oh come on, the majority of the land in question is land gained from acts of war brought about by the Arab world. Should Poland be forced to return the Silesia territory to Germany? Of course not, so why is Israel expected to do what no other country in the world would be expected to do, and give back land acquired from hostilities brought on by others? This is not extremist Zionist policy, but the consequences of waging war. Palestinian’s lack of a homeland is self imposed, and although I agree that some concessions will have to be made by Israel to foster a future peace, the blame for the current problem does not rest solely on Israeli or any "extreme Zionist policy.” The UN Partition of 47, gave preferential treatment to the Arab community, they were given the more fertile land and access to water, while the Jews received swamps/marsh, bluffs and deserts. They were given the foundation for a productive nation, but they chose to side with the losing side in 3 consecutive wars, and there are consequences for that. So its out of the question to even assume that the Arab communities are going to get back the land allotted to them by the UN.

Attempting to ignore why Israel has taken this land and portraying the Palestinians as victims is foolish....

[Lueda Alia]

there're tons...a lot that people probably don't even know about. I was never well-versed in what happened then...but that was the whole thing with Milosevic...was he trying to cleanse the area? if so, who was being removed?
He was. It was the people of Kosovo/Albania that he was trying to remove from their land. It was pretty horrible - too many people were killed for simply being Albanian.

What's even worse is the fact that the big nations won't even give Kosovo their independence already. It's ridiculous.

[richter915]

not gonna quote ur whole post Justin but to clarify...I mentioned Darfur in the same place as what's happening in parts of the Mideast to show the extent of what some would classify as Ethnic Cleansing...it's ur idiotic attempt to try and make everything look like it's slanted to the left that fooled you.

[Justin_stacy]

left or right......its absurd (and cheaply political) to mention the palestinians in a similar context to the victims in darfur. That's just plain truth.

[catscradle]

left or right......its absurd (and cheaply political) to mention the palestinians in a similar context to the victims in darfur. That's just plain truth.

word.

[IAmNietzche]

For it... oh, I didn't read through the whole thread.

[richter915]

left or right......its absurd (and cheaply political) to mention the palestinians in a similar context to the victims in darfur. That's just plain truth.
How is it absurd? It is an example of ethnic cleansing. Yes, it's not murder but I'm trying to show that there doesn't need to be murder for it to be considered ethnic cleansing.

[Justin_stacy]

Its the context of your paragraph that is absurd, not your interpretation of the term ethnic cleasing.

[x togepi x]

spend less time on absolutepunk, and more time in the classroom.

haha

[richter915]

Its the context of your paragraph that is absurd, not your interpretation of the term ethnic cleasing.
alright. Understandable.

I just read up on the Armenian Genocide...ya pretty bad stuff and it was never once mentioned in my AP Global history class.

[ghostyouare]

In my opinion, it's the worst crime against humanity that can ever be committed. As much as I disagree with the policies in the US, I'm thankful that we'll never face the problems seen in Darfur, Nazi Germany, Cambodia, China at certain points...even what happened with Israel is scene as Ethnic Cleansing (removal of Palestinians from their homes through use of force)...When it comes down to it, the cultures may clash in the US but it'll never get to the point of organized removal.
America may have never participated in ethnic cleansing but we did participate in eugenics, that's almost as bad.

[richter915]

America may have never participated in ethnic cleansing but we did participate in eugenics, that's almost as bad.
what's eugenics? I dunno, you're refering to the Native Americans. There're definitely examples of large movements of the natives, but then again the Americans woulda done it to anyone who was here...but maybe they wouldn't if they came and found a bunch of WASPs...amazing example, I'm no longer an idiot.

[justinevans]

haha. Pretty funny. More time in the classroom tho? sure, whatever u say brother.

Yes, you cannot properly spell/type. It is seen

[justinevans]

and btw, we didn't aid in removing Africans not only from their homes, country, but also the entire continent and then make them do slave labor where the only end was death by labor or death by escape.

[catscradle]

what's eugenics? I dunno, you're refering to the Native Americans. There're definitely examples of large movements of the natives, but then again the Americans woulda done it to anyone who was here...but maybe they wouldn't if they came and found a bunch of WASPs...amazing example, I'm no longer an idiot.

eugenics dealt with the study of superiority of races over other races and looking into selective breeding programs. It's pretty much along the lines of the aryan philosophy of the nazis.

[catscradle]

America may have never participated in ethnic cleansing but we did participate in eugenics, that's almost as bad.

we weren't nearly as involved in eugenic programs asmany european countries were, so i don't think that can really be leveled against us. You have to remember at the inception of eugenics people believed it to be an actual science.

[ghostyouare]

Yes, you cannot properly spell/type. It is seen
He properly spelled scene right, he just used a homophone on accident. Why is everyone in the politics thread just a ***?

[xvszero]

I just felt like adding that it is ridiculous that the Isreal/Palestine thing was even mentioned in the context of Ethnic cleansing when many Palestinians live in Isreal without real trouble and many are even citizens of Isreal.

[richter915]

I just felt like adding that it is ridiculous that the Isreal/Palestine thing was even mentioned in the context of Ethnic cleansing when many Palestinians live in Isreal without real trouble and many are even citizens of Isreal.
oh word, it was discussed why it was a bad example earlier...check it out boy scout.

[richter915]

and btw, we didn't aid in removing Africans not only from their homes, country, but also the entire continent and then make them do slave labor where the only end was death by labor or death by escape.
there was further ethnic cleansing of blacks within South Africa under the Apartheid.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Dude because a thread that starts with a comparison between dafur and Israel's approach to hostilities kind of calls for it, no? Wouldn’t you say objectivity is pretty much thrown out the window when the basis for the thread is grounded in such absolute stupidity?
See this comes back to the problem with only reading one post and jumping to a conclusion.

Now to your question of course it wouldn't be fair to lump every Arab nation together, particularly when 3 nations have done the honorable thing and made peace with Israel. But to that same effect it is also foolish and counterproductive to act as though the destruction and elimination of Israel is not a strong (even dominating) force within the Arab world. Something’s can not just be candy coated over. When a group like Hezbollah has a 97% approval rate within Palestine and Hamas takes the Parliament, it makes it rather hard to say the extremist voice is not the voice of the people.



Oh come on, the majority of the land in question is land gained from acts of war brought about by the Arab world. Should Poland be forced to return the Silesia territory to Germany? Of course not, so why is Israel expected to do what no other country in the world would be expected to do, and give back land acquired from hostilities brought on by others? This is not extremist Zionist policy, but the consequences of waging war. Palestinian’s lack of a homeland is self imposed, and although I agree that some concessions will have to be made by Israel to foster a future peace, the blame for the current problem does not rest solely on Israeli or any "extreme Zionist policy.” The UN Partition of 47, gave preferential treatment to the Arab community, they were given the more fertile land and access to water, while the Jews received swamps/marsh, bluffs and deserts. They were given the foundation for a productive nation, but they chose to side with the losing side in 3 consecutive wars, and there are consequences for that. So its out of the question to even assume that the Arab communities are going to get back the land allotted to them by the UN.

Attempting to ignore why Israel has taken this land and portraying the Palestinians as victims is foolish....


I don't disagree with a lot of what you said. I'm fairly far to what could be called the "Pro-Palestine" side, but I'm not going to pretend that Palestine hasn't pursued some crappy goals. Also, a lot of the time I agree with their goals, but think they use the worst possible means to pursue them. That being said, your analysis of the land debates (which is pretty accurate overall but leaves out some important analysis of resources) isn't the same as what my post was discussing. I was simply saying that the idea that Israel must be a "Jewish state" has been used to keep Palestinians out of their homelands in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. The right of return has to be supported as a whole, not simply as a way of letting a few people back to a few areas. That is why so many oppose "the Jewish state" - because a state without a pre-inscribed ethnic identity could be more flexible in allowing people home, but too many powerful Israelis want to keep it a "Jewish state". Even if you think it's ok for Israel to have the land due to the wars, it's better for the epace and better on a humanitarian level if they are willing to compromise and allow a state that has a multi-ethnic population, rather than making racist laws that always favor Jews.

Other than that:

I totally agree that comparing Israel to Sudan is extra-strength crazy. But don't respond to crazy accusations with equally crazy ones. If more people can have level-headed discussions we can make these boards a lot better than they are now.

Also, I think that saying "spoils of war" type defenses justify Israel keeping Palestinian land is incorrect as a matter of international law. A state is only allowed to occupy the land they need to ensure the defeat of their enemy during war, and after all they have to return whatever land is not neccesary. Now, you might say that Israel needs a buffer between themselves and Palestine. That's fair, but I don't think it's realistic. Israel and Palestine are going to have to share a border somewhere, so it's not "neccesarry" for the border to be moved in any one direction, since moving the border can never stop the problem (since the problem is that there IS a shared border, not simply where its located). I strongly feel that the issue of territory needs to be resolved peacefully by the two states, though, and not by terrorist thugs from Palestine and an onveraggressive military from Israel. So I can understand why there isn't any immediate progress on that front.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

Oh, one other thing.

You shouldn't take the election of Hamas or support for Hezbollah as an automatic sign of extremism. Obviously a lot of their supporters are extremists. But Hamas and Hezbollah are both also hugeproviders of medical support, charity for the poor, and so on. Hezbollah has been very dilligent in helping Lebanon recover from it's current devastation (which is good of them, since they certainly didn't help anyone ine Lebanon by continuing to fight with the Israelis), which is another example of the type of stuff they do that makes them popular with less extreme citizens in the middle east.

[catscradle]

Oh, one other thing.

You shouldn't take the election of Hamas or support for Hezbollah as an automatic sign of extremism. Obviously a lot of their supporters are extremists. But Hamas and Hezbollah are both also hugeproviders of medical support, charity for the poor, and so on. Hezbollah has been very dilligent in helping Lebanon recover from it's current devastation (which is good of them, since they certainly didn't help anyone ine Lebanon by continuing to fight with the Israelis), which is another example of the type of stuff they do that makes them popular with less extreme citizens in the middle east.

During the great depression the italian mafia did the same thing. They catered to the people and gained a lot of support. They got corrupt people voted into office and established a firm place in society at the time by exploiting people's needs. So, basically what i'm getting at is just b/c they are doing good things for the people doesn't make them good and doesn't mean they are doing it in good spirit, if that makes sense.

[HeyCoffeeEyes]

During the great depression the italian mafia did the same thing. They catered to the people and gained a lot of support. They got corrupt people voted into office and established a firm place in society at the time by exploiting people's needs. So, basically what i'm getting at is just b/c they are doing good things for the people doesn't make them good and doesn't mean they are doing it in good spirit, if that makes sense.

Oh I completely agree. I was just trying to say that everyone who says, "Yeah Im cool with Hamas/Hezbollah" isn't neccisarily hellbent on destorying Israel, just as some people who siad, "Cool, the mafia rocks" weren't actually fans of assasinations and organized crime. They just see themselves as clients.

[catscradle]

Oh I completely agree. I was just trying to say that everyone who says, "Yeah Im cool with Hamas/Hezbollah" isn't neccisarily hellbent on destorying Israel, just as some people who siad, "Cool, the mafia rocks" weren't actually fans of assasinations and organized crime. They just see themselves as clients.

gotcha.

[richter915]

During the great depression the italian mafia did the same thing. They catered to the people and gained a lot of support. They got corrupt people voted into office and established a firm place in society at the time by exploiting people's needs. So, basically what i'm getting at is just b/c they are doing good things for the people doesn't make them good and doesn't mean they are doing it in good spirit, if that makes sense.
I wanna make a movie glorifying hezbollah. "the Allahfather"