ortiz a little hypocritical????

[fromwithin]

David Ortiz (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5909), the American League leader in home runs and RBI, says Boston's (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=bos) fall from the American League playoff race should not disqualify him from the race for the AL's Most Valuable Player award.
But Ortiz told reporters after the Red Sox's 9-3 win over the Royals on Sunday that he thinks that's what's going to happen.


Ortiz said if he had a vote, he might cast it for Jermaine Dye (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5610) or Paul Konerko (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5908) of the Chicago White Sox (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=cha), or Justin Morneau (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7063) of the Minnesota Twins (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=min).
"All depends on who makes the playoffs," he said. "Dye is having an unbelievable season, an incredible year. Konerko, too.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Jeter is going to finish with 200+ hits, 100+ runs, 100+ rbis, 30+ steals, and a .345 avg.

and oh yea, the 1st place team in the AL east.

[Scott Weber]

I think Jeter's going to win it.

[mikeford]

the yankees would still be walking away with the division without jeter.

without ortiz the red sox are battling the rays for last.

ortiz will be the MVP in my mind no matter what happens.

[xbrokendownx]

the yankees would still be walking away with the division without jeter.

without ortiz the red sox are battling the rays for last.

ortiz will be the MVP in my mind no matter what happens.





im not so sure about that...



but, with that said, i still think ortiz should win it, even though i obviously hope jeter does

[mikeford]

the yankees are up by how many games? whos in first then? the jays?

dont be stupid.

[xbrokendownx]

the yankees are up by how many games? whos in first then? the jays?

dont be stupid.





im not saying we wouludnt still be winning


but it sure would be a hell of a lot closer

[fluke182]

He obviously was quite satisfied by Cecil Fielder winning in 1990 then. Very stupid statement by Ortiz. I personally think Raul Ibanez should be the MVP because without him the Mariners would be much further in last place then they currently are.

[xbrokendownx]

He obviously was quite satisfied by Cecil Fielder winning in 1990 then. Very stupid statement by Ortiz. I personally think Raul Ibanez should be the MVP because without him the Mariners would be much further in last place then they currently are.







please never discuss baseball again



kthnxbye

[RockVocalPower]

Yeah Jeter!

[thejetstolehome]

im not so sure about that...



but, with that said, i still think ortiz should win it, even though i obviously hope jeter does

ditto.

[mikeford]

wow raul ibanez huh?

welp, see ya later.

[Scott Weber]

He obviously was quite satisfied by Cecil Fielder winning in 1990 then. Very stupid statement by Ortiz. I personally think Raul Ibanez should be the MVP because without him the Mariners would be much further in last place then they currently are.
rofl, are you kidding me? Just because he's had a career year doesn't mean he's the MVP, and the M's are in last place WITH him, and would still be there without him. That's incredibly stupid...sorry dude. His numbers aren't even THAT good, and I'm an M's fan.

[thejetstolehome]

I think Jeter's going to win it.

i hope you're right.

[Scott Weber]

i hope you're right.
I hope I'm not. Haha. I want to see Ortiz win it, I just think Jeter will.

[fluke182]

I was joking. I thought it was obvious I was layering in the sarcasm. Sorry that the internet is impossible to convey sarcasm over. I think Jeter's going to take it, and I really cannot come up with a convincing argument as to why he shouldn't. He's putting up all around numbers and it annoys me that Ortiz is demeaning his season because he won't hit 50 homers or have 140 RBI's. Anyways, yeah, maybe I should note *sarcasm* whenever I'm going to toss anything like that in so everyone doesn't rip me to pieces.

[aminorthreat55]

David Ortiz (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5909), the American League leader in home runs and RBI, says Boston's (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=bos) fall from the American League playoff race should not disqualify him from the race for the AL's Most Valuable Player award.
But Ortiz told reporters after the Red Sox's 9-3 win over the Royals on Sunday that he thinks that's what's going to happen.


Ortiz said if he had a vote, he might cast it for Jermaine Dye (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5610) or Paul Konerko (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5908) of the Chicago White Sox (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=cha), or Justin Morneau (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7063) of the Minnesota Twins (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=min).
"All depends on who makes the playoffs," he said. "Dye is having an unbelievable season, an incredible year. Konerko, too.
It's not hypocritical because the first statement reflects his opinion and the second reflects his view on how the system generally works.

But okay.

[Adeniz19]

It's not hypocritical because the first statement reflects his opinion and the second reflects his view on how the system generally works.

But okay.it is hypocritical because they ask if HE had a vote who would he pick.... if playoffs don't matter to him then that shouldn't be one of his determining factors

[Yankees' #1 Fan]

no he explained it perfectly

[youkwalks]

either way he meant it, who cares? Ortiz is not going to win, Jetere is going to win becasue his team is destroying the AL East and they'll use all the teams injuries to justify it. Ortiz' only chance is to break Foxx's record, which he will probably do, but even then I think Jeter gets it.

[bigmike]

the yankees would still be walking away with the division without jeter.

without ortiz the red sox are battling the rays for last.

ortiz will be the MVP in my mind no matter what happens.
These are my exact thoughts on it as well. Jeter will win, but Ortiz, should win, IMO.
im not so sure about that...



but, with that said, i still think ortiz should win it, even though i obviously hope jeter does
Who would've challenged them? The Orioles? The Blue Jays? put a decent SS in his place and you'd be just fine.

[xbrokendownx]

These are my exact thoughts on it as well. Jeter will win, but Ortiz, should win, IMO.

Who would've challenged them? The Orioles? The Blue Jays? put a decent SS in his place and you'd be just fine.





i never said they would not have won the division


it would have been a LOT closer with the red sox if we did not have jeter. no jeter, matsui, or sheffield? cmon....

[bigmike]

i never said they would not have won the division


it would have been a LOT closer with the red sox if we did not have jeter. no jeter, matsui, or sheffield? cmon....
Right now you'd probably have a game or two less lead. The AL East right now is pathetic.

[mikeford]

I almost hope Ortiz doesn't break Jimmy Foxx's record just because it'll be a waste. And we'll always remember his best season as one that went for nothing.

[Split2nd]

Jeter is going to finish with 200+ hits, 100+ runs, 100+ rbis, 30+ steals, and a .345 avg.

and oh yea, the 1st place team in the AL east.

.345 average- commendable, but not worthy of an MVP. If it were, then Ichiro should have won in '04, or Mauer should win this year.

200+ hits - same as average, I don't know why you'd include this. He gets more ABs than some other sluggers because he doesn't walk as much

100 runs - this has almost nothing to do with how he performs, runs are a team dependent stat, and it's not too difficult to score 100 runs when you're in the 2 spot and have the fucking AL All Star team hitting behind you.

100 RBIs - SEE ABOVE

30 steals - uhhhhh... not very special, doesn't make him worthy of an MVP

1st place team - Doesn't make him worthy, the reason the Yanks are in first place is because in addition to Jeter, they have a ridiculous lineup backing him up, a very formidable bullpen, and a solid rotation headed by two guys who have been great this year. The Sox getting obliterated with injuries and sucking doesn't hurt either.

The fact that he's even being mentioned as MVP makes me want to throw up. If the Rangers were ahead in the AL West, and Michael Young were hitting .340/.419/.493 with 13 HR, 100ish RBI, 100ish R, and 20-30 SB, no one would give a fuck. But because he's Derek Jeter he's actually being considered for MVP. I really hope Jeter doesn't win it, it'd be a fucking disgrace. If he's up there, then Mauer should be up there if the Twins make the playoffs. It's bad enough Jeter is stealing Gold Gloves from more deserving candidates, but if this douche bag steals a fucking MVP, I'm never going to even pay attention to an AL award again.

One of Dye, Thome, or Ortiz is the MVP PERIOD. My vote goes to Ortiz.

[TBSowns524]

.345 average- commendable, but not worthy of an MVP. If it were, then Ichiro should have won in '04, or Mauer should win this year.

200+ hits - same as average, I don't know why you'd include this. He gets more ABs than some other sluggers because he doesn't walk as much

100 runs - this has almost nothing to do with how he performs, runs are a team dependent stat, and it's not too difficult to score 100 runs when you're in the 2 spot and have the fucking AL All Star team hitting behind you.

100 RBIs - SEE ABOVE

30 steals - uhhhhh... not very special, doesn't make him worthy of an MVP

1st place team - Doesn't make him worthy, the reason the Yanks are in first place is because in addition to Jeter, they have a ridiculous lineup backing him up, a very formidable bullpen, and a solid rotation headed by two guys who have been great this year. The Sox getting obliterated with injuries and sucking doesn't hurt either.

The fact that he's even being mentioned as MVP makes me want to throw up. If the Rangers were ahead in the AL West, and Michael Young were hitting .340/.419/.493 with 13 HR, 100ish RBI, 100ish R, and 20-30 SB, no one would give a fuck. But because he's Derek Jeter he's actually being considered for MVP. I really hope Jeter doesn't win it, it'd be a fucking disgrace. If he's up there, then Mauer should be up there if the Twins make the playoffs. It's bad enough Jeter is stealing Gold Gloves from more deserving candidates, but if this douche bag steals a fucking MVP, I'm never going to even pay attention to an AL award again.

One of Dye, Thome, or Ortiz is the MVP PERIOD. My vote goes to Ortiz.


well articulated and i couldn't agree more

[youkwalks]

Some stats. RC/27 is runs created per game--how many runs would score if there was a line-up full of that person. WPA is winning probability added-- A system in which each player is given credit toward helping his team win, based on play-by-play data and the impact each specific play has on the team's probability of winning.(THT) For instance, if Ortiz hits a homerun in the bottom of the 9th, his WPA for that game is extremely high. TWPA (total WPA). Lastly, win shares. I usually dont use win shares because of some of the factors that go in to it and also because its not always correlated between seasons. Win shares is a complicated stat showing how much a player contributed to the teams win (or loss).

Jeter: 9.2 RC/27; 5.62 TWPA; 27 WS
Thome: 9.6 RC/27; 3.05 TWPA; 23 WS
Dye: 9.3 RC/27; 5.42 TWPA; 23 WS
Morneau: 8.4 RC/27; 4.54 TWPA; 23 WS
Mauer (why is no one talking about him?): 8.8 RC/27; 2.34 TWPA (maybe this is why); 26 WS
Ortiz: 8.4 RC/27; 6.87 TWPA; 23 WS
Manny: 9.7 RC.27; 3.83 TWPA; 27 WS

Its pretty close all around. Jeter is the best hitter on the yankees this year, whicih is surprising given the bats they have. Given that and his stats that pretty much rank right up there with everyone else on the list, I think he wins it, and probably deserves it.

[mikeford]

ortiz is a full point above everyone else in total win probablity.

[Spicoli hey bud]

.345 average- commendable, but not worthy of an MVP. If it were, then Ichiro should have won in '04, or Mauer should win this year.

Mauer has 30 less hits, 30 less runs, 20 less RBI's, and 20 less steals. And in '04 you have to consider who Ichiro was up against. The competition changes every year. Ever hear of a man named Vladdy?

200+ hits - same as average, I don't know why you'd include this. He gets more ABs than some other sluggers because he doesn't walk as much
Jeter will have 200 hits by next week, in significantly less at bats than Ichiro.

100 runs - this has almost nothing to do with how he performs, runs are a team dependent stat, and it's not too difficult to score 100 runs when you're in the 2 spot and have the fucking AL All Star team hitting behind you.
IN ORDER TO SCORE RUNS YOU NEED TO GET ON BASE. HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU SAY THIS DOES'T REFLECT HIS PERFORMANCE?

100 RBIs - SEE ABOVE
wow, valid point. A shortstop in the 2 spot bats in 100+ (plus, impying MORE THAN) runs and you don't find it impressive.

30 steals - uhhhhh... not very special, doesn't make him worthy of an MVP
If I were impying that his MVP vote should be based on steals alone, then you make a valid point. This stat is in ADDITION to the rest

1st place team - Doesn't make him worthy, the reason the Yanks are in first place is because in addition to Jeter, they have a ridiculous lineup backing him up, a very formidable bullpen, and a solid rotation headed by two guys who have been great this year. The Sox getting obliterated with injuries and sucking doesn't hurt either.


It's bad enough Jeter is stealing Gold Gloves from more deserving candidates, but if this douche bag steals a fucking MVP, I'm never going to even pay attention to an AL award again.

One of Dye, Thome, or Ortiz is the MVP PERIOD. My vote goes to Ortiz.
HA.

[mikeford]

TWPA: Ortiz wins.

seems to me like TWPA is the very definition of an MVP. the player that impacted his teams ability to win the most.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Oh and I'm not denying the fact that Ortiz has MVP type stats, but to say that Jeter doesn't is wrong. I hope this kid replies.

[youkwalks]

TWPA: Ortiz wins.

seems to me like TWPA is the very definition of an MVP. the player that impacted his teams ability to win the most.
best post you ever made

and yes, mike is 100% right. Win probability is the stat I like the most when looking at MVP because really, MVP is about the clutch hits and performances that help a team win. WPA (I added the T for Total) attempts to measure this. However, WPA can fluctuate pretty quick. A couple days ago Jeter was ahead of Ortiz in WPA. I guess you could look day to day WPA to see who was more consistent with good situational hitting.

[merv the perv]

Did I just see someone write "I think Raul Ibanez should be MVP"?

[youkwalks]

Mauer has 30 less hits, 30 less runs, 20 less RBI's, and 20 less steals. And in '04 you have to consider who Ichiro was up against. The competition changes every year. Ever hear of a man named Vladdy?
his batting average offers no insight to his run production skills. obp and slg would be better stats to look at here. its pretty evident other players being discussed have lower ba, but just as much run production.

Jeter will have 200 hits by next week, in significantly less at bats than Ichiro.
659 PA to 634 PA? I wouldnt say thats a significant amount. All it means is Jeter has been walked more. That difference in PA is because Ichiro leads off.


IN ORDER TO SCORE RUNS YOU NEED TO GET ON BASE. HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU SAY THIS DOES'T REFLECT HIS PERFORMANCE?

getting on base is a good part of your argument, but scoring runs is also dependent on the guys hitting behind him. If he bat in front of Posada and Cano he doesnt score as many runs as he does hitting in front of Giambi, A-rod, Abreu.


wow, valid point. A shortstop in the 2 spot bats in 100+ (plus, impying MORE THAN) runs and you don't find it impressive.

Damon getting on-base in front of him is going to help. not saying that youre wrong, just saying

[Spicoli hey bud]

his batting average offers no insight to his run production skills. obp and slg would be better stats to look at here. its pretty evident other players being discussed have lower ba, but just as much run production.


659 PA to 634 PA? I wouldnt say thats a significant amount. All it means is Jeter has been walked more. That difference in PA is because Ichiro leads off.


getting on base is a good part of your argument, but scoring runs is also dependent on the guys hitting behind him. If he bat in front of Posada and Cano he doesnt score as many runs as he does hitting in front of Giambi, A-rod, Abreu.


Damon getting on-base in front of him is going to help. not saying that youre wrong, just saying
oh god I don't think you understood a single point that I made.

My first point was that bringing up Ichiro in '04 is meaningless. Jeter isn't being compared with the '04 candidates, he's being compared to those playing now.

PAs are not the same at ABs but, yea, it's about the same difference. He claimed that Jeter was getting more at bats. Oh and thanks for clearing up the fact that Ichiro bats in the 1 spot.

You can't argue the IFs. Sure maybe IF he batted somewhere else his stats would vary (maybe), but he doesn't, so why bother bringing that up?

and Damon has a .368 obp. Your old argument to move Jeter back in the lineup would backfire in the RBI department.

[youkwalks]

oh god I don't think you understood a single point that I made.

My first point was that bringing up Ichiro in '04 is meaningless. Jeter isn't being compared with the '04 candidates, he's being compared to those playing now.

PAs are not the same at ABs but, yea, it's about the same difference. He claimed that Jeter was getting more at bats. Oh and thanks for clearing up the fact that Ichiro bats in the 1 spot.

You can't argue the IFs. Sure maybe IF he batted somewhere else his stats would vary (maybe), but he doesn't, so why bother bringing that up?

and Damon has a .368 obp. Your old argument to move Jeter back in the lineup would backfire in the RBI department.
The point wasn't to compare Ichiro, but simply point out the pointlessness of arguing his BA when other stats and rates would be better....

do you know what PA are? Its AB's as well as walks, hbp, and sacrifices. Jeter is getting more AB's than the 550 it shows.

because using RBI as a form of MVP measurement is stupid. His RBI is as good as the guy hitting ahead of him, not to mention the yankees line-up is stacked (which I guess would also but a hole in WPA). This still doesn't give anyone else on the list a pass with RBI.

What about my old argument? That has nothing to with this debate. If Jeter and Damon were swapped it would give more PA to a guy with a higher obp and relatively equal power. thats a bad move? The run values of power sats between 1 and 2 are not wide enough to not put the higher obp at the top.

[bigmike]

oh god I don't think you understood a single point that I made.

My first point was that bringing up Ichiro in '04 is meaningless. Jeter isn't being compared with the '04 candidates, he's being compared to those playing now.

PAs are not the same at ABs but, yea, it's about the same difference. He claimed that Jeter was getting more at bats. Oh and thanks for clearing up the fact that Ichiro bats in the 1 spot.

You can't argue the IFs. Sure maybe IF he batted somewhere else his stats would vary (maybe), but he doesn't, so why bother bringing that up?

and Damon has a .368 obp. Your old argument to move Jeter back in the lineup would backfire in the RBI department.
Translation: I'm a yankees fan, therefore Jeter is the MVP.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Translation: I'm a yankees fan, therefore Jeter is the MVP.
quiet. i've already stated that my bias is minimal and I think Ortiz is worthy. Read everything else in the thread. I only came in because someone deemed Jeter a disgrace or something to that extent.

The point wasn't to compare Ichiro, but simply point out the pointlessness of arguing his BA when other stats and rates would be better....

do you know what PA are? Its AB's as well as walks, hbp, and sacrifices. Jeter is getting more AB's than the 550 it shows.

because using RBI as a form of MVP measurement is stupid. His RBI is as good as the guy hitting ahead of him, not to mention the yankees line-up is stacked (which I guess would also but a hole in WPA). This still doesn't give anyone else on the list a pass with RBI.

What about my old argument? That has nothing to with this debate. If Jeter and Damon were swapped it would give more PA to a guy with a higher obp and relatively equal power. thats a bad move? The run values of power sats between 1 and 2 are not wide enough to not put the higher obp at the top.
Thank you for pointing out pointlessness. Of course I know what PAs are so do me a favor and stop trying to sound more intelligent than you are because I said AB and I meant AB. JETER IS NOT GETTING MORE OFFICIAL ABs THAN THE 550 IT SHOWS BECAUSE HE HAS EXACTLY 550. Your arguments are trivial. I find it funny that you see this as a debate because you simply jumped into something and acted as if my rebuttals were to what you are trying to show. Please go back to my original posts and try again to formulate a valid response.

[bigmike]

basically take David Ortiz from the Red Sox, and they're fighting with the orioles to stay ahead of TB.

Take Jeter off the Yankees, and they're still in first place.

[Spicoli hey bud]

basically take David Ortiz from the Red Sox, and they're fighting with the orioles to stay ahead of TB.

Take Jeter off the Yankees, and they're still in first place.
yes, but take Ortiz off the sox and they're not a wildcard team. Keep him on, they still aren't.

[bigmike]

yes, but take Ortiz off the sox and they're not a wildcard team. Keep him on, they still aren't.
Or, keep him on and he carries the entire team for about 2 months straight just to keep them in contention until august.

Take him off, and they're out of the race by the end of may at the latest. No one on any team, has carried his team to keep them incontention for the majority of the season.

Not even Ryan Howard. Yes, he's led them back into contention, but really that was only possible beacuse the NL is a complete joke.

[youkwalks]

Thank you for pointing out pointlessness. Of course I know what PAs are so do me a favor and stop trying to sound more intelligent than you are because I said AB and I meant AB. JETER IS NOT GETTING MORE OFFICIAL ABs THAN THE 550 IT SHOWS BECAUSE HE HAS EXACTLY 550. Your arguments are trivial. I find it funny that you see this as a debate because you simply jumped into something and acted as if my rebuttals were to what you are trying to show. Please go back to my original posts and try again to formulate a valid response.
Incase you didn't notice, I wasn’t debating your original post, but some of the measurements you are using. Split argued the first half just fine.


So when you pull the stick out of your ass and want to debate, lets do it. this board needs a good mlb discussion. Until then, no need to get hostile. All it does is discredit your case.

[mikeford]

yes, but take Ortiz off the sox and they're not a wildcard team. Keep him on, they still aren't.


for the millionth time on this board


how can you fault david ortiz for the red sox pitching staff having a 6+ ERA since the all star break? how is that at all his fault that the rest of his team let him down? to fucking penalize him for the failure of everyone around him is fucking stupid and altogether WRONG.

[fromwithin]

OH SNAP!

When asked about Boston Red Sox (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=bos) DH David Ortiz (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5909)'s grousing about his chances to be the American League MVP, Jeter noted the Yankees still have "something to play for."

[fcknazisympathy]

David Ortiz is the MVP end of story, this isn't even an issue.

[livethesounds]

Ryan Howard is the MVP of both leauges.

[Spicoli hey bud]

OH SNAP!

When asked about Boston Red Sox (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=bos) DH David Ortiz (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5909)'s grousing about his chances to be the American League MVP, Jeter noted the Yankees still have "something to play for."
yea, the article was interesting. Damon called Ortiz's comments "unlike papi" or something.

for the millionth time on this board


how can you fault david ortiz for the red sox pitching staff having a 6+ ERA since the all star break? how is that at all his fault that the rest of his team let him down? to fucking penalize him for the failure of everyone around him is fucking stupid and altogether WRONG.
It sucks that they hold these things against him, even when personally he has done just as much as everyone else to try and make his team win. The voters really should look at go ahead RBIs, which Ortiz is leading the league I think with 40something. But the whole DL thing and the no playoff thing seem like they're going to be enough to keep him from winning it. If I were you, I'd blame Varitek for getting hurt.

In Jeter's defense, Sheff and Matsui go down, and he steps it up, as well as the rest of the team. He bats almost .400 with RISP. For some reason I can't find Ortiz's RISP.

[selftitled85]

if ortiz does not win the mvp he at least deserves the hank aaron award...aka the best offensive player.

[Broken Parachute]

Morneau
Ortiz
Jeter
Dye
Mauer

That should be the Top 5, in order. I hope Morneau wins it.

[youkwalks]

In Jeter's defense, Sheff and Matsui go down, and he steps it up, as well as the rest of the team. He bats almost .400 with RISP. For some reason I can't find Ortiz's RISP.
Jeter's RISP is .391 with 138 AB's and 77 RBI
Ortiz' RISP is .293 with 147 AB's and 75 RBI.

Ortiz' power helped his RBI total.

[Broken Parachute]

Chances are Ortiz won't have a chance to win it, and it's the MLB's fault. They changed their view on MVP's. Unless the Red Sox make the playoffs, Ortiz won't win it because that's how they like to do things (playoff teams).

[bigmike]

Ryan Howard is the MVP of both leauges.
Nope. Ortiz has carried his team more than Howard has. Howard's team is only in a playoff race because of the shitty NL.
Morneau
Ortiz
Jeter
Dye
Mauer

That should be the Top 5, in order. I hope Morneau wins it.
Nah. Morneau's got more to work with this year in his lineup. He's got Mauer hitting in front of him, Cuddyer with something like 94 RBI's or something bizzare like that and torii hunter hitting behind him with 20+ HRs and 70+ RBI's. Ortiz has... manny hitting behind him and who? Mark Loretta and Coco Crisp getting on base for him?

Ortiz
Jeter
Morneau
Dye
Thome
Mauer

[Broken Parachute]

Nope. Ortiz has carried his team more than Howard has. Howard's tem is only in a playoff race because of the shitty NL.

Nah. Morneau's got more to work with this year in his lineup. He's got Mauer hitting in front of him, Cuddyer with something like 94 RBI's or something bizzare like that and torii hunter hitting behind him with 20+ HRs and 70+ RBI's. Ortiz has... manny hitting behind him and who? Mark Loretta and Coco Crisp getting on base for him?

Ortiz
Jeter
Morneau
Dye
Thome
Mauer
I know I'm just pulling for Morneau because he's probably the most underrated MVP candidate.

I wish the Indians were in it and Hafner wasn't hurt. :(

[bigmike]

I know I'm just pulling for Morneau because he's probably the most underrated MVP candidate.

I wish the Indians were in it and Hafner wasn't hurt. :(
Yeah, I love Hafner. Indians will be scary in 07. The entire AL Central Division could be scary good in 2008-2009. So much good young talent in this division. I think it's got the best young talent of any division in baseball, hands down.

[youkwalks]

Nope. Ortiz has carried his team more than Howard has. Howard's team is only in a playoff race because of the shitty NL.

Nah. Morneau's got more to work with this year in his lineup. He's got Mauer hitting in front of him, Cuddyer with something like 94 RBI's or something bizzare like that and torii hunter hitting behind him with 20+ HRs and 70+ RBI's. Ortiz has... manny hitting behind him and who? Mark Loretta and Coco Crisp getting on base for him?

Ortiz
Jeter
Morneau
Dye
Thome
Mauer
I dont buy this. Nixon was a good #5 hitter and Lowell filled the middle of the line-up for most the season. Not to menton Youkilis and Loretta have the best OBP by non power hitters (and trot who would be an excellent two hitter) on the team batting infront of Ortiz. Ya, there have been times when it was Ortiz and nothing and he still mashed, but Ortiz has not been left alone the whole season.

[Broken Parachute]

Yeah, I love Hafner. Indians will be scary in 07. The entire AL Central Division could be scary good in 2008-2009. So much good young talent in this division. I think it's got the best young talent of any division in baseball, hands down.
Definitely. Anyone in the Central can basically make the playoffs in the next few years.

[Split2nd]

Mauer has 30 less hits, 30 less runs, 20 less RBI's, and 20 less steals. And in '04 you have to consider who Ichiro was up against. The competition changes every year. Ever hear of a man named Vladdy?


HITS AND AVERAGE ARE VIRTUALLY THE SAME THING WHEN YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ABs

He's hitting .345, that's fantastic! Very impressive. BUT ACCOUNTING FOR HIS HITS IS REPETITIVE.

You know why Mauer has 20 less hits? Because he has 463 ABs, and Jeter has 555. Mauer walks more, and is a Catcher, so he can't play every single day.


Jeter will have 200 hits by next week, in significantly less at bats than Ichiro.

I never mentioned Ichiro for this year. He hasn't even been noteworthy this year. I said "sluggers," not Ichiro, the two are polar opposites. EXAMPLE: Manny Ramirez is hitting .318, but with 26 more walks than Jeter. Therefore, he has had 26 less At bats, (not plate appearances) than Jeter, giving Jeter more of an opportunity to get more hits. Obviously this doesn't really relate all that much because Manny is hitting .318, but because Jeter doesn't walk as much as some other guys, he's obviously going to get more ABs and thus more Hits.




IN ORDER TO SCORE RUNS YOU NEED TO GET ON BASE. HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU SAY THIS DOES'T REFLECT HIS PERFORMANCE?

IF YOURE PRAISING HIM FOR GETTING ON BASE, CITE HIS ON BASE PERCENTAGE, NOT HIS RUNS. Runs are a team dependent stat, it's all about his teammates knocking him in. Point out he has an excellent on base percentage, along with his average. Those are the two areas he's done very well in, RUNS is not a category HE's done well in, his teammates knocked him in.



wow, valid point. A shortstop in the 2 spot bats in 100+ (plus, impying MORE THAN) runs and you don't find it impressive.

RBI is not a good stat to evaluate a player. It's ALL about the team he's playing on, the lineup he's hitting in. Obviously Jeter is going to get fuckin' 100 RBI when he has Damon hitting ahead of him, and the juggernaut that is the Yankee lineup spilling over, giving him more of an opportunity to knock in runs. Hitting with RISP is all about sample size. VERY, VERY (I stress it...) few players in the history of baseball have proven to hit better or worse with Runners in Scoring Position over an extended period of time (not 100 ABs, like this year or something). So his RBI are all about his teammates being on base, not very much to do with him. Again, commend him for his great batting average if anything.


If I were impying that his MVP vote should be based on steals alone, then you make a valid point. This stat is in ADDITION to the rest

I know, but when the rest of his stats are less than impressive, then the steals don't mean much.

NOTE: Again, Jeter is having a great year, and has an excellent average and OBP. However, there have been players better than him this year that deserve the award. (Thome, Dye, Hafner, Ortiz)


HA.

Something funny Joe Morgan?

[youkwalks]

excellent post. you read like a stat head.

[Spicoli hey bud]

I never mentioned Ichiro for this year. He hasn't even been noteworthy this year. I said "sluggers," not Ichiro, the two are polar opposites.
I was referring to this...

.345 average- commendable, but not worthy of an MVP. If it were, then Ichiro should have won in '04, or Mauer should win this year.

[Split2nd]

I was referring to this...

Well the entire premise of the argument is that Jeter's main attribute this year has been his average, coupled with a great OBP due to his average. What I was trying to say was that if average were such an important stat, and key to winning an MVP over players with superior stats in almost every other category, than Ichiro should have beaten out other players in 2004 who had superior stats in other cats, when he had the highest average, a pretty good OBP/OPS, some pop, and a bunch of SBs.

[Spicoli hey bud]

Well the entire premise of the argument is that Jeter's main attribute this year has been his average, coupled with a great OBP due to his average. What I was trying to say was that if average were such an important stat, and key to winning an MVP over players with superior stats in almost every other category, than Ichiro should have beaten out other players in 2004 who had superior stats in other cats, when he had the highest average, a pretty good OBP/OPS, some pop, and a bunch of SBs.
I see where you're coming from, but you have to look at who Ichiro lost to that year. Vladdy had 39 HRs, 126 RBIs, 15 SB and a .337 BA. He was also responsible for the Angels making the playoffs that year. Those numbers are better than most of the candidates this year.

[bigmike]

I see where you're coming from, but you have to look at who Ichiro lost to that year. Vladdy had 39 HRs, 126 RBIs, 15 SB and a .337 BA. He was also responsible for the Angels making the playoffs that year. Those numbers are better than most of the candidates this year.
if by "better than most" you mean not better then Jermaine Dye's, Justin Morneau's, David Ortiz', Travis Hafner's (before being done for the season), Jim Thome's, Alfonso Soriano's, Ryan Howard's, Carlos Delgado's, or Carlos Beltran's, then I'd have to agree.

[fromwithin]

There is your MVP right there:

Justin Morneau's two-run double turned a one-run deficit into a one-run lead in the midst of an eighth-inning rally that left the Twins a 7-5 winner over the A's. It was Morneau's 18th game-winning RBI of the season, tying Alex Rodriguez for the American League lead, and the eighth one of them that came in the eighth inning or later, the most in the majors.

So in other words, the twins would most likely have lost at least 8 games without morneau. Also notice who he is tied with for the lead, not a man named Jeter.

[xbrokendownx]

haha ARod leads the AL in game-winning RBIs



theres a stat you'll never see in an NY newspaper

[Scott Weber]

haha ARod leads the AL in game-winning RBIs



theres a stat you'll never see in an NY newspaper
very true

[Split2nd]

I see where you're coming from, but you have to look at who Ichiro lost to that year. Vladdy had 39 HRs, 126 RBIs, 15 SB and a .337 BA. He was also responsible for the Angels making the playoffs that year. Those numbers are better than most of the candidates this year.

Semantics, that was just a minor point in my argument... and as bigmike said, Ortiz, Hafner, Thome, and Dye are all having just as good of years as Vlad had that year.