let's talk about theory

[x togepi x]

okay, so on another forum i used to frequent, they were going to come up with a theory lesson on emo guitar but nothing ever came of it.

i think it'd be really cool if we did something like that here.

I realize that emo bands tend to use certain chords, like octaves and arpeggios but I'm not exactly sure what they look like written/tabbed out mainly because I usually sing for the bands I was in and my band now isn't really emo so it doesn't help matters.

I just think a thread like this could be cool because it'd make it easier to point out to new people what emo really is. I know everytime I get into the argument I say "genres are defined by theory" and while I understand how it sounds, I'm not sure I can explain it theoretically without anyone else's help.

if anyone's interested, we could start by listing the stuff that is common and then we can get someone to tab it out or whatever and I'll edit this post into a lesson. then we can reference it in the stickied thread as well as keep bumping it to the top.

i'll start.

some things we should cover:
1. octave chords
2. common scales
3. dynamics
4. chaotic elements (like what chords create this kind of dissonance)

maybe even major influences in lyrics/vocal styles.

it'd also be cool to have probably the first lesson on how to actually play emo on the internet.

[Blake Solomon]

this is an ambitious idea, i wish i could help with this, but i wouldnt mind learning

[x togepi x]

well i have a friend who isn't on AP that can help, but i won't be able to see till friday.

[Blake Solomon]

i might be able to help with lyrical styles and vocals but, not so much with the chords and things.

[SickOfStars]

simple octave chords:

if you know how to make a power chord, just mute the middle string and voila.

example:

E------------------------------
B------------------------------
G -------------5----------------
D -------------5-----------------
A -------------3-----------------
E------------------------------
this is a power chord on the second string

E------------------------------
B------------------------------
G -------------5----------------
D -------------x-----------------
A -------------3-----------------
E------------------------------
mute the middle string of the power chord and strum. mmmm octave chord.

note when using B string: in standard tuning it's off by a half step. if your root note is on the B string, form a power/octave chord and move the root note down 1 fret. If the higher note in the chord is on the B string, move up or down 1 fret. You will run into this a lot, as higher octave chords usually sound more 'intense' and are used more often in modern screamo. For good use (perhaps overuse) of octave chords, check out KAOSPILOT and ORCHID, as they are those bands' religion.

[Blake Solomon]

nice.

[deekismusic]

i know next to nothing about guitar, so more of this would be cool

[James Johnson]

simple octave chords:

if you know how to make a power chord, just mute the middle string and voila.

example:

E------------------------------
B------------------------------
G -------------5----------------
D -------------5-----------------
A -------------3-----------------
E------------------------------
this is a power chord on the second string

E------------------------------
B------------------------------
G -------------5----------------
D -------------x-----------------
A -------------3-----------------
E------------------------------
mute the middle string of the power chord and strum. mmmm octave chord.

note when using B string: in standard tuning it's off by a half step. if your root note is on the B string, form a power/octave chord and move the root note down 1 fret. If the higher note in the chord is on the B string, move up or down 1 fret. You will run into this a lot, as higher octave chords usually sound more 'intense' and are used more often in modern screamo. For good use (perhaps overuse) of octave chords, check out KAOSPILOT and ORCHID, as they are those bands' religion.

Dude I am gonna suck your brains out someday. The stuff you know about good music is amazing. Please contribute more on this kinda stuff.

[x togepi x]

yeah the octave post was exactly what I was looking for. more things like that.

[parallelism]

Yeah, power chords and octaves are basically the same in figure.

Many bands do shifts in scale thirds, fourths and fifths. Say that two guitarists are playing a matching figure, but one is playing a power chord and one is playing an octave. Together, it would basically sound like a power chord with emphasis on the root note of the chord. It would look like this (using SickOfStar's tab, thanks for posting that):

Guitar 1

E------------------------------
B------------------------------
G -------------5----------------
D -------------5-----------------
A -------------3-----------------
E------------------------------


Guitar 2

E------------------------------
B------------------------------
G -------------5----------------
D -------------x-----------------
A -------------3-----------------
E------------------------------


Both guitars would be playing the same rhythm. However, at a certain point in a certain measure, the second guitar (the one strumming an octave) would shift that octave up a few frets to the desired note in the scale, whereas the guitar playing the chord would play the same chord for the entire time. While the last chord would sound ugly paired with the octave, a lot of bands do this on purpose because it would add dissonance between the two parts and layer in a basic melody, and it would look like this:


Guitar 1

E--------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------
G ---5--------5--------5--------5----
D ---5--------5--------5--------5----
A ---3--------3--------3--------3----
E--------------------------------------


Guitar 2

E--------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------
G ---5--------9--------7--------4----
D ---x--------x--------x--------x---
A ---3--------7--------5--------2----
E--------------------------------------



Also, on the clean channel, guitar parts will tend to each be a different type of chord with the same root note. So say one chord structure looked like this:

E----0-----
B----7-----
G ---4-----
D ---6-----
A ---7-----
E----0-----


And the other looked like this:

E----0-----
B----0-----
G ---1-----
D ---2-----
A ---2-----
E----0-----

The first guitarist would pick each note of the chord separately and in a certain sequence. The second guitarist would do the same. They would be played so that they are never playing the same note at the same time. Since the root of the chord is the same, you just get a really weird type of harmony that is detectable by the ear on each separate note.

I only used major chord progressions in my examples, but it works the same way in minor progressions. If I was particularly bad at explaining anything, I can record each of my examples and send them to whoever wants to hear them to clarify what I mean, so if you want me to do that please feel free to say so.

Also just touching base on power chords again, say that you were in a dropped tuning, such as DADGBE (drop D tuning), playing a power chord on the three heaviest strings, instead of playing the root note on one string and the accompaniment notes two frets higher on the next two strings, you would play the same fret on all three strings since the bottom string is now a whole step lower.

This also means that an octave from your lowest string is now on the 5th fret of the A string, rather than the 7th fret as it would be played in standard.

[Blake Solomon]

Wow, parallelism, nice work. Im seriously impressed.

[parallelism]

Wow, parallelism, nice work. Im seriously impressed.

Thanks, hope I was some help. :)

[Blake Solomon]

Thanks, hope I was some help. :)


i actually just learned how to play the guitar based on that post.

[parallelism]

i actually just learned how to play the guitar based on that post.

Hahaha, great to hear.

[SickOfStars]

Time Sigs:

The 'Rollicking' Beat (heard all over the place, I'll upload an example later.):

Basically, you want to use 4/4 time (which is the most straight ahead time signiature, for the less musically literate, that's where you count 1-2-3-4 for each 'measure' and beat 3 is traditionally accented, usually with a snare hit.), but you want to use triplets (which are accented quarter notes (usually 1 count out of the 4 per measure) constantly. Triplets are quarter notes that have an extra fraction of a beat added on so basically you can only fit 3 per measure. it will give the song kind of a 'rolling' feel.
EXAMPLE: Orchid - A Visit from Dr. Goodsex

'Epic' 6/8

You can also use this dynamic in 3/4, though I will admit that for the most part 3/4 is a lot more awkward to use than 6/8 (the basic theory behind 6/8 is that you count '1-2-3-4-5-6' and beat 4 is accented. You can count '1-2-3' really fast if it's easier and just accent every other '1'). But basically, you want to do this slower than your usual driving 6/8 song and make sure to use lots of 'emotiona' and 'finite' sounding octave chord progressions. This technique is usually used at the end of longer emo songs and the vocals are usually a repeatead line (example: in Circle Takes the Square's 'Same Shade as Concrete', the lines "It's God Will Let the Flood Swell" and "There's so much hope buried underneath tragedy. It's the same shade as concrete" are used in refrain to add to the effect)

examples: Circle Takes the Square - The Same Shade as Concrete,

The 'Dissonant' Intro

Basically, use any time signiature you want, just make sure the riff switches off between tons of notes really fast and your drummer doesn't fall into a beat and just hits the snare and various symbols on every beat (while staying on time, if he falls out of time you will not get a cool chaotic intro, but actual 'noise' with no theory)

example: over half the songs on Orchid's 'Chaos Is Me',

The 'Destructive' 4/4

Basically, use 4/4. Fill the first measure of 4/4 with three triplet quarter notes (basically, you can only fit 3 in a measure). Make sure they are all the same chord (you can mute it or leave it open depending on whether you want a 'full out' sound, a 'held back' sound, or you'd like to combine the two to make a sort of dynamic based on the same riff.) In the second measure, just let another note ring out. You can use a variety of different things in the second measure. You can use a higher up octave chord (I find that a one string and three frets higher octave chord has a nice effect, then you can figure out the progression you want from an octave chord there), or a simple muted hit of all strings (depending on your distortion, that could create a nice little jolt of feedback), or anything else. After a few go throughs of that you can elaborate on the octave chord progression you were developing one at a time (if you chose method 1) or you can add something else to the riff, then start the whole riff over again, or segue into a different part of your song.

Example: The Very Beginning of 'We Saw the Umbrella Man' by L'antietam (not the best example, but I wanted to use a legitimate 'screamo' song), Raein - From 3 to 1 in 2 and 4. The BEST example of this is actually in a thursday song somewhere, but I'm not sure which one and I wish not to have the elitists all over me.

There are plenty more of these, these are just a few.

[SickOfStars]

i know next to nothing about guitar, so more of this would be cool

MOST of the straight up screamo (not post-rock induced stuff or Circle Takes the Square) isn't too difficult musically. Basically, there are some noodly picking parts that are hard, but it's all speed and staying in-time with your band mates that's hard as the music gets chaotic. It's mostly power and octave chords. I've been in a few bands but they've all lasted a week because people up here would rather play jam music (*le sigh*).

[OveriseFan]

Anything else I can help teach?

These are relative keys, but they're the most common, I think.

HOWEVER, you can't just say they're the same key. They're relative because they're the same note, but because the scale begins at G or E, that also means the notes go in different order.

G Major: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#
E Minor: E, F#, G, A, B, C, D

For example, a common progression is I VI V. So that would be in G Major: G, C, D

In E Minor it would be: Em, Am, Bm

And I hope that helps somehow...?

To change a key from major to minor, flat the 3rd and the 6th.

Example:

C Major: C, D, E, F, G, A, B
C minor: C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B

[parallelism]

Anything else I can help teach?

These are relative keys, but they're the most common, I think.

HOWEVER, you can't just say they're the same key. They're relative because they're the same note, but because the scale begins at G or E, that also means the notes go in different order.

G Major: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#
E Minor: E, F#, G, A, B, C, D

For example, a common progression is I VI V. So that would be in G Major: G, C, D

In E Minor it would be: Em, Am, Bm

And I hope that helps somehow...?

To change a key from major to minor, flat the 3rd and the 6th.

Example:

C Major: C, D, E, F, G, A, B
C minor: C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B


Yeah, that's correct.

I can see how that would confuse people who don't know anything about music theory yet, though. So for anybody who is familiar with scales but not note names/keys/etc, what he is basically saying is this:

If you're playing a major scale, the sixth note of that scale is where that key's relative minor scale begins. In essence, relative majors/minors are really on the same scale, it's just that starting from where the major scale begins would give you that major sound (positive emotion) and starting from where the minor scale begins would give you that minor sound (negative emotion).

It works the same way going minor to major, except that the relative major scale starts on the third note of the minor scale, rather than the sixth.

Most songs don't completely change key signatures, but many do switch from relative major to relative minor. In songs where the verse sounds sad and the chorus sounds happy (or vice versa) that is most likely what is happening musically. Don't get me wrong, there are lots of songs that stay in major or minor keys as well.

Then, there are also shifts from a major version of a scale to a minor version of a scale. This is different because you are actually changing the scale you're playing, as opposed to before, where you would only change the note of the scale you're beginning on. This type of change, for example, would be shifting from C major to C minor as OveriseFan showed above. This is not as common as shifting from relative major/relative minor.

There are also complete key shifts, where, for example, you would switch from C major to G major. The whole song would be shifting up a fifth. Musically, this is a lot more complicated when trying to get it to flow seamlessly. There are usually transitional notes, where in many cases, the melody would start to go higher than it had been previously, which would then be followed by the change in the chord or root note. This is also not as common as shifting from relative major/relative minor.

[OveriseFan]

Yeah, that's correct.

I can see how that would confuse people who don't know anything about music theory yet, though. So for anybody who is familiar with scales but not note names/keys/etc, what he is basically saying is this:

If you're playing a major scale, the sixth note of that scale is where that key's relative minor scale begins. In essence, relative majors/minors are really on the same scale, it's just that starting from where the major scale begins would give you that major sound (positive emotion) and starting from where the minor scale begins would give you that minor sound (negative emotion).

It works the same way going minor to major, except that the relative major scale starts on the third note of the minor scale, rather than the sixth.

Most songs don't completely change key signatures, but many do switch from relative major to relative minor. In songs where the verse sounds sad and the chorus sounds happy (or vice versa) that is most likely what is happening musically. Don't get me wrong, there are lots of songs that stay in major or minor keys as well.

Then, there are also shifts from a major version of a scale to a minor version of a scale. This is different because you are actually changing the scale you're playing, as opposed to before, where you would only change the note of the scale you're beginning on. This type of change, for example, would be shifting from C major to C minor as OveriseFan showed above. This is not as common as shifting from relative major/relative minor.

There are also complete key shifts, where, for example, you would switch from C major to G major. The whole song would be shifting up a fifth. Musically, this is a lot more complicated when trying to get it to flow seamlessly. There are usually transitional notes, where in many cases, the melody would start to go higher than it had been previously, which would then be followed by the change in the chord or root note. This is also not as common as shifting from relative major/relative minor.

Gatsby's changes key AND tempo a lot.

That's fun to do. haha.

I recommend trying to go half-time sometimes, which is just playing a beat slower, basically.

Example: Instead of 1 - 2 - 3 - 4

It would be

x - 1 - x - 2

So that the first beat is where the 2 is and so on.

[x togepi x]

you guys are great. this going a lot better than i thought.

[gobicamel]

MOST of the straight up screamo (not post-rock induced stuff or Circle Takes the Square) isn't too difficult musically. Basically, there are some noodly picking parts that are hard, but it's all speed and staying in-time with your band mates that's hard as the music gets chaotic. It's mostly power and octave chords. I've been in a few bands but they've all lasted a week because people up here would rather play jam music (*le sigh*).

Slightly off-topic, but do you happen to have any CTTS songs written out in tablature (bar Houdini Logic; I've got that one pretty much figured out)? I've been dying to learn to play some of their songs, but lack the skill to tab them out by ear.

Other than that, awesome topic.

[SickOfStars]

Slightly off-topic, but do you happen to have any CTTS songs written out in tablature (bar Houdini Logic; I've got that one pretty much figured out)? I've been dying to learn to play some of their songs, but lack the skill to tab them out by ear.

Other than that, awesome topic.

I can't tab by ear for shit, especially when it's something as chaotic as CTTS

[parallelism]

Slightly off-topic, but do you happen to have any CTTS songs written out in tablature (bar Houdini Logic; I've got that one pretty much figured out)? I've been dying to learn to play some of their songs, but lack the skill to tab them out by ear.

Other than that, awesome topic.

I can try it out soon.
I'm pretty good with my ear, just give me a few days and I'll post back.

[gobicamel]

It'd be much appreciated :)

[parallelism]

It'd be much appreciated :)

I can't find the songs anywhere.
I had them before, but I recently reformatted my computer so it's gone.

I don't have any p2p applications, so if you have a way to possibly get me the songs so I can tab them out for you, it'd be much appreciated.

Just pm me?

Also, I could just tab the myspace songs if you'd rather have me do that.
It might take a while though, because the drums and vocals drown out the guitar so much.

[heyRomanticA__x]

bump.

[x togepi x]

this thread needs bumped.

it was an awesome idea, i wish we could do more with it.

[SickOfStars]

someone should post vocal lessons on this. If you just scream with your throat you can really blow out your pipes.

I usually do vox for this sorta band but I don't know what else to say besides push from your diaphragm (chest...area...gut...maybe?) and put some slight throatiness into it so it's not just you yelling... yeah, see I can't explain it for shit.

[the thread]

someone should post vocal lessons on this. If you just scream with your throat you can really blow out your pipes.

I usually do vox for this sorta band but I don't know what else to say besides push from your diaphragm (chest...area...gut...maybe?) and put some slight throatiness into it so it's not just you yelling... yeah, see I can't explain it for shit.

yeah, we dont use mics, and if you blow your nodes, youre screwed...basically, you end up like jerome's dream. it cant be a scream from the throat, excatly, it has to be pushed from your chest, and then basically try to exert that with little pressure on yoru chords. some people get chaotic wails, some people get off the wall scary as shit screams, i get something almost like a sing/scream, but sounds almost like im crying....almost like hassan i sabbah or the saddest landscape almost. everyone is different when it comes to this, but like many vocal styles, almost anyone can emulate. but making it different is what makes it cool.


and Bob, definitely come to michigan and play with me, we would love to have you so much....plus, you know infintely more about music than i do.

[SickOfStars]

yeah, we dont use mics, and if you blow your nodes, youre screwed...basically, you end up like jerome's dream. it cant be a scream from the throat, excatly, it has to be pushed from your chest, and then basically try to exert that with little pressure on yoru chords. some people get chaotic wails, some people get off the wall scary as shit screams, i get something almost like a sing/scream, but sounds almost like im crying....almost like hassan i sabbah or the saddest landscape almost. everyone is different when it comes to this, but like many vocal styles, almost anyone can emulate. but making it different is what makes it cool.


and Bob, definitely come to michigan and play with me, we would love to have you so much....plus, you know infintely more about music than i do.

Haha, as tempting as that sounds, my studies, family, dearest friends, and girl are here in cold ol' New Hampshire. I do promise some music soon in the future. If everything goes according to plan, I'll have a project this Christmas break. Me and my two film/music loving dorky friends (who happen to be brothers that look exactly alike), Eldiso of She Died Real Pretty (and antietam song title fame), and a drummer (that's the only hitch so far) will be congregating to play some really film based screamo. Basically we're taking the film quotes concept of Graf Orlock and integrating it into some good old bipolar emotive hardcore. We intend to take mostly from campy horror movies (for example, we're planning on opening all sets with the broadcast from the beginning of the original texas chainsaw massacre), and promise to throw in a few other film goodies in there (we are saving a quote from a porn based on re-animator "Ugh I'm fucking a fucking zombie" for a good mid-song pause). As of now we're calling it "The Broken Vow" (after the converge song), but we'll more than likely come up with a goofy film-related name sooner or later. Look forward to hearing me shriek and cry very soon "LOLZ".

[chickendude]

LOLZ would make a great name!

And has anyone here recorded anything? I've recorded quite a few joking around type of things (all written/recorded within 15 minutes). We should create a topic to share some of the stuff we've written. If anything, it would be a good laugh.

One of the songs I'm more proud of:
"outside in the rain, i can see the bears
narcoleptically enraged
the spoon inside my mouth
shared spit with you [dinner and...]
while your bed shared its spit with me [...sex]
your mind is a drug, fucked
i hate drugs
i hate drugs
but alcohol is good!
but apocalypse cries inside the foam of your beer!

i'm watching you at the store
your eyes outside in the hands of some man's wife
watching you stare, watching your stare
i'm under the impression that you are too large
your face is mine cried sixteen times
my ears are sore
my feet are size 10
the stars are in my penis
and shooting at you
my penis, it hates you"

And as far as higher-pitched screaming goes, I'm not quite sure how to explain it but if you sing I guess above your falsetto (so that your voice isn't as 'breathy' as a falsetto voice is) your voice cracks easily. Not cracks as in puberty, but in the sense that it sounds like a nice, higher-pitched scream.

[SickOfStars]

LOLZ would make a great name!

And has anyone here recorded anything? I've recorded quite a few joking around type of things (all written/recorded within 15 minutes). We should create a topic to share some of the stuff we've written. If anything, it would be a good laugh.

One of the songs I'm more proud of:
"outside in the rain, i can see the bears
narcoleptically enraged
the spoon inside my mouth
shared spit with you [dinner and...]
while your bed shared its spit with me [...sex]
your mind is a drug, fucked
i hate drugs
i hate drugs
but alcohol is good!
but apocalypse cries inside the foam of your beer!

i'm watching you at the store
your eyes outside in the hands of some man's wife
watching you stare, watching your stare
i'm under the impression that you are too large
your face is mine cried sixteen times
my ears are sore
my feet are size 10
the stars are in my penis
and shooting at you
my penis, it hates you"

And as far as higher-pitched screaming goes, I'm not quite sure how to explain it but if you sing I guess above your falsetto (so that your voice isn't as 'breathy' as a falsetto voice is) your voice cracks easily. Not cracks as in puberty, but in the sense that it sounds like a nice, higher-pitched scream.

ah...yeah... the quotes are going to be humorous, but the music and lyrics are going to be dead serious. I haven't lyricized some of my writing as of yet, but a few little tasty cinnamon bits of the writing so far: (note, rough ramblings, haven't been refined)


I asked you to throw me a line
and I got a speech
and I'm caving in with the weight.
Let's see how far I can fall down
---------------------------------------

Sometimes they'd lock me in a room
for weeks at a time
but I'd never notice.
The wine always kept me silent and sedate.
Blind enough not to notice I was being slowly killed.
-----------------------------------------------------------

You're in love with a world that doesn't exist.
Holidays and warm rooms
long worn out and filed down by now.
With the haze of faces in mind
I'll make love to a world that doesn't exist
and paint a brand new sky over the drab grey
-------------------------------------------------------

My sympathy for you is wrong, but I can't help feeling
I stole your name face pursuits and most trusted friends.
We're polar opposites but isn't it funny how I'm walking
in your clothes and answering your calls as if I've always
been here. I've replaced you with my dry cracked smile
and awkward frame.
------------------------

If you avert your eyes
the crash you caused won't disappear.
He will always be there
entwined in trees of the wreckage.
Modern art or music to your ears.
and I will always be here to remind you.
I will haunt you.
I will hold you by your heart.
and shake you by your bones.
The ghost of what you let go
for dreams of concrete castles.
-----------------------------------

That was the worst mistake I made
and I hope to never see you again
but your spirit drifts by and threatens
to take everything I love
...from time to time
----------------------


...yeah, I do most of these at 4:30 or so in the morning or whenever I wake up in the middle of the night... and like I said...not refined yet.

[chickendude]

Wow, that reminds me quite a bit of the Spirit of Versailles. I'd love to hear them over music.

[the thread]

i would share, but im really not that keen on all of that, just yet, maybe itll change with time. we scream partly because of what we have to say. i know orchid said it best when they said, to an extent, that they write songs that make them want to scream, and thats basically the reason why. i also do because i quite frankly have a tough time putting myself out there in front of people lyrically.

[x togepi x]

i had a lot of post rock stuff recorded but i lost it with my laptop.

i have some lyrics though, somwhere in a notebook. i need to fidn it.

[chickendude]

It's so depressing browsing through the lyrics and poetry section here.

[TheBaroness]

ah...yeah... the quotes are going to be humorous, but the music and lyrics are going to be dead serious. I haven't lyricized some of my writing as of yet, but a few little tasty cinnamon bits of the writing so far: (note, rough ramblings, haven't been refined)


I asked you to throw me a line
and I got a speech
and I'm caving in with the weight.
Let's see how far I can fall down
---------------------------------------

Sometimes they'd lock me in a room
for weeks at a time
but I'd never notice.
The wine always kept me silent and sedate.
Blind enough not to notice I was being slowly killed.
-----------------------------------------------------------

You're in love with a world that doesn't exist.
Holidays and warm rooms
long worn out and filed down by now.
With the haze of faces in mind
I'll make love to a world that doesn't exist
and paint a brand new sky over the drab grey
-------------------------------------------------------

My sympathy for you is wrong, but I can't help feeling
I stole your name face pursuits and most trusted friends.
We're polar opposites but isn't it funny how I'm walking
in your clothes and answering your calls as if I've always
been here. I've replaced you with my dry cracked smile
and awkward frame.
------------------------

If you avert your eyes
the crash you caused won't disappear.
He will always be there
entwined in trees of the wreckage.
Modern art or music to your ears.
and I will always be here to remind you.
I will haunt you.
I will hold you by your heart.
and shake you by your bones.
The ghost of what you let go
for dreams of concrete castles.
-----------------------------------

That was the worst mistake I made
and I hope to never see you again
but your spirit drifts by and threatens
to take everything I love
...from time to time
----------------------


...yeah, I do most of these at 4:30 or so in the morning or whenever I wake up in the middle of the night... and like I said...not refined yet.

I like that a lot!

[xwisebuddhax]

alkaline trio does a lot of the mute the middle string stuff on Crimson, and whether you liked it or not, no denying it was a crafty album

[SickOfStars]

alkaline trio does a lot of the mute the middle string stuff on Crimson, and whether you liked it or not, no denying it was a crafty album

they're straight up octave chords. Pretty much every band in punk and rock uses them...

and don't get me wrong, Alkaline Trio is my favorite band, but they're pretty far from the genre being discussed here.

[the thread]

they're straight up octave chords. Pretty much every band in punk and rock uses them...

and don't get me wrong, Alkaline Trio is my favorite band, but they're pretty far from the genre being discussed here.


theyre pretty far from being interesting, anymore as well. the trio was one band i grew up on in high school, but after maybe ill catch fire, they went downhill. they just are a boring band now, i swear every song sounds the same. and matt ripping of danzig is just old and stupid. he needs to get a new shtick.

[noisecore]

this entire thread is futile, tonality was abolished more than a century ago

[the thread]

this entire thread is futile, tonality was abolished more than a century ago


yeah, i think it ended about the same time slavery did. go abe.

[chickendude]

Apparently people weren't happy with his decision to abolish tonality (hence his assassination).

[chickendude]

baby, im drowning.mp3 : (song from 9th grade, completely improv as seen by the "baby, I'm drowning" lines repeated for about 59 minutes)
http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=audio&file=baby__im_drowning.mp3 (http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=audio&file=baby__im_drowning.mp3)
DEATHERMETAL-revised.mp3 : (song I made a couple weeks ago when me and some guy were terribly bored. took like 15 minutes. it's terrible haha)
http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=audio&file=DEATHERMETAL_revised.mp3 (http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=audio&file=DEATHERMETAL_revised.mp3)
spaceysampletrip.mp3 : (messing around with various effects on my sound recorder thingy)
http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=audio&file=spaceysampletrip.mp3 (http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=audio&file=spaceysampletrip.mp3)
Sixpence None the Richer Cover- Avant Garden.mp3 : (siq sixpence none the richer cover. features: dual vocals (quadruple at the end!!), guitar (acoustic and later electric), clips from world of war craft, accordion, recorder, shitty recording!)
http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=audio&file=Sixpence_None_the_Richer_Cover __Avant_Garden.mp3 (http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=audio&file=Sixpence_None_the_Richer_Cover __Avant_Garden.mp3)
songiamworkingon.mp3 : (a song I started working on a few days ago. it's the only song I've ever worked on that wasn't improv ha)
http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=audio&file=songiamworkingon.mp3 (http://www.yourfilehost.com/media.php?cat=audio&file=songiamworkingon.mp3)

I APOLOGIZE FOR POSTING SUCH TERRIBLE SONGS

[IAmHolocaust]

simple octave chords:

if you know how to make a power chord, just mute the middle string and voila.

example:

E------------------------------
B------------------------------
G -------------5----------------
D -------------5-----------------
A -------------3-----------------
E------------------------------
this is a power chord on the second string

E------------------------------
B------------------------------
G -------------5----------------
D -------------x-----------------
A -------------3-----------------
E------------------------------
mute the middle string of the power chord and strum. mmmm octave chord.

note when using B string: in standard tuning it's off by a half step. if your root note is on the B string, form a power/octave chord and move the root note down 1 fret. If the higher note in the chord is on the B string, move up or down 1 fret. You will run into this a lot, as higher octave chords usually sound more 'intense' and are used more often in modern screamo. For good use (perhaps overuse) of octave chords, check out KAOSPILOT and ORCHID, as they are those bands' religion.
I'm such an idiot, but how would I mute the string?

[SickOfStars]

I'm such an idiot, but how would I mute the string?

cover it with a finger, but don't press down.

[IAmHolocaust]

cover it with a finger, but don't press down.
Thanks man! :-)

[chickendude]

Usually with your index finger or whatever is holding down the base note to the octave chord.

[the thread]

im bumping this thread, because my friend has basically created a breakdown of emo. its basically a structure that he created for songs, so that the listener and the reader will be able to understand the complexities going into some of this music. he's using this as a pitch to hopefully one day implement this into a music theory program and teach it like any other subject.

here is one of his examples, he used "its right where you said it would be" by jerome's dream. what he did, was he counted every beat in the song, or point of stress basically, and kept breaking it down into its most basic form. its sort of complicated and i cant explain it really well...but heres what it looks like:

Jerome’s Dream – Its Right Where You Said It Would Be

174/
104:70
36:16:36:16:70:18:16:18:18
8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:10:8:8:8: 10:8:10
6:2:6:2:6:2:6:2:4:4:4:4:6:2:6:2:6:2 :6:2:4:4:4:4:6:2:6:4:6:2:6:2:6:2:6: 4:6:2:6:4
3:3:2:3:3:2:3:3:2:3:3:2:4:4:4:4:3:3 :2:3:3:2:3:3:2:3:3:2:4:4:4:4:3:3:2: 3:3:4:3:3:2:3:3:2:3:3:4:3:3:2:3:3:4



listen to the song and follow along with the bottom line. it coincides with the structure and the beats of the song basically. here is another song he used to compare it to:




Michael Praetorius - Spangoletta

96/
24:24:24:24
6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6 :6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6
3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3 :3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3: 3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3 :3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3

if you compare the two, youll see that the JD song is anything but just noise. the breakdown switches back and forth, back and forth. with some 4:4:4:4 beat within. try to match it up...its pretty interesting, but im not too sure what hes trying to accomplish totally. he did this with a bunch of jenny piccolo songs as well.

dont ask me too much about it...he just explained it to me as well, so im not really in the know on this. but i thought it was fitting for this thread, so i posted it here.

[SickOfStars]

im bumping this thread, because my friend has basically created a breakdown of emo. its basically a structure that he created for songs, so that the listener and the reader will be able to understand the complexities going into some of this music. he's using this as a pitch to hopefully one day implement this into a music theory program and teach it like any other subject.

here is one of his examples, he used "its right where you said it would be" by jerome's dream. what he did, was he counted every beat in the song, or point of stress basically, and kept breaking it down into its most basic form. its sort of complicated and i cant explain it really well...but heres what it looks like:

Jerome’s Dream – Its Right Where You Said It Would Be

174/
104:70
36:16:36:16:70:18:16:18:18
8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:8:10:8:8:8: 10:8:10
6:2:6:2:6:2:6:2:4:4:4:4:6:2:6:2:6:2 :6:2:4:4:4:4:6:2:6:4:6:2:6:2:6:2:6: 4:6:2:6:4
3:3:2:3:3:2:3:3:2:3:3:2:4:4:4:4:3:3 :2:3:3:2:3:3:2:3:3:2:4:4:4:4:3:3:2: 3:3:4:3:3:2:3:3:2:3:3:4:3:3:2:3:3:4



listen to the song and follow along with the bottom line. it coincides with the structure and the beats of the song basically. here is another song he used to compare it to:




Michael Praetorius - Spangoletta

96/
24:24:24:24
6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6 :6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6:6
3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3 :3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3: 3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3 :3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3:3

if you compare the two, youll see that the JD song is anything but just noise. the breakdown switches back and forth, back and forth. with some 4:4:4:4 beat within. try to match it up...its pretty interesting, but im not too sure what hes trying to accomplish totally. he did this with a bunch of jenny piccolo songs as well.

dont ask me too much about it...he just explained it to me as well, so im not really in the know on this. but i thought it was fitting for this thread, so i posted it here.


you're a silly little panda. It's much better to rock out to JD and listen to the insightful recordings they use occasionally.

[the thread]

you're a silly little panda. It's much better to rock out to JD and listen to the insightful recordings they use occasionally.


oh, have no doubt. i rock out to JD as much as possible.

[SickOfStars]

oh, have no doubt. i rock out to JD as much as possible.

I love the quotes from the deranged little suicide boy and Einstein almost as much as I love their music

[lykdiscosupafly]

I saw this whole emo theory shpeal on the-n's message boreds. someone just copied and pasted it in.

[Iamhome]

I know this is a late bump, but please, anyone who knows about the bands in this genre, please post a list. Thank you. (i'm already listening to the ones mentioned here but I'd like to hear whatever else may be out there.)

P.S. I didn't post the genre because that would turn this forum like the other one...

[TheGhostOfPast]

i get something almost like a sing/scream, but sounds almost like im crying....almost like hassan i sabbah or the saddest landscape almost. everyone is different when it comes to this, but like many vocal styles, almost anyone can emulate. but making it different is what makes it cool.


Yeah, word. Our first show the other day, my mic was not on. Whole show. I was drumming and singing.

Quote this huge metal kid "We could hear you screaming from the back dude". I think there's no "proper" technique, but a lot of horrible bands that are doing the whole faux-scream thing, trying to walk between metal and emo, are going to fuck their voices permanently.

Good example of ridiculous vocals is Frail. Fucking intense, and I bet that dude can still talk properly.

My scream sounds like a wail / spoken sob. Hard to explain though I guess The Saddest Landscape would be a fair comparison in parts, if not View Of A Burning City / Elsamort.

[Mase714]

I'd love to better understand how to scream, cause when i do it now i get sore throats on occassion and my throat feels dry and gravely sometimes, which makes my screams crack.

[Nevuk]

A lot of the power of my screams personally comes from the cracking. But uh, I've taught a few people how to do it, this is how I tell them:
1. Talk, as loud as you can, like you're trying to talk over someone
2. Push your chest/diaphraigm inwards/upwards, forcing air out of your lungs. (Of course, exhaling powerfully)
Essentially, if you know what vocal projection is, its yelling while projecting.
Everything else is about finetuning that movement towards your sound (minus some tricks to get certain sounds). All the violence and tearing should come from the chest, not throat.
It usually takes a few tries, but its important to note that well done screaming uses
different vocal cords (there is a training video on it done by a vocal coach), I believe its called the false cord, but that was spoken and I didn't really understand, I think its the falsetto cord however.

Oh, and faux screaming, you mean inhale? Yeah that sucks and i mocked people i heard doing it in class one day, and told them to stop fucking up their throats.

[Nevuk]

I know this is a late bump, but please, anyone who knows about the bands in this genre, please post a list. Thank you. (i'm already listening to the ones mentioned here but I'd like to hear whatever else may be out there.)

P.S. I didn't post the genre because that would turn this forum like the other one...

I'll just list some of the bands that are very good that aren't really talked about enough.
Portraits of Past (On their 01010101 album)
Plunger
Don Martin Three
Hour of the Star
Embrace
Palatka
Moss Icon
Orchid
Raein
Pg.99


Uh... actually, Orchid Raein and Pg.99 we talk about plenty. PoP is...just classic, Plunger/hour of the star/DM3 are midwestmo, Palatka is emoviolence, Embrace + Moss Icon are first emo bands.

[Iamhome]

I'll just list some of the bands that are very good that aren't really talked about enough.
Portraits of Past (On their 01010101 album)
Plunger
Don Martin Three
Hour of the Star
Embrace
Palatka
Moss Icon
Orchid
Raein
Pg.99


Uh... actually, Orchid Raein and Pg.99 we talk about plenty. PoP is...just classic, Plunger/hour of the star/DM3 are midwestmo, Palatka is emoviolence, Embrace + Moss Icon are first emo bands.

Sweet... am I going to have to search for EP's and Albums to buy or are most of these streamed online (myspace/purevolume)?

[Nevuk]

Most of those you could only get off ebay or rare labels online if you wanted the physical label. You could get most of them from myspace and purevoluem, the midwest stuff and palatka are the exceptions to that.
http://www.myspace.com/portraitsofpast Is portraits of past, i'd have to search for the others.

[LendMeYourBrain]

E----0-----
B----7-----
G ---4-----
D ---6-----
A ---7-----
E----0-----

What chord/type of chord is this?

[Drumaster615]

how about time signatures? i have yet to hear any mainstream band play anything other than common time. odd time signatures are so fucking cool

[theguy77]

togepi, as i had said in our discussion about it in another thread, there's very little if anything that seperates entire genres of music theory-wise, let alone subgenres of subgenres of a genre. much of what has been mentioned in this thread gets used in pop-punk music among loaaadds of other rock subgenres, even though theres hardly anything else similar between pop-punk and emo.

[theguy77]

E----0-----
B----7-----
G ---4-----
D ---6-----
A ---7-----
E----0-----

What chord/type of chord is this?

its an E major chord with an added F#.

[bigmike]

This thread had a lot of promise. It should continue.

[AndrewIcex]

I have read through this whole thread, it definitely interests me... I only know a little theory and being a musician, it would definitely help to learn more... so we need to bring people in here to explain more!

[GuitarR0cker1]

This thread is cool.

Anyways I think it would be great if someone could explain scales and chord progressions in very simplistic terms for people who don't play instruments. I can't because I barely know this stuff myself haha.

[x togepi x]

i like that when i made this thread i was trying to play skramz and now i don't give a shit about doing that. i should make one about pedal boards for shoegaze.

[xhandgunxheart]

E----0-----
B----7-----
G ---4-----
D ---6-----
A ---7-----
E----0-----

What chord/type of chord is this?
E major 9

how about time signatures? i have yet to hear any mainstream band play anything other than common time. odd time signatures are so fucking cool
Zv8b6RPbnAc

I have read through this whole thread, it definitely interests me... I only know a little theory and being a musician, it would definitely help to learn more... so we need to bring people in here to explain more!
:wave: I've been studying theory for a while, and I will be taking AP music theory this year in school, so I'll try to answer everything I can.

This thread is cool.

Anyways I think it would be great if someone could explain scales and chord progressions in very simplistic terms for people who don't play instruments. I can't because I barely know this stuff myself haha.
A scale is "do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti". There are two "real" scales in classical theory: major and minor. Major is typically used for happy music, minor for sad/angry. Then there are the modes, which are basically the major scale starting on different notes (re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do, fa-so-la-ti-do-re-mi, etc.). There are obviously 7 (one for each scale degree), including the modal names for the major and minor scales.
Then you get into more modern, avant-garde scales. Basically, a scale is a scale until you repeat a note, so someone can make ANYTHING a scale.

Chords are built from the scale. A basic chord is 3 part harmony, consisting of the root, the third, and the fifth (do-mi-so), which is two thirds stacked on top of one another. From that you can see there are 7 chords in every key, and their quality (major/minor) depends on where in the scale they are (a major chord is a major third followed by a minor third, a minor chord is a minor third followed by a major third, and a diminished chord is a minor third followed by a minor third. augmented chords do not naturally appear in this scale, but they are a major third followed by a major third). In a major scale, the chords go major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, diminished (or I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii*). There are a lot of generic progressions (I-IV-V, I-V-vi-IV, just to name two), and then classical theory outlines rules to make good sounding chord progressions blah blah blah blah. Basically, using the chords that are naturally found in the scale, it will usually sound good. Oh, and diminished chords add tension.

I hope that wasn't too hard to understand. Specific questions might be easier to answer if you have any.

[AndrewIcex]

E major 9


Zv8b6RPbnAc


:wave: I've been studying theory for a while, and I will be taking AP music theory this year in school, so I'll try to answer everything I can.


A scale is "do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti". There are two "real" scales in classical theory: major and minor. Major is typically used for happy music, minor for sad/angry. Then there are the modes, which are basically the major scale starting on different notes (re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do, fa-so-la-ti-do-re-mi, etc.). There are obviously 7 (one for each scale degree), including the modal names for the major and minor scales.
Then you get into more modern, avant-garde scales. Basically, a scale is a scale until you repeat a note, so someone can make ANYTHING a scale.

Chords are built from the scale. A basic chord is 3 part harmony, consisting of the root, the third, and the fifth (do-mi-so), which is two thirds stacked on top of one another. From that you can see there are 7 chords in every key, and their quality (major/minor) depends on where in the scale they are (a major chord is a major third followed by a minor third, a minor chord is a minor third followed by a major third, and a diminished chord is a minor third followed by a minor third. augmented chords do not naturally appear in this scale, but they are a major third followed by a major third). In a major scale, the chords go major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, diminished (or I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii*). There are a lot of generic progressions (I-IV-V, I-V-vi-IV, just to name two), and then classical theory outlines rules to make good sounding chord progressions blah blah blah blah. Basically, using the chords that are naturally found in the scale, it will usually sound good. Oh, and diminished chords add tension.

I hope that wasn't too hard to understand. Specific questions might be easier to answer if you have any.

YOU are the man. Thank you.

[xhandgunxheart]

YOU are the man. Thank you.
:-) No problem. I was super excited when I saw this thread because I love theory. I'm like a music nerd.

[AndrewIcex]

:-) No problem. I was super excited when I saw this thread because I love theory. I'm like a music nerd.
Haha what do you play?

[xhandgunxheart]

Haha what do you play?
Guitar is my primary instrument, but I also play bass and keyboards (mostly synth) here and there. And I sing.

[AndrewIcex]

Guitar is my primary instrument, but I also play bass and keyboards (mostly synth) here and there. And I sing.
So do you hate tabs? I notice a lot of musicians who know theory and reading music, hate tabs. Do you?

[xhandgunxheart]

So do you hate tabs? I notice a lot of musicians who know theory and reading music, hate tabs. Do you?
I'm a terrible sight reader, so no. I learn rock songs and stuff from tabs or by ear, but when it comes to Jazz, I much prefer sheet music.

[Praetor]

i like that when i made this thread i was trying to play skramz and now i don't give a shit about doing that. i should make one about pedal boards for shoegaze.
I would read this.

[bard]

i like that when i made this thread i was trying to play skramz and now i don't give a shit about doing that. i should make one about pedal boards for shoegaze.
shoegaze, huh? do you have a link to check out some of your stuff?

[11:11]

This thread was quite the interesting read. Kinda surprised you guys didn't go into 7th chords at all though, 'cause I hear those a lot.

[AndrewIcex]

I'm a terrible sight reader, so no. I learn rock songs and stuff from tabs or by ear, but when it comes to Jazz, I much prefer sheet music.
I usually do by watching someone play it once and I have it... like I play Bass and I watch my guitarists and drummer play it once or twice and I usually never forget it... I use tabs when trying to learn other songs but even then I can hear it and usually play it.

I wish I could read sheet music better.

[x togepi x]

I would read this.

i spend a lot of time reading the uk shoegaze forum's gear section solely because of that, that and guitargeeks.

shoegaze, huh? do you have a link to check out some of your stuff?

not yet, i am in the beginning stages of putting something together. all i have are skeletons that i wrote on an acoustic guitar, which obviously isn't shoegaze yet. i'm trying to decide what direction to go. i can't decide if i want to do the super loud MBV style or the more subdued slowdive one or just the pop music with noise over the top like jesus and mary chain or all the bands ripping them off.

[bard]

i spend a lot of time reading the uk shoegaze forum's gear section solely because of that, that and guitargeeks.



not yet, i am in the beginning stages of putting something together. all i have are skeletons that i wrote on an acoustic guitar, which obviously isn't shoegaze yet. i'm trying to decide what direction to go. i can't decide if i want to do the super loud MBV style or the more subdued slowdive one or just the pop music with noise over the top like jesus and mary chain or all the bands ripping them off.
ok, if you can remember send me a message or something when you have some stuff online.

[Animalhill]

how about time signatures? i have yet to hear any mainstream band play anything other than common time. odd time signatures are so fucking cool
For some fucked up reason, 5/4 feels more natural to me than 4/4. Most of my bands songs include more than one time sig.
www.myspace.com/hammerhandsmusic (http://www.myspace.com/hammerhandsmusic)

[love_american_style]

note when using B string: in standard tuning it's off by a half step. if your root note is on the B string, form a power/octave chord and move the root note down 1 fret. If the higher note in the chord is on the B string, move up or down 1 fret. You will run into this a lot, as higher octave chords usually sound more 'intense' and are used more often in modern screamo. For good use (perhaps overuse) of octave chords, check out KAOSPILOT and ORCHID, as they are those bands' religion.

i use this constanly in both my bands.

[ThemChains]

This is a really good thread. However, I have nothing to add as I know nothing about music theory or how to read/write music. Everyone in my band is self taught and we just play.

[x togepi x]

ok, if you can remember send me a message or something when you have some stuff online.

oh yeah definitely. i'm sure i'll post about it when it gets started. i hope it's like kid a meets mbv/slowdive. so hipster as fuck. i totally changed my mind after reading an essay in Radiohead and Philosophy

[Matt Chylak]

this thread should be around more.

i've noticed in a lot of acoustic "emo" songs, there's a tendency to leave the third frets of the B and e string held down (like this):

e--------------3----------------
B------------- 3----------------
G ------------------------------
D ------------------------------
A -----------------------------
E------------------------------

that's a really good base for a lot of simple chord progressions, especially useful for weak guitar players. you can get:

e---------------3----------------
B---------------3----------------
G --------------0---------------
D --------------0---------------
A --------------0--------------
E---------------3--------------

Gsus2

e--------------3----------------
B------------- 3----------------
G -------------0----------------
D -------------2----------------
A -------------2---------------
E--------------0---------------

Em7

e--------------3----------------
B--------------3----------------
G -------------0----------------
D -------------2-----------------
A -------------3--------------
E------------------------------

Cadd9

e--------------3----------------
B--------------3----------------
G -------------2---------------
D -------------0---------------
A -----------------------------
E------------------------------

Dsus4

a few examples of this styling are in dashboard confessional songs, but you'll see them reoccur quite often if you go to tabs often enough.

[flks511]

This probably would go better in the musician forum.

[Indoor Living]

I've taken four music theory classes, so if anyone really needs help on anything, I'm willing to give tips.

[richter915]

want to bump

what's the best way to pick out a chord progression? I write plenty of great riffs and melodies but I can't seem to nail a decent progression below it. Also, we should discuss chord voicings since that plays a huge role in music.