Arizona utility commissioner threatens to cut L.A.'s power

[smeed03]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37233039

An Arizona utility commissioner said he's willing to pull the plug on Los Angeles if the city goes through with a boycott of his state.

In a letter to the city of LA, a member of Arizona's power commission said he would ask Arizona utility companies to cut off the power supply to Los Angeles. LA gets about 25 percent of its power from Arizona.

"That is one commissioner who has that idea -- whether he can do that or not is another idea," said LA Councilman Dennis Zine. "They are the ones who have to make the move, not us."

The commissioner's power grid play is in response to the city's approval of a resolution directing city staff to consider which contracts with Arizona can be terminated.

Here's part Arizona Corporation Commission member Gary Pierce's letter to the mayor:

If an economic boycott is truly what you desire, I will be happy to encourage Arizona utilities to renegotiate your power agreements so Los Angeles no longer receives any power from Arizona-based generation.

I am confident that Arizona’s utilities would be happy to take those electrons off your hands. If, however, you find that the City Council lacks the strength of its convictions to turn off the lights in Los Angeles and boycott Arizona power, please reconsider the wisdom of attempting to harm Arizona’s economy.

The full text was sent to the blog Hot Air.

Mayor Villaraigosa is in Washington D.C., meeting with Mexican President Felipe Calderon, but his deputy chief of staff issued the following statement: "The mayor stands strongly behind the city council and he will not respond to threats from the state that has isolated itself from an America that values freedom, liberty and basic civil rights."

Councilmember Tom LaBonge said he'd like to talk with Pierce. LaBonge said the city needs to look into its long standing utility agreements with Arizona.

Other California cities, including Oakland and San Francisco, have passed similar measures.

On Tuesday, Berkeley became the latest California city to boycott Arizona. The City Council voted unanimously to restrict staff from traveling to the state on city business.

SB 1070 -- here's the text of the law -- empowers local law enforcement to check the immigration status of suspects they have stopped for other reasons if there is a reasonable suspicion they are in the country illegally. The law specifically bars police from racial profiling.

The Arizona Republic newspaper recently asked a panel of experts to outline how the law would work in real-world situations. The experts' interpretations varied when it came to what happens at the point a law encforcement officer can or should ask about a person's status.

It's good to see Arizona fight back even though it probably won't happen

[Mibabalou]

haha thats great

[DrStrong]

Nothing will amount from this.

[pnkhrdwndr]

This is like the episode of the office when Michael tries to threaten Jan by with-holding sex from her.

[MyNameIsRoss]

This is like the episode of the office when Michael tries to threaten Jan by with-holding sex from her.

..yah jus liek thatt...

[DrStrong]

Its such a childish thing to do, its an ultimatum.

[Justin_stacy]

priceless. good for him, if la wants to take a swing they've got to be prepared to play the game.

[caveBEAR]

Meh, California is 99% hippies anyway. They don't need contrivances like 'electricity'.

[Sean Rizzo]

Nothing like a boycott that isn't really a boycott.

[Justin_stacy]

Meh, California is 99% hippies anyway. They don't need contrivances like 'electricity'.

hahaha

[Sean Rizzo]

Its such a childish thing to do, its an ultimatum.
Last time I checked, the boycott was an ultimatum against the illegal immigration law.

[Justin_stacy]

Its such a childish thing to do, its an ultimatum.

you ask tate, that thread's basically (un!)dead...and the guy that doesn't like you doesn't post any more.

[DrStrong]

you ask tate, that thread's basically (un!)dead...and the guy that doesn't like you doesn't post any more.
Mark doesnt post anymore? I saw his tagline for his user name, "stupid fuck / passionate enthusiast". i was laughing.

EDIT: I've gotten on Jason's bad side, because unlike most, i disagree with him about things. So he wont answer me haha.

[Justin_stacy]

ya no one really does (speedo and wake are about it). i tried to keep it alive but there's not alot of horror news going on right now.

[DrStrong]

ya no one really does (speedo and wake are about it). i tried to keep it alive but there's not alot of horror news going on right now.
Crazy.

[zachff]

That commissioner can spout off at the mouth all he wants, but do you really think those private utilities companies are going to forgo that much fucking money? Come on.

[caveBEAR]

That commissioner can spout off at the mouth all he wants, but do you really think those private utilities companies are going to forgo that much fucking money? Come on.

Exactly.

[RX XR]

That commissioner can spout off at the mouth all he wants, but do you really think those private utilities companies are going to forgo that much fucking money? Come on.

Agree... Cali and Arizona need to chill out a little bit.

[ghostyouare]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37233039



It's good to see Arizona fight back even though it probably won't happen
Good to see Arizona fight back on a fundamentally injust bill?

[<*)))><]

What is produced in Arizona that can be boycotted? Maybe Steve Nash Jerseys but besides that they really got nothing.

[smeed03]

Good to see Arizona fight back on a fundamentally injust bill?

I suppose you mean unjust....but what is "injust" about this bill? It mirrors the FEDERAL law which isn't being enforced. Arizona has a problem with illegal immigration and violence caused by the illegals and the federal government won't enforce their own law. I see nothing wrong with Arizona trying to solve their problem while the Obama administration just sits back and bitches about it. I'm not just blaming Obama for not enforcing the law, many administrations before him failed to enforce it. If the law had been enforced on the federal level like it was supposed to be then Arizona wouldn't need to.

[Machu505]

Well that's a shame. Arizona's racists ought not force their prejudice upon the people of Los Angeles.

[Gumbyjag]

Just let it be already. Arizonans don't like it either, you don't see us boycotting our state. It's that kind of mindset that starts wars. You and I may not agree with the law, but it's what we have to follow. We now must find ways to co-exist under it with the same goal in mind.

[Justin_stacy]

What is produced in Arizona that can be boycotted? Maybe Steve Nash Jerseys but besides that they really got nothing.

that would probably be boycotting china.

Just let it be already. Arizonans don't like it either,

that's not true on a state or national level.

[Gumbyjag]

that's not true on a state or national level.

you're right, the majority of us do. but not all of us, and as for the minority, we just have to grin and bear it. i mean, that's democracy right?

[phillipjacob]

wouldnt cutting power off to california just hurt the arizona economy even more though

[azlisa]

i've lived here my entire life and I support the bill. I'm sick of idiots in California and around the country who are boycotting our state which is only hurting the people who live here and who didn't do anything at all. If you don't live here, you don't know what goes on. And I'm sick of people saying that we're all racists and the bill is racism. HAVE YOU READ THE BILL? I guarantee you didn't, because the majority of people haven't. it says nothing about just stopping someone on the street because they're of a different color skin. There has to be probable cause. among other things.

and so what if you have to carry identification with you? I, as well as everyone else in the country, has to carry a form of ID and you have to use it all the time...when you get pulled over, when you go to the DMV, etc. Should I be offended when the police officer asks me for an ID? Come on. and don't forget...if you're in Mexico or other countries around the world and the cops get a hold of you for some reason, you're screwed and you'll get thrown in jail. There's too much bad stuff going on in this state that you won't know about unless you lived or live here, so read the damn bill before you go make an ass out of yourself.

GO ARIZONA!

[deFobbed14yrs]

too funny

[smeed03]

i've lived here my entire life and I support the bill. I'm sick of idiots in California and around the country who are boycotting our state which is only hurting the people who live here and who didn't do anything at all. If you don't live here, you don't know what goes on. And I'm sick of people saying that we're all racists and the bill is racism. HAVE YOU READ THE BILL? I guarantee you didn't, because the majority of people haven't. it says nothing about just stopping someone on the street because they're of a different color skin. There has to be probable cause. among other things.

and so what if you have to carry identification with you? I, as well as everyone else in the country, has to carry a form of ID and you have to use it all the time...when you get pulled over, when you go to the DMV, etc. Should I be offended when the police officer asks me for an ID? Come on. and don't forget...if you're in Mexico or other countries around the world and the cops get a hold of you for some reason, you're screwed and you'll get thrown in jail. There's too much bad stuff going on in this state that you won't know about unless you lived or live here, so read the damn bill before you go make an ass out of yourself.

GO ARIZONA!

THIS....minus the living in Arizona bit. California is already hurting financially and I hope their boycotts of Arizona come back to bite them in the ass

[Roboman]

i've lived here my entire life and I support the bill. I'm sick of idiots in California and around the country who are boycotting our state which is only hurting the people who live here and who didn't do anything at all. If you don't live here, you don't know what goes on. And I'm sick of people saying that we're all racists and the bill is racism. HAVE YOU READ THE BILL? I guarantee you didn't, because the majority of people haven't. it says nothing about just stopping someone on the street because they're of a different color skin. There has to be probable cause. among other things.

and so what if you have to carry identification with you? I, as well as everyone else in the country, has to carry a form of ID and you have to use it all the time...when you get pulled over, when you go to the DMV, etc. Should I be offended when the police officer asks me for an ID? Come on. and don't forget...if you're in Mexico or other countries around the world and the cops get a hold of you for some reason, you're screwed and you'll get thrown in jail. There's too much bad stuff going on in this state that you won't know about unless you lived or live here, so read the damn bill before you go make an ass out of yourself.

GO ARIZONA!

Actually, it was already mentioned in the first thread about this bill that probable cause is required. I think the problem many people have with that is what exactly is probable cause?. Unless the law specifically states "the person must be robbing a bank" or another specific action, it simply sounds like it's setting up a situation where the police officers take matters into their own hands and stop whoever they want. "Probable cause" isn't the most objective term out there. I'm not really sure what side to take on this issue, I'm just saying that the "probable cause" bit wasn't completely unknown.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Actually, it was already mentioned in the first thread about this bill that probable cause is required. I think the problem many people have with that is what exactly is probable cause?. Unless the law specifically states "the person must be robbing a bank" or another specific action, it simply sounds like it's setting up a situation where the police officers take matters into their own hands and stop whoever they want. "Probable cause" isn't the most objective term out there. I'm not really sure what side to take on this issue, I'm just saying that the "probable cause" bit wasn't completely unknown.

According to Rush Limbaugh, officers will be able to ask for papers if they see a couple young Hispanics just hanging around a street corner.

[FueledByFrodo]

i've lived here my entire life and I support the bill. I'm sick of idiots in California and around the country who are boycotting our state which is only hurting the people who live here and who didn't do anything at all. If you don't live here, you don't know what goes on. And I'm sick of people saying that we're all racists and the bill is racism. HAVE YOU READ THE BILL? I guarantee you didn't, because the majority of people haven't. it says nothing about just stopping someone on the street because they're of a different color skin. There has to be probable cause. among other things.

and so what if you have to carry identification with you? I, as well as everyone else in the country, has to carry a form of ID and you have to use it all the time...when you get pulled over, when you go to the DMV, etc. Should I be offended when the police officer asks me for an ID? Come on. and don't forget...if you're in Mexico or other countries around the world and the cops get a hold of you for some reason, you're screwed and you'll get thrown in jail. There's too much bad stuff going on in this state that you won't know about unless you lived or live here, so read the damn bill before you go make an ass out of yourself.

GO ARIZONA!

Define probable cause. And "other things."

[smeed03]

Define probable cause. And "other things."



PROBABLE CAUSE
A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. The test the court of appeals employs to determine whether probable cause existed for purposes of arrest is whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. U.S. v. Puerta, 982 F.2d 1297, 1300 (9th Cir. 1992). In terms of seizure of items, probable cause merely requires that the facts available to the officer warrants a "man of reasonable caution" to conclude that certain items may be contraband or stolen property or useful as evidence of a crime. U.S. v. Dunn, 946 F.2d 615, 619 (9th Cir. 1991), cert. Denied, 112 S. Ct. 401 (1992).

It is undisputed that the Fourth Amendment, applicable to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment, prohibits an officer from making an arrest without probable cause. McKenzie v. Lamb, 738 F.2d 1005, 1007 (9th Cir. 1984). Probable cause exists when "the facts and circumstances within the arresting officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe that a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime." United States v. Hoyos, 892 F.2d 1387, 1392 (9th Cir. 1989), cert. denied, 489 U.S. 825 (1990) (citing United States v. Greene, 783 F.2d 1364, 1367 (9th Cir. 1986), cert. denied, 476 U.S. 1185 (1986)).

When there are grounds for suspicion that a person has committed a crime or misdemeanor, and public justice and the good of the community require that the matter should be examined, there is said to be a probable cause for, making a charge against the accused, however malicious the intention of the accuser may have been. And probable cause will be presumed till the contrary appears.

In an action, then, for a malicious prosecution, the plaintiff is bound to show total absence of probable cause, whether the original proceedings were civil or criminal.

--b--

THE 'LECTRIC LAW LIBRARY(tm) -- http://www.lectlaw.com

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p089.htm

[FueledByFrodo]

PROBABLE CAUSE
A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. The test the court of appeals employs to determine whether probable cause existed for purposes of arrest is whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. U.S. v. Puerta, 982 F.2d 1297, 1300 (9th Cir. 1992). In terms of seizure of items, probable cause merely requires that the facts available to the officer warrants a "man of reasonable caution" to conclude that certain items may be contraband or stolen property or useful as evidence of a crime. U.S. v. Dunn, 946 F.2d 615, 619 (9th Cir. 1991), cert. Denied, 112 S. Ct. 401 (1992).

It is undisputed that the Fourth Amendment, applicable to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment, prohibits an officer from making an arrest without probable cause. McKenzie v. Lamb, 738 F.2d 1005, 1007 (9th Cir. 1984). Probable cause exists when "the facts and circumstances within the arresting officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe that a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime." United States v. Hoyos, 892 F.2d 1387, 1392 (9th Cir. 1989), cert. denied, 489 U.S. 825 (1990) (citing United States v. Greene, 783 F.2d 1364, 1367 (9th Cir. 1986), cert. denied, 476 U.S. 1185 (1986)).

When there are grounds for suspicion that a person has committed a crime or misdemeanor, and public justice and the good of the community require that the matter should be examined, there is said to be a probable cause for, making a charge against the accused, however malicious the intention of the accuser may have been. And probable cause will be presumed till the contrary appears.

In an action, then, for a malicious prosecution, the plaintiff is bound to show total absence of probable cause, whether the original proceedings were civil or criminal.

--b--

THE 'LECTRIC LAW LIBRARY(tm) -- http://www.lectlaw.com

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p089.htm

Okay smart ass. Define it for the situation of illegal immigrants. I'd really love to know.

[smeed03]

Okay smart ass. Define it for the situation of illegal immigrants. I'd really love to know.

how about if a police officer stops a van that was speeding and it happened to be traveling down a road known to be used alot by people smuggling in illegal aliens. The officer approaches the van and finds that it has 12 people crammed inside and none of them have identification on them. I'm pretty sure that gives the police officer reasonable cause to seek proof of citizenship.

[caveBEAR]

how about if a police officer stops a van that was speeding and it happened to be traveling down a road known to be used alot by people smuggling in illegal aliens. The officer approaches the van and finds that it has 12 people crammed inside and none of them have identification on them. I'm pretty sure that gives the police officer reasonable cause to seek proof of citizenship.

Indeed. No one has a problem with that scenario. How about the (inevitable) event when a random Hispanic person is stopped for bullshit reasons and asked for his papers?

Have you ever been stopped by a cop who was fishing for reasons without any probable cause? I have, multiple times, and I'm white. I just happened to be cursed with an old, shitty car. You know how many lights have been flashed in my car looking for shit? Is 'old car' probable cause for that?

Police officers have been known to (occasionally) abuse their powers, and those abuses could be devastating in this situation/scenario.

[FueledByFrodo]

This scenario:
how about if a police officer stops a van that was speeding and it happened to be traveling down a road known to be used alot by people smuggling in illegal aliens. The officer approaches the van and finds that it has 12 people crammed inside and none of them have identification on them. I'm pretty sure that gives the police officer reasonable cause to seek proof of citizenship.

Will clearly not happen as often as this scenario:
Indeed. No one has a problem with that scenario. How about the (inevitable) event when a random Hispanic person is stopped for bullshit reasons and asked for his papers?

Have you ever been stopped by a cop who was fishing for reasons without any probable cause? I have, multiple times, and I'm white. I just happened to be cursed with an old, shitty car. You know how many lights have been flashed in my car looking for shit? Is 'old car' probable cause for that?

Police officers have been known to (occasionally) abuse their powers, and those abuses could be devastating in this situation/scenario.

[caveBEAR]

This scenario:

Will clearly not happen as often as this scenario:

I've twice been stopped and searched (probably for weed) because my 'tail light was out'. In both cases my tail light was in perfect working order. It's just the easiest reason they can give to do what they want.

[samsara]

Ugh this whole thing makes me sick. Something is going to happen and its going to get bad.

[smeed03]

Indeed. No one has a problem with that scenario. How about the (inevitable) event when a random Hispanic person is stopped for bullshit reasons and asked for his papers?

Have you ever been stopped by a cop who was fishing for reasons without any probable cause? I have, multiple times, and I'm white. I just happened to be cursed with an old, shitty car. You know how many lights have been flashed in my car looking for shit? Is 'old car' probable cause for that?

Police officers have been known to (occasionally) abuse their powers, and those abuses could be devastating in this situation/scenario.

Depending on how shitty your car is, I don't see the problem with you being stopped. If your car is so bad that it might cause traffic problems or hazards to other drivers (i.e. blowing out smoke, cutting off randomly, lights not working properly) then you should be stopped. Cops flash lights in cars for their protection, they don't know what a person has in there.

Problem: Getting stopped because of a "shitty car". Solution: Fix "shitty car" or find another mode of transportation.

Problem: Being asked to show proof that you're here legally. Solution: Be here legally

[FueledByFrodo]

I've twice been stopped and searched (probably for weed) because my 'tail light was out'. In both cases my tail light was in perfect working order. It's just the easiest reason they can give to do what they want.

It's easy for the police to say, "Hey, he looks like he smokes weed," or "Hey, he looks like an illegal immigrant," and just invent a reason to pull someone over. It's pretty bullshit.

[FueledByFrodo]

Problem: Being asked to show proof that you're here legally. Solution: Be here legally

Yet some people who ARE here legally will be questioned for no reason other than that they "look" illegal.

[smeed03]

Yet some people who ARE here legally will be questioned for no reason other than that they "look" illegal.

how can you look illegal? Illegal isn't a race or a skin color. Anybody can be here illegally, they can be white, black, brown, any color or nationality. This law gives police officers the right to ask ANYBODY that they believe may be here illegally to prove that they are American citizens, not just people that appear to be mexican. The law specifically says that a person can't be stopped because of their race.

[FueledByFrodo]

how can you look illegal? Illegal isn't a race or a skin color. Anybody can be here illegally, they can be white, black, brown, any color or nationality. This law gives police officers the right to ask ANYBODY that they believe may be here illegally to prove that they are American citizens, not just people that appear to be mexican. The law specifically says that a person can't be stopped because of their race.

That would be why "look" is in quotations, you fucking moron. I know anybody can be here illegally, but do you really think police will target non-Hispanic illegals? Especially in a state that borders Mexico? And the law states that, but a cop can easily invent a "You were speeding," or a "Your taillight was out," sort of situation.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

how can you look illegal? Illegal isn't a race or a skin color. Anybody can be here illegally, they can be white, black, brown, any color or nationality. This law gives police officers the right to ask ANYBODY that they believe may be here illegally to prove that they are American citizens, not just people that appear to be mexican. The law specifically says that a person can't be stopped because of their race.

Let's be real here. How many white people are asked if they are in this country illegally when approached by a police office?

[vivatoto56]

how can you look illegal? Illegal isn't a race or a skin color. Anybody can be here illegally, they can be white, black, brown, any color or nationality. This law gives police officers the right to ask ANYBODY that they believe may be here illegally to prove that they are American citizens, not just people that appear to be mexican. The law specifically says that a person can't be stopped because of their race.

And the bible specifically states that Jesus was killed then brought back to life after 3 days because he's the son of a magician who created the world.

[smeed03]

And the bible specifically states that Jesus was killed then brought back to life after 3 days because he's the son of a magician who created the world.

I missed the magician part, you must be reading a California Bible

[smeed03]

That would be why "look" is in quotations, you fucking moron. I know anybody can be here illegally, but do you really think police will target non-Hispanic illegals? Especially in a state that borders Mexico? And the law states that, but a cop can easily invent a "You were speeding," or a "Your taillight was out," sort of situation.

Listen cock blast, seeing as 1/3 of Arizona's population is Hispanic, I can see where a "slightly" larger amount of people being asked will be Hispanic. Anybody that can't understand and speak english has as much to worry about as someone that looks hispanic, seeing as that is one of the requirements to become an American citizen. Just because the police have to right to question people doesn't mean that they will question EVERYBODY. If you are here legally then you have nothing to worry about.

[Kozzy333]

Every smart American come move to Canada. We got lots of room for you.

[FueledByFrodo]

Listen cock blast, seeing as 1/3 of Arizona's population is Hispanic, I can see where a "slightly" larger amount of people being asked will be Hispanic. Anybody that can't understand and speak english has as much to worry about as someone that looks hispanic, seeing as that is one of the requirements to become an American citizen. Just because the police have to right to question people doesn't mean that they will question EVERYBODY. If you are here legally then you have nothing to worry about.

This bill will clearly lead to racial profiling. If you're here legally and you are Hispanic or aren't the best at English, you'll be profiled.

[samsara]

Every smart American come move to Canada. We got lots of room for you.

I'm in.

[vivatoto56]

Listen cock blast, seeing as 1/3 of Arizona's population is Hispanic, I can see where a "slightly" larger amount of people being asked will be Hispanic. Anybody that can't understand and speak english has as much to worry about as someone that looks hispanic, seeing as that is one of the requirements to become an American citizen. Just because the police have to right to question people doesn't mean that they will question EVERYBODY. If you are here legally then you have nothing to worry about.

I don't think it's really a problem of people worrying about getting in trouble with the law as much as it is about profiling.

Would you walk up to a hispanic person and call them a wetback? I'm assuming not, but why not? It doesn't hurt them physically in anyway, they're not going to end up in jail because you said the words.

Sometimes there are more repercussions than appear on the surface. I wouldn't expect someone who uses the phrase "cock blast" to understand that, but it would help if you would start being a little more. . .real.

[vivatoto56]

Every smart American come move to Canada. We got lots of room for you.

I hear there's no Canada like French Canada.

[caveBEAR]

how can you look illegal? Illegal isn't a race or a skin color.

Tell that to racist Americans.

[caveBEAR]

Depending on how shitty your car is, I don't see the problem with you being stopped. If your car is so bad that it might cause traffic problems or hazards to other drivers (i.e. blowing out smoke, cutting off randomly, lights not working properly) then you should be stopped. Cops flash lights in cars for their protection, they don't know what a person has in there.

Did you grease up your hands? Because I threw you a point, but you totally missed it.

The cops weren't stopping me because they were concerned my car was a hazard to society, they stopped me because I had a 1997 Ford Escort, with different colored panels, etc., and were fishing for a reason to search me. They made up an excuse about my tag-lights/tail-lights being out (they weren't) and promptly snooped around.

When they flashed lights in my car they asked me to lift up things and move them, hoping to find something they could use as 'paraphernalia' and then take the car apart.


The same thing is going to happen to Hispanic people in Arizona, except now, by not having paperwork on them, they can get hauled off to jail.

You either don't care or don't get it, so none of this is going to matter to you.

[vivatoto56]

Did you grease up your hands? Because I threw you a point, but you totally missed it.



That made me laugh.

[saysmydoctor]

That commissioner can spout off at the mouth all he wants, but do you really think those private utilities companies are going to forgo that much fucking money? Come on.
/thread

[smeed03]

The same thing is going to happen to Hispanic people in Arizona, except now, by not having paperwork on them, they can get hauled off to jail.



Well I guess they should carry their id on them at all times like everyone else is supposed to do already. Why call racism for something that hasn't even happened?

[Kozzy333]

Well I guess they should carry their id on them at all times like everyone else is supposed to do already. Why call racism for something that hasn't even happened?

Since when do you have to carry id with you at all times?

[smeed03]

Since when do you have to carry id with you at all times?

it's called a driver's license

[caveBEAR]

Well I guess they should carry their id on them at all times like everyone else is supposed to do already. Why call racism for something that hasn't even happened?

The point is that illegal immigrants who aren't breaking the law are going to be fucked with; however, you see their mere existence here as breaking the law and enough reason to search them, so there's going to be no changing your mind on the subject.

There's plenty of reasons that your viewpoint is fucked, and feel free to read this thread, named 'Fuck Arizona' (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=1662112) for all those reasons. There's plenty of people in there sharing your viewpoints as well, if you wish to have someone preach to your choir.

[Machu505]

Drivers' licenses can't prove citizenship. Illegal immigrants can get them in New Mexico.

[caveBEAR]

it's called a driver's license

Drivers' licenses can't prove citizenship. Illegal immigrants can get them in New Mexico.

And that as well. Hispanic citizens only carrying their drivers license (100% legal) can now be fucked with for not having the papers that they legally aren't required to have or carry, you know, being American citizens and all.

[Kozzy333]

it's called a driver's license

What if you aren't driving?

[smeed03]

What if you aren't driving?

every time I go out, I have my wallet with me and inside my wallet is my driver's license

[samsara]

every time I go out, I have my wallet with me and inside my wallet is my driver's license

What if they dont have a drivers license to begin with?

[caveBEAR]

every time I go out, I have my wallet with me and inside my wallet is my driver's license

We just not going to acknowledge the posts above?

OK, cool.

[smeed03]

then they should take the time and go get one, or they shouldn't complain when they are asked for it and there's problems because they don't have one

[smeed03]

And that as well. Hispanic citizens only carrying their drivers license (100% legal) can now be fucked with for not having the papers that they legally aren't required to have or carry, you know, being American citizens and all.

they are given paperwork when the become LEGAL US citizens, what's so difficult about carrying a copy of that proof of citizenship?

[caveBEAR]

they are given paperwork when the become LEGAL US citizens, what's so difficult about carrying a copy of that proof of citizenship?

Some people are born here and will never need paperwork. However, they will be lumped in with the group of people who 'look illegal'.

[smeed03]

Some people are born here and will never need paperwork. However, they will be lumped in with the group of people who 'look illegal'.

If they were born here then they are legal and have nothing to worry about. They will still have proof that they were born here. If you go to another country and the police ask to see your passport and you show them, you're fine but if you don't have it then you have have a problem. That's no different than showing proof of citizenship here.

[ChaplainTappman]

If they were born here then they are legal and have nothing to worry about. They will still have proof that they were born here. If you go to another country and the police ask to see your passport and you show them, you're fine but if you don't have it then you have have a problem. That's no different than showing proof of citizenship here.

i dont think you get the fact that without proof you can be hauled off to jail. would you like to go to jail because you look hispanic and didnt have an original copy of your birth certificate on you when you went out today? unless youre into having sex with men in prison cells, i dont think you would. and you should also understand that drivers licenses do not prove citizenship.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

it's called a driver's license

I have a ton of friends who grew up in New York City and never obtained a driver's license. They've relied on public transportation or other friends if they want to travel across the country. You are not required to obtain a driver's license.

Also, I'm going to assume you'll bring up the the social security card. Not many people carry around their SSN card. Mine is in a shoebox along with my birth certificate inside a cigar box in my parent's attic.

[smeed03]

i dont think you get the fact that without proof you can be hauled off to jail. would you like to go to jail because you look hispanic and didnt have an original copy of your birth certificate on you when you went out today? unless youre into having sex with men in prison cells, i dont think you would. and you should also understand that drivers licenses do not prove citizenship.


I don't think you get the fact that if you're legal, it isn't hard to get proof to show that you are. Keep it in your car, because that's most likely where you're going to get stopped by the police...or you could be robbing a bank or something and not have it on you but you'll be going to jail anyway so you can get that cleared up then.

[smeed03]

I have a ton of friends who grew up in New York City and never obtained a driver's license. They've relied on public transportation or other friends if they want to travel across the country. You are not required to obtain a driver's license.

Also, I'm going to assume you'll bring up the the social security card. Not many people carry around their SSN card. Mine is in a shoebox along with my birth certificate inside a cigar box in my parent's attic.

they don't have to get a driver's license....i'm sure they have a ID of some sort proving they are who they say they are. Well, unlike you, I carry my SSN card on me at all times, it's small and fits right in my wallet along with my ID

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

they don't have to get a driver's license....i'm sure they have a ID of some sort proving they are who they say they are. Well, unlike you, I carry my SSN card on me at all times, it's small and fits right in my wallet along with my ID

Okay. I'm going to call you a personally responsible person. You're in a small minority, sadly.

[caveBEAR]

they don't have to get a driver's license....i'm sure they have a ID of some sort proving they are who they say they are. Well, unlike you, I carry my SSN card on me at all times, it's small and fits right in my wallet along with my ID

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha :lol: ha ha ha, you're a walking stolen identity case waiting to happen.

[ChaplainTappman]

I don't think you get the fact that if you're legal, it isn't hard to get proof to show that you are. Keep it in your car, because that's most likely where you're going to get stopped by the police...or you could be robbing a bank or something and not have it on you but you'll be going to jail anyway so you can get that cleared up then.

so they should have to get proof of their citizenship simply because they might be suspected of being illegal? i'm sorry, i dont see why i, as an american citizen, should ever be required to carry an ID on me because i look like i'm different or because i have trouble speaking english. this is a basic infringement on people's rights and i can't see how you can support it. even if they do cause more crime (which isn't true to begin with, the crime rate stats do not increase with illegals) i dont see why innocent people should be punished for other people's mistakes.

[smeed03]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha :lol: ha ha ha, you're a walking stolen identity case waiting to happen.

Nah, I'm a responsible person. I like to keep my info around to prove who I am in case I need to. If legal immigrants in Arizona keep some of their info on them and show it when asked then they will be fine.

[smeed03]

so they should have to get proof of their citizenship simply because they might be suspected of being illegal? i'm sorry, i dont see why i, as an american citizen, should ever be required to carry an ID on me because i look like i'm different or because i have trouble speaking english. this is a basic infringement on people's rights and i can't see how you can support it. even if they do cause more crime (which isn't true to begin with, the crime rate stats do not increase with illegals) i dont see why innocent people should be punished for other people's mistakes.

Like I said before, if they are legal then they don't have to worry about getting proof because they will already have it unless of course they lost it. A person should carry a ID to make it easier in case they are stopped, that makes the process a lot quicker. Cop asks for ID, person shows ID, person checks out, then they are fine. If you don't have an ID it makes the situation a lot more time consuming.

[ChaplainTappman]

Like I said before, if they are legal then they don't have to worry about getting proof because they will already have it unless of course they lost it. A person should carry a ID to make it easier in case they are stopped, that makes the process a lot quicker. Cop asks for ID, person shows ID, person checks out, then they are fine. If you don't have an ID it makes the situation a lot more time consuming.

if i am born here i do not need an ID proving my citizenship. why should i? i was born here. if i need one because my heritage might get me pulled over and questioned, that is literally racism. on top of the fact imprisoning someone because they do not have any ID is inherently wrong because THEY ARE CITIZENS and live in AMERICA where people cannot be arbitrarily stopped and questioned. that's the problem at hand, not whether it takes a long time.

[caveBEAR]

Nah, I'm a responsible person. I like to keep my info around to prove who I am in case I need to. If legal immigrants in Arizona keep some of their info on them and show it when asked then they will be fine.

You keep your SSN card in your wallet, right? You do realize if you ever misplaced your wallet, or had it stolen from you, that someone has your name and SSN, i.e., the keys to your kingdom.

Good luck with that though, at least you won't be deported.

[azlisa]

Actually, it was already mentioned in the first thread about this bill that probable cause is required. I think the problem many people have with that is what exactly is probable cause?. Unless the law specifically states "the person must be robbing a bank" or another specific action, it simply sounds like it's setting up a situation where the police officers take matters into their own hands and stop whoever they want. "Probable cause" isn't the most objective term out there. I'm not really sure what side to take on this issue, I'm just saying that the "probable cause" bit wasn't completely unknown.

I see what you're saying. I just read this today. http://ktar.com/index.php?nid=6&sid=1295877

[azlisa]

Define probable cause. And "other things."

first off: http://ktar.com/index.php?nid=6&sid=1295877

second off: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

[azlisa]

I suppose you mean unjust....but what is "injust" about this bill? It mirrors the FEDERAL law which isn't being enforced. Arizona has a problem with illegal immigration and violence caused by the illegals and the federal government won't enforce their own law. I see nothing wrong with Arizona trying to solve their problem while the Obama administration just sits back and bitches about it. I'm not just blaming Obama for not enforcing the law, many administrations before him failed to enforce it. If the law had been enforced on the federal level like it was supposed to be then Arizona wouldn't need to.

THANK YOU! You said everything that I should of included in mine.

[caveBEAR]

It pretty much all boils down to this;

http://www.nerve.com/files/uploads/CRAYOLA-ARIZONA.jpg

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Like I said before, if they are legal then they don't have to worry about getting proof because they will already have it unless of course they lost it. A person should carry a ID to make it easier in case they are stopped, that makes the process a lot quicker. Cop asks for ID, person shows ID, person checks out, then they are fine. If you don't have an ID it makes the situation a lot more time consuming.

I think the fact of the matter is that Hispanics are being targeted in general. If you are Hispanic living in a border state, those of authority will question your legality based on your skin color. Legal or not, you are being questioned. If I was a legal citizen of Hispanic decent, I wouldn't want to be questioned by police at all times even though I know I wouldn't be arrested. You mentioned that Hispanics make up 1/3 of the Arizona population. Does that mean white people in Arizona are likely to be questioned twice as much if they are in this country illegally?

[caveBEAR]

I see what you're saying. I just read this today. http://ktar.com/index.php?nid=6&sid=1295877

Cool article. Here's the first paragraph;

PHOENIX - Arizona police officers will be taught that race and ethnicity cannot be used when enforcing a new illegal immigration law, the state's top police training official said Wednesday - without offering a definition of reasonable suspicion that someone is in the country illegally.

Hmmm...still a little vague on 'probable cause'.

[azlisa]

THIS....minus the living in Arizona bit. California is already hurting financially and I hope their boycotts of Arizona come back to bite them in the ass

Meeeee too. SO SICK of it.

[FueledByFrodo]

first off: http://ktar.com/index.php?nid=6&sid=1295877

second off: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

From the bill:
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON
IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED
ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

Nowhere does it define the qualifications for "probable cause," or "reasonable suspicion."

[azlisa]

Cool article. Here's the first paragraph;

Hmmm...still a little vague on 'probable cause'.

Isn't this common sense? Getting pulled over, seeing 20 people crammed into a pickup truck, finding a drop house (which are common), etc. Curious to know why do you think that police officers are going to just see someone on the street and ask them for ID. That isn't what this law is saying its going to do.

[caveBEAR]

From the bill:

Nowhere does it define the qualifications for "probable cause," or "reasonable suspicion."

But...but...but...they talked about it...and they promise they won't be racist about the whole thing...

:rolleyes:

[azlisa]

From the bill:


Nowhere does it define the qualifications for "probable cause," or "reasonable suspicion."

Read my comment on this page.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Isn't this common sense? Getting pulled over, seeing 20 people crammed into a pickup truck, finding a drop house (which are common), etc. Curious to know why do you think that police officers are going to just see someone on the street and ask them for ID. That isn't what this law is saying its going to do.

You know what. I'm going to just take this as it is. The law is not yet in effect. I'm gonna keep my eyes and ears open as to how it is enforced. I sure hope there is no discrimination or racial profiling. But if there is... BANG! ZOOM! STRAIGHT TO THA MOON!

[caveBEAR]

Isn't this common sense? Getting pulled over, seeing 20 people crammed into a pickup truck, finding a drop house (which are common), etc. Curious to know why do you think that police officers are going to just see someone on the street and ask them for ID. That isn't what this law is saying its going to do.

:sigh: I've already gone over this exact point with someone, so here's my responses to them;

Indeed. No one has a problem with that scenario. How about the (inevitable) event when a random Hispanic person is stopped for bullshit reasons and asked for his papers?

Have you ever been stopped by a cop who was fishing for reasons without any probable cause? I have, multiple times, and I'm white. I just happened to be cursed with an old, shitty car. You know how many lights have been flashed in my car looking for shit? Is 'old car' probable cause for that?

Police officers have been known to (occasionally) abuse their powers, and those abuses could be devastating in this situation/scenario.

The cops weren't stopping me because they were concerned my car was a hazard to society, they stopped me because I had a 1997 Ford Escort, with different colored panels, etc., and were fishing for a reason to search me. They made up an excuse about my tag-lights/tail-lights being out (they weren't) and promptly snooped around.

When they flashed lights in my car they asked me to lift up things and move them, hoping to find something they could use as 'paraphernalia' and then take the car apart.


The same thing is going to happen to Hispanic people in Arizona, except now, by not having paperwork on them, they can get hauled off to jail.

You either don't care or don't get it, so none of this is going to matter to you.

The 'probable cause' the officers had to stop and search me can be used against Hispanic people in Arizona.

No one's bitching about the officers who find a car with 20 people in it or a drop house. We are bitching about the inevitable racism and abuses of power that are going to come from this bill. To think this isn't inevitable is ridiculously fucking naive.

[samsara]

So I guess you have no problems with the illegals in this country that kill tons of people every year from drunk driving, raping and murdering innocent people on the streets, don't pay taxes, take jobs from actual citizens of this country, run dangerous gangs and run drug cartels on our streets.

Will you please get informed and shut the fuck up.

[caveBEAR]

So I guess you have no problems with the illegals in this country that kill tons of people every year from drunk driving, raping and murdering innocent people on the streets, don't pay taxes, take jobs from actual citizens of this country, run dangerous gangs and run drug cartels on our streets.

:lol:

Ha ha ha ha ha, is this a joke? I'm sorry, I don't respond well to stupid posts like this. Good thing, too. For a moment I thought I'd have to take you seriously.

So I guess you have no problems with the illegals in this country that kill tons of people every year from drunk driving, raping and murdering innocent people on the streets

This made my night, though. I needed a good laugh.

[azlisa]

Will you please get informed and shut the fuck up.

Right, because that stuff NEVER happens.

[samsara]

Right, because that stuff NEVER happens.

People that ARE legal do the same shit.

[caveBEAR]

Right, because that stuff NEVER happens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

Read up.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

So I guess you have no problems with the illegals in this country that kill tons of people every year from drunk driving, raping and murdering innocent people on the streets, don't pay taxes, take jobs from actual citizens of this country, run dangerous gangs and run drug cartels on our streets.

To be fair... legal white citizens commit the same crimes. Should we deport them? Oh, and illegals pay taxes.

[FueledByFrodo]

Isn't this common sense? Getting pulled over, seeing 20 people crammed into a pickup truck, finding a drop house (which are common), etc. Curious to know why do you think that police officers are going to just see someone on the street and ask them for ID. That isn't what this law is saying its going to do.
Actually, it's almost exactly what the law says it's going to do. They can arrest them without a warrant under "reasonable suspicion," which can easily be fabricated.

So I guess you have no problems with the illegals in this country that kill tons of people every year from drunk driving, raping and murdering innocent people on the streets, don't pay taxes, take jobs from actual citizens of this country, run dangerous gangs and run drug cartels on our streets.
Not one of these points make sense. Literally zero of them have any logic whatsoever. Good try though.

By the way, is Ryan around? This thread should really be combined into the "Fuck Arizona" thread.

[caveBEAR]

Ha ha ha ha, I forgot this thread doesn't have the chorus of;

They pay taxes.

Good times.

[azlisa]

To be fair... legal white citizens commit the same crimes. Should we deport them? Oh, and illegals pay taxes.

Of course they do! but if you're legal you get thrown in jail, like they should. To say "should we deport them?" is just dumb.

Yeah, all 500,000 of them. Riiiiight.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Yeah, all 500,000 of them. Riiiiight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_tax

[FueledByFrodo]

Of course they do! but if you're legal you get thrown in jail, like they should. To say "should we deport them?" is just dumb.

Yeah, all 500,000 of them. Riiiiight.

Yes, and all 307,006,550 (as of 2009) legal Americans pay taxes.

P.S. They pay taxes.

[samsara]

Of course they do! but if you're legal you get thrown in jail, like they should. To say "should we deport them?" is just dumb.

Yeah, all 500,000 of them. Riiiiight.

They pay taxes BTW.

[azlisa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_tax

Income tax and sales tax are two different things...

[caveBEAR]

Of course they do! but if you're legal you get thrown in jail, like they should. To say "should we deport them?" is just dumb.

Yeah, all 500,000 of them. Riiiiight.

Are you suggesting there's some loophole where illegal immigrants are just set free? If they were out drunkenly raping babies or whatever exaggerated bullshit you posted...they'd be deported.

Right after they get done paying their taxes.

[caveBEAR]

Income tax and sales tax are two different things...

Indeed, and they don't receive most of the benefits citizens get by paying income tax. As well, most jobs that pay under the table, therefore avoiding sales tax, have dismally low wages.

[FueledByFrodo]

Income tax and sales tax are two different things...

Actually you said:
don't pay taxes

Nowhere did you mention the word "income."

[caveBEAR]

Yes, and all 307,006,550 (as of 2009) legal Americans pay taxes.

P.S. They pay taxes.

Let's take a moment to let that sink in.

Bodies in America without illegal immigrants; 307,006,550.
Bodies in America with illegal immigrants; 307,506,550.

Oh my god! They are definitely taking all the jobs Americans need! I mean, look how drastically they alter the population!

[FueledByFrodo]

Let's take a moment to let that sink in.

Bodies in America without illegal immigrants; 307,006,550.
Bodies in America with illegal immigrants; 307,506,550.

Oh my god! They are definitely taking all the jobs Americans need! I mean, look how drastically they alter the population!

They are less than .166666666666666...% of the population.

[saysmydoctor]

Of course they do! but if you're legal you get thrown in jail, like they should. To say "should we deport them?" is just dumb.

Yeah, all 500,000 of them. Riiiiight.

Income tax and sales tax are two different things...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payroll_tax

They pay those too.

Arguing this law is pretty pointless. Regardless of how you look at it, it's just bad public policy. Simple as that.

[azlisa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payroll_tax

Arguing this law is pretty pointless.

I already blocked a bunch of idiots in here, so I'm going to agree with you and leave it at that.

[caveBEAR]

I already blocked a bunch of idiots in here, so I'm going to agree with you and leave it at that.

You blocked people? Ha ha ha ha ha.

[samsara]

I wonder is she can see me call her a cunt.

[caveBEAR]

They are less than .166666666666666...% of the population.

Is it just a coincidence that .1666666666666...% of the American population is pure, unadulterated, drunken-baby-raping evil?

I don't know. I just ask questions.

[caveBEAR]

I wonder is she can see me call her a cunt.

:lol:

It's been like trying to explain quantum physics to a paintbrush.

[samsara]

:lol:

It's been like trying to explain quantum physics to a paintbrush.

No matter how hard you try it just won't get through.

[wrppdarndyrfngr]

can a republican , who is allegedly for "small government", explain to me how it is ok to give police officers , government employees, more power?

but i don't want yall's head to explode so i can understand if you pass.

[Kozzy333]

They pay taxes.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

can a republican , who is allegedly for "small government", explain to me how it is ok to give police officers , government employees, more power?

but i don't want yall's head to explode so i can understand if you pass.

I still cannot fathom why conservatives disapprove with special interest groups yet approve the recent Supreme Court decision that gives corporations more power in campaign contributions.

[caveBEAR]

I still cannot fathom why conservatives disapprove with special interest groups yet approve the recent Supreme Court decision that gives corporations more power in campaign contributions.

Special interest groups favor people that require special interests.
Corporations favor rich white guys.


Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

[Jake Gyllenhaal]

Special interest groups favor people that require special interests.
Corporations favor rich white guys.


Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

I'm convinced that conservatives think the way they do because they believe that one day they will be a rich white guy. If they excel in business, they will have the big house, country club membership, the wife with fake tits, obedient kids, and a endless amounts of happiness.

[Machu505]

If I might chime in here:

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes.

[caveBEAR]

I'm convinced that conservatives think the way they do because they believe that one day they will be a rich white guy. If they excel in business, they will have the big house, country club membership, the wife with fake tits, obedient kids, and a endless amounts of happiness.

That's not what happens? Fuck, gotta switch that business major now.

[TROKyle]

If there was a clear-cut definition of probable/reasonable cause would more people be in favor of this law?
Just curious.

I'm not sure where I stand on it; I agree that something should be done, but not in the fashion that this law suggests.

[jessicalynn-xx]

Every smart American come move to Canada. We got lots of room for you.

Hell yes! :-)

[jessicalynn-xx]

Maybe if it were easier to become a citizen you'd have less illegals.

[caveBEAR]

If there was a clear-cut definition of probable/reasonable cause would more people be in favor of this law?
Just curious.

I'm not sure where I stand on it; I agree that something should be done, but not in the fashion that this law suggests.

If there was a clear-cut definition, then maybe. Probably 'no', however. My problem with the law is that if an illegal immigrant gets into legal trouble, their citizenship (or lack thereof) will be brought up. They don't just let them go because they don't have a SSN. Anything beyond this (such as the power given in the Arizona laws) is a bump in power that I don't think these agencies need to have, nor needs to be enforced on the people at the bottom of the totem pole.

[TROKyle]

If there was a clear-cut definition, then maybe. Probably 'no', however. My problem with the law is that if an illegal immigrant gets into legal trouble, their citizenship (or lack thereof) will be brought up. They don't just let them go because they don't have a SSN. Anything beyond this (such as the power given in the Arizona laws) is a bump in power that I don't think these agencies need to have, nor needs to be enforced on the people at the bottom of the totem pole.


Aye, now I'm not sure about what can/can't be used as a declaration of "citizenship". I know Drivers Licenses can't be used, but what about Enhanced Licenses? And does Arizona have those? I know NY does; you can use them to get across to Canada in place of a passport, so I would assume that these would count as "proof of citizenship".
Not sure how that question pertains exactly, just a question I had. I really should know these things...

[caveBEAR]

Aye, now I'm not sure about what can/can't be used as a declaration of "citizenship". I know Drivers Licenses can't be used, but what about Enhanced Licenses? And does Arizona have those? I know NY does; you can use them to get across to Canada in place of a passport, so I would assume that these would count as "proof of citizenship".
Not sure how that question pertains exactly, just a question I had. I really should know these things...

They'd have to have a green card on them. That's pretty much (as far as I know) par for the course in that situation; however, if an illegal immigrant is arrested or has their information processed, it's pretty easy to tell if they're here legally or not.

What people are worried about with the new legislation from Arizona, is that police officers will be given the power to cook up any 'reasonable suspicion' for any Hispanic/black person they want to check, whether or not they were doing anything that would have brought them into conflict with the law (besides being here illegally, of course).

As of now it's all guesses and conjectures because Arizona's been pretty tight-lipped on what will be considered 'probable cause', but a cursory glance of our history can lead us to educated guesses on what may happen, and it's not good for personal freedoms.

[TROKyle]

They'd have to have a green card on them. That's pretty much (as far as I know) par for the course in that situation; however, if an illegal immigrant is arrested or has their information processed, it's pretty easy to tell if they're here legally or not.

What people are worried about with the new legislation from Arizona, is that police officers will be given the power to cook up any 'reasonable suspicion' for any Hispanic/black person they want to check, whether or not they were doing anything that would have brought them into conflict with the law (besides being here illegally, of course).

As of now it's all guesses and conjectures because Arizona's been pretty tight-lipped on what will be considered 'probable cause', but a cursory glance of our history can lead us to educated guesses on what may happen, and it's not good for personal freedoms.


Yeah I get the whole arguements against and for the bill - its just the "proof of citizenship" stuff that raised questions.
But the "reasonable suspicion" doesn't just pertain to this bill; its everything that has to do with that concept that is just skewed. Like your stories about your car. Reasonable suspicion is a double-edged sword; there are times where it protects (which is its purpose) but it is easily abused to just become a nuesence to those who actually have nothing to hide.
Its a necessary evil I think (reasonable suspicion/probably cause that is)

[caveBEAR]

Yeah I get the whole arguements against and for the bill - its just the "proof of citizenship" stuff that raised questions.
But the "reasonable suspicion" doesn't just pertain to this bill; its everything that has to do with that concept that is just skewed. Like your stories about your car. Reasonable suspicion is a double-edged sword; there are times where it protects (which is its purpose) but it is easily abused to just become a nuesence to those who actually have nothing to hide.
Its a necessary evil I think (reasonable suspicion/probably cause that is)

The worry is that 'being Hispanic' is going to become reasonable suspicion/probable cause, and that's not tolerable.

[TROKyle]

The worry is that 'being Hispanic' is going to become reasonable suspicion/probable cause, and that's not tolerable.

Agreed.
But again this is all speculation. I think people need to just take a step back and see how it plays out - if its bad fix it and if it actually works with little to no downfalls/shortcomings then let it be.
I think people are just afraid of change in general and "worry" that something won't work. Can't get everything perfect the first time. That may be a bad stance to take on politics though, similiar to the "if it doesn't affect me I don't care" way of looking at politics.

EDIT: I realize that this "worry" is in good nature though - it will probably happen. Only time can truely tell though.

[open mind]

what's the big deal here? texas, california, arizona, and new mexico should really be a part of mexico anyways.

i don't see this threat being carried out.

[GeeBee]

I'm convinced that conservatives think the way they do because they believe that one day they will be a rich white guy. If they excel in business, they will have the big house, country club membership, the wife with fake tits, obedient kids, and a endless amounts of happiness.

Which is why it's funny to watch blue-collar conservatives defending the guy who would impoverish them given the chance.

[myplanforescape]

General Manager of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power responded to this. I guess the LADWP is part owner of the two power plants in question.

http://www.ladwpnews.com/go/doc/1475/555479/

[saysmydoctor]

Maybe if it were easier to become a citizen you'd have less illegals.
That would actually solve the problem. We need legislation that it exacerbates it.
what's the big deal here? texas, california, arizona, and new mexico should really be a part of mexico anyways.

i don't see this threat being carried out.
And the US should belong to the Native Americans. This isn't a real good basis for an argument though.

Understand the sentiment, though.

[saysmydoctor]

General Manager of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power responded to this. I guess the LADWP is part owner of the two power plants in question.

http://www.ladwpnews.com/go/doc/1475/555479/
Okay, this is the best press release ever.

Ever.

[open mind]

And the US should belong to the Native Americans. This isn't a real good basis for an argument though.

Understand the sentiment, though.


yeah, it was more of a joke then anything else.

i wouldn't be taken aback if a large number of mexican immigrants (illegal or otherwise) believe they have every right to live on land that the u.s. unjustly controls though.