Cop Punches Woman in Seattle

[schaft]

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/06/seattle_police_officer_caught.php

The altercation took place yesterday on Martin Luther King Junior Way South. The tape begins as the officer appears to be trying to arrest one of the girls for jaywalking.

Both girls, ages 19 and 17, were eventually cuffed and booked on suspicion of obstructing an officer. The one who was punched was checked out by medics and deemed to be OK.

The incident comes a month after an officer was caught on tape threatening to "beat the fucking Mexican piss" out of a robbery suspect he then stomped on the face. King 5 says Seattle police have decided not to review tape of this latest arrest, but we'll see what happens later once this thing circulates. I personally think the girl got what was coming to her. The officer was attempting to make an arrest and the girl being arrested, and her friend who got punched, were fighting the arrest. I think some resisting arrest charges should be added.

At least he didn't taze them?

What do you think?

EDIT FOR EVERYONE THINKING THEY WERE BEING ARRESTED FOR JAYWALKING:
According to RCW 46.63.020, among the provisions listed, jaywalking is one amongst them that is treated as a traffic citation. The girls wouldn't have been arrested, first if they had complied, and second if they didn't assault the officer. This is why only two of the four in question were arrested. If not for the outbursts, everyone would have just gotten a ticket, and would have been on their way.

tl;dr - you can't get arrested for jaywalking in washington state.

[Sean Rizzo]

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/06/seattle_police_officer_caught.php


I personally think the girl got what was coming to her. The officer was attempting to make an arrest and the girl being arrested, and her friend who got punched, were fighting the arrest. I think some resisting arrest charges should be added.

At least he didn't taze them?

What do you think?
I agree with all of that. Secondly, I live near where the incident occurred, and local radio confirmed that the officer involved didn't have a tazer with him at the time of the incident. Also, I've heard that tazing takes place first, before hand-to-hand combat if a subject isn't compliant. Given that this cop didn't have a tazer and the other girl was obstructing the arrest, the cop was well within line. I do think that he could have used less violent means, but I don't think he was wrong for doing so.

One thing the article doesn't talk about, is if you watch the video, backup doesn't arrive until like 3 minutes in or something like that, after the altercation was occurring. With all those people surrounding the cop without knowing what their intentions are, and with one of them physically trying to prevent an arrest by laying her hands on him, I don't blame him at all for striking her. He had no backup, and he didn't know what this girl's intentions were toward him.

[schaft]

I agree with all of that. Secondly, I live near where the incident occurred, and local radio confirmed that the officer involved didn't have a tazer with him at the time of the incident. Also, I've heard that tazing takes place first, before hand-to-hand combat if a subject isn't compliant. Given that this cop didn't have a tazer and the other girl was obstructing the arrest, the cop was well within line. I do think that he could have used less violent means, but I don't think he was wrong for doing so.

One thing the article doesn't talk about, is if you watch the video, backup doesn't arrive until like 3 minutes in or something like that, after the altercation was occurring. With all those people surrounding the cop without knowing what their intentions are, and with one of them physically trying to prevent an arrest by laying her hands on him, I don't blame him at all for striking her. He had no backup, and he didn't know what this girl's intentions were toward him.
Good point on the backup. I live in a much smaller city (Omaha, NE) and most times our cops won't even make a move up to a car they've pulled over without backup.

[Machu505]

Who the fuck arrests someone for jaywalking?

[Sean Rizzo]

Good point on the backup. I live in a much smaller city (Omaha, NE) and most times our cops won't even make a move up to a car they've pulled over without backup.
Must be a bad neighborhood, lol. I wish people wouldn't make a spectacle about these things based on race, though. If either the crowd was white or if the cop wasn't white, I would imagine this wouldn't be getting nearly as much press coverage. Arrests like these happen daily. I concede that a lot of the shock could be created by a man hitting a woman, though. One of our radio commentators said the police department is practically asking for a racial prejudice lawsuit by not putting racial minority cops in the district where this happened.

[Sean Rizzo]

Who the ****** arrests someone for jaywalking?
This happened at 3 PM. I would imagine them crossing the street at a non-designated spot was causing traffic problems if a cop got involved.

[Sean Rizzo]

Good point on the backup. I live in a much smaller city (Omaha, NE) and most times our cops won't even make a move up to a car they've pulled over without backup.
Another point to note, after the girl gets handcuffed she tries saying she didn't get her rights read to her. We don't see all of the events based on the video, so I would imagine the officer was detaining her, until he could get the other girl in a pair of cuffs as well. There's a big misconception that being handcuffed = being arrested. I don't remember the officer telling either of them they were under arrest in the video.

EDIT: After watching that again, he does say it. She most likely got her rights read to her immediately after everything settled down, though.

[HometownHero]

I look forward to times like these when I become an officer.

[the seventeenth]

I'd rather punch the guy recording the video.
We see whats going on, no need to say all of this:
Oh (bleep) No. Are you serious? Are you serious? Are you serious? (bleep) Are you (bleeping) serious? (bleep) me, (bleep). (bleep). Are you serious. (bleep), (bleep) I saw that shit. You ripped her clothes off. You slapped her in the face. (bleep) Quit slammin' on her man. (bleep). Why'd you have to hit her with a closed fist? Why'd you have to hit her with a closed fist? Why'd you have to hit her with a closed fist? (bleep)

[atticus18244fss]

Jaywalking? Seriously?

Watched it now. Why the hell was she acting like a bitch in the first place.

[barkingincision]

sweet brag

[the seventeenth]

Serves you right, should have stayed in the kitchen.
In all seriousness though, he wouldn't have had to even hit her if they realized that what they did was illegal in the first place & resisting their arrest only made it worse. He had every right to hit her.

[Two Headed Girl]

Seriously, they were acting like lunatics and resisting arrest. They had their hands all over him and he was trying to do his job, they were being completely unreasonable. What's the big deal about about a jaywalking arrest anyway? Like a $100 fine and a trip to court? Don't be a bitch, don't get treated like one.

[Two Headed Girl]

Serves you right, should have stayed in the kitchen.
In all seriousness though, he wouldn't have had to even hit her if they realized that what they did was illegal in the first place & resisting their arrest only made it worse. He had every right to hit her.

This shit would not go down in New England. Bunch of god damn West Coast beatniks!

[Sean Rizzo]

Serves you right, should have stayed in the kitchen.
In all seriousness though, he wouldn't have had to even hit her if they realized that what they did was illegal in the first place & resisting their arrest only made it worse. He had every right to hit her.
Bingo.

After seeing that video and what they were accusing the cop of, despite plain sight contradicting it: "ripping her clothes", "slamming on her", etc. I can see how a lot of these police brutality allegations are made up.

[the seventeenth]

This shit would not go down in New England. Bunch of god damn West Coast beatniks!
Yeah, we keep it real in the East. Represent.

[the seventeenth]

Bingo.

After seeing that video and what they were accusing the cop of, despite plain sight contradicting it: "ripping her clothes", "slamming on her", etc. I can see how a lot of these police brutality allegations are made up.
Yeah, you know I mean, slammin on her? ripping her clothes? All of these allegations have nothing to do with the crime & arrest and I'm sure if this was nothing more than a recorded audio clip instead of an actual video the officer wouldv'e been fired and brought to court for doing his job! Ridiculous, this whole altercation doesn't even need to be discussed, the man was just doing what he is payed to do and when somebody threatens his well being he needs to take certain actions.

[drevans18]

Nice.

[Machu505]

How about this: let's not let this incident excuse the reality of actual police brutality.

[Sean Rizzo]

How about this: let's not let this incident excuse the reality of actual police brutality.
Of course not. But it certainly isn't prevalent, as some would have us believe.

[Love As Arson]

I like how everyone is so pleased with a woman getting punched in the face. I personally consider it brutality, but then again, I don't regard police authority very highly, especially when it is used arbitrarily.

[ohitsmark]

Fight the power!


Until you realize its bad and that getting a punch in the face will come soon.

[schaft]

I like how everyone is so pleased with a woman getting punched in the face. I personally consider it brutality, but then again, I don't regard police authority very highly, especially when it is used arbitrarily.
Regardless of if it was a woman or a man, I'm happy to see police doing their job.

How is it brutality when the cop was outnumbered two to one. Granted they are women, but that makes the situation that much less balanced for the police officer.

And how was his authority used arbitrarily? We know he was stopping a male for jaywalking, not the two women. The women interfered with what the police officer was doing. Hence the obstructing an officer charge.

Read the article in full next time.

[Sean Rizzo]

I like how everyone is so pleased with a woman getting punched in the face. I personally consider it brutality, but then again, I don't regard police authority very highly, especially when it is used arbitrarily.
I guess determining whether someone is breaking the law is arbitrary now.

[Sean Rizzo]

How is it brutality when the cop was outnumbered two to one. Granted they are women, but that makes the situation that much less balanced for the police officer.
Don't forget about the hostile crowd, either. One guy looked like he was ready to start something.

[Knatuhlee]

i am going to seattle on monday... i will remember not to jay walk.

[imtherealdave]

I like how everyone is so pleased with a woman getting punched in the face. I personally consider it brutality, but then again, I don't regard police authority very highly, especially when it is used arbitrarily.

A woman stepped between an officer who was trying to subdue a suspect who was already interfering with an arrest and assaulted him. How is that arbitrary?

[schaft]

i am going to seattle on monday... i will remember not to jay walk.
You don't have to worry about jaywalking. Worry about fucking with their cops.

[Love As Arson]

Don't forget about the hostile crowd, either. One guy looked like he was ready to start something.
Well, this is just ridiculous.

I guess determining whether someone is breaking the law is arbitrary now.
Yep.

Regardless of if it was a woman or a man, I'm happy to see police doing their job.
Stopping jaywalkers or punching women? I'd much rather my tax dollars go to something useful.



How is it brutality when the cop was outnumbered two to one. Granted they are women, but that makes the situation that much less balanced for the police officer.
I think any sense of balance between the police and the average individual is impossible; in this case, the power differences between a seventeen year old woman and cop is vast. As for brutality, the number of bystanders or individuals simply present in a given situation does not determine whether brutality took place.

And how was his authority used arbitrarily?
I was referring to situations in which the police pick and choose to apply the law, as well as force.

We know he was stopping a male for jaywalking, not the two women. The women interfered with what the police officer was doing.
The incident began when Walsh spotted four young women jaywalking the 3100 block of Martin Luther King, Jr. Way S. Walsh asked the group to step over to his patrol car, but the women were being "verbally antagonistic toward the officer," according to officials.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/96413004.html


The officer was talking to the man when he saw four young women jaywalk across the same street at the same spot. The officer asked the women to step over to his patrol car, but the women were being "verbally antagonistic toward the officer," according to officials.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/421775_officerpunch15.html?source=m ypi

Apparently, you lack reading comprehension skills. And I'm a firm believer in the right to resist arrest.

[open mind]

unless it's a common thing there the cop shouldn't have arrested them for jaywalking....i have a suspicion that he only did so because he (like a lot of cops) turns into an unreasonable prick when he isn't treated like a god.

[Machu505]

I'm still amazed that people are arrested for jaywalking.

[RX XR]

Only in Seattle...

[schaft]

Well, this is just ridiculous.
Taking the crowd into consideration is ridiculous? Read the cop's body language in the video. He looks nervous as hell as the crowd continues to grow around him. Watching the video again, I don't see anybody necessarily looking to "start shit", but I see people getting a lot closer than they should while an arrest is in progress.

Stopping jaywalkers or punching women? I'd much rather my tax dollars go to something useful.
Since the actual jaywalking wasn't documented, I'll just quote Price of Light: "This happened at 3 PM. I would imagine them crossing the street an an undesignated spot was causing traffic problems if a cop got involved." If they were causing a situation where they placed themselves or others in harm, the cop had every right to stop them. But we won't know as I'm sure this will turn into a "cop said / they said" situation.

I think any sense of balance between the police and the average individual is impossible; in this case, the power differences between a seventeen year old woman and cop is vast. As for brutality, the number of bystanders or individuals simply present in a given situation does not determine whether brutality took place.
A seventeen year old woman and a nineteen year old woman. Plus the countless others gathering around the incident to film it all. The crowd vastly outnumbered the cop and he did what he needed to do to maintain control, especially when the girls became physical. As for the brutality call, I still don't believe any brutality occurred. Punching her and then continuing to assault her would be brutality. Instead he punched her, causing her to leave the fight, allowing him to finish the arrest.

Apparently, you lack reading comprehension skills. And I'm a firm believer in the right to resist arrest.
The only difference between what my article states and what your articles state is who is originally stopped for jaywalking. They both state that the officer was doing nothing more than stopping them, not arresting them, when the women became belligerent. The fact still remains that the women did not cooperate with the cops.

I'm a firm believer that if you're resisting arrest, you deserve the potential "brutality" brought forth by the arresting officer(s).

[Sean Rizzo]

I'm still amazed that people are arrested for jaywalking.
According to RCW 46.63.020, among the provisions listed, jaywalking is one amongst them that is treated as a traffic citation. The girls wouldn't have been arrested, first if they had complied, and second if they didn't assault the officer. This is why only two of the four in question were arrested. If not for the outbursts, everyone would have just gotten a ticket, and would have been on their way.

tl;dr - you can't get arrested for jaywalking in washington state.

[Machu505]

Ah. I misunderstood the cop stopping the man.

[Scrandon]

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/421775_officerpunch15.html?source=m ypi

Apparently, you lack reading comprehension skills. And I'm a firm believer in the right to resist arrest.

Differing sources, no need for that.
​It all started when a cop stopped a man for jaywalking.

I feel like if you try to resist an arrest physically, you will be handled physically by a cop, just like anybody would do. If you resist an arrest through legal means, you are treated with respect.

[Sean Rizzo]

Ah. I misunderstood the cop stopping the man.
Yeah, the blog is misleading a little. All of them were jaywalking, these two girls were just putting up a fight. That's why they got shipped off to jail happy fun time land. haha.

[saveferris]

Who the fuck arrests someone for jaywalking?
He might not have if they had been cooperative

[splitsecond]

100% deserved

[Star Slight]

I mean I'd be mad too if someone actually stopped me for jaywalking...but I'm not dumb enough to do something like that.
Another case of lack of respect of authority figures.

[schaft]

I mean I'd be mad too if someone actually stopped me for jaywalking...but I'm not dumb enough to do something like that.
Another case of lack of respect of authority figures.
It's All Time Low fans and Six Flags all over again.

[Sean Rizzo]

He might not have if they had been cooperative
He couldn't have.

http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=69387322#post69387 322




Hey schaft, can you put my post that I just linked in here in the OP? People are going to have this misconception all over the place otherwise.

[AP_Punk]

I like how everyone is so pleased with a woman getting punched in the face. I personally consider it brutality, but then again, I don't regard police authority very highly, especially when it is used arbitrarily.

this.

[saveferris]

He couldn't have.

http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=69387322#post69387 322



Hey schaft, can you put my post that I just linked in here in the OP? People are going to have this misconception all over the place otherwise.
I didn't know all that now. But yeah it makes sense

[schaft]

Hey schaft, can you put my post that I just linked in here in the OP? People are going to have this misconception all over the place otherwise.
Done.

[Machu505]

You people are making it difficult for me to agree with you. I understand that these women were being uncooperative, but don't talk about respecting police authority. I couldn't care less about that shit.

[schaft]

You people are making it difficult for me to agree with you. I understand that these women were being uncooperative, but don't talk about respecting police authority. I couldn't care less about that shit.
http://imgur.com/HKrQx.gif
You're 15. When you're old enough to drive and get pulled over, you'll understand the importance of respecting police authority. Don't be all "fuck the police" because it's PUNK RAWK to do it.

[Ryan Rumsey]

I cant say what I really want to say.

[open mind]

http://imgur.com/HKrQx.gif
You're 15. When you're old enough to drive and get pulled over, you'll understand the importance of respecting police authority. Don't be all "fuck the police" because it's PUNK RAWK to do it.

you might as well say you'll know how to be properly intimidated when you're older.

[schaft]

you might as well say you'll know how to be properly intimidated when you're older.
I've never felt intimidated when I've been pulled over.

[Love As Arson]

Taking the crowd into consideration is ridiculous? Read the cop's body language in the video. He looks nervous as hell as the crowd continues to grow around him. Watching the video again, I don't see anybody necessarily looking to "start shit", but I see people getting a lot closer than they should while an arrest is in progress.
No, saying that there is a guy that looks like he wants to start shit is ridiculous, as is speculation regarding body language.



Since the actual jaywalking wasn't documented, I'll just quote Price of Light: "This happened at 3 PM. I would imagine them crossing the street an an undesignated spot was causing traffic problems if a cop got involved." If they were causing a situation where they placed themselves or others in harm, the cop had every right to stop them. But we won't know as I'm sure this will turn into a "cop said / they said" situation.
Well, the article states that the women were walking, the cop looked over and stopped them. The rest of this, again, is meaningless speculation.

A seventeen year old woman and a nineteen year old woman. Plus the countless others gathering around the incident to film it all.
Even if we add the other woman to the equation, the power relations are still unequal. The crowd had little to do with the actual event. The video seems to imply that the crowd was attracted by the violent act.

The crowd vastly outnumbered the cop and he did what he needed to do to maintain control, especially when the girls became physical.
So, he made an example out of the female in order to ward off the crowd?

As for the brutality call, I still don't believe any brutality occurred. Punching her and then continuing to assault her would be brutality. Instead he punched her, causing her to leave the fight, allowing him to finish the arrest.
At first, he was nervous as heck, but now you're arguing the punch was a strategic move.

The only difference between what my article states and what your articles state is who is originally stopped for jaywalking. They both state that the officer was doing nothing more than stopping them, not arresting them, when the women became belligerent. The fact still remains that the women did not cooperate with the cops.
Why cooperate with a bogus stop? As for the differences, they are pretty big. You initially claimed the girls were uninvolved in the dispute to demonstrate that they interfered with the cop.



I'm a firm believer that if you're resisting arrest, you deserve the potential "brutality" brought forth by the arresting officer(s).
What if the reason you're being arrested is unjust?

[saveferris]

http://imgur.com/HKrQx.gif
You're 15. When you're old enough to drive and get pulled over, you'll understand the importance of respecting police authority. Don't be all "fuck the police" because it's PUNK RAWK to do it.
this.

[saveferris]

What if the reason you're being arrested is unjust?
That's completely subjective if it's unjust or not. You handle that part later in a courtroom or at the station.

[schaft]

Lots of stuff
Since a lot of this seems to be speculation, and things we won't know since we weren't there, I think we should just agree to disagree at this point. I respect your arguments, though. Good job not turning this into a "ZOMG UR SO FUCKING STUPID" argument like the normal thread can turn into.

[open mind]

I've never felt intimidated when I've been pulled over.

you must be white.

besides maybe avoiding a ticket or arrest how is being respectful on a personal level important?

[Sean Rizzo]

you must be white.

besides maybe avoiding a ticket or arrest how is being respectful on a personal level important?
That, and common decency. I swear, people like you wouldn't talk like that to the exact same person if you didn't know they were a cop. Somehow wearing the uniform makes them less human and less deserving of common decency? Give me a break.

I'll ignore the idiotic attempt at adding race to this discussion when it need not be.

[schaft]

you must be white.

besides maybe avoiding a ticket or arrest how is being respectful on a personal level important?
I am white. But regardless of race, you shouldn't feel intimidated by being approached by the police unless you're actually doing something illegal and not wanting to get caught.

And as for the being respectful, wouldn't you want to be respected if you were in their shoes? Even in every day encounters with other people, don't you want to be respectful to others? You just come off as a rude asshole, like the girls in the video, when you're not.

[Machu505]

http://imgur.com/HKrQx.gif
You're 15. When you're old enough to drive and get pulled over, you'll understand the importance of respecting police authority. Don't be all "fuck the police" because it's PUNK RAWK to do it.

Yeah don't talk down to me. I'm kind of disappointed that you're taking my lack-of-special-respect for people with badges as a too-cool-for-skool attitude.

[open mind]

That, and common decency. I swear, people like you wouldn't talk like that to the exact same person if you didn't know they were a cop. Somehow wearing the uniform makes them less human and less deserving of common decency? Give me a break.

I'll ignore the idiotic attempt at adding race to this discussion when it need not be.

what the fuck are you talking about? i'm talking to cops and mistreating them now?

i'm sorry if dealing with reality is idiotic.

[schaft]

Yeah don't talk down to me. I'm kind of disappointed that you're taking my lack-of-special-respect for people with badges as a too-cool-for-skool attitude.
Regardless of badges, it's respecting another person. That person just happens to be in a position that they can arrest you and charge you with a crime if you disrespect them or don't follow their orders. Respect is needed by basic necessity of being a decent human being, especially so when that person (whether you like it or not) has a level of legal power above yours.

[open mind]

I am white. But regardless of race, you shouldn't feel intimidated by being approached by the police unless you're actually doing something illegal and not wanting to get caught.

And as for the being respectful, wouldn't you want to be respected if you were in their shoes? Even in every day encounters with other people, don't you want to be respectful to others? You just come off as a rude asshole, like the girls in the video, when you're not.

people shouldn't have to feel intimidated yet they do. why do they? because of a long and well documented track record of police victimizing minorities.

i'd want to be respected but i'm not a big enough asshole to seriously fuck with someones life over it.

[Machu505]

Regardless of badges, it's respecting another person. That person just happens to be in a position that they can arrest you and charge you with a crime if you disrespect them or don't follow their orders. Respect is needed by basic necessity of being a decent human being, especially so when that person (whether you like it or not) has a level of legal power above yours.

When did I ever say I was going to disrespect a cop?

[schaft]

people shouldn't have to feel intimidated yet they do. why do they? because of a long and well documented track record of police victimizing minorities.

i'd want to be respected but i'm not a big enough asshole to seriously fuck with someones life over it.
This:
I'll ignore the attempt at adding race to this discussion when it need not be.

[Sean Rizzo]

what the ****** are you talking about? i'm talking to cops and mistreating them now?

i'm sorry if dealing with reality is idiotic.
You asked why it's important to maintain respect aside from one's own personal gain. I answered you.

I'm sorry that you're unwilling to accept reality. This is 2010. Those girls broke the law, and would have been given a basic ticket if they decided not to be belligerent. They decided to assault the officer. This has nothing to do with race. The outcome would have been the same if any person decided to become an assailant, man, woman, black, white, yellow, purple, green, or orange.

[Machu505]

I'm pretty sure the mention of race was unrelated to this incident and had more to do with the storied history of cops mistreating minorities.

[schaft]

When did I ever say I was going to disrespect a cop?
You people are making it difficult for me to agree with you. I understand that these women were being uncooperative, but don't talk about respecting police authority. I couldn't care less about that shit.
You may not have said you were going to disrespect a copy, but you said you didn't care about respecting cops.

[open mind]

You asked why it's important to maintain respect aside from one's own personal gain. I answered you.

I'm sorry that you're unwilling to accept reality. This is 2010. Those girls broke the law, and would have been given a basic ticket if they decided not to be belligerent. They decided to assault the officer. This has nothing to do with race. The outcome would have been the same if any person decided to become an assailant, man, woman, black, white, yellow, purple, green, or orange.

no you went on a unwarranted rant about "people like me".

willfully missing the point.

[Machu505]

You may not have said you were going to disrespect a copy, but you said you didn't care about respecting cops.

I certainly won't show them any more than I show to everyone else.

[open mind]

This:

you said people have no reason to be intimidated by the cops if they've done nothing wrong. i responded with a good reason why they might be.

[Sean Rizzo]

no you went on a unwarranted rant about "people like me".

willfully missing the point.
No, I answered it, then I went on the very warranted rant about people like you. The answer was common decency.

[open mind]

No, I answered it
then I went on the very warranted rant about people like you.

i guess you did answer me....the presumptive douche baggery of the majority of your post caused me to miss that i guess.

what makes you think you know anything about me or my interactions with law enforcement?

[schaft]

I certainly won't show them any more than I show to everyone else.
Which, if you treat everyone else with at least a minimal amount of respect, won't be an issue.

you said people have no reason to be intimidated by the cops if they've done nothing wrong. i responded with a good reason why they might be.
I still say that, regardless of race, being intimidated by the police is unnecessary unless you're doing something illegal and you've been caught. While I can't deny that racial profiling and police brutality exists, I don't think it's related to this incident at all. I think the cop stopped the people jaywalking for whatever reason and they became unruly for no reason. Race aside, that's just ignorant.

[caveBEAR]

I've had too many cops fishing in my car for non-existent drugs and tail-lights that appear to only be out when a cops behind me to show any cop the respect he thinks he deserves.

There's plenty of cops who really just want to do good and help the community, but there's even more with a hard-on for authority.

[open mind]

I still say that, regardless of race, being intimidated by the police is unnecessary unless you're doing something illegal and you've been caught. While I can't deny that racial profiling and police brutality exists, I don't think it's related to this incident at all. I think the cop stopped the people jaywalking for whatever reason and they became unruly for no reason. Race aside, that's just ignorant.

we'll have to agree to disagree i guess.

how do you know it was unjustified? do you know for a fact that the cop didn't do something that was out of line?

[Scrandon]

I don't think that maintaining your cool and not getting into a literal fistfight with a cop is necessarily respecting them. I would put that more in the category of 'being a decent human being.'

[schaft]

how do you know it was unjustified? do you know for a fact that the cop didn't do something that was out of line?
True. We won't know since we weren't there. But reports, from multiple sources, state the officer just stopped them for jaywalking and they became aggressive with the cop first.
It all started when a cop stopped a man for jaywalking. Things escalated quickly from there as voices were raised and a crowd gathered. When two young women intervened an onlooker pulled out his camera phone and started to roll tape.
The incident began when Walsh spotted four young women jaywalking the 3100 block of Martin Luther King, Jr. Way S. Walsh asked the group to step over to his patrol car, but the women were being "verbally antagonistic toward the officer," according to officials.
The officer was talking to the man when he saw four young women jaywalk across the same street at the same spot. The officer asked the women to step over to his patrol car, but the women were being "verbally antagonistic toward the officer," according to officials.

[schaft]

I don't think that maintaining your cool and not getting into a literal fistfight with a cop is necessarily respecting them. I would put that more in the category of 'being a decent human being.'
Good to see someone else on the same page as Prince of Light and myself.

[Love As Arson]

That, and common decency. I swear, people like you wouldn't talk like that to the exact same person if you didn't know they were a cop. Somehow wearing the uniform makes them less human and less deserving of common decency? Give me a break.

I'll ignore the idiotic attempt at adding race to this discussion when it need not be.
God forbid we add race to the discussion. Black and brown people are generally the victims of these abuses. And no, wearing uniforms does not make them less human. It does, however, oppose them to us.


That's completely subjective if it's unjust or not. You handle that part later in a courtroom or at the station.
I think we can make pretty objective determinations as to what is unjust or not. Men with guns exerting force over others is unjust.

[open mind]

True. We won't know since we weren't there. But reports, from multiple sources, state the officer just stopped them for jaywalking and they became aggressive with the cop first.

the first quote is disputed, and what else do you expect to hear from law enforcement officials?

[Love As Arson]

I remember when I was handcuffed for "walking on a known drug corner". Turns out, I was just poor and lived in the hood.

[Scrandon]

I think we can make pretty objective determinations as to what is unjust or not. Men with guns exerting force over others is unjust.

What if they are doing it for the overall good of society.

[Machu505]

Did the women intervene or were they called over by the cop?

[Love As Arson]

What if they are doing it for the overall good of society.
Reinforcing power relations that do not benefit the vast majority of people isn't good.

[saysmydoctor]

That's completely subjective if it's unjust or not. You handle that part later in a courtroom or at the station.
You've never experienced the judicial system, have you?

[Scrandon]

Reinforcing power relations that do not benefit the vast majority of people isn't good.

Well this is news to me. I'm going to need to see some data that the majority of police arrests end up being unwarranted.

[caveBEAR]

You've never experienced the judicial system, have you?

Are you insinuating that an officer's word is more highly regarded than the person the officer just arrested?

Blasphemy!

[schaft]

the first quote is disputed, and what else do you expect to hear from law enforcement officials?
The information provided was based off of the arresting officer's report. Considering that lying on an official case document would ruin the cop's career, I'd expect to hear the truth. But I see your point.
Did the women intervene or were they called over by the cop?
From multiple sources, they were called over. The first report appears to be incorrect.

[saysmydoctor]

The information provided was based off of the arresting officer's report. Considering that lying on an official case document would ruin the cop's career, I'd expect to hear the truth. But I see your point.

From multiple sources, they were called over. The first report appears to be incorrect.
Man, and I thought I was an idealist.

[Sean Rizzo]

what makes you think you know anything about me or my interactions with law enforcement?
The anti-authority attitude you yourself have presented in your posts.

God forbid we add race to the discussion. Black and brown people are generally the victims of these abuses. And no, wearing uniforms does not make them less human. It does, however, oppose them to us.
On what basis? You aren't in any form of "opposition" to law enforcement until you break the law or refuse to comply. I'll quote an earlier post.

http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=69389352#post69389 352

[schaft]

Man, and I thought I was an idealist.
Notice I said I'd expect the truth. That doesn't mean that is what was given.

[Sean Rizzo]

Man, and I thought I was an idealist.
He may be an idealist, but you're definitely a conspiracy theorist. What, do you believe every single member of every single law enforcement system in every city of every county of every state is inherently corrupt and can't make a fair judgment to the best of human ability? The stereotypes you present against law enforcement sure point that way.

[Love As Arson]

Well this is news to me. I'm going to need to see some data that the majority of police arrests end up being unwarranted.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/pub/2008/us/CERD_US_ConcObservations_0508.pdf
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/05/04/targeting-blacks-0
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/06/05/us-prison-numbers-hit-new-high

[saysmydoctor]

Let's not forget that those that do end up before a judge, the conviction rate is high (and even higher for minorities) and even though our judicial system is supposed to be a fair, adversarial model, it heavily benefits the Prosecution because they are the ones who hold the most power in the courtroom, even over the Judge--at the end of the day, they decide who is tried and who isn't and a lot more.

The criminal justice system is built in a way that makes it all but impossible for the "criminal" to win.

[Love As Arson]

On what basis? You aren't in any form of "opposition" to law enforcement until you break the law or refuse to comply. I'll quote an earlier post.

http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=69389352#post69389 352

The structural nature of the police and the interests they represent oppose them to me.

[Sean Rizzo]

Let's not forget that those that do end up before a judge, the conviction rate is high (and even higher for minorities) and even though our judicial system is supposed to be a fair, adversarial model, it heavily benefits the Prosecution because they are the ones who hold the most power in the courtroom, even over the Judge--at the end of the day, they decide who is tried and who isn't and a lot more.

The criminal justice system is built in a way that makes it all but impossible for the "criminal" to win.
Juries.

[saysmydoctor]

Juries.
Yes, you wanted to contribute something? I'm not here to read your mind. Either sketch out your point entirely or don't waste my time.

[Sean Rizzo]

The structural nature of the police and the interests they represent oppose them to me.
:lol:

Like keeping an ordered society so you're free from being assaulted in numerous ways by criminals? I'd like to see you say that again if you get mugged, attacked, or burglarized. Or how about these?

http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/code_conduct.shtml

[Sean Rizzo]

Yes, you wanted to contribute something? I'm not here to read your mind. Either sketch out your point entirely or don't waste my time.
That was my point. While I'm here, I'll add defense attorneys provided by the state if one can't afford one. Prosecution doesn't possess some fictitious absolute power or hypnotic ability over the judge or the jury. Ever heard of Gideon v. Wainwright?

[saysmydoctor]

That was my point. While I'm here, I'll add defense attorneys provided by the state if one can't afford one.
Doesn't counterbalance the huge amount of power in the hands of prosecutors and the fact that conviction rates are high, regardless of these alleged safeguards against injustice.

And defense attorneys, especially appointed ones, is a terrible retort. These attorneys generally have huge caseloads and generally plea bargain--which counts as a conviction. You can get this information in your average Intro to Criminal Justice class.

[Sean Rizzo]

Doesn't counterbalance the huge amount in the hands of prosecutors and the fact that conviction rates are high, regardless of these alleged safeguards against injustice.

And defense attorneys, especially appointed ones, is a terrible retort. These attorneys generally have huge caseloads and generally plea bargain--which counts as a conviction. You can get this information in your average Intro to Criminal Justice class.
You couldn't possibly fathom the idea that conviction is high because lawlessness is high, could you? This explains both high conviction rates and high caseloads for defense attorneys, and holds much more water than your allegation that law enforcement is categorically corrupt in even a large percentage of instances nationally, let alone a majority.

[saysmydoctor]

The crime rate has gone down since the 90s, next.

[saysmydoctor]

Heavy caseloads can be directly attributed to our stupid drug laws.

[Scrandon]

The crime rate has gone down since the 90s, next.

Nobody compared the crime rates of today with any before the nineties, they have been comparing them with other countries.

[Sean Rizzo]

The crime rate has gone down since the 90s, next.
One crime can have multiple offenders, and therefore multiple convictions for the same crime. Secondly, if more people are convicted and sent to prison instead of getting away with their crime, less crime can be committed by a repeat offender. Thirdly, there is no telling how many crimes are committed and not reported.

Aside from that, I'm wondering why it's so tough for you to believe that the current crime rates are still unacceptable despite the decrease, and vastly due to lawlessness. Is it not possible for people to be unethical in your perfect vision of the world? If a police officer is so often unethical, as you claim, why do you believe the average citizen is less so?

[Sean Rizzo]

Heavy caseloads can be directly attributed to our stupid drug laws.
I agree with this, but only for pot, since it's not addictive. We should add it into a category like the law I had schaft add to the OP, not legal, but worthy of a ticket and not jail time. Problem solved.

[saysmydoctor]

Nobody compared the crime rates of today with any before the nineties, they have been comparing them with other countries.
And? That's not what I was responding to.

[saysmydoctor]

I agree with this, but only for pot, since it's not addictive. We should add it into a category like the law I had schaft add to the OP, not legal, but worthy of a ticket and not jail time. Problem solved.
That's stupid. I'm still getting punished with something that isn't wrong. That's unjust.

[open mind]

The anti-authority attitude you yourself have presented in your posts.


.......because my opinions on law enforcement obviously equals disrespecting police in real life at every chance available......mucking foron.

[zion the lion]

That's stupid. I'm still getting punished with something that isn't wrong. That's unjust.

A thread about a woman being arrested and punched and you turn it into your right to smoke pot...and you get on my ass because I "ruin threads" the same way?

And who is the authority on what's wrong and right and when did it decide that having marijuana when its illegal isnt wrong?

[samsara]

I think the girl deserved it regardless of respect for authority. Doesnt change the fact that they were obstructing justice. People are always going off on cops but I think they are just being rebels and cops are just another person with rules people dont want to comply with.

[Scrandon]

It decided when it decided

[saysmydoctor]

A thread about a woman being arrested and punched and you turn it into your right to smoke pot...and you get on my ass because I "ruin threads" the same way?

And who is the authority on what's wrong and right and when did it decide that having marijuana when its illegal isnt wrong?
I was using it as an example, but here you are turning a nonissue into a source of fucking contention.

We could use gay marriage as an example of when someone or something utilizes their power to condemn an act that isn't wrong in anyway if you want. We could choose a lot of things that are punishable by law without any rhyme or reason to it and use it as an example of when it's justifiable to resist arrest and break the law.

There's no problem with questioning authority when authority is acting inappropriately. If anything it should be commended. Is it wrong to correct a cop and say that there was no sign for the speed limit on a particular stretch of road?

[zion the lion]

I was using it as an example, but here you are turning a nonissue into a source of fucking contention.

We could use gay marriage as an example of when someone or something utilizes their power to condemn an act that isn't wrong in anyway if you want. We could choose a lot of things that are punishable by law without any rhyme or reason to it and use it as an example of when it's justifiable to resist arrest and break the law.

There's no problem with questioning authority when authority is acting inappropriately. If anything it should be commended. Is it wrong to correct a cop and say that there was no sign for the speed limit on a particular stretch of road?

Thank you for going down that ranty road, its always nice.

So again who decides what's right and what's wrong exactly? And who decides what's acting inappropriately? Because I think that cop acted inappropriately but so far I seem to be in a very small minority of people who think so.

And yes probably, if there was a sign at any point before then he can still ticket you and if you are correcting him he'll just ticket you a little bit harder.

[Sean Rizzo]

.......because my opinions on law enforcement obviously equals disrespecting police in real life at every chance available......mucking foron.
Let's analyze what you said before. You posted this: "what makes you think you know anything about me or my interactions with law enforcement?"

While I can't make any judgments of de facto interactions you've had with law enforcement since I don't know you personally, I can draw many conclusions about you based on the opinions you've shown. I doubt you'd display any respect for law enforcement were it not for negative consequences from disregarding it.

[sayyes]

I think he overreacted with the punch to the face of a woman, though (almost) every police brutality case I see is someone that is a complete asshole to the officer. While I don't agree with a lot the cops do, nobody ever wins in getting violent with cops.

[jwicklun]

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/06/seattle_police_officer_caught.php

I personally think the girl got what was coming to her. The officer was attempting to make an arrest and the girl being arrested, and her friend who got punched, were fighting the arrest. I think some resisting arrest charges should be added.

At least he didn't taze them?

What do you think?

EDIT FOR EVERYONE THINKING THEY WERE BEING ARRESTED FOR JAYWALKING:

I could see this story on Stephen Colbert's "Nailed Them"

[loveisdead]

What if they are doing it for the overall good of society.

Utilitarianism is a slippery slope towards discrimination of every kind.

[Scrandon]

Utilitarianism is a slippery slope towards discrimination of every kind.

Except in this case it is discrimination against criminals.

[loveisdead]

Except in this case it is discrimination against criminals.

I was talking about utilitarianism as a moral philosophy, which he also was. After all, the cop wasn't acting in a utilitarian manner towards these women.

[Sean Rizzo]

I was talking about utilitarianism as a moral philosophy, which he also was. After all, the cop wasn't acting in a utilitarian manner towards these women.
These women weren't acting in a utilitarian manner toward drivers they were jaywalking in front of at 3 PM (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CBsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seattlepi.com% 2Flocal%2F421775_officerpunch15.htm l%3Fsource%3Drss&ei=VWYYTI_cFZK4NYCQ0OQE&usg=AFQjCNFE3IY-Txv3SGiZyiPpGcUAeyCtew).

[loveisdead]

These women weren't acting in a utilitarian manner toward drivers they were jaywalking in front of.

No fucking kidding. All I said was that utilitarianism is a stupid concept. Scrandon took what I said the wrong way and tried to apply it to this specific situation.

[Sean Rizzo]

No ****** kidding. All I said was that utilitarianism is a stupid concept. Scrandon took what I said the wrong way and tried to apply it to this specific situation.
Oh ok. Well the fact that you didn't include the other side prompted me to state it, so it all works out. And you have a great point here as well.

[loveisdead]

Oh ok. Well the fact that you didn't include the other side prompted me to state it, so it all works out. And you have a great point here as well.

In an attempt to make sure we don't start debating utilitarianism, I do find it kinda hard to believe that all you guys are praising this cop for punching a teenage girl in the face. Even if she touched him, cops are trained to subdue subjects in much less violent ways. Considering there was likely a huge strength advantage for the cop, he should have been able to handle this in a much better way.

[Sean Rizzo]

In an attempt to make sure we don't start debating utilitarianism, I do find it kinda hard to believe that all you guys are praising this cop for punching a teenage girl in the face. Even if she touched him, cops are trained to subdue subjects in much less violent ways. Considering there was likely a huge strength advantage for the cop, he should have been able to handle this in a much better way.
If you'd like to go back and read the very first post I made in here, I acknowledge that there was probably some less violent means he could (and should) have used, such as pepper spray. That said, I don't think he was wrong in his conduct for punching her when she was assaulting him to begin with. If a citizen is assaulted by another citizen, would it be less acceptable to strike them as a form of self-defense as opposed to using some kind of submission lock? I would think both are appropriate, although the less severe one should be the first option. Same in this case.

[saysmydoctor]

These women weren't acting in a utilitarian manner toward drivers they were jaywalking in front of at 3 PM (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CBsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seattlepi.com% 2Flocal%2F421775_officerpunch15.htm l%3Fsource%3Drss&ei=VWYYTI_cFZK4NYCQ0OQE&usg=AFQjCNFE3IY-Txv3SGiZyiPpGcUAeyCtew).
Streets should be more pedestrian friendly. :shrug:

[Sean Rizzo]

Streets should more pedestrian friendly. :shrug:
Drivers shouldn't have to deal with pedestrians who wander out in the middle of the road with blatant disregard for traffic rules and their own safety. And by "dealing with" I mean swerving to avoid and possibly wrecking.

[loveisdead]

If you'd like to go back and read the very first post I made in here, I acknowledge that there was probably some less violent means he could (and should) have used, such as pepper spray. That said, I don't think he was wrong in his conduct for punching her when she was assaulting him to begin with. If a citizen is assaulted by another citizen, would it be less acceptable to strike them as a form of self-defense as opposed to using some kind of submission lock? I would think both are appropriate, although the less severe one should be the first option. Same in this case.

How can you acknowledge that he should have acted differently and then defend what he did?

[loveisdead]

Drivers shouldn't have to deal with pedestrians who wander out in the middle of the road with blatant disregard for traffic rules and their own safety. And by "dealing with" I mean swerving and possibly wrecking.

Go to Boston. I'm not defending what they do, but people jaywalk all the time. I was petrified when I visited my friend up there and watched the way he acted while crossing the streets.

[saysmydoctor]

Drivers shouldn't have to deal with pedestrians who wander out in the middle of the road with blatant disregard for traffic rules and their own safety. And by "dealing with" I mean swerving to avoid and possibly wrecking.
It's Seattle. Pretty large metropolitan area. Drivers should be alert of pedestrians. It's the city.

[drevans18]

Streets should be more pedestrian friendly. :shrug:

What...

[Sean Rizzo]

How can you acknowledge that he should have acted differently and then defend what he did?
It was an appropriate use of force. I believe the less violent method should have been used, but that doesn't make the strike somehow less appropriate. It was one of several options that were appropriate. Unfortunately it was a more violent one.

[Sean Rizzo]

Go to Boston. I'm not defending what they do, but people jaywalk all the time. I was petrified when I visited my friend up there and watched the way he acted while crossing the streets.
Exactly my point.

[saysmydoctor]

You make it seem like crosswalks any safer. See: NYC.

[loveisdead]

It was an appropriate use of force. I believe the less violent method should have been used, but that doesn't make the strike somehow less appropriate. It was one of several options that were appropriate. Unfortunately it was a more violent one.
Hitting a teenage girl for crossing a street when she wasn't supposed to is inappropriate. I don't care if she threw a hissy fit.
Exactly my point.

I can look down on people who jaywalk without wanting them to get punched for it.

[Sean Rizzo]

It's Seattle. Pretty large metropolitan area. Drivers should be alert of pedestrians. It's the city.
Drivers need only be alert of pedestrians at designated crossing areas (white lines which are quite easy to see). If the crossing area hasn't been designated as such, it means the pedestrian should not be there and the driver will be caught off guard because of it. I suppose I should be "more aware" that a deer will run in front of my car leaving me no time to react simply because I'm in the woods, according to your logic. The level of surprise in these situations are often no different.

[Sean Rizzo]

You make it seem like crosswalks any safer. See: NYC.
It's the fault of the driver for not stopping for the pedestrian while in the crosswalk. It's the fault of the pedestrian if a crosswalk is not used.

[Sean Rizzo]

Hitting a teenage girl for crossing a street when she wasn't supposed to is inappropriate. I don't care if she threw a hissy fit.


I can look down on people who jaywalk without wanting them to get punched for it.
The punch wasn't for the jaywalking, nor was the arrest. Both were for resisting arrest and assault.

[saysmydoctor]

It's the fault of the driver for not stopping for the pedestrian while in the crosswalk. It's the fault of the pedestrian if a crosswalk is not used.
And I believe that's ridiculous. Walking traffic contributes far more than congestion and traffic jams. I'd rather regulate car traffic over people roaming the streets. But that's a discussion of urban planning and transportation planning; there's a thread for that, sorry for digressing.

[loveisdead]

The punch wasn't for the jaywalking, nor was the arrest. Both were for resisting arrest and assault.
You do realize that doesn't make sense, right?

[Sean Rizzo]

And I believe that's ridiculous. Walking traffic contributes far more than congestion and traffic jams. I'd rather regulate car traffic over people roaming the streets. But that's a discussion of urban planning and transportation planning; there's a thread for that, sorry for digressing.
It might be ridiculous, and so might using cars at all be (we need hovercars lol). But that's just the way things work right now. Think of it this way. People do have their own streets--sidewalks. These girls decided not to use their streets and used the cars' streets instead. Why should they not expect to be hit? I concede that sometimes you have to walk along roads without sidewalks, but these people jaywalked across a street that had a pedestrian overpass 15 feet away. Not only that the incident occurred at 3 PM. Here, as I know, that's the start of rush hour.

You do realize that doesn't make sense, right?
It makes perfect sense. If you read my quote in the OP, according to washington state law, those women can't be arrested for jaywalking. If they hadn't decided to run away from the ticket they had gotten (not complying), hadn't resisted when the officer was DETAINING (not arresting) them, and hadn't assaulted the officer, all this force wouldn't have been necessary. Need I remind you that only two of the four jaywalkers had force used on them and got arrested--the two who were combative and not compliant with facing the monetary consequences of the law they broke. Now they're facing consequences of time.

[drevans18]

You do realize that doesn't make sense, right?

Here in California, you get ticketed for jaywalking. I used to live (and currently receive schooling in) in Pennsylvania, where cops don't give two shits about jaywalking. I'm pretty sure I know of more people getting hit and killed in Los Angeles than in Philadelphia. Now, in LA, if you get ticketed and don't comply with the officer, he will arrest you, just as in any other state when not complying with a police officer. The reason this girl got knocked is because she was resisting arrest and going after the arresting officer. Questionable use of force? Sure. But he's simply doing his job. He ticketed her, and they started arguing. Cops are supposed to arrest non-compliant peoples. That's exactly what he did. Now, I don't condone a police officer punching anyone by any means. But what alternative is he supposed to turn to when handling two non-compliant teens resisting any sort of punishment in any form? Don't punch her. Yeah, I'd agree. But it's not like he could talk sense into them, they weren't listening in the first place.

[EchoPark]

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/06/seattle_police_officer_caught.php

I personally think the girl got what was coming to her. The officer was attempting to make an arrest and the girl being arrested, and her friend who got punched, were fighting the arrest. I think some resisting arrest charges should be added.

At least he didn't taze them?

What do you think?

EDIT FOR EVERYONE THINKING THEY WERE BEING ARRESTED FOR JAYWALKING:

You are a fucking moron if you think a sworn officer of the law has a right to physically assault a person in that manner.

[sayyes]

Would you all call me a pussy if I told you I'm white and would totally be a bitch to police officers that are trying to apprehend me?

[boysandbulletsx]

I'mma jaywalk all day, e'ryday.

[zachff]

I think the punch was out of line but wrestling/grappling with that girl was fine. He was essentially alone with 15-20 people closing in on him and this girl was resisting arrest.

[deFobbed14yrs]

Would you all call me a pussy if I told you I'm white and would totally be a bitch to police officers that are trying to apprehend me?


have fun getting tased bro.


Girl had it coming, the police were invented to protect the citizens of this country and uphold the law. The girls were assualting the cop, the cop had a right to self defense to take down anyone who was assualting him.\
Also I'm Indian and as is my dad and whenever he's gotten pulled over he hasn't been assualted or w/e even though brown people are all terroists. Also i live in Queens now for school and have not seen cops pull over every black guy walking by. So chill on the race thing.

[ellenfg.]

i wrote out a whole piece to say on this matter... but then deleted it because it was all babble.

i felt so uncomfortable for the officer while watching the video.
although i don't think his actions were justified, i think his reasoning for it were.

[Theseventhson]

ITT: A lot of morons. Who the fuck tickets people for jaywalking?

[Charles777]

Meh. She was being a bitch.

[schaft]

You are a fucking moron if you think a sworn officer of the law has a right to physically assault a person in that manner.
I've already discussed my points, so I won't repeat them. Read the full thread.

ITT: A lot of morons. Who the fuck tickets people for jaywalking?
In your response: Another person who didn't read the full thread. We don't know what kind of danger these people may have been causing by jaywalking. It's subjective, but a point that's already been discussed. Again, read the full thread.

[nickiswhatitis]

You are a fucking moron if you think a sworn officer of the law has a right to physically assault a person in that manner.

So the police have no right to defend themselves? The reality is, the cop wouldn't have placed his fist in a girl's face if she wasn't trying to stop what he was doing. Also notice, that when he had absolutely no control in the situation he grabbed it and that was it. There was no kicking while she was down, no beating with a metal baton; i.e. no excessive force where it wasn't needed.

[splitsecond]

The sheer amount of stupidity in this thread is amazing. Even as a defense attorney, I can tell you, she was in the wrong. There is no such thing as a right to resist arrest, or disobey simple orders from an officer, and doing it when the officer is clearly outnumbered is pure ignorance. And the "race card' certainly runs both directions here, you don't think every single one of those people in the crowd didn't assume that the cop was in the wrong simply because he was white? You are high. I deal with criminals daily, I know exactly what those idiots think justifies their actions.

[Sean Rizzo]

The sheer amount of stupidity in this thread is amazing. Even as a defense attorney, I can tell you, she was in the wrong. There is no such thing as a right to resist arrest, or disobey simple orders from an officer, and doing it when the officer is clearly outnumbered is pure ignorance. And the "race card' certainly runs both directions here, you don't think every single one of those people in the crowd didn't assume that the cop was in the wrong simply because he was white? You are high. I deal with criminals daily, I know exactly what those idiots thing justifies their actions.
Thank you splitsecond for showing us the light. hahaha.

[Theseventhson]

I've already discussed my points, so I won't repeat them. Read the full thread.


In your response: Another person who didn't read the full thread. We don't know what kind of danger these people may have been causing by jaywalking. It's subjective, but a point that's already been discussed. Again, read the full thread.

I've read the full thread. It's a weak point. But whatever, it's not a big enough issue to me to argue over.

[loveisdead]

The sheer amount of stupidity in this thread is amazing. Even as a defense attorney, I can tell you, she was in the wrong.
No one has denied that she acted out of line. However, her being in the wrong doesn't justify the cop striking her.
There is no such thing as a right to resist arrest
yes there is. (http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm) It shouldn't apply in this case, but who knows what those girls thought was and wasn't lawful.
or disobey simple orders from an officer, and doing it when the officer is clearly outnumbered is pure ignorance.
not sure what you're getting at there.
And the "race card' certainly runs both directions here, you don't think every single one of those people in the crowd didn't assume that the cop was in the wrong simply because he was white?
I can agree that the race card can work both ways in this, but given the history of unwarranted police brutality towards minorities, it should raise a few eyebrows.
You are high. I deal with criminals daily, I know exactly what those idiots think justifies their actions.
Whether or not their actions are justified doesn't justify an officer punching a teenage girl in the face. Give me a break. There are dozens of better ways to have gone about this.

[GeeBee]

The sheer amount of stupidity in this thread is amazing. Even as a defense attorney, I can tell you, she was in the wrong. There is no such thing as a right to resist arrest, or disobey simple orders from an officer, and doing it when the officer is clearly outnumbered is pure ignorance. And the "race card' certainly runs both directions here, you don't think every single one of those people in the crowd didn't assume that the cop was in the wrong simply because he was white? You are high. I deal with criminals daily, I know exactly what those idiots think justifies their actions.

I usually give the benefit of the doubt to the minority woman who doesn't have a fire-arm and looked pretty easy to subdue without a fist to the face. Are you serious?

[reckoner]

N
yes there is. (http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm) It shouldn't apply in this case, but who knows what those girls thought was and wasn't lawful.



“An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111. 491
Interesting...

[loveisdead]

Interesting...

Yeah that's pretty crazy.

[Love As Arson]

:lol:

Like keeping an ordered society so you're free from being assaulted in numerous ways by criminals? I'd like to see you say that again if you get mugged, attacked, or burglarized. Or how about these?

http://www.oregon.gov/OSP/code_conduct.shtml
It is impossible because civilized society is split into antagonistic, and, moreover, irreconcilably antagonistic classes, whose “self-acting” arming would lead to an armed struggle between them. A state arises, a special power is created, special bodies of armed men, and every revolution, by destroying the state apparatus, shows us the naked class struggle, clearly shows us how the ruling class strives to restore the special bodies of armed men which serve it, and how the oppressed class strives to create a new organization of this kind, capable of serving the exploited instead of the exploiters.

The second distinguishing feature is the establishment of a public power which no longer directly coincides with the population organising itself as an armed force. This special public power is necessary because a self-acting armed organisation of the population has become impossible since the split into classes. The slaves also belonged to the population; the 90,000 citizens of Athens formed only a privileged class as against the 365,000 slaves. The people's army of the Athenian democracy was an aristocratic public power against the slaves, whom it kept in check; however, a gendarmerie also became necessary to keep the citizens in check, as we related above. This public power exists in every state; it consists not merely of armed men but also of material adjuncts, prisons and institutions of coercion of all kinds, of which gentile [clan] society knew nothing. It may be very insignificant, almost infinitesimal, in societies where class antagonisms are still undeveloped and in out-of-the-way places as was the case at certain times and in certain regions in the United States of America. It [the public power] grows stronger, however, in proportion as class antagonisms within the state become more acute, and as adjacent states become larger and more populous. We have only to look at our present-day Europe, where class struggle and rivalry in conquest have tuned up the public power to such a pitch that it threatens to swallow the whole of society and even the state

It is not the creation of a particular class but evolves from the absolute necessity that class society has of dealing with the class oppositions that divide it. For most people, the concept of State is associated with legislatures and politicians. This is a very partial view of its content. Besides these institutions must be added the bureaucracy, the judicial apparatus, the clergy, the media, the army, and… the police. The police are the first line of the “bodies of armed men” (4) that are intended to defend the interest of the ruling class. If their real function was to stop crime, they would arrest every capitalist on the planet, as these are the true criminals and their regime the real source of all crime.

Unlike the worker whose interest is to get rid of the boss’s rule, the existence of the police is directly tied to the maintenance of the State and capitalist property relations. In this sense, in no way can cops or prison guards be seen as members of the working class as the trade unions would want us to believe.
http://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2002-03-01/friend-or-foe-marxism-and-the-police

[deFobbed14yrs]

Interesting...



she was hitting an officer. pretty sure that's illegal and your quote has nothing to do with the matter

[deFobbed14yrs]

Thank you splitsecond for showing us the light. hahaha.

i can not deal with the stupidity

[Sean Rizzo]

i can not deal with the stupidity
hi rona! it's been pretty hard for me to swallow, too. haha.

[deFobbed14yrs]

hi rona! it's been pretty hard for me to swallow, too. haha.

sup my friend! like you don't fuck with the police. If you're not in NWA you can't fuck with the police. Sure there are instances of police brutality against minorities, but this was not one of them. Don't take past events and apply them to everything just because a few pieces match.

[Sean Rizzo]

sup my friend! like you don't ****** with the police. If you're not in NWA you can't ****** with the police. Sure there are instances of police brutality against minorities, but this was not one of them. Don't take past events and apply them to everything just because a few pieces match.
Pretty much. lol. I think if I hadn't posted that law, everyone would still be thinking they were being arrested for jaywalking, too.

[deFobbed14yrs]

Pretty much. lol. I think if I hadn't posted that law, everyone would still be thinking they were being arrested for jaywalking, too.

*sigh*

people just don't hit cops. this whole incident wouldn't have happened if they just listened to the authority figure. We live in a civilized society, so abide by its rules or you can go live in the jungle with the other animals.

[reckoner]

she was hitting an officer. pretty sure that's illegal and your quote has nothing to do with the matter

Yeah... I was just commenting on the fact that you can kill a police officer if they're trying to unlawfully arrest you.

[Sean Rizzo]

*sigh*

people just don't hit cops. this whole incident wouldn't have happened if they just listened to the authority figure. We live in a civilized society, so abide by its rules or you can go live in the jungle with the other animals.
Yes indeed. I found out today on the radio that one of the two girls has had a prior record of auto theft and assault on a police officer. Go figure.

[deFobbed14yrs]

Yes indeed. I found out today on the radio that one of the two girls has had a prior record of auto theft and assault on a police officer. Go figure.

of course she did, what else do you expect from those people.

You know what I mean by "those people".

Fucking jaywalkers

[Sean Rizzo]

of course she did, what else do you expect from those people.

You know what I mean by "those people".

****** jaywalkers
hahahaha. thanks for that, I needed a laugh.

[open mind]

Let's analyze what you said before. You posted this: "what makes you think you know anything about me or my interactions with law enforcement?"

While I can't make any judgments of de facto interactions you've had with law enforcement since I don't know you personally, I can draw many conclusions about you based on the opinions you've shown. I doubt you'd display any respect for law enforcement were it not for negative consequences from disregarding it.

so incredibly wrong. i don't know where you're getting all these "anti-authority" posts and opinions of mine....i'm gonna say you (like idiots are prone to) have read to much into things and put words in my mouth.

just so you know how epically off base you are i went out with a police dispatcher for years and spent a good amount of time around cops at the station, and my dad does training with the state troopers and police.

[Sean Rizzo]

so incredibly wrong. i don't know where you're getting all these "anti-authority" posts and opinions of mine....i'm gonna say you (like idiots are prone to) have read to much into things and put words in my mouth.
Did I put words in your mouth? Really? I'm pretty sure you typed them yourself. Let's go back and see.

First thing was, you were supporting this baseless comment (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=69388432#post69388 432), by defending it (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=69388932#post69388 932).

Second thing, compare these:

just so you know how epically off base you are i went out with a police dispatcher for years and spent a good amount of time around cops at the station, and my dad does training with the state troopers and police.
you must be white.

besides maybe avoiding a ticket or arrest how is being respectful on a personal level important?
:lol:

I don't know buddy, why don't you tell me since you've interacted with police "on a personal level".

[loveisdead]

Lotta people throwing around words like "retarded" and "stupid" for no good reason.

[open mind]

Did I put words in your mouth? Really? I'm pretty sure you typed them yourself. Let's go back and see. First thing was, you were supporting this retarded comment (http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?p=69388432#post69388 432), by defending it. Second thing, compare these:



:lol:

I don't know buddy, why don't you tell me since you've interacted with police "on a personal level".

yeah, if you don't see how you put words in my mouth here you're a bigger idiot then i thought.......which i didn't think was possible since i already thought you were dumber then a bag of hammers.

i guess someone here has trouble telling the difference between a statement and a question.

[Sean Rizzo]

Lotta people throwing around words like "retarded" and "stupid" for no good reason.
Fixed.

[loveisdead]

Fixed.

What did you fix?

[Sean Rizzo]

What did you fix?
A poor choice of words on my part. Although I would say retarded was appropriate when it's not taken with the connotation of mentally disabled. The verb retard means to inhibit or hinder. Also note that I was referring to the comment being retarded, not the poster.

[schaft]

All you morons who have been defending this girl can suck it. She apologized.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/96685729.html

Kelly says Angel wanted to apologize directly to the officer and "the officer was good enough to meet with her and accept her apology." Sources tell KOMO News the officer then gave a lecture to the woman about not putting hands on police officers.

Also present at the meeting were Rich O'Neill, President of the Seattle Police Officer's Guild, Deputy Chief Nick Metz and Rev. Reggie Witherspoon, Pastor of Mount Calvary Christian Center.

"(Walsh) did not have to do this," said Interim Seattle Police Chief John Diaz. "But he felt it was an important first step in the beginning of the healing process. I want to personally thank Officer Walsh for his willingness to participate in this dialogue in what has been, undoubtedly, a very stressful period. I would also like to thank Angel. I think her willingness to reach out to Officer Walsh shows bravery and maturity."

Boom. Roasted.

[loveisdead]

All you morons who have been defending this girl can suck it. She apologized.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/96685729.html



Boom. Roasted.
We apologized for dropping an atom bomb on Japan. guess that makes pearl harbor okay.

[bung]

We apologized for dropping an atom bomb on Japan. guess that makes pearl harbor okay.

I'm still trying to figure out how you could possibly think this a compelling analogy.

Who is the United States here, who is Japan, what is dropping an atom bomb supposed to refer to, and what the hell is Pearl Harbor supposed to symbolize?

If the woman was Japan apologizing for Pearl Harbor, and the cop was the United States that dropped an atom bomb, who subsequently lectured Japan not to attack other nations, then your analogy might, possibly, make a lick of sense.

[loveisdead]

I'm still trying to figure out you could possibly think this a compelling analogy.

Who is the United States here, who is Japan, what is dropping an atom bomb supposed to refer to, and what the hell is Pearl Harbor supposed to symbolize?
My point was that just because one party apologizes to the other, it doesn't automatically justify that party's actions.

[bung]

My point was that just because one party apologizes to the other, it doesn't automatically justify that party's actions.

Probably should have picked a better analogy, then.

It does mean, however, that Party A recognizes that their actions directly resulted in Party B's actions. And it means that Party A thinks that Party B's actions were not so out of line as to require an apology from Party B. And it means that Party A recognizes that the situation was entirely their fault, hence the apology.

[schaft]

Probably should have picked a better analogy, then.

It does mean, however, that Party A recognizes that their actions directly resulted in Party B's actions. And it means that Party A thinks that Party B's actions were not so out of line as to require an apology from Party B. And it means that Party A recognizes that the situation was entirely their fault, hence the apology.
I couldn't have phrased it better myself. Thanks, bung.