Religion

[The_Blackout94]

So yeah I heard this is a touchy subject.
I am completely atheist. I do not believe in god, or any other religious thing whatsoever. I do, however, respect other people's views on the matter and will not preach to them about my views.
What are you views on it and that?

[Sean Rizzo]

So yeah I heard this is a touchy subject.
I am completely atheist. I do not believe in god, or any other religious thing whatsoever. I do, however, respect other people's views on the matter and will not preach to them about my views.
What are you views on it and that?
To put it simply: http://www.mormon.org

[Manicapathy]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_g3YUxj9bf7U/SN2Y-J3NmAI/AAAAAAAAAhw/t7Sk7GeJ7UY/s400/religionfail

Religion does a lot of good for many around the world.......but it also brings out the inner retard in roughly twice as many.

[terror_91]

I don't give a fuck what you believe as long as you don't try and preach it to me.

[Sean Rizzo]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_g3YUxj9bf7U/SN2Y-J3NmAI/AAAAAAAAAhw/t7Sk7GeJ7UY/s400/religionfail

Religion does a lot of good for many around the world.......but it also brings out the inner retard in roughly twice as many.
FAIL.

I'd say religion doesn't affect one's stupidity either way. I have a feeling if the person quoted in that paper were atheist, they'd make some equally retarded comment regarding religion, e.g. Christ being burned at the stake instead of crucified.

[bung]

Religion doesn't deserve to be respected, only tolerated. Hopefully it will eventually go away.

[Sean Rizzo]

Religion doesn't deserve to be respected, only tolerated. Hopefully it will eventually go away.
Neither do elitist jerks who say things such as these.

[Manicapathy]

FAIL.

I'd say religion doesn't affect one's stupidity either way. I have a feeling if the person quoted in that paper were atheist, they'd make some equally retarded comment regarding religion, e.g. Christ being burned at the stake instead of crucified.

That's kinda what I was getting at....bad wording, I suppose. I just think, ideally, people like that wouldn't be so outspoken if they didn't concern themselves with such lofty ideas regarding life and death, etc.

[Sean Rizzo]

That's kinda what I was getting at....bad wording, I suppose. I just think, ideally, people like that wouldn't be so outspoken if they didn't concern themselves with such lofty ideas regarding life and death, etc.
I wouldn't say that, either. I've met just as many obnoxious and outspoken atheists/agnostics as I have obnoxious and outspoken believers. Like I said, this stuff would apply no matter what faith you have, if you're the type of person to act that way.

Kind of like the last person I quoted before you... :rolleyes:

[terror_91]

FAIL.

I'd say religion doesn't affect one's stupidity either way. I have a feeling if the person quoted in that paper were atheist, they'd make some equally retarded comment regarding religion, e.g. Christ being burned at the stake instead of crucified.
There is a difference between a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of evolution and a misunderstanding of a story.

You are right that people shouldn't generalized though.

[Sean Rizzo]

There is a difference between a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of evolution and a misunderstanding of a story.

You are right that people shouldn't generalized though.
I get the difference, but my point was they're equally as retarded and show complete lack of comprehension. lolz.

[bung]

Neither do elitist jerks who say things such as these.

What if I said my religion holds that the universe was created by a giant anus that crapped out all the planets and stars.

Should that belief be respected?

Kind of like the last person I quoted before you... :rolleyes:

Difference being that I don't actually go out and preach to anyone, nor push my beliefs on anyone. I'm just posting on the fucking internet, which is a far cry from what some religious fundamentalists do.

[Sean Rizzo]

What if I said my religion holds that the universe was created by a giant anus that crapped out all the planets and stars.

Should that belief be respected?
Of course, assuming that's what you genuinely believe. I might find it ludicrous (aka scientology), but I'm not gonna rag on you for believing it or say that the beliefs important to you should "eventually go away".

[bung]

Of course, assuming that's what you genuinely believe.

Hahahaha. Hahahahahahhahahaha. Please. Hahahahahaha. You're silly.

[Sean Rizzo]

Difference being that I don't actually go out and preach to anyone, nor push my beliefs on anyone. I'm just posting on the fucking internet, which is a far cry from what some religious fundamentalists do.
Also, "pushing beliefs" is why I try to stay away from religious debates, where people are looking to actively prove something that can only be proved subjectively and individually. But I will say that spreading a message is important, because that can change someone's life for the better, if they so decide to accept it.

[Sean Rizzo]

Hahahaha. Hahahahahahhahahaha. Please. Hahahahahaha. You're silly.
Silly, but respectful. :-)

[bung]

Silly, but respectful. :-)

I'm assuming you think slavery and racism are awful. Yet, if someone suddenly declares them to be central tenets of their religion, those things should be respected?

[bridgeofeldin]

i believe in God and have my own personal beliefs. I don't believe in a God of bigotry or hatred, so I denounce anything such as radical islamic fundamentalism or the westboro baptist church. I think humans exist solely out of God's love for us, and I think he has different ways of revealing himself to people. Therefore, I don't believe one religion is superior to another. As long as that religion's law is founded in a moral code, and differentiates between just and unjust laws, I say it's a positive thing.

[Sean Rizzo]

I'm assuming you think slavery and racism are awful. Yet, if someone suddenly declares them to be central tenets of their religion, those things should be respected?
The right to believe what you want should be respected, but not to practice what you want in some cases. That's what I was trying to get at earlier. Again, believing in such things is abhorrent, but I'm not going to take their right to believe what they want.

[bung]

The right to believe what you want should be respected, but not to practice what you want in some cases. That's what I was trying to get at earlier.

I agree that the right to believe anything should be respected. However, that is different from respecting the beliefs themselves.

[Sean Rizzo]

I agree that the right to believe anything should be respected. However, that is different from respecting the beliefs themselves.
Oh, then I misinterpreted your statement and we agree. haha. Although, I would argue that it's moral to be respectful toward others despite your thoughts on it, but that's just me.

[CobraLucha]

I thought I was an atheist when I used to be badass at 14. But then I realized what a stupid idea that was, so I did my reading and discovered that I am actually an agnostic.

Worthless info

[LastDeclaration]

I agree that the right to believe anything should be respected. However, that is different from respecting the beliefs themselves.

you don't respect the beliefs of the major religions? you don't respect morality?

[LastDeclaration]

I thought I was an atheist when I used to be badass at 14. But then I realized what a stupid idea that was, so I did my reading and discovered that I am actually an agnostic.

Worthless info

i think this happens to just about every intelligent person in their teenage years.

[Sean Rizzo]

i think this happens to just about every intelligent person in their teenage years.
Are you insinuating religious teenagers aren't intelligent?

[LastDeclaration]

Are you insinuating religious teenagers aren't intelligent?

no, i'm actually a Catholic, but i went through that phase as well. i think 90% of intelligent teenagers go through a phase where they question the ideas of religion and God and lean towards atheism, especially if they were brought up in a religious family, and especially, especially in a fundamentalist family. it's really disturbing to your faith when you realize that the supposed faith authorities have been teaching allegories to you as historical fact.

[BornUnderPunches]

Religion has helped many people around the world individually. I know many people who find hope and love in religion and they are most certainly a better person with it. I think the public just tries too hard to find the facts and truths in religions instead of focusing on what it really means to be a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim etc. Many people look at Jesus and debate whether he was the son of God or not, while what they should be doing is focusing on Jesus' morality, how he cared for the poor and sick and loved everybody no matter what. And that he stood up against the Roman Empire, which is officially badass.

[Sean Rizzo]

no, i'm actually a Catholic, but i went through that phase as well. i think 90% of intelligent teenagers go through a phase where they question the ideas of religion and God, especially if they were brought up in a religious family, and especially, especially in a fundamentalist family.
Oh, ok. I thought you might have meant that. I'm just used to seeing people say things like this in a pointed nature. My bad. And I'm kinda stating the obvious here, but, questioning religion for yourself is necessary. Without that, you can't ever determine what the truth is.

[BornUnderPunches]

no, i'm actually a Catholic, but i went through that phase as well. i think 90% of intelligent teenagers go through a phase where they question the ideas of religion and God and lean towards atheism, especially if they were brought up in a religious family, and especially, especially in a fundamentalist family. it's really disturbing to your faith when you realize that the supposed faith authorities have been teaching allegories to you as historical fact.

This this and this. I've always thought that if you don't question your character, then how are you supposed to grow as a human being? (rhitorical question btw)

[LastDeclaration]

Oh, ok. I thought you might have meant that. I'm just used to seeing people say things like this in a pointed nature. My bad. And I'm kinda stating the obvious here, but, questioning religion for yourself is necessary. Without that, you can't ever determine what the truth is.

yeah, i understand; these forums are full of disgruntled atheists that love shitting on Christians. and absolutely, that's exactly what i'm saying.

[Sean Rizzo]

yeah, i understand; these forums are full of disgruntled atheists that love shitting on Christians. and absolutely, that's exactly what i'm saying.
I don't mind if they try to disprove the existence of God to me, but that doesn't give them the right to mock or insult me for believing what I believe, like a lot of them do. But hey, they figure it doesn't matter since they lack a moral compass and don't believe in God or an ultimate consequence to their actions, so they decide they can be jerks anyway.

[vivatoto56]

I'd be ok with religion if it didn't ruin bands with potential.

[LastDeclaration]

I don't mind if they try to disprove the existence of God to me, but that doesn't give them the right to mock or insult me for believing what I believe, like a lot of them do. But hey, they figure it doesn't matter since they lack a moral compass and don't believe in God or an ultimate consequence to their actions, so they decide they can be jerks anyway.

Hahah, you articulated my thoughts on them perfectly.

[terror_91]

Religion has helped many people around the world individually. I know many people who find hope and love in religion and they are most certainly a better person with it. I think the public just tries too hard to find the facts and truths in religions instead of focusing on what it really means to be a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim etc. Many people look at Jesus and debate whether he was the son of God or not, while what they should be doing is focusing on Jesus' morality, how he cared for the poor and sick and loved everybody no matter what. And that he stood up against the Roman Empire, which is officially badass.
How is it moral to publish a book of stories as fact?

Religion is shaped by people. People are evil. Therefore, religion is evil.

You speak about morals but I would like you to provide an objective way to prove that your morals are superior to mine. Why is it that you think that what you believe to be moral is? Values have been created by humans (mainly men), they are not something that are found in nature.

[Sean Rizzo]

I'd be ok with religion if it didn't ruin bands with potential.
LOL, I hate it when bands preach. i don't mind inspirational lyrics, but I don't want to be rocking out to a sermon. lolz. I find that Relient K finds the balance pretty well with this. They praise God in their songs but it's very subjective to interpretation.

Hahah, you articulated my thoughts on them perfectly.
You're welcome. =D

[Sean Rizzo]

How is it moral to publish a book of stories as fact?

Religion is shaped by people. People are evil. Therefore, religion is evil.

You speak about morals but I would like you to provide an objective way to prove that your morals are superior to mine. Why is it that you think that what you believe to be moral is? Values have been created by humans (mainly men), they are not something that are found in nature.
Large assumption here, sir. I believe the opposite.

[terror_91]

Large assumption here, sir. I believe the opposite.
Which is why you are an idiot.

All you have to do is look at the systemic child abuse within the church and my point is proved.

[Sean Rizzo]

Which is why you are an idiot.

All you have to do is look at the systemic child abuse within the church and my point is proved.



See, LD? SEE? =P I knew it wouldn't take long.

And for the record, I'm not a catholic, so I'll leave that to my catholic counterpart in this thread.

[tottivillarossi]

How is it moral to publish a book of stories as fact?

Religion is shaped by people. People are evil. Therefore, religion is evil.

You speak about morals but I would like you to provide an objective way to prove that your morals are superior to mine. Why is it that you think that what you believe to be moral is? Values have been created by humans (mainly men), they are not something that are found in nature.
I disagree with your statement of "people are evil".

[terror_91]

See, LD? SEE? =P I knew it wouldn't take long.
I knew it wouldn't take long before you attack me instead of trying to disprove what I said.

[vivatoto56]

LOL, I hate it when bands preach. i don't mind inspirational lyrics, but I don't want to be rocking out to a sermon. lolz. I find that Relient K finds the balance pretty well with this. They praise God in their songs but it's very subjective to interpretation.


You're welcome. =D

It's not 100% the preaching that bothers me (it's a big part of it) but I just don't like the idea of a band putting limitations on themselves. Especially if they are part of a christian label who won't release an album unless it fits their parameters.

I agree with you though, Relient K definitely found a way to rise above all the others.

[terror_91]

I disagree with your statement of "people are evil".
People are definitely evil. How can you have an optimistic view of humans?

[tottivillarossi]

People are definitely evil. How can you have an optimistic view of humans?
Because I'm a people, and, while I'm many, many things, I am most certainly NOT evil. Yes, there are perverts and rapists, but I wouldn't define the entire human race based on those persons. If I was to do that, it'd technically make me one of them.

[Sean Rizzo]

It's not 100% the preaching that bothers me (it's a big part of it) but I just don't like the idea of a band putting limitations on themselves. Especially if they are part of a christian label who won't release an album unless it fits their parameters.

I agree with you though, Relient K definitely found a way to rise above all the others.
The praising God isn't the bad part, it's when they make it so that the interpretation is no longer somewhat subjective as to the meaning of the song when it becomes annoying.

[Memphis]

I believe that being religious shows weakness, I believe that the main reason for every religion is the fear of death, I also believe that the whole concept of religion is outdated a will eventually fade away or be replaced by a more complex view of the universe...

I live in one of the most atheistic countries in thee world and I'm glad for it, that being said, I have many christian friends and I respect their opinions as long as they respect mine...

[Sean Rizzo]

I knew it wouldn't take long before you attack me instead of trying to disprove what I said.
I attacked you? Do enlighten me as to how. Pretty sure you're the one who called me the idiot, bud.

[vivatoto56]

The praising God isn't the bad part, it's when they make it so that the interpretation is no longer somewhat subjective as to the meaning of the song when it becomes annoying.

"Lord I will be anything for you.

Hallelujah, I've been saved by grace,
Hallelujah, saved by grace.
and this is why, I've been saved,
by His grace."

Haha like that?

[vivatoto56]

People are definitely evil. How can you have an optimistic view of humans?

You're scary and bitter.

[Sean Rizzo]

"Lord I will be anything for you.

Hallelujah, I've been saved by grace,
Hallelujah, saved by grace.
and this is why, I've been saved,
by His grace."

Haha like that?
Basically, lol. Hymns are good for worshiping what you believe, but because of writing rock songs like hymns in this way it restricts the market. haha. Nothing wrong with it, though. It's just dumb economics. (BECAUSE NOT EVERY CHRISTIAN DENOMINATION BELIEVES IN BEING SAVED BY GRACE ALONE!! ;D)

[LastDeclaration]

How is it moral to publish a book of stories as fact?

Religion is shaped by people. People are evil. Therefore, religion is evil.

You speak about morals but I would like you to provide an objective way to prove that your morals are superior to mine. Why is it that you think that what you believe to be moral is? Values have been created by humans (mainly men), they are not something that are found in nature.

1) Not true. Before Christianity even existed, the rabbis knew that the Old Testament is pretty much all allegory. It's not being published as fact; it's the fundamentalist morons (who really make up a minority of the whole) that actually believe that the Bible is history, and their views are made out to represent the whole. Yes, the Vatican does maintain that some obviously false stories are true, but that's all just politics. No real Christian really gives a fuck about the pope or the higher, political parts of the Church. The political structure is a relic of the past, although it probably is necessary too. In any case, they're just old men in Italy.

2) lol

3) You're stating the view of nihilism, which is legitimate if God doesn't exist. If God exists, one could say that he imbued us with a conscience to discern morality for ourselves, and he provides the standard for our system of values. Also, the view you're embracing makes anything okay, e.g. murder is acceptable. That's pretty retarded.

I'm guessing this is all going to go to waste on you though.

Religion has done far more good than any evil you could ever attribute to it, particularly in modern times.

[Nick Le]

So yeah I heard this is a touchy subject.
I am completely atheist. I do not believe in god, or any other religious thing whatsoever. I do, however, respect other people's views on the matter and will not preach to them about my views.
What are you views on it and that?

I'm not particular to any denomination of Christianity or to any other religion, but I will say that I believe in God and am pro-Jesus and I have my own beliefs. As to what you just said, I respect that and respect people like you that have respect for other's beliefs and don't try to preach or denounce somebody's beliefs. Here's an internet high five for you, haha.

[drevans18]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_g3YUxj9bf7U/SN2Y-J3NmAI/AAAAAAAAAhw/t7Sk7GeJ7UY/s400/religionfail

Religion does a lot of good for many around the world.......but it also brings out the inner retard in roughly twice as many.

you pretty much summed up what i was going to say. and you did it better, because of that picture.

[barkingincision]

religion is rooted in ancient traditions. tradition is carried down through the ages, and subsequently is assumed by those who believe in it. there's nothing wrong with this, believing and having a religious upbringing, that is. that's the basis of it.

as long as you can believe while truly toleratiing others, and by tolerating, i mean understanding other religions and pairing it with your own, with science, with evolutionist theory, with the universe, and weigh it alongside what you believe, that is tolerance. as long as you question everything, respectfully and keeping an open mind, you are doing the right thing. that's more or less my belief.
and from my experience in doing all of this (and i still do) it's my belief that there is no God, or Gods, life is just life. that's not to say one can't have a spirit or a soul, though those things to me, are conscious embodiments within the makeup of human science.

[The Summer Ends]

in order from oh my god what the actual fuck to ugh you are annoying, fundamentalists go like:
1. radical muslims who bomb shit
2. uppity atheists who are douchebags on the internet when in real life they are total failures
3. jerk christians who won't listen to anything you say if it contradicts their beliefs
4. other

i'm mennonite so i get lots of shit

[Max_123]

The only real problem i have with religon are the people who believe 100% there religon is the best, and that if you don't have the same beliefs you're automatically going to hell. How can you completely ignore the other thousands of religons out there? Who the fuck said yours is the best? Who made you king dick?

[Nick Le]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_g3YUxj9bf7U/SN2Y-J3NmAI/AAAAAAAAAhw/t7Sk7GeJ7UY/s400/religionfail

Religion does a lot of good for many around the world.......but it also brings out the inner retard in roughly twice as many.

:appl:

[zion the lion]

First of all there's already how many zillion threads on this?

And every single one devolves into elitists like that fucking idiot Bung saying something completely idiotic and rude, and then it devolves even further into just a shitfest of everyone debating about christianity (and no it doesnt matter that it's the main religion here, because the title of this thread is "Religion" which includes all religions)

I'd rather wax my vagina my marathon than have to watch this shit go down again. If this changes then someone let me know but if this ends up the same as every other religion thread then someone get me some wax.

[barkingincision]

The only real problem i have with religon are the people who believe 100% there religon is the best, and that if you don't have the same beliefs you're automatically going to hell. How can you completely ignore the other thousands of religons out there? Who the fuck said yours is the best? Who made you king dick?


that, right there is the basis for everything that embodiesl intolerance on a global and personalized scale

[iloveanimals]

When I die it's either I'll rot in the ground or god exists and he'll be like, "Hey I don't blame you for having your doubts. You seem like a decent dude and there wasn't any solid proof I existed in the first place. No worries." Or some other crazy unexplainable bullshit.

[pnkhrdwndr]

To put it simply: http://www.mormon.org

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_g3YUxj9bf7U/SN2Y-J3NmAI/AAAAAAAAAhw/t7Sk7GeJ7UY/s400/religionfail
Religion does a lot of good for many around the world.......but it also brings out the inner retard in roughly twice as many.
+1 to both of these. that about sums up religion for me

[The Summer Ends]

also that picture is stupid, there are idiots on both sides of the fence. for every "evolution is fake WHY ARE THERE MONKEYS STILL HERE DERP" person, there's a "my life is black nobody understands me I'M ATHEIST TO REBEL AGAINST SOCIETY DERP" person.

[etheritcher]

It's comforting to think that there's a reason why everything happens. I don't try to push my beliefs on others and it bums me out when I see others try to do the same. That includes atheists and agnostics who belligerently degrade those who believe. Whatever works for you is what you should go with and I think that should be respected.

[bung]

you don't respect the beliefs of the major religions? you don't respect morality?

Morality is not a product of religion. In fact, I often see religion as a detriment to morality.

[bung]

And every single one devolves into elitists like that fucking idiot Bung saying something completely idiotic and rude

I'm glad I can make such an impression as to be singled out exclusively. If you have any points or reasonable arguments to share, be my guest.

[LastDeclaration]

Morality is not a product of religion. In fact, I often see religion as a detriment to morality.

I didn't say it was product. Living a good and moral life is the core belief of every major religion. It's what religion is based around. You don't respect that?

[bNz719]

Religion doesn't deserve to be respected, only tolerated. Hopefully it will eventually go away.

This.

Also...
MeSSwKffj9o

[Sean Rizzo]

I'm not particular to any denomination of Christianity or to any other religion, but I will say that I believe in God and am pro-Jesus and I have my own beliefs. As to what you just said, I respect that and respect people like you that have respect for other's beliefs and don't try to preach or denounce somebody's beliefs. Here's an internet high five for you, haha.
Preaching is fine, imo. So is claiming a portion of someone's belief being incorrect. But, to denounce someone's beliefs as being entirely and completely false, that's where I draw the line. Mormons believe every religion has a portion of truth to it, even one of the rationales for atheism.

The only real problem i have with religon are the people who believe 100% there religon is the best, and that if you don't have the same beliefs you're automatically going to hell. How can you completely ignore the other thousands of religons out there? Who the fuck said yours is the best? Who made you king dick?
For the record I'm happy to say that Mormons don't believe in this either. =D

+1 to both of these. that about sums up religion for me
Haha. *friends you*

[bung]

I didn't say it was product. Living a good and moral life is the core belief of every major religion. It's what religion is based around. You don't respect that?

You're drastically simplifying things. I respect living a good and moral life. However, that is not the extent of religion, nor does one even need to be religious to live a good, moral life. To me, that makes the majority of it superfluous. Most major religions, save for Buddhism, require the acceptance of supernatural forces or entities that actively intervene in human affairs. Unless an individual is a deist, which most people are not, that means a lot of the population is willing to be satisfied with non-answers for natural, currently unexplainable, phenomena. Such a position wholly undermines our limited understanding of the universe.

[Hagysaurus Rex]

I believe that Jesus was a pretty cool dude that had some great things to say, but the son of God thing is a bit of a stretch. I would like to think that I am an Agnostic that leans towards open-mindedness and tolerance. I'm not saying there isn't a God, but I am saying that if there is one I'm pretty sure he or she has better things to worry about than my little daily crisis. I mean, really? Should I bother the creator of the entire fucking universe to help me out with this job interview? Aren't there wars, famines, ethnic cleansing and shit that he or she should be worrying about?

[zion the lion]

I'm glad I can make such an impression as to be singled out exclusively. If you have any points or reasonable arguments to share, be my guest.

No, you're just the male version of me, you're fucking crazy.

[zion the lion]

This.

Also...
MeSSwKffj9o

Oh yay someone finally found the time to bite the bullet and post this...I was waiting to see who was going to be the jackass who thought that nobody had ever seen George Carlin ever before...seriously posting this is now equivalent to being that 15 year old kid who dresses all in black and claims to be a satanist and says "fuck religion, fuck people who need a crutch"

[cmark88]

Religion doesn't deserve to be respected, only tolerated. Hopefully it will eventually go away.


kinda a moronic thing to say, seeing as religion is only growing in influence these days, and along with that, the religious are growing in number. In this day and age of rationalism and popular atheism! Who'd a thunk, right?

[bNz719]

Oh yay someone finally found the time to bite the bullet and post this...I was waiting to see who was going to be the jackass who thought that nobody had ever seen George Carlin ever before...seriously posting this is now equivalent to being that 15 year old kid who dresses all in black and claims to be a satanist and says "fuck religion, fuck people who need a crutch"

Oh boy.
Stop there, you've already embarrassed yourself twice in here.
Unless you're going to provide us with any valuable points towards this discussion, stop talking.

[Hagysaurus Rex]

It's not 100% the preaching that bothers me (it's a big part of it) but I just don't like the idea of a band putting limitations on themselves. Especially if they are part of a christian label who won't release an album unless it fits their parameters.


Well said.

[zion the lion]

you do realize how many times that video has been posted in all of the religion threads right? And you double posted...how cute.

[Nick Le]

Preaching is fine, imo. So is claiming a portion of someone's belief being incorrect. But, to denounce someone's beliefs as being entirely and completely false, that's where I draw the line. Mormons believe every religion has a portion of truth to it, even atheism.


Re-reading what I wrote when I mentioned preaching, I gotta agree with you on all of this.

[zion the lion]

This.

Also...
MeSSwKffj9o

double. gg

Oh boy.
Stop there, you've already embarrassed yourself twice in here.
Unless you're going to provide us with any valuable points towards this discussion, stop talking.

Because you've certainly posted some really valuable points during your time here too. And before you try to say that the regurgitated video is valuable...it isnt, its like me posting something from richard pryor.

p.s. you can learn how to just delete a post instead of editing it when you realize you double posted, dumb dumb.

[superdork]

Not sure if I think there is a god or not. I tend to lean toward there being a god, but i don't exactly follow a single religion. I think that, if there is a god, he'd want you to live morally, and not really care what religion you followed.

[Sean Rizzo]

Re-reading what I wrote when I mentioned preaching, I gotta agree with you on all of this.
Haha, I figured as much when I got the friend request. ;-)

[vivatoto56]

When I die it's either I'll rot in the ground or god exists and he'll be like, "Hey I don't blame you for having your doubts. You seem like a decent dude and there wasn't any solid proof I existed in the first place. No worries." Or some other crazy unexplainable bullshit.

Haha I found this very funny.

[Hagysaurus Rex]

MeSSwKffj9o

Quoting your video just to piss zion off.

[xxUrPunkxx]

I couldn't give less of a rat's ass about religion unless you go all "omg ur gay THE POWAH OF CHRIST COMPELLS YU ******" on me.

I usually make up fake religions and see if they catch on. Right now it's Walrusism; I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.

[The Summer Ends]

lot of angstheists itt

just saying

[BornUnderPunches]

How is it moral to publish a book of stories as fact?

Religion is shaped by people. People are evil. Therefore, religion is evil.

You speak about morals but I would like you to provide an objective way to prove that your morals are superior to mine. Why is it that you think that what you believe to be moral is? Values have been created by humans (mainly men), they are not something that are found in nature.

I never once said that organized religion or the Bible is moral. Also, Jesus didn't write the fucking Bible, he just Lived (or didn't live) it.
Plus, last I checked, when the Bible was written, all of the stories probably seemed like they could be facts. Not until several thousand of years later did things in the Bible start to be proven as false. Only complete idiots still believe the Earth is 6000 years old.



To say that religion is evil because people are evil is idiotic. So that would mean that everything that people have created is evil. I never once said your morals are better than mine or that I am right or you are right. I said I believe Jesus to be a moral person, I could care less if God was his father or not, nor if he was real or not. I believe that he taught people to be moral, but people just fucked it up. You believe whatever you believe in, I could care less

[cmark88]

I never once said that organized religion or the Bible is moral. Also, Jesus didn't write the fucking Bible, he just Lived (or didn't live) it.
Plus, last I checked, when the Bible was written, all of the stories probably seemed like they could be facts. Not until several thousand of years later did things in the Bible start to be proven as false. Only complete idiots still believe the Earth is 6000 years old.



To say that religion is evil because people are evil is idiotic. So that would mean that everything that people have created is evil. I never once said your morals are better than mine or that I am right or you are right. I said I believe Jesus to be a moral person, I could care less if God was his father or not, nor if he was real or not. I believe that he taught people to be moral, but people just fucked it up. You believe whatever you believe in, I could care less


Just to let you know... the Bible never says the earth is 6000 years old.

[cmark88]

I couldn't give less of a rat's ass about religion unless you go all "omg ur gay THE POWAH OF CHRIST COMPELLS YU ******" on me.

I usually make up fake religions and see if they catch on. Right now it's Walrusism; I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.

Oh my gosh, you're gay. The power of Christ compels you!

[bung]

kinda a moronic thing to say, seeing as religion is only growing in influence these days, and along with that, the religious are growing in number. In this day and age of rationalism and popular atheism! Who'd a thunk, right?

No, that's misleading. As a percentage of the population, it's declining rapidly, especially in America. The only reason it's increasing in overall numbers is because the population itself is dramatically increasing.

[xxUrPunkxx]

Oh my gosh, you're gay. The power of Christ compels you!

I love you. :D

[Sean Rizzo]

Just to let you know... the Bible never says the earth is 6000 years old.
EXACTLY! You win for this. +5

That and the whole 'God made the earth in six days' thing is merely an expression of time, not an exact measurement.

[bung]

No, you're just the male version of me, you're fucking crazy.

This is probably the worst I've ever been insulted in my entire life.

[BornUnderPunches]

Just to let you know... the Bible never says the earth is 6000 years old.
The Bible doesn't say it, but I know several Christians that still believe it haha.

[cmark88]

No, that's misleading. As a percentage of the population, it's declining rapidly, especially in America. The only reason it's increasing in overall numbers is because the population itself is dramatically increasing.

do you have a website that has the stats for that? I hadn't heard that before.

I do know that Islam is still growing rapidly right now, and religion in general will only increase if the times we live in continue to be as rough as they have been--ESPECIALLY if resources start getting tighter from global warming.

[cmark88]

The Bible doesn't say it, but I know several Christians that still believe it haha.

I don't begrudge people from believing that though. They believe that based on listening to authority figures, much in the same way atheists take a lot of what authority figures in their realm say as truth.

[bung]

do you have a website that has the stats for that? I hadn't heard that before.

I do know that Islam is still growing rapidly right now, and religion in general will only increase if the times we live in continue to be as rough as they have been--ESPECIALLY if resources start getting tighter from global warming.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm

[BornUnderPunches]

I don't begrudge people from believing that though. They believe that based on listening to authority figures, much in the same way atheists take a lot of what authority figures in their realm say as truth.

I don't either, but when someone says they believe something that has been PROVEN false, then I lose a considerable amount of respect for them. To me, It's like if someone said the Earth is the center of the universe (something that the Church has accepted to be false...even though it was a considerable amount of time before they forgived Galileo...)

[cmark88]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm

yeah, I knew athiesm/agnosticism was growing in popularity in the US, but I'm thinking worldwide that's not true. Possibly in Europe, but I'm not sure about other parts of the world. The Middle East and Asia, for example, are increasingly religious.

[cmark88]

I don't either, but when someone says they believe something that has been PROVEN false, then I lose a considerable amount of respect for them. To me, It's like if someone said the Earth is the center of the universe (something that the Church has accepted to be false...even though it was a considerable amount of time before they forgived Galileo...)

it's entirely possible that extraterrestrials are playing a trick on us, they could easily make the earth date older than it actually is.

[BornUnderPunches]

it's entirely possible that extraterrestrials are playing a trick on us, they could easily make the earth date older than it actually is.

*cough**cough* the matrix (with aliens)*cough*. While that is entirey possible, until the slightest bit of actual evidence is discovered of that, i'll stick to my statement.

[cmark88]

*cough**cough* the matrix (with aliens)*cough*. While that is entirey possible, until the slightest bit of actual evidence is discovered of that, i'll stick to my statement.

the problem is, you're still plugged in.

[zion the lion]

This is probably the worst I've ever been insulted in my entire life.

Its totally a compliment.

[In2deep]

I don't give a fuck what you believe as long as you don't try and preach it to me.

This. Haha.
I believe in God, but i realize some people don't. While I don't get it, I don't really care. I look more at the character of a person rather than their religion. Once they start preaching their views to me about their religion or lack of it; then it becomes a problem.

[In2deep]

Just to let you know... the Bible never says the earth is 6000 years old.

Not to be disrespectful, but how is that possible? There are civilizations that have been around for almost 6000 years. Yet, the bible syas that Adam (PBUH) and Eve were the first people on earth... That's kind of contradictory. No one knows how long the earth has been around for, but science has proven its been around a lot longer than 6000 years. It was writtern into the bible, becuase the bible has been altered by men who decided write what they felt like writting. Again, no disrespect to any Christians... It's part of my religion to respect Christianity.

[Cameronisonfire]

http://popgumbo.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/george-michael-faith_l.jpg
You gotta have faith.

[cmark88]

Not to be disrespectful, but how is that possible? There are civilizations that have been around for almost 6000 years. Yet, the bible syas that Adam (PBUH) and Eve were the first people on earth... That's kind of contradictory. No one knows how long the earth has been around for, but science has proven its been around a lot longer than 6000 years. It was writtern into the bible, becuase the bible has been altered by men who decided write what they felt like writting. Again, no disrespect to any Christians... It's part of my religion to respect Christianity.


I think you misread my quote ;)

[chrislauren]

i think if what a person believes or does not believe gets them through the day and helps them sleep easier at night, that's awesome and i can't hate on that. it doesn't make them stupid or narrow minded. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but i've read some pretty disrespectful stuff on this thread.

[In2deep]

I think you misread my quote ;)

I actually did, I didn't see your others posts. I realized that a little while ago. My apologies haha..

[jessicalynn-xx]

no, i'm actually a Catholic, but i went through that phase as well. i think 90% of intelligent teenagers go through a phase where they question the ideas of religion and God and lean towards atheism, especially if they were brought up in a religious family, and especially, especially in a fundamentalist family. it's really disturbing to your faith when you realize that the supposed faith authorities have been teaching allegories to you as historical fact.

When you say allegories are you referring to Noah's ark, Jonah and the whale, Adam and Eve, etc? If so, what reason do you have to think these things are allegories? To my knowledge, the Bible doesn't say anywhere that those things are allegory, it would seem that those things are to be considered historical facts.

[jessicalynn-xx]

Hahah, you articulated my thoughts on them perfectly.

I don't mind if they try to disprove the existence of God to me, but that doesn't give them the right to mock or insult me for believing what I believe, like a lot of them do. But hey, they figure it doesn't matter since they lack a moral compass and don't believe in God or an ultimate consequence to their actions, so they decide they can be jerks anyway.

You realize that you just generalized all Atheists and insulted them all, while at the same time saying that they shouldn't insult Christians, right?

[jessicalynn-xx]

First of all there's already how many zillion threads on this?

And every single one devolves into elitists like that fucking idiot Bung saying something completely idiotic and rude, and then it devolves even further into just a shitfest of everyone debating about christianity (and no it doesnt matter that it's the main religion here, because the title of this thread is "Religion" which includes all religions)

I'd rather wax my vagina my marathon than have to watch this shit go down again. If this changes then someone let me know but if this ends up the same as every other religion thread then someone get me some wax.

Then why did you bother posting here?

[ohheroine]

i wish they'd all just go away

[jessicalynn-xx]

Just to let you know... the Bible never says the earth is 6000 years old.

I thought it did.

http://www.missiontoamerica.org/genesis/six-thousand-years.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/wow/does-the-bible-say-anything-about-astronomy

[Star Slight]

There was a poll about the most ridiculous religion a while ago that got pretty intense. I'll try to sum up my points:
I was born and raised Catholic, however I am no longer practicing.
I believe that a child should be raised with some fundamental religion, just as a base to their morality. It sure as hell helped me out. I plan on sending my kids to Catholic school but not shoving the religion down their throats. When they get old enough to form mature opinions on the topic, they can decide on their own.
As for the god issue, I think it was created as a scare tactic back in ancient times. The smarter humans created a mythical being that would judge the actions of everyone, and they would be rewarded in the afterlife, just so the biggest and strongest didn't take everything they wanted and rape constantly. I highly doubt that anyone would listen to a weakling talk about love unless there was some type of reward involved. As the cultures spread, different versions of god were created with the same basic concept. After a while, the concept got diluted and more and more contrived, until the different religions and sects formed.
So yes, I do think religion is a good thing; however, I don't agree with the bastardized forms presented today.
I respect people who believe in god because they need something to believe in. Perhaps they can't handle life without something like that watching over them. Whatever the case, they need god in their life and who am I to mock them for it? I don't and I'm completely fine with it.
Live and let live, stop being pompous douchebags regarding religion. The truth is, no one knows what happens when you die.
/rant

[Star Slight]

How is it moral to publish a book of stories as fact?

Religion is shaped by people. People are evil. Therefore, religion is evil.

You speak about morals but I would like you to provide an objective way to prove that your morals are superior to mine. Why is it that you think that what you believe to be moral is? Values have been created by humans (mainly men), they are not something that are found in nature.

What a ridiculous statement that makes no sense whatsoever. What kind of reasoning did you use there?

[bung]

To everyone who believes in Jesus and what he preached, go to this thread (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=1697002) and prove it.

Do something good for the world. For once.

[Star Slight]

Triple posting, I'd also like to point out that comments about the Church scandals, fundamentalists, and any other hot button topic that people like to throw into religious debates are moot, due to the fact that they reflect the actions of individuals within the religious community, rather than the religion itself. So you just sound dumb talking about it.

[zion the lion]

Then why did you bother posting here?

To get someone to get me some wax.

And fyi unless you can point out where exactly it says that the bible is 6000 years old, people taking certain chapters or verses of the bible out of context and twisting them to make them say something cryptic that may or may not mean that the world is 6000 years old isnt actually proof that the bible says that the world is 6000 years old.

Also, it never really said it, as far as I knew, there was just some crazy old guy who had basically "did the math" by using the ages of people in the bible and shit.

[zion the lion]

To everyone who believes in Jesus and what he preached, go to this thread (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=1697002) and prove it.

Do something good for the world. For once.

You're so out of line.

[bung]

You're so out of line.

And yet, only the lowly atheist has donated any money at all.

[cmark88]

To everyone who believes in Jesus and what he preached, go to this thread (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=1697002) and prove it.

Do something good for the world. For once.

sarcastic, or willfully ignorant?

[Big_Guy]

I used to be all about respecting one another's religion, but I'm over that for sure.


why should we respect these people when they don't respect science?

[imtellingseb]

kinda tough subject. personally im not a big fan of any major religion, but since the the society im living in is highly based on christianity, and ive accepted these laws, i kinda have to respect parts of what christianity stands for. but in my opinion, religion today is causing more problems and conflict than solutions. but i see why people need it, we all need something to believe in.

but what i find most annoying about the whole religion thing is that people tend to forget that religion is an opinion. its something that you choose to believe in, your not born with it like your ethnicity. but a lot of people choose to view their religion as such and that really bugs me.

[utfreak21]

I used to be all about respecting one another's religion, but I'm over that for sure.


why should we respect these people when they don't respect science?

motherfucking dot. when these kids get out of high school and take an actual science class maybe they'll appreciate not only what science explains about our world, but also the beauty of the thought processes behind the scientific method.

[utfreak21]

To say that religion is evil because people are evil is idiotic.

The old testament allows for the stoning of women on their wedding night if they cannot prove their virginity. The new testament tells women to be silent in churches. Raped muslim women are physically beaten for the sin of being with a man who is not their husband. Archaic religions required human sacrifices, encouraged cannibalism, and god knows what else. The catholic church systematically protects child molesters.

Not evil.

[ayerock]

The old testament allows for the stoning of women on their wedding night if they cannot prove their virginity. The new testament tells women to be silent in churches. Raped muslim women are physically beaten for the sin of being with a man who is not their husband. Archaic religions required human sacrifices, encouraged cannibalism, and god knows what else. The catholic church systematically protects child molesters.

Not evil.

This

[terror_91]

I've gotten like 8 quotes out of this thread. I'm too lazy/don't have enough time to answer them. People have put good points across to what I've stated and I'll have a think about them.

[TheProsAndCons]

There was a blasphemy law passed here on the 1st of January...
The same country that was at the epicentre of the child abuse thing, made it a law that you can't talk shit opn religions....

If somebody can prove to me that that is not stupidity, I would be greatly enlightened

[Sean Rizzo]

You realize that you just generalized all Atheists and insulted them all, while at the same time saying that they shouldn't insult Christians, right?
I wasn't generalizing all atheists, I was only speaking about the ones who mock people. Maybe I should have been more clear about that. But yes, I do understand that there are a lot of other respectful atheists out there. I was just explaining the rationale behind why some atheists decide to be disrespectful. These are the "disgruntled atheists" LastDeclaration was speaking about, no one said anything about all atheists.

[Deadbolt23]

i wish they'd all just go away

Why? Religion does a lot of good in the world, and in individual people's lives.

To get someone to get me some wax.

And fyi unless you can point out where exactly it says that the bible is 6000 years old, people taking certain chapters or verses of the bible out of context and twisting them to make them say something cryptic that may or may not mean that the world is 6000 years old isnt actually proof that the bible says that the world is 6000 years old.

Also, it never really said it, as far as I knew, there was just some crazy old guy who had basically "did the math" by using the ages of people in the bible and shit.

The Bible gives you everyone's age. I think that's what they're going off. I think the estimate is 6,000-10,000 years.

I used to be all about respecting one another's religion, but I'm over that for sure.


why should we respect these people when they don't respect science?

A great deal of people who are religious do respect science. You are very ignorant in that statement.

[BornUnderPunches]

motherfucking dot. when these kids get out of high school and take an actual science class maybe they'll appreciate not only what science explains about our world, but also the beauty of the thought processes behind the scientific method.

Hahaha to say that nobody with a religion listens to science is incredibly ignorant and stereotypical. I'm sure there ARE people that still don't believe in evolution (ex-that picture of the note about apples turning into watermelons or something like that) but I promise you a large, large majority of Christians accept things that have been proven.

[George-Michael]

Oh yay someone finally found the time to bite the bullet and post this...I was waiting to see who was going to be the jackass who thought that nobody had ever seen George Carlin ever before...seriously posting this is now equivalent to being that 15 year old kid who dresses all in black and claims to be a satanist and says "fuck religion, fuck people who need a crutch"

http://media.skateboard.com.au/forum/images/LOLWUT5.jpg

[Charles777]

I'm a scientologist.

[luvsickcatalyst]

I think there's a common misconception between "religion is stupid" and "people are stupid".

True faith and spirituality can lead to a fuller life of knowing who you are and the connection we have with one another. Unfortunately, virtually everything man-made (which could be built in us like sarcasm or built by us like the internet or church sex scandals) has ruined many people's desire to find that spiritual life. I've been lost in faith for as long as I can remember, really getting into the spirituality but hating the way "faithful" people conduct them and how the church is such a mess. I talked with one extremely-practicing Catholic girl a couple weeks ago who told me her uncle is gay, but she does not believe he deserves the right to get married to his boyfriend. That's messed up to me. I think, at the root of it, religion can be found in your most memorable times with friends, records that truly hit you and have an effect on you, and everything that has inspired you deeply because, one way or another, it involved community and brought out emotion in you. The denial of community and living life without fear is the denial of religion to me. Cheesy? Maybe. But I'd rather be positive and cheesy than angry and narcissistic.

Sorry if this is "tl;dr" for some of you, but just thought I should take a different angle from all this "religion's stupid, no you're stupid" debating.

[bNz719]

Hahaha to say that nobody with a religion listens to science is incredibly ignorant and stereotypical. I'm sure there ARE people that still don't believe in evolution (ex-that picture of the note about apples turning into watermelons or something like that) but I promise you a large, large majority of Christians accept things that have been proven.

True, but a lot of what I see is religious people accepting certain things that have been scientifically proven and then when it comes to something that does not agree with a certain aspect of their religion, they choose to believe that that is less true than another proven statement. Sometimes they even go as far as claiming something that has been scientifically proven, as false. I'm not speaking of just today, but throughout history. For example, the earth being the center of the universe was scientifically proved to be false but the church decided to not only to disagree, but to punish those who believed so. Personally, if two things have been proven scientifically true, I dont think people should not decide whether they feel it's true or not based on their scientifically-unproven religion (all of them).

True faith and spirituality can lead to a fuller life of knowing who you are and the connection we have with one another.

I agree with a lot of what you said after this statement, but regarding this. I've come to feel that people can live full lives without religion and that a lot of what people recognize as 'God helping them' or 'Religion making them a better, happier person,' was in the end, just themselves. For example, when a soccer player scores a goal, or a student does good a on a test they studied for, afterwards they might thank god, when in reality, it was just the player or the student accomplishing the task the entire time. To me, it just feels that things are in your own hands and people are sometimes too modest (maybe not the right word) with themselves regarding religion, due to the fact that they attribute good things to God's will rather than chance or skill.

[Big_Guy]

A great deal of people who are religious do respect science. You are very ignorant in that statement.

is that why they believe in something without first proving it?

[Deadbolt23]

is that why they believe in something without first proving it?

As opposed to just believing in science where nothing is ever proven?

[Star Slight]

The old testament allows for the stoning of women on their wedding night if they cannot prove their virginity. The new testament tells women to be silent in churches. Raped muslim women are physically beaten for the sin of being with a man who is not their husband. Archaic religions required human sacrifices, encouraged cannibalism, and god knows what else. The catholic church systematically protects child molesters.

Not evil.

Everything that you said was created by man, and really has no weight whatsoever on the religion. As I said earlier, you need to realize the distinction between the actual religion, and the people within it.

[jessicalynn-xx]

To get someone to get me some wax.

And fyi unless you can point out where exactly it says that the bible is 6000 years old, people taking certain chapters or verses of the bible out of context and twisting them to make them say something cryptic that may or may not mean that the world is 6000 years old isnt actually proof that the bible says that the world is 6000 years old.

Also, it never really said it, as far as I knew, there was just some crazy old guy who had basically "did the math" by using the ages of people in the bible and shit.

That's not crazy. The Bible doesn't explicitly state that "the Earth was created x number of years ago." But it does provide complete genealogies from Adam and Eve right up to Jesus. Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day out of seven days it took to create the universe and everything in it according to the Bible. There's no reason to think this was intended to be metaphorical or allegorical. Until science proved it wrong, Christians believed the Biblical account of creation. And, as always, when science came along and proved that creation story wrong, people made excuses and adaptations to justify adhering to bronze age beliefs in modern times. That creation story was written as if it were historical fact. Those genealogies were written as historical facts. If things happened the way the Bible said, the world is 6000 years old. "Doing the math" isn't crazy at all, it's what the Bible says.

[asslesschap182]

Neither do elitist jerks who say things such as these.
you cant just call someone elitist. he didnt even say anything that should lead you to believe he was elitist. he didnt say he was better than anyone. in fact, he didnt even mention any person or any group of people. so how can you call him elitist?

[Sean Rizzo]

you cant just call someone elitist. he didnt even say anything that should lead you to believe he was elitist. he didnt say he was better than anyone. in fact, he didnt even mention any person or any group of people. so how can you call him elitist?
By stating religion doesn't deserve respect and will hopefully eventually go away, he implied that non-religion is the only thing that should be respected as scientific fact; that the two aren't on an equal plane of spiritual beliefs. Science has little to do with the existence of a Creator. It explains how things work and how they change, not what initially created them or why they were created in the first place.

Elitism -

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment (respect) by virtue of their perceived superiority (belief is subjective, but non-belief is somehow objective), as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

[notchase]

Summary: god is not real or if he/she/it is then who cares?

[Big_Guy]

As opposed to just believing in science where nothing is ever proven?
what?

[livingalive626]

Is there right and wrong?

If so, there must be a moral law.

if there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver.

[Big_Guy]

That's not crazy. The Bible doesn't explicitly state that "the Earth was created x number of years ago." But it does provide complete genealogies from Adam and Eve right up to Jesus. Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day out of seven days it took to create the universe and everything in it according to the Bible. There's no reason to think this was intended to be metaphorical or allegorical. Until science proved it wrong, Christians believed the Biblical account of creation. And, as always, when science came along and proved that creation story wrong, people made excuses and adaptations to justify adhering to bronze age beliefs in modern times. That creation story was written as if it were historical fact. Those genealogies were written as historical facts. If things happened the way the Bible said, the world is 6000 years old. "Doing the math" isn't crazy at all, it's what the Bible says.

there's no getting thorough to these people. don't even bother trying.


at least you know

[Big_Guy]

Is there right and wrong?

If so, there must be a moral law.

if there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver.

no dummy. this is the most idiotic argument there is for a god.


I don't know why I subject myself to these threads anymore. maybe it's because I like my blood pressure to rise

[utfreak21]

Everything that you said was created by man, and really has no weight whatsoever on the religion. As I said earlier, you need to realize the distinction between the actual religion, and the people within it.

Those are the teachings of the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran, the three holy books of the three largest religions, not merely the actions of men. Yes, those books were written by men, but they are the foundations of their respective religions-- foundations that are stuck 2000 years in the past when women were treated like dogs and an "us versus them" mentality was used by kings to rule keep their subjects in line. Today, religion still not only allows for, but actively teaches that acts of extreme misogyny are divinely ordained.

The catholic molestation bit is a systematic problem. The vatican, including the pope, consistently covers up for the raping of children. If the vatican wasn't a religious organization, this would never happen. But it does. Why? Religion is treated differently than the rest of the world. Want to beat your wife because she doesn't want to sleep with you? Go for it, the koran says its ok. Want to sell your virgin daughter? That's cool, leviticus says that's ok.

For some reason, religion is seen as this sacred right that no one else can infringe on. Idiotic beliefs and despicable actions that should not be tolerated are given a get-out-of-jail-free card instead of being ridiculed and punished. That's why religion is evil.

[utfreak21]

Hahaha to say that nobody with a religion listens to science is incredibly ignorant and stereotypical. I'm sure there ARE people that still don't believe in evolution (ex-that picture of the note about apples turning into watermelons or something like that) but I promise you a large, large majority of Christians accept things that have been proven.

I was referring to certain individuals in this thread who, according to their ages, are likely still in high school, not christians as a whole.
However, your promise that a large, large majority of christians accept evolution is incorrect.
Only 40% of the U.S, a christian nation, accepts evolution. The worst statistic though, is that 40% outright reject it.

http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=060810_evo_rank _02.jpg&cap=A+chart+showing+public+acceptan ce+of+evolution+in+34+countries.+Th e+United+States+ranked+near+the+bot tom,+beat+only+by+Turkey.+Credit:+S cience

[utfreak21]

Is there right and wrong?

If so, there must be a moral law.

if there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver.

You don't believe that humans are capable of discerning right and wrong without assistance? Wow, what a bleak view of humanity.

[Star Slight]

Those are the teachings of the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran, the three holy books of the three largest religions, not merely the actions of men. Yes, those books were written by men, but they are the foundations of their respective religions-- foundations that are stuck 2000 years in the past when women were treated like dogs and an "us versus them" mentality was used by kings to rule keep their subjects in line. Today, religion still not only allows for, but actively teaches that acts of extreme misogyny are divinely ordained.

The catholic molestation bit is a systematic problem. The vatican, including the pope, consistently covers up for the raping of children. If the vatican wasn't a religious organization, this would never happen. But it does. Why? Religion is treated differently than the rest of the world. Want to beat your wife because she doesn't want to sleep with you? Go for it, the koran says its ok. Want to sell your virgin daughter? That's cool, leviticus says that's ok.

For some reason, religion is seen as this sacred right that no one else can infringe on. Idiotic beliefs and despicable actions that should not be tolerated are given a get-out-of-jail-free card instead of being ridiculed and punished. That's why religion is evil.

Yeah, nitpicking through books that are a couple thousand years old is the way to go. I don't remember being taught in religion class to disrespect the women in my life. The books are extremely outdated, yet the baseline of every religion is not evil.
Catholic molestation has nothing to do with the religion. It has to do with the idiots in charge, yes, but nothing at all to do with the teachings. Which is why that argument still has no bearing at all in this conversation.
You seem to have a grudge against various religions and thats great, but what I'm trying to say is that the fundemental structures of religion aren't evil. They've just been tainted throughout the years by man, thus leaving us with the clusterfuck we see today.

[BornUnderPunches]

I was referring to certain individuals in this thread who, according to their ages, are likely still in high school, not christians as a whole.
However, your promise that a large, large majority of christians accept evolution is incorrect.
Only 40% of the U.S, a christian nation, accepts evolution. The worst statistic though, is that 40% outright reject it.

http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=060810_evo_rank _02.jpg&cap=A+chart+showing+public+acceptan ce+of+evolution+in+34+countries.+Th e+United+States+ranked+near+the+bot tom,+beat+only+by+Turkey.+Credit:+S cience

Just wondering, how would someone obtain that statistic and be correct? That 40% of the entire US denounces evolution?

[BornUnderPunches]

Is there right and wrong?

If so, there must be a moral law.

if there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver.

Stupid comment is stupid.

[jmirand1]

Religion doesn't deserve to be respected, only tolerated. Hopefully it will eventually go away.

This is pretty much my viewpoint.

[zion the lion]

That's not crazy. The Bible doesn't explicitly state that "the Earth was created x number of years ago." But it does provide complete genealogies from Adam and Eve right up to Jesus. Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day out of seven days it took to create the universe and everything in it according to the Bible. There's no reason to think this was intended to be metaphorical or allegorical. Until science proved it wrong, Christians believed the Biblical account of creation. And, as always, when science came along and proved that creation story wrong, people made excuses and adaptations to justify adhering to bronze age beliefs in modern times. That creation story was written as if it were historical fact. Those genealogies were written as historical facts. If things happened the way the Bible said, the world is 6000 years old. "Doing the math" isn't crazy at all, it's what the Bible says.

Okay, but does the bible say how long Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden? It could have been millions and billions of years for all you know (because that was a land without death) and voila.

[zion the lion]

is that why they believe in something without first proving it?

You cant prove too much in science...dummy, all you have is theories and the best part about science is knowing that those are subject to change sooner or later.

Besides what do you think a hypothesis is?

[teaahnuh]

The other day I had a conversation about this with my friend, which basically consisted of her lecturing me on how I needed to believe in God. She also told me that she didn't want to see me in hell for it. This is why I hate talking about religion because it just ends up turning into a whole conversation that is utterly obnoxious.

[apsterling]

It frustrated me to go to a funeral today for a friend, and the pastor went on about how this friend wouldn't like us if we didn't like God and that if we didn't like God we'd be letting him down. It's one thing to preach, it's another to use someone as the basis for that. I see the intent but I disagree with the execution I guess.

[jessicalynn-xx]

You cant prove too much in science...dummy, all you have is theories and the best part about science is knowing that those are subject to change sooner or later.

Besides what do you think a hypothesis is?

A theory is a statement that explains a set of facts. So when you say "all you have is theories" what you're really saying is "all you have are facts that you can explain with a single statement."

[jessicalynn-xx]

Okay, but does the bible say how long Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden? It could have been millions and billions of years for all you know (because that was a land without death) and voila.

The Bible says Adam lived 930 years, and that he had his first son when he was 130.

[zion the lion]

A theory is a statement that explains a set of facts. So when you say "all you have is theories" what you're really saying is "all you have are facts that you can explain with a single statement."

They're not "facts", again you cant prove too much when it comes to science because we dont know shit about the universe we live in.

[mijakai]

I'm an atheist, always have been and always will be. For the most part, I respect other peoples beliefs (religious or otherwise), and as long as they don't try to lecture me about their beliefs, I won't try to lecture them about mine. But, do something that affects me because of your religion (like, for example, break up with me because the bible says that you should be unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? ...yeah true story) then I will get extremely grumpy.

[Deadbolt23]

what?

Things don't get proven in science. They're just strong theories until they are disproved.

[saab_girl]

I prefer to believe in myself than put all my hope into something that isn't real (to me). I have a friend who keeps switching from being super religious to not so much. All I hear is "If God wants this to happen, it will." "God is working this out for me." Live your own life and stop trying to think someone else has everything planned out for you. If you just sit around and wait for things to happen, they won't. She doesn't take risks and want to find a boyfriend that will only hold hands with her until they get married. She will be 22 this year. Sorry for the rant. :-)

[terror_91]

I'm betting that this will go to over 200 posts.

[Big_Guy]

You cant prove too much in science...dummy, all you have is theories and the best part about science is knowing that those are subject to change sooner or later.

Besides what do you think a hypothesis is?

all the science is on the side of a big bang over a creator yet you'll still believe in your creator because it makes you feel all fuzzy inside.


look, you can believe what you want, but don't get all butt hurt when people call you out

[Big_Guy]

Things don't get proven in science. They're just strong theories until they are disproved.

right, but when all the evidence supports one theory over another, which one are you gonna back?

[bung]

I find it funny that people who don't respect science continue to reap the benefits it has brought humanity on an everyday basis.

[Sean Rizzo]

The Bible says Adam lived 930 years, and that he had his first son when he was 130.
130 years after Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit. That's when their lifespan would begin to be counted, since they could not die while in the garden. :wave:

[Jennurna Gray]

How is it moral to publish a book of stories as fact?

Religion is shaped by people. People are evil. Therefore, religion is evil.

You speak about morals but I would like you to provide an objective way to prove that your morals are superior to mine. Why is it that you think that what you believe to be moral is? Values have been created by humans (mainly men), they are not something that are found in nature.
Like Daniel, I disagree with this statement. I believe that it's impossible for a human to be evil. Motives, actions, words, thoughts, and outside sources (I'm Christian, I believe in Satan and demonic beings), yes, but humans in general aren't evil. Mankind as a whole is evil only because it is influenced by outside sources.

Edit: I don't believe people can be 'good' either, only good movites, actions, words, thoughts and outside sources.

[Jennurna Gray]

Everything that you said was created by man, and really has no weight whatsoever on the religion. As I said earlier, you need to realize the distinction between the actual religion, and the people within it.
Thank you. I'm glad to know that there's someone intelligent in this thread.
Is there right and wrong?
If so, there must be a moral law.
if there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver.
Stupid comment is stupid.
That's not a stupid comment, these are: (Oh, and your's, too)
Summary: god is not real or if he/she/it is then who cares?
:eyebrow:
I was referring to certain individuals in this thread who, according to their ages, are likely still in high school, not christians as a whole.
Being in high school prohibits a person from being a Christian? God, you're ignorant.

[livingalive626]

You don't believe that humans are capable of discerning right and wrong without assistance? Wow, what a bleak view of humanity.

what is right and wrong?

[terror_91]

Like Daniel, I disagree with this statement. I believe that it's impossible for a human to be evil. Motives, actions, words, thoughts, and outside sources (I'm Christian, I believe in Satan and demonic beings), yes, but humans in general aren't evil. Mankind as a whole is evil only because it is influenced by outside sources.

Edit: I don't believe people can be 'good' either, only good movites, actions, words, thoughts and outside sources.
So humans are morally neutral? That's an interesting perspective that I've not really thought about.
I still stand by my statement that humans are evil beings. Society and culture force us into cooperation.

[Jennurna Gray]

So humans are morally neutral? That's an interesting perspective that I've not really thought about.
I still stand by my statement that humans are evil beings. Society and culture force us into cooperation.
Yes, that sums my theory up fairly well: We're neutral unless under the influence of any kind.
And that's respectable.

I think an interesting topic to debate would be mind vs. brain (soul vs. chemicals forcing us to be the way we are). Not sure if it's already in politics.

[LastDeclaration]

There is no conflict between belief in God and science. I don't know why atheists always bring it up.

[Manicapathy]

Yes, that sums my theory up fairly well: We're neutral unless under the influence of any kind.
And that's respectable.

I think an interesting topic to debate would be mind vs. brain (soul vs. chemicals forcing us to be the way we are). Not sure if it's already in politics.

Nerdy joke is nerdy
http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/20817/original/TrueNeutral2.jpg

[Sean Rizzo]

God, you're ignorant.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. :nono:

[jessicalynn-xx]

130 years after Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit. That's when their lifespan would begin to be counted, since they could not die while in the garden. :wave:

That's not what the Bible says. You can't just add things in that were never mentioned in the Bible. If that's what god meant then I think he would have said that to whoever it was that wrote Genesis. But he didn't. The Bible says Adam was created in god's image, and after he had lived 130 years he had his first son, and that in total he lived 930 years. You might want to try reading the book you base your beliefs on and stop making excuses. Moderate Christianity makes absolutely no sense. Believe what the Bible says, or don't. Making random facts and additions to what is supposed to be god's word doesn't help your case. It only shows that part of you knows that the Bible doesn't make sense. :wave:

[jessicalynn-xx]

There is no conflict between belief in God and science. I don't know why atheists always bring it up.

There's no conflict between general belief in god and science, but there's an enormous conflict between belief in Christianity and science, or Islam and science, etc. That's probably why atheists always bring it up.

[zion the lion]

all the science is on the side of a big bang over a creator yet you'll still believe in your creator because it makes you feel all fuzzy inside.


look, you can believe what you want, but don't get all butt hurt when people call you out

And you realize how shaky the big bang is? And trust me I'm the person who loves astrophysics but something coming out of nothing is really...hard.

and what religion do you think I belong to exactly? Because I have a feeling you're assuming that I belong to one at this point.

[EasySkankin]

Nothing reveals more the narcissistic nature of man than his belief that he was created in god's image. Some asshole at my school actually believes that there is some dude in space somewhere who controls the universe and we gotta build a rocketship to go find him.

[Deadbolt23]

right, but when all the evidence supports one theory over another, which one are you gonna back?

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Jennurna Gray]

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. :nono:
Are you making fun of me?

[Sean Rizzo]

Are you making fun of me?
No, I'm saying you're doing something naughty. I'm a christian too. (mormon) Only someone who didn't believe it would make a mockery out of it.

[Nuns On A Bus]

They're not "facts", again you cant prove too much when it comes to science because we dont know shit about the universe we live in.

Are you kidding me? There are tons of facts out there that have been proven by science. We may not know everything about the universe, but that doesn't mean that we know nothing.

[alix.xo]

i was raised without a set religion. my mom was raised catholic, my father lutheran. they divorced when i was a toddler, and i lived predominantly with her. she would talk to me about religions and answer my questions, but she never forced me to do anything i didn't want to do. i did a lot of research, and i've still yet to find something that rings true with me.
what i'm trying to say is that i think everyone has a right to believe in whatever they believe, as long as, like my mum, they are not infringing upon anyone else's rights.

[Jennurna Gray]

No, I'm saying you're doing something naughty. I'm a christian too. (mormon) Only someone who didn't believe it would make a mockery out of it.
Okay, I got cha now.

[kyleanthony]

whoever made a thread about religion is a moron because people are gonna fight about this. -sigh-

[Big_Guy]

And you realize how shaky the big bang is? And trust me I'm the person who loves astrophysics but something coming out of nothing is really...hard.

and what religion do you think I belong to exactly? Because I have a feeling you're assuming that I belong to one at this point.

what has more holes, the big bang, or creationism?


and I'm not assuming you belong to any religion, but it sounds like creationism is something that you buy into

[Star Slight]

whoever made a thread about religion is a moron because people are gonna fight about this. -sigh-

God forbid someone makes a thread that people argue about!
What is this, an internet forum?

[Big_Guy]

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

are we still talking about being religious and respecting science?


you're right they aren't mutually exclusive but science has blown holes in the ENTIRE bible/koran/torah, so people must make up bullshit like "well, those are just stories". bottom line, people pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible which pretty much makes me gag. so is the bible the word of god or isn't it? pick one


this isn't really an attack at you so much as it is a question to all religious folk


as far as god existing or not, obviously I can't prove that he/she/it doesn't, but thankfully I'm not the one making the claim that god exists so I don't have to prove anything

[kyleanthony]

God forbid someone makes a thread that people argue about!
What is this, an internet forum?
Lol thurs one thing about arguing about something. but religion is a deep deep touchy subject and it's just so pointless. Arguing about religion isn't getting anyone anywhere. It really isn't. We could tlk about this on and on and have like so many posts. In the end it's still pointless. Since religion has exsisted this has been going on and on and on and on. It's stupid.

[EasySkankin]

Lol thurs one thing about arguing about something. but religion is a deep deep touchy subject and it's just so pointless. Arguing about religion isn't getting anyone anywhere. It really isn't. We could tlk about this on and on and have like so many posts. In the end it's still pointless. Since religion has exsisted this has been going on and on and on and on. It's stupid.

Really the only time It could be productive to argue religion is among friends who respect each others' opinion.

Anyone who goes to a thread like this to post isn't here to listen, they are here to offer their perspective. I don't have to read this thread page for page to know all the different arguments posted on here. We form these opinions based on experiences, as opposed to arguing based on facts, events, etc. so no one is going to concede to anything anyone says on here unless they have shared experiences.

[bung]

The single greatest argument against the existence of an omnibenevolent God (central to virtually all religions) is the problem of evil. It has never been adequately resolved by anyone.

Knowing the world we live in, I fail to see how any rational creature could possibly believe in an all-loving God.

[kyleanthony]

The single greatest argument against the existence of an omnibenevolent God (central to virtually all religions) is the problem of evil. It has never been adequately resolved by anyone.

Knowing the world we live in, I fail to see how any rational creature could possibly believe in an all-loving God.
thank you

[kyleanthony]

Really the only time It could be productive to argue religion is among friends who respect each others' opinion.

Anyone who goes to a thread like this to post isn't here to listen, they are here to offer their perspective. I don't have to read this thread page for page to know all the different arguments posted on here. We form these opinions based on experiences, as opposed to arguing based on facts, events, etc. so no one is going to concede to anything anyone says on here unless they have shared experiences.
of course but it causes conflict. A lot of people aren't mature enough to handle a subject on this. It would be like a lot more appropriate to talk about religion in more of like a debate mature conference or something. Not on this website. Sooner or later some immature asshole is going to say something really ignorant and it's just going to be a mess. I'm not opposed to anyones perspective or opinion in this thread. You can't even talk about religion in Public Schools or share what you think of it. We all know the end result of talking about this subject matter.

[zion the lion]

Are you kidding me? There are tons of facts out there that have been proven by science. We may not know everything about the universe, but that doesn't mean that we know nothing.

Do you know how much we dont know? We know next to nothing. I'm sorry if you want to be that person who's arrogant and stupid enough to think that we know absolutely everything or even almost everything but no, not at all. None of our technology has ever touched Pluto, and at this rate, never will (we finally decided to pass it in 2015 but thats it, no probes no exploration). We know jack shit about the ocean (on our own planet...and if I'm not mistaken it covers our planet). So yes, science has proven that we can liquidize oxygen but can you point out where our galaxy is on a map of our universe?

what has more holes, the big bang, or creationism?


and I'm not assuming you belong to any religion, but it sounds like creationism is something that you buy into

Something comes from nothing (but it cant come from nothing because nothing doesnt exist) and it sits there for a while (but not a while because time doesnt exist so it actually doesnt sit there at all and it cant really be sitting around anywhere because if its anywhere then its occupying space and space doesnt exist) and that something from nothing (but not nothing because nothing doesnt exist) suddenly expands within a trillionth of a trillionth of a billionth of a second (or something like that) and then everything exists within it but not outside it still.

That has a lot of holes in it and you cant just solve it by saying "well it could just be the big crunch and the big bang" (like it expands and then deflates then starts all over again...its a theory fyi) because you'd still have the problem of where did it all start at in the first place? they both have too many holes.

And nope, sorry...most astrophysicists try to throw around the thought of the big bang.

[EasySkankin]

Do you know how much we dont know? We know next to nothing
That's such a worn out cliche. We completed mapping the human genome not too long ago. We can construct explosives out of common everyday chemicals. We know what the atoms look like on stars that are in other galaxies. Just imagine how far we have come from throwing sharp sticks at buffalo to being able to manufacture millions of these godly little devices you're staring at right now.

[zion the lion]

That's such a worn out cliche. We completed mapping the human genome not too long ago. We can construct explosives out of common everyday chemicals. We know what the atoms look like on stars that are in other galaxies. Just imagine how far we have come from throwing sharp sticks at buffalo to being able to manufacture millions of these godly little devices you're staring at right now.

Until you can answer my question and can tell me our origins without using approximates it will never be a worn out cliche. I get it, you're one of those idiots who thinks we're super geniuses and that the ipad is a fucking miracle but answer my question and tell me where this universe came from and exactly when and then that whole thing wont be a worn out cliche any more...okay buddy?

[bung]

Until you can answer my question and can tell me our origins without using approximates it will never be a worn out cliche. I get it, you're one of those idiots who thinks we're super geniuses and that the ipad is a fucking miracle but answer my question and tell me where this universe came from and exactly when and then that whole thing wont be a worn out cliche any more...okay buddy?

See, you simply don't understand. We don't know where the universe came from, if it came from anywhere, if (in some sense) it's always existed, if ours is the only universe, or what. Any person who knows anything is willing to admit that.

But you're appealing to ignorance as evidence (in this case, evidence for the existence of God). It's a logical fallacy.

[EasySkankin]

Until you can answer my question and can tell me our origins without using approximates it will never be a worn out cliche. I get it, you're one of those idiots who thinks we're super geniuses and that the ipad is a fucking miracle but answer my question and tell me where this universe came from and exactly when and then that whole thing wont be a worn out cliche any more...okay buddy?
Going back in time is impossible. No one will ever know exactly how the universe started. But i'd say it's stupider to assume that because we don't know absolutely everything makes us ignorant. Why don't we turn the tables and you explain how we "know nothing"

btw the ipad's retarded IMO. It's an overweight iphone. wtf

[zion the lion]

Going back in time is impossible. No one will ever know exactly how the universe started. But i'd say it's stupider to assume that because we don't know absolutely everything makes us ignorant. Why don't we turn the tables and you explain how we "know nothing"

btw the ipad's retarded IMO. It's an overweight iphone. wtf

How much do you know about science? How many scientists say that we dont know much about the universe we live in (and would go out on limb and say that we know very very little about it)? You never answered my question about where exactly our galaxy was on a map of the universe and because I'm eating ice cream and hate typing with one hand, I'll leave it up to you to figure it all out.

I never said that we didnt come a long way from "me tarzan" to sundials to camera phones in our goddamn pockets, I said we know next to nothing. That goes as far to say where we are in the universe, and how the universe started exactly (as in fact, not a theory with a sketchy background) and if you want to try to use the big bang theory as the way the universe came about, then tell me how that singularity got there in the first place.

[zion the lion]

See, you simply don't understand. We don't know where the universe came from, if it came from anywhere, if (in some sense) it's always existed, if ours is the only universe, or what. Any person who knows anything is willing to admit that.

But you're appealing to ignorance as evidence (in this case, evidence for the existence of God). It's a logical fallacy.

What the fuck are you talking about...I know that you dont know where the universe came from. If you were able to read without being an arrogant "I'm better than you atheist" prick you'd realize that by now you'd also realize that I was asking about this universe (not anything else in a multiverse) and I already addressed the always existing thing.

By the way, I've mentioned it before now in this thread...I'm not a christian, I dont believe in creation and I'm learning to become an astrophysicist . So anyone who knows anything should be willing to fucking read before they turn into an idiot like you.

[bung]

What the fuck are you talking about...I know that you dont know where the universe came from. If you were able to read without being an arrogant "I'm better than you atheist" prick you'd realize that by now you'd also realize that I was asking about this universe (not anything else in a multiverse) and I already addressed the always existing thing.

By the way, I've mentioned it before now in this thread...I'm not a christian, I dont believe in creation and I'm learning to become an astrophysicist . So anyone who knows anything should be willing to fucking read before they turn into an idiot like you.

So what exactly is the point that you're making? That scientific theories about the origin of the universe are far from satisfactory and complete?

...Everyone already realizes that.

[jessicalynn-xx]

And you realize how shaky the big bang is? And trust me I'm the person who loves astrophysics but something coming out of nothing is really...hard.

and what religion do you think I belong to exactly? Because I have a feeling you're assuming that I belong to one at this point.

All the big bang theory says is that the universe is expanding, that means that if you went back far enough in time, at some point all the matter and energy in the universe currently was condensed into an incredibly small space and that the release of that energy and matter into what is now the universe is called "The Big Bang." It doesn't necessarily mean that something came from nothing. The Big Bang theory doesn't claim to explain the "origins" of the matter and energy within the universe. We don't know what existed before the Big Bang, but based on human observation matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, what else do you have to go on other than human observation? Why say that the initial matter and energy must have been created? There's no reason to think that, no one has ever created matter or energy. Maybe the matter and energy that exist currently have just always existed. What is so wrong with that?

[zion the lion]

So what exactly is the point that you're making? That scientific theories about the origin of the universe are far from satisfactory and complete?

...Everyone already realizes that.

So stop acting like science trumps everything. Especially since religion was made to create things like that...my point is that you're treating like science is god when you say that these theories are a fucking fact its exactly like saying that creation is a fact.

[jessicalynn-xx]

Do you know how much we dont know? We know next to nothing. I'm sorry if you want to be that person who's arrogant and stupid enough to think that we know absolutely everything or even almost everything but no, not at all. None of our technology has ever touched Pluto, and at this rate, never will (we finally decided to pass it in 2015 but thats it, no probes no exploration). We know jack shit about the ocean (on our own planet...and if I'm not mistaken it covers our planet). So yes, science has proven that we can liquidize oxygen but can you point out where our galaxy is on a map of our universe?

You can't possibly quantify that. There's no way you can know how much you don't know about something...

[jessicalynn-xx]

So stop acting like science trumps everything. Especially since religion was made to create things like that...my point is that you're treating like science is god when you say that these theories are a fucking fact its exactly like saying that creation is a fact.

Science doesn't trump everything, but it definitely trumps religion.

[zion the lion]

All the big bang theory says is that the universe is expanding, that means that if you went back far enough in time, at some point all the matter and energy in the universe currently was condensed into an incredibly small space and that the release of that energy and matter into what is now the universe is called "The Big Bang." It doesn't necessarily mean that something came from nothing. The Big Bang theory doesn't claim to explain the "origins" of the matter and energy within the universe. We don't know what existed before the Big Bang, but based on human observation matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, what else do you have to go on other than human observation? Why say that the initial matter and energy must have been created? There's no reason to think that, no one has ever created matter or energy. Maybe the matter and energy that exist currently have just always existed. What is so wrong with that?

I didnt say it did. And I said that the singularity was basically in nothingness but not really because that space only existed within that singularity and thats what the big bang theory says. And when I bring that up its because I'm saying that its a sketchy theory.

And when you say "based on human observation" did it ever cross your mind that its because we dont know enough about our universe?

[zion the lion]

Science doesn't trump everything, but it definitely trumps religion.

Not anymore...not since people mindlessly follow it like a religion.

[bung]

So stop acting like science trumps everything. Especially since religion was made to create things like that...my point is that you're treating like science is god when you say that these theories are a fucking fact its exactly like saying that creation is a fact.

It's almost mind boggling how you have such an affinity toward putting words in people's mouth.

I'm treating science like God? I just flat-out said that scientific theories concerning the universe are far from satisfactory and complete. However, scientific theories are collections of facts with predictive power. The more facts, the better they can predict and explain. It's not unsurprising or premature to lean towards these theories as possible explanations, since they are based on facts. That doesn't mean they are wholly correct, but they're better than nothing, and they give us a start.

Creation, on the other hand, is not a theory and has no facts to support. So forgive me for dismissing it as irrational nonsense.

(Also, religion was not made to create anything. It was created to explain.)

P.S. That previous post of mine you quoted was the first time you said you didn't accept creation. All your other posts seemed to imply the opposite.

[jessicalynn-xx]

I didnt say it did. And I said that the singularity was basically in nothingness but not really because that space only existed within that singularity and thats what the big bang theory says. And when I bring that up its because I'm saying that its a sketchy theory.

And when you say "based on human observation" did it ever cross your mind that its because we dont know enough about our universe?

I realize that we don't know everything about our universe, but why make the leap and say that there is a god when you have no reason to think that there is one? All you have to go on is human observation. There is no other way for us to make conclusions about our universe other than our own observation. Nothing within our knowledge gives us reason to think there's a god. You're essentially arguing for the possibility of a god existing. Of course it's possible that a deity of some sort exists, but if it does exist it hasn't left a trace that we have observed yet. There's a huge difference between admitting it's possible that a god exists, and believing in one.

Regarding your other post, there are studies, research, experiments, equations, etc. backing up scientific theories. It's not mindless to believe something that has been observed time and time again. Religion offers up no evidence whatsoever. A lack of evidence for someone else's view isn't evidence for your own. Also, are you saying religious people are mindlessly following their beliefs? I don't think you meant to say that but that is what you said. You might want to work on wording your sentences more effectively.

EDIT: Since science is such a terrible way of discerning truths about the universe, what is your alternative method? Science is far from perfect but I thought it was the best we had. I'm so stoked to hear this new discovery of yours.

[zion the lion]

It's almost mind boggling how you have such an affinity toward putting words in people's mouth.

I'm treating science like God? I just flat-out said that scientific theories concerning the universe are far from satisfactory and complete. However, scientific theories are collections of facts with predictive power. The more facts, the better they can predict and explain. It's not unsurprising or premature to lean towards these theories as possible explanations, since they are based on facts. That doesn't mean they are wholly correct, but they're better than nothing, and they give us a start.

Creation, on the other hand, is not a theory and has no facts to support. So forgive me for dismissing it as irrational nonsense.

(Also, religion was not made to create anything. It was created to explain.)

P.S. That previous post of mine you quoted was the first time you said you didn't accept creation. All your other posts seemed to imply the opposite.

Well excuse me for a typing mistake, as I said before I was eating one of those big ol ice cream sandwiches with the cookies on it so I was typing with one hand.

No, I've at least implied that I dont dig the whole creation/god made this then that then this then that then this then then that thing.

When you start treating it like its a full on fact instead of a theory or like no matter what, it has got to be right, that's when you start treating it like a religion, and if you havent noticed science has evolved, look at the theories we used to have "the earth was flat", "the universe revolved around earth", when you automatically some established scientific theory as fact without even thinking about it, that's mindlessly following something. And whats going to happen when someone comes along and debunks that theory? Are you going to cling to it like other people have done with creation when evolution came around?

I realize that we don't know everything about our universe, but why make the leap and say that there is a god when you have no reason to think that there is one? All you have to go on is human observation. There is no other way for us to make conclusions about our universe other than our own observation. Nothing within our knowledge gives us reason to think there's a god. You're essentially arguing for the possibility of a god existing. Of course it's possible that a deity of some sort exists, but if it does exist it hasn't left a trace that we have observed yet. There's a huge difference between admitting it's possible that a god exists, and believing in one.

Regarding your other post, there are studies, research, experiments, equations, etc. backing up scientific theories. It's not mindless to believe something that has been observed time and time again. Religion offers up no evidence whatsoever. A lack of evidence for someone else's view isn't evidence for your own. Also, are you saying religious people are mindlessly following their beliefs? I don't think you meant to say that but that is what you said. You might want to work on wording your sentences more effectively.

EDIT: Since science is such a terrible way of discerning truths about the universe, what is your alternative method? Science is far from perfect but I thought it was the best we had. I'm so stoked to hear this new discovery of yours.

a. see above
b. I didnt say science was a terrible way, I love science I want to be a scientist so what the fuck is your problem? I said with science its never really a fact, its always evolving.

[Nuns On A Bus]

Do you know how much we dont know? We know next to nothing. I'm sorry if you want to be that person who's arrogant and stupid enough to think that we know absolutely everything or even almost everything but no, not at all. None of our technology has ever touched Pluto, and at this rate, never will (we finally decided to pass it in 2015 but thats it, no probes no exploration). We know jack shit about the ocean (on our own planet...and if I'm not mistaken it covers our planet). So yes, science has proven that we can liquidize oxygen but can you point out where our galaxy is on a map of our universe?

What the hell are you talking about? Sorry for being "that person who's arrogant and stupid enough to think that we know everything" when I specifically said that we didn't know everything. If anyone is being arrogant here it's you, and based by your posts to other people, you obviously have a serious problem with people who don't have the exact same beliefs as you.

None of our technology has ever reached Pluto? No shit, we've been in space for all of 50 or 60 years now. Frankly the fact that at the beginning of the 20th Century we were getting around by being pulled by horses and yet today we can get into space and fly around. Why don't you get off your computer? Because you know all those scientists who created all the "theories" about how they would work know nothing. We're just going to prove that they were all wrong soon enough, right? Because clearly computers don't work as it is. Why don't you go back to walking around and living in a hut (or an igloo, I suppose)? Because modern science hasn't done anything for you! The car you drive in, the house you live in, the computer you're on, they all just appeared out of thin air because God said so!

Give me a break. Saying that since we don't know everything we can't know anything isn't even a logical argument.

[jessicalynn-xx]

Well excuse me for a typing mistake, as I said before I was eating one of those big ol ice cream sandwiches with the cookies on it so I was typing with one hand.

No, I've at least implied that I dont dig the whole creation/god made this then that then this then that then this then then that thing.

When you start treating it like its a full on fact instead of a theory or like no matter what, it has got to be right, that's when you start treating it like a religion, and if you havent noticed science has evolved, look at the theories we used to have "the earth was flat", "the universe revolved around earth", when you automatically some established scientific theory as fact without even thinking about it, that's mindlessly following something. And whats going to happen when someone comes along and debunks that theory? Are you going to cling to it like other people have done with creation when evolution came around?



a. see above
b. I didnt say science was a terrible way, I love science I want to be a scientist so what the fuck is your problem? I said with science its never really a fact, its always evolving.

So then you don't believe in god? I don't get your argument. Science is a flawed way of obtaining truth? Obviously. No one's arguing against that. I don't recall ever saying or implying that science was infallible.

[bung]

When you start treating it like its a full on fact instead of a theory or like no matter what, it has got to be right, that's when you start treating it like a religion, and if you havent noticed science has evolved, look at the theories we used to have "the earth was flat", "the universe revolved around earth", when you automatically some established scientific theory as fact without even thinking about it, that's mindlessly following something. And whats going to happen when someone comes along and debunks that theory? Are you going to cling to it like other people have done with creation when evolution came around?


Give me an example of a scientific theory I've accepted "without even thinking about" or an example of "mindlessly following something."

Hint: It's impossible because you don't know what I do and do not think or read about.

[zion the lion]

What the hell are you talking about? Sorry for being "that person who's arrogant and stupid enough to think that we know everything" when I specifically said that we didn't know everything. If anyone is being arrogant here it's you, and based by your posts to other people, you obviously have a serious problem with people who don't have the exact same beliefs as you.

None of our technology has ever reached Pluto? No shit, we've been in space for all of 50 or 60 years now. Frankly the fact that at the beginning of the 20th Century we were getting around by being pulled by horses and yet today we can get into space and fly around. Why don't you get off your computer? Because you know all those scientists who created all the "theories" about how they would work know nothing. We're just going to prove that they were all wrong soon enough, right? Because clearly computers don't work as it is. Why don't you go back to walking around and living in a hut (or an igloo, I suppose)? Because modern science hasn't done anything for you! The car you drive in, the house you live in, the computer you're on, they all just appeared out of thin air because God said so!

Give me a break. Saying that since we don't know everything we can't know anything isn't even a logical argument.

Hm now I'm a little bit high now and I'm watching supernovas on discovery channel so I'll spell check but this isnt going to make so much sense until later.

igloos are for hunting.

So then you don't believe in god? I don't get your argument. Science is a flawed way of obtaining truth? Obviously. No one's arguing against that. I don't recall ever saying or implying that science was infallible.

I said people treat science as a god and take everything as fact like godscience said it so it must be true. thats the same thing that people bitch about christians doing and its like no you dumb hypocrites. I've been just trying to say that its not a goddamn absolute fact those theories aren't facts the facts can change soon too and it all changes quick and then you're left looking like the dummy who believed the earth was flat.

Give me an example of a scientific theory I've accepted "without even thinking about" or an example of "mindlessly following something."

Hint: It's impossible because you don't know what I do and do not think or read about.

i didnt say you did i said people did. but you might as well too.

[jessicalynn-xx]

I said people treat science as a god and take everything as fact like godscience said it so it must be true. thats the same thing that people bitch about christians doing and its like no you dumb hypocrites. I've been just trying to say that its not a goddamn absolute fact those theories aren't facts the facts can change soon too and it all changes quick and then you're left looking like the dummy who believed the earth was flat.

...So you don't believe in god?

[Deadbolt23]

are we still talking about being religious and respecting science?


you're right they aren't mutually exclusive but science has blown holes in the ENTIRE bible/koran/torah, so people must make up bullshit like "well, those are just stories". bottom line, people pick and choose what they want to believe in the bible which pretty much makes me gag. so is the bible the word of god or isn't it? pick one


this isn't really an attack at you so much as it is a question to all religious folk


as far as god existing or not, obviously I can't prove that he/she/it doesn't, but thankfully I'm not the one making the claim that god exists so I don't have to prove anything

We are. You need to stop assuming that all religious people are ignorant of science.
I can't talk for the Koran or the Torah, but science hasn't poked holes in the Bible. It isn't bullshit. A lot of the Old Testament is written figuratively like fables.
I'm not religious, but I think most Christians believe it is the word of God.
No, you're the one making the claim that God doesn't exist. No one has to prove anything. And I don't think they ever will. If God is real, then he wouldn't make it possible to prove that he is real, because that would completely undermine faith. And I don't think that it's possible to prove God doesn't exist.

[Star Slight]

Wait are people still arguing that the events in the bible should be taken literally, and thus science has proven them wrong? Because I came to that conclusion in like 6th grade then realized that they're stories.

[Deadbolt23]

I'm not, if that's what you're asking.

[bung]

Wait are people still arguing that the events in the bible should be taken literally, and thus science has proven them wrong? Because I came to that conclusion in like 6th grade then realized that they're stories.

How do you distinguish between what to take literally and what to take metaphorically?

[Deadbolt23]

How do you distinguish between what to take literally and what to take metaphorically?

I'm told that if you study the Bible, there are differences in the writing styles that show that it is figurative.

[bung]

I'm told that if you study the Bible, there are differences in the writing styles that show that it is figurative.

I would love to see a list of them side by side, comparing what to take literally and what to take figuratively.

I imagine there's some stuff that's meant to be taken literally that's still crazy, anyway.

[Star Slight]

How do you distinguish between what to take literally and what to take metaphorically?

Well I mean if you're over 13 years old I'd hope you could distinguish it for yourself. Almost none of the stories are meant to be taken literally, each of them holds a specific message which is meant to be taken to heart.

[Max_123]

man i love just sitting back and watching everyone get so uptight over tired arguments, you're never going to change someones opinion on religon!


:popcorn:

[Star Slight]

Eh, if a person is set on their beliefs, no argument would really be worth it. If we argued that your favorite band was terrible and mine was great, you wouldn't get anywhere either. Its still something to do when you're bored.

[Deadbolt23]

I would love to see a list of them side by side, comparing what to take literally and what to take figuratively.

I imagine there's some stuff that's meant to be taken literally that's still crazy, anyway.

Well, the resurrection defies science pretty heavily, but that's meant to be taken literally.

[Big_Guy]

Well, the resurrection defies science pretty heavily, but that's meant to be taken literally.

yeah, this is enough for me to know that religion is a load of shit because I know for a fact it didn't happen

[Big_Guy]

but science hasn't poked holes in the Bible. It isn't bullshit. A lot of the Old Testament is written figuratively like fables.

dude, c'mon

If God is real, then he wouldn't make it possible to prove that he is real, because that would completely undermine faith.

lol, heard this one before

[jessicalynn-xx]

Wait are people still arguing that the events in the bible should be taken literally, and thus science has proven them wrong? Because I came to that conclusion in like 6th grade then realized that they're stories.

How are people meant to tell the difference? There's nothing to indicate that the story of creation in Genesis is a metaphor. If that was the intention don't you think the writers would have tried to make it a little clearer? I mean, this is god's word we're talking about.

[jessicalynn-xx]

Well I mean if you're over 13 years old I'd hope you could distinguish it for yourself. Almost none of the stories are meant to be taken literally, each of them holds a specific message which is meant to be taken to heart.

Where in the Bible does it say this? Oh, it doesn't? So you're just making your own personal additions to the Bible to make it more believable in modern times? Too bad you weren't around when the Bible was being written. I mean, if the Bible actually said that then maybe you'd have a leg to stand on but it doesn't so you don't.

You're essentially saying that the sheer stupidity of Noah's ark, Jonah and the whale, etc, should convince most people that they aren't true? Why then would you not disregard the entire Bible?

If you were reading a history book that listed off a bunch of events you'd never heard of and that you couldn't find mentioned in any other history book - some of them scientifically possible, some of them scientifically impossible - would you disregard the book entirely? Or would you disregard only the ones that were scientifically impossible as metaphors and believe the rest even though there's no other source to back it up?

[Star Slight]

How are people meant to tell the difference? There's nothing to indicate that the story of creation in Genesis is a metaphor. If that was the intention don't you think the writers would have tried to make it a little clearer? I mean, this is god's word we're talking about.

I have no idea what you mean by "tried to make it a little clearer". The story was about man being tainted by the world, by temptation. Its not very hard to pick out the main message in these stories. The problem is that too many people are taking the bible literally, and either:
A. Looking way too far into the meaning to come up with ridiculous facts
or
B. Writing off the bible completely by not gaining the messages in the words


Where in the Bible does it say this? Oh, it doesn't? So you're just making your own personal additions to the Bible to make it more believable in modern times? Too bad you weren't around when the Bible was being written. I mean, if the Bible actually said that then maybe you'd have a leg to stand on but it doesn't so you don't.

You're essentially saying that the sheer stupidity of Noah's ark, Jonah and the whale, etc, should convince most people that they aren't true? Why then would you not disregard the entire Bible?

If you were reading a history book that listed off a bunch of events you'd never heard of and that you couldn't find mentioned in any other history book - some of them scientifically possible, some of them scientifically impossible - would you disregard the book entirely? Or would you disregard only the ones that were scientifically impossible as metaphors and believe the rest even though there's no other source to back it up?


Sheesh, U Mad.
I'm not calling any of them stupid, I'm saying that they clearly don't make sense and most likely did not happen. Did God flood the world and have Noah put 2 of every animal on an ark? No, no he didn't. But that doesn't mean that people should write off the whole book. I never said that. The point of the bible isn't for it to be taken literally, at least from the way that I've perceived it.

The difference is the bible isn't a history book, it shouldn't be looked at that way. I wasn't arguing against the bible in any way. I was saying that a good amount of the arguments in here that I've read had to deal with factual evidence in the bible. Which means people are looking more into the actual words written on the page rather than their message.
I cannot answer your question because the bible isn't a history book.

[Deadbolt23]

yeah, this is enough for me to know that religion is a load of shit because I know for a fact it didn't happen

How?

dude, c'mon


lol, heard this one before

Damn, you're good at this.

[lbopm]

Well, the resurrection defies science pretty heavily, but that's meant to be taken literally.

I don't know man, modern medicine has "resurrected" people pronounced dead before.

[Deadbolt23]

I don't know man, modern medicine has "resurrected" people pronounced dead before.

After 3 days, and without modern medicine?

[4N6 science]

I have no idea what you mean by "tried to make it a little clearer". The story was about man being tainted by the world, by temptation. Its not very hard to pick out the main message in these stories. The problem is that too many people are taking the bible literally, and either:
A. Looking way too far into the meaning to come up with ridiculous facts
or
B. Writing off the bible completely by not gaining the messages in the words





Sheesh, U Mad.
I'm not calling any of them stupid, I'm saying that they clearly don't make sense and most likely did not happen. Did God flood the world and have Noah put 2 of every animal on an ark? No, no he didn't. But that doesn't mean that people should write off the whole book. I never said that. The point of the bible isn't for it to be taken literally, at least from the way that I've perceived it.

The difference is the bible isn't a history book, it shouldn't be looked at that way. I wasn't arguing against the bible in any way. I was saying that a good amount of the arguments in here that I've read had to deal with factual evidence in the bible. Which means people are looking more into the actual words written on the page rather than their message.
I cannot answer your question because the bible isn't a history book.

You're spot on with your thoughts on the bible. I took a whole class on the new testament in college and learned that all the stories were written as metaphors to teach lessons. The stories themselves are not literal and probably are not true. After reading that chicks posts I agree with how you responded.

[Big_Guy]

How?


because it cant happen, that's how.


Jesus was a regular dude just like you and me. If I'm beaten to death, I am not coming back.


and dude, I'm not here to try and change your mind. if you are happy, keep believing this stuff. I just have a problem with the fact that being religious has become the default and people that don't believe are looked at like they are crazy, when half the shit that religion teaches you looks and sounds crazy to me

[Deadbolt23]

because it cant happen, that's how.


Jesus was a regular dude just like you and me. If I'm beaten to death, I am not coming back.


and dude, I'm not here to try and change your mind. if you are happy, keep believing this stuff. I just have a problem with the fact that being religious has become the default and people that don't believe are looked at like they are crazy, when half the shit that religion teaches you looks and sounds crazy to me

I'm not even religious. I was just trying to change your mind about Christians. They're not all ignorant to science. Neither's the Bible.

You don't know Jesus was just a man. Open your mind a bit.

[Big_Guy]

I'm not even religious. I was just trying to change your mind about Christians. They're not all ignorant to science. Neither's the Bible.

You don't know Jesus was just a man. Open your mind a bit.
you're not religious and we keep going back and forth with this? well fuck me


I know they aren't all ignorant to science, but if they were truly religious, which most couldn't give a fuck, they'd realize that nothing in their bible makes a damn bit of sense.



but what was jesus? an animal? I'm trying to figure this out. don't tell me you believe in super heroes or something though

[Deadbolt23]

you're not religious and we keep going back and forth with this? well fuck me

I like discussing things :shrug:


I know they aren't all ignorant to science, but if they were truly religious, which most couldn't give a fuck, they'd realize that nothing in their bible makes a damn bit of sense.

I wouldn't say that's true. The New Testament is a very, very good moral code.

but what was jesus? an animal? I'm trying to figure this out. don't tell me you believe in super heroes or something though

I believe he was a man. But he could well have been the Son of God. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it might not be true.

[lbopm]

After 3 days, and without modern medicine?

Well you were saying resurrection goes against science, and I'm saying actually no it doesn't. Also, again as people have said the idea of the resurrection of Christ is a spiritual and supernatural thing. Supernatural occurrences do not per say have to follow the laws of science, and that is why it's a faith judgement if you believe it or not.

[Star Slight]

yeah, this is enough for me to know that religion is a load of shit because I know for a fact it didn't happen

Its called faith brah. Its a pretty big part of the religion.

[Deadbolt23]

Well you were saying resurrection goes against science, and I'm saying actually no it doesn't. Also, again as people have said the idea of the resurrection of Christ is a spiritual and supernatural thing. Supernatural occurrences do not per say have to follow the laws of science, and that is why it's a faith judgement if you believe it or not.

I said 'the resurrection'. I was only talking about that one specific resurrection, which does defy science. The second part of your statement is what I've been saying.

[lbopm]

I said 'the resurrection'. I was only talking about that one specific resurrection, which does defy science. The second part of your statement is what I've been saying.

I mix up people in this thread. Opinions blend together lol

[Deadbolt23]

I mix up people in this thread. Opinions blend together lol

Haha, don't worry. I think everyone does. It makes for some very confusing arguments.

[bung]

I'll argue against the New Testament being a good moral code.

For instance, is the heart of Jesus' teachings not the Golden Rule (ie; treat others how you want to be treated)?

Well, that sounds all nice and good. Except that not everyone wants to be treated how I want to be treated. We all have varying personalities, and, as such, all of us would like to be treated in ways that are congruent to our dispositions.

Certainly the masochist should refrain in treating people how they, themselves, would like to be treated, no?

There's also Nietzsche, of course.

[Deadbolt23]

I'll argue against the New Testament being a good moral code.

For instance, is the heart of Jesus' teachings not the Golden Rule (ie; treat others how you want to be treated)?

Well, that sounds all nice and good. Except that not everyone wants to be treated how I want to be treated. We all have varying personalities, and, as such, all of us would like to be treated in ways that are congruent to our dispositions.

Certainly the masochist should refrain in treating people how they, themselves, would like to be treated, no?

There's also Nietzsche, of course.

I think you're taking it too literally. It isn't saying 'if you're in the mood for ice cream, go buy someone ice cream.' It's saying that you need to think about how you're treating other people.

[bung]

I think you're taking it too literally. It isn't saying 'if you're in the mood for ice cream, go buy someone ice cream.' It's saying that you need to think about how you're treating other people.

I dunno, I've heard the Golden Rule reiterated a thousand times.. and it's never just to think about how you're treating other people. It's always treating other people how you want to be treated. However, I guess I don't want to debate this specific issue, because it will more be an argument over what Jesus really meant, rather than the ethics themselves.

Edit: Although, if it merely means "Think about how you're treating people," then that's no better. It's an empty declaration. It tells me nothing about the way in which I'm supposed to treat people.

[Big_Guy]

Its called faith brah. Its a pretty big part of the religion.

yeah, I understand. what does faith do for you though? your life would be EXACTLY the same if you didn't believe this stuff.

[bung]

Prince_of_Light, a Mormon, just admitted in the "cheating" thread that, if the survival of his entire family was contingent upon him cheating on his girlfriend, he would let his entire family die rather than do something "wrong."

That is religion, people.

[Big_Guy]

I wouldn't say that's true. The New Testament is a very, very good moral code.



yeah, but what about the old testament?

and what about every other religion such as Hinduism? are they wrong? again, this isn't an attack at you, I'm just raising some questions.

how can Christians be so positive they are right and other religions are wrong? they can't all be right, but they can all be wrong. see what I'm saying here?

[Star Slight]

yeah, I understand. what does faith do for you though? your life would be EXACTLY the same if you didn't believe this stuff.

Nothing, and I don't believe this stuff. Merely offering the other side of the argument. Its dumb to argue about faith based principles because in order to believe in them....you have to have faith.